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Author Topic: HMS Agincourt build project  (Read 63949 times)

Bob K

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HMS Agincourt build project
« on: May 08, 2017, 06:00:01 PM »

HMS Agincourt build project

I have been known to take on unusual and challenging projects, like my semi-submersible torpedo ram.  Having seen the prototype of HMS Agincourt I absolutely must have one, despite the serious impracticalities involved.  I have been working on various solutions for some time, and am now on the verge of starting the build.



See also:
HMS Agincourt semi-kit prototype at Deans Marine
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,56462.msg589561.html#msg589561

Rotating 7 gun turrets
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,56800.msg590109.html#msg590109


How you get a seven foot long warship into a tiny city ECO car heads the list of challenges.   The lake our club uses will not allow trailers.  The bar over car park entrance rules out a top box.  So, there is only one way.  Build and transport it in sections like our latest aircraft carriers. Careful measurements show I can just get both halves onto the folded down rear seats of my Vauxhall Agila if the hull cut is exactly between the two centre turrets. Two demi-hulls 42 inches ling by eleven inches beam.  My workbench is only 1.6 M, but that will take half a hull at a time.

Joining the halves
Just about every multi section ship I have seen uses bolts nuts and washers, involving a lot of fiddling about on your knees lakeside.  With my iffy legs that is out.  I need a more plug-and-play method.  I looked at how model railway layouts are transported.  Some chunky flange mounted spigots and bosses looked a possible method.  However, after trials it became apparent they would not adequately support the mass involved.  Adapting the principle I figured that if I could mount three substantial tubes in each half of the hull, across several reinforced bulkheads, and use close fitting rods to effect the join, the load would be supported.  Lastly, a substantial adjustable toggle latch in the centre to clamp the supported halves together.  The rods would be transported separately. 

Getting it home
The 2.14 M length of the hull is a “collection only” from Deans Marine. So the next problem is how to get it home.  I am hoping I can arrange something with Ron to cut it in their workshop.   

Electrics
I am not messing around with interconnecting cables, asking for trouble.  The stern half will be fully self contained with its own Rx, ESC’s, mixers and batteries.  The Bow half will be mainly water ballasted, pumps and float switches, but with a matching Rx paired to the same Planet T7 transmitter for additional functionality.

Seven Turrets !
Now for the part that has really filled my sails.  I am going for the full seven turret fire control system mentioned on the above link.  Using stepper motors under the turrets and Arduino’s plus a heading sensor to control their movement.  Basically, you set a ‘compass’ bearing and any/all guns that can train on it will do so, and continue to adjust their bearing as the ship changes course.  Special thanks to C-3PO.

More about that later !!!!
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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2017, 06:56:52 PM »

Well I for one wish you the best of luck and will watch avidly for the updates of this build as it continues. :-))
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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2017, 08:03:07 PM »

Amen! Capital ships and lots of turrets always float my boat  :} If you can get the hull cut in half properly then everything else will be a breeze relatively speaking, given that you have worked on pumping systems before and the turret control system is being developed by at least two fellow members.
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Capt Podge

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2017, 09:54:11 PM »

Looks like this is going to be an epic build - I like epics so I'll jump aboard and see how this one develops.

Regards,

Ray.
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Bob K

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2017, 10:25:49 PM »

Thank you for the encouragement chaps  :}

This has kinda been in R&D for some time.  Nick B will remember me taking loads of photos at Deans in December.  Ron Dean has cast turrets and a set of running gear for her.  I intend using 2 x Action P93's for the inner pair of prop shafts, and a P94 dual ESC with mixer for the two outer shafts.  I may add about 30% to the rudder area as I have found this greatly assists long warships being able to turn.

The basic shapes of the superstructure look to be well suited to flat or round section fabrication. I am not even thinking about the sheer volume of deck planking and stanchions involved.

One practical revision:  The sides are bristling with secondary armaments that coming alongside could easily destroy.  I intend making those gun barrels in soft grey rubber as they are asking to be broken off.
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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2017, 05:09:27 AM »


Hi Bob
Good luck with your build and I look reading about it :-)
Dreadnought
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Bob K

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2017, 10:59:47 AM »

Rx Testing

OK, silly time.  Using dual paired Rx's should work, but I have never tested the principle until now.
Both halves of the ship will have independent electrics, each with it's own Planet 7 channel receiver, independently paired to the T7 transmitter I intend using for the ship. 

