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Author Topic: HMS Macedonian  (Read 16953 times)

JerryTodd

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HMS Macedonian
« on: December 16, 2011, 09:06:49 PM »

click pics for a larger image

I've set my Constellation aside for a bit to get two other hulls started.


One is a 1:20th scale model of the Baltimore Clipper recreation Pride of Baltimore, a boat I work on the construction of in 1976, and crewed aboard in 1981.


The other hull, and the subject of this post, is the Lively class frigate Macedonian.


Macedonian was first set sail in 1810, engaged and was captured by the US frigate United States in October of 1812.  She was taken into US service and served as the USF, then USS Macedonian until she was broken up in 1828 and replaced with a new ship of the same name.  Today, he figurehead of Alexander the Great is all that remains.


This model is in 1:36th scale just like my Constellation and will also be a working model.  It's being constructed of 1/8" x 3/8" pine strips over plywood forms. The hull will get a layer of 3oz cloth outside and a coat of polyester resin inside.  Details like moldings, the wale, etc, will be applied to the hull after it's glassed.  Inside will get deck clamps, beams, etc as need to support the control gear.  It will also be modeled from the gun deck up with guns, furnishings, etc.

You'll notice blue masking tape on the edges of the forms - that's so the planking won't be glued to them as they are to be removed leaving the wooden shell of a hull.

laying out the forms.
Planking begins - 11/20/2011.
Counter and transom planked up.
Planking at the counter.
Template for stem pieces.
Fitting the stem pieces.
Planking continues.
The bow closed up on 12/14

That's where it is at the moment.  It's been about three weeks since planking began and I hope to have that completed this weekend.  She'll then get a few rounds of wood filler and sanding.  If I'm really lucky, she'll get resin inside the hull as well.

There's much more at my site for the project including a history of the ship, and more photos.
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dlancast

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Re: HMS Macedonian
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2011, 09:54:17 PM »

Hi Jerry,

You have done a wonderful job and inspiration for me.  thanks for sharing and you have a great website.  I was curious how those copper plates would work in the water.  My frigate will be a static display and I chose not to show nail heads on the plates as at the scale I am working, you would not see it.  Kudos to you!

Dennis
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JerryTodd

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Re: HMS Macedonian
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2011, 05:05:04 AM »

I've been following your Ajax build - I watch all the 1780's-1820's period warship builds I find - especially frigates - to see the different approaches folks take with these types of ships.  They're all very helpful in interpreting some not so clear parts of the plans - especially the fellas doing admiralty type models.  There's a build of the frigate Naiad on Model Ship World that just leaves me speechless.

Mac will get a slightly different treatment for her bottom than Constellation did.  Instead of actual copper tape, I'm going to plate the bottom with aluminum cut from aluminum duct tape and then paint it with Krylon metallic copper paint.

Top: Copper tape
Underneath: aluminum tape partially painted copper.
left center: A bit of the painted part cut to size.


This is a LOT cheaper and should be just as impressive on a model this size - though I might put a zinc block on her somewhere just for electrolysis sake.
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JerryTodd

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Re: HMS Macedonian
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2011, 03:37:18 AM »

Well, the planking is done, one month after starting the first plank, I put on the last ones.  Tonight, I even yanked out all but 4 of the forms.

Every other form pulled out

  Looking into the transom

  Looking into the bows

  Plenty of space for running gear.



Quartering view
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JerryTodd

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Re: HMS Macedonian
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2011, 03:41:16 PM »

Since last post the keel, stern post, and stem pieces have been attached, and a couple of coats of water putty applied.  The transom brace was replaced with an internal one and the transom top trimmed to shape.  I also made a stand to help keep her from rolling around while I work on her.  The inside of the hull was "painted" with thinned glue to get into the nooks and reenforce the planking.  This Christmas day she is ready for resin inside, and glass outside - I just need some glass cloth.

Last section of keel and sternpost going on.


On her new stand.


No more Noah's Ark remarks - now she looks like Barbra Streisand.


