Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Steam => Topic started by: muleears on April 18, 2012, 10:30:29 pm
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Apparently, MiniSteam learned something about shipping after the fiasco with my first Victoria that arrived damaged. This one arrived (at a friends house because they wouldn't ship to me) unmolested by UPS. The first boat exhibited signs of the box being crushed. This one did not. But most importantly, MiniSteam packed the INSIDE of the kit as well. The first kit was just loose in the Krick box. This one, as you can see in the pics was carefully packed inside to prevent the damage that happened the first time. Well, enough of that. Time to BUILD! %%.
I will be working on this boat for the time being right where you see it, on our kitchen table. I will be using this thread for guidance from you'all in the construction of this beautiful boat. I already have a PMR 8M V twin built and ready to go, a MacSteam 3.5" boiler and fuel tank and a JR 6 ch. radio. I have built many kits of various types, planes, electric and gas speedboats and I have partially built an African Queen (Billing Boats). But I have never undertaken something such as this. I will need to move on this at a sprightly clip as the Christening is scheduled to take place July 9th at our annual family reunion! So I have little more than 60 days!
Advice on the first steps of construction are welcomed! Below are some pics of the kit and my boiler/motor. Thank you all in advance, you are a great bunch and I am very much looking forward to this.
(http://s12.postimage.org/cuk5b760p/SAM_2602.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/cuk5b760p/)
(http://s7.postimage.org/6d58n97nr/SAM_2603.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/6d58n97nr/)
(http://s7.postimage.org/uv1xovzlz/SAM_2604.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/uv1xovzlz/)
(http://s7.postimage.org/qoh39k007/SAM_2605.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/qoh39k007/)
(http://s7.postimage.org/7knrt7n5z/SAM_2606.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/7knrt7n5z/)
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60 days? seems like forever to me but maybe i should slow down i tend to rush my builds. Good luck with the build. :-))
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60 days? seems like forever to me but maybe i should slow down i tend to rush my builds. Good luck with the build. :-))
I'm afraid 60 won't be enough. I will be learing as I go, plus I have a full time job and other responsibilities! Weekends will be my primary time for building. For example, all I got done last night was the cradle put together! Four pieces! I figure (while at work, on breaks etc.) I'll read the instructions. It appears I will have to use the German instructions too. Some of the diagrams the english instructions refer to are only in the German version!
Tonight I hope to remove the hull from the excess ABS. I am a little unclear on exactly what I am cutting off. I don't see the "line" the instructions refer too as the line I am to follow with my cut. Is there supposed to be any lip left on the hull, I'm thinking not. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
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Now the questions begin! I have removed the excess ABS from the hull, it wasn't as difficult as I expected, I was afraid I would slip and the knife would slice into my hull! I still have to sand off the sharp edges but the bulk is gone. In reading ahead in my directions I see that one of the first steps is to attach the deck supports (inside the hull) and the rubbing strakes which are outside. My question is this; when do you finish these parts? Do you attach the raw wood and finish at a later point or finish them before attaching? The rubbing strakes are mahogany and will be finished (at some point) with a satin polyurethane, they won't be painted. This brings up another question, when do you paint the hull? Some of these parts need to be soaked to soften enough to bend to shape, these parts cannot be finished first can they? I know this is a bunch of basic questions, any input is greatly appreciated. Hopefully in a week or two my questions will slow down and become more intelligent~ %%
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Hi Muleears, bes way I found was to sand the edges of the deck to a snug fit in the hull and assemble the deck beams to the underside of the deck (after marking out from the plan). Clamp the beams at the edges as there is quite a camber. Whilst that is drying, fit the deck supports to the hull, 1.5 mm down if memory serves me,check first. Do not fit the rubbing strakes untill after the deck is planked, as the upper one is flush with the upper surface of the planking. When deck supports are ffitted, you can fit the previously assembled deck. Once the deck is in place, make up the two bulkheads, plank one side of the front bulkhead after fitting the engineroom floor support, and add the dummy door.
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fix the floor support to the rear engine compartment bulkhead, and fit these in place DD NOT Glue in place yet. Next drop in the engineroom floor, you will probably have to tilt the rear bulkhead backwards to get the floor in, then push it all together. Now jump ahead a bit and open up the hole in the hull for the shaft and slide it into place, through the hole in the bulkhead, you will, eventually have toreduce the length a little to accomodate the steam plant. Now is the time to start planning the engine room layout, it will be very different to what is shown on the plan as you are using a horizontal bouler, but dont worry, it will all go in. Well, that should keep you busy for a little while, I will post some photos when I get home tomorrow or Saturday. Oh, and dont worry about the paintwork just yet. Happy building and good luck.
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Thanks for the pointers Nick. I'll have plenty of questions about mounting this motor, I am sure. I understand about not adding the rubbing strakes till the deck is installed and planked but when do I finish the strakes and the planking? Is it done after its attached to the boat? What about waterproofing the interior? Should I varnish the ribs and deck supports and such to protect them from water absorption before installation? Regarding the propshaft; Ian suggested that I install it at an angle that would allow slightly more prop clearance, as he says the motor will have plenty of power and a larger diameter/higher pitch prop will allow it to run slower and use less steam. Seems to me the way it is designed the angle of the propshaft is pretty much fixed. I guess I will have to trim (or shim) the two fillets that go above and below the propshaft (stuffing box?) after it exits the hull.
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I glued a lot of parts this morning... somebody tell me if I've got some of these bits in the wrong place before I glue the deck on please! The pics show the deck upside down and placed on the hull.
Nick: You instructed me to now make up the two bulkheads and plank them, which two bulkheads are you speaking of?
(http://s13.postimage.org/8jza5syhf/SAM_2607.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/8jza5syhf/)
(http://s13.postimage.org/bvxkz3q8j/SAM_2608.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/bvxkz3q8j/)
(http://s13.postimage.org/j0fe84xhv/SAM_2609.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/j0fe84xhv/)
Thanks!
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Good afternoon Muleears,. As far as I can see your deck is ready to be fixed down, so go ahead and fix it. There is a support for the rudder servo to go in, the instructions say to fix it before the deck goes down, but I left mine till later in the build and shimmied it into position, either way, fit the servo first or you will have a job getting it in through the small hole in the deck. You are best fitting the rubbing strakes before you shape them, it is much easier to work on them when they are fixed in place and you can eye the job up as you shape.I am using a 65mm coarse 3 bladed prop and find it is ideal, don't bother with the supplied plastic one, it has nowhere enough pitch. I will post some photos for you later, arrived home to find my computer had gone on the blink and I have had to reinstall windows, as soon as I have reloaded all my photos I will post them. :-)) :-))
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I have ordered a 2441 prop from the PropShop as recommended by Ian. It is 2.4" (61mm) with a 4.1 pitch. I believe it is a 4 blade.
I may be at a slight standstill as I can't fit the servo until the radio I purchased arrives.
I thought I would wait on the rudder doubler also. I could not tell from the plans precisely where they went, so I thought I would wait till I was mounting the rudder to add them.
Thank you for the help Nick, sorry to hear about your PC, hope everything loads ok.
Regards
Cal
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I forgot to ask, there are two 3mm square strips, (part number 10) the aligning strips for part 115, that I cannot figure out where they go. They are 140mm long. I can only see them on the end view in the plans. I'm stumped with this one.
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Hi Muleears, here's some photos as promised. I have taken the engine etc out so I can get everything finished, so I willtake a decent photo of the pin and disk coupling tomorrow. I do not have plans to hand at the moment, as I am building the boat in my mates modelshop, but I will look into your question about the 1?8 square strips tomorrow and get back to you.
(http://s18.postimage.org/5jve305o5/Trial_fitting.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/5jve305o5/)
(http://s7.postimage.org/6mpa2yf2f/Bit_of_an_alignment_issue.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/6mpa2yf2f/)
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Hello again,here's the rest of the photos I will post more as I find them. I tried the engine in place before building the tilted engine mount, as you can see it would not line up 'flat' I decided to be a bit arty with the planking and put a couple of 0.5 mm maple strips down the deck, they look quite nice now its varnished ( photo to follow). The 1/8 strips may be for the supports for the rear deck and/or cabin wall support strips, I will check. The bulkheads are best planked before fitting, as it will be a pain to do once fitted. Keep the questions coming and I will do my best to provide answers.
Regards,
Nick.
(http://s7.postimage.org/a6ft6i75z/Boiler_reversed_much_better.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/a6ft6i75z/)
(http://s15.postimage.org/n6a3mog4n/The_owner_inspecting_his_power_plant.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/n6a3mog4n/)
(http://s14.postimage.org/fhf5420r1/Fittings_kit.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/fhf5420r1/)
(http://s15.postimage.org/7m7b9vvdz/Maple_inlay.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/7m7b9vvdz/)
(http://s13.postimage.org/rmplivo2b/Planking.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/rmplivo2b/)
(http://s16.postimage.org/enjp934u9/Planking_3.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/enjp934u9/)
(http://s17.postimage.org/65oycqni3/Planking_5.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/65oycqni3/)
(http://s13.postimage.org/p335g9f9v/Planking_continues.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/p335g9f9v/)
(http://s15.postimage.org/ugaddcwpz/Victoria_the_story_continues.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ugaddcwpz/)
(http://s9.postimage.org/gk4arz3zv/Engine_bay.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/gk4arz3zv/)
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Thanks for the pics, they are very helpful. Since I am kind of stuck, I decided I could plank the rudder while I wait for my radio to arrive and to figure out where these part #10 alignment strips go. I'm sure they have to be applied before I glue the deck down. Below is a pic of the only place I can find part #10 on the plans and it is no help in locating it for me.
(http://s18.postimage.org/wsyjgb2d1/SAM_2610.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/wsyjgb2d1/)
(http://s18.postimage.org/u2p7j45o5/SAM_2611.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/u2p7j45o5/)
(http://s18.postimage.org/kyvdweth1/SAM_2612.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/kyvdweth1/)
(http://s18.postimage.org/8bb165p6d/SAM_2613.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/8bb165p6d/)
Included above is a pic of the two alignment strips setting on the bow.
Thanks again Nick, you are most helpful.
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Good Morning Muleears, If you look at the parts layout in the back of the instruction book, you will see drawn on the the picture of the deck the positions for part 10n and some measurements to get them in the right place, they are the top supports for the rear cabin walls and should line up with the oneson the rear of the bulkhead that sits between the engine bay and the rear cabin, best to plank the rear face of the aforementioned bulkhead, between the 2 angled strips while it is still out of the boat, leaving 1/8" between the plank and the strips so the cabin walls can slot in.
(http://s17.postimage.org/drn2v1ojv/Victoria_the_story_continues.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/drn2v1ojv/)
You can just see in the photo the back face of the cabin bulkhead and the planking and angled strips thereon. part 10 should line up with the top of these strips. Rudder is looking good, I put a strip of Mahogony around the perimeter of the rudder to hide the exposed ply of the rudder blank. Another tip, there is a packet of brass nails to simulate the rivets for the brass banding for the rudder, these have to be cut down to about 1/8". do it inside a bag or you will be on your hands and knees for hours looking for the heads that have flown in all directions. Its off to my mates model shop for me now for another day of building and playing with boats of all shapes and sizes, what better way is there to spend an otherwise mundane Sunday! :-)) :-)) :-))
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Just found the German instruction book, you need to look at page 14, the position of parts 10 are shown on the layout of ply sheet 1. they go 24 mm back from the engine bay cutout and 20 mm in from the sides, lining up at the other end with the outside edge of the rear cockpit opening.the mirror of these parts (Part no 103) go on the topside of part 98, which is the floor of the rear cabin. The word 'Teil' means part in German. these parts are shown with dotted lines as they go on the underside of the deck. parts 47 go on the cabin side of the bulkhead, part42, again, the required dimensions are shown. Hope this has helped you figure it out.
Regards,
Nick
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Yes Nick, that was a tremendous help. I now have parts 10 attached. But even with all your help I still made one mistake! I aligned one of them with the inside edge of the cockpit opening instead of the outside... Should I remove/replace it, or can I work around this?
Have trimmed the completed side and planked the other side of the rudder. I have left the last plank (nearest the stern) for when I add the hardware. I think I will plank the edge as you did also.
I now have everything attached to the bottom side of the deck that is supposed to be there. I only have to install the servo mount (as I'm waiting for my servo to arrive...), I assume I need to wait to join the deck and hull until this is done? What glue did you use to join hull to deck? I probably have a servo or two lying around here somewhere, servos are pretty much standard size, maybe I should trim it to fit one that I have and forge ahead?
I know I should plank the aft side of the middle bulkhead before installation, what about the other side? Should I plank the front bulkhead before installation too?
Your assistance has been very valuable, I greatly appreciate it. I am afraid I won't have as much building time today...my lawn is getting taller by the moment... Enjoy your day of building!
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Good afternoon, I would carefully remove the offending strip and fix it in the correct place, as it is needs to be correct for lining up the lower cabin sides, You are best plankinf all the bulkhead surfaces before fixing, also make the imitation door in the front bulkhead, all this will be awkward to do once in position. I used medium cyano to fix the deck down, but be careful you don't get any runs where they can be seen. Use Aliphatic resin to fix the planking down to the deck, its waterproof when dry and sands easily. I have taken some detail photos, these I will post later when I get home. Oh, my humble advice re the lawn, flag it, then it will only need sweeping! :-)) :-)) :-))
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Good afternoon to you too sir! Below is a pic of how it lines up now, what do you think? I may have made a big mistake but I have been applying my planking with CA. Have I screwed up? I would have to wait till wednesday when my local hobby shop opens to get aliphatic resin. I have thin and thick CA, 5 min. Epoxy, and epoxy resin. I also have some "Titebond" white wood glue. Should I have used any of these instead?
Thanks again for the help, oh, regarding the grass, fortunately we've had a downpour and its underwater!
Enjoy whats left of your weekend.
Cal
(http://s13.postimage.org/uqobfyz1f/SAM_2616.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/uqobfyz1f/)
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Hi there, I personally prefer Aliphatic resin for jobs like planking, but Titebond PVA will do just as well as long as it is waterproof. The problems with Cyano are, hard to clean off if you get any on the planks, where as pva wipes off with a damp cloth, You don't get much time to adjust anything, and cyano is very hard and can leave a ridge between the planks when you sand down. Your picture did not appear, so you may have to post it again. Heres some pictures I took today, showing the pin and disk coupling. You need to keep the steam plant as far back as possible as Victoria was intended for a vertical boiler, and you need room in front for the gas tank, as it is best mounted near the burner in order to pick up a bit of radiant heat to help the gas vaporise on cool days, and there is a ladder and the enginemans seat to go in. It also helps with weight distribution when you come to ballast and trim the boat. I have not added ballast where the instructions say, but have put some lead under the servo mount, this way you are moving the fulcrum further back (see Photo).. Apologies for the state of the engine bay, its a bit messy and that's after only a couple of short runs.
(http://s15.postimage.org/lmm84h8iv/Disk_and_pin_coupling.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/lmm84h8iv/)
(http://s7.postimage.org/dj7yzajyf/Disk_and_pin_2.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/dj7yzajyf/)
(http://s18.postimage.org/ew6nxx1at/Modified_Modified_meccano_wheel.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ew6nxx1at/)
(http://s15.postimage.org/bqpqiks4n/Reverse_of_Meccano_wheel.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/bqpqiks4n/)
(http://s17.postimage.org/ghyss6mx7/Rear_of_bulkhead_42.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ghyss6mx7/)
(http://s16.postimage.org/lbo2dijip/Rudder_servo_and_on_off_switch.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/lbo2dijip/)
(http://s18.postimage.org/q3ooxihg5/Balast.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/q3ooxihg5/)
(http://s16.postimage.org/mojjkml3l/Finished_rudder.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/mojjkml3l/)
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Ha, I have seen the photo now, yes, it does seem to line up, but the other end may not when you come to build the cabin but you should be able to work around it. :-)) :-))
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Nick, it has been awhile since I have been able to touch the boat. Lifes other events sometimes intrude on what we want to be doing! And I still haven't cut the grass... Anyway, I have finished planking both sides of the middle bulkhead except around those alignment strips on the one side, not sure how close I can come to them and if I should do the area outside of the strips (see pic). My radio has arrived so I can fit the servo, which will allow me to go ahead and attach the deck, correct? My prop has also arrived from propshop, it looks very well made, and has a LOT of pitch! I guess at this point I can also plank the front bulkhead and finish the rudder. If I am ahead of myself please stop me.
Is your boiler/engine mounted on one piece of wood/brass/stainless/whatever? So it can be removed as a unit? I'm beginning to think about how I'm going to mount this. Did you use the flooring that came with the kit? I have a piece of aluminum that I could probably cut to fit for a boiler/motor combo mount.
Middle bulkhead:
(http://s18.postimage.org/bwon2n551/SAM_2617.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/bwon2n551/)
New prop:
(http://s13.postimage.org/5lt2x4x0j/SAM_2618.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/5lt2x4x0j/)
Hopefully between cutting the grass, working on the car and picking strawberries with the grandkids I'll have some time for the Victoria this weekend!
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Good morning Cal,You may have to mount the engine and boiler as two separate units if you are going to mount the engine in the slanted position (see previous photos) There captive nuts supplied in the kit, with a bit of forward planning, you will be able to utilize these to suit your boiler. If you make a tray for the boiler, fix it from underneath with 2 countersunk screws into the bushes provided on the boiler then fix the tray in place using the captivated nuts, then, when the floor is fixed down, you can just unbolt ehe boiler without fear of nuts being inaccessible under the floor. I will take some photos and post them later. No need to plank the area outside the strips, they wont be seen. I went to within 3mm ( the thickness of the side walls so they will slot in later. I have now got the coaming around the engine bay, tips on that later.
