Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Steam => Topic started by: Steve Dean on March 06, 2018, 12:47:42 pm
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Some you may be aware that the Model Engineering Liason Group (MELG) comprising representatives from the Southern Fed, Northern Fed, 16mm Garden Railway Association and I believe someone from the MPBA have been meeting for many months to agree the separation of the 'Green Book' into 3 parts. One of the reasons for this is to cope with very small boilers, i.e. below 3 Bar/Litre that typically only have one means of putting water in the boiler. Out of these discussions has come the requirements for hydraulic testing of gas tanks.
I am told that the test pressure for gas tanks in garden rail size locomotives will be mandated at 600 PSI.
What about steam boats ?
The gas tank in a typical small scale locomotive does get very hot and can reach very elevated pressure, therefore, I can understand the 600 PSI test requirement in this application.
However in a typical steam launch (as an example) the gas tank if often a reasonable distance from the boiler. Therefore, I would like to ask the question; Does anyone know what the requirement will be for gas tanks in this application?
I called three manufacturers of gas tanks for model boats today and they each test to different pressures, i.e. 275, 330 and 375 PSI.
I would be interested to hear input in this respect, as I have a number of members in my local Club who are very concerned because they attend events and are worried they will be asked to show gas tank certificates for 600 PSI.
If you are knowledgeable about the changes to the Code please reply asap.
Many thanks.
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Nice to speak to you today Steve. The requirement quoted of 600 psi = 41 bar will still (according to current regulations) allow a gas tank of up to 1 litre volume before it moves from SEP to the next grade of validation, so from a purely legal perspective nothing will have changed. My gas tanks are made entirely from brass and during R&D I did test them to 500 psi with no problem, but they are not nor never were designed to withstand such high pressures, and are certified to 300 psi at the moment. If this regulation were to be retrospectively imposed it would render almost every gas tank made within europe for the steam community as scrap, not least because the thin gauge copper which most tanks are made of will simply distort out of all reccognition if exposed to such high pressures. Let us hope this is not the case.
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Hi Nigel ....... thank you for contributing to this thread.
By now it was hoped that the MELG would have published the new 3 part Code but so far nothing has been put out.
I started this thread in an attempt to provoke (in a nice way) some input from someone with factual knowledge as to what is going to be the requirement re gas tanks where model boats are concerned. I'm hoping someone from MELG or the MPBA will add to this thread.
As you correctly state, if the requirement for gas tanks to be tested to 600 PSI is applied retrospectively then everyone has a problem.
At the time of writing this, 76 people have read this thread already, so there will chatter going on and hopefully someone with factual knowledge will make a statement soon.
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as a matter of interest what are the cans of butane pressure tested at? my biat runs off a can and as i understand it does not need a certificate for this. my boiler does of course!
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ps steam boat phil might have some input on this
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Hi Klunk,
Now you're into a 'grey' area. The typical can of Butane that we all use has a gas pressure of around 30 PSI but I've never seen a can showing a test pressure and you certainly don't get a test certificate with one !
Interestingly, I've seen fairly large scale steam boats with a round camping gas type container located somewhere near the bow. In this situation an event organiser would be within their rights to ask to see a test certificate for this container.
Much of the current situation has come about due to the discussions within MELG and this has been very centric to the fact that gas tanks in garden railway locomotives get very hot. This is why I am trying get clarity where model boats are concerned.
I am going to PM 'Steam Boat Phil' as he could very well have some input on this.
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the gas canister does not require a test certificate as it meets a higher set of criteria for the transport industry etc. my question still stands about what the criteria is. it would be ridiculous to set a higher pressure for the gas tank when this can is lower! if the gas canister rating is good enough for transit and handling in warehouses then a model gas tank should be the same!
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Klunk ...... there is a fundamental difference ..... in a model garden railway locomotive the gas tank is in very close proximity to the boiler and can reach very elevated temperatures and therefore very high pressure. This is the reason for all the deliberations by MELG.
The problem is that if the Green Book stipulates that ALL gas tanks have to be pressure tested to 600 PSI, then we all have an insurance problem with the gas tanks in our model boats that were tested to a lower pressure.
Just in case anyone thinks I'm being alarmist, as Chairman of a club I need to make sure that our boiler inspectors and members know the current situation. Also as I have said above, many of us attend events and none of us want to walk into a situation whereby a well informed safety official refuses to let us operate as we are non-compliant.
PS. I'll PM you my home number if you fancy at chat on this subject.
