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Author Topic: OOYAH a Flash steamer.  (Read 22952 times)

ooyah/2

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OOYAH a Flash steamer.
« on: June 21, 2010, 05:54:10 pm »

Hi,
Having just signed up I discover that there has been some members seeking info on my Flash steamer that was featured in MODEL BOATS in 2005.
Although the boat is radio controlled it is nothing like the control that "flashtwo" has on his boat mine only has steering and stop.
Since writing the article for Model Boats a new engine and coil has been made,
The old set up had 22ft of 316 x .25" o.d. stainless steel tubing with 2 burners and the engine was 3/4" bore x 3/4" stroke.
The new set up has 30ft of .25" o.d. tubing with 3 burners and the engine is 1.125" bore x 3/4" stroke.
Both of the engines are Uniflow Poppet Valve engines all copied with his permission and help from R. Kirtley of the 120 mph Hydro.
The boat at present is now doing about 40 mph.
Copies of the Model boat article are available if any one is interested send me your e-mail address and I will forward it to you.

Pictures of OOYAH can be seen on my club web site  (www.glasgowrichmondmbc.co.uk ) and I can post some pics of the engine build if required.
My name is George Thomson ( retired design engineer )
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benjaml1

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Re: OOYAH a Flash steamer.
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2010, 07:12:32 pm »

Thank you for sharing....  :-))
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kiwimodeller

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Re: OOYAH a Flash steamer.
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2010, 11:55:41 am »

One day George I will get brave enough to try something similar. The article was very interesting. I have several steam boats and still some spare engines but the thing that has put me off so far is the seeming difficulty of setting up and controlling the water pump and also the need to have a parrafin or petrol blowlamp scares me. I like the controllability of Flastwo's setup but do not have the computer nouse to duplicate it. I had ideas of a Butane/Propane burner and perhaps an electric waterpump controlled by a speedcontroller but apparently neither will perform well enough even for a scale speed set up. Any comments you could offer will be most welcome. Regards, Ian.
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SteamboatPhil

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Re: OOYAH a Flash steamer.
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2010, 11:39:30 am »

Argh, watch this space Ian, I am at present having a go on my new radio flash steamer at using a geared electric motor to drive (via a scotch crank)  a water pump (with a ESC), the burner burner will be petrol (but via pressure as per my other plants) as the idea is to get the water set up right first with a known constant heat source, then add a fuel pump, again via a geared electric motor, and have control over that as well. I'm not aiming for Bobs speed, but I should be able to get 40mph + from the set up. I'm also using a double acting slide valve engine (heres one I built earlier) and based on the performance I get on my straight runner (with boiler of course) I should (a very big should) get it to go.
Good to see you are still working on your plant George ( I use the flash coil I got from you as a demo in my lectures until I get around to putting it in a a boat  :-)))

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ooyah/2

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Re: OOYAH a Flash steamer.
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2010, 11:45:28 am »

Hi Phil.

How about some pics of the engine and what type of hull do you propose to use?
Size of coil and what size jet in burner?
George.
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ooyah/2

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Re: OOYAH a Flash steamer.
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2010, 07:27:48 pm »

Hi Ian,
Don't be put of experimenting with Flash Steam if that is the road you wish to go down.  You can also go the way of FLASHTWO and make a coil generator that doesn't produce massive amounts of pressure and very high temperatures, although he calls it Flash Steam he is only producing small amounts of low pressure steam, Flash Steam is the point at which water turns instantly to high pressure steam so you have to consider Stainless Steel for a coil, I use 316 stainless x.25" o/d other wise if you have too much heat it's easy to blow a copper coil, I know as I have done it.
A must for anybody contemplating high pressure steam is a book EXPERIMENTAL FLASH STEAM X BENSON AND RAYMAN, in this book Chapt 7 page 96 is a small bit about a moderate performance plant using a slide valve engine and the whole plant is controlled by a screw  down ball valve on the water feed to the pump which was very effective.
My engine is a Uniflow Poppet valve engine of 1.125" bore x 3/4" stroke with 30 ft of 316 Stainless tube x .25" o/d with 3- burners each with .025 " dia jets using 4/1 paraffin to petrol
and is a copy of R Kirtleys 120 mph hydro engine Bob has been a great help over the years in my efforts on flash steam so if I can pass on info that I have gleaned from him I will be only too happy.
As I have tried to send pics with my last post to you and lost all my blethers as well I will send this and post pics later.
George.
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benjaml1

