Model Boat Mayhem
Mess Deck: General Section => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: Martin (Admin) on August 05, 2008, 01:35:40 pm
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After the 'Mrs' saw my work on the Bismarck and in particular, the planking, she said;
'That's good enough for you to take up the carpet and lay a wood floor in the living room!'
Never done this type of thing before, any tips, hints, guidance please...... :(
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Best tip of all Martin.......................GET SOMEONE ELSE TO DO IT!! 8) 8) 8)
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Sage words.....
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hi ya there Martin
What you basically have to do is find out whether the Mrs really does want laminate flooring - sometimes the waiting game really works :) and she may change her mind >>:-( >>:-( O0
A couple who live down our street, have the dining room, lounge & kitchen floored throughout with laminate. We were invited to have a look - cos we were considering putting laminate down too - we took our shoes off to acknowledge their prize flooring - because some of it is prone to getting black marks
:-\ on it.
When we came back home, after the courteous oh it looks nice, my Mrs said to me she felt that it was cold to walk on. Phew I got out of putting it down in our house - apart from the conservatory where it does the job. :)
When I next spoke to the neighbour, he was saying his floors were insulated well underneath all the laminate - he felt is was not only cold but also disappointing and noisy to walk on - its clip clop like horses hooves.....
So keep Sage thoughts as well as sage words! O0
aye
john e
bluebird
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Practical, though, when you have five cats, a dog and three kids.
My own experience of laminate laying: I had a small kitchen in a flat a few years ago. The instructions said "leave 20mm around the outside for expansion". So I did. But there's no way a four foot wide laminate floor would ever expand that far. The stuff seems extremely "stable". IF you go for it, best advice would be to rip off your skirting and lay it under that, with a smaller gap hidden by the skirting board once it's back on. And prepare to re-hang/lift/plane off the bottoms of all your doors.
Oh, and buy decent stuff. The cheapest laminate is godawful to lay - the "lock" part of it seemed to be made out of cardboard. My first floor luckily floated away when my washing machine leaked, so, in kitchen floor #2, I bought and laid better quality stuff, which was the bees' knees.
Andy
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Just remind her how long it took you Martin..... And it's still not finished.
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Laminate / wood floors are great for the tropics / med area.
Got to agree with the cold / noisy brigade - and seems to create dust and mucky marks where you go into a carpeted room from wooden hall.
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There is also the consideration that if you kick the dog/cat there will be no discernible reduction in velocity by the time the animal makes contact with the wall - more mucky marks. ::)
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Speaking as someone who used to lay it for a living I would say if you really, really want it get someone who knows what he's doing to do it.
Personally I would not give it house room.
Its cold, noisy and incredibly slippery.
My next door neighbour has it and he has just had to fork out for mats so that his dogs can at least stay upright where the mats are.
Any way its only a fad, in a short while everyone will discover how good fitted carpets are. O0
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Hi Martin,
Why no scale up deck planking,paint the floor brown and use a fat black felt tip pen!. Ho Ho.
Len.
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Dear Martin,
Dicky is absolutely right, and I think you have had other good replies in connection with this matter.
Model ships/vessels is one thing, domestic installation is quite another matter. For a ground floor installation, to do the job properly it needs a good concrete base (with Regs. insulation underneath), 2"x 2" treated timber - brass screwed down, proper up-to-date flooring Regs. Spec. insulation between these joists, decent flooring timber(preferably oak), and then this sanded off and thoroughly treated. Whichever way you look at it, and without even asking floor area. the cost will be a min. £2k. to do the job properly. A planked floor need not be cold.
So get all the prices together (making sure it's about £3k +), suggest you are not quite sure you can do it and it is probably best to get contractors in (another £2k), and I am sure this will get you out of the fix you are in! ;) O0
Regards, Bernard
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......... 'Mrs' Martin here.... he's just passed out! :kiss:
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Fitted it myself 7 years ago in hall & living room on top of concrete floors, still looks as good as new.
Noisy? no one wears shoes indoors at our house so no it isn't.
Cold? nope, no one's ever complained about it.