Have fun,
Nick :-)) :-)) :-))
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Thanks Nick, I see your logic. Should I finish the bulkheads before gluing them in place? Did you finish the rudder then add the brass or cover the brass with varnish too?
I'm off to work, so I won't be able to post again till I get there!
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Good evening, some more photos for you. But first the rudder, I have put all the brass work on first, below the waterline it is painted, and the varnish will help to stop the brass from tarnishing.. The first photo has the boiler sat in the boat, that is about as compact as you will get with a horizontal boiler. The next one shows how much room you have left forward, just enough for the gas tank. Quick hint here, when you come to do the coaming, don't soak the 2 pieces No 95 or they will de- laminate, I did mine dry using clamps and a piece of timber wedged off the rear bulkhead, after a practice run to get the clamps etc right, I glued it up and left it over night. when I took the clamps off it held its shape perfectly for fitting to the boat along with the other coaming parts.No 3 is the former for the cabin, part No 106, it has to be beveled first, then glue and clamp overnight, I used epoxy for this as the part is quite stiff and it has to conform to the camber of the deck. No 4 is a general view into the engine bay, the 4 bolts to the left of the engine are for the condenser. No 5 is a view of the baseplate I got from Tony Green Steam Models here in the UK, it started life about 12.5 inches long and was slowly whittled away during the engine bay planning stages. and finally No 6 is the boiler sitting on its baseplate.
(http://s19.postimage.org/4xrpypqj3/Victoria_build_001.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/4xrpypqj3/)
(http://s19.postimage.org/o49ifmwen/Victoria_build_002.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/o49ifmwen/)
(http://s19.postimage.org/uj8jcb34f/Victoria_build_003.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/uj8jcb34f/)
(http://s19.postimage.org/4oyqmj34f/Victoria_build_004.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/4oyqmj34f/)
(http://s19.postimage.org/j9fthcy33/Victoria_build_005.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/j9fthcy33/)
(http://s19.postimage.org/om4nvhlzj/Victoria_build_006.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/om4nvhlzj/)
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Great pics, thanks! Below are two pics of the middle bulkhead, have I planked it properly around the alignment strips?
(http://s18.postimage.org/twa4tpuit/SAM_2619.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/twa4tpuit/)
(http://s18.postimage.org/9woxbnxdx/SAM_2620.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/9woxbnxdx/)
I also have a strip formed to the edge of the rudder and it is drying as I type. I hope to get more done tomorrow...
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Hi there, you appear to have missed out the ledge that the floors sit on, there should be one either side, 5mm x 5mm I think. You may get away with it, the potions are shave/sand a little off the edge of the floor to allow for the thickness of the planking ( probably the easiest) or mark on where the floor support fits and trim the planking. Here's a picture of what it should look like. Incidentally, there is only just enough planking strips for the build, not a lot of room for manoeuvre, I have allready had to get extra to finish off,
(http://s19.postimage.org/sqa81q7bj/Rear_of_bulkhead_42.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/sqa81q7bj/)
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The pic didn't make it, but I realized a couple days ago that I had planked too far down on the center bulkhead. I have already bought some additional mahogany, it was on sale so I bought some not knowing I'd probably need it for the boat. The only catch is that it is about .5mm thicker and 1mm wider (1.5mm X 6mm). If necessary I'll get some more 1x5mm like came with the kit. I'll order some now in fact!
I got the floor supports added to both sides of the center bulkhead and the forward bulkhead, also planked the forward bulkhead and put a strip along the edge of the rudder.
When do you finish all these parts? I assume %) I can go ahead and finish both bulkheads before I put them in the boat? I see you installed your combing unfinished, how will you finish that now, with a brush? How about the rubbing strakes, are they done after installation? With a brush also? I would probably cut them to length, sand and finish then attach. But if thats not the way to do it I won't!
I'm going to go install the rudder servo now. Wish me luck!
Thanks again for all the help Nick.
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I varnished as I went along, gave the bulkheads a few coats before fitting, but try not to get too much on the edges so the glue will do its job properly. I fitted the rubbing strakes and shaprd them afterwards, its much easier than trying to round 2 edges of a 1 metre strip on a bench top .I do all my varnishing with a brush, start off by thinning it 50/50 with white spirit and then give the job a few coats, rubbing down between coats. The last few coats can then be done strength, this way the varnish soaks well into the wood. :-)) :-)) :-))
Regards, Nick.
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Nick,
How did you attach the rudder shaft to the rudder? Epoxy? I don't want conspicuous gobs of glue showing if I can avoid it. Although, at my skill level I shouldn't complain! Also, how did you attach the tiller? The only was I can see is glue. The tiller fits in the slot in the rudder, correct? To me the plans are a little murky about that.
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The rudder stock is fixed with epoxy, then partially covered by the last 2 planks, if you go easy with the glue, all will end up neat and tidy. The tiller is probably one of the last parts to fit, as it will only get in the way and get damaged,from what I can see, it goes in a slot about 1/2" down from the top, I will look into it.No need to actually fit the rudder at this stage, best done when the steam plant is fitted and you are ready for sea trials. Your next major task should be planning your engine bay layout, basically, drop everything into the hull( with the engine room floor loosely in place, shove it all around, line it up and keep playing about with it untill you are happy. If you post some photos while you are doing this, I can offer advice as you go along. :-)) :-)) :-))
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Thanks for the response Nick. I haven't glued the deck on yet, to scared to! I haven't done anything with the floors either. When I glue on the deck should I then add the two bulkheads I have assembled or should they wait? I have assembled the rudder servo support, when did you glue that in place?
I know the evening is getting on over there, I very much appreciate your advice so I won't bother you any more (until tomorrow maybe!).
Cal
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Well, I glued the servo mount in place with CA glue along the bottom and epoxy on the sides. That should hold it! I also got brave and glued the deck on, it is rubber banded, taped and clamped in an attempt to hold it in place with no gaps. Worked pretty well, the largest gaps are at the very bow. When I clamped the stern so there were no gaps it pulled the deck back far enough that there is a gap at the bow. I suppose I can fill it with something, or I guess it could be covered by planking. I'll send a pic in the morning, too tired to now. As always, thanks for the help. I'll start putting the floor in tomorrow and probably do some deck planking. Looks like those first planks that go along the edge of the deck could be a challenge...
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Good Morning Mr Muleears,Do not worry about time diference, I am a bit of a night owl and, I think you are about 5 hours behind me, not that great a difference. As far as the first planks around the deck go, start at the bows and work towards the stern, gluing about 2 inches at a time, take your time and ease the plank around the curves, gluing as you go, use cyano and, if you have any, a little spray of activator. Soaking the bow end of the plank in boiling water helps, and the damp will also activate the superglue, when you get to the stern, leave a half inch overhanging, so after fixing the two side planks down you can mitre in the piece that goes across the stern, leaving a neat join. The forward bulkhead can be fixed in place any time now, but dont glue in the rear one yet as you have to tilt it out of the way to get the engine bay floor in and out, you will probably have to do this a few times when trial fitting the steam plant. I found this set of photos on the net, they are a good reference source, he has made a nice job, but personally, I think he has gone over the top with all the extra planking. Its off to play in my mates model shop for me today, so bye for now.
Keep up the good work,
Nick.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/90322523@N00/sets/72157605148425113/
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I had seen those pics, they are useful and yes, he does plank everything doesn't he! Below are a few pics of where I stand, Fifth is the gap I have at the bow, what can I fill this with? I don't believe I can just plank over it as there is nothing to glue to. Once I get those on, I can plank the rest of the deck, entirely? Or should I wait to finish certain portions? Did you apply your finish as soon as it was planked or did you finish the inside of the boat first. What about the cabin, did you finish the cabin before assembly in the boat or do it after building? Other pics below are where I stand on some of the other parts. Thanks and enjoy your day. I finally got the grass done yesterday but have to do the trimming and change the oil in two cars today. Maybe pick strawberries with the grandkids too, have to check with the missus.
(http://s14.postimage.org/gxvm855jh/SAM_2623.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/gxvm855jh/)
(http://s14.postimage.org/844pr1ikt/SAM_2624.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/844pr1ikt/)
(http://s14.postimage.org/6f0og3971/SAM_2625.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/6f0og3971/)
(http://s14.postimage.org/41iqp2urx/SAM_2626.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/41iqp2urx/)
(http://s14.postimage.org/n08avr0b1/SAM_2621.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/n08avr0b1/)
(http://s14.postimage.org/x5bjz2899/SAM_2622.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/x5bjz2899/)
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Greetings from the UK on a cold, wet and windy afternoon. No photos have appeared this end, if you are having trouble uploading them, try reducing the image size with an image editor, 640 x 480 seems to work OK. I had the same problem with some the other day, they were taken with a really good camera, but the file size was ridiculous. As far as the deck goes, you could either put slivers of wood in the gap and sand flush, or fill it with the filler of your choice, makes no difference as it will be hidden beneath the planking.I gave the deck a few coats of varnish to protect it while I was doing other work, as new woodwork is added do the same, then go over it all at the end of the build. Once the margin planks are laid, start in the centre and work out toward the sides, that way everything remains symmetrical, I did not have the problem of very thin strips at the edges like the bloke on the flikr photos says he had. Draw an accurate centre line down the middle of the deck and you should be OK. I have not built the cabin or fitted out the rear cockpit yet, the hull is being painted at the moment, my mate is doing it for me, he is a painter by trade and does a much better job than I can do, He takes for ever, giving the job about 10 coats but it is worth waiting for. the cabin actually has to be built on to the boat and is not removable, but there is plenty of room inside to work.
Have a nice day,
Nick.
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That's odd, all the pics appear on my end. When I upload them I pick the 640 x 480 size. Oh well, not much of import in them anyway. I have since added the rod to the rudder and I have the strips along the outer edge of the hull in place. That went surprisingly well. Now I'll find the center and start planking. How did you manage to make the joint between the planks and the planking edge a sharp close joint?
I think the gap between the hull and the deck is small enough that I can deal with it with a little filler.
Are you painting the entire hull or just below the waterline? Which brings up another question... how do you determine the waterline?
When you built your rudder did you drill a hole for each nail? Or are they very short and glued in place?
Weather here today is cloudy and about 18 C. Supposed to rise to almost 30 C by mid week. Enjoy what's left of your weekend and again, thank you.
Cal
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I drilled right through the rudder, using the brass banding (which I had already shaped and drilled) as a template, don't forget to cut the pins down to about 3/32" or you wont be able to get a pin in either side, and do it in a plastic bag as the fly every where. To make a neat join at the plank ends, lay the mahogany strip in place with the end overhanging the margin plank and then follow the line with a sharp pencil, once the line is drawn on you can cut to fit, fine adjustments being made with sandpaper. Use a sharp 4H pencil for accuracy, its amazing how thick a pencil line can be and if you cut the wrong side of it errors will occur. The underside of the hull is painted and tomorrow umpteen coats of white will be applied until the job looks good. The waterline is easy, take the marks off the plan, I use a compass for this, or a set of dividers, and transfer to the hull, one at the bows and one at the stern, the stern one being just below the lower rudder mounting block.Turn the hull upside down and prop up untl the two marks are level then make a block of the correct height, tape your pencil to it ans slide the block along the table using the pencil to join the marks together. I have attempted to do a diagram in 'MS Paint' I hope you can understand it. alternately, you could use an engineers height gauge instead of a block of wood, if you can get hold of one. Time for me to take the old dog for a walk now whilst there is a lull in the rainfall.
Take care,
Nick
(http://s19.postimage.org/vtts7fwr3/How_to_do_a_waterline.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/vtts7fwr3/)
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Here's a little diagram showing (I hope) how to mark the ends of your planks....
(http://s19.postimage.org/71u607fkf/Plank_marking.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/71u607fkf/)
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And your pictures have suddenly appeared. Nice work, you are doing fine. :-)) :-)) :-))
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Hope you and the hound stayed dry! Thank you for all the diagrams, they were very helpful. Later tonite I'll post a pic of the planking I have gotten done. Unfortunately its back to work tomorrow, so no fun till 4 pm or so...
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He doesn't go far, he is a 15year old Yorkshire Terrier called Monty, and does not like long walks any more, so we were out and back before the rain started again. :-)) :-)) :-))
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Well, here is the planking I got done yesterday. Got a little carried away on the first side I did and planked too far aft, I know I couldnt tear it up so I matched it on the other side.
(http://s16.postimage.org/6ztwjvdm9/SAM_2628.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/6ztwjvdm9/)
(http://s16.postimage.org/wl64jq0tt/SAM_2629.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/wl64jq0tt/)
(http://s16.postimage.org/qa5ih1oz5/SAM_2630.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/qa5ih1oz5/)
Well, off to work, enjoy your day and thanks again!
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Hi there, nice neat job you have done there. I usually do alternate sides so the planking progresses symmetrically across the deck, on mine I carried on going straight right down the deck, across the engine bay and cockpit openings, trimming the openings as I went along and using the short bits on the bulkheads that way you get a straight run of planks the whole width of the boat, you may have a bit of fiddling when you do the middle bit and the rear end, but looking at your work so far I am sure you will do a good job.
Keep at it,
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))
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Nick, the coaming for the hatches and floor supports, all the directions say is "plywood 3mm" I don't find any 3mm plywood. Should I make them out of scraps or is it here somewhere?
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Hi there, the hatches themselves are the parts you push out of the hatch openings in parts 53 and 98. You need to glue some strips around the underside of the openings, anything will do, I used offcuts of planking, they support the hatches and are not seen.
(http://s19.postimage.org/i704ibs0f/Hatch_supports.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/i704ibs0f/)
Heres a link to a rather good video of a modified Victoria, brilliant sound track! :-)) :-)) :-))
Have fun,
Regards,
Nick
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHFgeC1c85A
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I suspected I'd have to fab something. I can do that. Thanks again Nick and great video!
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I haven't dropped off the earth! Building has just been OBE (overcome by events). I'll get back to it shortly, otherwise my wife will want her kitchen table back!
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I await your next post with baited breath! Nearly finished the paint job on mine, then I can start on the cabin etc.... :-)) :-)) :-)) :-))
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No 5 is a view of the baseplate I got from Tony Green Steam Models here in the UK, it started life about 12.5 inches long and was slowly whittled away during the engine bay planning stages. and finally No 6 is the boiler sitting on its baseplate.
(http://s19.postimage.org/4xrpypqj3/Victoria_build_001.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/4xrpypqj3/)
(http://s19.postimage.org/o49ifmwen/Victoria_build_002.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/o49ifmwen/)
(http://s19.postimage.org/uj8jcb34f/Victoria_build_003.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/uj8jcb34f/)
(http://s19.postimage.org/4oyqmj34f/Victoria_build_004.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/4oyqmj34f/)
(http://s19.postimage.org/j9fthcy33/Victoria_build_005.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/j9fthcy33/)
(http://s19.postimage.org/om4nvhlzj/Victoria_build_006.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/om4nvhlzj/)
I have found Tony Green's site, but I cannot find any information on the baseplate, I do need one, otherwise I'll have to fabricate out of the 1/8" aluminum door push I have. Any other sources?
Cal
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Cal.....if you do go down the path of fabricating your own base plate...make sure it is long enough in one piece to mount all of the boiler + engine components + gas tank + oily water seperator + any other component that is hard tube connected ....steam regulator valve...+ gas regulator if fitted etc........O0...much easier to tube up as one unit & remove as necessary as one unit :-))
The mounting of the servos can be externally connected as necessary........ Derek
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Sorry for the tardy reply, I have been out of town.
That sounds like excellent advice, but don't they get kind of large and cumbersome?
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Hi Cal, I had to mount my engine at an angle of about 15 degrees in order for it to line up with the shaft, so mounting all on one plate didn't work for me. Try emailing Tony Green, as he also has stuff not listed on his site.
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))
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Nick,
In looking at the pics of your Victoria, I see some parts with the finish already applied and some raw. At what point are you doing the finishing work? After assembly, or do you finish each piece before assembly? As you know I have the deck almost completely done, but mine has no wood finish on it. Also, I have been using a polyurethane spar varnish, is that ok? It says it is for outdoor use. I usually apply 4 or more coats.
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Hi Cal, Its a bit of both really, once I had the deck down, I gave it a couple of coats to protect it, then more at the end of the job. If a part will be difficult to get at once it has been fitted, paint/varnish it first. There are no hard and fast rules, its down to personal preference and whats easiest for you. Polyurethane varnish is fine and gives a hard long lasting finish.
Keep up the good work,
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))
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Well, I have the Alexandra put away for the time being and have replaced it with the Victoria. I need to look back over this thread to figure out just where I am in the building process!
Nick, from the plans it appears the ribs go up under the gunwale and extend down to the lower deck. Do they go below the deck or just stop where they meet? I have some spare 1x5mm mahogany that is darker than what came with the boat that would look nice there. Which brings up another question, do you paint the inside of the hull with anything or leave it white? Thanks for any and all input.
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Hi Cal, the ribs go from the deck to up behind the coaming/gunwhale, just enough so you cant see the ends, I used a set of dividers to space them out correctly. As far as painting inside goes, its up to you, I painted between the ribs white to hide a few stray glue marks. I fixed the ribs in place with thick cyano.Keep at it,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))
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Minor milestone today. Put the last mahogany deck plank on. I think next I'll sand it and put a few coats of Nick's 50% polyurethane on it. Then on to the floor and mounting the motor.
