Model Boat Mayhem

The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Steam => Topic started by: gondolier88 on August 20, 2009, 06:26:37 pm

Title: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: gondolier88 on August 20, 2009, 06:26:37 pm
Hi all,

Wondering what interest is around for this engine fully buillt to customer's spec (colour, fittings, accesories etc)?

Thinking around £440 for basic engine painted to prefered coulour, rising with add-ons (need to do pricing but roughly £35 dispalcement lubricator with valve drain off, £40 for exhaust silencer/oil seperator, £35 for engine-mounted micro-servo throttle cradle)

Let me know what you think.

Greg
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: Bee on August 20, 2009, 08:09:54 pm
If you look below at the Hemmens thread people were suggesting 350 for one of them. Cost of production doesn't always equate to perceived value.
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: gondolier88 on August 20, 2009, 10:33:09 pm
Hi Bee,

That thread is discussing a completely different engine, a used one at that, not to your own spec', and also as John Hemmens said they can fetch anywhere between £350-£1500!

Hi all,

Wondering what interest is around for this engine fully buillt to customer's spec (colour, fittings, accesories etc)?

Thinking around £440 for basic engine painted to prefered coulour, rising with add-ons (need to do pricing but roughly £35 dispalcement lubricator with valve drain off, £40 for exhaust silencer/oil seperator, £35 for engine-mounted micro-servo throttle cradle)

Let me know what you think.

I hope I didn't sound too short then, just want to clear that up,it's just not really a fair comparison, and this isn't percieved value- other manufacturers are offering less for only £30-40 less.

Heres a pic of the engine to remind you what i'm talking about.

Greg
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: Bunkerbarge on August 20, 2009, 11:18:39 pm
I agree you have to compare apples with apples but the comment you refer to regarding engine values of £350.00 to £1500.00 was specifically referring to a Caton 'V' four valved engine, which is an entirely different beast.  My own estimate for a second hand 'V' four in the current market was, and remains, about £350.00.

You are referring to an inline twin oscillator which in either an in line or 'V' configuration go for about the same price.  If you want to refer to something similar then starting with a Hemmens 'V' twin complete with a lubricator you are looking at £225.00.  It is £275.00 if fitted with a water pump.

From what I can see from your picture yours has the advantage of screw fastened cylinder covers but I can't see much more that it has over the Hemmens.  A fairer comparrison would be the Stuart Puffin engine, which is, of course, the old Cheddar Puffin and almost identical to your Clyde.  The current catalogue price is £390.00, ex VAT, which is a significant increase over what  the Cheddar price used to be and Stuart are generally regarded as an expensive engine.

Another usefull comparrison is a twin oscillator I have which is also very similar to the Puffin.  It was made by an extreemly competent model engineer in the form of Bogstandard, who is a member here, and the going rate for one of the batch of six he made at the time was £200.00, including a lubricator.

Using these engines as a comparrison I think £440.00 for a model engine similar to a Puffin is way too expensive and I would be very surprised if you were able to generate any demand at that price.

   
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: gondolier88 on August 20, 2009, 11:41:37 pm
Okay, drawing board here I come... ok2

Greg
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: Bee on August 21, 2009, 12:06:13 am
I guess where you were coming from was
http://www.myhobbystore.com/7263/Miniature-Steam-Clyde-Assembly-Kit.html
and suggesting assembly and painting would take it above their built price of
http://www.myhobbystore.com/7262/Miniature-Steam-Clyde-Fully-Assembled.html
or that of Cornwall http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/ms5009.html
Maybe you could find a buyer if they can, but some things I would definately do is remove the moulding flash, modify the covers for six hex bolts, and some kind of covered oil cups.
Out of interest, any other suggetions to give it a bit more 'class'?
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: Proteus on August 21, 2009, 12:12:47 am
If I was offerd a comecial Puffin or one made by a man in a shed the one made by the man in the shed would have to have something very special to stop me buying the comercial engine as you  have to think long term for spares, and be a lot cheaper, as it would be a gamble.
over the last 12 months I have picked up a Puffin. compleatewith a  brand  type two boiler for £340 on ebay

Proteus
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: bogstandard on August 21, 2009, 06:09:50 am
Proteus

Rather a bad accusation there.

Quote
If I was offerd a comecial Puffin or one made by a man in a shed the one made by the man in the shed would have to have something very special to stop me buying the comercial engine as you  have to think long term for spares, and be a lot cheaper, as it would be a gamble.

I have been making custom model steam engines for boats for more years than I care to remember, and have them installed in model boats in many different countries, and never had a single complaint about quality or workmanship. In fact, last year, one of my long stroke oscillators was used as a direct replacement for a Gemini engine, where it outperformed it in every respect, steam consumption, power and ease of use.

