Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Navy - Military - Battleships: => Topic started by: Simmerit on August 15, 2022, 02:45:00 pm
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I am a modeller, but tend to focus on things that fly and things that go bang in 1/32nd and 1/35th, so this is a venture into the unknown for me and I've picked not an insignificant one as my first build! at 65" with a 10.5" beam, she's absolutely mahoosive, and the mrs needs a bigger piano - on the subject of which, she's not happy about the build.
A bit of history on Dreadnought before I talk about the kit. Dreadnought was laid down in 1906. She made the naval fleet of every nation redundant overnight, and her name became the de facto name describing capital ships the world over. The demise of the battleship at the end of WW2 saw the demise of the name Dreadnought, which sadly was consigned to the pages of history. Something military strategists are currently debating with the tank, or land ship as it was called when it saw battle for the first time in the battle of Flers-Courcelette in 1916. Dreadnought saw the development of a new class of battleship, and ships laid down down 1906 to the late 1920s were some of the most beautiful warships to grace the sea - British capital ships I mean. Clearly.
Redundant by 1914, Dreadnought lays claim to being the only battle ship to sink a submarine, ramming the unfortunate U29. She was paid off in March 1920 for the princely sum of £44,750, having cost an eye watering £1,785,683 to build, which at our current rates of inflation, just about buys a gallon on petrol in the UK..... She was broken up in 1923 and all that survives from her is a gun tampion which is in the National Maritime Museum.
The kit
I've had the kit for about 10 years, having picked it up an waltBay for about 180 sheets, which is a bit of a bargain considering this is the best part of 800 sheets new. It's lay in one of the stables since purchase. I bought it off an old lad who purchased it just after release. He planned to build it but concluded that is was too big and he was too fragile to launch it. I picked it up in Manchester and brought it home to Hertfordshire which is where it now resides. The mrs came with me and wasn't happy about that either. You may be spotting a bit of a trend where the mrs and boats is concerned - unless is a 20 footer with a 300hp outboard on it and its in the Bahamas!
The kit is showing its age in an era of 3D printing with a number of the fixtures and fitting probably heading for replacement. Most of the kit is there, but some bits are missing like the shafts and screws. The lad that bought it also made a start of it, starting to fit out the interior of the hull, having not bothered to read the instructions........ He's used enough resin to mean the model wont need any ballast, so I'm hoping when I get round to test fitting the shafts, I wont have to reach for a dremel to try and cut out the sheet of ply thats stuck down in the hull.
One or two other issues with the kit which are age related - ply decks are warped and will need replacing, and will most of the wood looking at it, so my first step is to buy a sheet of marine ply and some obeche and balsa strip. I have a copy of the Anatomy of the Dreadnought which looks like a great help and the National Maritime Museum is a long tube ride away if I need to do any research. My plan is to build a working model that's as near as museum quality that I can get it.
Turrets look OK, but the guns need something doing with them. I may look at getting a brass set turned if I can find someone to do it for me.
The build
OK so I'm a novice, but I am a modeller. I know absolutely nothing about boaty things, so will be looking for advice and help/guidance. I need to get hold of running gear - props, prop shafts and the A thinggies that support the shafts, and I want the to be as historically as accurate as possible. Anyone point me in the direction of where to pick em up and what I need? In other words HELLLPPPPPPPP!
Other thing is couplings and motors. I'll need 4 of each. I dont want a ship that does 70 knots, so any recommendations much appreciated.
As the say in the infantry 'wait out' and 'awaits incoming'. I look forward to a few pointers from you lot.
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Ask this bloke, he's on here as RAFlaunches.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BTula4VBm8&t=1s
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He's used enough resin to mean the model wont need any ballast, so I'm hoping when I get round to test fitting the shafts, I wont have to reach for a dremel to try and cut out the sheet of ply thats stuck down in the hull.
Nah, won't need the Dremel, a jackhammer, yes, Dremel no.