Slippery? s'pose it depends what type you have, none of us have had a problem, the dog sometimes hits the front door at a good speed when the doorbell goes but she should have learned by now ::)
Personally I've been very happy with it and I was very pleased to get rid of the carpets & all the nasty things living in them but each to their own I guess ;)
PS, definitely agree about removing the skirting first, looks much better
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Martin,
Laying the stuff is the easy bit! Getting it right is a totally different animal.
1. Wood/laminates and water DO NOT MIX. Mrs M mops the floor a bit too often and - bingo - it will warp or swell at the edges. This assumes, of course, that it hasn't already done so because the Rh (wetness) of the sub-floor is over the recommended level. Some of them have an edge coating of wax to 'help'. Others, even the 'clic' ones need to be glued on the joins in kitchens - again to help prevent seepage.
2. Sub-floor needs to be good and smooth. None of the 7mm underlay to cover up the deficiencies. 3mm is normally what you get and if the floor is out by more than that you get nice bouncy bits where the laminate doesn't touch what's underneath. Out comes the screed.
3. Both Andys were right - take the skirtings off and do a proper job. Make it look as it should do and not just a temporary arrangement with bits of brown scotia along the straight bits and loads of mid-brown filler in the bendy bits.
4. If you've got a concrete floor underneath - think of the direction where the boards would run if you had a Victorian pile.
I'm sorry if the above gives the hint that I dislike laminate but after nearly 40 years in the trade I'm afraid I do. There has been more argument about the supposed hygene merits of laminate than anything else since the inception of 'FREE' fitting. Part of the 'health education' budget for laminates allegedly coming from a Scandinavian timber source.
That said, the builders still love it. It's difficult to wear out and PROVIDED YOU SPEND THE TIME AND MONEY AND GET IT RIGHT it can look good.
Just don't get it wet!
Tony
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When Mrs Tobyker got her new kitchen we had a solid bamboo floor laid (Bambooflooringcompany.com) They sent us a couple of samples - one laminated from solid bamboo and one made from smashed up twisted and reconstituted bamboo - the hardest option. We borrowed Jack the dog's paw and he could scratch the laminated stuff, so we went for the hard stuff. When I asked the co about laying it and edge-nailing it to the floor undeneath he said we'd only bend the nails trying to do that - he advised using a hi-tech glue to fix it. Apparently it stays flexible to accommodate movement in the boards underneath. Materials 22sq m plus glue (£75) etc £656. I got a man in to do it because we were tight on time and though I could have done it the experts who do that sort of thing every day are 3 times faster! The hard bamboo is very hard on saws - the expert cut two planks by hand then went off to get his circular saw! It's been down 6 months now, we're very happy with it and the dogs switch on the traction control before going in the kitchen! Incidentally I left an offcut in a bucket of water for a week - no discernible penetration. I can post a photo if you like but will have to wait until SWMBO is out of the way!
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Hi Tony H, you're the right bloke in the right place at the right time! Right now, we're about to convert an upstairs room into a bathroom. We are going to take up the floor and fit this green waterproof interlocking chipboard stuff which will be the base. Now SWMBO wants to put this ruddy laminate flooring down on top of it and she has a fixation on it and I can't sway her... even though I have passed on your views regarding it! She states that an interlocking laminate product called 'Aqualock' is designed for bathrooms and therefore must be ok. We discovered it in B&Q, so, what do you think and have you come across this product?
I would love any excuse to get out of the job but be honest, is it REALLY waterproof?
Yours in anticipation...........Chris
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Another thing that you should bear in mind when laying laminate flooring is the fact that apart from concrete floors, all your pipes and house electrics are under the floors.
Should you ever need to get to any of these you have to first destroy your very expensive laminate flooring and then repair it afterwards (more expense). O0
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Dicky, I threw that one at her but she's a determined woman... and you know what that means!
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Hi all
Here is food for thought; I used to work for the Company (Formica) and they produce the overlay laminate /grain effect that you see on the laminate flooring - about 8-9 years ago (approx maybe longer) - when it was first being developed; there were serious problems with it won't go into too much detail.