I cannot say that everyone takes as much care as I do, but every engine I make is built to exacting tolerances and finish, with only the correct materials used for long life. The output shaft is bearing supported, not found on a lot of engines, and without it, results in early bearing failure on the front end, especially if they have an unsupported flywheel. Stainless steel for all rods and shafts, aluminium bronze for big ends, all stainless fasteners, top quality stainless steel ball races (at least 4 in every engine) all into a very compact and easy to control unit. Also supplied are spare rings, races and even stuffing gland materials, oh, and nearly forgot, spares of screws and fixings that are used on the engine, just in case you lose one on a Sunday whilst sailing.  Also supplied is an installation and running guide to get the best out of the engine. Tell me if you get that sort of service from commercial makers.

My engines are not made down to a price, but well designed, powerful and easy to operate, and still only half the price of a commercial unit, as has been shown. That is of course dependent of the cost of raw materials, this year, they have risen dramatically, and at such a low price, the extra costs cannot be absorbed, so the price has to rise or fall accordingly.
I am not in direct competition with the main suppliers, and only produce in very limited quantity, not for massive profits, just to keep my workshop ticking over in consumables and tooling, and the love of making them.
Normally, you won't see them for sale, as they are usually sold before they are finished being made. During the build, I can also modify my engines to customers requirements, two of my last batch were made into horizontal units for paddle boats, how many of the commercial producers can do that?

So please, don't go tarring everyone with the same brush. I consider my engines far superior to the 'Puffins' of this world. They do the job efficiently, usually with a lot more power, and as I have said, I have never had a single complaint or fault reported.

Horizontal and vertical version of the same engine. The horizontal one cannot be stopped with fingers on just 5 PSI. Both designed to work on less than 30 PSI, preferably 25 PSI.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/6.jpg)

Mine with a Puffin. Mine has nearly double the stroke length, but not double the height. Slower revving, more power, doesn't wear out as quickly. It will easily power a 50" steam launch.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/NexttooldtypePuffin.jpg)

My own designed long stroke piston valve engine (plain bearings on this one). But could easily be converted to stainless needle roller.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/custom4.jpg)

Mine against a Hemmens V twin (Bunkerbarges').

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/commission.jpg)

This is a standard installation in a Krick Victoria with a Maccsteam boiler. A very powerful full plant for less than 600 squid.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/3-3.jpg)


Do you still think it's a gamble?

I don't, and I am positive all my previous customers don't either.

Just to answer a bit of Gregs initial question, if making them youself, inline luber with built in drain, about 25 squid, a nicely polished, manually emptied oil trap, about 25 to 30 squid, depending how large it is.


Bogs


BTW, next batch, hopefully sometime early next year, dependent on health and workload.
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: derekwarner on August 21, 2009, 07:49:23 am
May sound like coals to Newcastle....... %) ;)...but an e-mailed thumb sketch to Crewe Engineering [Bogs+Vinnie+Bandit] & the resultant model steam accessory parts are winging their way Australia

The result is proven time & time again
 
Quality =  :-))
Dimensional accuracy =  :-))
Cost comparison to Australian produced items + air parcel post consideration =  :-))
Delivery status.........I never say urgent... = :-))
Pleasant person to deal with  =  :-)) + he has a great dry & droll sence of humor  {-) %%

What more can I say......... thanks Bogs..........:-) :-) :-)...Derek
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: Proteus on August 21, 2009, 07:57:12 am
Proteus

Rather a bad accusation there.

Do you still think it's a gamble?

I don't, and I am positive all my previous customers don't either.

Just to answer a bit of Gregs initial question, if making them youself, inline luber with built in drain, about 25 squid, a nicely polished, manually emptied oil trap, about 25 to 30 squid, depending how large it is.


Bogs


BTW, next batch, hopefully sometime early next year, dependent on health and workload.


So you answerd it yourself, Yours are special and worth buying, they are something different to the norm, they are not a lookalike copy of a existing commercial engine , so yes anyone would jump at them .

Proteus
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: Bee on August 21, 2009, 10:37:21 am
Some lovely engines there - the piston valve one looks gold plated in that shot. I think the dividing line is not commercial/amateur but 'reputation' which can only be built up over time. Not to put you off Gondalier, give it a go, after all even Flintoff started with tennis balls (for people reading this in the future it's day 2 of the final Test)
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: ROSYTH on August 21, 2009, 11:17:15 am
I am doing a small launch for a friend at the moment who is as the norm on a tight budget.
He wants to be on the water late summer early autumn which will be ok I guess so I needed to have a really good scout about for a
Small steam plant that would match his massive budget for plant only of 150 quid {-) {-) {-).