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Re: OOYAH a Flash steamer.
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2010, 08:41:21 pm »

Hi, I'm interested in the swept volume/rpm on the pump compared to the engine ?
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ooyah/2

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Re: OOYAH a Flash steamer.
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2010, 09:49:54 pm »

Hi,
Not sure what pump you want the info on, is it the one in EXPERIMENTAL FLASH STEAM , or the pumps on my Flash steam engine.

George.
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benjaml1

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Re: OOYAH a Flash steamer.
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2010, 08:42:04 am »

The one/s on your flash steam engine....Thank you
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flashtwo

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Re: OOYAH a Flash steamer.
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2010, 09:53:52 am »

Hi,

I agree with George in that I would class my boiler as a monotube rather than flash steam, since the water isn't hitting red hot pipes and "exploding" into steam.

My plant happily cruises along at 7psi and a temperature of 125degC with the Stuart D10 ticking over at 200RPM. With an increase in feed supply, the pressure is at 21-25psi  and the D10 at 500RPM. The prop is a 4 blade, 5inch supplied by Propshop for the D10. Butane/propane gas consumption is 4g/min and typical runs are 45 mins although in theory the gas cylinder should give me 100mins or so. The ultimate boat is to be a Windermere launch, so the above performance will be more than adequate.

I've found the limiting factor is the fuel supply pressure due to the well known cooling of the cylinder, which is acceptable in the summer, but gives a much lower perfoamnce in the winter.

I'm using 4mm copper tube which is very easy to bend into the coil, taking less than an hour to make including the end fittings.

As you may have also seen that I'm experimenting with steam jet propulsion. Like George I have blown a copper tube under high pressure and temperature conditions (no bang it justs stops working) and have had steam temps of 750degC and pressures up to 300psi; the steam jet engine would certainly benefit from using stainless tube. The steam jet boat would certainly be using flash steam in its true sense. The theorectical problems of jet propulsion in general are being discussed under the steam jet boat thread.

I will be updating the "Flash Steam control" soon with the latest experimental developments.


Ian
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kiwimodeller

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Re: OOYAH a Flash steamer.
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2010, 11:40:17 am »

Thanks for all the encouragement guys, I will get there one day. I am not aiming to break records but it would be good to play with an alternative to the usual type of boilers. Sounds like I am really looking at Monotube boiler setup and that the Benson & Rayman book would be worth getting. If I remember correctly there was mention in earlier posts that the book was to be updated and re-published? I will do an Abe books search. Cheers, Ian.
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flashtwo

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Re: OOYAH a Flash steamer.
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2010, 01:07:43 pm »

Hi Ian,

Regarding the flash steam book it was only Alan Rayman himself that, perhaps half-jokingly, said that if the book was republished that I should bring it up to date with a section on control methods.

I will be writing an article for "Engineering in Miniature" now that Vital Byte will be back on the water with its new control system, which is a much neater package than the prototype.

Ian.
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steamboatmodel

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Re: OOYAH a Flash steamer.
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2010, 03:20:04 pm »

Hi Ian,

Regarding the flash steam book it was only Alan Rayman himself that, perhaps half-jokingly, said that if the book was republished that I should bring it up to date with a section on control methods.

I will be writing an article for "Engineering in Miniature" now that Vital Byte will be back on the water with its new control system, which is a much neater package than the prototype.

Ian.
Hi Ian,
Be sure to let us know when the article is published so we can track down a copy.
Regards,
Gerald.
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ooyah/2

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Re: OOYAH a Flash steamer.
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2010, 04:32:29 pm »

Hi Benjaml,

The pumps on my flash steamer are as follows

Water pump is 1/4" bore and the stroke is variable from 1/4" ----5/8"
Fuel pump is 3/16 bore and as it is linked to the water pump it pumps at the same speed.
The pumps are geared 6/1 from main shaft and the engine revs are between 10,000 --- 15,000.
The ball valves are 1/4" dia and have .015" lift

Temperature and pressure is unknown but I at one time blew a coil of 316 stainless steel x 1/4" o.d which has a max of 550 bar ( 8250 p.s.i.)
STEAMBOATPHIL  actually has show a pic of the repaired coil on a recent posting.