Masilla Soluble en Agua!


A profile shot against the plan.


Puttying and Sanding


Transom trimmed.

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dlancast

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Re: HMS Macedonian
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2011, 03:59:01 PM »

Nice work Jerry, she is fairing out very well.  Huge!  Her draft is much deeper than my frigate model.  Do you intend on bolting on a false keel for sailing, or how will that work with this model?  Perhaps she can carry enough ballast in that deep hull to stand up to some wind?  She is going to be impressive and you are moving along nicely with the build.

Have a very Merry Christmas!

Regards,

Dennis
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JerryTodd

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Re: HMS Macedonian
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2011, 06:48:44 AM »

I slipped out to the shop this Christmas morning and found that ole Saint Nick had not put resin into the hull  {:-{

Ay any rate, I pulled all the forms out, rubbed a little sandpaper around, vacuumed the dust out and painted in a coat of resin.




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JerryTodd

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Re: HMS Macedonian
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2011, 06:08:37 PM »

To mark out the location of gunports, moldings, etc, I made a pattern by laying some plotter paper scrap on the hull, trimming it to shape, and marking the stations on it.  I then traced those items from the profile onto the pattern.  Those things up forward that are distorted in the profile image because of the curve of the bow, were projected down to the plan (top-down) view and their location measured from a nearby station line and that transferred to the pattern while it was on the hull.

Here's Mac with the pattern attached alongside the 1:20 Pride of Baltimore hull I'm also working on.

12-26-11

The markings on the pattern were transferred to the hull.  When it's glassed, these marks will be visible and guide me in cutting out gun ports, applying moldings, etc.

12-27-11

Here's Mac with the Constellation of the same 1:36 scale.  The 1854 sloop of war was about the same length as the USS United States which Macedonian engaged in August 1812, so this pic give some idea of the disparity in size between the two ships.

12-27-11

The ports and openings of the bow.

12-28-11

I measured the level of the gun deck and spar deck at each station from the plans I built the hull from.  Marking those levels on the building forms I removed from the hull, I measured the width of each deck at each station and marked those on more plotter paper creating a new plan view of the gun deck and spar deck accurate for the model.  The model will get deck beams at each station and this drawing will help ensure the hull is the correct dimension at each one.

12-28-11
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dlancast

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Re: HMS Macedonian
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2012, 02:50:33 PM »

The "Mac" is looking good Jerry.  I applaud your methods.    Did you use AutoCad for your plan work?

Regards,

Dennis
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JerryTodd

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Re: HMS Macedonian
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2012, 03:52:43 PM »

I had the 1:48 scale drawing from the Smithsonian scanned.  I re-sized it using Paint Shop Pro version 7 - which is a somewhat iffy affair.  I cut a 10 foot section of the scale in the drawing and ask PSP to resize it to 3.43 inches - 10 foot in 1:35 scale.  PSP shows what percentage that change would be and I applied that percentage to the full drawing.  When ever I printed it though, it came out precisely at 1:36 scale (1 inch = 3feet).  I played with it trying to get it accurate, but it kept coming back to 1:36 - so I gave up and went with that.  My Constellation is 1:36, now Mac is too.

PSP has a "layer" feature, which is akin to laying transparencies over your drawing and tracing the parts you want on separate layers.  I used this feature to crate the patterns for the stations/forms.  A drawing this size pushes the limits of the software and memory.  I eventually reduced the image from 400 dpi to 150 dpi to make it smaller in memory while retaining it's physical size.  I also used the layers feature to make patterns for the keel and transom forms.

In planning my internal framing, I'm using the widths taken from the forms used in building the hull, and the heights taken from the profile.  In that way I'm creating a plan view that matches the model.  For this I am using good old-fashioned pencil and paper drafting methods.

