Model Boat Mayhem
Mess Deck: General Section => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: roycv on February 08, 2021, 01:44:26 pm
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Hi all we have just had smart meters installed. I now find the feed to my garage trips out. This also has an RSD controlled extension cable that goes to my workshop. Maximum load is 500 watts with heater on, otherwise just lighting etc.
I isloated the workshop by unplugging it, and it does not trip. The workshop is about 50 feet away from the outlet in the garage. The wiring is 13 amp flexible cable. The oil filled radiator in the workshop is set to come on when temperature falls below 5 or 6 centigrade. It is possible the trip happens when the heater comes on, I do not know.
But I have been in the shed and switched the heater on and off without any problem.
I reconnected the shed and it is OK but sometime later the house trip goes. I reset the trip in the house and the power goes on in the shed. So the RSD trip in the garage wiring to the shed did not trip out.
This has all been working for the last 10 years without any problems.
Are there any issues with the new type electricity meters?
My next move was to eliminate the RSD in the wiring to the shed but not sure this will be effective.
I welcome any ideas on what is wrong.
Best regards
Roy
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Hi Roy,
Not an electric expert, but have you tried the heater on one of the house socket to see if it trips when it come on via the thermostat if the RCD trips then I’d say there a fault on the heater. Then do the same with extension lead with another appliance you know is ok.
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This makes interesting reading.
https://communities.theiet.org/discussions/viewtopic/1037/23661#forums-view-topic (https://communities.theiet.org/discussions/viewtopic/1037/23661#forums-view-topic)
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Hi,
I have heard instances where this was caused by the smart meter when it transmits data back to base.
Apparently some models have a transceiver box that can be positioned away from any RCD that it may trip. Have a look and see if that is a possibility.
Innes
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Industrial Extension Leads (https://www.industrialextensionleads.co.uk/)
Hi plastic have a look here all good info
David
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Hi all thanks for the response.
T888 I did say in my post that I had turned it on and off without problem while in the workshop.
Sub culture thanks for that.My situation is a bit odd! On the day of installation I was told that other comms parts needed fitting. The following day I received an email that my electricity and gas provider had ceased trading!
As far as I know there is no comms connection, but I suppose it does not mean it is not trying!
David
I wondered if I had a cable insulation failure but put it to one side as it had all run for many years and it would have been too much of a coincidence. I did trace its path and there did not seem to be anything obvious. I would have expected its own RSD to trip if there was.
I will contact the meter installers to see if they have information on RSD's and tripping.
Regards
Roy
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HI Roy Contacting your energy supplier may not pay dividends any internal faults are your responsibility. Just be aware under current regulations what you can can do on electrical installations is very limited. Consult a qualified electrician to sort out your problem.
Stan
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Hi Stan I was going to contact the meter installers. They have to make a return visit anyway. The energy providers have ceased trading.
regards
Roy
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there seem to be a lot of hits when you google smart meter trips rcd, it seems the rf when the meter tries to communicate to base causes the trip, have you got a new supplier yet, you could always ask them to come and fit a normal meter as the smart meter fitted is causing spurious supply outages.
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This is an interesting thread. We haven't had smart meters installed yet but I will bear what has been said when the time comes. A really useful 'heads up'.
Colin
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After reading all the replies I would say the 'not-so-smart' meter is causing tripping. Inform the installer, if you haven't already done so, and get them to put it right.
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until all the electricity suppliers agree on a meter they can all read, I am afraid I will be waiting, at the moment changing suppliers can mean they have to come and fit a new meter, as they dont all run compatible systems.
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Grendel,
I think you will find that when changing suppliers they cannot legally compel you to fit a smart meter athough they give you the impression thay can. I had a run in with Eon over this and they backed down although I am with Octopus now and they are not so pushy.
Colin
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Roy
Which RCD breaker is tripping, is it on the main incoming or just in your mains box..