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but we are not talking about garden engines, as per your question "is to cope with very small boilers, i.e. below 3 Bar/Litre that typically only have one means of putting water in the boiler. Out of these discussions has come the requirements for hydraulic testing of gas tanks."
there is a massive and very fundamental difference in the way they operate. rules for garden steam railways are different due to the location and size of said tanks. so you are saying that my steam engine in my boat, run on a commercially built butane canister, that is used in building sites, campsites and in housholds up and down the country do not conform to what??? that would mean they would be illegal to use due to health and safety?????!!!! they MUST BY LAW CONFORM TO A SET STANDARD. if a modelling institute say that that standard is not good enough, then where do you get your info from and the proof to refute it? or perhaps im missing the point???
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http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1801831.pdf
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http://docs-europe.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/12d3/0900766b812d3a91.pdf
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Klunk ..... we need to be a bit careful ...... we are on a public forum and I don't want people to think that you and I are having an argument. Heaven forbid, we've known each other a long time.
Let me try and be a bit more succinct. The potential problem is that some model boat clubs are affiliated to the Northern Fed/Southern Fed and some clubs operate at sites which are part of a model engineering club. As part of these arrangements, boiler testing is carried out in accordance with the 'Green Book'. Therefore if the revised 3 part Green Book states that gas tanks have to be tested to 600 PSI, then we a have a problem.
Please don't mis-understand why I started this topic. Me and my club boiler inspectors do NOT see a need to test gas tanks in model boats to 600 PSI and nor do any of the manufacturers that supply model boaters. However, we as a club are affiliated to the Northern Federation and therefore to issue Test Certificates we have to be compliant with the Green Book. Hopefully you can see the problem.
As I said earlier, I've sent you a PM with my home number ........ give me a call.
Cheers
Steve.
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Hello chaps, the chap on the MELG group from the MPBA would be me :-))
Now not to confuse things at the moment but a quick heads up on gas tank testing, all gas tanks are to be tested to 400psi (boats trains and aeroplanes if you have one.
The new 3 park books have now been approved and are going for print.
I also have all the details of boilers under the 3 bar litre and the new regulations regarding them.
These I can put into an information should people require it (believe me you really don't need the whole book, same for gas tanks)
:-))
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Yes please Phil. Also quote your references please. Most of the steam stuff I am involved with is steam trains under the 3 bar litre limit. Since most could be regarded as "toys" and much of it was made many decades ago there is no way that it could be subjected to anything other than a visual inspection and demonstration that the safety valve is working. Cheers John.
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Phil - how does the book address the use of commercial disposable gas canisters? I imagine there is a standard to which they are manufactured but how does that stack up against the 400psi requirement?
Greg
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Hi John
As there will be a lost of intrest I will prepare some information sheets with the new regs on, should have them done by the middle of next week and I let you all know.
Greg, the commercial available tanks do not need testing, and we have looked at all the ones available, I won't go to deep into what we (the MELG) have been through regarding their test pressures, needless to say 400 psi for our needs was (after a lot !!!!)of discussions and consultations decided upon.
Phil
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phil.....any chance of training on boiler testing??? maybe at mayhem . .
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I think that can be arranged no problem O0
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Hi Phil ........ brilliant to hear from you ....... I was going to PM you this evening.
We as a Club are affiliated to the Northern Fed therefore I should receive the Full new code in due course ....... however I would welcome information from you as well. At least we will viewing the code from a model boat perspective (although I'm also a garden railway owner).
If the gas tank pressure test is to be 400 PSI, then this needs communicating to the trade asap. As you will have seen from my previous posts, I called three well know suppliers to the model steam boat sector and none of them currently test to that level.
I'll PM you my home number, as there some other aspects that it would be worth us having a chat about.
Many thanks for your input.
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Thanks for this post because as a new comer to steam I have found the information very interesting. I am interested though in getting hold of a green book. Could someone please point me in the right direction. I've also just had a look at the certificate for my gas tank and it was tested to 500 psi so I guess mines Ok under the new testing regs.
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Hi Mark,
I don't believe an individual can get a copy of the 'Green Book'. They tend to be issued to Clubs that are affiliated to the Southern or Northern Federations of Model Engineering Clubs. However as 'Steam Boat Phil' has been representing the MPBA at the MELG meetings then I presume he will get a full copy as well.
When the revised Code is available (hopefully later this month), I'll check on availability and let you know.
Best regards
Steve.
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Given that a large number of commercially produced gas tanks have been tested below 400psi will these require retrospective testing?