I can't say the model is 100% accurate to the plans as the plans carry some distortion from being scanned, then the scan was scanned, re-sized; and reprinted.  There's also some things that are a little off from one view to the other that may be distortion, and/or Chapelle's doing.  At any rate, the hull shape came out nicely without any but the most minor changes made to make things fit or run fair.  I'm happy with it.  :)
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JerryTodd

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Re: HMS Macedonian
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2012, 10:33:09 PM »

I cut out 6 of the forms to reinstall as frames.  All the clamps are from gluing up the bandsaw kerf after cutting out the interior of the form.  These fellows will be epoxied into the hull and false frames/timber heads will be installed between these at gun ports and other openings; ceiling planking will go inside, when done the hull will be scale thickness from the gun deck to the rail.  The flat portion at the bottom of these frames will support the equipment deck the running gear will be mounted on.




I also took the spar dimensions on page 132 of Gardiner's "Frigates of the Napoleonic Wars" and drew a spar plan in 1:96 scale.  I may pencil in Chapelle's 1818 dimensions just to see how the rig was Americanized  ;)


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JerryTodd

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Macedonian's Rig
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2012, 08:14:29 PM »

I added the 1818 spar dimensions to the drawing in blue pencil.  It's a very interesting comparison.

While the American spars are longer, the doublings are nearly twice the British standard so the rig comes out only a little taller.  Because the tops and heels of the top masts wind up lower in the American plan, the tops'l ride lower.  The t'gallant sails seem to have more hoist (taller) than their British counterparts.

The American gaff is slightly longer, but the boom is shorter.  The American cross jack is significantly longer than the British standard.

It's very very tempting to go with Macedonian's 1818 spar plan, the table gives dimensions for everything, including mast heads, yard arms, tops, and all the sails.  But I wonder what sails were aboard when repaired at sea by Decatur and what spars were later made to fit her British suit of sails?  Now I'm have to do an overlay of Chesapeake's rig to see the differences between the British, British redone by Americans, and a purely American 38 of the same size.  I have to say; seeing them overlaid on each other is very different than just looking at a table of dimensions.

It's a little hard to see the blue pencil of the 1818 spar dimensions.


I have more reading to do in Lee's The Masting and Rigging of English Ships of War 1625-1860 to try to nail down what would be correct for Macedonian before the first shot was fired between her and the United States
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JayDee

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Re: HMS Macedonian
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2012, 11:44:43 PM »


Hello Jerry,

Your models are getting better, year on year !!!
Fantastic job !!!!!.

John.  :-))  :-))  :-))
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Brooks

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Re: HMS Macedonian
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2012, 01:59:10 AM »

Very very nice, Jerry.

re spar dimensions - When I sailed aboard HMS Rose replica, the 1st Mate told me that their spars did not last longer than 5 years at sea. This was partly because they had to make replacements out of donated telephone poles, and the wood was not always the best (the ship was under-funded, eventually being sold to Hollywood partly because they could not generate enough schoolship income to keep up with maintenance). I would guess that wood was better quality in the 1800's  since it was probably all old growth with tight rings. But, I also guess that ships even then had to make do with whatever was on-hand at whatever port they entered for repairs. So, your spars, whichever source you end up using, will probably be accurate for some point in the ship's life...and since spars can carry away due to perils of the sea at any point in her career, I bet the spar plan was never perfect dockyard/per design for very long*smiles*.
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JerryTodd

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Re: HMS Macedonian
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2012, 12:00:37 AM »

Ugh - telephone poles?  What garbage those things are.

Macedonian was commissioned in June of 1810 and captured by United States in August of 1812 - She probably was carrying her original suit of spars and sails - and likely had her full allotment of spares. 

The draught of the Lively includes the lower masts and bowsprit - which very nearly match the 1818 masts, except for the foremast, which is depicted significantly shorter than both the 1818 and British standard.


The Lively draught scaled to 1:96 and laid on the spar plan.  The pencils show the heights of the masts according to the standard for a 38.

All the frames are in and trimmed to the top of the planking.  Two focs'l beams were drawn and cut a little high on the port side and had to be reset - no big deal, but "measure twice and cut once" works best if you actually do it.

