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Author Topic: keel position  (Read 11694 times)

malcolmfrary

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Re: keel position
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2013, 08:41:38 pm »

Once you know, from the sailplan cutout, about where the CE is, you know where the CLR should be.  Not necessarily for absolute performance, but to work and behave well.  Using the underwater cardboard cutout, including the fin and rudder, a good estimate of the CLR can be arrived at.  It is easier to cut cardboard than new hulls, and if thats what breakfast comes in, cheaper.  The fin is the major player in CLR position - the hull minus fin will probably have its CLR about halfway along the water line.
Hopefully, the positions on the model will be close enough that minor tweaking of things like mast rake and jib boom swivel will sort any odd errors in initial placement.
It is a fairly scale model of an actual prototype, but since a different sailplan, borrowed from a pure racing class, is intended, it will need some of the thinking that applies to racers to work satisfactorily.  A different sailplan will likely have a different CE, this will need to have the CLR moved to compensate.  When all is said and done, what makes the yacht go is the interaction of forces between the forces on the sail and those on the fin.
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stringer

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Re: keel position
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2013, 09:10:56 pm »

Hi roycv
you may have hit on something here, I may have designed this hull very similar to a vo60 racing yacht but I only know the hull I have created, how the sails will look, and the rudder's, even the amount of lead weight on the end of keel which I havent determined the length of yet.
Putting the problem of the keel position on the forum has brought me answers that I had not thought of, and I have met people I never knew before, but I wanted problems when I started, and I hope before this project is finished I will get more, and meet new and present shipmates to help me.
So what have I gained so far, I will be removing the keel to allow movement fore and aft, and the abillity to change the keel when I choose in the future without involving the restructure of the planking and glass fibre skin, this will mean some more support at the base of the keel to stiffen up side movement when the yacht heels over.
I will keep you up to date with photo's and hopefully involve you all again as I progress, please feel free to keep adding I know I will.
thanks for your help and advice
Regards Geoff
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malcolmfrary

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Re: keel position
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2013, 09:31:58 pm »

Quote
this will mean some more support at the base of the keel to stiffen up side movement when the yacht heels over.
This is one reason why I prefer a keel stepped mast - I can have the fin box and mast-step box as one unit, strong and rigid, between deck and hull bottom. The way your hull has been done so far, just bracing the tubes for the fin bolts to the ribs should be more than adequate.  Just keep in mind that all of the thrust from the sails is transmitted to the fin one way or another. 
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stringer

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Re: keel position
« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2013, 09:45:19 pm »

well I am back again,
I thought I would post a photo showing the waterline as a strip attached to the hull, and as you can see there is very little of the aft of the yacht in the water due to its width, yet at the bow its under by half an inch, which may mean movement of the keel to correct,
Geoff
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longshanks

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Re: keel position
« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2013, 11:11:35 pm »

Hi Stringer,
Check out this link, shows side elevations of Volvo yachts - hope it helps
http://sailingtrivia.ravenyachts.fr/2012/04/volvo-ocean-race-yacht-designs-by.html
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mrpenguin

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Re: keel position
« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2013, 11:15:32 pm »

...not a Genoa, it will be a self tacking one, as you suggest like a marblehead, I may change my mind as the build gets to the sail making stage, but I will be putting in line control in front of the mast prior to fitting the deck just in case I want to control the fore sail...

If you are planning a genoa, make sure you have worked out how to sheet it before you get too far into the build as the sheeting is very different to the Bermuda rig.

An important point to note is that a  genoa on an RC boat of this size will require moving a LOT of line - to get a 150% genoa across from close hauled port to close hauled starboard on something this size would mean shifting nearly a metre of line, implying a winch capable of moving this much line AND having the torque to close haul the genoa sheet at the ends of the travel....

I did a genoa on a 500mm boat and the genoa winch line on that boat travelled 300mm. Here is some video of my genoa prototype  showing how it worked http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bC2d4oJAmh4&feature=player_detailpage
And here is some video of it sailing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=V12uN09iWKM
(There is another sheeting method used on the RC Sprinta but that method lets the mainsail go completely loose midway through the tack)

Finally, I can say that sailing a genoa rig is much more work that the standard self tacking sloop rig, as you have to winch the genoa from side to side for each tack...

But it looks GREAT and is much more powerful (that is why I had to add extra ballast!)  :-)
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Brooks22

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Using Dynamic centers instead of Static centers
« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2013, 06:32:55 pm »

I've written extensively on CE and CLR, mostly over on rcgroups Scale Sailboats forum.

