Model Boat Mayhem

The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Steam => Topic started by: Ted Welding on September 27, 2011, 05:21:06 pm

Title: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: Ted Welding on September 27, 2011, 05:21:06 pm
‘Natterer’ – A shipbuilding Odyssey?


In 1977 I set out to build a steam launch.  In 2010 I finally finished it. 

So what had I accomplished in the intervening 33 years?  Well,quite a lot – I learnt how to machine metal; how to draught a boat’s lines; how to build a wooden hull; how to install a steam plant and fairly simple electronics; and how to stop bleeding and apply sticking plasters.

A lot of you will know Bryan Young, a very regular contributor to the Mayhem Forum, and a very good friend of mine.  He’s badgered me for a long time to write up the build and post photos of ‘Natterer’.  If Bryan thinks she’s good enough, then who am I to argue?

I had written a partial write-up many years ago, to put in my club newsletter (circulation at least ten people – a very small club, but beautifully formed), so I’ve used this as the starting point, and added further sections and photos to suit.

Hope you like it!  I’ll post a couple of photos now, then add more text as we go along
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: logoman on September 27, 2011, 05:56:53 pm
very nice indeed, i'd love to see her on the water without the dolls.
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: gondolier88 on September 27, 2011, 09:35:14 pm
Hi Ted,

Congratulations on your completion, it's beautiful! Named after your good lady in the traditional way.....?

Based on SL 'Bat' predominantly I guess? I love the hull form in carvel with the fixings showing. You've done a great job on the plant, it is very neat and compact indeed.

It's hard to tell from the photos; how big is the launch?

Greg
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: derekwarner on September 28, 2011, 12:29:37 am
Hullo Ted...a very interesting engine/boiler build  :-))

1. remote water gauge...a second water gauge?
2. remote elctronic water sensing?
3. a boiler water make up pump under the wooden box?
4. two gauges?

I am sure many Mayhem members would like to see more images of the engine & boiler setup........& read the detail.....

Congratulations.....Derek

Oh yes........the hull is a classic too.... O0
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: KBIO on September 28, 2011, 07:29:35 am
Hello!
Very nice indeed! Absolutly perfect! :-))
I would think like Logoman that the launch is a bit crowded with dolls. :embarrassed: Because, in fact, we love boats here, but dolls.................... %)
And I never understood how the old ladies could go sailing with such dresses and hats and wigs,..................... %% But... %%I am!
Congratulations Ted and we would like to see more.
Cheers! ok2
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: Ted Welding on September 28, 2011, 09:46:47 am
Hi All,

Many thanks for the positive comments!
Natterer is six feet long (1.8 m)
Broadly based on 'Bat', but with enough changes that I felt I couldn't call her that anymore.
She has an ABC boiler control system, and a host of bits and pieces crammed under the deck
She looks empty on the water without the crew, and the original boat is only 27' long (8.1 m), so yes, she is fairly crowded!
I've written a whole series on the build-up, which will hopefully answer all the detail questions as we go along, so will be delighted if you persevere!
Bryan tells me I've reduced the pictures too much, so detail is lost when blown up - will attend to that!
Have to rush now, but will try and post the first instalment of the build tonight

Regards

Ted
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: steamboatmodel on September 28, 2011, 06:32:14 pm
Will definatly be watching for more posts.
Regards,
Gerald.
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: Ted Welding on September 28, 2011, 07:06:19 pm
First instalment! I never intended when I started to build Natterer that I would someday write up the story, so photos in the early days are few and not necessarily of good quality - but they do improve!  Hope you like the 'narrative' style!

‘Natterer’ – A shipbuilding Odyssey?

Ann, the better third, made a serious error of judgement in 1977 to compound the one she had made in 1974 when she married me. Despite all the warning signals that she had seen in three years of marriage, she failed to recognise she had a fanatical modeller on her hands, and asked me what I wanted for Christmas.

Well this was too good an opportunity to miss, and it germinated the seed of an idea I had been toying with for years- I wanted to build a steam launch!  So she gulped, looked at our finances, and bought me a Unimat SL lathe.   

As luck would have it, that year we had a holiday in the Cotswolds, and wouldn’t  Henley-on-Thames be a nice place to visit, and look! - there might be an interesting shop over there, down that little alley we can’t quite see from here, but if we go over the road……?

Yes, Stuart Turner Ltd still had their premises there in 1977, before they decamped for the Channel Isles, and before the day was out I was the proud possessor of a set of castings for a Stuart Launch engine, and Ann was £19.80 lighter in pocket with a suspicion she had been out-manoeuvred. (Incidentally, that same set of castings would now cost £282 !)

Now the brighter ones amongst you will have twigged that there appears to be an element of cart before horse here, as no mention has been made of a boat to put said engine in. That’s right, Ted had got it xxxx about face, and hadn’t got a clue as to what sort or size of boat he would eventually build!
That didn’t matter really, as I considered that the heart of the project was the engine, and that a suitable hull would crop up eventually.

So off to the engine, and the realisation that I was going to have to learn a lot of new techniques in order to machine a relatively large engine on a lathe that was basically tiny. First rule of learning - start on a simple part, where it wouldn’t matter if I ruined it - so what do I start with? - That’s right - The cylinder block!

No, I’m pleased to say I didn’t ruin it, but the lathe was very hard pressed to accept such a block of cast iron, and I had to resort to machining surfaces true, but to nominal dimensions, and make matching parts to suit.
 
It soon became apparent, as my skills improved, that there was no way I was going to be able to mount the cylinder block on the lathe in order to machine the cylinder bores (two of them, each 1” bore and stroke) as there just wasn’t enough swing over the bedplate, and I didn’t have a boring bar.

Fortunately, my neighbour was a shop floor manager with a machine company manufacturing high speed looms, and he came to the rescue.
‘What tolerance do you want it bored to, Ted’
-‘Er, it doesn’t really matter, Robbie, as I’ll just turn the pistons to suit’
The silence that ensued spoke volumes as 30 years of machining experience looked down his nose at the unpleasant smell of 30 days bodging.
‘I’ll give it to one of my apprentices then, as a training exercise’

Three days later, the cylinder block returned, with the pointed observation that it had been turned to 1”, with a tolerance of + .0001” – that’s right – a tenth of a thou!  I took him at his word.

After this, machining proceeded briskly, with bedplate, journals, columns fairly flowing off the lathe.
I learnt how to drill and tap; what to do when the tap broke in the hole (Throw away and start again - luckily it was a small part!) and I even learnt how to silver solder and put out the ensuing conflagration.

But all this time, I was aware that the real test of my new found skills was fast looming on the horizon - the crankshaft.

The crankshaft was a single casting, with two cranks at 90 degrees. It would just fit on the lathe, and I was able to machine the three main bearings with no real problems. The fun began with the machining of the offset cranks. Luckily, I had picked up a book in my travels which suggested the solution, and I obtained a 2” length of 2” diameter brass round, into which I drilled an offset hole the diameter of the crank. The hole was drilled offset by the throw of the crank, and two short dowels were set into the end of the round. This enabled me to clamp the end of the crank into the round, secured by two grubscrews, with the dowels securely locating the crank web such that the crank journal (The big-end) was now firmly held on the centreline of the lathe. Bingo! - the big ends could now be turned!

After that little triumph, mere bagatelles such as double eccentrics and Stephenson reversing links held no fears for me, and the engine rapidly came together. It even looked vaguely like the picture on the box! The engine was assembled with the exception of the connecting rods and pistons, when fate dealt a hand, and we decided the time had come to move house.

The new house was 120 years old and looked it - major work was required. The engine was wrapped up and put away for the duration - it was to be seven long years before the project once again surfaced.

Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: derekwarner on September 28, 2011, 09:36:35 pm
Ted....first installment accepted  :-))

I look forward to a lot more exciting reading .....I also like the droll sense of humour  {-) {-) {-) at every second turn....... Derek
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: MichaelK on September 29, 2011, 09:14:10 am
That's awesome.
The dolls actually give the boat a scale size.
In the photo, it could be anywhere between 3ft and full size.
Mick
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: Ted Welding on October 05, 2011, 05:58:46 pm
Time for instalment 2!

This instalment may puzzle you, as I've already said that 'Natterer' is based on 'Bat', but I'm talking about 'Dolly'  All will be explained in instalment 3, but you'll have to wait a few days for that!

Still at design stage at this point, so no pictures of the actual build, but have included a couple of more shots of 'Natterer' on the water, together with a picture of 'Dolly'. I regret I don't know who took the photo of 'Dolly', so cannot attribute.  Apologies!

 ‘Natterer’ – A shipbuilding Odyssey? – Part 2

‘Why do we need to move? What’s wrong with this house? We can’t afford it! Give me one good reason why we should move! - (Series of dull thuds, reminiscent of heavy objects meeting flesh) - Alright, we’ll move, but please stop!’

We found a house, with an acre of ground (Vehicle storage said Ted, Goats said Ann), and a proper walk-in room in the roof (Bedroom said Ann, Workshop said Ted). The goats duly arrived, but the amount of work required on the house meant the workshop/bedroom remained as a store-room, and no modelling took place for seven long years.

During this time however, we discovered that Mecca for steam boat enthusiasts, namely the Windermere Steamboat Museum. What a feast of delights! Steamboats of all shapes and sizes wherever you looked! The graceful lines of the Victorian launches, the colours of the timbers and above all the sight and sound of operating steam engines took our breath away. We were particularly attracted to “DOLLY”, the oldest working steamboat in the world, which had spent some eighty years on a lake bed after being nipped in the ice.

I approached the museum, and was readily given permission to spend a couple of days measuring her up and taking numerous photographs. They even had a small-scale set of lines available! Once home, I set to with slide-rule and drawing board and converted those lines into a working set of drawings. This was where the problems started! You will remember that in the last episode I admitted I was doing things backside foremost, and had started with the engine! Now said engine was quite big (and heavy) and clearly wasn’t going to like being shoe-horned into a two-foot hull. In fact, when I had finished all the measuring and scaling the hull ended up at about 72 inches ( 1830 mm to the youngsters)

Alright, so it was going to be a big boat! That wasn’t a problem in itself, as I had always wanted a big hull, but the problems arose when I worked out that the model’s calculated displacement to waterline was about 5 lbs less than the all-up weight would be! Calculations also revealed that the metacentric height was going to be in the region of  3/8 of an inch, which when combined with the nearly hemispherical mid-ships section meant she was going to be rather tender and roll like a pig in mud. (or similar – substitute as you see fit)

The solution was to subtly rework the sections to give a greater displacement, with  additional buoyancy being placed in the quarter buttocks, so as to increase the metacentric height, and reduce the roll rate. On paper, it would work, but the weight of the hull and engine plant would be critical, with no room for error. The only other solution would have been to increase the hull length to seven feet, but that was starting to be ridiculous!

On with the motley! – Have you ever tried to produce drawings for a 72” hull on a 40” drawing board? – Difficult. As I started to scale up the museum’s lines drawing, it became apparent that all was not well, and that the drawing was highly suspect. A good excuse for a further trip, and a days’ measuring. Back home, and I was able to translate the new information onto the drawings and fair the lines up properly. Incidentally, if you are ever having to prepare a set of drawings, remember a hull is three-dimensional, and cannot be adequately defined with just a profile and sections on a two dimensional drawing – it is essential to add both futtock and buttock lines to the drawing. The profile, sections and buttocks may appear to give a true form, but attempting to fair in the futtocks will soon highlight any discrepancies.

The final drawings were prepared at work on an eight foot table, where I coerced all the members of my drainage design team into holding down a six foot spline as I inked in the lines!