The actual contact face/wearing face of it is only approx 0.002'' in thickness; which, once it breaks down deteriorates rapidly - thus allowing dampness into the print face and the print face is only printed paper. This is why on edges of the plank (sometimes) you will see it buckling as it becomes damp. Although the manufacturers give you what they call a 'lifetime guarantee' its true lifetime span is somewhere in the region of between 10-15 years before it actually begins to break down.
To be honest with you; if you want proper wood flooring it may pay you to go for the real 'I AM' stuff - 3 times as expensive but it lasts a real lifetime.
Here is the real nasty bit; we could purchase a full box for One pound UK sterling from the Company and it cost 30 pence to manufacture - I am not sure what it would cost now. Of course that offer was only to employees - typical.
aye
john e
bluebird
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Wood Floors is the new Artex in five years everyone will be trying to get rid of it and find there skirting's have been butchered etc so it becomes a Major job to get shut of it.
Proteus
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I agree with John that real wood is far superior to laminate, also you will notice that B&Q only guarantee it for twelve years. O0
I agree with Proteus also, its only a fad.
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I used it as a replacement floor covering in my conservatory where it actually looks quite nice but I don't think I'd give it house room. As others have said, you simply cannot beat real wood for appearance and wear. I'm reminded of those textured wall panels you could buy back in the 70's, I thought they were the bee's knees back then.....
Colin
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I got this sample when I was looking not long ago, not the cheapest but it looks good and will stay stable and can be repaired.
Proteus
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As part of a major house upgrade we had a flat roof converted into a gable roof a while back, and we've equipped the resulting mezzanine out as ACTion HQ. Liz decided that she wanted a solid oak floor so that's what we got (of course). I think it cost something over thirteen hundred quid just for the materials. It's about 10mm thick and looks fabulous. The contractors did fit it with an allowance all round for it to expand under the skirting but, for a few terrifying weeks until it overcame the friction from the sub-floor, it had a bulge in the middle of about two inches! Happily it settled down and the contractors avoided a painful and lingering death by VAT inspection............ ;)
As for that laminated stuff, I haven't seen any I felt I'd be comfortable with, and I'm always suspicious of something that seems to be sold by every Del-Boy outfit in town, often undercutting each other to silly levels. Too much like replacement windows, soffits and fascias?
Suit yourself; we still prefer carpets in main rooms.
FLJ
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SWMBO now looking a solid bamboo and going by Tobyker's post it would seem like the best option. I may be winning the argument against laminate and your posts have helped immensely. This thread has appeared at exactly the right time for me...thanks chaps!
Chris
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Do you want us to have a go about the solid bamboo now Chris ? O0
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Ok Dicky, give it your best shot old chap.
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Had a look at the web site Chris, seems a lot of money for compressed grass ( Come and look at my bathroom I have compressed grass for the floor---hmmmm not very trendy) also it does not say on the website if it is waterproof.
http://www.bambooflooringcompany.com/index.php
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I had a look at the website Dicky, most of the types refer to 'strand woven' however, No 5 on the list refers to 'solid vertical' and I would assume this is the natural product. The missus was looking at this on some other website she'd found so what do you think, would this solid stuff be better or doesn't it really matter too much? It is going in the bathroom as I said so it's not going to get a lot of hard wear. There is the other point that if SHE decides to have it, I won't be allowed to walk on it or splash it or even touch it for that matter... do you know where I can buy a 'hoverboard' like the ones we saw on Thunderbirds!!??
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No5 has a 25year structural guarantee Chris, but it is still only compressed grass. Dont really know enough about it to comment.
Small point, how sllippery is it when wet.
Small consollation if you have to have it, when it all goes a**** upward it wont be your fault, you didnt choose it :angel: :angel:
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Dicky, She found one which had a less slippery surface specifically for bathroom use so it looks as though I'm sunk!
I did in fact deny all responsibility for when it all goes belly up but I got the usual emotional female blackmail response... " you wouldn't say that if you really loved me"! I have personally managed to completely wriggle out of the job as I have quoted the various comments everyone made about getting it professionally layed so a bit of a giant bonus for me. Thanks Men!