Nick, I have emailed Mr. Green regarding a base plate, I'll let you know what I hear.
(http://s13.postimage.org/irhlejqvn/SAM_2895.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/irhlejqvn/)
I have some glue spots to get rid of, cut off all the excess, sand and then put some finish on. If I'm getting out of order please let me know!
Cal
PS: Where can I find a pin and disk coupling? All I can find is universal joints.
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Hi Cal, I made my pin and disc coupling from a Meccano wheel and a small brass flywheel with a roll pin in it, if you look back through the thread I think you will find some photos of it. otherwise you are doing fine. hrer is a link to the Mechano wheels I used, you could use 2 of these with a bolt through one of them for the pin, then cut a slot through from the edge to just past one of the holes in the wheel its self. I think I may have had to open the hole in the boss slightly to suit the shaft.
Looking fine so far,
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))
http://www.meccanospares.com/shop/article_24b./Bush-Wheel-6-Hole-Original.html?sessid=x6vywrEluNqCjNpbHijZVntJ0odX4Lh2oDNXohai8uJm3Y7YhKIkpqn7SqyX9v7V&shop_param=cid%3D68%26aid%3D24b.%26
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Nick, thanks for the link. I realized as I was assessing the status of my build today that I hadn't put on the rubbing strakes and spacers. I located the lumber and stained it dark mahogany, the spacers will stay natural in color, I'm hoping for a little contrast. I am no artist so I hope this attempt at adding some flair doesn't backfire on me! Regarding the rubbing strakes, did you leave yours square or did you round them somewhat? In this pic: http://www.flickr.com/photos/90322523@N00/2486899945/in/set-72157605148425113/ it appears the builder rounded the corners some. What do you think.? It doesn't look like mahogany though. Foolishly, I have already stained the rubbing strakes, so if I decide to sand them, I'll be back to staining...
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Good morning Cal, once the rubbing strakes/spacers have been fitted, just take the sharp edge off the rubbing strakes, it is easier to do this once they are fitted as it is easier than trying to hold thin pieces if wood.. You may need to soak the ends in boiling water to coax them around the shape of the bow, and the short pieces across the stern will also be helped with the same treatment, as there is a bit of a compound curve to overcome.
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))
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Thanks Nick, when I get home from work I'll attach them and we'll see how my little artful experiment works out! :}
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Hi Cal, once you have sorted the rubbing strakes out, you should be looking at fitting the propshaft and steam plant.. If you are using the PMR engine, you will have to nount the servo for the throttle/reverser in the engine compartment, disguised as a crate or tool chest, the method shown on the plan would not be suitable unless you fit a bell crank as the lever runs athwart-ships on the PMR, mounting the servo in the cabin is for engines where the lever moves fore and aft
Happy building,
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))
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I forgot to tell you, I got a reply from Tony Green and they were unable to help me. Any other sources?
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That's strange, I got one from them last year, I will phone them and see what they say. I will have a look and see what I can find and let you know. Failing that, you could make one from Aluminum sheet, an old kick plate from the bottom of a door is a good source of aluminum for this sort of job, or brass if you can find some. Do you have a scrapyard near you, here in the UK most scrap dealers are quite happy to sell bits and pieces of metal.
Regards,
Nick :-)) :-)) :-))
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Have a look at this link, scroll down to the bottom of the page and you will find what you are looking for, Its a bit pricey but it will do the job. There may be a distributor for Miniature Steam in the US, they are actually an Australian company, so It may be worth looking there as well as you may get a better exchange rate...... :-)) :-)) :-))
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Should I have the floor and the middle bulkhead mounted before I do this or do they all need to be done together? I had been thinking about the throttle servo. I was originally thinking about the bellcrank setup but there is no way to disguise that. I hadn't thought of a separate crate to hide it in. How did you finish the floor? The standard polyurethane or some other method. I'm thinking it will see a lot of water and some oil. I don't want it coming apart at some later date. Thanks again.
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Have a look at this link, scroll down to the bottom of the page and you will find what you are looking for, Its a bit pricey but it will do the job. There may be a distributor for Miniature Steam in the US, they are actually an Australian company, so It may be worth looking there as well as you may get a better exchange rate...... :-)) :-)) :-))
Thanks for the suggestion Nick, but the link didn't make it to me for some reason.
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Oops, silly me, I must have forgotten to paste tie link in, so here it is. %) %) %)
http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/Minature-Steam-Engines-Accessories.html
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Regarding the tray for the boiler/engine/gas tank. I am going to check with a local welding/fabrication shop and see if they can fab one up for me. Maybe make it out of sheet brass? Aluminum?
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Either will do , try and get 0.5mm brass to keep the weight down, not such weight problem with aluminum. :-)) :-)) :-))
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Still slowly plugging along, not much time for building lately. Hopefully this weekend. I do have the top rubbing strakes stained and installed. I'm currently working on the spacers. I found that I am one mahogany rubbing strake short, so I have bought some 1/8" square spruce and stained it to match. I don't think anyone will be able to tell the difference. I couldn't find any 3mm square mahogany strips locally.
I am going to have to get creative with the stern, the strakes and spacers are all (except the ones I bought) about 3-5mm short. I really didn't want to splice them to add 3mm...
I'll update again when I get the strakes/spacers all on.
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There is a laser cut part for the spacer at the stern, it is slightly curved top and bottom, on one of the 0.5mm laser cut sheets. The part number will be on the plan, cross reference that with the sheet layouts in the instructions and you will find it. :-)) :-)) :-))
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There is a laser cut part for the spacer at the stern, it is slightly curved top and bottom, on one of the 0.5mm laser cut sheets. The part number will be on the plan, cross reference that with the sheet layouts in the instructions and you will find it. :-)) :-)) :-))
Thanks Nick, I should have known, if all else fails... read the instructions %)
I should get all of this done this weekend and hopefully get started on the boiler room floor.
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There should also be 2 short lengths of 1/8 square mahogany in one of the fittings boxes the correct length for the stern parts of the rubbing strake... :-)) :-))
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Should I proceed to finish the deck (with full strength polyU) at this point? It has one coat of 50/50 on it now. I have the rubbing strakes and spacers on, except the stern. They each have one or two coats of poly on them now I have not installed the bulkheads or the boiler room floor. I have been fiddling with the capstrip and the bow block for most of the evening, trying to whittle them down to where they fit properly. I have them to the point that I am satisfied with their fit and I have put a couple coats of poly on them. I think next I'll install them on the boat. This is what prompted the question about finish on the deck. I'd like it protected from incident (me actually :embarrassed:). What do you think? When did you finish your deck?
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Hi Cal, I put a few coats on the deck to protect it whilst working on the rest if the boat, then a light rub down and a couple more coats to finish at the end of the build.
Keep up the good work.
Nick :-)) :-)) :-))
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Hi Cal, I put a few coats on the deck to protect it whilst working on the rest if the boat, then a light rub down and a couple more coats to finish at the end of the build.
Keep up the good work.
Nick :-)) :-)) :-))
Gloss, semi-gloss or satin? Which is most authentic, which looks best, and which would you use? It may be too late, I have already put a coat of semi on it. I suppose I can cover it with gloss and it will look fine, it that is the preferred type. As always, thanks.
Cal
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Hi Cal,It really depends on what looks good to you. I finished mine with a good gloss, one of the advantages to that is it seems easier to wipe clean of oil and muck chucked out by the engine. Have you tried doing some test pieces? finish several pieces of similar wood with the different finishes you have available, and then pick the one that you think looks the best.
Keep at it,
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))
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Hi Cal,It really depends on what looks good to you. I finished mine with a good gloss, one of the advantages to that is it seems easier to wipe clean of oil and muck chucked out by the engine. Have you tried doing some test pieces? finish several pieces of similar wood with the different finishes you have available, and then pick the one that you think looks the best.
Keep at it,
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))
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A couple pics of how the deck looks in semi-gloss poly.
(http://s11.postimage.org/8cj36jy4v/SAM_2896.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/8cj36jy4v/)
(http://s11.postimage.org/s8f2m3f67/SAM_2897.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/s8f2m3f67/)
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Lookin good..... :-)) :-)) :-))
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I'm not happy with the block on the prow, it wasn't a pretty piece of wood to begin with and my carving it up didn't help. But its permanently affixed now so it will have to do. :((
I think I'm going to switch to gloss from this point on. I hadn't considered your point about clean up. That makes good sense, and with my motor being an oscillator I'm sure it will fling stuff far and wide.
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Indeed it will. It will also make a mess inside, I was going to make 2 pieces of aluminium sheet to fit against the inside of the hull, either side of the engine to stop the oil staining the white paintwork when the engine is running, but didnt get round to it. Now it is very dirty around the engine area. >>:-( >>:-( >>:-(
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A couple pics of the deck with gloss poly applied. I like it much better, good idea Nick. I haven't used any steel wool on this yet either, that will be my next step. I like the uneven nature of the deck planking, looks more realistic to me. If it were glass smooth I think it would look fake and factory made, not hand made.
(http://s12.postimage.org/j3lpqxa2h/SAM_2902.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/j3lpqxa2h/)
(http://s12.postimage.org/trpgprk1l/SAM_2903.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/trpgprk1l/)
Thanks again for the advice.
Cal
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Looking very good mate, you will end up with a nice boat there. Time to start on the engine room next? :-)) :-)) :-))
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Looking very good mate, you will end up with a nice boat there. Time to start on the engine room next? :-)) :-)) :-))
Yes, I suppose so. I am somewhat intimidated by that, getting all the parts lined up properly and plumbed. I'm not good at soldering and the myriad of different threads and sizes of the plumbing pieces is confusing! I think I can mount the engine ok, but beyond that I will have to rely heavily on you and the others who have been so kind as to offer help. I have a small inventory of brass and copper pipe, fittings, valves etc. Problem is, I don't know if any of them fit together!
On an entirely different topic, I think I can make an oil condenser out of this little torch. What do you think? I know others have done it, I have a brass one too.
(http://s14.postimage.org/7sqcdf2r1/SAM_2904.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/7sqcdf2r1/)
(http://s14.postimage.org/lz6lfk71p/SAM_2905.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/lz6lfk71p/)
(http://s14.postimage.org/ygd92q27h/SAM_2906.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ygd92q27h/)
Cal
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Hi Cal, don't be daunted by the plumbing, it's easy Get yourself a mini pipe bender, it will be a great help, best to use either 5/32 or 1/8 pipe, unions are readily available, all you need to do is place all the major components, bend the pipework to suit, slide a union nut over the pipe, making sure it is the right way round, put the coned nipple on and silver solder, simples, try and keep your pipe runs as short as possible and lag with silver foil and string. Heres a link to some handy tips for soldering. Your cannister should make a fine oil seperator, have the exhaust entering at a tangent to swirl the oily steam about so the oil gets thrown out and clean steam can exit to the funnel. The photo will show how simple things can be, so set too and it will soon be done, http://cupalloys.co.uk/silver-soldering-tips-c25.html
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))
(http://s18.postimage.org/692gv8xr9/Pipe_bender.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/692gv8xr9/)
(http://s18.postimage.org/zfakebpid/Engine.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/zfakebpid/)
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Cal....your local hobby supplier of K&S tube will also have the K&S tube benders & cutter...well worth the cost in terms of savings in crumpled tube bends = the scrap box
The first image are the 1/8"& 5/32" tube benders & the cutter, the second image ......clean smooth 90 degree bends with minimal thinning....& the third image <*< >>:-( yes a crumpled 5/32" bend.......prior to the tube benders O0 and the last is 180 degrees in 5/32"brass...........Derek
PS....even with expensive tube cutters you can have problems..... >>:-( with the clearance between the hole in the cutting wheel and the pin that it rotates on....it can lay over and as you attempt to rotatate the cutter, the wheel wants to cut a spiral thread.......
If this happens....try filing a very light mark on the OD of the tube & place the wheel in this mark when comencing the rotation.......it can help
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Thanks for the link Nick it was useful. I have a tubing bender as shown in Derek's pics, not sure what size it is though. I also have some 5/32 brass tubing in 1' lengths. I also have 3' of copper in 5/32". I don't have a cutter, I had read somewhere that the traditional tubing cutters don't work well on such small tubing, that it was better to wrap with tape and cut with a fine tooth saw. What say you? I have several fittings of different sizes, I wasn't sure what went with 5/32 tubing. I have a displacement oiler. I'll have to learn more about that, how often to refill etc.
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As usual my memory was faulty. My stock of tubing includes, 6' in 1' sections of 1/8" brass tubing, 4' in 1' lengths of 1/4" brass tubing. and one 3' length of 5/16" copper tubing and 3 1' lengths of brass in 5/16"(I think). Apparently I was thinking 1/8" was the size to use. I suppose with a smaller motor is may be appropriate, but my PMR M8 will use some steam I imagine and need the larger 5/16" pipe.
Below is a photo of my fitting inventory:
(http://s8.postimage.org/jalo3vja9/SAM_2908.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/jalo3vja9/)
All are copper (except the unions) and threaded, I believe they are the same size too. I guess I will need some taps and dies, but I have no idea what size and thread to get. Can I mix copper and brass or must everything be one or the other?
Not shown in the picture are my displacement oiler and spare safety valve.
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Hi Cal, PMR have a range of pre threaded 3/16 pipe in various lengths, 5/16 is a bit big, 5/32 or 3/16 will be best. I have my PMR piped up with 5/32 pipe and it supplies plenty of steam, you will just need a 1/4 x 40 adapter to connect to your boiler. If you need one, PMR also have a range of dies to suit their tubing.
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))
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Thanks for the link Nick it was useful. I have a tubing bender as shown in Derek's pics, not sure what size it is though. I also have some 5/32 brass tubing in 1' lengths. I also have 3' of copper in 5/32". I don't have a cutter, I had read somewhere that the traditional tubing cutters don't work well on such small tubing, that it was better to wrap with tape and cut with a fine tooth saw. What say you? I have several fittings of different sizes, I wasn't sure what went with 5/32 tubing. I have a displacement oiler. I'll have to learn more about that, how often to refill etc.
Hi Cal, I use my Dremel to cut tubing with, use one of the brown cutting disks, works a treat, just make sure you wash all the swarf out of the pipe.
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))
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Hi Cal, PMR have a range of pre threaded 3/16 pipe in various lengths, 5/16 is a bit big, 5/32 or 3/16 will be best. I have my PMR piped up with 5/32 pipe and it supplies plenty of steam, you will just need a 1/4 x 40 adapter to connect to your boiler. If you need one, PMR also have a range of dies to suit their tubing.
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))
I think I misspoke, I don't believe I have any 5/16, I think it is 5/32, it is larger than my 1/8 and smaller than my 1/4. That sound about right? I hate fractions! >>:-( Why couldn't it just be 3 or3.5mm and so on? Jimmy Carter dropped the ball in 1976 when he didn't make us convert to the metric system... I digress, sorry. I need to get everything mounted before I worry about plumbing anyway.
So you think the little torch will work? That's good, I think it would be a simple little project to ease me into soldering these small pipes.
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Hi Cal, silver soldering pipe ends up couldn't be easier, especially if you use silver solder paste, just clean the job up, smear on a little paste, assemble and heat, you will know when it is done as you will see a nice shiny silver ring around the joint. Leave to cool and clean, if the flux residue is a little stubborn dip it in vinegar or lemon juice for a few minutes, works every time for me...
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))
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Its pouring here... so I can't cut the grass ( :-))) Guess I'll have to work on the boat! In my gunstock refinishing days I was taught not to use steel wool on wood as the fine particles that get left later rust and discolor the wood. So I bought some bronze wool and rubbed down the deck of the Victoria. Seems to be smoother and it shouldn't discolor. What do you wipe it down with after sanding the finish to get the dust off? Can I use paint thinner or will that damage the finish? Or should I just use a tack cloth?
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Hi Cal, tack rag is good, I usually use a soft cloth with a little meths ( Methylated Spirit) first to make sure the job is clean, Keep us posted,
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))
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Do any (or all) of you put a coat or two on all the bare wood in your boat? I'm talking about the back side of the front bulkhead, the underside of the deck, the ribs beneath the floor etc. In my old hydro building days we use to paint the entire frame with varnish to protect it from water damage. Is that still the common practice?
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Hi Cal, best to coat whatever you can reach, that way, you know you are safe from water damage, but try and avoid edges where you are going to make joints, glue is best applied to bare wood for a good strong join.
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))
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I usually use polyurethane as a sealer/waterproofer, put masking tape over the areas you want to be bare the cover every thing else with poly, when it starts to dry peal off the tape. After the joints are glued give them a brush over with poly as insurance.
Regards,
Gerald.
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As usual thanks for the advice gents, good advice all. Now another question. I'm getting ready to begin planking the engine room floor. Can I take a little artistic license here and do something different? For example, can I plank it horizontally (across the beam) instead of lengthwise? Or, better yet, can I do two diagonals meeting in the middle? Or mixing in some wood of different shades? What say you all? Thanks again, I know I will get some great suggestions! :-))
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Hi Cal, personally, I don't think horizontal planking would look good at all. Diagonally from the center line would look better, with a king plank down the middle to work from, alternate planks of contrasting timber would also look nice. Accurate work would be the order of the day to get it looking right.