It was 1988, only eleven years after the start of this tale, and at last! I had a set of working drawings! At last I had a stock of well seasoned lime! At last I had an engine! At last I...........don’t think I like the boat any more, said Ann.
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: Ted Welding on October 08, 2011, 05:11:31 pm
Getting there!
Episode 3 follows, together with a couple of photos showing boiler and engine - a bit out of sequence in the build, but it ties in to the text.
We'll be into the build proper in episode 4


‘Natterer’ – A shipbuilding Odyssey? – Part 3


You could have heard a feather drop – ‘What do you mean you don’t like it? What’s wrong with it? You’ve fallen in love with a bat?- Oh, you mean the steam launch ‘Bat’’
I suppose I should have realised, as we are both members of Durham Bat Group (Yes, really, the little furry things that fly at night) and once she had seen this little boat with ‘Bat’ on the bows, that was it! It wasn’t really that she didn’t like ‘Dolly’; more a case of preferred ‘Bat’.

Now model steam launches are expensive to build, so the more realistic amongst you will realise that it is very necessary to keep the better half (or third in my case) fully committed to the project. That is to say, what the chancellor wants, the chancellor gets!

Actually, I have to admit I was in two minds about ‘Dolly’ in any case, as even with all the ‘modifications’ I had made to the hull lines the calculated all-up weight of the boat was still very close to the waterline displacement, and you inevitably find the weight increasing during the build. In addition, the unusual lines of ‘Dolly’, and the still relatively small metacentric height meant her stability was likely to be poor.

So I wasn’t really too worried about going back to the drawing board, and we went across again to Windermere (any excuse) to have a close look at ‘Bat’. I’d always liked the look of her, and had even bought the small scale set of lines from the museum some years before.
Close study of these, and a couple of days spent measuring up the hull confirmed that she was likely to be a far better bet in terms of stability, so a start was made on some full-size (model) drawings.

I used the same techniques as for ‘Dolly’ and again ended up with a six foot hull! That was fine, but I started to run into a few problems with regard to the boiler, as whilst ‘Dolly’ had a straightforward Scotch Marine, ‘Bat’ employed a Lune Valley paraffin-fired boiler for fast steam raising. It would have been impossible for me to duplicate this with my rudimentary boiler-making skills, so I had to set to and design a suitable vertical boiler for gas firing. The extra weight of this, and the extra height to allow all the necessary internals to be stuffed in meant that I had to increase the draught by about half an inch, but this had the advantage of giving me extra displacement and a more stable hull.

So far, so good! The small-scale set of lines weren’t too inaccurate this time, and I was soon able to push and pull them around to produce a hull shape that was reasonably in line with the original.  The scale ended up at 1 to 4.5, but everything was going to have to be made by me, so it didn’t really matter.

By now we were in 1996, having started in 1977! Just too many other things to do! I had bought a huge stack of good quality lime timber sometime around the early eighties, but in 1996 I had a stroke of luck when Bryan Young, a very good friend and well-known contributor to the Mayhem Forum offered me some old mahogany flooring in strips about 80 x 20 mm by 2000 long at a nominal cost. The boat really cried out to be built in mahogany, but I will not buy new mahogany on principle, as we are doing so much damage to the rain-forests. I don’t have the same problems with re-cycled materials, provided I know the provenance.

The band-saw and the Unimat lathe, set up as a planer, reduced the majority of the timber to 20 x 3mm strips, albeit rather slowly, but with less wasted wood than having it done commercially. This was an important consideration, as I worked out there was just enough material to do the job.

So far, so good. Then in 1997 I happened to visit Bryan again. (The same friend who had supplied the timber – keep up!) ‘Have you seen the boiler for sale at Allen’s?’ (Model Shop in Whitley Bay) Visit cut short, and a quick dash for the model shop. The boiler was a Scotch Marine Dryback, Inglis modification, and the workmanship was superb. The only trouble was that it was a horizontal boiler, whilst ‘Bat’ should really have a vertical, as noted above. On the other hand, the construction of the boiler was the one part of the build that was really putting me off, and in reality was probably the reason why this project was taking so long.
Allen allowed me to take the boiler home, and an intensive evenings’ measurement and calculation ensued. The boiler’s capacity was found to be adequate, and very careful calculation showed that I could actually get it into the hull. Close inspection confirmed the workmanship as being as good as anything I had ever seen, the silver soldering being incredibly good.
The chancellor disappeared to work on the household budgets, and agreed it was an exceptional purchase at £195, when I had commercial quotes for my designed boiler in excess of £1000, and a quick pricing of the materials and all the fittings that came with it was in excess of £500. (And these were at 1997 prices!)
That did it. I bought the boiler the very next day, just ahead of three other people who were very interested.

By this stage, I’d come to the conclusion that since I had modified the hull lines, changed the boiler and decided that I didn’t want to paint the hull, I could hardly claim she was a model of ‘Bat’!  So we had a think, and better third (aka The Chancellor, and therefore highly involved with this boat) suggested we called her ‘Natterer’, the name of another species of bat.  I rather liked the idea, particularly as it brought to mind the distinctive sound of a steam plant happily ‘nattering’ along.  So ‘Natterer’ it was to be, representing a typical Victorian gentleman’s steam launch of about 1890. The steam launches on Windermere were largely owned and run by the newly wealthy Manchester industrialists, both for pleasure and to demonstrate their success. The boats created a “Golden Age” of steamboating on the lake.
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: Ted Welding on October 13, 2011, 05:31:15 pm
OK, Ready to go with Part 4, where we actually start to put the thing together.
A few more photos just to show you the set-up on the building board


‘Natterer’ – A shipbuilding Odyssey? – Part 4


The wood for the boat was ready, so a start was made with the keel, stem, stern and deadwood. Quite an assembly in itself, as it all had to be scarfed together, and then the rabbet cut in to take the ends of the planks and the garboard strake (the one next to the keel). This boat was going to be built as full size practice! No particular problems with this bit, just a need to keep everything absolutely square otherwise the boat was going to go round in circles. The prop shaft was also built in at this stage.

Bryan, the same friend who supplied me with the timber also gave me the building board - All seven foot of it! The centreline was scribed on it, and the positions of all the sixteen shadows (the temporary formers over which the shell would be built) marked on. The shadows themselves were cut from the old doors I’d saved when I replaced all the kitchen units two years previously (Never waste anything) These were all cut out on the bandsaw and screwed in place on the building board, before dropping the keel assembly into place on top, the hull being built upside down.

The garboard and gunwhale strakes were then trimmed and fastened in place over the shadows. These are the only constant width strakes in the boat (carvel built), and once they were in place, I could measure up the distance between these two strakes at every shadow position, divide the distance by the number of strakes I wanted to put in, and then mark and taper every strake to suit. Easy done, Eh? - Well actually no, as a boat’s hull has lots of ins and outs, and while the above may hold true for the mid-sections and the bows, it certainly wouldn’t work for the stern, where I had to use stealers next to the keel, and joggle planks together under the counter to make them all fit.

Anyway, the next job was to glue all the strakes in place, and I found that as the boat was so large, and each strake needed so much temporary clamping (fourteen G-clamps and as many screws) I couldn’t use my normal five minute epoxy, and had to resort to long set Araldite. This meant I could only fix one strake per night, and there were  thirty-two of them!
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: gondolier88 on October 13, 2011, 09:40:13 pm
Hi Ted,

I'm interested in why you didn't taper the sheerstrake to give yourself more room to fit the planks in without stealers?

Also, what timber did you use for the keel and stem please?

Is that the cartoon map of Windermere I spy on the wall behind too....?

Greg
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: Bernhard on October 14, 2011, 06:25:23 am
Hi...What a great Boat and steam plant you have don. :-))...bot.......Please  {:-{take all this dolls out...the don't do the boat eny good at-all...what a shame, it is just before i see the dolls more than the launch ...one good captain will be perfect....bot you have don a great job
p.s.... if you wont a captain like this,,,,i have a extra one you can get,,,,,just let me know,,,

Regards Bernhard
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: Ted Welding on October 14, 2011, 03:48:35 pm
Life is a little less hectic and I've now got a chance to answer some questions properly (That's the trouble with retirement - you never get a day off!)

So Hi Greg -
I left the sheerstrake constant depth as the boat has a 'rubbing strip' (for want of a better description) down the length of the boat at a constant measurement down from the gunwhale - made life easier, and I would still have had to use stealers anyway at the stern.
The timber is all mahogany
Yes, It's the Windermere map!

Bernhard:
The question of whether to put a crew on board is always going to incite argument amongst modellers - 'Natterer' just looks plain 'wrong' sailing without some sort of a crew, so no apologies for that. she actually looks 'right' on the water with the crew - must be something to do with scale effect. 'Natterer' is also 6 feet or 1800mm long, and the scale works out at 1 to 4.5 . This would mean the scale height for a Victorian male would be in the region of 15.5" or 390mm - there's not a lot of figures around at that scale.
Having said that, I like your captain - what size is he?

Going even further back-
Derek -

1. remote water gauge...a second water gauge? - Yes, there are two gauges - one is visible when sailing, but the other is internal and has the electronic water sensing thingummy wrapped around it, connected to the Automatic Boiler Control.
2. remote elctronic water sensing? - As question 1
3. a boiler water make up pump under the wooden box? - No, the boiler pump is on the far side of the engine. The box hides three servos and a 15-pin plug which allows me to lift the whole steam plant out in one go (with much huffing and puffing) All is explained in more detail further into the build.
4. two gauges? - Ah well, I had two gauges, and she looks rather better with two on display! They both measure the boiler pressure.

Hope the above answers your questions - keep watching the posts!

Ted
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: thelegos on October 14, 2011, 04:37:49 pm
Hello Ted,
I've been avidly following pattermaker (Mike's) Wide-A-Wake build and just worked my way through 'Natterer' - an odyssey indeed.
Thank you for the time and trouble you've taken to share your work, it's not only entertaining and informative but a pleasure to see such skills . Bryan did the right thing in persuading you to put fingers to keyboard  O0
Roger
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: Ted Welding on October 14, 2011, 04:58:43 pm
Many thanks, Roger,
It's nice to know your efforts are appreciated!

Ted
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: Bernhard on October 14, 2011, 06:28:12 pm
hi...ok...that is a big boat......... the captain is  around 8inch,,,,,,,, here he sit in my 51 inch launch..........sorry bot i still think he will look better   :-)

Regards Bernhard,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: ooyah/2 on October 14, 2011, 10:13:23 pm
Hi Ted,

What a great build, not only a great modeler but also a great story teller.
As a new member to the forum don't be put of by one members comments on your crew, I personally and no doubt many others prefer the Victorian figures rather than a Salty Old Sea captain who in my opinion would be completely out of place.
Your figures capture the Victorian period well, mind you I don't think the Victorian owner would let a lady sail his launch, or is it just that the helms man needs a hair cut.

Keep up the story, well done.
George.
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: Ted Welding on October 15, 2011, 10:07:35 am
Thanks for your kind comments, George!
My Victorian gentleman is actually steering Natterer, by means of a wheel on the back of the midships deck section! - I quite agree he would be most unlikely to let his wife get anywhere near the machinery, and she would probably be horrified at the mere suggestion (and that's not a sexist remark!)
Actually, George the captain should maybe be called Georgina, as we couldn't find a male face of the required size, and so had to use a female, generously endowed with whiskers - but then how do you account for the two children up forrard?
The figures will be covered in more detail in a later section.

Ted
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: ooyah/2 on October 15, 2011, 11:49:38 am
Hi Ted,
Weans are Weans, whether big or small, you have still captured the Victorian aura on the launch and the period.
I can picture it on the Thames on a nice warm day or even up in the posh end of Windermere where the wealthy Manchester and Liverpool merchants made there money on the backs of the working class and could afford such luxuries.
Look forward to your further postings well done with the boat and engine, any idea who made the boiler, not often that you see an INGLIS type.
George.
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: gondolier88 on October 15, 2011, 06:12:41 pm
Reminiscent perhaps....

The launch is SL Wraith, a Thornycroft launch built on the Thames and brought upto Windermere by Alfred Sladen before he designed Otto and Elfin.

Greg
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: Ted Welding on October 15, 2011, 07:34:37 pm
Hi Bernard,
Many thanks for posting the photos of your launch and crusty old salt. She looks like a working boat, in which case he is very appropriate. However, Natterer is a rich Victorian gentleman's pleasure launch, and as such would look wrong with him on board.
Regretfully, he is also too small for Natterer.
So thanks, but I'll stick with the existing Victorian family

Greg,
Thanks for the posting of SL Wraith - very appropriate. I presume she was side fired with a compound?

