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  • Kirklees Model Boat Club: May 23, 2010
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Author Topic: Steam Boat Convention  (Read 14584 times)

Stan

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Steam Boat Convention
« on: January 16, 2010, 08:16:26 pm »

Kirklees Model Boat Club are to hold  their  first steam boat convention on Sunday 23  May at Wilton Park  Birstall. Valid paperwork for all steam plants must be produced on the day for insurance purposes. Further details will appear on Mayhem in the near future. Proposed  start time will be around 10 am. This event will be open to all clubs who wish to attend. Please contact S Reffin via Mayhem or by e-mail  via Kirklees Model Boat Club web site. :-)) :-)) :-)) :-))
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Re: Steam Boat Convention
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2010, 08:56:21 pm »

can i ask what do you mean by Valid paper work ?? as per MPBA ?

Peter
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Bunkerbarge

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Re: Steam Boat Convention
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2010, 10:37:55 pm »

Details of the requirements will be published once they are written up and agreed by the club.
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Re: Steam Boat Convention
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2010, 02:19:01 am »

the reason I ask is I would like to come but there is confusion at some meetings on what they want, as you know small boilers no longer req a certificate according to the EU but the MPBA still wants one, gas tanks req testing,and I have been asked for a certificate on a gas can as it was in the the boat.! it will stop disagreements on the day if you do publish.

Thanks

Peter
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Re: Steam Boat Convention
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2010, 03:37:32 am »

Peter, we fully intend publishing a set of procedures as soon as we can put them together and agree to them to enable as many as possible to join in. 

Very basically the current thinking is that the procedures will be based on the requirements of the "Blue Book" as published by:


Southern Federation of Model Engineering Societies
Midlands Federation of Model Engineering Societies
Northern Association of Model Engineers
The 7 1/4" Gauge Society Ltd.

and will probably manifest itself as a pressure gauge check against a certificated gauge and a steam test incorporating a safety valve test for boilers below 3 bar-litres.  There is no requirement at this time for gas tank tests.

There is a lot to think about to get it tied down and fair to all but original boiler test certificates may well be required to prove the boiler is a manufactured one as opposed to a home made one, which would require considerably more supporting certificates.  As soon as we've put something together that we feel is workable we will publish it here.

We would certainly look forward to seeing you and as many other enthusiasts as possible.


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Bunkerbarge

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Re: Steam Boat Convention
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2010, 12:51:06 am »

In order to help us get the Steam Convention off the ground and to enable as many modellers to join in as possible the Kirklees Club has put together the guidelines as per below.  As you can see the event will be run under Southern Federation of Model Engineering Societies rules which will allow a significant percentage of models to enter that fall below the 3 bar-litre limit and therefore do not have a current pressure test certificate, however proof of the original manufacture will be required.  It is currently hoped that on the day Steam Test Certificates will be available so as long as the models meet the requirements as per below they will be able to steam.

We would very much like to extend the invitation to join in to all steam enthusiasts around the country however we would appreciate it if anyone intending on bringing a model that they wish to steam that they send a PM to myself so that we can get a feel for what numbers we need to cater for.  

If anyone wishes to have thier models Steam Tested and Certified on the day then I would very much appreciate having as much information up front as possible to enable the process to be quick and efficient so please forward all details via PM to myself.  I am currently anticipating conducting Steam Tests between 10.00 am and midday and there will be no charge for the test and certificate.  

Required information will be the following:

Plant make and type
Boiler Capacity
Working Pressure
Serial number of the boiler
Owners Name

It should be remembered however that a Pressure Test Certificate, as opposed to a Steam Test Certificate will be required at any subsequent Model Power Boat Association meeting anyone might wish to attend elsewhere in the country.

Please note:

1) Any model that is not supported by current, dated certification including a serial number as required below will not be allowed to steam on the day.
2) Any model that is not fitted with a pressure gauge will not be allowed to steam.

Please feel free to ask any questions below, which we will try to answer as soon as possible, and please forward as much information via PM as you can prior to the event to make testing on the day quick and easy.