Most of my boats have separate Rx's, each paired to my Planet transmitter,  I have never tried using more than one boat at a time though.  So, I turned on the power to two boats, then turned on the transmitter.
As expected, both sets of rudders and props worked exactly together in unison as if wired together.
Then I tried it with four boats.  Same satisfactory result.

This proves that my plan for independent paired receivers for each half of the ship will work together as if one.  The dedicated channel positions on each Rx have to match for functionality of course.  It will mean duplicating Arduino's and bearing sensors for the seven turret control system, but at not much more cost than a pair of multipole connectors that would be very vulnerable to water, operational damage, and also reliability. 

It also means Arduino processing overheads can be shared by two processors, one handling the aft four turrets, the other the forward three.

Might be obvious, but I needed to check a dual RX system works.

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2017, 12:42:51 PM »

A wonderful subject. I have always loved the flying platforms, I hope that is the correct term, running amidships. I tip my hat to you for attempting such a huge and grand project. Big is always better when they meet the water, their motion is so much more realistic.
I like your idea for connecting the hull halves. I will follow your build anxiously awaiting each post.
Good Luck
Jonathan
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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2017, 11:02:01 PM »

It may have no effect whatsoever Bob, but have you checked out the multiple RX's at distance to make sure that thay all have the same range? One would hope that RX made with the same components in the same factory, pssibly by the same people should have exactly the same properties, but there may be slight differences between component batches or production qualities that would show up at distance.

Naturaly, one would not be running Agincourt at maximum distance all the time due to lake size etc, but as she is a big model she will look good in the distance where your turrets may still work whilst the drivetrain has suddenly cut out or vice versa (which is less important).

Just a thought...
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Akira

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2017, 11:42:19 PM »

On this side of the Pond, I know of several "Bubbleheads" who have very successfully used multiple receivers running off the same transmitter. They installed them in separate pressure hulls within the main hull. If they will work in submarines, a" target" should not be too much of a challenge.
Jonathan
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Geoff

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2017, 02:11:22 PM »

You could even do firing guns - per my Iron Duke thread - all the plans and details are there.


In terms of transportation a couple of thoughts:







1) If your front seats and rear seats have removable headrests you could replace them and make a holding bracket so the hull sits in their place assuming the car is long enough? I considered this for Iron Duke but in the end found it just fitted diagonally in my Vectra hatch.


2) You say a roof box is out of the question due to height restrictions but what if you remove the superstructure and place it in the boot would there then be room for a shallow roof box just to take the hull? I used to do this a long time ago with a 6ft model of HMS Neptune 1918 on the top of a mark one  Ford Capri and it worked very well. I lined the box on the bottom and sides with carpet for protection.


Good luck with your build


Cheers


Geoff
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Bob K

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2017, 02:47:37 PM »

Geoff.  I absolutely love your Iron Duke, but knowing how hard and long your development was and the mechanical complexity involved I could never replicate that in my dockyard.

Just to give you an idea of just how small the Vauxhall Agila is, check this photo link . . .
https://images.honestjohn.co.uk/imagecache/file/fit/730x700/media/3430341/Vauxhall~Agila~(9).jpg

The overall length is just on 3.7 m and the "boot" is barely able to contain a folded down pushchair trolley on its edge.  Even with the headrests out I cannot squeeze a 2 x 6 ft sheet of plywood in there.
We are talking 84 inches, a seven foot hull.  11 inch beam and very tall.   
Incidently, at our club we have seen several cars have their top boxes ripped off at the car park entrance, the most dramatic of which was a 4x4 Landrover with 4 bicycles on the roof, made more spectacular as he was in a hurry %%


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Geoff

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2017, 02:57:21 PM »

Ah, yes, I hadn't realised how small it was. Still would a low roof box fit under the height restriction?

Cheer

Geoff
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Bob K

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2017, 03:46:52 PM »

Car park height restriction is 2.00 m.  (6 ft 7 inches).  A distance of just 250 mm above my car roof height, or 5 inches less than the length of the hull.   I had even considered MKI tank side sponsons for the passenger doors, but the MOT people might have got upset.

I am currently building a mock-up of the hull sections, demonstrating the support / join methodology described in my Post #1.
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Geoff

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2017, 03:52:31 PM »

Hmm, very close but a box may be do-able which would save complications in cutting the hull in two - either way good luck and I hope to see the build progress.