Basically, all folks seem to use static methods of estimating CLR and CE. This gets them into trouble because the actual locations, while the boat is sailing, are different. CE and CLR shift forward as the wind generates lift off the sail, and as the hull moves forward, letting the boat's underwater portions generate lift.

If you think airplane wing, you will see what I'm getting at. Sails and keels follow the same aerodynamic laws as airplane wings. The center of lift of a wing, be it airplane, sail, or keel, is Not at the *static* center of the wing (=the geometric center, the cardboard cutout balance point, the center of shove sideways in a tub, etc.). Rather, the center of lift is located forward, towards the leading edge. Choosing a *dynamic* center of lift for your calculations, at about the 1/4 chord point, works much better.

Method to convert static centers to dynamic centers:
Find the geometric center (=static center), using any method you chose.

Then, choose a point halfway between your static center and the leading edge of the lifting body.  This will be the Dynamic center, the balance point when the ship is moving.
For sails, the leading edge is pretty obvious: mast or stay.
For hulls, I use the bow. For finkeels use the leading edge of the finkeel.

To put it all together, ie find the Summation CEdynamic and CLRdynamic:
 If you are familiar with the method of moments, or the computation of CG for an airplane, then you will know the procedure. You need to weigh the center of lift by it's area; big sails have more effect than little sails. The total dynamic CE Moment will be the summation of each individual sail's dynamic CE X the sail's area X a lever arm. I use the bow as the datum; the lever arm for each sail is then just the distance of the sail's dynamic CE from the bow. If you then take total moment / total area you get the summation CE for the whole suite of sails. This is the distance aft of the datum (bow) where the sails all act at one point, mathematically. The total CLR is found similarly, using areas of the underwater bodies (hull, finkeel, rudder) and their lever arms from bow to their individual CLR's.

Summation CEdyn= (sail1area*sail1CEdyndistance from bow + sail2area*sail2CEdyndistance from bow)/(sail1area+sail2area)

Summation CLRdyn=(hullarea*hullCLRdyndistancefrombow+finkeelarea*finkeelCLRdyndistancefrombow+rudderarea*rudderCLRdyndistancefrombow)/(hullarea+finkeelarea+rudderarea)

Then, play around, mathematically, with the location and size of whatever you want (mast, finkeel, sails, etc.). The goal is to get the dynamic CLR  to line up, vertically, with the dynamic CE. If you do so, your boat will sail with little need for rudder angles. Your boat will tack and, probably, wear. It's really easy to do the calculations on a spreadsheet, allowing you to move stuff around w/o tedious calculator work each time.

The "probably wear" warning comes because, in a run, the sails are no longer lifting bodies, but are drag bodies. Moreover, the drag bodies are offset from the hull centerline, so you will need lots of rudder to turn into the body to complete the wear. But, if the CLR and CE are lined up, you'll have the best chance of being able to do both tacks and wears. You can alter the chances by favoring one over the other: if the dynamic CE is forward of the dynamic CLR, then wears will be easier, tacks harder. And vice versa.

You will always need some rudder, even in a perfectly balanced boat, because the lee bow wave will shove the bow to windward. And on a run, rolling will produce a windward bow wave that shoves the bow to leeward.  But you can reduce the needed rudder angles for beats and reaches by following my procedure.

I sail multimasted ships, built from scratch using plans and diagrams in Chappelle's "The history of American sailing ships" and other books. I'm always computing the dynamic centers during the design phase. I don't move masts or change sail size, but do move the finkeel around to get the summation CE to line up above the summation CLR.

Many archaic "rules of thumb" for locating masts and designing hulls are laid bare by following my procedure...for those of you interested in why boats looked the way they did. For instance, the pronounced "drag" of schooner hulls (the draft is deeper aft than forward) can be seen to be due to the need to have more "finkeel" aft to balance the sail's summation dynamic CE.


Hope this helps.
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mrpenguin

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Re: keel position
« Reply #32 on: April 16, 2013, 11:36:13 pm »

@Brooks22:
 
Thank you for that - makes sense to me.
There is obviously a good bit of "rule of thumb" still left here. You indicate that the dynamic CE is halfway between static CE and leading edge (the 1/4 chord point) - is this just a nominal "best guess" that works well or is there some mathematics behind it?
 