I hope this info is of help.
George.
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ooyah/2

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Re: OOYAH a Flash steamer.
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2010, 05:03:56 pm »

Hi FLASHTWO.

I do admire your efforts with the computerised controls, how I wish you were nearer to me in order that you could help me to resize my pics.I don't know much about using steam as a jet propulsion but would suspect that you will need bags of highly super heated stem.

One comment that I would make is that is that my engine theoretically uses the injected steam twice.
As the poppet valve starts to open at 5deg before T.D.C. and then closes after 45deg and for a further 100 deg uses the expansion of the steam to propel the main shaft round before exhausting and then the cycle starts and during the time that the valve is closed the back up pressure in the coil builds up for the next opening and fires in a blast of steam to drive the engine.
The point being that as you are producing steam through an open jet the steam is expanding before it starts to condense could you find a way to use the expansion to further and build up the pressure in the coil.

Keep up the experimenting I shall watch your progress and if I can be of any help don't hesitate to contact me.
George.
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benjaml1

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Re: OOYAH a Flash steamer.
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2010, 08:18:12 pm »

Hi Benjaml,

The pumps on my flash steamer are as follows

Water pump is 1/4" bore and the stroke is variable from 1/4" ----5/8"
Fuel pump is 3/16 bore and as it is linked to the water pump it pumps at the same speed.
The pumps are geared 6/1 from main shaft and the engine revs are between 10,000 --- 15,000.
The ball valves are 1/4" dia and have .015" lift

Temperature and pressure is unknown but I at one time blew a coil of 316 stainless steel x 1/4" o.d which has a max of 550 bar ( 8250 p.s.i.)
STEAMBOATPHIL  actually has show a pic of the repaired coil on a recent posting.

I hope this info is of help.
George.

Thank you George, I find this all fascinating ! Am I right in thinking this would have to be engineered to withstand & supply full line (tube) pressure ?? I would also note this rating is for "seamless" s/s of adequate wall thickness tube, which is of course temperature dependant (see Table 24—Elevated Temperature Factors).. I've taken the liberty to add some data below...

http://www.swagelok.com/downloads/webcatalogs/EN/MS-01-107.PDF
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MONAHAN STEAM MODELS

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Re: OOYAH a Flash steamer.
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2010, 10:46:54 pm »

This is a great topic. Thanks for posting it. I've personally wanted to play around with designing a flash steam plant for years now.

P.S. You may find this interesting or disturbing but, some colleagues and myself have been planning to build a small lightweight steam powered quadra-cycle later this summer just for fun and I've often thought about using some sort of flash steam boiler design to generate enough steam quickly enough for the small twin cylinder engine we may use on it. Everything is still really in the early stages of brain storming though.
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ooyah/2

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Re: OOYAH a Flash steamer.
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2010, 12:13:53 am »

Thank you George, I find this all fascinating ! Am I right in thinking this would have to be engineered to withstand & supply full line (tube) pressure ?? I would also note this rating is for "seamless" s/s of adequate wall thickness tube, which is of course temperature dependant (see Table 24—Elevated Temperature Factors).. I've taken the liberty to add some data below...