Oh dear I hear you all say, well I thought that until I started looking at certain auction sites across the country. As we all know there are now increasing auctions
dates for Scale Models and if you know where to look you can with some patience come across a few items. I regularly leave email bids with these auction houses and
if successful which isn't very often due to keen competition in this ever growing market, I am more than happy when the items land.

So back to budget boat, I managed to bid on and buy for 170 quid excluding premium( all told 199) a Brand New Cheddar Models Complete Steam Plant with a new Gas Tank
and everything else in its original packaging with all instructions. It was the Cheddar Kompact Steam Plant but Brand New. It is granted approx 50 quid over his budget but he is
very happy with it because it is complete and does not require any additional items to be bought which will add more cost.
I doubt very much he would have come across anything like it on 'e£$y' for that kind of money or even made up a steam plant of individual items for that money so once fitted and
running in his launch he will be quite happy I reckon.

When making a purchase it does pay to have a really good look at what is on the market commercially and if that is too expensive for your pocket then look around at Auctions or
make a call to advertise yourself on forums like ours or amongst other like minded enthusiasts.

Auction was at Lacy Scott Knight........Model Auction last friday.........lot 128.  for those interested have a look at what the other items fetched as I missed out on a few items
by 5-10quid against my left bid, not to say that it may have gone higher though as there is a lot of competition these days for good small kompact plants!

Cheers
Rosyth
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: gondolier88 on August 21, 2009, 06:18:35 pm
Okay, I went back to the drawing board, I found I couldn't do what I want without as lathe, I never wanted to use already available engines, so i'm ordering an Axminster SIEG C2 tonight- expect progress on the engine front- going to start with a D10- which I will be selling so I will keep you all posted to see if your interested and to test my techniques.

Greg
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: stuart177 on September 03, 2009, 05:25:24 am
Boy are there some skeptics out there!
Sorry Proteus but your assumptions are wrong. I am responding for no other reason than to put the record straight. I resent the implication/s that we are “guilding the lilly”. We are not!

A steam engine is a steam engine and it is difficult to design one that does not look like any other. None of our products have been reverse engineered. Yes the Clyde does look like the Puffin but that is where the similarities stop. Three engineers had a go at drawing up our requirements starting 4 years ago. The last one got the design right and we have polished the design in prototype testing. The design has many superior features as a result of this testing. If you thought the Puffin was good wait till you try Clyde. This work is also spawning an extension to the range that will be announced shortly.
A similar story applies to the other products we offer.
A boiler is a boiler but I challenge anyone to get one that outperforms ours.
To Proteus: Steam sealing is important for efficient operation – hence the knurled nut packing gland.
To bogstandard – yes the piston rod is brass. It would be stainless steel if we could source SS rod of the right dimension.
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: Proteus on September 03, 2009, 09:56:16 am
stuart177

 I think you have posted this in the wrong post. my remarks where made
Hear

http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=19343.0
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: Proteus on September 03, 2009, 10:17:11 am
Back to this post , after reading the post on the plover and the problems had but now hopefully getting sorted I stand by what i said ,  for someone who just wants a running engine go for a recognised steam manufacturer with  a Good  track record ,, UNLESS you know the work of a specialist whose engines can be a lot better than commercial.

my comment are after seeing a few engines and plants bought of e-bay advertised as ""  built engineer" to museum standards and they are just a collection of parts found in a shed or a old night school project.

Proteu
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: Circlip on September 03, 2009, 12:38:00 pm
How many GENUINE Fleebay ads have you been reading Proteus?? EVERYTHING with a bit of patina found in a shed is "Engineer" built??, EVERY deceased persons relatives are selling their Loved ones "Antique" lathe?? How many tols and fttings are specifically for a "Myford" lathe.

  Don't forget, the scorn that was being levied on a specific single cylinder single acting slide valve engine that someone was trying to sell, by quite a few Ex spurts.

   Never heard the term "Buyer Beware" ??

  Regards Ian.
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: pipercub1772 on September 03, 2009, 03:22:00 pm

following on this thread i agree with bogstandard a commercial engine must be the way forward not only have you got some comeback but hopefully a ready supply of spares,withought those your going to need some engineering knowledge and equipment although i have been building models for years its my 1st time with steam ,when i started some 18months ago it seemed relatively straight forward soon found out it wouldn't be, first were to buy a steam plant for a start ,not much available in this country acs not producing cheddar gone Stuart not yet producing the puffin,it was only when i discovered this site about 6 months ago i realized there where other possibilities some i must admit to expensive for me i resorted to Eba in eagerness to find a engine and boiler ,made a good choice with my mcsteam boiler the engine ill reserve my opinion till later at the end of the day like circlip said buyer beware .i would however love to have one of bogstandards engines and hope i could be considered for one if he gets the time to make any
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: gondolier88 on September 03, 2009, 05:05:26 pm
Hi all,

Well as your all such a hard bunch to impress O0, I now have my lathe, awaiting tooling and will be purchasing castings for D10 in a few days, will keep you all posted.

