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[Les]

I'm considering my next model and doing some research before committing to it.

It's a scale model 57" long 15" beam drawing about 4 1/2" with quite full lines and should weigh about 40lbs to come down to its waterline, power through a single 3" diameter prop.

The original was steam powered so I would like the model to be the same but I'm unsure at which engine to use. I want to build it myself or at most use a set of machined castings.

I have a set of castings for the twin cylinder Marcher engine but it looks small to me. Would the larger Borderer engine be more suitable, if so at which bore, or should I go the whole hog and think about a Stuart Double 10V, or are there any other alternaives?

What size of boiler and burner would you recommend for the above set ups? It has to be a horizontal boiler to keep within the scale outline and even the height might preclude the Double 10V.

Any experiences or advice you have would be appreciated.

Les

[steam up]

This is my project so far:
52" length 16" beam 3" prop  Engine Borderer 5/8th bore
Still some work to do ,since the video was taken I have played around with the timing still some bling to finish.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LcUa43gneU&feature=youtu.be

[Les]

That's a very nice model. Love the woodwork.

It seems the Borderer might be a better option but have you had it running in a larger area and what sort of speed does it do? I'm going to be looking at a scale speed of 2.5 to 3 mph.

Many thanks for your interest.

Les

[steam up]

As I said the models not finished yet when I try it on the pond I will post a video.

[southsteyne2]

Hi Les pm research have a twin cylinder oscillating engine in kit form I have seen this engine run many times and completely impressed with its performance may help to check it out price was under $200
Cheers John

[flashtwo]

Hi,

I have a 72lb experimental boat, 5ft long with a Stuart D10 driving a 5inch prop marketed by Propshop as the one for a D10.

I know someone with a similar size boat (an Englishman tug) which has a D10 driving a 3 or 3.5inch prop; I think he is still working on getting the steam plant working effectively, so I haven't seen it run properly.

The D10 with the 5inch prop is running up to 700RPM (using a 250 sq.inch boiler) and it certainly churns the water.

The D10 may be oversized for your craft.

Ian

[Les]

Hi Ian
Thanks very much. That's useful information. I was thinking the D10 would be a little bit big and it would be "thirsty" for steam and then I'd need a bigger boiler than I can accommodate.

Borderer would seem to be coming out as the favourite at the moment.

Thanks

Les

[steam up]

I enjoyed making the Borderer I have high hopes that it will pull the boat through the water at a scale type speed.

[Les]

Hi John

Thanks for that link, I hadn't come across them before.

I don't fancy an ocillating engine. I don't really know why. Past experience, granted on smaller engines was that it is difficult to maintain the seal on the sliding surfaces between cylinder and valve faces. Excess spring pressure slows the motor and they cannot take decent pressures.

Can you or anybody else persuade me an ocillating engine would be suitable for my application. However, one benefit could be that it would be easier to machine on my lathe and milling machine. It's a Hobbymat MD65 and BFE mill although I do have access to an ML7.

I have reservations and as I said would prefer a vertical twin engine.

Many thanks though

Les

[Circlip]

You have the Marcher castings, why not build it, try it and then decide? If you then feel you need to go bigger, you should have a marketable engine to pay for a replacement.

  Regards  Ian.

[Les]

Hi steam up
I'm certainly favouring the Borderer at the moment. I'll see if there are any more comments by others and look more closely at this engine and at what boilers might be suitable. Mine will have to be horizontal beacause of the scale space requirements.

Again many thanks for the interest.

Les

[Les]

Hi Circlip
Fair comment.

The only reason I'm hesitating at building the Marcher at the moment is I don't want to be disappointed and then have to build another engine. My first interest is the model boat and the steam engine and boiler making secondary.

One reason I'm now tendind to favour the Borderer is that I would always like a model to be slightly overpowered, you can always throttle back. It seems that the D10 would just be too powerful so the Borderer would me a "middle of the road" (pond?) choice.

Many thanks

Les

[ooyah/2]

Les,
Go For the Borderer and make it 5/8" bore x 5/8" stroke.

The Marcher engine is too small for your size of boat and I can assure you that the Borderer will supply more than enough power.

It will look correct in the Tug rather than an Oscillator.

Steam Up's engine runs very well as did one that I built a number of years ago which I built from stock material, I fitted it with Silicone "O" rings and
it had plenty of power.
George. 

BORDERER ENGINE  WITH FEED PUMP. engine is the piston valve version which only needs a steam control/ reversing valve operated by 1- servo.

[steam up]

Had some great advice from George when building my Borderer including the correct feed pump and gear ratio good quality no bull s*** advice.
I went for the 5/8th bore and stroke with silicon rings.

[derekwarner]

ooyah/2....George...that is a very interesting steam control/reversing valve.....in that the inlet steam and discharge steam are connected to the same valve body 

I have not seen a commercially produced valve for model steam applications with the same configuration......

So if I may ask....  ........how does it work............Derek

[Circlip]

Aint going to cross swords with George on this one, I also built the Borderer when it first appeared. John Bertinat designed the Borderer as a more convenient power unit from the D10, so when he went one smaller with the Marcher, it seemed to ask the question where would this fit in the power band? Surfice to say, it has been utilised in at least one case :-  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUACahW2ik8

 If you do decide to go the Borderer route, do as George has intimated and use scrap/bar stock for the various bits of the engine as the price of the casting kit now generates a sharp intake of breath. I got change from $50 when I bought my casting kit.

  Regards  Ian.

[Circlip]

Nah, wersent Dollars, it was £ and yes Steam up, it's now £156 for the castings and another £16 odd for the drawings.

  Regards  Ian.