http://www.swagelok.com/downloads/webcatalogs/EN/MS-01-107.PDF
One of the problems with most people when they think about flash steam is to try and calculate all the different possibilities some of which I think are impossible to do and you can get bogged down in theory rather than cutting metal..
When I started out I went to the Mitchell Library in Glasgow which has the finest ref section in Europe and hunted out all the articles that were highlighted in EXPERIMENTAL FLASH STEAM and could be found in back copies of M.E..
Eventually I arrived at R.KIrtley's write up on his boat PISCIS 11 which at that time was doing 100 mph. all my work has been empirical and following what Bob and others before him had accomplished, All the varying metals that had been used were listed so I followed on their footsteps.
Some of the metals on my first engine were not available in small quantities so I had to improvise.
For instance I tried all sorts of materials to make the Poppet valve and seat, I found that Silver Steel oil hardened worked reasonably well but eventually softened as the high temperatures hit it and I had to constantly make new valves and seats.
When I made the new bigger bore engine I used Bob's method of machining the valve and the seat from the exhaust valve of a Cummins Diesal Engine and to date , as I and Bob has found it has been totally satisfactory.
I have never tried to calculate the steam pressure in the Stainless Steel coil I only know that Bob has used this for years and if it's O.K. for 120 mph it's O.K. for me.
It really is hard enough to get the steam plant working but the challenge was just too much for me to ignore and as when I was in business I never had much opportunity to do machining, only design work, so this was the challenge to make some thing and make it work.
Flash Steam is the most infuriating subject and there have been many break downs and repairs, it is not for the feint hearted but when you here that roar of the burners and the boat takes of it's worth it.
I have loads of pics but have not found out how to resize them so if you are interested have a look on my club web site and you will see some of the pics of the new engine  ( www.glasgowrichmondmbc.co.uk )
George.





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ooyah/2

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Re: OOYAH a Flash steamer.
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2010, 12:18:07 am »

This is a great topic. Thanks for posting it. I've personally wanted to play around with designing a flash steam plant for years now.

P.S. You may find this interesting or disturbing but, some colleagues and myself have been planning to build a small lightweight steam powered quadra-cycle later this summer just for fun and I've often thought about using some sort of flash steam boiler design to generate enough steam quickly enough for the small twin cylinder engine we may use on it. Everything is still really in the early stages of brain storming though.

Great to hear from you GO TO IT If I can be of any help please get in touch, did you know that there already has been a flash steam powered bicycle,
it would certainly keep your legs worm in the winter.
George.
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MONAHAN STEAM MODELS

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Re: OOYAH a Flash steamer.
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2010, 12:32:50 am »

I've just looked at the photos posted on your clubs website of OOYAH and all I have to say is beautiful work!  :-)) The engines is simply impressive looking to say the absolute very least. The flash boiler unit and well thought out burner configuration is brilliant!
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flashtwo

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Re: OOYAH a Flash steamer.
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2010, 08:32:02 am »

Hi George,

It was because of the problems associated with the engines, under true flash steaming condititions, that I decided to get rid of the engine altogether and experiment with a pure jet.

Considering the expansive nature of steam (1600:1), I reasoned that there would tremendous power available from its momentum/kinetic energy by converting its pressure into velocity via a nozzle. The flash boiler is just the right steam generator to use because of its simplicity, fast response, lightness and above all safety.

I shall be explaining the fundamental physics involved under the steam jet engine thread.

Ian.
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SteamboatPhil

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Re: OOYAH a Flash steamer.
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2010, 01:51:36 am »




OK, let me just have a little bit now chaps, flash steam, ok we have the principle, one of the most frequent questions I am asked is based on high speed model bots ( model boat forum cos boats is best etc etc) As some of you will will  be aware I run high speed straight running  boats, and am proud to say that Alan Rayman and John Benson (them wot rote the book on Experimental Flash Steam, and Alan's book on "High Speed Marine Steam") are very much with us and still members of my club (along with flash2 I might add)
Anyway back to the plot, as Ian has said (Flash2) you can run flash steam as low as 20 psi, now what are you trying to get at...Bob K is going for the fastest speed for a flash steamer (which he has done by the way) round the pole chaps not on the straight....... George (must meet up) has produced a uniflow radio flash boat.
So I'm going to build (well have a few bits built) a radio flash steam boat based on a slide valve engine's AA Raymans book (which is a copy of my Grandads engine's really Alan will tell you)
So, Georges boat  not sure about mine with electric pumps......   
But then its all "Experimental Flash Steam" and High Speed Marine Steam"
And Alan and John (remember them and the bookstall available from Tee publising------them that do EIM mag)
So flash steam is not all out, I have a demo oscillating engine running from flash steam  (will be shown at the Midlands ME Exhibition this year)
So you can do anything from Ian's 20psi to Bobs   gwad know what-------- my V4 single acting works on about 500psi at 750c
Pressure is one thing, but temp is very important----but the really important thing to remember is valve timing and (pay attention now)----propellers
Get that wrong-----well your stuffed.......