Keep up the good work,
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))
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I took your advice Nick, what do you think? This is unsanded and unfinished.
(http://s15.postimage.org/sdc7wmhjb/SAM_2917.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/sdc7wmhjb/)
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Very nice, I think you have the balance just right, alternate planks may have looked a bit too 'stripey', 5 and 1 looks just right, wish I could get my woodwork as neat as that....
Thanks for the photo,
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-))
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What about stain for the floor? Do most of you leave it the natural color or add some color of some sort? And what about 'weathering' or 'antiquing' of the deck and floor area? Anyone have any suggestions or pointers?
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Hi Cal, you have to be very careful with weathering and antiquing, It is very easy to over do it. Personally, I leave as is after varnishing and let it age naturally. Whatever you do, try it on some scrap first until you get the result you are looking for. Job's coming along nicely, have you got the engine sorted yet?
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))
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Why didn't somebody tell me :embarrassed: I left one of the mahogany strips out when I finished the deck %) Well, I'll cover it with a crate or something because I can't fix it...
Well Nick... as I think I mentioned before, the engine/boiler/fuel tank/condenser setup has me somewhat intimidated. I thought I would get the floor in then see how everything fit. I know I need to get the major parts located and worry about plumbing them later. I haven't found a mounting plate yet either. I have a source for brass sheets but I don't have the tools to turn the edges up satisfactorily. I may seek out a metal fabricator locally and see what they can do.
Today I plan on planking the forward portion of the floor. This time I hope to put ALL the mahogany in the right place O0..... Also, should I plank over the 'knockout" for the motor or just plank around it?
(http://s7.postimage.org/ylf66tt47/SAM_2918.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ylf66tt47/)
The area inside the red box is the motor knockout.
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Hi Cal, , Originally, I planked the whole engine room floor and then had to cut out the knockout patr as the engine didn,t line up with the shaft, and therefore had to be mounted on the slant, so a careful bit of thinking and pre planning is needed. I sugest placing the deck in the hull and sitting the engine in position, you will then get an idea if it will line up ok. I think I posted some pictures of the engine mounting process in one of my threads, or I could have put them here on yours.
Keep at it mate, it will soon be done..
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))
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Think and plan.... Hah! My entire life would be different if I thought and planned! That is good advice though, I'll test fit the floor in and see if I can get the engine and prop shaft to line up somewhat close. Wish me luck. :-))
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Best of British luck old chap.... and remember the 6 P's, Prior Planning Prevents P**s Poor Performance :-)) :-)) :-))
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Well, here is a ROUGH approximation of what I'm up against. Very tight fit. I think using the same universal joint you did will save me at least an inch. Any advantage to turning the boiler around? Suggestions are welcome!
(http://s9.postimage.org/ac8kawyqj/SAM_2919.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ac8kawyqj/)
(http://s9.postimage.org/cuu9blkgr/SAM_2920.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/cuu9blkgr/)
(http://s9.postimage.org/4qm56uy1n/SAM_2921.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/4qm56uy1n/)
(http://s9.postimage.org/ckmqs95uj/SAM_2922.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ckmqs95uj/)
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A few more pics with the bulkhead in. Also a pic with a 15" X 3.5" aluminum door push as a tray. I could get a brass door push the same size and it would look much better. (If it will work)
(http://s7.postimage.org/4w1kin5if/SAM_2925.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/4w1kin5if/)
(http://s7.postimage.org/bnrzlhuhz/SAM_2926.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/bnrzlhuhz/)
(http://s7.postimage.org/4lu1zaqw7/SAM_2927.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/4lu1zaqw7/)
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Hi Cal, you need to get everything further back, that coupling looks very long, you could also shorten the shaft a bit ( I took about half an inch off mine) have a think about making a disk and pin coupling, saves loads of space and looks much better. If you have too much weight forward, you run the risk of your boat being bows heavy. Try and get everything as compact as possible and as far back as you can and all will be ok.
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))
(http://s19.postimage.org/a5c4ryzv3/Engine_positioning.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/a5c4ryzv3/)
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Here are some pics with everything in the boat (except the condenser). I think I have it moved back as far as I can without moving the shaft (stuffing box). I have it all resting on my aluminum door push, it seems to fit rather well. I will use a brass one but this is a trial run, so to speak. Do I have enough clearance between everything? I know I want the fuel tank near the burner, but how close is too close? I will try your disk and pin method for a coupling. I'll order my Meccano wheels today. Will they fit the crank and prop shafts? Do they have set screws? Thanks again for all the help.
(http://s14.postimage.org/gx8iixht9/SAM_2947.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/gx8iixht9/)
(http://s14.postimage.org/e4faywhgt/SAM_2949.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/e4faywhgt/)
(http://s14.postimage.org/n0q32u831/SAM_2950.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/n0q32u831/)
(http://s14.postimage.org/3k9yu22ct/SAM_2951.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/3k9yu22ct/)
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Hi Cal, the meccano wheels come with 2x 5/32 whitworth grubscrews, you may have to pass a 3/16 drill through the bore to make it fit the shaft, I cant quite remember, I know there there isn't much in it.
Lookin good so far,
Regards,
Nick.
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I just sent an email to Meccano about the parts I need for the Victoria. Paypal was acting up so they told me to send them an email and they will send me a Paypal invoice direct. Very nice of them.
If the Meccano bits don't work I think I"ll try this: http://www.mcmaster.com/#flexible-shaft-couplings/=jbzqmv It appears that it would work. It might not look original but....
I'll post a pic later tonite but I'm beginning to think my door push plate may work as a engine/boiler/gas tank tray. I've figured out how to mount the engine, now I just need to fab a way to align the two shafts. I'm thinking of a bend in the plate between the boiler and the engine which will allow the downward angle I need.
When (and how) did you mount the parts 67 and 68 (I think thats the numbers)? The two parts above and below the propshaft outside of the hull. Did you inlet them so the shaft 'sunk in' or did you just sandwich it between the two and use a filler to smooth it off?
Thanks as always.
Cal
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Hi Ca, lfit parts 68 and 70, one above and one below the shaft, then add parts 72 (found on sheet 5, 2mm ply) one either side, the shaft will then be encased, no need for filler except to fair in where the skeg meets the hull. Some interesting couplings on the Mcmaster site
Regards,
Nick :-)) :-)) :-))
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A few more pics of the proposed engine, boiler, gas tank setup. I may have to move it all forward a little more than shown, depending on how much space my coupling takes up. Remember the aluminum plate is just my template, if it works it will be replaced by a brass plate of the same dimensions. I'm placing this based on the location of the prop shown on the plans, if there is any play allowed there I may have some more room. I plan, as Nick suggested, to shorten the prop shaft, but not until I'm sure of the length. I'm also wondering if I am allowing enough clearance between each, especially the gas tank and boiler. In the meantime, I have finished planking the engine room floor and have several coats of poly on it. My door push/engine mounting plate will not have a lip around the edge, will this be a condensation problem? The angle that the two shafts meet at appears to be about 15*, if I can get this down to below 10* will that be sufficient?
Lots of questions, I know, but I don't want to commit to something that won't work. THANKS as always. O0
(http://s10.postimage.org/fv2ln9rnp/SAM_2951.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/fv2ln9rnp/)
(http://s10.postimage.org/59iqb9lc5/SAM_2953.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/59iqb9lc5/)
(http://s10.postimage.org/60bgh1nph/SAM_2954.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/60bgh1nph/)
(http://s10.postimage.org/i3ldico5h/SAM_2955.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/i3ldico5h/)
(http://s10.postimage.org/3lo6acwud/SAM_2957.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/3lo6acwud/)
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Hi Cal, looking good, gas tank is ok near the burner, the radiant heat will help the gas vaporize in cold weather. A lip around the bed plate will help contain any mess ( oil, Oily water etc ) so you are alright on that score.Try and get the alignment of the shafts as straight as possible, it will cut down on noise and vibration and make for a neater job.
Looking forward to seeing the finished job,
Regards,
Nick. :-) :-) :-)
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Plumbing question... What size fittings do I use with 5/32 tubing? These blasted pipe, fitting and thread sizes still confuse me. I want to use 5/32 throughout (if I can) so what size fittings do I need to order?
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Hi Cal,The threads on your boiler are 1/4 x 40 tpi These are ME (Model Engineer) threads. The pipe work threads on your PMR engine are in MPT ( Modelers Pipe Thread ) they are the same as the UK ME threads but are slightly tapered so your PMR fittings will have this thread. They do sell adapters, so assuming you have the same basic setup as my PMR engine, you will need an adapter to connect 1/4 x 40 ME to 3/16 MPT and some 1/4 x 40 ME nuts and nipples for 5/32 pipe. If you have trouble getting 1/4 x 40 ME pipe fittings, I have included a link to the chap I get mine from. Here.s a photo of the way my engine is set up.
Give me a shout if you have any problems and I will do my best to advise,
Regards,
Nick :-)) :-)) :-))
http://www.steamfittings.co.uk/asp/index.asp
(http://s18.postimage.org/5pemuiait/PM_Research_V_Twin.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/5pemuiait/)
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A couple pics of what I can put together so far. The T and the lubricator are both from PM Research, so they have compatible threads. I have a bunch of 5/32 brass and copper tubing with which to plumb this but none of it is threaded. Won't I need a die to thread all my piping? Shouldn't it be a 3/16-40? Or do I have my terminology wrong? I should be able to plumb most of my setup with what I have. Won't I only need the adapter to connect my 5/32 tubing to the boiler?
The burner for my boiler already has tubing soldered to it but it is smaller, I believe 1/8". The gas tank is a Macsteam also, so I assume it has the same thread as the boiler?
Below are two views of the lubricator and where it will be mounted.
(http://s11.postimage.org/y819h7zdr/SAM_2958.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/y819h7zdr/)
(http://s11.postimage.org/4he4vgee7/SAM_2959.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/4he4vgee7/)
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Hi Cal, to connect your boiler stop valve to the T on the engine, you will need an adapter, from PMR to suit the thread in the T on one side and 1/4 x 40 on the other, ( Ask PMR, that's where I got mine from), 2 x 1/4 x 40 pipe nuts and 2 x 5/32 pipe ferrules. follow the links for examples of what you are looking for.
http://www.steamfittings.co.uk/asp/d-no.asp?ProductID=99&Process=
http://www.steamfittings.co.uk/asp/d-no.asp?ProductID=101&Process=1
Bend your copper pipe to suit and slip a nut over each end ( make sure they are the right way round ) then silver solder a ferrule on to each end of the pipe and you are done. The chap at PMR knows Maccsteam boilers, so he will probably have everything you need, it's worth a phone call. It is a bit tricky trying to explain as your American fittings are slightly different to ours. I will take some pictures tomorrow to make things a bit clearer.
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))
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Some pics of the "alternative" universal joint that arrived in the mail yesterday from Mcmaster-Carr. Interesting, its stiffer than I thought it would be. It should be easily able to take the stresses of our application. Just thought I'd post this for all to see close up.
(http://s7.postimage.org/r008z87d3/SAM_2962.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/r008z87d3/)
Cost was $13.00 + shipping, less than $20 total with shipping (within US).
(http://s11.postimage.org/alagavj6n/SAM_2960.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/alagavj6n/)
(http://s11.postimage.org/rzuoj5gbj/SAM_2961.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/rzuoj5gbj/)
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Cal....I have seen these engines in a maroon color and a dark green & they look fine, however it is hard to beat gloss black & gold hightlights as you have displayed :-)) ..... especially if you combine the same scheme for your boiler, gas tank & de-oiler etc ....Derek
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Good Morning Cal,that is an interesting looking coupling you have there, I may try one on my next project If I can get hold of one.....
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))
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Good Morning Cal,that is an interesting looking coupling you have there, I may try one on my next project If I can get hold of one.....
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))
Nick, I'm sure they will ship over to you. In the US they have lightning fast shipping and the costs are reasonable too. Just use the link in the previous post and look around. They have over 400K products and I have used many in my hobby. For instance, I bought the wrenches I needed to build the 8M engine and the lagging and high temp adhesive for my boiler. If they don't ship overseas, I will. Just tell me what you want and I'll fix you up! :-))
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Make sure that when fitting this type of coupling, that the shaft protrudes no further than the end of the metal furrel that it's clamped in. In photo 2 & 3 Of reply #123, the RH shaft should be level with the tapered end and not poking through it.
Regards Ian.
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:-))H all I have a friend that has one of these engines been running now for approx 6 months no problems very impressive performance considering he uses the small pm research boiler kit, by the way has anyone experience building a yarrow boiler as I would like to build one and wondered about holding all the pipes together before soldering and any other tips would be most helpful
Cheers
John
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:-))H all I have a friend that has one of these engines been running now for approx 6 months no problems very impressive performance considering he uses the small pm research boiler kit, by the way has anyone experience building a yarrow boiler as I would like to build one and wondered about holding all the pipes together before soldering and any other tips would be most helpful
Cheers
John
There was a serialized build of a yarrow boiler in Model Engineer magazine about 3 or 4 years ago, have a look at their website and you should find what you are looking for.
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))
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Make sure that when fitting this type of coupling, that the shaft protrudes no further than the end of the metal furrel that it's clamped in. In photo 2 & 3 Of reply #123, the RH shaft should be level with the tapered end and not poking through it.
Regards Ian.
Thanks for the good advice Ian. I would have thought you could sneak a little of the shaft into the coupling, but I suppose that may compromise the action of the coupling. I still plan to use the two Meccano wheel setup Nick used but this one arrived first so I thought I would stick it in the boat and let you all see it. It appears quite robust, I doubt it would ever break or wear out.
On a side note (hijacking my own thread here), can someone tell me how to operate a lubricator? I understand how they work, condensing steam displacing the oil and all, I just need an explanation of when/how often to fill it and how to set the knobs on the thing. How much is too much? How long should one filling last? What is the knob with the black rubber ring around it for? Mine doesn't want to move, should it?
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Cal....I have seen these engines in a maroon color and a dark green & they look fine, however it is hard to beat gloss black & gold hightlights as you have displayed :-)) ..... especially if you combine the same scheme for your boiler, gas tank & de-oiler etc ....Derek
It does look pretty good, even if I say so myself! The boiler ends were painted with simple hi temp paint in gloss black. The engine however is a different story. That was a bit of an experiment. I had some leftover POR-15 which is a powreful rust treatment primarily used in auto restoration where existing rust needs to be arrested and covered. I had used it on the air cleaner of my 67 Benz 250S (which is now gone {:-{). It withstands very high temperatures and dries to a very hard very glossy finish. It is a three step process to apply. First the item must be degreased, then etched with a solution supplied with the paint then painted all at once as it dries relatively quickly. I expect this finish to never fade, although they recommend a clear coat if it is to spend a lot of time in direct sunlight. If anyone is interseted you can google POR-15 or I can send you a link.
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Hi Cal, fill the lubricator at the start of a run, when you top up gas, boiler etc, drain the condensate from the lubricator at the same time either with the drain cock at the bottom or with a syringe through the top where you fill it if it is awkward to gain access to the drain. 1 1/2 turns in the needle valve works fine for me ( the screw with the black rubber ring round it, and yes, it should move) Knowing when to fill the lubricator will become clear when you start to run the engine , just keep an eye on the oil level until you know how long it lasts. I usually get about 3 x 1/2 hour runs from one filling. Gas, water and oil consumption will become apparent once you get used to running the engine.
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))
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Hi Cal, to connect your boiler stop valve to the T on the engine, you will need an adapter, from PMR to suit the thread in the T on one side and 1/4 x 40 on the other, ( Ask PMR, that's where I got mine from), 2 x 1/4 x 40 pipe nuts and 2 x 5/32 pipe ferrules. follow the links for examples of what you are looking for.
http://www.steamfittings.co.uk/asp/d-no.asp?ProductID=99&Process=
http://www.steamfittings.co.uk/asp/d-no.asp?ProductID=101&Process=1
Bend your copper pipe to suit and slip a nut over each end ( make sure they are the right way round ) then silver solder a ferrule on to each end of the pipe and you are done. The chap at PMR knows Maccsteam boilers, so he will probably have everything you need, it's worth a phone call. It is a bit tricky trying to explain as your American fittings are slightly different to ours. I will take some pictures tomorrow to make things a bit clearer.
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))
Nick,
I think I'll order the parts I need from the gentleman at Steamfittings, he seems to have what I need. But won't I still need a die to thread my pipes so I can utilize the T's and elbows I have? the ones I have are from PMR and apparently threaded 3/16-40 (correct?). So won't I need a die to thread 3/16-40? I'm so confused :embarrassed:
Cal
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Hi Cal, PMR sell 3/16 brass pipe in varying lengths from about !/2 inch up to about 6 inches in length, threaded both ends to suit his fittings, I have just got some from hid UK distributor. I usually bend copper pipe to suit my installation and solder the appropriate fittings on the end. Copper pipe is best silver soldered rather than threaded. PMR also sell a 3/16 x 40 MTP die but it seems quite expensive. I will post some photos later on this eve.
Regards,
Nick :-)) :-)) :-))
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I've started putting sanding sealer on parts of the cabin. I had the bright idea ( :D) of painting on the sealer while the parts are still in the sheets. Anyone have any thoughts on this? I thought it would make it easier and protect the edges and corners at the same time. I'm using SIG sanding sealer and I have to thin it A LOT to get it thin enough to do what I expect. Do you all use a tack rag or how do you remove the sanding dust before you put on the next coat of sealer? Or do you just wipe it down and go? For the cabin parts, do you seal both sides, interior and exterior? I'm tempted to just seal the exterior parts as most of the interior won't be seen. I plan on painting most of the cabin, not leaving it natural.