Also wouldn't the shape of the item would have some effect - for example with a right angle triangle jib in a Bermuda rig, moving toward the stay puts disproportionally much more than half the sail behind dynamic CE compared to static CE. meanwhile, doing the same for a Bermuda rig mainsail has comparatively little effect on the area behind CE. In essence it would seem than one more or less cancels out the other....?
Or am I totally off the track?
 
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Brooks22

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questions answered, hopefully + what makes lift, really.
« Reply #33 on: April 17, 2013, 03:26:29 am »

Mr.Penguin - those are good questions. Ask away, it's how I learn where my mistakes are :-)

1) 1/4 chord pt. validity: I don't know the math for locating dynamic CE (or CLR) there. The 1/4 chord location shows up a lot on aerodynamics books and internet sites, I did not invent it. I suspect it was initially just something derived from experiment - where does the wing balance (equal lift fore and aft of a fulcrum)? This would be pretty easy to figure out just by noticing if the wing tips up or tips down around a fulcrum when it's put in the windtunnel. Move the fulcrum until the wing does neither, and you have dynamic CE ta da! CEdyn moves some with angle of attack. But sailboats use the same AoA for beating and reaching - it's set by what is the minimum AoA you need to keep a flexible membrane (of cloth) filled with wind? Answer, about 3 points off boom parallel with the wind. So we don't really have to worry about changes in CE with changes in sheeting. Sloops beat at 4 points off the wind: 3pts to fill the sail, plus 1pt to get the boom off the hull centerline so that some lift moves boat forward.

In real planes with a single spar, the spar is located at the 1/4 chord point, or there-abouts, not at the middle (1/2 chord). That way, the strongest part of the wing is at the strongest part of the lift. As for real reasons for offset-from-center lift, if you look at the distribution of pressure over a wing, you notice it's not symmetric, but weighted towards the leading edge. Pressure is a proxy for lift. Thus, the summation of the lift results in being farther forward than the center of the wing.

I've seen estimates of CE as far aft as 1/3 chord, but most sources I've read seem to use 1/4 chord. I'd think the airfoil shape would affect the CE location, but have not actually seen this in books. But I don't know it all, by any means.

2) Relative area of jib fore&aft of dynamic CE, and relative area of triangular mainsail (or quadralateral mainsail) fore&aft of dymanic CE does not really matter. The mathematical center of lift, the CE, is what it is. Which way the right triangle points (Jib vs mainsail) affects the location of individual CE. They do all cancel out at some point along the hull. The method of moments allows you find that point.

3) This is another topic, but lift is not Why you (probably) think it is :-). Good old Bernoulli has almost nothing to do with it :-0. Prior to the end of WW2, aerodynamicists used Newton, not Benoulli, to explain lift. After WW2, for some reason US guys (and maybe others) adopted Bernoulli. The big B can't explain a lot that is true of flight: eg. flight upside down, flight using a symmetrical airfoil. If you ever get a chance to look at the airfoil at the wingtip of a business jet, you may be amazed to see that it's upside down - the curved part is on the bottom, and the straight part is on the top! Holy Non-Flying Cow, BernoulliMan!

So why did they use Bernoulli post WW2? Possibly because it's easy to measure the negative pressure distribution above a wing (using little manometers connected to holes in the upper surface). Since Big B is related to lift, you can use it as a thermometer of lift. Somewhere along the line, though, the thermometer got confused with the furnace. FAA backed the wrong horse, equating Bernoulli with lift, and US pilots have been mislead ever since. Fortunately, you don't need to know Why lift exists to fly a plane or sail a boat :-)

Recently, physicists at U of Washington and Fermi Lab recalculated lift for a Cessna 172 (they are both pilots). They found that Benoulli can't account for more than 1-2% of the lift needed to fly that plane. But, Newton calculations can :-). The wing throws air downwards, and the "Equal and Opposite Reaction" law of Newton explains that the air, in turn, throws the wing upwards. You can read all about their work here, which they call the "Physical Description of Lift" :
http://home.comcast.net/~clipper-108/lift.htm

Anyone who stands behind an airplane propeller has felt the air being thrown. The Wrights, in one of their important insights, realized that a prop is just a rotating wing. Well, if the prop is throwing air, then the wing must be too, is one way of looking at it. The plane is not sucked forward when the prop spins, but is thrown forward in reaction to the air being thrown aft. There is suction, but it's miniscule compared to the force generated by all that mass of air thrown aft.