Cheers

Geoff

I know dig out the road beneath the height restriction!!!   :-)
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Bob K

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2017, 11:57:33 AM »

The build is now committed.   %%   I have just ordered the hull from Dean's.

In the mean time I am building a half scale mock-up of the hull halves joining scheme described in my initial post.  Nothing like having something in your hands to appreciate applied functionality.  I am already working on some improvements using this 1:2 model as a test bed.
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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2017, 12:15:01 AM »

Ooh, let's see!
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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2017, 02:41:23 PM »

Just a thought, does the whole hull have to fit in there - with the front seat down and the rear seats flat - from the dashboard to the tailgate, the length is xxxx.00mm, how much would stick out the rear, with a solid construction vertical bar that plugs into the tailgate bottom connection and the tailgate lock mechanism, rendering the tail gate immobile, you could have the box for the hull sticking out without damaging it or it being damaged by the weather.

If you have the resources, and the technical knowhow the following could be done (the following is tongue in cheek but still a valid idea, that I believe no one has ever done).
1. a visit to a scrap yard to purchase a rear door / boot off a similar car van, also whilst there, ask for the bottom sill of the boot from which the door came from that includes the lock mechanism (the bit should have a cable connection that runs from the drivers seating area, you need the boot release lever as well).
2. Two steel tubes, one that slides into the other, both at least 1.5m long, plus some steel plate various thickness up to 5mm.
3. A sheet of leather / water proof material - whose length or size will become apparent shortly.
4. First - remove the window from the rear of the recycled door, remove the top and side portions that surrounded the window, mark and cut out the side parts so that the top edge looks square and neat, but only for the drivers side, the effect to aim for is a tailgate as found on a landrover.

Now, if it was fitted as is, it would not hold in place so a plate suitably rounded and deburred would need to be welded to the exposed inside top edge of the drivers side, angled and sufficiently enough to hold the right side using the inside profile of the boot plastic.
The passenger side of the rear tailgate is not needed - anything left of the lock (providing the boat box is no wider), so the gate is cut from the bottom of the gate to the window sill vertically, deburred and made good, except don't cut out all of the left, leave the bottom structural beam at the bottom and up the left side, remove the top part (or leave if the hull box will fit through i.e. cut a hole through the gate) repeat the retaining plate as for the right side but now for the left side.

So now the gate is locked in to the existing boot mechanism and stopped from falling outwards by the plate on the left and right, remember the cars tail gate is still above you (like when you see people taking the stuff to the tip). we have to secure the existing door to the new inserted tailgate, but not by rope, this is solid and mimics what the rope would do.

Take the old scrap sill from the other car and cut away all but the area around the locking mechanism, removing most of the cable but enough so that it can be used by the lever, two options, a single bar to the fixing position or a roll bar frame, I think the later would be better, fashioned from the smaller diameter bar (so more than the 1.5m) mitre joins or have bent into a roll bar the same widths as the gate, the larger diameter is cut into two equal lengths and each is welded to the top of the gate where the widow sides were, the angle at which they are fixed can be fixed or better still on brackets that allow them to go up to vertical, they have holes drilled in at equal distances for pins that will lock the roll bar tube to lock into - obviously the roll bar will slide into these tubes, so now we have a roll bar fixed to the top of the new gate and that can be swivelled up and will meet the existing door, as the existing door is brought down mark where on the roll bar the door mechanism would latch onto the sills lock, take the old sills lock and attach it by welding or bolting, using some 5mm plate create a pad for the lever to be attached.

The above means the cars existing door is now locked into a door mechanism, which is also locked into the cars existing mechanism, both should be secure, using plate create a locking support strap that will hold the hull box so that it moves up and down effectively with the car, that wont allow the box to slide out of the car.

The above could be done with a single bar with plates welded to hold the door mechanism, both can swivel so that they remain in the same position as the door would, and in place at the top and bottom, holding the door in many different stages of openness and adjusted by the sliding tube locked in different positions.

and the waterproof material
well it would cover any holes, like a open top car, trailer, shaped and secured with similar ways - bungee or poppers, tailored to suit.

any comments would be greatly received - as said this is tongue in cheek.
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Bob K

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2017, 07:03:45 PM »

Just a thought, does the whole hull have to fit in there - with the front seat down and the rear seats flat -

Stop right there.  The front seat does not fold flat, only tilts forward to about 45 degrees.  And, no, it would involve booking garage visits to remove then replace the whole seat for each sailing session.  Even then it would not fit.  My HMS Polyphemus in its carry box is 1.32 m, and that involves putting the rear seats down and squeezing it in diagonally, almost touching the rear door.  Agincourt is a full 2.14 m hull - without a box.  An extra twenty inches, almost two foot.