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Personally I have never liked any of the engineered flooring materials as it seems a bit clinical for me and although maybe not physically cold can give that appearance.
It might be worth remembering that real planks are an option are surprisingly easy to fit and look so much warmer than engineered laminates.
My dining room floor was done with real planks prepared by a local firm who saves them from building demolitions. The wood is obviously well seasoned so shrinkage is an absolute minimum. I simply stepped the planks as though they were attached to floor joists and used a nail gun to stick them down. A new skirting stained to match finished the job which only took a couple of days.
Three coats of polyeurethane to give it some durability and I'm very pleased with it.
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Dicky, She found one which had a less slippery surface specifically for bathroom use so it looks as though I'm sunk!
I did in fact deny all responsibility for when it all goes belly up but I got the usual emotional female blackmail response... " you wouldn't say that if you really loved me"! I have personally managed to completely wriggle out of the job as I have quoted the various comments everyone made about getting it professionally layed so a bit of a giant bonus for me. Thanks Men!
Hooray!! O0
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Sorry to add another bit to the 'slip' subject but please note that slip-resistant is not non-slip. Domestic materials are always a compromise between looks and technical requirements. There's no such thing as non-slip because even with the biggest dimples in the world, some prat will break his little finger and put in a claim!
Professional specifiers, such as housing associations, will almost always specify proper slip-resistant flooring, such as Altro, for the wet areas. Proper means with a decent test rating.
They are quite happy to use laminate in the hallways and lounges and the quality is only governed by price.
At home, you end up putting bath mats down and covering up a fair bit of the bathroom floor anyway after the first close shave when the floor's wet.
Also, please note that the vast majority of 'guarantees' relate to the time taken to wear the flooring/carpet or whatever out. Nothing to do with how quickly it starts to look, shall we say, hard done by.
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Chris (Sheerline) what ever finish you go for do not use any kind of chipboard green or otherwise in a bathroom.
(a) All your pipes are covered and if you get a leak its a hell of a job to get to them. You will first have to remove the finish layer, then using a circular saw cut through the chipboard, then make the repair. As chip board relies on the integral joint for strength the floor will never be truly stable again.
(b) Water will soak into the chipboard and over time dissolve the glue which holds the `chips` together, this can spell disaster. The worst case I have seen is arriving on a job through the back door to find a bath leg sticking down through the kitchen ceiling.
As a plumber when I did up my own bathroom I went the way of Bunkerbarge. Natural wood plank's (floor board) will do. Secret nailed it. Hired a belt sander and spent a couple of hours sanding everything smooth, then several coats of Ronseal 5 year wood stain. Its been down 6 years or so and no problems as of yet.
Colin H.
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Thanks for that Colin, I have to say that a planked floor was my original intention for all the reasons you outlined but Women have no real concept of whats really involved in these kind of jobs. I haven't given up working the job my own way and with a bit of luck may be able to grind SWMBO down. I ripped up the interlocking chipboard floor in one of the bedrooms and laid ordinary planking in there, the results were quite pleasing and I learned a lot from the experience so I think I could do a much neater job of the bathroom with the experience gained.
How do you prevent spillage in the bathroom seeping between planking as I'm sure the joint between natural planking must open and close depending on humidity? I know you can seal the surface but the undersides will be bare wood and if there are any heating pipes below wouldn't that cause the planking to dry out and shrink somewhat?
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Vinyl, that is what you need Chris, it's not all like the old lino you know.
I have a wood strip vinyl in my kitchen that people keep mistaking for real wood strip flooring, it's so realistic.
Ticks all the boxes. O0
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There are different types of laminate floor.
Most of it is mdf with a photocopy/photograph (honest) of a pattern on it. This can (often does) wear out and leave mdf shining throug.
Also it does not like water.
The type proteus showed us in his post is ply and 5.5mm of wood on top. A very different kettle of fish.
I was advised not to use it upstairs becuase of a need to get to services. In the event of needing to get pipes etc, one popular solution is to go up through the cieling below. I think you can imagine the mess.
Laminate floors are designed to go down once and once only.