[steam up]

I used stock material took a little longer but enjoyable.

[Les]

Hi George and the others
 
Thanks for these replies, comments and advice. It's nice to hear from those who've actually built the Borderer engine and have had experience of running it in a model boat. I'm virtually convinced now that it's the Borderer for me.

What size boiler and burner would you recommend remembering that in my application it has to be a horizontal boiler?

I've never really considered building it from stock materials. I'll have to look at my "stores" and scrap box and see what I could utilise from the castings I have for the Marcher as I think some were originally for the Borderer. I don't know yet but I might just take the plunge and sell my Marcher castings and put the money towards the Borderer.

Just out of curiosity and I know the answer could be "How long is piece of string?" but have you got any idea how many hours it took to build the Borderer - it looks really nice and hope mine could turn out as well.

It's interesting that everybody replying to this steam query appear to be model boaters first and interested in steam second. Some of the boats are outsatnding with the woodwork. If one goes to a model engineeering exhibition the engineers tend to see the boat as puely a vehicle for their steam engine and scale and the quality of the boat are secondary.

Thanks again for the interest. It might help others as well as to type and size of engine required for a given size of model. It's difficult enough deciding on an electric motor and voltage etc let alone the complications of steam.

Les

[ooyah/2]

ooyah/2....George...that is a very interesting steam control/reversing valve.....in that the inlet steam and discharge steam are connected to the same valve body 

I have not seen a commercially produced valve for model steam applications with the same configuration......

So if I may ask....  ........how does it work............Derek

Derek,
It's a valve to my own design, steam comes in thro' the brass top and holds a disc with "D" shaped slots onto the other face to make a steam joint.
It's a simple matter to just switch from inlet to exhaust for reversing.

George.

[ooyah/2]

Hi George and the others
 
Thanks for these replies, comments and advice. It's nice to hear from those who've actually built the Borderer engine and have had experience of running it in a model boat. I'm virtually convinced now that it's the Borderer for me.

What size boiler and burner would you recommend remembering that in my application it has to be a horizontal boiler?

I've never really considered building it from stock materials. I'll have to look at my "stores" and scrap box and see what I could utilise from the castings I have for the Marcher as I think some were originally for the Borderer. I don't know yet but I might just take the plunge and sell my Marcher castings and put the money towards the Borderer.

Just out of curiosity and I know the answer could be "How long is piece of string?" but have you got any idea how many hours it took to build the Borderer - it looks really nice and hope mine could turn out as well.

It's interesting that everybody replying to this steam query appear to be model boaters first and interested in steam second. Some of the boats are outsatnding with the woodwork. If one goes to a model engineeering exhibition the engineers tend to see the boat as puely a vehicle for their steam engine and scale and the quality of the boat are secondary.

Thanks again for the interest. It might help others as well as to type and size of engine required for a given size of model. It's difficult enough deciding on an electric motor and voltage etc let alone the complications of steam.

Les

Les,

I would suggest that you make your boiler to a minimum of 4" o/d x 5" to 6" between end plates and make it a horizontal Scotch return flue with a torch type burner and make the engine driven boiler feed pump , this set up will keep you in steam all day.
I have a copy of the boiler that is in Mick's ( Patternmaker ) WIDE AWAKE  thread. and I also have the drawings for the Borderer engine which would have to be copied, I can have that done, may be able to help you with a piece of 4.25" O/D copper tube.

Some pics of a Scotch return flue boiler.







If you want to build the engine from stock, BLACKGATES  keep a good stock of Mehanite grade cast iron in square and rectangular sizes at reasonable cost and it machines beautifully.
You could make the cylinder head from this remembering to add on for the steel upright lugs and buy some cast for the steam chest and covers.
I made my cylinder head from a piece of square window sash weight and it was absolutely rubbish, didn't know about BLACKGATES  at the time.
You wouldn't need to have lagging on the cylinder head just machine it straight.

Hope this helps.

George.

P.S. Should have told you that I am one of those guys that don't build beautiful models, I have only built 2- steam powered model but have lost count of the number of engines and boilers.

[ooyah/2]

Hi George and the others
 
Thanks for these replies, comments and advice. It's nice to hear from those who've actually built the Borderer engine and have had experience of running it in a model boat. I'm virtually convinced now that it's the Borderer for me.

What size boiler and burner would you recommend remembering that in my application it has to be a horizontal boiler?

I've never really considered building it from stock materials. I'll have to look at my "stores" and scrap box and see what I could utilise from the castings I have for the Marcher as I think some were originally for the Borderer. I don't know yet but I might just take the plunge and sell my Marcher castings and put the money towards the Borderer.

Just out of curiosity and I know the answer could be "How long is piece of string?" but have you got any idea how many hours it took to build the Borderer - it looks really nice and hope mine could turn out as well.

It's interesting that everybody replying to this steam query appear to be model boaters first and interested in steam second. Some of the boats are outsatnding with the woodwork. If one goes to a model engineeering exhibition the engineers tend to see the boat as puely a vehicle for their steam engine and scale and the quality of the boat are secondary.

Thanks again for the interest. It might help others as well as to type and size of engine required for a given size of model. It's difficult enough deciding on an electric motor and voltage etc let alone the complications of steam.

Les

Les,

P.M. sent 28-05-12

George.

[derekwarner]

Les....whilst it may be a little simplistic, certain manufacturers do offer basic guide lines on their respective WEB sites

Macsteam boilers [British] have a good steam consumption calculation relative to the engine displacement
SAITO [Japanese] have recommendations for vessel length relative to the engine cacity
JMC [French] provide a similar table of hull displacement to engine capacity

It is interesting reading...... ....Derek