Nick, I found a tap and die set on Ebay for $21 shipped. Now I have my 3/16-40 (on the way at least) :-)). Now to just order those parts from PMR...
Just out of curiosity, approximately how many RPM's will my 8M be running to produce scale speed? I forget the exact number but I have a very high pitch steam prop from PropShop. I'm gonna take a wild guess and say no more than 150.... :embarrassed:
Thanks to all as usual!
Respectfully,
Cal
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Hi Cal,The threads on your boiler are 1/4 x 40 tpi These are ME (Model Engineer) threads. The pipe work threads on your PMR engine are in MPT ( Modelers Pipe Thread ) they are the same as the UK ME threads but are slightly tapered so your PMR fittings will have this thread. They do sell adapters, so assuming you have the same basic setup as my PMR engine, you will need an adapter to connect 1/4 x 40 ME to 3/16 MPT and some 1/4 x 40 ME nuts and nipples for 5/32 pipe. If you have trouble getting 1/4 x 40 ME pipe fittings, I have included a link to the chap I get mine from. Here.s a photo of the way my engine is set up.
Give me a shout if you have any problems and I will do my best to advise,
Regards,
Nick :-)) :-)) :-))
http://www.steamfittings.co.uk/asp/index.asp
(http://s18.postimage.org/5pemuiait/PM_Research_V_Twin.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/5pemuiait/)
Nick,
What thread is the mounting lugs on the bottom of the boiler and gas tank?
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Hello Cal, good idea sealing the parts whilst still in the sheets, try not to get any sealer/paint where you will be applying glue as you will not get a good strong join otherwise. A set of taps and dies are a good buy, and they will last you a lifetime if taken care of. I am not sure of the RPM, I have never actually measured it, I think there is a calculation that can be done but that is one for the mathematicians amongst us.Bit of a sad day today, my old dog, Monty had to be put to sleep, he was 15 and had cancer, the old "xxxxx" soldiered on for a few months but I couldn't let him go on.
Anyway, the boat will soon be done and I am awaiting the finished job with baited breath. Winter is nearly upon us here in the UK and I will soon be starting my new project, an African Queen with a TRV 1 to power it, it will keep me busy 'till the spring.
Best wishes,
Nick.
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Hi cal, the mounting screws should be 4ba, if you have any trouble getting them in the US, I have loads and I will send you some, let me know.
Regards,
Nick.
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Hi cal, the mounting screws should be 4ba, if you have any trouble getting them in the US, I have loads and I will send you some, let me know.
Regards,
Nick.
Thanks for the offer Nick, but I found some on Ebay. Seems I can find anything on Ebay!
I have started nailing the the brass on the rudder. I drilled a pilot hole first but some of my nails meet the ones on the other side so I'm having to make some adjustments. I cut a couple shorter then painted them with poly to hold them in. I figure I'll do one side at a time.
Good to hear about the African Queen, we always need something to keep us busy!
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Hi Cal, I cut all the nails for the rudder to about 1/8" If you do it into a plastic bag they won't fly all over the place, just put the nail in the cutters, and do the actual cut inside the plastic bag. You will end up with a bag of short nails of just the right size.
Regards,
Nick.
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Hello Cal, good idea sealing the parts whilst still in the sheets, try not to get any sealer/paint where you will be applying glue as you will not get a good strong join otherwise. A set of taps and dies are a good buy, and they will last you a lifetime if taken care of. I am not sure of the RPM, I have never actually measured it, I think there is a calculation that can be done but that is one for the mathematicians amongst us.Bit of a sad day today, my old dog, Monty had to be put to sleep, he was 15 and had cancer, the old "xxxxx" soldiered on for a few months but I couldn't let him go on.
Anyway, the boat will soon be done and I am awaiting the finished job with baited breath. Winter is nearly upon us here in the UK and I will soon be starting my new project, an African Queen with a TRV 1 to power it, it will keep me busy 'till the spring.
Best wishes,
Nick.
Hi Nick,
Sorry to hear about your dog, it's sad when you have to make a decision to have an old friend put down, I have never had to do it but lost a West Highland terrier to a car accident a number of years ago and it was like a death in the family, just keep busy.
George.
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My rudder so far... I've only installed two of the three brass straps. I couldn't find the material that came with the kit (If you saw my work area you'd know why) so I had to buy some strip brass at the LHS. It has taken me A LOT longer to do this than I expected. First strap (bottom one) probably took over an hour in total, the second one less than 30 minutes. Eventually all these bits and pieces will come together and I'll have a boat!
(http://s7.postimage.org/3q22ml9x3/SAM_2970.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/3q22ml9x3/)
(http://s7.postimage.org/s7u6ahchj/SAM_2971.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/s7u6ahchj/)
(http://s7.postimage.org/7oza5eyk7/SAM_2973.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/7oza5eyk7/)
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Hi Cal, looking good. Your workspace cannot be any worse than mine..... %) %) %)
(http://s19.postimage.org/t0tyzvxfz/Work_space.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/t0tyzvxfz/)
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You're right! That is pretty "busy". Mine at the moment is one half of the kitchen table!
(http://s16.postimage.org/dfjkukh75/SAM_2974.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/dfjkukh75/)
Oh, don't ask why I have .22 cal. pellets and a lantern on the table!
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Rabbiting?
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Nick, I have a question(s) about your 8M and the adjustment thereof. I built mine from a kit, did you? The reason I'm asking is I can't seem to get mine to run on air from my airbrush compressor. Actually I've never tried to run it on anything before. I wanted to test it because mine seems quite stiff and I was wondering if I have the adjustments set too tight. The 'adjustments' I'm referring to are the two sets of nuts on each cylinder. One holds the head against the upright thing (where the steam comes from) and the other appears to adjust the angle of this same part. Mine is so stiff that it takes some effort to turn it over by hand. I would expect it being new to be somewhat stiff but I think this is excessive. Can you turn yours over by turning the crankshaft from the front with your bare fingers? I cannot. I fear I have it binding somewhere. I have adjusted it so the connecting rods don't appear to bind, either on one another or the flywheel. I have oil in it. Where else should I look? Or is it possible I'm not applying enough pressure with the compressor? Should I hook it up to the boiler from the Alexandra? It is no where near as free as the Krick twin on the Alexandra. I can turn it via the flywheel, but it is stiff. Where do I go from here? I will take it apart and test it at each step to see if I can locate where the problem is. Your input, and anyone else's, is greatly valued and appreciated.
Cal
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Update. I took it part way apart, I took both head/piston/conrod assemblies off. Both conrods/pistons move freely within their respective heads. The crankshaft spins freely. I reassembled it loosely and now when air is applied it tries to turn over and occasionally will do one revolution with a nudge. I am not sure how tight (or loose) the nuts holding the heads to the uprights should be. I also am not sure how tight the screws that hold the throttle plate on should be either nor do I know how many PSI this little compressor produces. I'll keep fiddling and reporting any progress. Input is welcome!
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Good evening Cal,I cant turn my engine over from the shaft end by hand either, However, it runs well on steam at about 30 PSI. The nuts at the top of the standards are for for making fine adjustments to the alignment of the cylinder in relation to the crank pin, ie. the bore in the big end should be at 90 degrees to the crank pin. The nuts that hold the cylinder on to the standard on which the cylinder pivots needs to be tight enough to prevent leakage of steam but not so tight as to cause excessive binding. Again, the screws that hold the regulator securing plate in position needs to be tight enough to prevent steam leakage, but still easy enough for the servo to operate. It will loosten up after a couple of hours running, just make sure you keep the lubricator full of oil if running on steam and keep the bearings well oiled while it is running in.One last thing, make suer the piston assemblies are not touching the cylinder heads or the bottom cylinder covers. The way to adjust this id detailed in the instructions. Make all your adjustments a tiny bit at a time untill it feels right. Although it is not recommend, I ran mine on steam from the start as I don't have a compressor, and I didn't have any problems, just take it easy, and try to avoid full throttle, take the speed up in gentle steps and it will soon be ticking over nicely.
Regards,
Nick. ;) ;) ;)
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Well, I've gotten it going! As you suggested I started with everything quite loose and tightened a little at a time until it now will run at about 150rpm (I guess, it's a little too fast for me to count). I put a couple drops of steam oil in the hole where the steam line connects for added safety. I have no idea what psi the little compressor puts out but the motor will only run when near full throttle. I have no idea what rpm these run at with 40 psi steam, do you? What I'm asking is, is 150 rpm its top speed? I guess when I have time I should steam up the Alexandra and connect the 8M and see what happens. If I can I'll make a video of it running in my hand. But that will have to wait for tomorrow, 4am comes early and I've things to do before I retire for the day. Thank you for the help as always Nick.
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Hi Cal, It will loosen up with running, just keep the bearings well lubricated, there is one oil hole on top of each standard, and one in the base casting, just by the regulator.
Off to the pit myself now,
Bye for now,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))
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My Meccano parts arrived today. Very quick considering the distance. Now I can get back to the installation of the mechanics. I'll put together what I can and post some pics for everyone's comment.
This board has been a tremendous help with this boat, couldn't have done it without you all, and a special thanks to pettyofficernick for his Victoria specific help. :-)) :-)) :-))
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Below are some pics of what I started with and what I have come up with. I used the meccano wheel on the engine and the collar and pin on the propshaft. Very similar to Nick's setup. However I haven't included the second wheel. This is very similar to what is on the Alexandra also. This setup should produce little if any vibration and be able to handle the small angle with ease. What do you think?
(http://s11.postimage.org/ayllm477z/SAM_2977.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ayllm477z/)
(http://s11.postimage.org/p6fvoi9an/SAM_2978.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/p6fvoi9an/)
(http://s11.postimage.org/7ufj32ftb/SAM_2979.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/7ufj32ftb/)
(http://s11.postimage.org/hg93jd6z3/SAM_2980.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/hg93jd6z3/)
(http://s11.postimage.org/g2hgo27pr/SAM_2981.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/g2hgo27pr/)
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Hi Cal, you have it in one there, good form, you are correct in saying vibration will be reduced, it is in fact negligible and small angles are dealt with without a fuss, plus there is the saving of space.
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))
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This is what it will look like in the boat. An example of crappy metalwork but you get the idea. This is just the template anyway, the final plate will be brass. I won't be using black tubing as a cushion/buffer on the posts either. I'll have to think of something more authentic, maybe leather of some sort. It's coming together slowly.... ok2
(http://s15.postimage.org/aj7j3pm8n/SAM_2992.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/aj7j3pm8n/)
(http://s15.postimage.org/8soi284pj/SAM_2993.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/8soi284pj/)
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Just the ticket. Are you going to box in under the cutout for the coupling to stop oil and water going down inside the hull?
Regards
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))
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Cal, I have assebled a couple of the PM engines and one was loose and the other a little tight but I think it was just manufacturing tolerances. I did find that playing around with the dished washers and the adjustments on the bolts holding the cylinders to the standards helped a little but the thing that loosened the tight engine up well was just running it with the end of the crank driven by a battery drill. That way you are not having to coax it to run on steam or air and you will find it will improve quickly. Be sparing with the oil, a little is all you need as you do want it to wear the moving parts in. Cheers, Ian.
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And don't try to "run it in" with a drill at 10000 RPM.
Regards Ian.
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Thanks Ian, that's a good idea. I have a drill I can use for that purpose. I suppose around 80-100 rpms to begin? Then increase as it frees up?
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I'd use the lowest rpm possible and lots of oil inside the cylinders and on all moving parts.
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Also, if you have reverse on your drill, run it in both directions so everything beds down nicely, nice and slow with plenty of oil...... :-)) :-)) :-))
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Sounds like good advice. What kind of oil should I use? Steam oil or an automotive synthetic? Or something else?
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A light machine oil should do, I use Three in One as it is easy to get in small tins, sewing machine oil is also ok.
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))
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Just the ticket. Are you going to box in under the cutout for the coupling to stop oil and water going down inside the hull?
Regards
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))
Yes, that is something I was thinking about. Not sure how to do it though. Should I attach a 'box' to the bottom of the mounting plate so it comes off with everything else or should I just build it into the hull with access through the opening in the floor beneath the engine???? Lots of questions.... I'm sure I'll get some answers here though!
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Topic namer changed :-)
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I woukd build the box, or you could call it the sump, on to the bottom of the baseplate, that way it will be easier to empty with a syringe. That way will minimise the chances of oily water getting where it shouldn't......
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That sounds like a good idea to me. Should I make it out of well treated wood or should I try to fab something out of metal? The metal would be very difficult with the tools I have. A wooden box attached to the bottom of the base plate would be relatively easy. Along these same lines, how did you seal your engine room floor? How do you keep water from getting under it?
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Hijacking my own thread a bit but its all part of the Victoria's build. Below I have a proposed oil condenser. I am starting with a small alcohol torch and adding the pipes as shown. The steam/oil/water will enter from the left via a 5/16 (probably) copper or brass pipe. The pipe will enter at an angle to promote circulation of the exhaust mixture within the condenser. Both the spout and nozzle unscrew. It is my intent to drill the nozzle and install the pipe that will go to the chimney. A union will be installed in the "in" line to facilitate removal when necessary. I should be able to remove for emptying by unscrewing the union then unscrewing the spout from the condenser. This could be done without disturbing the 'in' or 'out' pipes. I have looked at other condensers and they had a third pipe for emptying, but mine can be easily removed from the boat so I saw no need for the third pipe. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Will this scheme work? Any and all input is appreciated.
(http://s15.postimage.org/6u0qw15uv/SAM_2994.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/6u0qw15uv/)
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I see no reason why it would not work.
Regards,
Gerald.
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Thank you Gerald, I will commence construction immediately! I just needed someone who knows what they are doing to verify my plan.
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Hi Cal, looks like a plan, go for it........
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Another question... (will I ever run out?). With the setup I have, shown in the pic below, is covering the front hatches in the engine room floor going to be a problem? They are there for me to add ballast to the front portion of the boat are they not?
(http://s12.postimage.org/ayz3u4g4p/SAM_2995.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ayz3u4g4p/)
It appears to my untrained eye that I will have a need for ballast in the back (aft?) end of the boat not the bow. I think this is primarily caused by the horizontal boiler in a boat designed for a vertical one.
(http://s8.postimage.org/f9nxdomg1/SAM_2997.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/f9nxdomg1/)
Please ignore the adult beverage in the cooler in the lower right. I wouldn't want to be accused of BWI (Building While Intoxicated)!
What say you all?
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Hi muleears. It also appears to the "trained eye" that the launch is bow heavy and as such, when you put it in the water, she may trim by the head. This is not necessarily the end of the world. The hull looks to me to be full bodied in other words she may float above her marks. This is how I would go about getting it all right. First, stick some masking tape on the hull over the positions of the design waterline at stem, midships (both sides) and transom. Second, mark the waterline on the tapes. Third, fill the boiler to half way up the sight glass and fill the gas tank. Fourth, put the receiver, battery, servos and anything else that is to go on board in roughly their fore and aft positions. If you haven't built a bit yet then put the makings in roughly the same position that the finished item's center of gravity would be. Next fill the bath up nearly to the top so that when you put the boat in the tub the water doesn't spill over but you can get your eyes right down to see the actual waterline positions. When everything settles down, ignoring the trim for the moment, look at the midships draughts. If the boat is flying high you need to add weight, low down, amidships until she sits on her marks. If she has a list move the weight athwartships towards the high side until she's on her marks and upright. Let all settle again and then look at the fore and aft marks. One waterline mark will be underwater and the other will be above the water. Finally, move the weight parallel to the keel towards the end of the boat that is high. Move it bit by bit until the waterlines are all level with the water. Now find a way to keep the weight in position.
If, (and I don't think they will be), when you first put the boat in the bath the midship marks are submerged, then you have a problem. In this situation you have to, either remove weight, or put up with the overloading like I did with my S. L. Wear. You can exchange the chimney for an aluminium one but not much else can be done. To get the trim right you have to move a weight already on board towards the high end as before. A small weight moved a long way has the same effect as a large weight moved a short way. As I see it you can't move the engine aft or the boiler but what's staring me in the face is the gas tank. Could you consider moving it to the cabin or to near the afterdeck? I'm assuming that the Rx battery will be aft somewhere.
I hope this helps.
Jerry.
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I forgot to say how good she looks already!
Jerry.
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Jerry,
That is a great deal of very good information, thank you for the time you invested. In the photo you see with everything in the boat, none of it has been permanently fixed its all just sitting there. I realize now is the time to get the balance squared away and your post tells me how. I will investigate relocating the gas tank. Yes, the receiver, battery and rudder servo are mounted beneath the hatch on the stern deck. At the moment I can't do the float test as the prop shaft has not been permanently installed and I would have quite a leak! I still must build the cabin and seating area as they will add some weight to the stern. This has been a most helpful post and I will utilize this method shortly when I am a little further along.
Thanks for the compliment! :-))
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Hi Cal, good advice from Jerry there, As you have basically the same plant as me you will e fine with a few ounces in the stern, low down.
Looking good,
Regards,
Nick
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Cal....you were asking a few days back on the need for a sump or what ever
Many oscillators do have the tendency to spit fluid from the cylinder valve faces across to the hull....I have seen on a number of French sites where this has occurred
Below are two examples......one as a form of protection & one as a possible consequence
Some simple steps could be taken after commissioning if you do find a problem......Derek
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Thank you Derek, I'm sure I will need something to take care of the 'cast off' from a twin oscillator. It will be a few months before commissioning I suspect.... Winter is approaching, so I'll guess April to May.