George
Yes, the boiler is unusual, and regretfully the model shop couldn't tell me who made her, only that she was made in a boilermakers shop, so I presume the maker built her as a miniature project and knew what he was doing!


Regards

Ted

Ted
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: gondolier88 on October 15, 2011, 08:18:15 pm
Hi Ted,

Yes, side fired, but I would have said a twin high as Thornycroft prefered HP engines for his fast launches, however I can't be sure. She was known as 'Greyhound of the lake' and was good for 14mph. That funnel gives away some of the power that lies beneath...! Also, the splashboards were added after her move upto Windermere to fend off head on waves at full speed 'won't do for the ladies to get wet eh wot wot!'

Greg
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: Ted Welding on October 18, 2011, 05:37:14 pm
Time for another episode I think!


‘Natterer’ – A shipbuilding Odyssey? – Part 5

The final two planks, one on each side, had to exactly fill the remaining gap and had to be very accurately measured and profiled on both edges. Each plank took two nights to shape and fix in place, and I hadn’t any margin for error, as I was down to my last good pieces of timber. ‘Measure twice, cut once’ was the order of the day, and happily at the end of it the fit was good.

I left the hull for three days to fully dry, before attempting to invert it, and then took my courage in my hands, unscrewed all the shadows from the building board, and for the first time turned the hull upright. What a wonderful sight! The hull had looked just like an interesting curved surface when upside down, but when upright it immediately became alive, and the true beauty of the hull form could be seen, with the subtle rise of the sheer to bow and stern, and the way the turn of the bilge gradually turned in to the tuck of her stern under the counter – stop it, Ted – you’re a married man! 

Now for the next stage, the fitting of the internal ribs. The hull had a total of 16 bent ribs down it’s length, with a further nine heavier carved frames. The ribs were continuous from gunwhale to gunwhale, except where the hull narrowed at each end, and the keelson had then to be fitted before the frames were installed. The ribs were 7 x 3mm mahogany, and were pre-bent around a piece of steel tube, heated by a gas torch. This operation proved tricky, as the difference between too little force in bending and consequent total ineffectiveness, and too much with consequent breakage was very small. I broke many pieces before I got the hang of it, and burnt my fingers several times, but eventually managed a full set.

Tap, tap tap – ‘One thousand three hundred and seven’; Tap, tap tap – ‘One thousand three hundred and eight’; Tap, tap, tap – ‘One thousand three hundred……….’ ; - You’ve guessed it; we’re at the riveting stage.

Full size construction uses copper nails which are driven through the timbers. A copper “rove” or washer is then driven down over the nail, excess nail nipped off, and the end then hammered over or ‘upset’ to ‘clench’ the nail. In full size it is a two man job, one to drive and hold the nail, and the other on the inside of the boat roving, nipping and clenching.

I used 1/16 x ½ inch copper rivets, which were pretty well to scale, but had great difficulty finding something to use as roves. Many modellers use modern 1/16” i.d. brass washers, but these tend to end up grossly overscale, and to my mind totally spoil the effect. I couldn’t find 1/16 washers in copper, and reluctantly decided I would have to use brass, but wasn’t happy about the scale effect. As luck would have it, I called in on my usual nut and bolt company when out and about, and asked if they had any small 1/16” i.d. washers. ‘Oh yes, the computer says we’ve got a packet in stock with about 1100 in’. When they eventually found them, at the back of the biggest warehouse you’ve ever seen, I was ecstatic - the washers were like nothing I’d ever seen before, and had a very small o.d. - they were exact scale! The only problem was I needed at least 1600. The company said they would get some more from the same supplier, but when they came, they were much wider. We checked, and found the original washers were stocked in 1981, to an obsolete standard, and no longer available!
This was a poser, but I decided I would use the original washers where they showed on the finished boat, and the wider ones where hidden. So first I counted the original washers to make sure I had enough for this course of action and found I had well over 2500! These things were tiny, and all of them could have fitted in a large egg-cup - the original supplier must have said ‘sod it, I’m not counting those’ and just chucked a handful in the bag to fill the warehouse’s order.

With the immediate problem solved, I started to fit the ribs. One of the midships shadows was removed, and the rib glued in place. Next, 1/16” holes were drilled through plank and rib, and the outside countered-bored to a depth of approx. 1/16” to allow the head of the rivet to sink in so it wouldn’t disappear when sanded flush. The rivet was then driven into the hole after being dipped in Araldite, before a washer was threaded over the shank on the inside, the rivet nipped off about 3/32” above the washer, and the end turned over, or ‘upset’ (Lovely word) to clench it home, using a light hammer and a heavy lump of steel as an anvil against the rivet head. I didn’t of course do each operation on each rivet one at a time, but drilled all the holes in one go, then countered-bored and so on. I found the work to be quite physically demanding, and found I could only put in a maximum of about 120 rivets in a three hour session.

I started off very tentatively, only removing one shadow at a time, and being very careful with the hammering, fully expecting all the planking joints to open, but soon found there wasn’t a problem and ended up with no shadows in place at all, as they just got in the way! The hull remained absolutely stable throughout.
1600 rivets later, all the ribs were in place, and I turned my attention to the frames.

(Sorry about the quality of the photos - still on copies of old photos!)
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: thelegos on October 19, 2011, 07:21:39 pm
Once again thank you Ted, thoroughly enjoyable as always. I had no idea the riveting process is exactly that , your description is both entertaining and informative.
Keep it coming  :-))

Roger
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: Ted Welding on October 23, 2011, 10:55:00 am
Moving on! - Episode 6 to thrill and delight you, or more likely bore you rigid.


‘Natterer’ – A shipbuilding Odyssey? – Part 6

The keelson was fitted next over the full length of the keel, effectively sandwiching the bent frames where they cross the keel, and preventing any subsequent movement.

The main frames, of which there are only nine, comprised three pieces; a floor section which straddles the keelson and extends out to the turn of the bilge, and two extension pieces which overlap with the floor section and extend up to the gunwhale. They were all cut from 10 and 12mm mahogany which came from an Edwardian wardrobe originally belonging to my Gran. I can remember the wardrobe in it’s full finery, but when Gran died it was cut down and turned into a couple of chests of drawers and a mirror by my Aunt, eventually to come to Ann and myself as bedside chests when we bought our home, then finally to be overcome and dragged up to my lair. Can’t bear to see good timber going to waste, especially when it’s re-use helps to minimise further damage to the rainforests - I won’t use new rainforest timbers if I can possibly help it - you can always find old or a substitute. Enough proselytising - back to the plot!

The extension pieces, like the floor sections, were cut and shaped almost entirely by eye, using the belt sander. I have tried the job from first principles, carefully marking out by hand and trimming to lines, but it never works out as well as I hope. I find that your eye and skill with the shaper stand you in much better stead, and you get a much closer fit when you are attempting to fit a curved timber that twists within it’s length.
The extension pieces were finally all made and fitted in place, and the tops trimmed down level with the top strake.

At this point, the box of copper rivets came out again (groans all round) All the main frames had to be riveted to the hull, as well as glued! Not nearly as bad a job as the bent ribs, as the rivets didn’t project through the frames, and hence only had to be glued, and not roved and upset. Where fixings were supposed to come through the frames, I just used another rivet and washer on the inside!  What did surprise me however, was the sheer number of rivets still required to finish the hull! I had reckoned on about 2000, but in the event, after adding in all the plank ends, the overlaps, the whales, the doublers, the splices, the spacers, the stringers, the ones falling down the cracks in the workroom floor, and the ones that pinged off out of my pliers into cyberspace, and so on and so forth, the total number of rivets used looked to be coming up to about 2600.

At this point the main inside whales (or stringers if you prefer) had to be fitted, but because from hereon in there would be less and less opportunity to work on or even reach some parts of the hull, it was necessary to first ensure the inside of the planking and ribs were ribs were as I wanted them in terms of surface finish, and then apply varnish to those parts that would be subsequently covered. The opportunity was taken at this stage to also fill in with wooden plugs all the temporary holes it had been necessary to drill through the hull whilst ‘persuading’ the planking to lie flat to the shadows. In all, some 180 holes were plugged and trimmed over a couple of nights (Why on earth do I bother!)
The hull has four 16 x 4.5mm timbers that run internally from stem to stern to provide longitudinal strength (The aforementioned whales). Two lie in the turn of the bilge, whilst the other two parallel the top strake and sandwich the heads of the ribs and frames. All are vital to the strength of the vessel, and I had saved four pieces of my best straightest-grained timber for the task. Once they had been fitted and properly riveted in place, the hull was secure, and I could relax happy in the knowledge that nothing was now likely to open or distort.
In fact the hull was now so solid that I’m sure I could have stood on it - but perhaps I’m not that brave!

Final job at this stage was to invert the boat again, place a light inside the hull, and then carefully fill any gaps in the hull planking with Araldite - luckily there weren’t many.

Work had to stop for a little while now as we prepared for Christmas (that’s if I wanted to make it to Christmas day with a whole skin), but in the event, I caught a dose of flue on Christmas Eve, and that stopped everything for four days until I staggered weakly out of bed, only to be brought low with a migraine attack which knocked me out for New Year 2000! Was that the Millenium? Just as I was about to go back to work (the money-earning sort of work to do with my employer) Ann’s appointment at the hospital came through, we had complications, and I ended up staying off work until the 17th! Ann’s misfortune was my gain, as I was able to get on with some more work ( the money-spending sort to do with boats).

The hull had hopefully benefited from being left for a month, in terms of drying out and building up glue strength. I was able to attack the outside with a disk sander and bring all those 2600 rivet heads down flush with the hull. That’s one of the advantages of building at this size - you can safely attack the thing with full size power tools and use quite a bit of welly!

The next stage was to pinch one of Ann’s Marmalade making jars from the kitchen ready to mix varnish and thinners - This was closely followed by a trip to the doctors for painkillers and a promise to never touch her jars again.

Eventually I found a suitable container, and the first coat of varnish, thinned with 60% thinners went into the inside of the hull. A further three coats followed, increasing the strength each time, until the final coat was only 20% thinners. Using a very thin first coat ensures that the wood is really impregnated with the varnish. I have seen boats where varnish has been applied full strength, and has just lifted off following immersion in water, as it had no adhesion.
The same process was repeated on the exterior, with four coats of varnish. This serves to seal and anchor all the rivets, and stops the wood staining in subsequent building operations.

By this time, I felt it was time for a change, and decided the next stage would be a little metal-bashing, but as this involves a bit of an explanation of the workings of a Kitchin rudder, I shall hold it over until next time!

Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: Shipmate60 on October 23, 2011, 11:21:08 am
Ted,
What a sensational, inspirational build.

Bob
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: pugwash on October 23, 2011, 11:25:24 am
Ted you are wasting your time here - If you can build to this quality in miniature think what a lovely job you could
make of the real thing

Geoff
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: gondolier88 on October 23, 2011, 12:23:55 pm
Ted you are wasting your time here - If you can build to this quality in miniature think what a lovely job you could
make of the real thing

Geoff

A tad difficult on a table in the spare bedroom!

It's interesting to note the use of a keelson- I haven't had chance to inspect under Bat's deckboards, but is this a feature of Bat? It's very unusual for a Windermere launch to have a keelson of the type that encases the steamed frames as the rest of the launches have a keelson that takes the garboard only and the steamed frames are bent in one peice over the keel and up both sides of the hull.

Great write-up Ted, thankyou for taking the time.

Greg
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: Ted Welding on October 23, 2011, 04:55:56 pm
Hi Roger & Bob - many thanks for your kind remarks - it really does make a difference when putting something like this narrative together to have some response, whether encouraging or critical! (and both yours were encouraging!)

Ah Geoff, - when I retired from work four years ago it was my intention to build a full size steamer, but health problems have regrettably scuppered that idea.