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Energy suppliers can’t fit a smart meter at my home they haven’t got the technology to transmit a signal
from my cellar mounted electric meter to my gas meter above ground more than 10 metres away.
So I will keep my normal meter till they have the proper equipment for it to be read.
I will not be moving anything for their benefit.
John
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Grendel,
I think you will find that when changing suppliers they cannot legally compel you to fit a smart meter athough they give you the impression thay can. I had a run in with Eon over this and they backed down although I am with Octopus now and they are not so pushy.
Colin
Thanks Colin, yes I did know this, but if you have had a smart meter previously fitted they cannot all access the systems used to read that meter, as they use incompatible systems, they have to replace the existing smart meter with one they can read.- or as you rightly state, you can ask for a traditional meter to be fitted. I was only put on a smart meter for my water because the meter was outside of my property.
My sister was put on a smart meter for water, despite having been told that as its a shared main and the tee was under her property it couldnt be done, the workmen ignored this and fitted one anyway, and they had to come back and remove it, because they could not meter two properties on a shared main accurately, ie there was no way to determine how much each property was using, so it has to be calculated the old way.
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Hi grendal I think perhaps you have some old information there and thinking of the Mk. 1 meters. The Mk.2 meters can change the number they respond to. Someone told me it was a sim card as in mobile phones.
Hi Steamboat, we (St. Albans MES) used to have adjoining exhibition positions at Ally Pally.
The trip that goes is on the consumer unit in my house, even though the RCD to my shed does not trip. It is a daily occurance. I have one more check to make and that is to unplug the shed and plug in the extension lead to my band saw. This should isolate one or the other. Have another read of my two original posts the detail is in there.
When I have done the above I will contact the installers. They are a company called Lowri Beck. Their customer service system was very good so no quibbles with them.
Best regards
Roy
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Hi all we have just had smart meters installed. I now find the feed to my garage trips out. This also has an RSD controlled extension cable that goes to my workshop. Maximum load is 500 watts with heater on, otherwise just lighting etc.
I isloated the workshop by unplugging it, and it does not trip. The workshop is about 50 feet away from the outlet in the garage. The wiring is 13 amp flexible cable. The oil filled radiator in the workshop is set to come on when temperature falls below 5 or 6 centigrade. It is possible the trip happens when the heater comes on, I do not know.
But I have been in the shed and switched the heater on and off without any problem.
I reconnected the shed and it is OK but sometime later the house trip goes. I reset the trip in the house and the power goes on in the shed. So the RSD trip in the garage wiring to the shed did not trip out.
This has all been working for the last 10 years without any problems.
Are there any issues with the new type electricity meters?
My next move was to eliminate the RSD in the wiring to the shed but not sure this will be effective.
I welcome any ideas on what is wrong.
Best regards
Roy
Look up polarization index test (https://www.google.com/search?&q=Polarization+Index+Test) and condensation in the morning (which destroyed coal board high voltage equipment if switched off).When an old and failing heater element has been off for a while ( first thing in the morning) the insulation can be conductive enough to trip a sensitive rcd. That event reduces conductivity such that it doesn't trip if powered up soon after.
The unsafe diagnostic, where you can't operate or touch the heater, is to disconnect the earth and wait for the (smart) meter to trigger it.
So test the heater element.
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I get nuisance tripping in my shed from my Record sawdust vac only when I turn it off . I is back generated as the motor slows down I think it is EMF I live with it, might be wrong but if I change the trip to a different type B to C or C to B that will cure it ,Not 100% on this so will leave it until the next time the sparky drops by.
David
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Hi micro... the heater is not an ancient one, it is modern but is 5 or 6 years old. It was replaced with a more powerful one.
It is a 500 watt oil filled radiator and quite safe to use. I checked it over before it went on duty in my workshop. which is dry insulated and double glazed. Not a hint of condesation anywhere. When warm a pleasant place to be even with the snow on the roof.
regards
Roy
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Hi roycv,If you keep having mysterious and undiagnosed trip events I would consider the heater, not the (smart) meter, as the culprit until tests prove what it is the cause.