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Hi
I believe the new three part regs are being proof read as we speak. They are planned for printing very soon and I am informed by NAME that they will be published on the Northern Association of Model Engineers website, soon after printing.
Norman Andrew
(Cheddar Steam Club Hon Sec.)
http://www.cheddarsteamclub.co.uk/
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Hi Steamup (Gateshead)
Your question is one of many that I am pursuing answers to. Many gas tanks in use would probably fail (or suffer distortion) at 400 PSI as they were not designed for this pressure.
As soon as more information is forthcoming then I will add it to this thread.
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Without needing to buy into this question, as we in Australian have boiler and other pressure rated vessels covered by a strict set of Rules according to our AMBSC Codes
Having said this, a tank gas designed for use under previous UK regulations for a Test Pressure of 25 Bar [~~375 PSI] will not necessarily fail at a Test Pressure of 400 PSI. The design factor of safety would however would be reduced
A tale of two cities?.....where there is smoke a fire may exist? or is a storm is brewing in the tea-cup?
Derek
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Hi Derek ........ thank you for your contribution.
You are quite correct, a gas tank designed for a hydraulic test of 375 PSI is very likely going to be perfectly capable of handling a test pressure of 400 PSI. I am sure that one well known manufacture is already looking at this.
However, there are several other manufacturers, that currently apply a pressure test significantly below 400 PSI and the design of their tanks may require revision.
Once the new revised 3 part 'Green Book' is issued and in use then some clarity will prevail.
There are still a number of unanswered questions, particularly around all the gas tanks that are currently in use. I continue to try and get some clear guidance on this but so far none is forthcoming.
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Steve...
We at our Illawarra Live Steamers Co-op are fortunate in that a number of our members are also on the Board and Committee members for the Australian Miniature Boiler Safety Committee....namely the President, Secretary and a Technical Officer
ILS also have four members who are Licenced Boiler Inspectors as being covered by our New South Wales Workcover Department
Australia had traditionally followed British Technical Standards and adopted many [word for word] in the adoption of AUS/NZ Technical Standards
The same/similar applies to our AMBSC requirements, so the wash up %) [for Gas Tanks] of your UK Standards will/may apply here in due course
[On a separate mention, this UK test revision must also consider gas tanks as installed in Gauge 1 or Garden Gauge model steam engines]
Derek
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Derek
In the US, there are no rules on any of this. We can blow ourselves up just about
any way we want.
That being said, the ladies in my life (with 2 and 4 legs) would be upset if I came
home without the normal number of fingers.
Any chance I can order the technical manual you display?
Regards,
Jim
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Jim.....good to hear those sleepy dogs are all OK......send me a PM with your landline e-mail address & I'll see what I can do :-X............Derek
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Sent a PM,
Let me know if you got it.
Thanks
JP
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Hullo poppajim….these are registered & subject to Copyright so I cannot publish them :-X
Check your Internet machine {-)
Derek
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Jim P.
Jim here is the link to the current boiler regs in the U.K. ( http://www.nameng.org.uk/images/Boiler_Testing_Documents/2012_Test_Code_V12a.pdf )
You can print off the pages but make sure you have plenty of black ink in your printer. These Regs will be superseded by the new ones that are being discussed and about to come into circulation and I have no doubts that they will be published on line when ready.
There are no restrictions in printing off The Regs as the U.K. has nothing to hide, it would seam that the people in Australia don't want there Regs to be known World wide.
George.
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Jim ...... whilst you could use the link above, I wouldn't bother (unless you want to read what is about to be superseded) as the new 3 part 'Green Book' should be available in the next few weeks.
The section regarding 'gas tanks' is eagerly awaited by many people as there is a great deal of concern in the model boating & garden railway circles regarding the gas tanks people currently have fitted to their models.
As I have stated on this thread, when I have definitive information, I will alert everyone.
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Jim P.
Jim here is the link to the current boiler regs in the U.K. ( http://www.nameng.org.uk/images/Boiler_Testing_Documents/2012_Test_Code_V12a.pdf (http://www.nameng.org.uk/images/Boiler_Testing_Documents/2012_Test_Code_V12a.pdf) )
You can print off the pages but make sure you have plenty of black ink in your printer. These Regs will be superseded by the new ones that are being discussed and about to come into circulation and I have no doubts that they will be published on line when ready.
There are no restrictions in printing off The Regs as the U.K. has nothing to hide, it would seam that the people in Australia don't want there Regs to be known World wide.