Greg, I can't for the life of me remember whether Bat has a keelson over the bent frames, and I can't find anything in my photo file to confirm or deny.  I have the sneaking feeling that as an engineer, I felt the keelson under the steamed frames was a little weak, particularly for a model of this size and weight being hauled out of the river by two enthusiastic 'helpers', and beefed it up! But then, Natterer isn't Bat, so perhaps a little artistic licence is permitted. I would quite agree that the majority of full size boats with this form of construction would have the single keelson with steamed ribs over.
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: thelegos on October 23, 2011, 10:45:25 pm
Hello Ted,
An enjoyable read again, it sounds like you got the Millennium Bug all to yourelf !!

I do love to work in wood but by no means with the same level of skill and intricacy as yourself. Most of my projects are the restoration of vintage wooden craft, the most recent being an old 1950's Veron Marlin cruiser.

I read with interest your application of varnish, for me this is something that never seems to go as planned and no matter how carefully I apply it dries with tiny air bubbles. I must confess I've been using it neat and not thinned down which I'll most certainly try, will this help eliminate the bubbles?? I must add that I'm applying with a brush and assumed you did the same.
What are your thoughts on this?
Roger

 
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: Ted Welding on October 24, 2011, 09:50:57 am
Hello Roger,
In my younger and more naive days I used to think that people who said they had 'flu were wimps.  Then I caught it!  If you've never had it, it's impossible to realise just how it knocks you totally sideways, and for how long.  Nowadays, when people say 'I had 'flu yesterday, so I stayed off work' I just raise an expressive eyebrow and leave it at that.

Varnish is funny stuff.  I always use a good marine varnish, well thinned as stated in my text, and in several layers, with a light rubbing down in between.  I've never had problems with bubbles, but would suggest the following: 1. Always use a good quality brush  2. Avoid 'overworking' the varnish, which can introduce bubbles  3. if rubbing down between coats, use some white spirit followed by a tack rag to remove every last speck of dust.

After all that, I eventually stripped the varnish off 'Natterer' and used an epoxy resin finish to avoid drying out problems - but that comes in a later instalment!

Ted
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: thelegos on October 24, 2011, 11:37:01 am
Hello Ted,
Oddly enough my wife and I had a conversation yesterday about what is and isn't flu and concluded that most isn't but it all pales into insignificance against the dreadful modern day phenomena that is MAN FLU - totally debilitating and only curable by vast amounts of pampering and being waited on hand and foot  :-))

But onto varnish. I've decided to do some testing of my own.

I'll try a 50/50 thinning , choosing this percentage as the benchmark to work either side of depending on the outcome.

I've tried many types of brush from quality sable to fully synthetic, round, flat etc. Sable is undoubtedly good but think I need to develop a good cleaning regime as it seems to be feel worst once used. I chatted to a man at Warwick last year whose boats were beautifully painted and varnished and he's been using the same sable brushes for 20 years!

Overworking is something I've been aware of and applying too fast produces a bit of a mess so I tend to lightly load the brush and work very steadily. Combined with some thinning I think this could yield good results.

Dust. Good thought, I vacuum and the wipe down with lint free cloth but not wetted with anything and I guess any tiny particle has the potential to make its presence known!

Thank you for your response, I'm planking a deck in mahogany at the moment so these ideas can be tried soon.

Roger
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: Ted Welding on October 24, 2011, 04:25:10 pm
Hello Roger,
Try some tack rag - it's used by the automotive trade and is even better than lint-free - Halfords stock it

Ted
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: gondolier88 on October 24, 2011, 05:50:00 pm
I personally use LeTonkinois, a high quality (though fairly well priced) marine varnish. It has strict instructions NOT to thin any coats- it contains nothing but natural resins, based on Tung oil carrier with a unique mixture- the first coat soaks in just like a good quality oil and acts as a cellular sealer too. The second coat is a filling coat. The third coat is the first real gloss coat, and the fourth fifth and sixth add a real lustre and deep finish.

Getting rid of dust is THE most important factor in getting a decent finish- always decant into a clean dust free container so as to not contaminate the tin, always use turps, or white spirit if that's all you have' along with a lint free cloth. Straining the varnish through an old pair of tights or similar also does wonders at getting rid of those extremely annoying tiny high spots. A good sanding is also essential when getting to the third coat so as to keep the coats perfectly flat.

Greg
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: Ted Welding on October 28, 2011, 02:57:24 pm
Hi All,

Sorry you haven't heard anything from me for a few days - Ann (aka SWMBO; Light of my life, joy of my days; or even better third (don't ask)), took a tumble last week and broke her leg. In consequence, the house has been upside down for the last few days, and we're only now back on to a reasonably even keel (how's that then, nautical terminology in all things!)
She's recovering, and should be OK in time.  In the meantime, I'm on to my fourth method of preparing eggs on toast.

Back to the boat.
Two episodes this time, one to talk about stems and rudders, and the other to look at Kitchin rudders. Ignore the second part if you wish, as Natterer didn't in the end get such a rudder, but I've included it out of interest.  Sorry about the quality of the diagram - it looks great in Excel, but still haven't figured out a way to attach it to a post - can anyone help?


‘Natterer’ – A shipbuilding Odyssey? – Part 7


At the end of the last article, I had finished the main hull timberwork, and proposed starting a little metal-bashing by way of a diversion. Like all tasks, this became a major engineering operation in it’s own right, and took some considerable time to get sorted.

The parts I’m referring to are the protective brass strip down the stem, and the rudder with it’s supporting skeg.
The stem strip was tackled first, using 1.5mm strip brass, and a big file. The strip is 17mm wide over the stem-head, but then narrows down to about 6mm where the planking fairs into the stem, before slowly opening out again to the full width of the keel at the forefoot. The stem-head has a complicated double-reverse curve over the top, and I found the simplest way to achieve a really close fit was to bend the brass strip to the required shape, then sand the wooden stem-head to suit the pre-bent brass. When all was correct, the brass was bedded into wet varnish on the stem, and screwed down firmly.

Next I tackled the skeg, which extends the line of the keel under the prop far enough to give a firm base for the bottom of the rudder shaft for the rudder. This was fabricated out of a sandwich of 15x15x1mm brass angle and 1.5mm brass strip, as I couldn’t get a suitable channel section, and incorporates a vertical section running from keel to the underside of the propshaft, mainly for strength, but it also looks good! Everything was bolted together, and then sweated with soft solder to give a firm fabrication.
The assembly was screwed into place, and then I carefully marked out the positions of the rudder tubes.
No, you haven’t mis-read – I did say tubes. Bat (On which ‘Natterer’ is based – come on!) has an ordinary rudder, which is mounted in the standard location, to the rear of the prop. However, she was at one stage owned by a gentleman called Kitchin, who used her as an experimental test-bed when he designed the Kitchin Rudder. This is a rather unique rudder which acts partly like a Kort rudder to give great manoeuverability, and partly like a jet engine’s thrust reversers, to give reverse motion with the propeller still running as if moving forward. The rudder was adopted experimentally in the Royal Navy for steam pinnaces and the like, but eventually fell out of favour as it was found that if the reverse was selected when running full ahead, the forces generated could (and did!) pull the transoms out of the boats. The forces are much less in model form, and the big advantage is that the boat can be put ahead, reversed and be held stationary in the water, just by operating the rudder and with the engine still running full ahead. This has great potential in a model steamboat application, as reversing a steam engine of the form being used can be tricky.
Anyway, the upshot of all this is that I wanted the ability to mount a Kitchin rudder if desired, and hence a second rudder tube had to go in forward of the normal one.
Both rudder tubes were drilled with the hull upside down, using a special long thin drill bit with the skeg as a guide, and then opened out to full size using a fabricated hollow drill cum hole-saw, slipped over the drill bit. Brass tubes were then glued in, to give perfectly aligned shafts.

Apart from the above, a little more work was carried out on the engine, with the result that the connecting rods were finally turned out of solid phosphor bronze stock. I then spent eight hours or so bedding in the crankshaft to the engine bed, and the con-rods to the crank, so there is no play or tight spots. A very boring operation, but one that has to be done to ensure the engine doesn’t knock itself apart in the first hour or two.
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: Ted Welding on October 28, 2011, 03:06:44 pm
And the article on the Kitchin rudder.

Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: Ted Welding on October 28, 2011, 03:10:27 pm
It would probably help if I actually attached the article
Doh!


The Kitchin Rudder

So what’s a Kitchin Rudder? Well, around the turn of the century (1900 that is), a gentleman by the name of Jack Kitchin lived at Windermere and designed a rather unique rudder and reversing gear for steam launches. Jack Kitchin did all his development work on his own steam launch – ‘Bat’, so at one stage she mounted a Kitchin rudder.
This device was made in two halves, each shaped as in Fig. 1, and curved so that when mounted on a boat, they formed a cylindrical shell, as Figs 2 & 3.
Each half of the rudder was controlled by separate shafts, one mounted within the other, and with two tillers.
The two tillers were connected to a yoke on a screw thread, which was itself mounted on a single tiller extension, as Fig 4.
 
When moving forwards, the water flow is straight through the rudder, as Fig 5, but if the tiller bar is moved to port and starboard, then both halves of the rudder move together as a cylinder as in Fig 6, and the prop wash is deflected to one side or the other so as to steer the boat.
If however the tiller is held central and the handscrew wound anticlockwise, then the two halves of the rudder move back and together so as to meet behind the prop as in Fig. 7. The nett result is that the prop wash is deflected forward out of the rudder and the boat moves back.
A little thought will establish that the engine can be run ahead all the time, and that it is possible to find a position for the rudders as in Fig. 8, where the prop wash through the back of the rudders is balanced by the forward deflected prop wash so that the boat stays stationary in the water.
Now the really clever bit is that by combining the rudder effect and the reversing effect together, it is possible to reverse the boat and steer at the same time, as Fig.9, so that precise reverse steering is obtained! (also presents a nice little conundrum – in the illustration is the boat moving backwards to Port, as it is the port side of the boat, or to Starboard, as the stern is moving to the right?)

The rudder was adopted experimentally by the Royal Navy, but fell out of use before the second world war.

Kitchin was a prolific inventor, and was the first to control a boat (Bat again!) using radio control in 1904 from the top of Queen Adelaide’s Hill above Windermere. Apparently he stuck his gardener in the boat with instructions to keep stoking the boiler and touch nothing else – the man was terrified as he was sailed all over the lake!

Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: Ted Welding on November 02, 2011, 05:39:15 pm
Hi All,

Ann now has her leg in a cast, the cats are terrified for their tails whenever she moves, and I've learnt another dish to add to my meagre culinary skills.  So time for another episode!


‘Natterer’ – A shipbuilding Odyssey? – Part 8


I concluded the last piece with a short piece on the mechanism and operation of the Kitchin Rudder, which I was contemplating trying out on ‘Natterer’. Well, that was the idea, but I commenced by building a mock-up using stiff card, and concluded that whilst everything would fit, and the rudder would probably work, it all looked rather oversized. It didn’t look good, so I temporarily put that particular part of the project into abeyance, and proceeded with the conventional rudder for the time being. Might still come back to it as an experiment later!

I now concentrated on the completion of the engine, together with the construction, from castings, of the boiler feed-water pump. The pump is used to continuously top-up the boiler whilst under way, and is driven off  the main crank via a worm and spur gear. The castings were originally produced as an accessory for Stuart Turner’s Double Ten Steam Engine, so I had to modify the mountings somewhat to fit the Launch Engine, and also machine the bore oversize to increase the capacity.

Talking of bores (hopefully not this meandering narrative) I’d realised as I investigated the boiler that the Stuart launch engine was much more powerful than I needed, and that it would consume an awful lot of steam.  The solution was to sleeve down the bores from 1” to ¾”, which reduced the power somewhat, but more importantly, halved the steam consumption to a level the boiler could easily handle without running flat-out.

Once all the machining was completed the engine was fully dismantled, cleaned and painted, and re-assembled. It looked the part and came together very well. Initially very tight, as it should be, and I ran it on the lathe for about eight hours to loosen it up (I’d upgraded the lathe by now to a Chester!). Whilst being driven in this way, the engine actually acts as a pump, and I was getting quite a good suction on the inlet – boded well for the future, as leakage should be quite low when I eventually came to apply steam.