That you have long experience modeling will do you well. Remember, no need to stress, is just like a regular scale model except for that it is bigger, it weighs more, it goes, and it can sink. Kind of like the 1970s when Tamiya had motors in their tanks. (their M10 and M36 would actually float with air trapped under upper hull and cross the deeper puddles on track propulsion. Yes, the little Mabuchi motors survived that with careful drying out)
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Hi Simon
As Martin has already mentioned I’m that bloke raflaunches :}
I built a Dean’s Marine Dreadnought between 2016 and 2017 as she appeared in 1916 post refit (the one that caused her to miss Jutland). The kit is an excellent base to add extra detail to, the basic kit looks pretty good too. I will suggest that you may wish to add another book to your collection for research purposes as this book helps you give a 3D view of the ship in colour:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Battleship-HMS-Dreadnought-Super-Drawings/dp/8362878681/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?crid=2YJAZUMPWE3C2&keywords=3d+super+drawings+Dreadnought&qid=1660594792&sprefix=3d+super+drawings+dreadnought+%2Caps%2C68&sr=8-1 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Battleship-HMS-Dreadnought-Super-Drawings/dp/8362878681/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?crid=2YJAZUMPWE3C2&keywords=3d+super+drawings+Dreadnought&qid=1660594792&sprefix=3d+super+drawings+dreadnought+%2Caps%2C68&sr=8-1)
For motors you will need something with some power as battleship models tend to be heavy- my Dreadnought has three 12v sealed lead acid batteries not only has ballast but has power supply. For motors I suggest getting four 550 or bigger (but no bigger than 750) to drive your props. You will need to stagger the motors slightly so your propshafts, couplings and motors are as straight as possible. You can find couplings from various sources depending on your prop shaft diameter, I buy mine from SHG on eBay but you can get metal versions from Prop Shop who I also recommend replacing your props with. They are cast bronze and are beautifully cast and provide some extra power. You need power not only to move the model when fully ballasted but also to stop said model. They really do act like real displacement hulls requiring forward thinking when sailing and the extra power to slam on the brakes is sometimes a massive help!
I also have a 1/96 scale Invincible as she appeared in 1914 and in progress a Glorious as she appeared in 1917 as a large light cruiser (a battlecruiser in disguise!). I used two car heater motors driving belts to two prop shafts so all four shafts were powered by only two motors on Invincible but on Glorious which was narrower my Dad and I used four 750 motors.
Hopefully Geoff Dixon sees this thread as he builds from this era too- he has Iron Duke and Invincible in 1/96 with firing guns. They are truly spectacular models.
Hope this helps and ask if you would like more information.
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Hi SimonR;
I am also a RC modeller and especially have enjoyed RC planes for a long time,though lost flying field unfortunately about a decade ago. Therefore I have flown down to the surface already,RC boats/ships ,cars/tanks.! O0 :embarrassed: {:-{
For the above reason,I like plane and boat/ship so that I have selected/gone to the aircraft carrier 1/96 Deans Marine as
my first and last large model ship to be able to run on the large lake as in the pic below.
The carrier model was complete at my age of 70 after getting it a few years before 60.!! {-) {-) :-))
Your HMS Dreadnought is a big model as your first build so that I do expect you to do the best efforts to gain a superb result
of RC battleship.The real Dreadnought was very famous even in Japan in those days and affected very much to those concerned with the Imperial Japan Navy and naval arsenal very very much.AS all the Japanese existing main battleships
became immediately old-fashioned by the commission of the new sooo powerful and fast battleship.!!! :o :o <:( :} {-)
I want to see your HMS Dreadnought sailing magnificently on the water in the future.!!!! :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-))
Kiyo
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Nah, won't need the Dremel, a jackhammer, yes, Dremel no.
That you have long experience modeling will do you well. Remember, no need to stress, is just like a regular scale model except for that it is bigger, it weighs more, it goes, and it can sink. Kind of like the 1970s when Tamiya had motors in their tanks. (their M10 and M36 would actually float with air trapped under upper hull and cross the deeper puddles on track propulsion. Yes, the little Mabuchi motors survived that with careful drying out)
That's where I' at with it, but the world of R/C boats an ships is a completely different world to armour and planes! Different language, different retailers and a bit of a mystery to me!