George.
Hi George,
I don't think that if is a cause of hiding things, as if you send them money they will send the regulation.
Gerald.
PS I did have a copy before I moved house, but haven't been able to find it and some other books since.
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Jim ...... whilst you could use the link above, I wouldn't bother (unless you want to read what is about to be superseded) as the new 3 part 'Green Book' should be available in the next few weeks.
The section regarding 'gas tanks' is eagerly awaited by many people as there is a great deal of concern in the model boating & garden railway circles regarding the gas tanks people currently have fitted to their models.
As I have stated on this thread, when I have definitive information, I will alert everyone.
Steve,
What is available with the link is the current situation on code of practise and should be adhered to until the new Regs become official when ever that is ?
It will also give readers some insight to what it's all about when the new Regs become available.
As you and I know there is very little concrete rules that govern gas tanks and I think it will be of great help to those who have gas tanks at present as to what will have to be done to them when the Regs come out so I don't think that it would be a waist of time to have read at the existing Rules and Regs but it's up to the individuals whether to read or not.
George.
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Hi George,
I don't think that if is a cause of hiding things, as if you send them money they will send the regulation.
Gerald.
PS I did have a copy before I moved house, but haven't been able to find it and some other books since.
Gerald ,
I have no inclination to buy a copy of the Australian Regs as I am quite happy with the U.K. ones at present but look forward to the new Regs coming out.
There has been some time since a revision on gas tanks became clearer but you must remember that the Insurance Companies have been quite happy with the existing ones, however if the new ones are a bit safer and clearer it's all to the good.
George.
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Although nether the UK or the Australian rules apply in Ontario Canada, I try to build my boilers so they would pass ether. I don't have a copy of the current Ontario Reg., but have been told that most model boilers still fall under the previous Regs. I did find out that if you are selling toy boilers in Canada they must be tested to three times working pressure.. Jim have you checked with your State Regulations, as some States do have regulations similar to Ontario, and our size boilers are exempt. It is best to check these days with the popularity of Law suites over common sense accidents.
Gerald.
George with the comprehensive Regs. in the UK I can certainly see why, and if I was in that situation I would not have bought a copy ether. At the time I bought mine one of the insurance company's here made reference to it as well as the UK ones. Over here the main problem is that with nobody authorized to issue boiler certificates, it often falls on the Fire Marshal at public events as to whether you can run or not.
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Gerald,
I do feel for you. it must be quite daunting going to a Steam rally not knowing as to whether you will be able to sail or not at least here in the U.K. we have designated boiler tester in each club that runs steam and can test and issue Certificates that are recognised.
We in Scotland abide by the Books of Regs issued by the various Federations in England as it saves so much heart ache if you drive at aRally and not being allowed to sail.
Thanks for your input maybe J.P. can find out what is the Certification situation in in his State that he can adhere to.
George.
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This thread has prompted me to look again at the Australian reg book - I cant find the section on gas tanks but the sections on boiler making certainly leave nothing to the imagination - very defined parameters for just about every aspect of building a boiler, even down to exact dims for just about any bush size you could ever want. Whoever wrote it knew a thing or two about designing and making boilers!
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Everyone,
One of the great things about this forum is how well we can exchange ideas and compare situations from around the world.
The USA and the State of Colorado specifically, generally do not worry about toys. In Colorado, the only boiler regs are those
for boilers used in the heating of a building/facility/home.
There are regs for fuel transport for propane/butane. but any commercial fuel cylinder is OK. Gas tanks can be refilled, but in general
states do not want you to transport them full.
Nothing on construction of model boilers, engines, railways, etc.
BUT IF YOUR BOAT BLOWS UP INSIDE CITY LIMITS THEY WILL ARREST/CITE YOU FOR DANGEROUS ACTIVITIES.
So my reason is one of research. The more I know about the regs in areas that care, the better I am, and the safer it will
be to have my grandchildren, and other innocent beings around me when I am steaming.
Off to my own thread,
Regards,
Jim
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JP ...... I take my hat off to you Sir.
Thank you for taking such a responsible attitude and showing consideration to others.
Keep following this thread and we will collectively keep you informed. When the new 3 part revised 'Green Book' is published, I will personally provide you with a link from where you will be able to download a PDF of the document.
Very best regards
Steve.