The engine runs at between 30 and 90 psi, so I didn’t envisage any problems in turning the crank – full 90psi pressure equates to a load of about 36 lbs on each piston face!

Time to test the engine!  Rigged up an airline from the garage compressor, built up pressure to about 30psi, and cracked open the valve – IT WORKED! – It just started of it’s own accord, ran quite happily, and reversed with no problems when I pulled over the reverse lever. Jubilation – the crankshaft cranked, the valves valved, and the pistons – they worked too.  Ann said my grin ran from ear to ear.

The other area I turned my attention to was the boiler, and here I installed superheater coils and feedwater heater coils in the smokebox. It looked like an absolute serpent’s nest of copper pipe, but at least it all fitted! In all likelyhood, the ‘superheater’ just acts as a steam drier, but never mind. At the other end of the boiler, I produced a facsimile of a full scale boiler face, with a fully riveted smokebox complete with lift up cover for access to clean the boiler tubes. All done in copper, later to be painted in special high temperature paint.

Talking of heat, I machined the mountings for the twin turbo gas torches that fire the beast – equivalent to two gas blowtorches working together – frightening – decided to call the burner ‘Smaug’

Next, it was time for a bit of testing and so tentatively turned up the heat on Smaug – thankfully it all worked, and I didn’t end up with a pile of smoking ash.

(I despair of Microsoft – their spell checker can’t even recognise words like “superheaters”, “lbs”,
 “smokebox”, etc. Doesn’t everbody use these words all the time?)
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: kiwimodeller on November 03, 2011, 08:47:21 am
First of all let me say this is a great series of articles - keep up the good work. Second of all let me say that I have never tried a Kitchin rudder but I have built two boats with variable, revesable pitch props and I have another bigger prop for a future project. The conclusion I have come to is that having the variable prop and a conventional rudder is a great setup and easy to install. The prop can be run on a small pitch and small throttle opening which is very economical on steam and yet give it full pitch and a little more throttle and the boat goes really well. I think the control is much smoother and finer than using a throttle and reversing gear to reverse the engine. It would be good to hear others opinions. Cheers, Ian.
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: thelegos on November 03, 2011, 01:33:21 pm
Hello Ted,
Let's hope poor Ann is fully functioning before too long or you'll be frying those eggs and browning the toast with Smaug!

Very interesting about the Kitchin rudder which is not something I've heard of previously and very neat although as it turns out not terribly practical.
The engine, boiler and burner is a most impressive item in its entirety; fire, steam, intense heat and wood I still see as an unlikely combination and can imagine a certain amount of trepidation when first fired up!

Thank you again,
Roger
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: Ted Welding on November 04, 2011, 11:10:37 am
Ian, Roger,
Thanks for the comments - always good to get some feedback, and to look at people's experiences with different systems (particularly about the Kitchin rudder)

I did look at installing a variable prop into Natterer at a very early stage, for exactly the reasons you cite, Ian, but felt my engineering skills weren't up to it, and there wasn't a commercial item available at the time (Remember this was in 1997!). So I ended up going down the conventional route, but making provision for a Kitchin rudder sometime in the future.
It's probably fair to say the Kitchin rudder was actually very effective in it's operation, as it gave superb directional control, particularly in reverse - the problems arose when the Navy put it into the hands of ratings who were possibly not properly trained in it's use, and didn't appreciate the forces involved.  After all, you wouldn't expect to drive a car at 70 and suddenly engage reverse gear? Perhaps it's a pity the Navy didn't persevere and develop practices/procedures to suit, and also strenghten their boats as necessary.

On a model level, is there anyone out there who has actually built a Kitchin rudder for their boat?  I mentioned in my post that I found the rudder to look very large for the boat, but I'm now wondering whether the nozzle effect of the rudder means you could use a smaller diameter prop, and correspondingly smaller rudder, which would look better.  Also interested in how you control the rudder - I was proposing to use two servos, one to move the tiller arm, and another mounted on the tiller arm to control forward/reverse.

Come on people - lets have your ideas/comments!

Ted

Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: thelegos on November 04, 2011, 11:35:29 am
Hi Ted,
This is worth a look

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJKx1wnQnVU

It leads to this which is a great start!

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1183127

Roger
 
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: steamboatmodel on November 04, 2011, 11:38:57 pm
Roger bet me too it with the links, unfortunately work on mine has been stalled by home repairs.
Regards,
Gerald.
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: Ted Welding on November 05, 2011, 05:14:53 pm
   Roger, Gerald,
Thanks for the links - most interesting.  It's as I thought - the system seems to work very well, particularly in reverse, and the rudder buckets seem substantially smaller.  Control method as I envisaged too!

Pleased to say my old friend Bryan has fired himself into life, and contributed the following - I've taken the liberty of copying it across from the topic where he put it, as more suited to this one.  Bears out what I was saying - good system, more training required!

 
Bryan Young
Full Mayhemer

 Offline

Location: Whitley Bay. Northumberland. UK
Posts: 3,261   
Re: ‘Natterer’ Praise
« Reply #4 on: Today at 03:30:34 PM »

Huh, now I'm really hurt and more than a little offended. Reprobate indeed. How can you call such a fine upstanding pillar of the community a "reprobate" (well, upstanding is fine when both legs are working).
I think I'll give this topic a miss from now on and preserve my blood pressure. You lot can stick with steam pressure.
    However, talking to Ted yesterday (Friday) we got to discussing the "Kitchin" rudder etc. and I mentioned that many of the Admiralty 36ft work boats were fitted with this arrangement....the gear worked fine, but most of the QMs lost the plot...one actually running over (over) a jetty in Malta and chucking his 50 passengers into the harbour.
I'm sure their must be Mayhem members who recall these things (?). Don't tell me, tell Ted. BY.
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: thelegos on November 05, 2011, 06:59:49 pm
Hi Ted,
Here is a most interesting link with detailed pictures.
Roger

http://www.scribd.com/doc/22236032/Kitchen-Rudders-Going-Full-Circle
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: thelegos on November 05, 2011, 07:04:12 pm
And right here on Mayhem (as I should expect of course)

Roger

http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2328.0
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: Ted Welding on November 08, 2011, 09:39:23 am
Roger,

Many thanks for the links - I thought someone would know something, and Bryan was sure there had been postings on Kitchin rudders in the past!

Ted
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: Ted Welding on November 08, 2011, 09:49:55 am
Time, I think, for another section for your delectation.



‘Natterer’ – A shipbuilding Odyssey? – Part 9


Right; At the end of the last instalment I think I’d just about got to the stage where I had a functioning engine, and a functioning boiler – that’s good, all I have to do is put them together and we’ve a powerplant!  Well, no actually – we’ve got an engine and a boiler: full stop.

The next fun bit is to put it all together, and suddenly you realise the combined weight of engine, boiler, hull and ancillaries is rather considerable, (around 80lbs weight – alright 36 Kgs) and the workshop is in an attic room.  Ann didn’t seem particularly overjoyed at the thought of the boat residing in the dining room (spoilsport) and I didn’t fancy moving 80 lbs up and down two flights of stairs.  A cunning plan was called for!  Why not make the entire powerplant removable?  The powerplant and the hull each weighed around 40 lbs, so readily transportable, and there were plus points in that it made the powerplant so much easier to work on outside the hull.

A baseplate was built using a brass sheet sitting on two brass angles, to which were attached the engine and boiler. The baseplate was secured in the hull by horizontal tapered pins engaging in holes in a brass plate secured to one of the frames at the front end, and sitting over two studs at the rear.   Thus the entire plant could be lifted in and secured by two nuts, with a sliding dog-clutch joint to connect to the prop-shaft.  Of course, this meant in turn that all the controls for the engine/boiler had also to be mounted on the baseplate, but we’ll come to that particular headache later.

The baseplate gave me loads of room to mount all the other ancillaries, and the feed pumps (hand and engine driven) were mounted, together with oil condenser/trap, by-pass valve and all the associated plumbing.
I also elected to carry a twenty/twenty-five minute reserve of feedwater in the boat, carried in two inter-connected saddle tanks either side of the boiler.  These were folded up from copper sheet using a metal folder in the maintenance section at work, and soft-soldered.  They’re an awkward shape to construct, but look well in the boat, painted a sort of red-lead colour. Connection from the tanks to the feed pumps is by means of a quick release coupling, as used by the steam loco lads between tender and engine.
All the plumbing was by now causing my head to hurt, so I carefully drew out a plumbing diagram using Excel on the computer.  I’ll be able to refer to it in years to come when my brain becomes even more addled than it is currently! (more like weeks at the present rate)
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: Ted Welding on November 11, 2011, 05:18:47 pm
We're starting to get into the nitty-gritty of making the thing work, so read on.
I'm always looking for better ways to do things, and as this was my first steam boat I'm sure there is plenty of room to improve, so please - let me and other modellers know!


‘Natterer’ – A shipbuilding Odyssey? – Part 10

As previously alluded to, the firing for the boiler was to be by gas, and a lot of heat was going to be required.  The burners were to be a couple of 5/8” turbo burners, firing into a sealed firing tube in the bottom of the boiler.  (Remember Smaug?) (Hands up anyone who doesn’t know who Smaug was) These proved tricky to regulate reliably, to the point where they would readily extinguish at low gas flows, so a much smaller burner was mounted piggy-back style on top of the main burners, set to run continuously as a pilot light. 

As I had decided the power-plant was to be removable, the burner assembly has to move back when the plant is installed or removed, so it slides backwards and forwards on two steel bars, and can be locked in position

The main burners were then controlled by a servo-driven valve controlled by a Cheddar ABC automatic boiler control set-up.  For anyone not familiar with the ABC unit, it is basically an electronic box of tricks that continuously monitors the boiler pressure in the boiler (through a temperature sensor) and increases the gas flow if the pressure drops, and decreases it if the pressure rises.  It also monitors the water level in the boiler sight glass and regulates the water flow in to the boiler from the boiler pump by means of a servo-driven by-pass valve. ( Natterer has two sight glasses, one fully working for display in the front cockpit, and a further one hidden from view in the engine room, mounting the water level detector)  As an added bonus, it also monitors the water remaining in the water feed tanks, and shuts down the whole system if the reserve goes too low.

The gas supply comes from a pair of gas canisters mounted in the bows, feeding to a common feed pipe.  I decided on two canisters to try and overcome the freezing effect inherent in evaporating gas from a container, and have so far had no problems.  If necessary, I could invert the canisters, and feed liquid gas to an evaporator warmed by the burners, but that’s for the future.

Of course, as this was my first steam driven model, I had galloping paranoia over the prospect of the system shutting down unexpectedly, which  could be a bit of a problem if it occurred in the middle of a lake or river, so as I had some  room under the rear passenger well of the launch,  I decided to put in an emergency drive system in the form of a geared electric motor, driving through an electro-magnetic clutch, and geared to the prop-shaft.  In the event of an emergency, I only have to flick a switch on the transmitter, and control of the boat transfers from the steam valve to an electronic speed controller, the clutch engages, and I can bring her in.  The power comes from a small lead-acid gel battery, which gives sufficient power for 5-10 minutes sailing.

The steam engine remains connected to the propshaft when the emergency electrics are employed.  I had some doubts at development stage as to whether this was practical, as I was concerned that I could be trying to turn a ‘steam-locked’ engine as well as the propshaft, but the system has worked well on test (never had to use it in anger!)  The resistance from the steam engine is high, and the electric (geared) motor pulls a lot of amps, which accounts for the short duration of the stand-by battery – but then I only need a minute or so to bring her in.

The electronic clutch was obtained from a friend who worked in the electronics control industry, and is only about 1.5” in diameter.  I’ve looked for a ‘spare’ just in case, but never found one – the majority appear to be in the 3” upwards range. I’m told the older photocopiers may be a useful source!