The 50 ft cable is also a factor.
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Hi all, thank you very much for your interest and responses. It is on-going as an investigation so nothing yet is showing as causing the problem.
Micro...I have been in the workshop and repeatedly turned the heater on and off without tripping. Also the RCD for the workshop does not trip when the consumer unit one does.
However their seems to be evidence on-line that this is not an unknown problem with the installation of new smart meters.
When at work I used to do complex investigations into computer peripheral failures in companies so used to a bit of logic.
I am thinking that I need to review what I think are facts, as I do not know what time and which event causes the consumer unit trips. Last night nothing tripped! The workshop was warm so must have been on and off all night.
I will keep you informed as to the outcome. The truth is out there some where!
Kind Regards
Roy
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Hi all, thank you very much for your interest and responses. It is on-going as an investigation so nothing yet is showing as causing the problem.
Micro...I have been in the workshop and repeatedly turned the heater on and off without tripping. Also the RCD for the workshop does not trip when the consumer unit one does.
However their seems to be evidence on-line that this is not an unknown problem with the installation of new smart meters.
When at work I used to do complex investigations into computer peripheral failures in companies so used to a bit of logic.
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Hi Roy,I hear you on new heater, & absence of trips turning it on/off & problems arose only after the new smart meter.
To me, the weight of evidence is on the heater on the end of a long trailing extension nuisance tripping a sensitive rcd.
That's where to start digging.
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Hi guys have been watching this and have ask how many of your are qualified electricians? The information you have given may help to solve the problem but we are not talking about low voltage we are trying to find a fault on mains electric which can kill. Surely the use of a electrician with all the proper test equipment would be the correct way to proceed. Please do not shoot me down with this reply.
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Hi as Stan says please contact a qualified electrician. As a retired electrical / mechanical engineer I cannot stress
the importance of using a tradesman with sorting out these types of faults, before using extension leads have the job
properly rewired to the up to date wiring regs. If your shed burns down an insurance company won’t pay you a penny.
An extension lead is not the way to go.if you don’t like my comment I’m sorry but diy electricians worry me.
John
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Hi thank you for the advice.
When I was at work on one occasion I was explaining to the company electrician (Glaxo laborotories Computer centre), showing him the wiring drawings, what we would be doing to the Motor / alternator 3 phase system supplying the computer room. The controls that were stuck in delta mode and welded solid how we suspected a particular relay as not working and causing the problem. He looked at us for a minute and said he would be in his office if we needed any tea.
I know where every wire goes in my house and wired up all the downstairs lighting myself. I am very conscious of fire risks and have got rid of all of my halogen lamps as I think they run dangerously hot and gone over to LED lighting.
I have worked around 3 phase and single phase mains for all of my working life. I also know when to step away and let a professional take over.
I have designed control systems inside a small steam boiler switching mains power through solid state mains relays to heater and pumps using digital technology. Used in a well known but old name supermarket 90 odd of them were made and not one unit ever failed. Each unit had a serial number with a history of the build in a reference book.
I do not see that an extension lead and a RCD unit are going to be beyond my ability to resolve.
I know your intentions are of the best but I thought I better give you some background. I do appreciate all the input which has now got even more complex.
The installers who never finished the installation saying they needed to return to fit something else are no longer employed by the energy company I am with. EDF energy when I phoned them said they were too busy to answer the phone.
On the plus side we have energy supplies I took meter readings and I shall relax and see how they wish to use the slighly-not-quite-installed smart meters in the future.
For others I have unplugged the radiator and will see if the consumer unit still trips just on the garage supply.
Regards to all
Roy
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Very much electrical work comes under the heading of "competent person" These days its against the grain to work on anything live and only an idiot or an expert would do this, the latter in special circumstances. Personally I never thought for a moment that you were incompetent Roy :-))
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HI Roy thank you for explaining your working life you seem more the qualified to fix the problem. I did mean any offence with my replies I was just pointing out the dangers of working with electrics but I did not know your background.
