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Author Topic: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build  (Read 11218 times)

rhavrane

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2017, 10:59:37 PM »

Bonjour Mark,
The club "Hippocampe" bought a dozen of TVR1A (examples in the videos shared) and these specialists waisted a lot of time to find the appropriate timing of this sensitive machine. And I do not know any steam machine running perfectly exactly onboth sides, this is why I buy my propellers after my steam tests. You have done a good job, let's go on following your adventure  :-)) [size=78%]  [/size]
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T33cno

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #26 on: December 31, 2017, 11:02:34 PM »

If Martin can allow it you can use whatever my allowance is as I don’t use it
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Mark T

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2018, 04:32:45 PM »

Ok I'm up posting again as Martin has upped the amount of pictures you can upload to the MBM image server due to my excessive use of it  :embarrassed:  - thanks Martin  :-))


Right its time to start cutting to make room for the steam plant.  After much measuring and quite frankly trembling at the thought of cutting up such a nice kit, I simply decided to get the plant as low as it would possibly go.  The picture below kind of shows how much I wanted to remove from the keel and bulkheads.





Now deciding this caused me quite an issue due to the construction of the kit.  Removing this much material completely removed the bulkhead locating slots from the keel and also meant that if I cut the bulkheads without altering them first they would simply fall in half  {:-{
So to the keel first; I used the very bottom of the bulkheads as my datum and marked out what needed to be removed.  I extended the locating slot downwards and then it was onto the bandsaw to remove the and lower the keel











Now the bulkheads; I temporarily filled the pre-cut slots to hold the two parts together.  This did not have to be a master piece of carpentry and once the bulkheads were glued in their use would be very limited.





And then I glued spruce to each bulkhead to act as both a strengthener and also the main point of contact with the keel.  I wanted them to be strong due to the amount of bashing they would probably get whilst making the steam plant fit.





Which were then cut to the shapes that I had calculated (guessed) earlier





I was really please with the first trial fit which has really opened up the hull.  This is only the first cut as there are many more to make but its a start.








Everything is below decks now and I've got a nice straight alignment between the motor and the propshaft.  I've had to move the separator to just above the propshaft as this is the only place it can fit and still give me access through the openings in the deck.














I also apologise in advance for my ultra clean workbench  {-)   I'll get some more pictures up later - Mark  :-) [size=78%]  [/size]
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bfgstew

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2018, 06:14:34 PM »

Awesome work Mark........ :-))
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Mark T

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2018, 06:24:00 PM »

Thanks Stewart  :-)


Having had a bit of a play at putting all of the components in the hull it became apparent that I needed to widen the bulkhead in front of the motor to get access to the coupling and I also had to shorten the keel where the propshaft is positioned.











This meant that I could not use the supplied propshaft which to be honest wasn't the best quality anyway so I substituted it for a stainless steel shorter one.  Now as this propshaft is well below the water line and very short too, I decided to silver solder a grease tube to it and also fit a grease cup as well.  I have to thank Cupalloys for their help with this as they supplied me a really good flux for soldering brass to stainless.  I'm hoping that having a well greased propshaft will minimise the amount of water that gets in that way.





Next I glued the outer propshaft supports together and sanded them into shape.  This part was then simply glued onto the keel.








These are the fillets that fit on the bow to allow the planking to be fitted.  One has been chamfered and the other is how they are supplied.  After chamfering both they were clamped and glued in place on the bow








And similar pieces being clamped and glued to support the planking near the propshaft





Next was to clamp and glue a former onto one of the bulkheads.  This former is purely to help construction and is removed once the planking is complete





And finally for today the stern former was fitted.  This piece cause me some real problems as the instructions / drawings are so vague and contradictory here.  In the end I fitted it where I thought best so I hope that its correct.





For now thats pretty much all of the modifications that I can do to the hull without putting the steam plant together and then into the hull.  So thats up next.


Cheers for looking - Mark
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IanJ

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2018, 07:35:10 PM »

Hi Mark,


Following with great interest, lovely work. is it your intention to do as much work with respect to the necessary support frames/beams etc that the steam plant requires at an early stage & before any planking?


ian
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Mark T

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2018, 08:54:57 PM »

Hi Ian


Yes the steam plant will be fully working and complete with all RC and wiring before any planking is done.  I learnt this lesson from my last build to be honest.  I have found that its far easier to do it at this stage rather than later and saves knocking the finished surfaces about.  The problem that I have found though with doing things this way is just how vulnerable and flimsy the boat is without any planking.  I'm just trying to be as careful as possible but it doesn't always work.  I have already caught one of the bulkhead ribs with my sleeve and snapped it clean off.  After much swearing and a cup of coffee I repaired it  :-)   The downside though is the actual building of the boat starts much later.


Mark
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Its not the finishing that matters - Its the journey along the way that counts

Fairmount Alpine Build http://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/album/bXv
Anteo Tug Build http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,59708.0.html

T33cno

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #32 on: January 06, 2018, 11:06:53 PM »

Lovely work as usual there (precision)  :-)  re catching ribs, Have you considered pinning a plank uppermost on each side?