As with the plumbing, concerns over future memory capacity ensured I produced a full circuit diagram for the whole set-up! – one for the motor wiring, and one for the R/C changeover. I’m afraid my grasp of electronics is fairly basic, and I tend to rely on simple things like relays, rather than anything more sophisticated. 

Although out of sequence in this tale, it was found that when the launch was sailed, the emergency system worked so well that an experiment was made with a battery pack of four 12v lead-acid gel batteries replacing the steam plant (same weight!)  The boat sailed perfectly all day, and provides a perfectly acceptable alternative drive should I not want to use the steam plant.
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: Ted Welding on November 16, 2011, 05:29:22 pm
Part 11 for your perusal!

I'm beginning to feel like Mick (Patternmaker) did at the start of the month - is there anyone out there?  No responses, questions, brickbats - should I carry on posting?


‘Natterer’ – A shipbuilding Odyssey? – Part 11


You will remember that I had decided to assemble the engine and boiler onto a baseplate, so I could remove the power-plant in one go.  I had spent a lot of time and thought on exactly how I was going to control the engine and boiler, and in the end determined that the servos to control the reversing lever, boiler feed by-pass valve and whistle would all sit on the baseplate and come out with the power-plant.  By dint of careful planning of pipework and placement of valves it was possible to get all the servos together in one block, which could then be hidden by the ubiquitous ‘wooden box’, with short connecting links coming out of the box to connect with the appropriate valves and levers.

The boiler also had to carry the boiler pressure temperature sensor, and the water level sensor, so in all that made five sets of leads coming off the power-plant.  They all converged into the ubiquitous box, and were connected into the back of a “D” type 15 pin plug.

The steam throttle valve was a standard globe valve on the steam line from boiler to engine, and was so arranged that it engaged via a simple dog clutch onto the output from a sail winch servo, fastened into the structure of the hull.  The sail winch then had a sufficient number of turns to fully open the globe valve. 

So we now had a power-plant that would slide down into the hull, engage with the tapered pins previously mentioned, and then sit on the two studs, picking up the steam valve servo en route via the dog clutch.  All I had to do was then plug in the electronics via the 15 pin plug, connect the drive to the propshaft and connect the water tanks via a quick-release coupling.  Takes about a minute! (or two, and a lot of swearing if my thumb gets in the way)

Reference to the photos should hopefully make the arrangement clear! (Or not, depending on the level of my erudition)  The steam valve was arranged to end up in its own ‘locker’ on the hull, and be hidden by a removable lid.  The second globe valve you can see in the same steam line is permanently fully open and is cosmetic, being visible through the engine room casing.

By now there were 6 servos, 3 sensors, 2 relays, a speed controller, an electro-magnetic clutch, an electric motor, a boiler control module, a receiver and various batteries floating around within the confines of the hull, all hoping to eventually meet up for fun and friendship, possibly leading to more.  All the leads had to go somewhere, and this was under the decking at the stern.

A mounting plate (green in the photos) was made up, holding the radio receiver, ABC Boiler Control System, their associated battery packs, and various on/off switches and charging sockets.  I started with a Fleet radio system, purchased many years ago when I thought I was somewhere near finishing(!!!)  However, since 2.4 has arrived on the scene, I’ve changed to that, mainly to avoid frequency clashes.  I’ve used the Fleet outfit in other boats, as well as Natterer, and it is still going strong, having never let me down.

I fitted wooden channels with covers through each side of the rear cockpit to carry all the wires, running under the slatted seats, so the wiring is hidden. (Visible in the shot of the electric motor)
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: BarryM on November 16, 2011, 07:10:23 pm
Ted,
Keep going; this thread of yours is informative and entertaining and it's helping me by giving ideas for my project.

A certain 'B Y' (as in 'Bring Yer Own Young', who may be known to you) is also assisting me but he regards steam as a dangerous innovation in shipping and the switch from oil to electric light as the work of the devil.

Regards,

Barry M
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: derekwarner on November 16, 2011, 07:24:40 pm
Many are interested Ted  %) ....the first steam valve driven by the sail winch...

Is it a globe valve or a needle valve?
Does the seating torque of the sail winch create any issues when unseating that same induced closing/seating torque?...... %% Derek
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: thelegos on November 16, 2011, 08:29:05 pm
Hello Ted, we are watching although my time has been limited by excessive searching on the internet about model steam engines, boilers and assorted launches - yes that little niggle is on my shoulder telling me I need to do this!!

The biggest problem is where to start, particularly the engine and boiler. I was taken with an oscillating V-twin seen in action a few weeks ago which could be reversed; then a Stuart Turner V10 which was forward only and thoughts turned again to the Kitchen rudder. As an aside I've got hold of a 1983 Model Boats magazine with a very good article about building the rudder, including a development of the rudder sections with dimensions and information about how to adapt a Tx for single stick operation. If you would like it copied PM me.
Used equipment is so variable and quite expensive so a poorly judged purchase can be costly mistake so the research will continue for now.

So please keep it up, this is a complicated and very different side to model boating for me and this kind of information is fantastic. I wouldn't even be considering it if it were not for the features from yourself and Mike.

Many thanks,
Roger
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: Patternmaker on November 17, 2011, 03:04:48 pm
Part 11 for your perusal!

I'm beginning to feel like Mick (Patternmaker) did at the start of the month - is there anyone out there?  No responses, questions, brickbats - should I carry on posting

I know the feeling Ted, it does make you wonder if is worth the effort, but if it has inspired someone it makes
it worthwhile, as I am nearing the end of my build I may well carry on.

Your Natterer is a far more complicated build than mine with all the electronics absolutely superb.

Regards Mick
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: steamboatmodel on November 17, 2011, 11:23:25 pm
Please carry on, I am following this very carefully as I have been asked to install a boiler and engine into a 50" x 13" model launch. I have decided to copy a number of your Natterer features in it.
Regards,
Gerald.
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: Ted Welding on November 18, 2011, 10:54:47 am
Thankyou, Barry, Derek, Roger, Mick, Gerald:
You have restored my faith!  Further ramblings will follow.

I've just realised that one of the photos in the last posting showing the steam valve sail winch was a very early one, taken while I was still developing the control systems, and shows a couple of servos to the right, apparently fastened to the main hull structure. Please ignore, as I later moved them to the lift-out baseplate!

Derek; the steam valve is a needle valve, or more correctly perhaps a cone valve, with the servo giving about 4.5 turns, compared to the valve's 5 or 6.  I've set it up so the valve doesn't close tight, so there is no stalling of the winch at either end of it's travel.  The tiny amount of steam passing the valve when shut is not enough to turn the engine, while there is plenty of steam on full throttle with the valve 90% open.

Mick; although my build is complete, I still get inspiration from your postings - particularly as I would like to consider a clinker hull on my next project.  Your workmanship is superb - please keep it coming!

Roger; yes, I would be very interested in your info. on the Kitchin rudder - will send you a PM.

Barry; I've known Bryan for some 25+ years, ever since we each built ourselves VERY large models in the shape of cars - the Gentry - modellerd on the MG TF (1953 version, not the later one) - he's a superb modeller and raconteur, very helpful and supportive.  (might even get a pint out of this)

Regards

Ted
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: HS93 (RIP) on November 18, 2011, 11:03:48 am
Ive read it right through twice, some great ideas, when you get posts like yours and Mick's it's hard to comment when everything is done so well.

peter
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: ooyah/2 on November 18, 2011, 12:04:39 pm
Ted,
 Knowing that you have said that you reduced the bores in the launch engine to 3/4" bore which brings the engine more or less in line with the D10.and that the steam valve operated by a sail winch and 4.5 turns gives enough steam.
If the globe valve shown is a purchased valve the cone will be 30deg included, needle valves are usually used when very fine tuning is needed, i.e. on a displacement lubricator.

I like the idea of a sail winch but baulked at the cost so for the D10 in my steam tug CERVIA I made a valve with a 60deg included cone and screwed the valve stem 3/16" x 24 Whit which gave a quick lift using a standard servo with 90deg movement, this provides enough steam, any more and it would drive the boat under. ( pic enclosed ) it's all a bit of a squeeze.

Don't be down hearted at the lack of response, as I have said to Mick before you must not forget that the majority of steam modelers don't scratch build like you and Mick but purchase their steam plants and fittings so some times it's a bit beyond them, so your postings can be of great value although you don't get many questions it is a great encouragement for somebody to maybe one day have a go at making your own steam plant.
As Mick says if you inspire one person it's worth it.

Guys please don't get up in arms as I can assure you that I am not down crying you and all of the steam models posted are absolutely fabulous far above any model boat that I could produce whether scratch or kit built.

To those who don't know 30deg included angle gives a finished angle of 60 deg, like wise 60 deg gives 120 deg.


(http://s8.postimage.org/n0vn0sdpd/Steam_Valve.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/n0vn0sdpd/)
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: Ted Welding on November 19, 2011, 05:37:43 pm
Hi ooyah/2 (sorry, don't know your christian name!),

I'm afraid I'm guilty of a bit of sloppy writing - You are quite right, I should have said cone valve, and not even mentioned needle valves!

I can't take any credit for the idea to use the sail winch and cone valve, as it was suggested to me many years ago by the gentleman who owned Bruce Engineering when I talked to him at Harrogate

Having said that, I like the idea of your quick-lift valve very much, and may well incorporate in the next boat, but don't hold your breath until I build it - 30+ years is a long time!

Regards

Ted
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: ooyah/2 on November 20, 2011, 10:16:04 am
Hi Ted,
No you are not guilty of sloppy writing, you never mentioned needle valves it was Derek our antipodean friend who mentioned it.

In doing some back reading of your write up you mention not reversing a car at 70 mph without stopping to engage revers.
I think you should keep in mind some of our electric driven modelers who can at the flick of a switch revers their models and conveniently forget that a steam boat takes a bit of stopping.
I originally had a standard servo operating the Stevenson revers gear and a club member came across my bow so I had to whack the boat into revers only to find that the standard servo wasn't up to the pull.
I now have a 15kg steel geared servo so it's now not a problem in emergencies the boat flips into revers with no ill effect from full ahead to revers.
I am not advocating that this should be a standard proceedure but it's there if required, remember you have an 80lb boat under steam.


What have you done about getting your boiler certificated as the blue book on testing has some very stringent requirements on boiler design and earlier on when I asked who made the INGLS  boiler you said that no record was available, it sure looks well made by somebody who new what they were doing.
It's more or less a copy of a K.N.HARRIS  design  , see page 154 of his book MODEL BOILERS and BOILER MAKING.

It's a very impressive build, you and Mick have set some standard for us to achieve, well done both of you.

Sorry about not signing of on my last post.

George.
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: Ted Welding on November 20, 2011, 06:00:14 pm
Hi George,

Yes, Natterer takes some stopping! Having said that, the small steam launches on Windermere generally chugged around at perhaps only 4 to 5 knots, and oddly enough, Natterer looks best at relatively low speed - she looks altogether too hurried when flat out, albeit she sails very well at top speed.  I take your point about the reversing servo - mine is steel geared, but more because I had the servo rather than anything else.  The rudder servo is ahigh torque servo, as the rudder is very large, and I imagine the forces on the servo are high.

The boiler is indeed very similar to K.N.Harris' design, and I do imagine this had some influence on the design.  I mentioned when I acquired the boiler that I checked the design thoroughly (I was a civil engineer, and latterly worked in a consulting engineers design offices) Really it was a reverse design exercise, and involved reverse designing to confirm the boiler would be good for up to 120psi, with a factor of safety of 10  - q
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: Ted Welding on November 20, 2011, 06:16:01 pm
Oops! - mucked up the posting - full text as follows:


Hi George,

Yes, Natterer takes some stopping! Having said that, the small steam launches on Windermere generally chugged around at perhaps only 4 to 5 knots, and oddly enough, Natterer looks best at relatively low speed - she looks altogether too hurried when flat out, albeit she sails very well at top speed.  I take your point about the reversing servo - mine is steel geared, but more because I had the servo rather than anything else.  The rudder servo is ahigh torque servo, as the rudder is very large, and I imagine the forces on the servo are high.