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Hello again Sheerline,
One of the answers so seepage between the (proper) planks is to take a tip from boatbuilding and caulk the joint.
A neighbour of ours is a a yachtbuilder of the old school. He laid old oak planks, caulked the joints with hemp and white caulking and even dowelled the screw holes. A really beautiful job and relatively easy to undo if required.
Tony
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Heavy discussions with missus last night, desperately tying to swing her over to planking and might be denting her armour!
I would rather put in the effort of a nicely planked floor now, rather than have all the effort and misery of ripping up and replacing an interlocking floor covering because of some kind of future plumbing problem.
Dicky, your referral to vinyl is very logical, it's cheaper , easier and definately waterproof but I don't think she'll go for it. The whole of the existing interlocking floor is coming out shortly and as I'll have a blank sheet to start from, I want to get it right from the word 'go'. I'm definately sold on the 'real planking' floor idea I have to say.
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Richard has a very good point. We have vinyl tiles in our kitchen which look like dressed stone and very realistic they are too as well as being doddle to lay. Added to that I'll bet they are much harder wearing than laminate and are warm to the touch which makes nocturnal visits to the fridge much more comfortable!
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Interesting read... When my wife first visited the UK she was astounded to see carpets/wooden floors etc in bathrooms. The regulations in Sweden demand an essentially "waterproof" and mould-proof constuction so wood floors are very rare here... However if the good lady wants wood in the bathroom maybe this will placate her
(http://www.olundssnickeri.se/Bilder/bild_main.jpg)
or here http://www.laguna.li/english/index.html (http://www.laguna.li/english/index.html)
Floors and walls have to be sealed using membranes or rub
ber type paints and then your other coverings. All floors are built with a fall towards the obligatory floor drain. Most common floor coverings here are plastics or ceramics.
Just recently they have banned the use of cardboard faced plasterboard as a wall substructure. Surprisingly you still hear that damp problems associated with bathrooms is a huge insurance problem. Could it be that the UK system where you don't lock in any eventual leaks and damp is a better solution??
As an aside they still laugh at the British having plumbing on the outside of houses.......
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Sorry Colin, but you may a tad hopeful about the wear.
Almost all cushioned vinyls and many 'patterned' vinyl tiles, including lots of Karndean, Amtico etc. consist of a printed foil/paper on top of a harder or softer base and then with a clear vinyl cover. I.e. they are not homogeneous.
The thickness of the cover determines, generally, the amount of wear you get.
This is fundamentally the same problem as with Laminate as has already been mentioned by others. In other words, once you wear through the top bit, 20-30 thou. +or- you have lost it.
It's a long time since I went to a 'cushioned' vinyl plant, but the three-dimensional effect was created then with a version of baking powder.
The substrate layer vinyl had a foaming agent included that was activated by heat. Before printing the design, the first run in the press was a catalyst that neutralised the foaming so, for example, it would print the grout lines if it was a tile design.
Once the clear layer was applied, the whole lot would go through an oven, the tiles in the design would thicken, leaving the grout area behind and produce the effect you wanted.
I'm afraid that I went with old fashioned Lino in the Hall, KitchenDiner (Must admit that I inlaid a fish pond, complete with goldfish, lillies and a periscope) in the middle and normal carpet in most of the rest of the house, including our bathroom.
Frankly, most of this thread is irrelevant because most people go with what they like, not for what they 'should' have. Just check the pipes, check the subfloor and put it down!
Tony
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Hi Chris,
I used standard T&G floorboard 2 tips. First hire a floor board thing ama jig cannot think of the correct name but its a steel device that self clamps to the floor joist and then allows you to 'jack` up the floor boards tight into one another before nailing. Second when I did my bathroom floor a put a bead of gripfill into the groove.
FLOOR BOARD CRAMP its my age.
Yours Colin H.
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That wooden bath is absolutely beautiful.
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Colin, 'floor board cramp' is what I'll get through kneeling! Joking aside, I think the missus could now be swaying towards the planking idea after all the doom and gloom I have been spouting about interlocking boards etc. Looking good so far chaps.