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hi is their any update on the new regs as i have 2 boilers i need testing before mid april as there is a steam day coming up thanks in advance
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hi is their any update on the new regs as i have 2 boilers i need testing before mid april as there is a steam day coming up thanks in advance
To save yourself some trouble when you go to your Steam day if it was me I would have the boilers and the Gas tanks tested under the Current Regs as the discussed future change Regulations are not applicable, as I don't suppose that the New Regs will be published and become the rule, so don't take the chance of appearing at your Steam day without any Regs.and test Certification.
It would be nice to know if boilers and tanks tested at present under the existing Regulations would be valid for how long ?
George.
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:-)) thanks for your reply .will get them tested now then. like you say at least i can run them
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Gentlemen ........ I can confirm that following a few amendments the new 'Green Book' ( which will become the new 3-part 'Orange Book' ) is currently at the printers and the adoption date will be 1st May 2018.
I can confirm that the hydraulic test for gas tanks will be 400 PSI. There will obviously be a set of criteria that is part of the testing procedure.
I can also confirm that I will be able to detail (as Word documents) the 3 parts of the 'Orange Book'.
At risk of stating the obvious ....... Test Certificates (and the recording procedures) will only be issued to Clubs which are affiliated to appropriate Associations, i.e. Southern, Midland & Northern Associations of Model Engineers, MPBA, etc.
As stated previously I will make best efforts to keep you all updated.
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A quick heads up, the affiliated clubs to the MPBA will be issuing their own certificates. :-))
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Steve.
The 3 orange books are now on the NAME website..
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Gentlemen,
The new 3 part 'Orange Book' is now in the public domain. You can find details on the web site of the Northern Association of Model Engineering Clubs at www.nameng.org.uk
I also have the 3 parts of the code as Word documents. If you care to send me a PM via Mayhem then I will email you copies of the documents.
It is interesting to note that I have not spoken to a single manufacturer that was aware or had been advised that these changes were about to come into effect. Therefore be particularly careful if buying gas tanks as you may find your purchase to be non-compliant.
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A quick read of these regulations indicates to me that sections 5-8 do not apply to commercial gas tanks
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Hello Steve
Thanks for the information re the new regulations .I cannot see anything about older manufactured gas tanks , I have one made by Mike Abbott from Macsteam and that is only tested up to 300 psi does that mean it is no longer usable?.
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Read section 2:4 this does not effect commercial tanks regarding the hydraulic test.
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It does seem to be from section 2.4 regarding gas tanks that we have the situation whereby someone building their own gas tank will need to have their boiler inspector perform a hydraulic test to 400 PSI. However commercial gas tanks, some of which are only tested to 120 PSI, will be ok to use.
Logically therefore, when a commercial gas tank is due for retest after 5 years, it will only be tested to its original test pressure.
This also means we will have a situation with gas tanks in use, all tested to different pressure and no consistancy.
This seems to be a somewhat strange outcome. I'm sure there will be further comments on this.
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Always the issue when rules are drawn up by commity looks to me like a pigs breakfast and I've looked at it for ten minutes lol
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It does seem to be from section 2.4 regarding gas tanks that we have the situation whereby someone building their own gas tank will need to have their boiler inspector perform a hydraulic test to 400 PSI. However commercial gas tanks, some of which are only tested to 120 PSI, will be ok to use.
Logically therefore, when a commercial gas tank is due for retest after 5 years, it will only be tested to its original test pressure.
This also means we will have a situation with gas tanks in use, all tested to different pressure and no consistancy.
This seems to be a somewhat strange outcome. I'm sure there will be further comments on this.
Hi Steve thanks for the information. As a newcomer to steam I find this situation a bit perplexing. If the new Orange book has not yet gone to print I would hope that the committee would accept that there is a inconsistency here and look again at the regs. Surely all gas tanks should conform to one standard; otherwise people like me will just not understand decisions made regarding our hobby?
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Welcome the the world of model engineering. It's beyond me why the test has been set at 400psi anybody who has run a gas tank in a boat will tell you that the biggest problem is a drop in pressure has the gas tank freezers due to evaporation
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1.7
The provisions of this Test Code shall come into effect on 1st May 2018 and shall not be retrospective.
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Interesting thread.
Recently I have built two 1/12 scale narrow boats, both electric powered. I've just starting a third, based on a Birmingham Canal Navigation (BCN) type tug and was thinking of having it steam powered. Having read the above, I'm wondering if I need the grief!
Based on a 50 inch length and a displacement of about 25lbs, I assume my steam plant will not fall under the 3 bar/Litre exemption?
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Not really that would fall below the 3 bar litre rule for the required power
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Thanks for that. I'll carry on building. :-)