Do you think there is enough interest in a steam engine build to warant a post 'engineering' section regarding the processes I adopt to build it- this will be a learning curve for me too, also no access to a milling machine so will be a true lathe model- I can run a steam plant no problem but I havn't built any up yet- plus I may be able to start a good reputation off- but knowing you lot I doubt it!!! :-))

Greg
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: pipercub1772 on September 03, 2009, 05:17:40 pm
you bet there is  cant wait/
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: bogstandard on September 03, 2009, 06:39:57 pm
Greg,

Don't worry about a milling machine. The D10 was designed to be made on just a lathe and drilling machine, but you may have to get a few accessories for it, and make a few holding jigs.

There are books about that show you exactly how to build a specific Stuart engine just using a lathe and a drill. But if you get really stuck, you have the full facilities here if you ever need it.

With regards to showing the build on here. Everything I have shown seems to have gone down well, but they have basically been model boat orientated. So because it is boat related, I think it will be lapped up and enjoyed by the members.

What you don't want to do is turn the site into a model engineering one.

Here is a link to a chap who has partially completed one

http://www.tudedude.co.uk/workshop/Projects/D10/D10%20Main%20Page.html

Bogs
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: gondolier88 on September 03, 2009, 10:50:11 pm
Hi Bogs,

Thanks for the vote of confidence, I have seen the book advertised on ST website- I think it may be a purchase waiting to happen.

I hear what your saying about keeping the content model boat orientated- I will bear it in mind.

Great link too- his 'high tech'' honing techniques are particularly impressive- if not because of it's simplicity- not so sure about the polished cylinder though- can't see much oil sticking to that at steam temperature- good to see turning between centres too- may be a while before I attempt that, after some practice of course.

I will start the thread on your bidding then gent's, on your heads be it Bogs, Pipercub...... ;)

Greg
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: MONAHAN STEAM MODELS on September 03, 2009, 11:19:52 pm
Boy are there some skeptics out there!
Sorry Proteus but your assumptions are wrong. Um, I disagree. I am responding for no other reason than to put the record straight. I resent the implication/s that we are “guilding the lilly”. We are not! A little bit defensive there are we?

A steam engine is a steam engine and it is difficult to design one that does not look like any other. Wow, Really? Since it's so hard then I eagerly await the next familiar looking engine to roll off your assembly line. None of our products have been reverse engineered. You mean that you designed the very first steam engine in the world? Wow Congrats! Yes the Clyde does look like the Puffin but that is where the similarities stop. Three engineers had a go at drawing up our requirements starting 4 years ago. The last one got the design right and we have polished the design in prototype testing. The design has many superior features as a result of this testing. Such as? If you thought the Puffin was good wait till you try Clyde. This work is also spawning an extension to the range that will be announced shortly.
A similar story applies to the other products we offer.
A boiler is a boiler but I challenge anyone to get one that outperforms ours. I accept your challenge
To Proteus: Steam sealing is important for efficient operation – hence the knurled nut packing gland.
To bogstandard – yes the piston rod is brass. It would be stainless steel if we could source SS rod of the right dimension. Try machining it?

Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: gondolier88 on September 04, 2009, 07:11:40 am
Welcome back Nick, long time no see, everything ok?

By the way, here here! {:-{

Greg
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: bogstandard on September 04, 2009, 11:10:35 am
To bogstandard – yes the piston rod is brass. It would be stainless steel if we could source SS rod of the right dimension.


It is a sorry state of affairs if such a company as you have cannot source materials, or modify an engine to take materials of a slightly different dimension. I do that sort of thing daily.

So in fact making an engine made down to a price, rather than a superior quality, and using materials that will not withstand the harsh running conditions for many years, as stainless would do. In fact, one good knock on the propeller at full steam would most probably see those flimsy brass rods bent like a banana.

With regards to the stuffing glands. My original Puffin has bronze bottom cylinder covers, and with well over a thousand hours steaming over many many years, I replaced them once during that time, and that was only because I was doing a re-ring, not because I was getting excessive steam blow by. Now if that bearing is made of brass, I can see why the steam gland would be needed. It would leak like a sieve after no time, because of the wear in the bearing.

I just can't wait for someone to show me one of these in the flesh, just so that I can compare it with an original Puffin size for size. Then we will see how good your R&D department is.

Stuffing glands, crappy assembly screws and making down to a price don't constitute a complete redesign.

If you would care to send me a sample for analysis (returnable of course), I could put all the forum members at ease when I do find it is a complete redesign rather than a copy.