Mac & Me
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JerryTodd

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Re: HMS Macedonian
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2012, 04:57:04 AM »

Is it possible winter is done!?

I took advantage of the 70+ temperature to glass the transom.  Hopefully it'll stay above the 50's to get the rest of the hull done.

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JerryTodd

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Re: HMS Macedonian
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2012, 07:49:58 PM »

With Mayhem down for a while, and my account here starting over from scratch I guess it's time to update Mac's status...

When last I posted, her transom and counter had been glassed.  Shortly after the rest of the hull was covered in 3oz cloth and polyester resin, sanded, resined again, etc.  Excess resin was poured into her bilges to fill up the tight nooks sealing them up and eliminating dark places where water could sit and cause mold and fungus to grow.

Pilot holes were drilled through the keel for the tubes that will support the ballast torpedo.  Macedonian will be able to ship the same ballast Constellation carries so I don't necessarily have to make another one right away.

Glass rough cut and laid on the hull.
Port side glassed.
Starboard side glassed.
Sanded and another coat of resin applied.
Bilge filled with excess resin.

Some work was also done on Constellation's stern, adding windows and decorations;

Pride got some deck beams and a dagger-board trunk installed for the removable fin keel she will get.
Deck beams fitted.
 Prop notch cut in stern post; pilot hole for prop shaft drilled; dagger board trunk, with plate that will become the fin, dry fitted.
Inside view of the trunk being dry fitted.

In the mean-time I've been helping a friend build a 14 foot skiff in my back yard

JerryTodd

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Re: HMS Macedonian
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2012, 03:34:31 AM »

I want to apply the wale with top and butt planking, so I cut a few and stuck 5 of them to the glassed hull with CA.  The planks are about 10mm wide, 152mm long, 5mm wide at the ends, and the widest point is about 51mm (1/3 the length) from one end.  This looks like it will work, so when I get the wales planked, I'll paint on a thin coat of resin to seal them up.


JerryTodd

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Re: HMS Macedonian
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2012, 02:41:37 PM »

A couple of days later, with some interesting temprature changes in the weather, and everything was still stuck on, so I proceeded to glue on more planks.  I have 10 more pieces to complete the starboard wale, but I've run out of CA and I have to cut more pieces.


JerryTodd

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Re: HMS Macedonian
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2012, 08:33:29 PM »

I completed the starboard wale a couple of weeks ago....


But I've been working on the Pride of Baltimore since then; the point being that it'll be easier to get a schooner sailing this season - we'll see.



I do intend to get going on Mac's portside wale so when my buddy with the skiff comes over next week and start mixing up epoxy, I can dip in and get a coat on the wales  ;)

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Re: HMS Macedonian
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2012, 10:18:16 PM »

Lovely piece of anchor-stock wale-work there, Jerry. Keep it coming!

Andy
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JerryTodd

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Re: HMS Macedonian
« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2012, 07:15:51 PM »

Mac's been on the shelf as I try to get http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=38123.0Pride ready to be displayed in Baltimore on the 22nd of July.


I did do a little research though...
Chapelle's drawing of Macedonian shows no detail of the transom and how it was decorated.  I was leaning toward a model of the Lacedaemonian which, besides the usual molding, had painted decorations otherwise, instead of the more ornate and carved decorations shown on the Lively drawing.  I don't know if the NMM or other sources in Britain have more precise information regarding Macedonian's ornamentation, and I doubt I could afford to get it if there was; , but I did find something in Gardiners's Frigates of the Napoleonic Wars.  He shows a drawing of proposed ornamentation for two Lively class frigates building at Plymouth that were launched and completed only weeks ahead of Macedonian; Nisus & Menelaus.