Kirklees Model Boat Club Steam Model Certification Requirements.


The Kirklees Model Boat Club is a member of The Southern Federation of Model Engineering Societies and as such the following requirements as laid down by the club are based on:

The Examination and Testing of Miniature Steam Boilers (Revised Edition 2008)


distributed by:

Midlands Federation of model Engineering Societies

Northern Association of Model Engineers

The 7 ¼” Gauge Society Ltd.

Southern Federation of Model Engineering Societies

This book is available through any of the above organisations should clarification or further reading be required.



The 3 bar-litre rule

The regulations state that any boiler below the 3 bar-litre limit are not required to be pressure tested however information will be required by the Kirklees Model Boat Club to substantiate any such exemption such as the capacity and the normal working pressure.  The capacity of the boiler is best determined by completely filling the boiler with water, ensuring that there is no air remaining inside, and then pouring the water out into a graduated vessel.  The capacity of the boiler is this volume of water expressed in litres.  The normal working pressure is the pressure at which the boiler would normally be operating at so for a boiler with a means of controlling the burner flame this is the pressure at which the flame turns down.  For a boiler with no means of controlling the burner this pressure is the pressure at which the safety valve lifts.  Pressure is to be quoted in bar and the working pressure must be marked on the boiler pressure gauge in red paint.

The boiler is then classified by multiplying the capacity by the normal working pressure i.e. a boiler with a capacity of 500ml which operates at a pressure of 45 psi is:

0.5 (Capacity in litres) x 3 (Pressure in bar) = 1.5 bar-litres




The boiler types to be considered in these requirements are as follows:


1) Manufactured boilers below the 3 bar-litre limit

Most model boat boilers fall within this category and therefore do not require a boiler pressure test certificate.  Proof however of the boilers origins will be required to ensure that the boiler was manufactured by a business registered to do so.  Consequently either the original manufacturer’s certification or a subsequent pressure test certificate by a recognised test facility will be required.


2) Home made boilers below the 3 bar-litre limit

Home made boilers below 3 bar-litres must be supported by the certificates issued during the build process.  This will normally consist of two or three certificates issued by a recognised classification society after examination at agreed stages of the build and culminating with a pressure test of 2 x normal working pressure.


3) Manufactured  boilers above the 3 bar-litre limit

Manufactured boilers above 3 bar-litres will be required to have valid, dated and numbered pressure test certificates.


4) Home made boilers above the 3 bar-litre limit.

Home made boilers above the 3 bar-litre limit must be supported by the certificates issued during the build process.  This will normally consist of two or three certificates issued by a recognised classification society after examination at agreed stages of the build and culminating with a pressure test of 2 x normal working pressure.


5) Steel boilers of any size and type construction

Steel boilers of any size will be required to have valid, dated and numbered certificates of manufacture and pressure test issues by a recognised manufacturer and testing facility.


Procedures

In addition to any requirements as stated above all boilers are to either undergo the following process or provide valid, dated and numbered certification to prove that the following have been completed by an alternative recognised means of testing.  A Steam Test Certificate is valid for fourteen months from the test.


1) The model pressure gauge will have to be removed and tested against a hydrostatic test kit, which will use a calibrated and certificated pressure gauge.  A red paint mark must be visible at the normal working pressure point.  

2) The pressure gauge will be replaced on the model and the boiler taken up to full pressure.  With the burner operating at full flame the safety valve will be observed in operation, ensuring that with the safety valve lifted the pressure in the boiler does not rise to a point above 10% of the normal working pressure.  During this process the remaining requirements of the Steam Test will be carried out, paying particular attention to the following:

a) There are no excessive leaks in evidence of either steam or water from the boiler or the plant.
b) All operating parts of the plant should be demonstrated as working in a safe manner and all moving parts should be demonstrated as being in good working order.  This includes such items as feed systems, whistles and other auxiliary components.
c) General condition of the plant bearing in mind materials used in construction and insulation and standards of workmanship throughout the plant.
d) There is a readily accessible means of shutting off the flame to the burner which may be a readily accessible valve on a gas fired plant or a means of removing the solid fuel quickly and easily in a solid fuel fired plant.  