You are talking to people on here that have many hundreds of years personal experience running and making model steam engines between them, and I can assure you, unless you can convince me otherwise, what you are making is a made down to a price copy of the Puffin.

I would love you to prove me wrong, and I would certainly write a retraction to that effect. But as it is, your argument doesn't look too promising.

Should I expect a little package sometime in the near future?
Maybe containing a normal, off the line Clyde engine for me to measure up and assess.

If the answer is no, then I will assume the worst, and my deductions are correct.


Bogs
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: AlexC on September 04, 2009, 12:36:27 pm
 {-) O0

Don't hold your breath John,


as a long time aquaintance of the original designer of the 'ISIS' (old puffin) he once confessed to me that there was a small, but not fatal, design error/flaw on the original 'ISIS' standard casting.

How strange then that this design, supposedly a brand new design by so called experienced engineers, has the identical error/flaw in exactly the same place. COINCIDENCE?.... not very likely.... about 1 in 1,000,000,000,000 I would guess.
I would wager that if you did get sent a sample it would actually measure up a few thou smaller all over to the original casting... go figure.

As for his other, so called unique designs..... well a certain well known manufacturer will most certainly be taking legal action for design theft. <*< <*< <*< <*<
Incidentally, this same company also hold the design rights for the 'ISIS'. >>:-( <*<

Should be interesting to see the outcome.

Best regards

AlexC :-))
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: bogstandard on September 04, 2009, 01:32:33 pm
Alex,

I sure would expect casting shrinkage, it is a sure fire way of detecting if it is a direct copy off a standard casting.

I have every praise for people keeping steam within the budget of the normal modeller, but things like this really stick in my throat, in fact it isn't particularly cheap.

My hand made batch ones aren't my own design for the basic porting and standard shape, and I tell people as such, but I reckon there is at least 50% of my own design in there to make it more efficient and longer lasting, and to put right a few major design faults.

http://jpduval.free.fr/Moteurs_vapeur_simples/MV%20deo%2010x20.pdf

These are his free plans, but I also bought every other plan he advertises that is relevent to what I do.

http://jpduval.free.fr/Plans_moteurs_vapeur_p1.htm

I should design my own from scratch, but really, it would end up very similar to what I do anyway.

If you want to make a copy of something, then due recognition, and if needed royalties, should be given to the original designer, not just rip it off and call it your own.


John
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: MONAHAN STEAM MODELS on September 04, 2009, 06:26:09 pm
Welcome back Nick, long time no see, everything ok?

By the way, here here! {:-{

Greg

Hi Greg, :-))

Hope all has been well with you and yours.

Wow, it has been a while since I have logged onto the forum here hasn't it? Time goes by fast! Everything has been well thank you! Just been super busy lately with juggling our time between making miniature steam goodies and spending time working on our full size steam equipment. What kind of trouble have you been getting yourself into these days!?

Best Regards,

Nick

Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: MONAHAN STEAM MODELS on September 04, 2009, 08:10:23 pm
Don't want to hijack the the thread but here's a picture of one of our big toys.
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: gondolier88 on September 04, 2009, 08:12:37 pm
Fantastic, I've only ever seen a 4'' model over here- they are such powerful engines- what HP is yours?

Looks beautiful- but then we don't expect any less now!!!! :-))

Greg
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: MONAHAN STEAM MODELS on September 04, 2009, 08:22:21 pm
Thanks Greg!

This one is a 75HP Case traction engine which has been completely restored. We have a 40HP version as well. I'll try to dig up and post some pictures of our 46 foot steam powered stern wheeler too.

Nick
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: gondolier88 on September 04, 2009, 09:08:51 pm
Wow, 75HP, i'm always intrigued by case engines- how did they mangage to extract more HP than any other manufacturer? Higher RPM?

Greg
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: kno3 on September 21, 2009, 10:38:01 pm
{-) O0

Don't hold your breath John,


as a long time aquaintance of the original designer of the 'ISIS' (old puffin) he once confessed to me that there was a small, but not fatal, design error/flaw on the original 'ISIS' standard casting.

How strange then that this design, supposedly a brand new design by so called experienced engineers, has the identical error/flaw in exactly the same place. COINCIDENCE?.... not very likely.... about 1 in 1,000,000,000,000 I would guess.
I would wager that if you did get sent a sample it would actually measure up a few thou smaller all over to the original casting... go figure.

As for his other, so called unique designs..... well a certain well known manufacturer will most certainly be taking legal action for design theft. <*< <*< <*< <*<
Incidentally, this same company also hold the design rights for the 'ISIS'. >>:-( <*<

Should be interesting to see the outcome.