Following up on Jerry's comments, below are some pics of the only alternative location I can find for the gas tank. I don't see where it could be put in the cabin, so that only leaves the bow (where I had it) or the location in the pics. There is very little clearance around the tank, it is only about 5mm from the engine. The other side will be occupied by the throttle servo (inside a crate of some sort). Will the placement of the gas tank in the bow cause a serious balance problem? I guess the only way to tell is to put it in the water. If anyone has any other suggestions, I'm listening!
(http://s14.postimage.org/om26qnzot/SAM_2998.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/om26qnzot/)
(http://s14.postimage.org/pcuwwg225/SAM_2999.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/pcuwwg225/)
(http://s14.postimage.org/691lg3p7x/SAM_3000.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/691lg3p7x/)
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I forgot to mention, that is also the location I was going to put my condenser/oil separator. So I'm in a fix...
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My first plumbing attempt!
(http://s12.postimage.org/az42g9cx5/SAM_3002.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/az42g9cx5/)
Between the boiler and the engine. I cut and threaded each brass section, the one to attach to the engine needs to be soldered and I need the proper fitting to attach to the boiler, but I guess its a start. Anyone see any problems with it? Provided it doesn't leak of course %). I guess, generally in plumbing I have a choice between bending brass or copper to meet the needs or I can do as I have done and only employ straight brass and utilize fittings to make my turns. Suggestions and comments welcome!
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that steam line looks very neat and professional :) makes a huge difference, really stands out!
When/If I get round to building one I think I will use the same technique
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Thanks for the compliment, but you haven't seen my soldering skills..... :D
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I forgot to mention, that is also the location I was going to put my condenser/oil separator. So I'm in a fix...
Hi Cal, I saw a Victoria with the gas tank mounted along side the engine, the condenser was mounted on the opposite side. The crate for your servo could go along side your condenser. In saying that, my gas tank is in front of the boiler, and I have had no problems with the trim.
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-))
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I'm hoping, I can put the condenser on one side of the engine and the crate/servo on the other and the gas tank in front.
I have been pussyfooting around too much lately, too afraid I'll make a mistake, this weekend I am going to do some serious assembly, not just little doo dads like I have been recently. I may make some mistakes but significant progress will be made by Monday morning! :-))
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Good form Cal, that's the spirit! I will be driving home from Weymouth tomorrow, some 300 miles and the weather looks bad, so it looks like being a long drive. Get stuck in mate, and she will soon be on the water.
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))
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Cal....just thinking..... :o..if you wanted to minimise your soldering.......you could simply use Loctite Type 567 liquid Teflon paste for all of those screwed joints
The thread form takes all of the mechanical loading.........the lightest smear of the 567 provides the steam tight seal up to 205 degrees C
The alternative to this is a small roll of Teflon tape from any hardware store for about $1.00 ....................Derek
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I either use PTFE tape or 'Boss White" a pipe jointing compound used by plumbers.....
Regards,
Nick.
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I have some Loctite 565 "PTFE thread sealant for metal fittings" I read somewhere this was the stuff to use. Comments?
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Just had a look at the spec sheet for this stuff, looks good.
http://www.ibtinc.com/artman/uploads/1/loctite565tech.pdf
Regards,
Nick :-)) :-)) :-))
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(http://s12.postimage.org/az42g9cx5/SAM_3002.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/az42g9cx5/)
In the above pic, can someone tell me what I need to connect the pipe from the engine to the boiler? It is 5/32 pipe and fittings, Nick tells me the boiler is 1/4 x 40. How do I connect the two??? I am very ignorant when it comes to plumbing fittings so please be specific! Include a link if you can! Do I need a nipple adapter, a tube union, a bushing of some sort? In this case I realize I'll need another inch of 5/32 pipe, but what connects that to the valve on the boiler? Thanks in advance.
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Hi Cal, there are a couple of ways of going about this, the easiest way is to contact PMR, as they do an adapter to connect their pipe thread to Maccsteam boilers, I got one with my V twin for the same purpose. You may also need to make up a small length of copper or brass pipe with a 1/4 x 40 nut and nipple on each end.. alternately, use a femail type fitting directly to the stop valve, you would have to assemble the pipework from the boiler to the engine though.Here's a couple of photos to show you what I mean...
(http://s19.postimage.org/pq1h5mz2n/Adaptor.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/pq1h5mz2n/)
(http://s19.postimage.org/qtllhljpr/Fitting.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)
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I've finally got the mechanics mounted on the template. Worked out well. Had to shorten the bolts for the gas tank and boiler (burned my finger doing it too <:(). There seems to be enough clearance between each. Some concerns I have though are: the aluminum plate is not as stiff as I would like, I may double it using the brass as the top plate. The valve for the gas tank faces away from the burner, or it is on the other end, not sure how I want to deal with that. I think now I need to figure a way to attach this plate to the boat. I'm thinking of adding some solid blocks to the hull that I can put some countersunk brass nuts into (not sure what they're called (last pic)). Then I can attach and remove from the top at will.
(http://s8.postimage.org/5q4q7tk3l/SAM_3010.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/5q4q7tk3l/)
(http://s8.postimage.org/knd78txc1/SAM_3011.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/knd78txc1/)
(http://s8.postimage.org/fpzmnpvcx/SAM_3012.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/fpzmnpvcx/)
(http://s8.postimage.org/66pxu97up/SAM_3013.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/66pxu97up/)
These things screw into the wood then you can screw a bolt in to them.
(http://s8.postimage.org/nla62j4zl/SAM_3014.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/nla62j4zl/)
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Good evening Cal, you could always turn the gas tank around the other way, so the outlet faces inwards. If I remember rightly, there is some M3 captive nuts supplird with the kit, and the bolts to go with them, they are about 10mm in diameter with 4 little spikes on them, they go under the deck, or have you fixed the deck down now? Failing that, some 1/2 inch round headed brass wood screws would be fine. I must say it is all coming together nicely and very neat.
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))
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I hadn't realized there might be something in the kit to use, I'll take a look. I haven't fixed the deck down yet so I still have time. I have bought some of the nuts with the spikes on them too. I think my next problem will be the sump beneath the engine. I'm not sure how to handle that yet.
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Do you have a printers nearby, if so, you could try and scrounge a bit of old litho plate it is very thin aluminium sheet easy to bend,you could make a little sump from that and epoxy it in place, I have used this method in the past with success.....
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Cal....your hobby shop will have the Du-Bro "threaded inserts" as below......however not to be confused with a "blind nut" {-)...Derek
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Thanks Derek, I'll be sure not to confuse them! Actually I already have some of both. I think the threaded inserts (thanks for reminding me what they are) I have are too small. Fortunately my local hardware store carries them also.
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Progress on the mounting of the mechanics. Below are some pics of how I have attached the plate to the engine room floor. I used blind nuts and epoxied them when I got them in the right place. I also had to counter sink (in this case just drill a hole) where the mounting bolts for the boiler and gas tank meet the engine room floor. I still haven't figured out a sump yet. I need to do that next so I can fix the floor in place. I know the mounting bolt locations aren't symmetrical but I had to put them where I could get to them. Comments are welcome. First a few shots of the floor and engine/boiler/gas tank out of the boat then a couple of it in.
(http://s7.postimage.org/xglpjdzc7/SAM_3015.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/xglpjdzc7/)
(http://s7.postimage.org/g4lcxy5uv/SAM_3017.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/g4lcxy5uv/)
(http://s7.postimage.org/8d4mze1pj/SAM_3018.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/8d4mze1pj/)
(http://s7.postimage.org/93xd5642v/SAM_3019.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/93xd5642v/)
(http://s7.postimage.org/etdlpha93/SAM_3021.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/etdlpha93/)
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Hi Cal, looking at your photos, I think what I would do would be to frame around the edge of the cut out in the engine room floor with something like 1/4 x 1/2 timber and cover with 1/8 ply. sizes are not critical, use whatever you have and give it plenty of primer and paint to seal it all up against oil and water. I think that is probably the easiest way.
Regards,
Nick.
(http://s19.postimage.org/5fm8qwlcf/Victoria_sump.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/5fm8qwlcf/)
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That is pretty much what I have done, Nick. I used the plywood scraps that the stand came out of and built a frame around the opening. I had to go around the blind nuts also. I glued 1/8" ply across the opening to close it. I then painted the inside black and commenced to soak it with poly. That is about where I am now, waiting for poly to dry so I can put more on. Next I'll epoxy it to the underside of the floor, then I'll poly the outside as well. I will have to cut away some of the supports under the floor to make it fit. I'll only remove as much as necessary and try to attach the sump to it to make it stronger. I'd post some pics but it's really ugly :o. I'll post some from the top when I get it finished. Thanks for the help Nick. I feel I've made some progress this weekend, plus I'm off tomorrow and it is supposed to continue raining so no work outside, I'll have to work on the boat!
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Good form :-)) :-)) :-))
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Well, here it is anyway, ugly as it is. I figure once I have the floor attached no one will be able to see it! :D. I sealed the laser cuts with glue before I applied the poly. I am about to epoxy this to the deck so if anyone sees a reason I shouldn't please speak now! I know I should have used flat black paint, that would have been preferable but I used what I had one hand. The nearest flat black is about 20 miles round trip away. The flash makes it look worse anyway, to the casual observer I think it will be fine. Besides if I don't like it I can paint it again later. The only concern I have is clearance for the post on the propshaft. I'm confident it will clear the floor of the sump, it is a little too long anyway! Here's the pics:
(http://s7.postimage.org/ocohj6e3r/SAM_3023.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ocohj6e3r/)
(http://s7.postimage.org/58v62u19j/SAM_3024.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/58v62u19j/)
(http://s7.postimage.org/xzrzsw73b/SAM_3025.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/xzrzsw73b/)
(http://s7.postimage.org/9kod5kxk7/SAM_3026.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/9kod5kxk7/)
Remember! As soon as I get another coat of poly dry this thing is going on, so please, if you have a concern let me know now! O0
Once I get this fitted I believe I'll be ready to attach the floor. Am I forgetting anything? Should the vertical (fake) ribs on the inside of the hull be done first?
Thanks to all
Cal
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Hi Cal, that looks fine, go for it. Fit the ribs after you have fitted the floor in place, otherwise you might find yourself having to cut notches in the floor to clear the ribs.......
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Boy, am I glad you said go ahead. I finished about 10 minutes ago. It took some more trimming and grinding and cutting, but I think I got there. I have not yet glued down the floor, I wanted to make sure the engine fit and operated with sufficient clearance. Good thing I did the pin I was worried about (on the propshaft) did not clear the bottom of the sump. So I shortened it about 3mm, it was plenty long anyway. I also shortened the propshaft. Now a couple questions: I need a jam nut to hold the prop on, correct? If so I need to leave room between the stuffing box and the prop. Second Q, is it OK for the collar the pin is in to ride against the stuffing box? It appears either the jam nut at the prop or the collar will have to. The pic below shows the position of the collar in relation to the stuffing box. Thanks for the input.
(http://s7.postimage.org/pyo0mzq3r/SAM_3027.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/pyo0mzq3r/)
By the way, what do you lubricate the propshaft with? It's my plan to inject some grease before running. Maybe waterproof automotive wheel bearing grease?
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You will need a locknut on the propshaft or you will loose the propeller, the inboard end will be ok, I don't have a washer there and I runs fine. If you fill the shaft with greasen do not use a heavy one, I filled mine with lithium grease, a good alternative is silicone grease, the sort that plumbers use....
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Here's the response to the question I posed to PMR about connecting my boiler to their engine:
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Calvin,
You would need to convert your 10-40 thread to a 3/16-40 or ¼-40 thread. Then you could use our TUM35 or TUM45 to make the connection. Here is the link to these, http://www.pmresearchinc.com/store/home.php?cat=150. Have a great day.
Jim
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
This is somewhat helpful but it still doesn't tell me ALL the parts I need. I still need something to convert the 10-40 male thread on the boiler to the male thread tube unions they have suggested... I'll try the site Nick suggested next. The Steamfittings site.
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Hi Cal, the thread on the Maccsteam boiler valve is 1/4 x 40 on the inlet and the outlet, I have not heard of a 10 x 40 thread, a 3/8 x 32 bush is fitted into the boiler, an adapter, 3/8 x 32 to 1/4 x 40 is then used to allow the use of the 1/4 x 40 steam stop valve. ( I am assuming your 3.5" horizontal boiler is identical to mine.) Here is a link to Maccsteam's fittings page and one to the 3.5" boiler and you will see what I mean.
http://www.maccsteam.com/Fittings/Fittings.html
http://www.maccsteam.com/Horizontal_Marine_boilers/3_and_half_inch/3_and_half_inch.html
I got a turret with mine, it allows a little more scope to arrange the position of the stop valve. So, you need a 1/4 x 40 connection to the steam valve.
Hope this is helpfull,
Regards,
Nick.
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I have just had another look at your plumbing done so far, and here,s what I would do..... First off, screw a straight 1/ x 40 coupling on the steam valve, this will enable you to work back from the boiler with your threaded pipe, finally arriving at the engine, you can then connect with the fittings you already have on the engine connection, you may have to alter the length of the pipe at this end before soldering the nut and nipple in place. Use one of these straight couplings at the boiler valve end...
http://www.pmresearchinc.com/store/product.php?productid=3659&cat=88&page=1
Best wishes,
Nick.
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Hi Cal, the thread on the Maccsteam boiler valve is 1/4 x 40 on the inlet and the outlet, I have not heard of a 10 x 40 thread, a 3/8 x 32 bush is fitted into the boiler, an adapter, 3/8 x 32 to 1/4 x 40 is then used to allow the use of the 1/4 x 40 steam stop valve. ( I am assuming your 3.5" horizontal boiler is identical to mine.) Here is a link to Maccsteam's fittings page and one to the 3.5" boiler and you will see what I mean.
http://www.maccsteam.com/Fittings/Fittings.html
http://www.maccsteam.com/Horizontal_Marine_boilers/3_and_half_inch/3_and_half_inch.html
I got a turret with mine, it allows a little more scope to arrange the position of the stop valve. So, you need a 1/4 x 40 connection to the steam valve.
Hope this is helpfull,
Regards,
Nick.
Nick,
There is no doubt in my mind that a 10-40 thread is purely a figment of my feeble imagination... Or the result of my poor, poor memory. That's probably what I asked PMR, no wonder they didn't have a fitting for it!
Yes, with your assistance I think I can figure it out now. I have several feet of brass and copper tubing so I can make a few mistakes along the way!
On a different note, I laid the floor in the engine room this afternoon. It is now permanently affixed to the boat. I then installed the mechanics and plugged it in to my air brush compressor. It worked! The propeller actually spun! It has some extraneous noises that I have to chase down but it worked! :-)) After chasing down this bumping noise (I think I know what it is) I'll affix the stuffing box, then maybe the rudder. I have yet to really start on the cabin. I'm hoping that is relatively straightforward. Thanks again for all the help. These pipe sizes just baffle me %%
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Well, I know I have been absent for a while, sometimes life intrudes on what I want to do! I did manage to get the brass mounting plate cut and drilled and I'd like to post some pics but for some reason I can't. I'll keep trying as I want some input!
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Hi Cal, Try using the attachments and other options box at the bottom of the reply page, I tried to post photos in the normal way and it did't work, but did from the attachments box.
Regards,
Nick...
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trying for a third time, had to make the pics smaller each time. These will be no where near the size we used to be able to post.
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Hi Cal, looking good mate, much neater than mine, keep up the good work :-)) :-)) :-))
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trying for a third time, had to make the pics smaller each time. These will be no where near the size we used to be able to post.
Hi Cal if you use Photobucket size doesn't matter (http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p8/DickyD_photos/Smileys/tumb.gif)
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What happened to the old way? No loading one other sites, no resizing, no problem. I guess I'll have to take DickyD's advice unless we can return to the old way. With what we do, detail in the photo's is vital to convey what we are trying to show. Don't mean to hijack my own thread, just hope we can go back to the way it was.....
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Cal, you can post questions about the new layout here.... http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=11159.765
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I have finally been able to tinker a little with the boat. I have attached my air brush compressor to the motor and I seem to have a lot of drive line noise, I was hoping you could help me identify. I will attempt to upload a video to youtube so you all may hear it. My investigation finds nothing bumping anything else, there is no binding, everything turns smoothly. I have not permanently mounted the driveshaft yet. My theory is that, since I am using the "pin and wheel" setup it is simply the inherent slack in the setup. The pin on the prop shaft gets ahead of the other and when they meet it clanks. But I would think if there was a load on the prop there would not be a chance for one to get ahead of the other. I have tested this by putting a finger (drag) on the prop hub and it makes no difference. I cannot identify exactly where the sound comes from. If I hold the propshaft, I can feel when it clanks. Moving the propshaft in or out makes little difference. Is this just a typical sound for this type of driveline? Suggestions are welcome. Youtube video is here: http://youtu.be/HQigXPSSfLM (http://youtu.be/HQigXPSSfLM)
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Looking at you film, I notice that you do not have the prop shaft nut up close to the tube. The shaft should not be able to move in and out of the tube.
Have you greased the shaft as well ? The noise is reminiscent of a mechanical clunk as it's quite a hard sound. I would disconnect the drive system and go for setting it up to revolve quietly first.