As a temporary measure.
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steamboatmodel

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #33 on: January 07, 2018, 03:48:05 PM »


Hi Mark,
A nice job on the prop shaft. You may want to use oil in it instead of grease, especially if you are running in cool water. I have had Grease filled prop shafts create so much drag that the motor stalled .
Regards,
Gerald.
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Mark T

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #34 on: January 07, 2018, 06:17:59 PM »

Andy a great idea and I really wish I had done that  - One for the future for me


Hi Gerald I've heard of the grease stalling the propshaft before so I think I'll give it a try and if I get any problems I think your suggestion of using oil would be a sensible alternative.  I can only think that some type of hydraulic lock would be the cause of grease causing that much drag.  I'll do some tests and see if I get the same problem
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Its not the finishing that matters - Its the journey along the way that counts

Fairmount Alpine Build http://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/album/bXv
Anteo Tug Build http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,59708.0.html

T33cno

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T33cno

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #36 on: January 07, 2018, 06:29:07 PM »

My thoughts are that grease just languishes and holds any swarf from wear whilst oil continually very slowly drains away and is refreshed.




MMM recommended thick oil and I agree with that.
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SteamboatPhil

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #37 on: January 07, 2018, 09:49:14 PM »

I use hypo 90 gear oil on my shafts and lub box on my steam plants, I have been doing this for 40 odd years and have had no problems. A few chums did try grease......not with any success. :((
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T33cno

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #38 on: January 07, 2018, 09:50:47 PM »

Like it  :-))  I never thought of gear oil, better than my old 20/50  cheers  :-)
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derekwarner_decoy

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #39 on: January 07, 2018, 10:26:54 PM »

Rather than carry a shop full of petroleum products you could try

a light green sewing machine oil ISO VG 10.........engine bearing & the like  O0
a dark green steam oil ISO VG 460.....displacement lubricator

The latter would also be a suitable stern tube lubricant  :-))

Derek
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Mark T

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #40 on: January 13, 2018, 10:16:33 AM »

Hi All


Some pictures of the start of the steam plant build.  I wanted to place the engine and motor onto a base so that it can easily be removed for maintenance and also catch the mess that will drip from the plant when its running.  The other issue I have is that the whole plant has to be fitted through the openings in the deck and accessible for use.  I started by making a frame from 8mm brass angle that fitted into the hull and then cut a plate from 1mm brass for the base.  Its a bit shiney  %%









I then had a trial fit just to see how things fitted together with the prop shaft and coupling and I was really pleased with the results.











I then finished off the base by running a silicone bead between the frame and the base and then bolted the two parts together with some 3mm stainless steel bolts with some very nice round head nuts.  The four slightly larger holes are for mounting the plant into the hull.  They align with holes on the bulkheads that I have tapped out to 4mm and will have stainless steel studs glued into them at a later point.  I'm just using bolts to hold it in for now.








Now very fortunately for me the mounting plate sat lower in the hull than I expected which will be good for stability but I also discovered that the motor was now 3mm too low for straight prop shaft alignment.  So I made a little plate to raise both the motor and boiler feed pump.








I've now got good alignment - In fact the plate is so low that the highlighted bolt had to be turned around the other way as the nut will be in the way of the planking!  Fortunately it simply turned around without fouling the engine - more luck than judgment





I'll get some more pictures up later but this build is so enjoyable and really makes me scratch my head at times with the problems the conversion is throwing up.


Mark
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bfgstew

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #41 on: January 13, 2018, 02:12:12 PM »

I do look forward to your updates Mark. Really is going to be a beauty. Keep up the fantastic work. :-))
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T33cno

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #42 on: January 13, 2018, 02:13:58 PM »

Why do we drool over steam and brass  O0  Lovely Mark  :-)
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Mark T

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #43 on: January 13, 2018, 04:45:27 PM »

Thanks lads - honestly I'm loving doing this build.  Ok another update  :-)


Now that the base for the boiler and motor is on its way I needed to mount the gas tank and the oil separator.  Now luckily the gas tank comes fitted with some very nice feet which are tapped out should you want to bolt it to something.  I however need to remove the gas tank for filling as I don't want to blow my boat up with lost gas falling to the bottom of the hull  %%   The feet are large enough to stand the tank up on its own so I made a base which simply allows the feet to locate and then the stability of it will come from the attached pipework.  It is a simple base which has a 1mm brass top just to accommodate any wear of putting the tank in and out.











Next the separator needed to be mounted in the only position available in the hull and that is just above the prop shaft.  This was quite tricky as I needed it to allow me access to the prop/motor coupling; line up with a deck opening and be as low as possible to keep stability of the hull.  So I made a little shelf for it to fit on and epoxied some 3mm stainless steel bolts in as once the deck is on there will be no way of getting under the shelf to insert them.











After the shelf was built I started on the pipework now that the main components were installed.  Firstly the boiler feed pump to the clack valve which goes through a bypass valve.  I have since fitted an isolation valve too.  The boiler is now also bolted to its base using 2BA cap head bolts.