Best regards

AlexC :-))

This makes me curious too. Waht is the flaw in the Isis/Puffins?

Anyway, interesting thread. I too wonder how one can claim an identical copy is original design?
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: Underpressure on November 07, 2009, 08:22:44 am
Sorry about the late posting on this thread, but I'm new  :embarrassed:

What IS the story on this engine? I see them listed with a number of models shops and on 'the bay', and the implication earlier in the thread is that it might not be as robust as the Puffin.

Does anyone own one? Is there a test report anywhere?

I am not in the market for a new plant, I already have too many engines and not enough boats, I'm just interested.

Neil
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: andywright on November 27, 2009, 08:17:17 am
Sorry about the late posting on this thread, but I'm new  :embarrassed:

What IS the story on this engine? I see them listed with a number of models shops and on 'the bay', and the implication earlier in the thread is that it might not be as robust as the Puffin.

Does anyone own one? Is there a test report anywhere?

I am not in the market for a new plant, I already have too many engines and not enough boats, I'm just interested.

Neil

I wish I was in the same position, I have one boat which I would dearly like to steam, but can't find the right plant at the right price.
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: andywright on November 27, 2009, 08:50:45 am
Re the above post,I'm loking for something to steam this, preferably able to reverse with radio control

http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3755.msg36280;topicseen#msg36280

Andy
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: kiwimodeller on November 27, 2009, 11:26:36 am
Andy, I am a fan of V twins in boats like yours just because they are so reliable and simple. If you are wanting a V Twin oscillator with plenty of grunt and controllable forward and reverse and throttle from one channel then I would reccomend the P & M Research V Twin made in USA. The best place to buy it is from John at The Steam Chest. His store is http://stores.ebay.com/The-Steam-Chest and the engine is  http://cgi.ebay.com/Live-Steam-Engine-Marine-Twin-FULLY-MACHINED-Kit_W0QQitemZ350253228134QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item518cb82066.  he does not mind doing single items and always does a good deal on any extras such as lubricators which are miles cheaper than I can get them in the UK. If you want something a little more sophisticated then I can offer you a New Zealand made 5/8" by 5/8" double acting slide valve V Twin with reversing gear. You can have it as an unmachined kit of parts (you will need a small lathe) or as soon as we get some more machined we will offer it as a completed engine. These have been sold in this country for several years and there are lots of satisfied customers. Although the pound does not seem very strong at present neither is the US$ so you could probably get a good deal either way. Hope this helps, let me know if you want pictures etc. Cheers, Ian.
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: Underpressure on November 27, 2009, 01:44:56 pm
Re the above post,I'm loking for something to steam this, preferably able to reverse with radio control

http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3755.msg36280;topicseen#msg36280

Andy

I have to say that model marine steam engines seem to have got very expensive since I was last sailing and the choice has reduced. What size is the launch Andy, that will give the best idea as to the size and type of plant that would suit.

Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: andywright on November 27, 2009, 03:31:38 pm
Andy, I am a fan of V twins in boats like yours just because they are so reliable and simple. If you are wanting a V Twin oscillator with plenty of grunt and controllable forward and reverse and throttle from one channel then I would reccomend the P & M Research V Twin made in USA. The best place to buy it is from John at The Steam Chest. His store is http://stores.ebay.com/The-Steam-Chest and the engine is  http://cgi.ebay.com/Live-Steam-Engine-Marine-Twin-FULLY-MACHINED-Kit_W0QQitemZ350253228134QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item518cb82066.  he does not mind doing single items and always does a good deal on any extras such as lubricators which are miles cheaper than I can get them in the UK. If you want something a little more sophisticated then I can offer you a New Zealand made 5/8" by 5/8" double acting slide valve V Twin with reversing gear. You can have it as an unmachined kit of parts (you will need a small lathe) or as soon as we get some more machined we will offer it as a completed engine. These have been sold in this country for several years and there are lots of satisfied customers. Although the pound does not seem very strong at present neither is the US$ so you could probably get a good deal either way. Hope this helps, let me know if you want pictures etc. Cheers, Ian.

Thanks for that. I have been watching the twin on ebay, i like the engine but it is quite large for my launch, allthough the launch is 42 inches by 11 inches. The engine will fit with slight modification to the floors inside, but it is a favourite.
I like the in line twins, but they just seem more expensive. I don't hav access to a lathe, nor have I done any lathe work since I was in School  40 yrars ago.
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: andywright on November 27, 2009, 03:35:27 pm
I have to say that model marine steam engines seem to have got very expensive since I was last sailing and the choice has reduced. What size is the launch Andy, that will give the best idea as to the size and type of plant that would suit.