Stan.
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I would like to add that there is nothing wrong with using a fit for purpose RCD protected extension lead to feed outdoors anymore than the tens of thousands of caravan motorhome and yacht hook ups world wide that don't catch fire.
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Reading this I have a thought. Most installed kit, like smart meters is hardwired. It could very well have a high leakage current, in excess of 3.5mA. If this is the case then your RCD will be 30mA, so the breaker maybe running closer to the the limit of 30mA with the smart meter installed. The heater may just push it over the limit.
I've seen this in computer rooms where some idiot electrician has installed an RCD and everyone is wondering why you're getting nuisance tripping.
You need a sparks on site with a PAT tester & a RCD test meter. My gut feeling is you have something in the house that's a bit leaky, Ovens & freezers are favourite. The leak isn't enough to trip the RCD but possibly puts it close.
PS LOL at the competent person bit! I have seen some true horrors from competent people, even signed off as Part P.
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Many competent persons have more experience than the idiot electricians you speak of. Tar & Brush are very different strokes.
It's most likely that the idiot electrician installed what he was told to do by an idiot engineer.
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Hi tr7v8 thanks for that I will bear that in mind.
Hi Stan no offence taken I was an old style computer systems teckie where you never knew how the next peripheral would work. I used to get sent on the obscure equipment courses, you name it I've seen it.
I would not dream of questioning a Qualified technician, it is the also rans one has sometimes to wonder about. I recall the bad old days of the print unions when they tried to take charge of an extremely well known company's computer maintenance. (think Rupert M). I had fun thwarting them by going along with them, showing them the detail, offering to arrange the courses but when they saw what was involved they just faded away.
Many years ago I sat quietly in a Marks and Spencers store working out how to set up a a check out to read bar codes. No one had heard of them before. I was lucky to have been around when the accepted norms of today were still being worked out. Main thing was that it was all enjoyable and I worked for several good managers.
I have always regarded the members of this forum with the respect they are due for ability to make and produce such great models. Some declare their beginners status, even braver! There are no trolls here.
But behind the research and interest there is always the enquiring mind and this was why I posted my problem where I knew I would find some good thinkers.
regards to you all
Roy
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Hi tr7v8 thanks for that I will bear that in mind.
Hi Stan no offence taken I was an old style computer systems teckie where you never knew how the next peripheral would work. I used to get sent on the obscure equipment courses, you name it I've seen it.
I would not dream of questioning a Qualified technician, it is the also rans one has sometimes to wonder about. I recall the bad old days of the print unions when they tried to take charge of an extremely well known company's computer maintenance. (think Rupert M). I had fun thwarting them by going along with them, showing them the detail, offering to arrange the courses but when they saw what was involved they just faded away.
Roy sounds like we have similar backgrounds. I was a Senior Digital Equipment Company Engineer (DEC) for a long while. Also trained on some obscure stuff, was a Tape & disk & printer specialist for a lot of it.
Been there with print unions & others. Major supermarket chain was one. I trained 3 teams over a two day course each. They were like rabbits in the headlights.
As for the dodgy installs both were by qualified sparks. One was in this house where they'd drilled through a cable cover & into the cable for a rawlplug. The other was at a customer where we discovered they'd wired the ring to the 6Amp breaker & the 32Amp breaker circuit to low power loop.
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Morning, this may help.