Then I piped in the throttle which is a Microcosm product along with the lubricator to the motor inlet.














And then it was the motor outlet to the separator.  Now I know that the pipework layout may seem a bit random but that's because I have to fit it around deck rafters and other parts that have not yet been fitted.











Finally for today the separator exhaust was made.  This pipe has an isolation valve fitted as when this valve is closed and the outlet on the separator opened; the waste flows out of the separator outlet which can then be collected and disposed of safely.  This pipe will eventually go up the funnel to get rid of the used steam.





Thanks for looking again - Mark  :-)
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Its not the finishing that matters - Its the journey along the way that counts

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steamboatmodel

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #44 on: January 13, 2018, 06:16:32 PM »


It is looking good Mark.
Are you going to insolate the Boiler and pipe works?
Gerald.
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Mark T

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #45 on: January 13, 2018, 06:31:50 PM »

Hi Gerald


Yes all of the hot pipework will be insulated and the boiler is going to be clad in ceramic first followed by walnut to make it look good and also  try and make it more efficient


Mark
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Its not the finishing that matters - Its the journey along the way that counts

Fairmount Alpine Build http://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/album/bXv
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derekwarner_decoy

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #46 on: January 13, 2018, 10:58:16 PM »

Excellent  :-)) sharp, square, up, down & straight...as all tube work should be  O0 on a model steam plant Mark  .......

From this and other WEB postings, it is clear that the overall quality of the Pendle product is apparent, however the installation of an isolation valve in the discharge port of the de-oiler body [depending on other porting arrangement's] creates the potential to pressurise the vessel.....so some may say that this can only be exhaust pressure, so yes.....but this can see stalled engine pressure which is boiler relief valve pressure

Placing an additional isolation valve [globe or needle] in the exhaust line off the engine will create exhaust back pressure relative to the pressure drop across the valve. In most model steam plants, the exhaust line is the largest diameter possible with the minimal number of fitting restrictions as possible

I must also be missing something :o in the planned evacuation of waste oily water from the de-oiler if ported as per the last image

Derek
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rhavrane

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #47 on: January 14, 2018, 12:08:11 AM »

Bonjour Mark,
Sorry if it seams rough but I would like to give you my opinion. Your piping, in and out has too many angles.
The exhaust one with 180° just after the cylinder will create an against pressure wich will seriously affect engine performance. Perhaps could you return the screwed pipe and shorthen this part ?
Is is said that 90° looses 30 % of power, of course it is wrong, but 4 times the in piping will ruin benefits of reeating the steam. Perhaps could you save several milimeters to go down directly from the chemny to the RC valve ? Detail, it would be  better if the oiler would be installed before the RC valve, one of my boats is installed like yours and the RC valve becomes difficult to operate with the heat.
You have nospare room, it is a challenge but you can yet think about it, when the boat is finished, it will be too late ok2
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Jerry C

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #48 on: January 14, 2018, 05:43:17 AM »

Looking really nice. In view of two previous comments consider turning exhaust manifold through 180° and go straight into separator tank without the 180° bend. I wouldn’t bother “drying” the steam before putting it in the engine as the TVR doesn’t like it. Instead I would heat up the cold water from the feed pump before the clack valve. Putting cold water into the boiler in my experience slaughters your boiler pressure. No need to throttle exhaust from separator to empty same, the pressure across the tank will suffice to force condensate out of tank.
Lovely work,
Jerry.

Mark T

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #49 on: January 14, 2018, 09:44:25 AM »

Hi All


Thanks for the comments and I'll do my best to answer them.


Derek - I think that you are right about the globe valve in the separator exhaust pipe causing a small restriction but its there for a purpose.  When the engine is running the plan is to close this valve and deliberately pressurise the separator vessel.  The outlet globe valve is then opened on the vessel which blows the contents out which will be sent down a flexible/removable pipe for collection and disposal.  When its empty just simply reverse the process.  You are also correct about the quality of the Pendle products.  I have fired the boiler and it give out more power/pressure than a TVR motor could ever use which in a way should (I hope) negate some of the restrictions that I have placed on the overall plant.


Raphael and Jerry - You are both right there are too many bends for optimal performance but let me tell you what I tried before taking this route.  I tried turning the motor exhaust manifold around but after many attempts I could not successfully join it to the separator.  The pipe bend was simply too tight.  I thought about moving the motor back but then this causes me similar issues at the inlet end.  I wanted to have the lubricator before the throttle but again I just could not get the pipework to fit.  I still want to do this though so I may change the lubricator to a different type so that I can achieve this as I'm sure that I will have issues with the throttle sticking otherwise.  I really like the idea of heating the boiler feed water  :-))  I'm going to put some thought into this.


The good news is this boat will hit the water before the deck is installed so that any problems can be ironed out.  Its quite difficult when posting this build to get across the limitations that are placed on me with regard to pipe routes etc.  As the whole thing is under decks I've had to find compromise after compromise buts its fun finding the solutions  :-)


Mark
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Its not the finishing that matters - Its the journey along the way that counts

Fairmount Alpine Build http://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/album/bXv
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