Hi my launch is 42 inches by 11 inches beam, its a Metcalfe models solent, a nice beamy boat which will accept about 3-4lbs of steam gear without being overweight, presently i have an electric motor in it with two battries eighing 3lbs and about a pound of lead. I have been looking at a Maccsteam 31/2 inch inch boiler.

http://www.maccsteam.com/Vertical_boilers/3_and_half_inch.html

Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: Underpressure on November 27, 2009, 03:55:12 pm
Hi my launch is 42 inches by 11 inches beam, its a Metcalfe models solent, a nice beamy boat which will accept about 3-4lbs of steam gear without being overweight, presently i have an electric motor in it with two battries eighing 3lbs and about a pound of lead. I have been looking at a Maccsteam 31/2 inch inch boiler.

http://www.maccsteam.com/Vertical_boilers/3_and_half_inch.html



The Macsteam boilers look good and seem very reasonably priced, the stinger comes when you go over 3 1/2 " diameter. I'm sure the price reflects the additional material costs.

42" is a good size and gives you a few choices of engine. I guess it depends if you want an oscillator for simplicity or a valved engine which would look more scale.

Oscillator wise, the Stuart (ex-Cheddar) Puffin would do the job, as I think would the Graupner engine, looking at the specs. The P&M V twin Kiwi suggested would also do the job, again from looking at specs. On the valved engine side I only have limited experience, but I think the TVR1A engine, available from a variety of sources (see Macc Models link on Macsteam web page) would easily cope as would the Anton engines used by MH&B these days. You can see them on the Westbourne Models web site.

Of course the option of watching 'the bay' like mad and asking for opinions on this forum is always open to you.

I am sure you will get more suggestions from other forum members and of course if you are able to machine from castings, then a whole load more options become available, especially from Stuart and Reeves.

Neil
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: andywright on November 27, 2009, 08:29:13 pm
UNDERPRESSURE

The 3 1/2 inch is good for the Graham VR1A , and Cheddar Puffin, and similar engines, it will also drive the P&M Research twin, so luckily no need to spend more than £300 on the boiler, not that my launch would take much more dissplacement wise. The inline twins are like you say much more scale and probably a bit less steam hungry, but the price, the Anton engine is an absolute gem of workmanship, I have held one in Westbourne models when they first came out, in retrospect I should have bought one then when my wife said if you want it have it. The Monahan Steam models Sparrow and heron also look vey nice and the Sparrow would also fit but what a price, I guess you get what you pay for, and then the P7M v twin is also a lovely looking engine, and probably what I will go for , I have also been sent details of this
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x196/lightshipman/4.jpg)
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x196/lightshipman/3.jpg)

I am awaiting more details on this one.

Andy
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: kno3 on November 27, 2009, 09:15:31 pm
Is this a Stuart?
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: Underpressure on November 27, 2009, 10:02:54 pm
Is this a Stuart?

Yes it is, and very nice it is too.

If it's a fair price, I would grab it.
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: andywright on November 28, 2009, 09:36:27 am
Yes it is, and very nice it is too.

If it's a fair price, I would grab it.

In you opinion would this turn a 55mm prop in a 42 inch launch then?
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: kiwimodeller on November 28, 2009, 10:05:19 am
Andy, if you are keen on inline twins I would grab the Graham Industries TVR1A twin. I have sold several and they are easy to assemble and a little smaller physically than the V Twins we have been talking about. They really look the part and go well. You could probably get away with a slightly smaller boiler too as long as you stuck to a horizontal one. They are also relatively inexpensive if you buy direct from Robert at http://www.grahamind.com/  Just remember to order the marine flywheel separately as it does not come with the engine. The only drawback is that you need a third servo and some linkages to work the reverse but if you went with a 2.4G radio you would have a great setup, no interference worries, plenty of channels, maybe add in a steam whistle, use the throttle valve from Polly Engineering, put a nice canopy on the boat and have a great time. Cheers, Ian.
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: Underpressure on November 28, 2009, 10:53:19 am
In you opinion would this turn a 55mm prop in a 42 inch launch then?

Andy, if it's properly put together, and it certainly looks like it is, then yes, it will easily turn a 55mm prop.

Ian, interesting what you say about the TVR1A, I keep looking at them as they are so well priced and wondering if they are up to the task, as all the youtube video's I have seen are engines being bench run.
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: andywright on November 28, 2009, 02:19:09 pm
Got the boiler!!!!, managed to get a brand new Maccsteam  3 1/2 inch boiler this morning complete with gas tank, done a buoyancy test in the fish pond, had to put 3lb of lead in the launch to get her down to the waterline, so lots of room for extras,canopy, skipper passenger, barking dog!! oily water separator.!!!! This was with the original electric motor still fitted as well. I can now sell my JJC steam generator.