And just Incas you lot think I'm biased, Alan Rayman and John Benson are members of my club (as is flash2) well just thought I would remind you, and I do know members of EIM magazine although I receive no monetary contributions from them
Thats the legal bit over

All spelling misstakes are deliberate by the way



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kiwimodeller

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Re: OOYAH a Flash steamer.
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2010, 12:14:48 pm »

Phil, Mr Google found the Tee Publishing website for me no problem. How serious were you about a re-write or updated edition of the book? Do I wait for the new edition? Thanks, Ian.
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ooyah/2

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Re: OOYAH a Flash steamer.
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2010, 12:08:01 am »

Hi Phil,
As a mater of interest what size of props do you use on your straight runners ?
Are they submerged or surface drives?
What speeds are you allowed with your straight runners?
What type of boat do you run at 500psi and at 750 C?
Also I am interested in how you measure the mentioned figures as I have never been brave enough to put a gauge on my Flash Steam plant.
I once put a 150 psi gauge on the fuel line and blew it apart.
As I am used to FLASH BANG instant steam how long does it take to raise steam in your oscillator?

Regards
George.

OK, let me just have a little bit now chaps, flash steam, ok we have the principle, one of the most frequent questions I am asked is based on high speed model bots ( model boat forum cos boats is best etc etc) As some of you will will  be aware I run high speed straight running  boats, and am proud to say that Alan Rayman and John Benson (them wot rote the book on Experimental Flash Steam, and Alan's book on "High Speed Marine Steam") are very much with us and still members of my club (along with flash2 I might add)
Anyway back to the plot, as Ian has said (Flash2) you can run flash steam as low as 20 psi, now what are you trying to get at...Bob K is going for the fastest speed for a flash steamer (which he has done by the way) round the pole chaps not on the straight....... George (must meet up) has produced a uniflow radio flash boat.
So I'm going to build (well have a few bits built) a radio flash steam boat based on a slide valve engine's AA Raymans book (which is a copy of my Grandads engine's really Alan will tell you)
So, Georges boat  not sure about mine with electric pumps......   
But then its all "Experimental Flash Steam" and High Speed Marine Steam"
And Alan and John (remember them and the bookstall available from Tee publising------them that do EIM mag)
So flash steam is not all out, I have a demo oscillating engine running from flash steam  (will be shown at the Midlands ME Exhibition this year)
So you can do anything from Ian's 20psi to Bobs   gwad know what-------- my V4 single acting works on about 500psi at 750c
Pressure is one thing, but temp is very important----but the really important thing to remember is valve timing and (pay attention now)----propellers
Get that wrong-----well your stuffed.......

And just Incas you lot think I'm biased, Alan Rayman and John Benson are members of my club (as is flash2) well just thought I would remind you, and I do know members of EIM magazine although I receive no monetary contributions from them
Thats the legal bit over

All spelling misstakes are deliberate by the way




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SteamboatPhil

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Re: OOYAH a Flash steamer.
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2010, 11:40:00 am »

On most of them (although there is a slight design difference) they are all submerge drive and have a 3 1/2 dia  x 8in pitch 2 bladed.
The max speed we are allowed with the straight runners is 12 mph, although I have 2 that I just can't get to run that slow !!!!
On avarage they are doing about 15mph, not bad for a metre long boat, and be fair some silly s*d has to catch the damn thing.
Now if I run for more than the normal 15mins (well they are only 60 yard course lengths) and every thing starts to get really warm, the
engine really starts to behave, and the last time this happened it was timed at 22mph-----and i was the silly s*d that caught it  %%

I have a v4 piston valve plant running on flash steam, measuring the temp was ok, but pressure was done using a whopping great 0-2000 PSI
gauge that my dad got hold of (although not calibrated it game a idea at the time) Not tried it since beacause the pipe work and addaptors
 I had to make was a nightmere. And now I've changed the, control valve and most of the other bits, so my gizzmo no longer fits.

I will post some pics of the pland and the hull (which is 5ft long and weighs about 35lbs.
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