Cheers
ken
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Hi Cal, that noise is coming from the engine end of the shaft, it sounds like the coupling is hitting the metal plate beneath, check all round the disk drive and make sure it is not hitting anywhere. turn the engine over by hans , stop when you start to feel resistance and have a good look. Is the shaft secured properly?
Regards,
Nick.
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I also agree with Kenny, I did not notice the nut being loose.....
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Thanks gentlemen, I will look in to your suggestions. I have verified that the coupling isn't striking anything, I have not properly secured the shaft as I still have to shorten it (not sure yet what length). The prop nut is jammed against the prop, but not near the stuffing box. I guess I will bite the bullet and shorten the shaft about one half inch, then put it all back together (with the prop nut properly installed) and see what we get. Thank you for your prompt and insightful offerings :-))
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Hi Cal, make sure the locknut on the prop rests against the stern tube, put a washer in between if you have one, the prop needs to be locked in case it unscrews its self when going astern.....
Regards,
Nick.
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I have shortened the shaft as short as I can and still have it exit the tube. I've installed a washer, a little big but will suffice for now. I have not secured the tube and I have not lubed it either. I have some white lithium grease that I think would work, but I'm afraid to lube it before I permanently mount it as I don't want any grease on the unfinished wood or where glue may need to adhere.
I put it back together and still have pretty much the same noise. I think a solid mounting of the tube and some lube will quiet a lot of it. We shall see... :o I should also mention there is about .01" of fore and aft play in the prop shaft, just enough so there is no binding.
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Hi Cal, make sure the locknut on the prop rests against the stern tube, put a washer in between if you have one, the prop needs to be locked in case it unscrews its self when going astern.....
Regards,
Nick.
Wouldn't some Loc-Tite be prudent here?
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Another thought was to actually press down on the tube when it's running. That way, you can push and bend sideways and jiggle about to see if the noise changes. It can be done safely at lower revolutions and it's how I line up mine for the best running position.
ken
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I have been absent for the past couple of months, sometimes life intrudes and we can't do the things we want! Now with the holidays out of the way, I should be getting back to the build in a couple of weeks. Thank you all for your assistance and advice.
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Good form, and a Happy New Year to you sir..... :-)) :-)) :-))
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Welcome back Cal - I was wondering what had happened to you. I'm looking forward to some more progress on your Victoria.
Greg
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How/where to you all get/make decals for the name of your boat? My boat is a Victoria but I will be naming it something else. Does someone offer a service to make decals? Any information is greatly appreciated. I'm not at the point I need to do this but I just want to be prepared in case I have to wait for it.
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Hi Cal, do you have a place that makes vinyl signs near you, the sort you plaster over cars, you would be surprised how small they can make things, failing that BECC here in the UK do vinyl lettering you can then make your own. :-)) :-)) :-))
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Well, if you end up ordering from the UK you could do a lot worse than Barry's Model Lettering - www.modellettering.com. He will even do a special order for you if you want to go to those lengths.
Greg
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Thank you gentlemen, both very good ideas. I hadn't thought of the lettering/sign shop. I'm sure I can find someone nearby to do that. This boat has become a very special project for me and I want everything "just right".
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Hi everyone sounds like the noise of a big end bearing and in your case I think it is coming from the pin or pins connecting the prop shaft and being intermittent because there is no load on the prop %) I would suggest some silicone tube over the pins but first try with some load on the prop to see if it makes a difference
John
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Hi everyone sounds like the noise of a big end bearing and in your case I think it is coming from the pin or pins connecting the prop shaft and being intermittent because there is no load on the prop %) I would suggest some silicone tube over the pins but first try with some load on the prop to see if it makes a difference
John
John,
I have some tubing on the pins but it is air hose and kind of hard. I will exchange that for some softer silicone tubing and see how that does. I have tried putting a load on by placing a finger on the shaft and it didn't make any difference. I have a suspicion that the knock I'm hearing is the pin on the prop shaft sliding over the nut at the bottom of the pin on the engine shaft and bumping. I will try to take a pic and post but it is a very confined area and may not come out well. Maybe I'll attempt a video with our new Christmas camera.
Today may be the day I get the Victoria back on the building table and begin work again. I have a few other odds and ends to take care of but my plan is to get the tools/materials/accessories/etc. out so I can re-start work in earnest. I may take a day just to take stock of where I am. I have jumped around a bit in the building process, and probably gotten ahead of myself in some areas. Wish me luck!
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As I'm getting the boat and parts back out of storage I'm noticing many things have tarnished or dulled somewhat. >:-o How do you all keep the brass and copper pieces shiny? Is there something I can paint or coat them with? Or am I just in for never ending polishing? :o
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Good evening Cal, to protect your brightwork, you need to use a Laquer, similar to this ...
http://marinestore.co.uk/Incralac_Rylard_Brass_Lacquer_500ml.html
It should be readily available on your side of the pond at a yacht chandlers of hardware store.
Hope this helps, looking forward to more photos of your build,
Regards,
Nick....
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Good evening Cal, to protect your brightwork, you need to use a Laquer, similar to this ...
http://marinestore.co.uk/Incralac_Rylard_Brass_Lacquer_500ml.html (http://marinestore.co.uk/Incralac_Rylard_Brass_Lacquer_500ml.html)
It should be readily available on your side of the pond at a yacht chandlers of hardware store.
Hope this helps, looking forward to more photos of your build,
Regards,
Nick....
Brass lacquer... never knew there was such a thing. But now I see I can get it on Amazon. Thanks Nick!
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Also used on trumpets, trombones etc and antiques....
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Attached are a couple pics of the coupling between my engine and propshaft. It appears from the angle the pic was taken to be horribly out of alignment but trust me, they are in perfect longitudinal alignment. There is some vertical offset and of course the downward angle. The reason I'm posting this is I'm back to my old problem of the noisy drive line. I will tomorrow post a video of the engine running at various speeds. The only power supply is my air brush compressor however. Today I ran it (on air) and tried moving the prop shaft in all directions to no avail. Some were slightly better than others but none were quiet. I tried putting a load on the motor by placing my finger on the prop hub, which put a forward pressure on the prop shaft, but still no joy. I can slow the engine down to tick over and you can see that the clank appears to sound once per revolution. This would lead me to think something is striking something else. I can assure you nothing is striking anything! When operated separately the engine and prop shaft are quiet. The motor chuffs and puffs as I believe it should, the prop shaft when spun by hand does not make the clanking sound. Only when the two are joined and under power does it clank. Is the power from the engine fairly steady or is there a pronounced pulse or thrust during the cycle? I'm thinking if there is a pulse from the engine maybe the prop shaft gets pushed ahead of the crank shaft from this pulse and when the two meet again I get this clank. On the other hand I may be thinking about this way too much %% ! I'll put together a video tomorrow and hopefully you will be able to hear and see my problem. I am confident someone here has a solution O0 .
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Could you try a flexible rubber coupling as an experiment. If you are getting a "tick tick" it may be due to forces involved on the rotating pushing system.
Cheers
Ken
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I have been using a flexable alluminium coupler for a few years with no problems :-)) very inexpensive and comes in different sizes to suit your shafts on ebay http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/New-6-35mm-x-8mm-Shaft-Coupling-CNC-Stepper-Motor-Flexible-Coupler-Clutch-/121016376141?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item1c2d235b4d
it keeps things simple
Cheers
John
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Could you try a flexible rubber coupling as an experiment. If you are getting a "tick tick" it may be due to forces involved on the rotating pushing system.
Cheers
Ken
Ken you hit the nail on the head. I substituted a piece of silicone and bingo, silence. Now I just have to figure out why it clanks.....
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Pic of my silicone tubing coupling. Runs nice and quiet, too bad it won't handle the torque. I looked at the coupling John posted but I don't think I can use it for a couple reasons. As you can see from the pics the prop shaft and engine shaft almost touch. I have cut back the prop shaft length all I dare, so I don't think I have room for it. I also have some vertical offset which this coupling cannot accommodate.
Way back earlier in the thread I had a rubber coupling that would work great but it was 1.5 inches long, again I don't have the room. I suppose I could shorten the engine shaft but I am very reluctant to do that. I don't have the option of moving the engine either as this boat was designed for a vertical boiler and I am putting a horizontal in it which creates much more weight forward, hence I can't move the engine forward due to weight/balance concerns.
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Well here is the promised video! I run it on air at various speeds, you may need to turn your sound up it isn't very loud on the video, it is louder in person. At the end I flick the propshaft into the engine shaft so the pins strike each other. This seems to be what is making the sound. I think the pins striking are causing the prop shaft to vibrate within the tube and that is what makes the sound, not so much the pins hitting each other. Now, how do I stop it? Again, I know it looks like it but nothing is touching either of the pins or the wheel as they rotate.
http://youtu.be/RLST1jPLFl8 (http://youtu.be/RLST1jPLFl8)
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Hi Cal, I will be brief as I have had an operation on my hand today, so typing a bit tricky. That sounds like a drum, as if the brass tray was being struck, is the stern tube resting on the brass bedplate? Also, try binding the the driving pin on to the shaft pin, just a couple of turns of fusewire would suffice, and see if you get the same sound.
Hope this helps,
Regards,
Nick.
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Now I just have to figure out why it clanks....
I should imagine it's the piston action being duplicated by the forces of the thrust on a wheel causing acceleration and deceleration of the shaft.
This is picked up by the rubber and bouncing minutely cause a pushing end to repel the receiving mating surface. In other words tie the two ends together somehow. If you don't have room for a joining tube then how about a solid rubber block with 2 holes in it to match the arms and keep them spaced apart.
Cheers
ken
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Hi Cal, I will be brief as I have had an operation on my hand today, so typing a bit tricky. That sounds like a drum, as if the brass tray was being struck, is the stern tube resting on the brass bedplate? Also, try binding the the driving pin on to the shaft pin, just a couple of turns of fusewire would suffice, and see if you get the same sound.
Hope this helps,
Regards,
Nick.
No the stern tube isn't touching any brass anywhere. I have to be careful binding the two pins together. Remember I have a vertical offset to deal with so the pins actually have to slide along one another as they go 'round. At the top the driving pin is at the end of the driven pin away from the shaft, 180* later, the driving pin is at the end of the driven pin nearest the shaft. This is a really poor description, I can take some pics to illustrate later.
What's up with the hand? Nothing serious I hope. Can't have something like that interfere with your building :-)) .
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I should imagine it's the piston action being duplicated by the forces of the thrust on a wheel causing acceleration and deceleration of the shaft.
This is picked up by the rubber and bouncing minutely cause a pushing end to repel the receiving mating surface. In other words tie the two ends together somehow. If you don't have room for a joining tube then how about a solid rubber block with 2 holes in it to match the arms and keep them spaced apart.
Cheers
ken
Not sure I could do the block, the vertical offset would prevent it I think, unless I misunderstand how it would work (which is entirely possible). I may have to come up with a different plan altogether... >:-o
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Hi Cal, had a Carpal Tunnel relief operation, I have had bad hands for years, the op is supposed to cure it. Have you tried a disk with a slot in it as is on my Victoria? Runs nice and quiet, just make sure the driving pin is long enough to compensate for any misalignment. If the pins are only tied loosely, they will still be able to slide, as Kenny said, they could be bouncing apart. Does it make the same noise when running in the opposite direction? Things like this are a bit tricky when there is a few thousand miles of ocean in the way, probably sort it in no time with a bit of 'hands on'. Surgeon said to excersise fingers, so I may as well type rather than just aimlessly wiggle my fingers about, both hurt anyway.
Hope you get the job sorted,
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))
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Hi Cal,
from your descriptions and photos, and finally your video, would seem to me that you have a wee bit of a fundamental design flaw in your coupling alignment.
The intersection of your two shafts should be at the centre of the coupling.
If its not then your prop will not revolve at the same rpm as your motor.
You said yourself that there is a vertical offset and in your video, it is apparent that the prop is not running at constant rpm. it 'hunts' ie speeds up and slows down during each revolution.
See the sketch for reason. If you don't fix this it will result in excess wear everywhere, and always make the sound. Get that intersection back where it is supposed to be and everything will be fine
Hope this helps
cheers
vnkiwi
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Hi Cal, had a Carpal Tunnel relief operation, I have had bad hands for years, the op is supposed to cure it. Have you tried a disk with a slot in it as is on my Victoria? Runs nice and quiet, just make sure the driving pin is long enough to compensate for any misalignment. If the pins are only tied loosely, they will still be able to slide, as Kenny said, they could be bouncing apart. Does it make the same noise when running in the opposite direction? Things like this are a bit tricky when there is a few thousand miles of ocean in the way, probably sort it in no time with a bit of 'hands on'. Surgeon said to excersise fingers, so I may as well type rather than just aimlessly wiggle my fingers about, both hurt anyway.
Hope you get the job sorted,
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))
If your surgery went like my brothers did you will be very happy. It made a world of difference in his flexibility and strength. You'll be back to swinging that mini-hammer in no time!
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Hello Cal, op seems ok so far, not as painful as it was yesterday, but still can't tie shoe laces, good enough excuse for me to loaf about in my slippers! Looking at the drawing from vnkiwi, makes sense, it is ok to have a bit of an angle between engine and shaft, but the centrelines do need to line up. Have you fixed the engine bay floor down yet? as there is provision to angle the motor if necessary.
Keep at it, you will get there in the end :-)) :-)) :-))
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Hi Cal,
from your descriptions and photos, and finally your video, would seem to me that you have a wee bit of a fundamental design flaw in your coupling alignment.
The intersection of your two shafts should be at the centre of the coupling.
If its not then your prop will not revolve at the same rpm as your motor.
You said yourself that there is a vertical offset and in your video, it is apparent that the prop is not running at constant rpm. it 'hunts' ie speeds up and slows down during each revolution.
See the sketch for reason. If you don't fix this it will result in excess wear everywhere, and always make the sound. Get that intersection back where it is supposed to be and everything will be fine
Hope this helps
cheers
vnkiwi
The first time I read this I was unsure what you meant as the diagram didn't show up on my laptop. I know see it and I see the light!
It would be very difficult to change the stern tube location other than in and out, but I can move the engine somewhat. The last couple days have been busy and I haven't had time to investigate. Hopefully tomorrow... %)
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Can you pack the rear of the front up so it aligns with the shaft? or lift the whole engine up on spacers so you get a nice straight run from crankshaft to prop shaft? I am toying with the idea if fitting my PMR engine in Victoria when I take the steam -plant out for overhaul, ready for the spring....
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Can you pack the rear of the front up so it aligns with the shaft? or lift the whole engine up on spacers so you get a nice straight run from crankshaft to prop shaft? I am toying with the idea if fitting my PMR engine in Victoria when I take the steam -plant out for overhaul, ready for the spring....
I have the back end jacked up a little bit. The problem is the right side of the engine only has the one mounting bolt in the middle. If it had two in front and two in back it would be much simpler. I will locate some washers and see what I can do. Thanks to all for the help.
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Hi Cal, when you have established the position of the engine, you coul
d fit a wedge shape between the base of the engine and the bedplate.....
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I have (temporarily) placed a nut under the engine frame on the rear mounting bolt to jack up the back of the motor a little more and bring the two shafts into closer alignment. I just tested it and it runs much quieter. There was some noise from vibration but when I put a finger on the stern tube to cushion it it stopped. I would be satisfied with the sound it makes now, I just need to mount the motor more permanently at that angle.
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I have (temporarily) placed a nut under the engine frame on the rear mounting bolt to jack up the back of the motor a little more and bring the two shafts into closer alignment. I just tested it and it runs much quieter. There was some noise from vibration but when I put a finger on the stern tube to cushion it it stopped. I would be satisfied with the sound it makes now, I just need to mount the motor more permanently at that angle.
On the water in a few weeks then?
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Thanks Cal (and vnkiwi) for this discussion. I plan to use a similar connection between engine and prop shaft as you have done and this has given me a very clear steer on the things I need to pay attention to. I now know that I need to align the axes of drive shaft and prop shaft so that they intersect at the point the connection is made. It's simple when it's explained, but I would probably have had the same problem if I hadn't read this.
Thanks guys! :-)) :-))
Greg
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On the water in a few weeks then?
Hah! I started this about 9 months ago! I still have to build the cabin and paint everything! My goal when I started was to have it ready for our (last) July family reunion, now I'm hoping for this years reunion. I'm sure with the help I get here the rest of the build will go quickly. Provided I have the time to dedicate to it. My current project is finishing the second floor of my house. When finished I will have a room just for my hobby stuff, no more working on the boat on the kitchen table! When that happens things should move quickly.
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Jacked up the back of the engine a little more. Much quieter now. I think I can live with the sound it makes. Thanks to all for the advice. The pic is of what it looks like now. Taken with our new Pentax K5 digital SLR (Christmas Present) and a macro lens. I apologize for the focus, still learning about the camera!
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Great. :-)) If you had bolts buried heads down in the hull you could then have adjustable nuts each side of the frame and have infinite positioning for the engine. Then no-one would hear you cruising across the lake.
ken
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That's a great idea Ken, it may not be too late for me to do that. Currently I have the engine/boiler/gas tank plate mounted with blind nuts under the deck and machine screws to hold it on. Come to think of it I can probably still use the blind nuts and place a nut under the plate for adjustment! This may work out after all!
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I'm pleased for you. It's a system I use and really helps the silent running.