Andy
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: Underpressure on November 28, 2009, 07:37:38 pm
Sounds like you were in the right place at the right time, where did you get the boiler from?

So, now all you need is an engine  :-))

I am converting a large tug from electric to steam. One of the best moments was removing the smoke generator from the funnel.

Neil
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: andywright on November 28, 2009, 08:14:08 pm
I've just taken my JJC smoke generator and electric motor together with the ESC out of my launch, it is a great feeling, the launch looks a million times better with the boiler sat in it instead of batteries!!!, even her indoors reckons the spend is value for moeny, now that is support!! Also bought a TRV1A locally in kit form, unfortunately can't have it till christmas, never mind i got the boiler to play with. i bought the TVV1A kit from Miskin models near Llantrisant South Wales.
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: HS93 (RIP) on November 28, 2009, 08:35:47 pm
have you got a RC  Stearn valve for it to controle your speed ?

Peter
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: Underpressure on November 28, 2009, 10:10:00 pm
I've just taken my JJC smoke generator and electric motor together with the ESC out of my launch, it is a great feeling, the launch looks a million times better with the boiler sat in it instead of batteries!!!, even her indoors reckons the spend is value for moeny, now that is support!! Also bought a TRV1A locally in kit form, unfortunately can't have it till christmas, never mind i got the boiler to play with. i bought the TVV1A kit from Miskin models near Llantrisant South Wales.

Oh that's coming together nicely.

You will need a throttle valve, to control the speed of the TVR1A. Polly Model Engineering do a nice simple little valve that won't break the bank.

I hadn't realised Miskin were so local. I'll have to drop in next time I'm working in Cardiff.

Neil
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: kiwimodeller on November 30, 2009, 09:58:00 am
Andy, if it's properly put together, and it certainly looks like it is, then yes, it will easily turn a 55mm prop.

Ian, interesting what you say about the TVR1A, I keep looking at them as they are so well priced and wondering if they are up to the task, as all the youtube video's I have seen are engines being bench run.

I have sold three of the Gage twins from Graham Ind in recent weeks and all three people have got back to me to say they are really happy with them. Only one is in a boat so far but all have commented on how precisely the engines were made and how well they went together. They look small and delicate but remember they are a 1/2" bore by 5/8" stroke double acting twin so they should have good grunt. I have the single cylinder version in a 37"  open steam launch with a 6" x 3" boiler and that is pulling a 55mm 3 blade prop and I think it would pull an even bigger prop. In my opinion it is hard to put too big a prop behind a steam engine. With a small prop that lets them rev they gobble up lots of steam whereas they are much more economical lugging a big prop even if the pressure needs to be a bit higher. I would be starting with a 65mm 4 blade coarse pitch prop with the twin and thinking it might even need to go bigger.  Hope this helps, cheers, Ian.
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: wideawake on November 30, 2009, 10:14:01 am

I hadn't realised Miskin were so local. I'll have to drop in next time I'm working in Cardiff.

Neil

Miskin Models (John Gittins) is based in The Model House in Llantrisant.   I stay in Llan with friends (now I've let my cottage in Cross Inn) when I work at the beeb in Llandaff and contacted Miskin Models via ebay with a view to collecting items rather than having them posted.   He seemed less than enthusiastic about this idea, seemingly concerned that what I was asking was to buy outside ebay (which I wasn't).   In the end I gave up and paid postage, which was very cheap anyway.

This is not a post critical of Miskin Models.  The items I bought are fine, email comm's were very quick and the postage charges are very reasonable.   It's just passing on a sense that they are a mail-order company and want to keep it that way.

Cheers

Guy
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: Underpressure on November 30, 2009, 11:20:36 am
Thanks for that Guy, maybe I'll just stick to mail order then!

Ian, I was advised a long time ago by Ian Holland at Cheddar Models to use the biggest prop I could fit on the boat. He also suggested Rivabo props as being good for steam models. I was using a very nice but rather expensive Prop Shop 3 blade at the time on a tug and the Rivabo both improved performance and running time.

I think I must get myself a TVR1A and have a little play.

Neil
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: Neil on March 18, 2010, 10:08:52 am
Has anyone thought of looking toward Australia for this engine?
It's called a Clyde, and engineered by Ministeam.com.au
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: HS93 (RIP) on March 18, 2010, 10:52:35 am
????????      have you read the title of this post or read the start of it, I think that answers your question.?  also a few other post on the subject of this coppied engine.


Peter
Title: Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
Post by: Steam Head on March 23, 2010, 09:46:05 am
Look at the third post on the first page of this thread, then here.
http://www.miniaturesteammodels.com/prod56.htm
Can you see a difference? I didn't think so.
Sorry that I got the address wrong first off, then my wonderful mouse with side buttons posted for me.
S.H.