3) After this process has been completed a certificate will be issued to the modeller for that particular plant in that particular model.  For this to be issued the original manufacturers identification code must be visible.


Facilities are to be made available at Kirklees Model Boat Club to cover the requirements of the Steam Test and calibration of the pressure gauges, which will also be available for such events as the Steam Convention.  Club members will be able to obtain certification throughout the year and visitors to the club will be able to obtain Steam Test Certificates on the day.

Bearing in mind the available facilities, experience and expertise at the club pressure testing of boilers will not be available so any boiler that does not meet the requirements of the 3 bar-litre rule must be supported by pressure test certificates issued by an accredited and recognised organisation.

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HS93 (RIP)

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Re: Steam Boat Convention
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2010, 01:17:51 am »

you will be ruling out a lot of people who run the likes of the low volume plants SVS etc and also mamod a lot of the high volume German plants because they don't have a pressure gauge or have a serial number etc you have just frightend a lot of new comers away and other's WHO don't want hastel

Peter
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Re: Steam Boat Convention
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2010, 01:31:12 am »

Have I missed where you have to have your own Insurance ?

Peter
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Re: Steam Boat Convention
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2010, 03:12:30 am »

If I had a chance to get out of my shop and lets say travel to said event with a steam boat in tow, what kind of hoops would I have to jump through to be aloud to operate this model at this event. My guess would be the same hoops as everyone else right? My only other concern would be the radio equipment. I'm not sure if its the same used over there or not?
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Bunkerbarge

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Re: Steam Boat Convention
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2010, 03:23:09 am »

In answer to the first couple of points,

1) The Southern Federation regulations state that the Steam Test should include a demonstration of lifting the safety valve during which the pressure must not rise by more than 10% on full flame.  You cannot determine that if you do not have a pressure gauge.  I will however follow up on this and see if there is any leeway.

2) As long as all the certification and requirements as laid out above are met you are covered by the Kirklees club insurance for any Kirklees organised events, including weekly meetings and events at any other club whose insurers accept the 'Blue Book' regulations.

3) Nick we'd love to see you there and, as I think all your boilers would fall below the 3 bar-litre limit all you would need to do was comply with the Steam Test requirements and you would be up and running in ten minutes.  If you have a larger boiler than the 3 bar-litre limit and you arrived with a Pressure Test Certificate then we could still do a Steam Test and have you up and running in ten minutes.

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MONAHAN STEAM MODELS

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Re: Steam Boat Convention
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2010, 04:00:42 am »

Okay, thanks for clarifying that BB.  :-))

I had a feeling that would be the case but I just wanted to make sure. If I can break away from the mad house over here for long enough, then I will seriously consider attending this event. I would do so strictly as a participant and not as a commercial trader since this would be a brief vacation for me. I will need to look into the radio equipment and find out if it will comply with regulations over there.
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HS93 (RIP)

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Re: Steam Boat Convention
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2010, 04:08:50 am »

If I had a chance to get out of my shop and lets say travel to said event with a steam boat in tow, what kind of hoops would I have to jump through to be aloud to operate this model at this event. My guess would be the same hoops as everyone else right? My only other concern would be the radio equipment. I'm not sure if its the same used over there or not?

ill lend you a decent 2.4ghz set,and anything else you need.

Peter
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Re: Steam Boat Convention
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2010, 04:22:21 am »

Thanks Peter. That's very kind of you. :-))
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oldiron

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Re: Steam Boat Convention
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2010, 11:16:30 am »



In answer to the first couple of points,

1) The Southern Federation regulations state that the Steam Test should include a demonstration of lifting the safety valve during which the pressure must not rise by more than 10% on full flame.  You cannot determine that if you do not have a pressure gauge.  I will however follow up on this and see if there is any leeway.

2) As long as all the certification and requirements as laid out above are met you are covered by the Kirklees club insurance for the event only.