The boiler is indeed very similar to K.N.Harris' design, and I do imagine this had some influence on the design.  I mentioned when I acquired the boiler that I checked the design thoroughly (I was a civil engineer, and latterly worked in a consulting engineers design offices) Really it was a reverse design exercise, and involved reverse designing to confirm the boiler would be good for up to 120psi (working), with a factor of safety of 10  - quite happy with that, and I imagine any boiler design engineer would be also.  I also had an inspector certificate the boiler for me, mainly to ensure there were no leaks.

Since completing the boat last year, a series of problems (not boat related!) have prevented me from re-certificating the boiler, so apart from extensive bench testing, I have restricted live steaming to test runs on very secluded water, with no members of the public around.  When in public, I've used the alternative electric drive - very successful! Hoping to get re-cetificated this winter.

Regards

Ted
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: Ted Welding on November 20, 2011, 07:02:52 pm
A bonus today! - Two parts together!
It's happened because I've realised I don't have any photos of the next stage (Part 12), which would make the post rather short.
I'm really sorry about the photo showing the making of the gunwhales in part 13 - it was the only one I had! (and yes, it is yours truly)


‘Natterer’ – A shipbuilding Odyssey? – Part 12

By this stage, I’d temporarlily had enough of the mechanicals, and decided it was time to work on the decks and topworks.  But since varnishing the hull, I’d been talking to a friend about the problems I was having with a vintage electric launch, constructed with similar sized planks to Natterer.  Every winter, after a season on the river, she would dry out and the planks would shrink.  The next season she would leak like a sieve until she took up again.  My friend is very much in to model yachting and suggested I should try one of their techniques by glassing the hull on the outside.  Apparently the model aircraft boys use this as well to cover the wings. Very wary about this, but decided to experiment on an old hull.  I used a very fine glassfibre cloth, almost like a thin sheet of satin, draped over the hull and stippled through with resin.  It becomes instantly see-through, and can be moved around to cover the contours of the hull.  When dried, it can be further resined to cover any “starved” areas, and then polished to a high gloss.  The finish is superb, with no seam lines, and in fact it is impossible to tell it is there other than on a sharp edge, which will end slightly rounded! 

Anyway, I next tried it on the vintage launch and it was fantastic!  No more shrinkage/leakage problems.  So after a couple of seasons with the launch, and no ill effects, I took the bull by the horns and turned Natterer upside down before slavering paint stripper on all my nice varnish.  (Yes – it took a lot of nerve!) When every last trace of varnish was off, I draped the cloth over her and started with the resin, working from the keel outwards.  It was quite amazing the way the cloth could be moulded to the hull, and I found that one piece of cloth covered the whole hull in one go, with the only ‘seam’ being on the stem (which of course is covered by the brass stem piece.  I seemed to be polishing for a week, but what a finish!  Obviously, you couldn’t use this technique on a lot of scale boats, as the finish would be too high, but the steam launches were ‘big boy’s toys’ and generally finished to a very high standard, so quite acceptable.

I’m afraid no pictures for this stage (I was as nervous as h***, and forgot to take any!

So lets go straight on to the next part


‘Natterer’ – A shipbuilding Odyssey? – Part 13

Anyway, on to the topworks.  Natterer is flush-decked fore and aft, and also in the mid-section, over the power-plant, with fore and aft cockpits for crew and passengers.

Nothing particularly of note about the basic deck framework and planking, as it was all straightforward framing, albeit of quite large size.  The planking on the mid-section was parallel, but that on the fore and aft decks was gently curved to follow the line of the gunwhales, before being joggled into a kingplank on the centreline, and so had to be cut out of extra-wide stock. Black card was used on the planking edges to represent the caulking.

The gunwhales themselves were a challenge, as they were 20 x 3mm in section and I wanted them in one piece from bow to stern.  This entailed persuading them to follow the line of the gunwhale, meaning they had to be curved in the plane of the minor axis (i.e. flat)  This meant steaming, and a steam chest was rigged up using a length of copper pipe, well lagged, and a domestic wallpaper steam stripper to produce the necessary steam.  The shape of the gunwhale was transferred to the building board, and a series of blocks screwed down each side, which would enable the timber to be clamped in position after steaming.  The gunwhale was to be bent on a rather tighter radius to allow for the inevitable relaxation that would occur when the clamps were loosened.

The gunwhales were steamed for about fifteen minutes, and then quickly transferred to the board, where myself and a friend clamped them up.  Absolute poetry in motion, as the pair of us danced and wove around each other wielding wedges and hammers – actually a lot of tripping up, hitting of thumbs and even a few naughty words. When dry, they were released, and relaxed as anticipated to take up the required shape, before they were firmly screwed to infill blocks between the gunwhale strake and the internal stringer.  Job done!

The remaining timber works on the deck included making access hatches in four locations, each with an inset brass lie-flat handle.  No commercial items available at this sort of scale (if indeed at any scale) so they were hacked and milled out of brass sheet, and yes, they do work!  There is a very pretty looking skylight over the engine so you can look at the whirly bits while they’re working (shades of looking at the engines on the Isle of Wight ferries when I was younger (much younger)

While making the handles for the hatches, I realised it was really quite difficult to envisage the size of fittings required, as with the odd scale of 1:4.5 the crew was going to be rather large – in fact the captain is 16” (400mm).  The solution was to produce “George”, an articulated two-dimensional figure, which could be sat in the boat as necessary and enabled me to sort out seat heights, wheel sizes, reversing levers, Windermere Kettles and so on. Very useful, and I’ll use similar mock-ups while building any future boats.
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: ooyah/2 on November 21, 2011, 09:25:00 pm
Oops! - mucked up the posting - full text as follows:


Hi George,

Yes, Natterer takes some stopping! Having said that, the small steam launches on Windermere generally chugged around at perhaps only 4 to 5 knots, and oddly enough, Natterer looks best at relatively low speed - she looks altogether too hurried when flat out, albeit she sails very well at top speed.  I take your point about the reversing servo - mine is steel geared, but more because I had the servo rather than anything else.  The rudder servo is ahigh torque servo, as the rudder is very large, and I imagine the forces on the servo are high.

The boiler is indeed very similar to K.N.Harris' design, and I do imagine this had some influence on the design.  I mentioned when I acquired the boiler that I checked the design thoroughly (I was a civil engineer, and latterly worked in a consulting engineers design offices) Really it was a reverse design exercise, and involved reverse designing to confirm the boiler would be good for up to 120psi (working), with a factor of safety of 10  - quite happy with that, and I imagine any boiler design engineer would be also.  I also had an inspector certificate the boiler for me, mainly to ensure there were no leaks.

Since completing the boat last year, a series of problems (not boat related!) have prevented me from re-certificating the boiler, so apart from extensive bench testing, I have restricted live steaming to test runs on very secluded water, with no members of the public around.  When in public, I've used the alternative electric drive - very successful! Hoping to get re-cetificated this winter.

Regards

Ted


 Hi Ted ,
You have me confused, you say that you had a boiler inspector test your boiler and certificated it to 120 psi.
Now as it was a boiler with an unknown history with no certificate it would need to be tested as a new boiler which should be tested to twice the working pressure which at 60 psi. needs the 120 psi hydraulic test.

You previously said that the engine runs between 30 psi and 90 psi so if you have run the engine at 90 psi you must have screwed down the safety valve  which invalidates your test certificate as the inspector would have set your safety valve to lift at 60 psi and marked your pressure gauge accordingly

When you have another test done I would suggest that you get it hydraulic tested to 180 psi which will keep you insured at all pressures up to 90 psi.

The boiler looks as if it's a perfectly well engineered one and 180 psi shouldn't be of any trouble.

Please don't think that I am being a Job's worth but you may go to some club meeting and on inspection of your certificate which is for your boiler /engine working at 60 psi and when asking you to fire it up the pressure goes well above the 60 psi mark without the valve lifting you might be refused permission to sail under steam as your certificate will be deemed invalid.
George.
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: Ted Welding on November 22, 2011, 10:39:16 am
Hi George,

Sorry about the confusion - Most of the sections were written years ago, before I actually put the whole boat together. When I purchased the boiler, I thought I would be probably be running the engine at 60 to 90 psi. When I did the calcs, it indicated the boiler would be OK for better than 120psi working pressure, so no problems.  The boiler was then inspected and tested to 180 psi, in line with my assumed top end working pressure of 90 psi. The 120 psi working pressure mentioned in the text was the pressure I calculated the boiler could run at if required, but I never intended it to run at that pressure.
In practice the boat runs perfectly at pressures between 30 and 60 psi.
The original boiler test was carried out about ten years ago, and the regulations have changed a lot since then, as you are aware.  The boiler will have to be re-submitted as a new boiler, and tested accordingly, but until I get around to that, she never sails under steam with anyone around.  Thank heavens for the dual drive!

Ted
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: ooyah/2 on November 22, 2011, 08:30:50 pm
Hi Ted.
I'm like Saul ( Paul ) after his Damascus road experience when the scales were lifted from his eyes and things became clear.

As you have already had the boiler certificated, all be it 10 years ago, if you still have the certificate it needn't be classed as a new boiler and pressure tested to twice the working pressure.
You can have it tested to 1.5 times the working pressure of the original test and if you only wish to run  at a max of 60 psi the boiler inspector can set the valve to lift at 60 psi and you still have the greater capacity up your sleeve if you ever wish to use it, but remember if you ever alter the safety valve setting you will require another test.

I totally agree with you in the max of 60 psi which is ample to drive your modified launch engine, at 90 psi you would be competing with my flash steamer and you would scare the living day lights out of your crew.

I read with interest your reluctance to strip the varnish from the hull but the success of coating it with glass cloth and resin will keep the hull good for years.
My steam tug CERVIA at 42" long is now about 45 years old and when building I sanded the outside and coated it with several coats of resin, wet and dried between coats and to date there is not even a sign of cracking or blemishes.


Don't be afraid to sail your launch with some public around, there is so much scare mongering about boilers exploding and people being injured.
I have been involved with steam boats /boilers and engines for the last 40 years and to date I haven't ever seen a boiler explode even some boilers that I would refuse to test but for your own peace of mind get it certificated and go out and enjoy sailing your launch.
George.

P.S.
 Please put some threads on George, here is a couple of pics showing the hull condition after 45 years
(http://s9.postimage.org/5ny2ptprv/CERVIA_4.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/5ny2ptprv/)

(http://s11.postimage.org/arfp34n6n/CERVIA_5.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/arfp34n6n/)
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: Ted Welding on November 24, 2011, 09:51:20 am
Hi George,

She's in beautiful condition for a 45 year-old!  A very nice model.
The epoxy skinning really seems to work well - since I skinned the vintage launch by way of experiment some seven or eight years ago it has stood up to a relentless yearly regime on the river and never given any problems - i trust Natterer will be the same.

Regards

Ted
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: Ted Welding on November 25, 2011, 01:37:44 pm
Moving on!


‘Natterer’ – A shipbuilding Odyssey? – Part 14

The major item on deck has to be the casing over the boiler.  I first attempted this in aluminium, but found I could not satisfactorily rivet the thing together, so had to resort to brass sheet again and accept the weight penalty.  The casing is screwed to the deck, and carries the funnel on a foundation ring, again in brass.  The funnel you see is actually a sham, as the heat from the boiler acting on the white-painted funnel would have soon discoloured the paint, and that wouldn’t have done for the proud owner of a steam launch!  Inside the outer funnel there is an inner funnel, slightly smaller and shorter, which carries the actual nasties.

The wheel is loosely based on Bat’s, and was formed with a brass rim, pierced for turned spokes, all assembled into a hub.  The wheel and chains turn, but are not connected to the steering – I had to draw the line somewhere!