Ken
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Hi Cal, looking good now :-)) :-)) :-))
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If I get thoroughly disgusted with my current drive line setup, has anyone ever used a flex drive? Or would that be blasphemy? >>:-(
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Ive wondered about using a flex shaft in a basic run of the mill drive line, it would definatly sort many issues with alignment and noise. The downside to flex shafts is they can only be used to turn one way as they unravel if turned the wrong way, BUT how much power required to do this i do not know as they are usually used in high power applications. An alternative top flex cables but similar is wire drives, theres a page here that covers them a bit further down:
http://www.fastelectrics.net/drives.php (http://www.fastelectrics.net/drives.php)
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Thanks Mike, I don't want to resort to that but.... I'll not be driven nuts by a clanking driveline >>:-( ! Installation would be a LOT simpler though... I doubt my little 8M would have enough power or speed to unravel the flexshaft. Wonder how I would find out?
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Just a thought, as I'm building this boat, should I include any flotation devices of any sort? I mean foam or some other method to keep the boat at the surface should bad things happen? I was thinking of shooting the crevice filling insulation foam into the area under the deck or the forward compartment. Places that it wouldn't be seen. I will be sailing in a lake, the area I will be in will exceed 10' in depth. I don't want to have to rent SCUBA gear to get my boat back! This little boat represents too much time and money to sit at the bottom of the lake... What do you folks do?
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Divers every time.
Jerry.
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Hi Cal, really not necessary, Victoria is a really stable boat, and short of a scale hurricane, she would stay afloat. Builders foam, as far as I am concerned is a big no no, , It can ruin a nicely finished model, if even slightly to much is used it can cause structural damage, as it continues to expand for some time, even after it has cured. I have seen the results of to much foam, not a pretty sight, I can tell you.
Best wishes,
Nick.
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Divers every time.
Jerry.
Yes, I better get my diving certification!
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Hi Cal, really not necessary, Victoria is a really stable boat, and short of a scale hurricane, she would stay afloat. Builders foam, as far as I am concerned is a big no no, , It can ruin a nicely finished model, if even slightly to much is used it can cause structural damage, as it continues to expand for some time, even after it has cured. I have seen the results of to much foam, not a pretty sight, I can tell you.
Best wishes,
Nick.
Well, I would like my boat to be a pretty sight so no builders foam for me. Speaking of a hurricane, I'm more worried about the rogue jet skier... This is a public lake with all sorts of other water conveyances about. I will however only plan on sailing early mornings when the lake is calm and deserted.
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No building till my lair is complete! I can't wait, shortly I will have a room dedicated to the stuff I want to work on and nothing else! I should be moved in and back to building in less than a month! %%
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Wow! That will be great when it's finished. Are you doing the work yourself? Be sure to post a picture when it's done with your workbench and other boatbuilding bits so we can all feel really envious. :-))
Greg
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What a brilliant space, I like the sloping walls, it makes the room sort of 'lozenge' shaped, or is it just the boards leaning at an angle that is making it look that way? Look forward to seeing it once you have settled in......
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Wow! That will be great when it's finished. Are you doing the work yourself? Be sure to post a picture when it's done with your workbench and other boatbuilding bits so we can all feel really envious. :-))
Greg
The only work I'll be doing is painting and flooring. The rest is being contracted out. I will post pics when finished!
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What a brilliant space, I like the sloping walls, it makes the room sort of 'lozenge' shaped, or is it just the boards leaning at an angle that is making it look that way? Look forward to seeing it once you have settled in......
Yes Nick, the ceiling boards do slope, some people call this a "half story" not a full two story house. The plywood you see against the far wall is covering where we removed the window to bring in the sheetrock. One the left is a dormer with another window. My bench will be in front of the far window to take advantage of the natural light. I also have some new fangled LED lights which are very bright that will be mounted on the slopes for additional light and to work evenings. I am very much looking forward to it. I will probably be building in there before it is fully finished.
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Just an update on the "modeling cave". It is progressing slowly, all the sheetrock work is done and primed for the final coats of paint. I still have to trim the windows and doors. The AC is on (thankfully). As we say at work "this project is OBE" Overcome By Events. Too many other things have gotten in the way of working upstairs. Consequently the USS PFC Genereux (my Victoria) has not had a lick of work done on it in a few months. Our family vacation is coming in 14 days so I will have to take the Alexandra to sail at the lake. Hopefully, the "other events" will subside somewhat and i can finish the upstairs and get back to building. I know some folks had been watching this thread and I just wanted you to know it isn't dead! I shall return ASAP. Fair winds and following seas to all.
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Yes Cal, we're waiting patiently! Have a great vacation and I'm sure your Victoria will be none the worse for a short period of rest.
Good steaming with your Alexandra :-))
Greg
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What a farce my life has been the last two days %% . As many of you know I'm trying to get my Alexandra ready for our family vacation at the lake in two weeks. As you also know I've been finishing the second floor of my house so many things are in disarray. Well I have the new transmitter I bought for the PFC Genereux that I was going to use for the Alexandra, but I can't find any of the other components!!! >>:-( . No receiver, no battery pack no servos, anywhere. I can't even find the box they came in! I have turned house and garage upside down searching >>:-( . So tonite I gave up and bought a receiver on ebay. I was actually quite lucky because the correct receiver for my radio was ending this evening. I guess I can scrounge some servos from some other conveyance and use an aftermarket battery pack. What a couple of days! I know this was off topic but boy! It sure was aggravating! I hope none of you are this disorganized!
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Ha, how many times have I done that! You are not the only one there Cal, spent an hour looking for my pencil once, it was behind my ear all the time.....
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A problem I'm running in to with the Alexandra is the original builder hard wired the servos. He used a miniature servo for the rudder and glued the wire in place all the way to the receiver. Same thing with the throttle only the distance is much shorter. The battery pack has no plug, it also is wired with one piece of wire all the way to the receiver. I'm concerned that the plugs for these servos will fit my Futaba receiver. If not, the safest thing for me to do would be to use the futaba servos (which I still haven't found). I'm afraid to just change the plugs as I don't know if the servos in the boat are positive or negative shift. I believe Futaba are positive shift. Any input is appreciated. :D
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I knew this would happen... As soon as I ordered a receiver for the Alexandra I found the missing components >>:-( . Well at least now I have a receiver for each boat. :embarrassed:
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Good form, enjoy your sail and keep an eye on that water level.....
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Well Gentlemen (and ladies), I have decided to resurrect this thread as I have finally gotten enough stuff finished upstairs to begin work once again! :-))
As has been my habit throughout this thread I have a question. My plans call for fake ribs to be installed which is fine, but the hull is ABS and is bright white. Do most of you (with ABS hulls) paint the inside to make it more realistic? There are large areas of the inside of the hull that will be visible. The pic, from earlier in the build, shows some outlined in red. Do you paint it? If so, with what and what colors are appropriate? Remember by fake ribs will be placed on top. Suggestions are welcome.
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Hullo Cal, I fitted the ribs first, then masked them off and painted between with a matt white. to make life a little easier, varnish one side of the strip you will be using for the ribs while it is still a long strip. I used a pair of deviders to keep the spacing equal.
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Why matte white? Won't that collect and hold dirt? Isn't it difficult to mask each rib? My lazy self would paint the whole inside of the hull then stick on the ribs, but I guess I'd run the risk of them not sticking to the paint.....
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That is the problem, if you paint the lot first, the glue might not stick, or it will stick at first then lift off later. Choice of paint is whatever you prefer, I hate using gloss paint, so used matt, it is more forgiving and dries quicker than gloss. I didn't mask the ribs, I was just careful, and as the ribs were varnished first, it was easy to wipe off any paint that had gone astray.......
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Will most paints stick to the ABS or do I need to prep it somehow first? I have acrylic based hobby paints in several colors.
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Give the surface a light rub with 800 grade paper and wipe with a damp cloth, If you varnish the strips for the ribs before cutting them, leaving the back side un varnished, you can cut and fit them,and it will be easier to wipe any stray paint off the varnished wood....
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Hello fellow Mayhemers! Alas, it has been many months since I last posted here {:-{ . Unfortunately life got in the way of my building the PFC Genereux. I hope this will change in the coming weeks/months. My "man cave/building shop" is finally progressing once again. The first pic is what it currently looks like, the second is how it will appear cleared out and with the flooring down. The third is the current state of the PFC Genereux, covered with dust and the crew sound asleep!
I very much look forward to interacting with all my friends here, you have all been so helpful in the building of this boat, especially pettyofficernick, without whom I would probably still be trimming the abs hull! My time schedule is (hopefully) to have the flooring down in the "cave" by the early November. Then I will be able to move in and start building again! Wish me luck!
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Welcome back Cal! About time you got the PFC Generaux done and dusted, ready for next spring then?
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Hi Cal, I wondered what had happened to you. Great looking workshop, nice not to have to share with the car/washing machine/lawn mower/spiders like many of us {-).
Looking forward to seeing your next post.
Greg
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Thanks Greg, and yes it will be nice to not have to share my workbench (aka the dining room table) with the Mrs. I must say she was a good sport though. The partially assembled item my son is vacuuming inside in the second pic will be my new workbench. 2X4 frame and plywood surface 4'X6', any suggestions for a surface treatment? The plywood may be a little rough. Formica maybe? Marble %% , I'm thinking I need something on top of the plywood. The sloped portion of the ceilings will each have a hi intensity 4' LED light so these old eyes will be able to see what I'm working on! Yes it is shaping up nicely. Once I get started I'm sure it will take me a week or so to figure out where I was on the build of the PFC Genereux. I am looking forward to it immensely. As Nick says :-)) :-)) :-))
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As for your workbench surface, Formica is nice and easy to clean - but how about masonite (hardboard in the UK)? Nice smooth, flat surface, kindly on sharp blades if they slip onto it and easily and cheaply replaced if/when it gets cut up or messy with glue, paint, coffee, oil, or any of the other gloopy things we use in our modelling. You can also pin jigs or building frames to it without destroying your bench and fit bench dogs or clamping devices a little easier than if you have something more solid.
Just a thought. My bench is formica so I may well be talking out of my rear end!! O0
(And if you try it and don't like it, it's easily removed and replaced with formica or whatever you want :-)))
Greg
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That's a great idea Greg :-)) . I was thinking maybe cork but its probably too soft, I also thought of a scrap piece of linoleum, but they usually have a textured surface. On the other hand, it can be bought in 1' self adhesive squares, if I tear a section up cutting or spill glue on it I can replace just that square or two..... What do you think of that?
I can get masonite for about $9 per 4'X8' sheet, linoleum squares cost as little as $0.38 each, so the cost would be about the same. Good ideas Greg, you have me thinking....
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Hi Mulears, I'd go with Greg on the Masonite/Hardboard. It's cheap as chips and lasts well. I've used linoleum also. Lino takes pins well if pinning to plans but some solvents and glues can make it go gooey and stain wood and plasticard.
Jerry.
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Speaking from a position of absolutely no experience at all :embarrassed: I probably wouldn't go for a tiled surface. I can't help feeling that the joins will always get in the way of something. Either the surface won't be quite flat or the joins will collect dirt or they will "catch" a pencil point as you draw a critical line on a piece of paper - and maybe all of the above. But as I say, I have zero experiencee, of a tiled surface, so what do I know? %)
Greg
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Well, I guess the votes are in....and the winner is.....Masonite! You all have convinced me, that is the way to go. The last points by Greg made a lot of sense, so Masonite it is.
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Well my fine group of gentlemen, the time has come to resurrect this old thread. You have all been most helpful in the past (with a special nod to pettyofficernick :-)) :-)) :-)) ). It is about 15* F here (-9 to you folks across the pond) and it is time to get back to building! As has been the case throughout this thread I have a question. I have been contemplating how to assemble the awning over the aft of the PFC Genereux and I don't know how to connect three brass rods 90* from one another, in other words, how do I connect the rear upright to the rear corner of the awning? Does someone make a brass fitting? If so, I cannot find it! Do I need to fab my own? Or am I attacking this entirely wrong? I know Krick makes an accessory package for the Victoria but it seems to be horribly overpriced and I'd rather do it myself anyway. Any help is greatly appreciated! I very much look forward to getting back in the swing of building and again appreciate all the help I have received in the past.
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Hi Cal, if you don't want to buy the fittings kit, the easiest way is to use thin brass tube for the rear uprights, (see plan for dimensions) topped with a ball grabrail stanction http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/rb-grabrail-stanchions.html (follow link for examples) you will need 4, 2 for rear uprights, 2 for front, which are affixed to the cabin roof, use a small piece of tube and a washer as a flange to make a socket to sit uprights in. Make the top frame from brass wire as per Victoria plan. Alternatively you could use the method I used on African Queen and solder up corner pieces similar to what you would find on a frame tent. There are pictures of this on my African Queen thread.....
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Thanks Nick. I got the gas jet all cleaned up and am fitting a copper tube so I can connect it to the gas tank. That brings up another question. The gas tank is full of air. The first time I fill it it will have a significant amount of air present. How should I deal with this? Or will it just have reduced capacity the first few times its used? Or doesn't it matter?
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Cal...the gas in your disposable gas bottle is actually in its [compressed] liquid phase, so when you fill the gas tank via the Goodall valve part of the hissing you will hear is the gas [fluid] displacing the air :-))
The positioning of the Goodall valve also ensures you cannot overfill the tank and you always have an air space above the liquid to enable the fluid to boil off as gas............ Derek
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Thanks Derek, This is a new tank and I was concerned that I had to evacuate it somehow. I plan to use butane as my primary fuel. Anything special I need to know about that?
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I filled (I think) the tank with butane, hooked everything up and this is what I got. Does this look right? It's at a pretty low setting.
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Cal......the yellow/red in the flame suggests incomplete combustion....ideally you need bluish/purple flame at the pointy end
The boiler is a Macsteam???...did it come with instructions?....
We can see the 4 air inlet holes and these appear not to be restricted.....you probably can adjust the position of the gas jet..... relative to these holes to gain a greater venturi type draw to allow more air/oxygen
The image below is of your boiler in 2012....you can see the jet holder adjustment/locking screw
When you do achieve the optimum flame, engrave a small mark where the jet engages into the jet holder....this is for later reference so you don't have to repeat the exercise down the track....... Derek
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Thank you Derek, that makes good sense. I'll fiddle and see what I can come up with.
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Derek, I have taken yours and Nick's advice and moved the jet about as far from the flame as I can, it definitely has more of a "blowtorch" appearance than it did with it all the way in. It is difficult to see in the pic but the bottom of the flame, near the ceramic portion of the burner, is blue. I will continue to fidget and see if I can make the flame all blue. I'm using straight butane, if that makes a difference.
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Cal...the gas in your disposable gas bottle is actually in its [compressed] liquid phase, so when you fill the gas tank via the Goodall valve part of the hissing you will hear is the gas [fluid] displacing the air :-))
The positioning of the Goodall valve also ensures you cannot overfill the tank and you always have an air space above the liquid to enable the fluid to boil off as gas............ Derek
Derek,
Goodall valves are never used in gas tanks only in boilers to feed them with water while still under steam.
If a Goodall valve was used there is a very great chance that the rubber tube fitted to the valve would crack or go hard when the temp drops below freezing in the tank when in use and allow gas to pass out to atmosphere and cause a fire..
The correct fitting for Gas tanks is the Ronson type which is fitted to manufactured tanks and clearly shown on Cal's fuel tank.
Cal it's O.K. to use straight Butane, I use it all the time and have had no adverse effects, just keep adjusting the jet holder to get the best flame and as Derek says mark the final position on the holder.
George
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Thank you George. I fired the boiler for the first time this morning! It took about 10 minutes to reach 40 psi, starting with 70*F (room temp) water. I kind of expected the safety valve to let go at 60 psi but it went at 45. Boy was that a surprise! Glad I wasn't standing over it! Thanks again to all for the help, I think I can tweak the flame a little more and maybe get the heating time down another minute or so. And here comes my stupid question of the day... how do you light the burner when its in the boiler? I thought just put a flame at the end of the chimney and poof off you go. But for me it was poof out it went. I guess the trick is to let the gas run a second or so to fill the chimney before introducing the flame? If there is a better/easier/safer way please let me know!
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Opps.....yes Ronson valve......my gas tank has a Ronson valve installed ...thanks for the correction George......I don't even have a Goodall valve, but an inline check valve for boiler feed ....... Derek
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Thank you George. I fired the boiler for the first time this morning! It took about 10 minutes to reach 40 psi, starting with 70*F (room temp) water. I kind of expected the safety valve to let go at 60 psi but it went at 45. Boy was that a surprise! Glad I wasn't standing over it! Thanks again to all for the help, I think I can tweak the flame a little more and maybe get the heating time down another minute or so. And here comes my stupid question of the day... how do you light the burner when its in the boiler? I thought just put a flame at the end of the chimney and poof off you go. But for me it was poof out it went. I guess the trick is to let the gas run a second or so to fill the chimney before introducing the flame? If there is a better/easier/safer way please let me know!
Cal,
You will have to experiment with the gas pressure, I think what's happening is that to get the best burn you have moved the jet holder away from the burner and you are giving too much gas and air which is blowing the flame out.
You will have to compromise by starting with the gas valve just open before applying the light to the funnel, keep nudging the jet nearer to the burner and you will find the spot that lights when you apply the light at the funnel.
George
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Thank you George, I shall give that a shot next time I fire her up.
I finally got it lit this morning but it took 6 or 7 tries. Each time it just poofed and blew itself out. Until finally the burner caught and I turned it up.