The solution has to be practical, as is the method I am adopting.  With the rear seats folded down I have a flat space 1.2 m wide x 0.9 m forwards.  With the hull in half you have two sections 1.08 m x 282    No point cutting the car in half when the sections will fit side by side on the rear seats.

I was not going to publish my half scale mock-up just yet as I am still at an early stage with it.  However, even this early picture should illustrate the principles.



Heavy duty tubes go through three bulkheads in each half.  Heavy duty close fitting rods (removable for transit) provide a spine support across the hull halves, in a triangular section like a building site crane boom.  Depending on how tests on the mock-up go, either one or two H.D. adjustable toggle clamps to hold the sections tightly together.
I will probably epoxy ribs between the tubes and inside of the hull for additional bracing, and seal the inside ends of the tubes so the sections remain fully watertight.

It will be stronger than a one-piece hull, and only takes a couple of minutes to install lakeside. 
No fiddling about on your knees with bolts nuts and washers.

Clunk-click.  Plenty of room for SLA batteries and four motors in there.
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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2017, 09:47:53 PM »

I think elegant is the word Bob.

Where are you going to fit the toggle clamps?
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Bob K

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2017, 10:34:26 PM »

Thank you ballastanksian.  More like all that is left when all other options have been ruled out.

Toggle latches are one reason I am making the 1:2 scale mock up.  At present I envisage 9mm bulkheads on the join faces, making up a new "hook" plate to go through the forward join bulkhead so the load is taken on the forward face.  A reinforced platform between the first two bulkheads aft would carry the actual toggle latch.
Ideally I would like the line of action close to the midpoint of the triangle of tubes, but I may have to offset it down a bit to make sure I have clearance for the "Tuesday" and "Wednesday" turret mechanisms. 

I intend to make the rear superstructure removable for access to motors, shafts and turrets, with enough room to get my hand in to operate/adjust the toggle latch. 

Early days yet, but I have reached a point where I believe it is possible.
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Bob K

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2017, 11:34:05 AM »

Displacement

Next problem is the models displacement, and my ability to lift it.   So far no figures on sailing weight for the prototype, so a basic calculation is needed to estimate it.

27,850 long tons is about 28,296,906 kg.   Divide by 96, then divide by 96, and divide by 96 again.  1/96 is the scale and we need the cube root of that.    I make that 32 kg total.  Ouch !

Even if the unballasted model weighs 10 Kg it is going to need around 22 kg of extra ballast to bring it to the waterline.  Allowing for two 12V 8 Ah SLA batteries ( 6 kg )  in the rear half I still need an extra 16 kg or so

I would rather put that in after I lift it into the water, and preferably without having to kneel down at the water’s edge.  That is 16 litres of water, which I can pump aboard after launching.  I am hoping that my water ballasting experiences with Polyphemus will help here.  I could use two compartments in the forward half, suitably water-tight, with a bi-directional pump and sealed micro-switch float valves.

Removing around 16 kg at launch leaves about 16 kg to lift – manageable.

The pumping system would be the subject of a separate R&D exercise as the above is very approximate.
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unbuiltnautilus

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2017, 12:08:47 PM »

If your two sections are fully watertight and able to float independently, you could assemble AFTER launching Reducing the launch weight in two. I can do this with Ohio. If I am on my own, the model is too heavy to launch and recover, however, I can disconnect the aft RC section, the rest is launchable and recoverable.
 One thing to consider is your stand. Make it long enough to support both sections of the hull. If you assemble it dry, you do not want to be putting too many undue stresses on the hull, as you assemble or separate it. What you want to avoid is a situation where the fore and aft parts try to tip as they come apart. More stresses on the hull joins. This could be sorted by ballasting the hull sections accordingly. Just an observation based on our exploding merchant ship. This has a long stand to take the load off of the weak hull joint ( a pencil, tell no one!!).
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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2017, 01:10:18 PM »

To minimise stress it would be ideal if both halves, when ballasted, floated at their waterlines.

...I can imagine a situation where, for example, a 'nose-heavy' bow and a 'tail-heavy' stern would, when assembled, float correctly, but constantly stress the joint.

Andy
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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2017, 01:41:48 PM »

As above, much better explained and with far fewer words than I used :-))
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