The concoction sitting on the boiler casing that looks a bit like a tea urn is actually a Windermere Kettle.  A lot of the Windermere launches carry them to provide boiling water to make tea to go with the sandwiches and cream scones which were de rigueur at this time (and still are!).  Basically a copper can in which a coil of copper pipe is wound.  Steam from the boiler is passed through the coil, and heats the water in no time at all.  The kettle on Natterer does work, but I don’t use it as I haven’t yet figured a way to connect the kettle and still allow the deck to be removed!  (Anyway, it doesn’t provide enough boiling water to give me a decent mug – sorry – cup of tea – our Victorian ancestors wouldn’t use such a vulgar word as mug when partaking of the pleasures of a sail on Windermere)

Finally, the pressure gauges, whistle and safety valves are not attached to the deck or casing, but are fastened to the power-plant and protrude through suitable openings in said deck and casing.  I had thought I might like to exhibit the launch if it turned out well, preferably with the power-plant alongside, and you may also remember I had the facility to run the launch under electric power alone.  Both these requirements meant the gauges, whistle and valves would be missing from the boat, and so a duplicate set of valves and gauges was made up on a panel which can be readily bolted with one bolt to the underside of the deck, thereby making Ted happy again.

A grating was built to cover the burners, which obtruded slightly into the forward passenger well, and bottom boards and seats were made up.  Various pieces of brasswork in the form of bollards and fairleads were scattered around, and steamed curved coamings were fastened on the front and rear of the cockpits.  Finally a suitable twirly thing to go on the end of the propshaft was procured from the Prop Shop, who cut down a 5” prop to 4.5” for me; Diane Carney of steam-engine fame provided etched nameplates, and Mike Allsop (Scale Flags and Ensigns) painted a super-size red ensign for me.
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: gondolier88 on November 25, 2011, 02:16:21 pm
A real work of art Ted, you can be justly proud of the detail you have put into this model. It's so refreshing to see a Windermere boat modelled as a Windermere boat was built.

The boiler casing is beautiful, in reality full size, if the boiler casing had been made in brass it would have been left bright, I may have been tempted to keep it that way on the model too. Indeed, Alfred Sladen's next boat after Bat, Otto (although named differently at the time he designed and owned her), had an all brass funnel that was kept polished at all times. Only a little detail that I noticed in a very old description of her, and at the next opportunity I got I scratched the paint on the funnel on Otto fully expecting to find a steel replacement, but instead found brass, to which it will return. The rivetting is superb too- I can't see a head out of line or mis-shaped.

On top of that, a WORKING steam kettle!!!

Would you ever consider making another Windermere boat?

Greg
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: thelegos on November 28, 2011, 09:51:25 pm
Hi Ted, thank you again for sharing your work, excellent as always plus a glimpse of your good self in action!! I'm glad the rudder information was of interest.
Roger
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: Ted Welding on November 30, 2011, 05:51:12 pm
Hi Roger & Greg,
Many thanks for your further kind words - it's what makes all this work worthwhile!
I did consider leaving the boiler casing bright, but then thought about the cleaning, and quickly changed my mind!  The funnel is aluminium, so no opportunity there either. 
I did think about 'Branksome' as a possible project, possibly utilising the same boiler/engine, so I could drop the plant in to either.  Unfortunately, at the same scale as 'Natterer' she would come out at about 10' long, so swiftly dropped that idea.  Anyway, I don't think I would want to commit myself to the amount of time it would take.  I've just started to build a model of 'Kingfisher' in full frame, so that will probably take me a few years!  ('Kingfisher' - A swan class sloop of war of 14 guns See     http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://collectionsonline.nmsi.ac.uk/grabimg.php%3Fkv%3D184337&imgrefurl=http://collectionsonline   )
As regards Kitchen rudders, I think I might just return to them again next year!

Anyway - on to part 15 of the 'Natterer' story.


 ‘Natterer’ – A shipbuilding Odyssey? – Part 15

There is a lot of debate in model boat circles as to whether a crew should be included on a boat.  My own view is that an open launch such as Natterer looks daft sailing without a crew on board, so something had to be done.  You will recall that the scale of Natterer is 1 to 4.5: this meant the average adult scaled down to around 16” (400mm) Now although I think my modelling skills are reasonable, there was no way I could produce figures at that scale and have them look remotely realistic.  So I had to look elsewhere.

After a lot of searching, I eventually found Shirley Nason, of Kent Garden costume Dolls, who was prepared to produce me a couple of dolls dressed in late Victorian costume.  It was an interesting experience as the two fields of model boats and costume dolls don’t often cross, and Shirley had her own way of doing things which didn’t always chime with mine!  For example, Shirley’s dolls use bisque heads and lower arms allied to a body which is basically a rag doll.  The dolls are traditionally displayed standing using a frame, and the lower legs (also in bisque) are hidden and tiny (No – I haven’t a clue why – they just do it that way!).  My problem is that the crew had to be sitting down with feet showing, and the concept was alien to Shirley.  We came to a compromise in that Shirley produced the dolls in the traditional way, and sent me the feet from a larger doll, which I grafted on.  I then stripped the dolls of their clothes and modesty and produced an aluminium frame to which the body and extremities were sewn so that I could pose the dolls as necessary.  This worked a treat, and the dolls now sit in the boat by means of a spike emanating from somewhere the sun doesn’t shine, to allow me to fasten them in when sailing.

The clothing Shirley produced was exquisite, and included all the embroidered underclothes, even down to the detachable bustle under m’ladies skirt!  We had some problems with the father, as we couldn’t find a suitable male face, so ‘he’ is actually a ‘she’, with the addition of a set of whiskers.  I won’t go any further down that route!

So good were the figures that we commissioned a further two from her, depicting a couple of children, who sit and stand in the front well, because the young lad won’t behave himself.

I probably can’t do better than reproduce the information given on the display card that goes with Natterer when she is on display:

Crew: Father is so proud of his new toy, and the opportunity to show it off, totally ignoring his rather apprehensive wife, who worries about her two children in the bows and the whole idea of boating. The son won’t keep still, and has to see where they are going, while his sister, who disapproves of everything her brother does, appears not to be enjoying the experience at all. Figures all by Shirley Nason of Kent Garden Costume Dolls.

Sadly, Shirley was getting on, and these were I think the last dolls she produced before having to give up commissions in order to look after her ailing husband
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: rmaddock on November 30, 2011, 08:18:47 pm
I know others disagree Ted, but I think the dolls are wonderful!
I don't think the fact that they are obviously not "real" detracts at all. Rather, it adds to the charm.
They also remind me of the sort of very genteel children's television programmes  on which I was raised.  I can just imagine the nice lady's voice narrating the not-at-all-animated story of the family of dolls as they have adventures here and there. :embarrassed: I imagine that they frequently had problems with a tear-away teddy bear.  %%
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: pugwash on November 30, 2011, 10:25:07 pm
Ted I think it looks a classic, despite that rather dodgy beard on Dad. I trhink you have done an excellent job.
I wish my woodworking skills were half as good.

Geoff
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: irishcarguy on December 01, 2011, 06:15:12 am
Ted, beautiful craftsmansship throughout & amazing attention to detail. You can be justly proud of your endeavours. You have reached a fantastic level of detail & overall quality, words fail to describe the skill level you have reached in this build, thank you for sharing with us. Mick B.
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: Ted Welding on December 04, 2011, 04:58:59 pm
Well, we've got there! - This is the final part.


‘Natterer’ – A shipbuilding Odyssey? – Part 16

I think this is the point where all the articles in the magazines say ‘on the water’.
Natterer was finally launched in 2010, some 33 years after the idea germinated.  She sailed beautifully, and exactly on her marks, with no ballast required.  Just as well, really, as by calculation at the start she was supposed to carry about 5lbs of ballast – remember what I said about the weight creeping up?  Actually, I was very pleased, as 5lbs on a displacement of 80 lbs is only just over 6%.

She looks absolutely ‘right’ on the water, at a scale speed of about 6mph – the sort of speed at which these boats were normally sailed.  She can sail much faster, but it doesn’t look right for the type of boat she is. Handling is impeccable; she turns well, and has a very steady attitude in the water, being very little affected by the wash from other boats, and cutting through waves rather than lifting excessively as a smaller boat does.  Altogether very happy!

I’m delighted to say ‘Natterer’ took first in class on two successive years at the Northern Model Boat Show, and was given a ‘highly commended’ at Harrogate. 

Although she looks absolutely ‘right’ with the crew on board when on the water, I wasn’t so sure she still looked correct when on display, so a spin-off project followed on in the winter of 2010, when I thought she might look rather good displayed on a timber carriage.

The carriage is a typical timber wagon of about 1900.  When moving the Windermere steamboats on land, the usual recourse was to derrick the boats onto whatever transport was available, usually belonging to the local timber contractor, and hitch up a team of horses or a traction engine. It must have been a frightening sight to see a boat such as ‘Dolly’ coming down the Kirkstone pass, as happened at one stage.

The wagon was going to be rather large, with a distance of 2’ 5”  (725mm) between axles.  A set of drawings was obtained taken from an actual wagon, and a friend arranged for a set of four steel ‘tires’ to be rolled and welded where he works.  The tires are 9” diameter, so big!

I won’t bore you with the details of making the carriage, as obviously building a wagon is a different discipline to that of building a boat.  Suffice to say it used up just about all my stock of beech, saved from a skip in about 1970, and I managed to file my way through several sheets of steel producing the fittings.

People have asked me from time to time what it costs to build a launch like this.  I've kept a record of everything I bought for her over the years. If I adjust the costs for bits I've bought over the last 30+ years into present day prices; include every valve, pipe, nut and bolt; and also add in present day commercial costs for items which I obtained cheaply such as the boiler and the wood (Remember I obtained the boiler for very little money, and a lot of the timber was free - courtesy of Granny) then the cost comes out at a staggering £5000+ !!!
In practice, if I was to build her again, then I think I would still be looking at half that at least. Makes you gulp, but If I think of it as an average cost over 33 years of building pleasure, then £76 a year doesn't sound nearly as bad! (or even £152, as the chancellor has just pointed out)

So to finish. 33 years and a lot of enjoyment, balanced by moments when I just wanted to heave her on to the bonfire.
Am I happy with her now she’s built? – Very much so!
Would I build another? – I haven’t enough time left!

Thank you for following the build, and in particular all those of you who have put finger to keyboard with comments and discussion.  I shall now retire to my workshop and stop bothering you.  All the very best to you, and keep modelling!

Ted


Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: kiwi on December 04, 2011, 06:48:48 pm
Absolutely Stunning.
Thanks so much for all your words and all the pictures.
Have followed every post and eagerly looked forward to the next.
Has inspired me to try that little bit harder and put a bit more effort into lifting my skills.
Will probably never reach your level, but not for want of trying.
Well done, both boat and carriage are magnificent.
kiwi
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: thelegos on December 04, 2011, 08:15:34 pm
Hi Ted,

Following Natterer has been an absolute pleasure, made even better by great pictures and your writing style and humour. I've learned about the Kitchin rudder, been inspired by steam and have a far greater appreciation of what goes into actually building a model boat as an alternative to kit assembly. The wagon is the icing on an excellent cake!

Thank you for your time and sticking at it, I'm sure there are very many of us who appreciate the time and effort. Please be assured I shall read it again, as will a lot of other people keen to see how it should be done  :-))

Roger



 
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: kiwimodeller on December 05, 2011, 09:36:20 am
When do you think you will be able to start on the Traction Engine to tow the wagon Ted? I know its not a boat but if it is built for the purpose of towing a boat surely you should be allowed to sneak a few posts about building it on to Mayhem? Cheers, Ian.
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: steamboatmodel on December 05, 2011, 04:05:25 pm
I have found Natterer's Odyssey not only very enjoyable but very informative. I feel like I have been invited into your shop to sit and have a cup of tea and talk about your wonderfull model.
Thank you Ted,
Regards,
Gerald.
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: Reg Hinnant on December 08, 2011, 03:21:44 am
 :-))
Ted,
Thank you for all your posts & information. She is absolutely lovely!
You need to get started on the traction engine!  %%
Reggie
Title: Re: Natterer - A shipbuilding Odyssey?
Post by: John Maguire on February 05, 2015, 05:30:49 am
Ted, this is breath taking. You are a true Wizard. How could all of this been done in only 33 years?


Respectfully,
John Maguire
Seattle