3) Nick we'd love to see you there and, as I think all your boilers would fall below the 3 bar-litre limit all you would need to do was comply with the Steam Test requirements and you would be up and running in ten minutes.  If you have a larger boiler than the 3 bar-litre limit and you arrived with a Pressure Test Certificate then we could still do a Steam Test and have you up and running in ten minutes.



  Bunkerbarge:

 Just curious, but on this side of the big pond, be it the US or Canada, we don't have inspections, by anybody, at various stages of our boiler builds. Unless a boiler is big enough to come under state (US) or provincial (Canada) regulations ( 7HP in Ontario), the governing bodies aren't interested in you. In Ontario copper boilers aren't even recognized by governing authorities. Hence, unless you have a large steel boiler there won't be any paper trail or serial number on the boiler. Local clubs usually have some sort of certification that includes an annual, and new boiler, hydro test and a steam test, however, most don't do anything during the construction stages. In the US, the state regulations vary from state to state, but generally follow the same path.
 Question is, under those circumstances, how does someone, such as Nick, still meet your certification with no serial number and no build certificates?
 As an example, I have a boiler built by Swindon Boiler Works for a 7 1/4 gauge King. As under British regs, the boiler is certificated and stamped with a serial number. Neither is recognized here. It is big enough to come under the 7 HP size, but its a copper boiler and our government regulating authority doesn't have regs for copper boilers, so it becomes transparent to them.

John
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Re: Steam Boat Convention
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2010, 12:08:15 pm »

ill lend you a decent 2.4ghz set,and anything else you need.

Peter

I think that is the easiest way Nick, we will sort you out with a radio somehow which saves having to bring it over.  If Peter, as he suggests, can kindly lend you a 2.4 set you are sorted.

I sincerely hope that you can make it.
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Bunkerbarge

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Re: Steam Boat Convention
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2010, 12:16:16 pm »

Oldiron, As per your example, if someone produced a boiler than had been home made it must be supported by a certificate to verify that it has been inspected during it's construction.  If this is not available then we could not accept it.

If the boiler is a manufactured one, below 3 bar-litres then I would expect it to have it's original Pressure Test Certificate to prove it's manufacture, so we would do a Steam Test and be OK.

If it does not have an original Pressure Test Certificate then we would have to arrange for a Pressure Test to be done in the UK at which time a serial number would be scribed on the boiler.

If the boiler is above the 3 bar-litre limit then it has to have a valid, dated and numbered Pressure Test Certificate.
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Re: Steam Boat Convention
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2010, 01:10:05 pm »

So to re ask Peters question, what about the Mamod and Wilesco brigade??

  Regards  Ian.
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Bunkerbarge

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Re: Steam Boat Convention
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2010, 03:42:38 pm »

So to re ask Peters question, what about the Mamod and Wilesco brigade??

  Regards  Ian.

I answered the question in reply number nine.  I will let you know as soon as I know anything more.
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Circlip

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Re: Steam Boat Convention
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2010, 04:12:04 pm »

 

"you will be ruling out a lot of people who run the likes of the low volume plants SVS etc and also mamod a lot of the high volume German plants because they don't have a pressure gauge or have a serial number etc you have just frightend a lot of new comers away and other's WHO don't want hastel"



Apologies, I didn't read the posting properly, Peter didn't actually ASK, he made a statement. I WILL therefore await clarification.

  Regards  Ian.
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Re: Steam Boat Convention
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2010, 05:51:11 pm »


  Bunkerbarge:

 Just curious, but on this side of the big pond, be it the US or Canada, we don't have inspections, by anybody, at various stages of our boiler builds. Unless a boiler is big enough to come under state (US) or provincial (Canada) regulations ( 7HP in Ontario), the governing bodies aren't interested in you. In Ontario copper boilers aren't even recognized by governing authorities. Hence, unless you have a large steel boiler there won't be any paper trail or serial number on the boiler. Local clubs usually have some sort of certification that includes an annual, and new boiler, hydro test and a steam test, however, most don't do anything during the construction stages. In the US, the state regulations vary from state to state, but generally follow the same path.
 Question is, under those circumstances, how does someone, such as Nick, still meet your certification with no serial number and no build certificates?
 As an example, I have a boiler built by Swindon Boiler Works for a 7 1/4 gauge King. As under British regs, the boiler is certificated and stamped with a serial number. Neither is recognized here. It is big enough to come under the 7 HP size, but its a copper boiler and our government regulating authority doesn't have regs for copper boilers, so it becomes transparent to them.