All the same happens with the sails and the keel. The difference is that the sail pulls to leeward (pulls perpendicular to the boom, actually), and the keel pulls to windward (perpendicular to the hull). W/o the keel's lift to windward, we'd never be able to sail to windward :-). The hull and keel each form symmetrical airfoils (which Benoulli hates). Due to the leeway of a boat, the hull & keel have a positive angle of attack, which lets them generate lift. We don't pull the boom to the hull centerline when we want to go to windward because if we did, all the lift would be directly perpendicular to the hull, and we'd only go sideways. But letting out the boom a bit, we get some of the lift to point forward, sending us on our way. The keel's lift combats the leeward part of the sail's lift, otherwise we'd go forward (pointing upwind), but drift to leeward faster than the movement upwind since the majority of the sail's lift is pulling us leeward.

Just fun stuff I like, not much to do with balanceing sails and keel.

Hope I answered some of your questions.
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mrpenguin

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Re: keel position
« Reply #34 on: April 18, 2013, 01:20:30 am »

@Brooks22:
 
Comprehensive answer, thank you. Discussions like this certainly get the grey matter ticking over!!!
 
Re point 2, yes I was referring to the individual sails, agreed that they cancel each other out - the inherent inefficiency of the sloop rig I guess, however I can confirm that a sloop rig is MUCH easier to sail to windward than a square rigger!! I just built one for a competition.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zZGjFR5CYUE
 
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stringer

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Re: keel position
« Reply #35 on: April 19, 2013, 12:02:56 am »

well everyone,
When I started this topic i had no idea how complicated it could become, you guy's amaze me, here am I adjusting the keel fore and aft, and the lead weight to different shapes, and positions by trial and error to gain the optimum sailing conditions, and you flood me with so much information that goes way over my head.
 Your answers make interesting reading, but I think I will stick with trial and error and sleep soundly at night.
I am grateful for all the replies this topic has raised, and long may it continue
Regards Geoff ( stringer )
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Brooks22

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safe maiden
« Reply #36 on: April 19, 2013, 01:14:02 am »

Geoff, there is nothing wrong with trial and error. I've said in other forums, when keel position has come up, that even the most complicated math is unlikely to provide an exact solution. With regard to my method, for example, it disregards all "2nd order" factors, such as the fact that sails on aft masts are operating in dirty air spilling off masts in front. As a result, the "effectiveness" of aft sails is less than sails up front (which  requires the keel to be moved forward a bit from the calculated position).  I like math so I type away on the computer. But when I get to the pond for the maiden voyage, before we get wet, I make sure I can move the keel fore or aft of the calculated position :-)) .

The boat will tell you what it needs: If boat won't head-up to tack, move keel forward. If she won't bear-off to wear, move keel aft. I've experienced  the need for each correction at one time or another. If you can't move the keel, you can still add keel area fore or aft to the existing keel to achieve the same effect. Take some flat plastic and tape with you to make temporary keel modifications, if you want to get the most out of your pond time.

The only important point is to be sure that you can grab the boat before it moves out of reach. Then, if you guessed keel position wrong (and you can't turn around to sail back to the launching area), you won't be forced to watch the boat sail out of sight on a big lake. Twice I've read sad tales, online, where sail-aways happened. In each case, the unfortunate owner lost his model on the maiden voyage, sigh. A shepard's crook pole can extend your reach. Or you can fasten a fishline to the hull so you can reel the wayward vessel back - I've done both :-)

Safest pond for a maiden voyage is one where you can get to the shoreline all the way around. Large lakes are the most dangerous, unless you Already have your rowboat ready to pursue Before you even put the model in the water. In one sail-away, the owner finally found a motorboat skipper who'd chase after the model. But by then, they could not find it.
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stringer

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Re: keel position
« Reply #37 on: April 19, 2013, 11:05:25 am »

Hi Brooks22
 Well now your talking my kind of language, I decided before you came on board to cut the keel off, and strengthen the centre board, and then drill through the centre board between three bulkheads as the picture shows, the keel has been rough shaped and there is also a small wooden drill fixture attached to the keel to allow drilling the tap size hole for the brass bolts to be secured to the keel, these will pass right through to the deck and be hidden by the removable portion of the cabin, this was described in an earlier post by Dreadnaught22, this now gives me the ability to move the keel, and gives me a secure fit between the keel and the yacht.
 The lake where I will sail her is in Portishead Bristol, which has a path all the way round, there is however a hazard in the shape of an Island with a weeping willow, but the consillation here is you can hire a rowboat to rescue the yacht.
 Thanks for your last reply, the reaction to the change in the keel position on the yacht will be very helpful
Regards Geoff
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