The level of decoration here is very similar to Trincomalee, not as ornate as the Lively drawing, but more so than the Lacedaemonian model shows.  Based on this, and my lack of any hard evidence on what Macedonian had, I designed a transom that I think is reasonable for my model of the ship, and keeps with with what her sisters were wearing at the time  :)

First off - there's a medallion, badge, or scene thematic to the ship's namesake at the top center of the transom.  Macedonian had an upper torso figurehead of a particular "Macedonian" - Alexander the Great (AtG) dressed in his battle armor.  So I went looking for AtG stuff.  

In searching for AtG symbolism the first thing I turned up was the " Vergina Sun" which is said to be the royal symbol of Phillip II and Alexander.  Although this symbol appears in a lot of Greek and Macedonian images, I don't think it was associated with Philip and his son until the 1970's - so I set that aside.


The next thing I found was a nice coin with Alexander's profile on one side and the ruler sitting on his throne on the reverse.  I really liked the throne image for my transom badge, until I realized after staring at it for a while, that is wasn't AtG but Zeus.


The coin did have a very nice cameo sort of profile of Alexander and I was going to use that until I remembered that Alexander came up in the cavalry and was a renowned horseman.  Being a cavalryman, though I wouldn't claim being a horseman, renowned or otherwise, I though an equestrian figure would be good.  There's several statues and paintings of Alexander on horseback and I opted for one with his horse (Bucephalus?) rearing slightly and Alex about to whack someone with a short-sword.


That settled, I had to figure out the carved vine-work.  The figurehead has some bindings of his chest armor that look like vines and leaves, so I took that to the upper vine-work aft.  For the lower vine-work I used laurel leaves, mainly cause I couldn't think of anything else.

In the center, just about the windows is usually something; a flower, or symbol of some sort.  Here I opted to use the Vergina Sun symbol.

So this is what I came up with.  I think it follows well with the style of the day considering the lack I data I have.


Here's a bad photo of it printed and taped to the model stern.


Of course, if anyone has any information on what Macedonian actually had on her transom - I'd love to see it.  :)

JerryTodd

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Re: HMS Macedonian
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2012, 04:36:31 AM »

I precut all the planks for the port-side wale and reshaped the transom somewhat to better fit the planned transom mentioned previously.

While planning to make the guns for the Pride of Baltimore I started looking into doing Macedonian's at the same time.
 Macedonian will require 28 long 18 pounders on carriages, 16 32 pounder carronades on slides, 2 12 pounders, and 2 9 pounders.  There's also 1 18 pounder carronade that I think was mounted in the launch.  That's 49 guns in all!
By comparison, Pride only needs 4 carriage guns and 2 swivels!

I plan to turn one of each of these tubes in wood and make a mold to cast them all in resin.


JerryTodd

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Re: HMS Macedonian
« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2012, 05:45:26 PM »

Haven't gotten much done on any of the models as I'm still looking for work and getting ready to move before they come and make me move.  Where I'm moving there's an attached garage that larger than my current shop, but it's full of stuff which is what's slowing things down - making room for me in the new place among all the "stuff."

Mark came to put glass on the bottom of his skiff (he's been busy too with job and family and hasn't gotten to work on the boat much over the summer), and I took the opportunity to put a coat of epoxy on Mac's completed starboard wale.  I have the pieces cut for the port wale and hope to get those on in time to snitch some epoxy from Mark when he comes to do the sides and transom of his skiff.  :)
pre-bending wale planks for the portside wale


I also cut out one of the gun ports.  The gun deck will be fully modeled, so the hull has to be framed and ceiling planked to get it to scale thickness.  The framing around the gunports intrudes into the hole to form a rabbet for the port lid to seat against, so I have to frame each port after it's cut out of the planking.  To keep the hull from possibly deforming as I cut the ports out, I'll frame them as I cut them.  All of it will be coated with epoxy before the ceiling planking goes on to protect it from moisture.
First gunport cut out


JerryTodd

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Re: HMS Macedonian
« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2012, 05:03:01 AM »

Mark came over and glass the sides of his skiff.  Having completed the port-side wale, I took advantage and got a coat of epoxy on.



Now it's time to start cutting out the gunports and framing them.




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