An RCD works by monitoring any current flow to earth, its cumulative, so each circuit may have a small leak which is no major problem but they all add up and cause the board RCD trip. Heaters, PC power supplies, cooker rings are all prime suspects. It is now possible to replace normal MCB's with ones that contain an RCD as well (called an RCBO), so each circuit is individually protected as opposed to one RCD that protects the whole board. This is what I did. Just my thoughts and experience.
https://www.screwfix.com/p/wylex-32a-30ma-sp-type-b-rcbo/39356 (https://www.screwfix.com/p/wylex-32a-30ma-sp-type-b-rcbo/39356)
Paul
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as a response to Stan, while I dont qualify as a competent person to do electrical installation, I am an assitant design engineer working for an electrical infrastructure provider ( we design what the electrician installs) as such I am aware of the theory and practice behind the electricity supply.
RCD's are designed to protect the human in the circuit, if you touch a live cable then enough residual current will be transmitted back to trip the panel, but the further you go from the panel - eg on an extension to the shed or garage, the less likely the possibility to trip. the rcd local to the device should trip first as this will see the residual current first, this tends to point the trip
source away from the remote heater as that has its own local RCD, which should trip first.
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Roy, I have a test plug that i purchased at lidls, you plug it in and it tells you if the socket is wired correctly, i mention this because another feature is an rcd testbutton, i was theorising if you had one of these you could plug it in where the heater plugs in and press the test button, if the local rcd trips rather than the main one you will have proved the trip doesnt originate in your workshop
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Hi grendel, so far the consumer unit has not tripped. I will give it another day and then take the previous convector heater to the workshop and plug that in.
Thanks for the continuing interest.
Roy
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I have a similar setup, my workshop is fed from a socket at the closest point in the house, i have an rcd unit plugged into the socket, then the workshop plugged into that, a while back I had the one tripping when I used a certain grinder, it turned out the earth pin had come disconnected in the plug for that, so it was tripping out the local rcd. this was when asking questions of my senior designers I found out about the distance being a factor in whether something will trip an rcd.
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Roy, I have a test plug that i purchased at lidls, you plug it in and it tells you if the socket is wired correctly, i mention this because another feature is an rcd testbutton...
That is the same, basic pass/fail function as a 35 year old metrohm rccb tester with 4 test current settings.
If already wired correctly and to to be tested once , he may as well use resistors like Big Clive on youtube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTUUijDclWk&t=8m)You have to be careful with mains voltage and quick as the resistor power loss is beyond the one or two watt continuous rating.
A 30mA AC RCD trip point is 27mA to 30mA.
Leakage measurement
The test rig in the youtube video has one turn and a clamp meter with a high sensitivity range but there is nothing to stop you coiling the earth loop into 20 spaced turns to get a reading with a normal, low sensitivity clamp meter.
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In any system with more than one RDC in series, there will always be a winner that trips first. Once the offending bit has been isolated the other will have no cause to trip.
RCDs can't directly measure the leakage current, they can only compare the current going one way on live with the current coming back via neutral. The basic assumption is that whatever difference is leakage to ground.
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Hi to all my fellow investigators. With no heater connected it has not tripped. I have this morning put the old covector heater 2KW in place to see what happens but the workshop is nice and warm now! I checked the other heater's 13 amp plug and all connections tight and no whiskers of wire.
I have left the lights on as a tell to see if it all remains working.
I am learning more about RCD's from your posts so thanks.for the input.
Regards
Roy
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Hi all, the investigation has been going on so that now I can say all the wiring involved and the additional RCD leading out to the workshop are all working.
I have had another heater in use and all OK.
This morning I connected in the usual oil filled radiator and there was a burning smell. So I brought it into the house let it cool down and then opened it up to reveal the electrics.
Oh Woe!
There is a chocolate box connector which may have developed a poor connection and caused heat from which there was a meltdown. Just charred plastic and most of it gone. This must have been going on for a while well before my Smart meters were fitted. The mess was 'dug' out and the choc box connector replaced, wires cut back, and is being tested in my presence to make sure there was nothing else.
So well done to the trip! May have saved the workshop from damage.
When confident I shall restore it into use. Logically there was only ever one issue and that was the heater, the RCD trip just did its job.
Thank you to all contributors I learnt a lot and I hope all is now resolved.
Best regards
Roy