John

Oldiron,

Although the regulations aren't as strict in the US as they are in the UK regarding model boilers, we still manufacture our boilers in accordance to the UK and Australian codes since we trade with all countries. As it's written on our website, all of our boilers are serial numbered, pressure tested and issued a test certificate. The design and construction of our boilers surpasses what's called for in the UK codes. My original question to BB was more to do with insurance or anything else I may encounter being an outsider bringing a steam model to this show. I'm also very familiar with the codes and regulations for full size steam equipment since we own and operate many large boilers up to 75Hp on a weekly sometimes daily basis. I am responsible for testing these boilers as well.
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Re: Steam Boat Convention
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2010, 06:12:17 pm »

Oldiron,

Although the regulations aren't as strict in the US as they are in the UK regarding model boilers, we still manufacture our boilers in accordance to the UK and Australian codes since we trade with all countries. As it's written on our website, all of our boilers are serial numbered, pressure tested and issued a test certificate. The design and construction of our boilers surpasses what's called for in the UK codes. My original question to BB was more to do with insurance or anything else I may encounter being an outsider bringing a steam model to this show. I'm also very familiar with the codes and regulations for full size steam equipment since we own and operate many large boilers up to 75Hp on a weekly sometimes daily basis. I am responsible for testing these boilers as well.

  I understand your situation better. I do railway locos in live steam, run traction engines, and steam boats (all full size) and I do live steam in the typical scales. Just going between Canadian provincial borders and across the US/Canadian border I've run into differences in both qualification and regulation for running these items. The UK is much stricter than we are. I didn't want to see you get stuck in a spot with the tighter regs.

  John
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Re: Steam Boat Convention
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2010, 06:27:42 pm »

Thanks Oldiron,

I didn't want any surprises also. I knew our boilers were going to be okay. I just wasn't sure about everything else. Here's a picture of one of our big steam toys. The second picture is our crew of hooligans. The third is another one of our traction engines. The fourth and fifth pictures is our stern wheeler sailing down the Hudson River when we shipped it over land from California to New York. As you can see, we are up to our eyeballs in steam stuff.  O0
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Re: Steam Boat Convention
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2010, 07:18:58 pm »

Thanks Oldiron,

I didn't want any surprises also. I knew our boilers were going to be okay. I just wasn't sure about everything else. Here's a picture of one of our big steam toys. The second picture is our crew of hooligans. The third is another one of our traction engines. The fourth and fifth pictures is our stern wheeler sailing down the Hudson River when we shipped it over land from California to New York. As you can see, we are up to our eyeballs in steam stuff.  O0

  Great pics. Next time I'm west I'll have to look your bunch up. I like the Case.
 
John
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Re: Steam Boat Convention
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2010, 09:30:04 pm »

I hate to interrupt gents but can we please keep this about the Kirklees Model Boat Club Steam Convention?
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Bunkerbarge

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Re: Steam Boat Convention
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2010, 07:32:09 pm »

After recieving feedback from a number of sources I can now update the club requirements to take into account the following:

1) Small boilers of the Mamod and Wilesco type do not need to be fitted with pressure gauges however they will still need to be put through a steam test.

2) All certification must be related to a specific boiler.  Identification numbers would be the easiest way to achieve this however any method the owner may have in place to directly relate the certificate to the boiler in question would be considered.  Any certificate that cannot be specifically linked to the boiler it relates to will not be considered as suitable.

I will modify the club requirements as written above to take these points into consideration and repost them.

Please feel free to ask any further questions that I would be more than happy to follow up.
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