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Hi Simon
As Martin has already mentioned I’m that bloke raflaunches :}
I built a Dean’s Marine Dreadnought between 2016 and 2017 as she appeared in 1916 post refit (the one that caused her to miss Jutland). The kit is an excellent base to add extra detail to, the basic kit looks pretty good too. I will suggest that you may wish to add another book to your collection for research purposes as this book helps you give a 3D view of the ship in colour:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Battleship-HMS-Dreadnought-Super-Drawings/dp/8362878681/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?crid=2YJAZUMPWE3C2&keywords=3d+super+drawings+Dreadnought&qid=1660594792&sprefix=3d+super+drawings+dreadnought+%2Caps%2C68&sr=8-1 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Battleship-HMS-Dreadnought-Super-Drawings/dp/8362878681/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?crid=2YJAZUMPWE3C2&keywords=3d+super+drawings+Dreadnought&qid=1660594792&sprefix=3d+super+drawings+dreadnought+%2Caps%2C68&sr=8-1)
For motors you will need something with some power as battleship models tend to be heavy- my Dreadnought has three 12v sealed lead acid batteries not only has ballast but has power supply. For motors I suggest getting four 550 or bigger (but no bigger than 750) to drive your props. You will need to stagger the motors slightly so your propshafts, couplings and motors are as straight as possible. You can find couplings from various sources depending on your prop shaft diameter, I buy mine from SHG on eBay but you can get metal versions from Prop Shop who I also recommend replacing your props with. They are cast bronze and are beautifully cast and provide some extra power. You need power not only to move the model when fully ballasted but also to stop said model. They really do act like real displacement hulls requiring forward thinking when sailing and the extra power to slam on the brakes is sometimes a massive help!
I also have a 1/96 scale Invincible as she appeared in 1914 and in progress a Glorious as she appeared in 1917 as a large light cruiser (a battlecruiser in disguise!). I used two car heater motors driving belts to two prop shafts so all four shafts were powered by only two motors on Invincible but on Glorious which was narrower my Dad and I used four 750 motors.
Hopefully Geoff Dixon sees this thread as he builds from this era too- he has Iron Duke and Invincible in 1/96 with firing guns. They are truly spectacular models.
Hope this helps and ask if you would like more information.
Thanks for the post, and the advice - most appreciated. I also had a crack at both ships about 30 odd years ago but never got beyond early stages. I used plans from Map Plans. Invincible was a beautiful cruiser but woefully under armoured. The compromise made by the Admiralty cost a lot of lives at Jutland. I dug these snaps out.
The ex Mrs binned Dreadnought, which was shame. A bit of work and it could have turned out quite nice - I built it for one of my lads. It never sailed. Invincible was in the 'stand-off scale' section of Map Plans - not great below the waterline. Its moulding in my stables at the moment and needs to go on a funeral pyre really.
Quick bit of further advice if I may. What prop shafts would you use? The kit prop shafts are long gone. Alos what do you think of the kit A-frames for the prop shafts? Would you recommend using something else?
Cheers
Si
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Ask this bloke, he's on here as RAFlaunches.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BTula4VBm8&t=1s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BTula4VBm8&t=1s)
I dont seem to be able to post pictures. is that because I'm a newly registered user on the site?
Cheers
Si
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Welcome Simon, and wow! Really impressed with your first bash at ship modelling. As you probably realise, this will not be a short job, but there is plentiful expertise and support here, and I am sure you will get a regular following if you post the build here.
As for posting pictures, that is a regular bete noire for new members (and quite a lot of old ones too!) but it is straightforward once you get the hang of it. The images need to be made smaller to add to your post and one way is to use an image processing software package, most of which allow you to save a smaller version of your original image. These can then be added to your post. An alternative is to use an image hosting site so you can paste an address for each image in your post and it will appear irrespective of size. Mayhem maintians its own hosting site here (https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/)- download your images there and they can be referenced in your post (if you need more detailed instructions on that, just shout).
Happy modelling
Greg
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I dont seem to be able to post pictures. is that because I'm a newly registered user on the site?
Cheers
Si
Have a look at: https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,61103.msg719443.html#msg719443
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I use Microsoft office 2010 picture manager as it came with the office suite of programs :-))
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Right. I think I've mastered the photos..
One of Dreadnought as it is at the moment. I've basically not managed to order anything yet as I've had a frantic week since getting back from holiday
One of the two I had a go at in my younger days. Invincible wants to go on a funeral pyre and sadly the first Mrs R binned the unfinished scratch build
I'm hoping this works - I'm on a Mac....
Nope. That didnt work!
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Sorry for the delay in answering your questions-
You can get prop shafts made by various companies but if you want purpose made ones I recommend PropShop. Tell them your measurements of tube and exposed shaft and they will be able to make a set up for you.
If I remember the A-frames from the kit are white metal and on the original kit shafts are to support the fully encased shafts- if you want exposed shafts you will have to replace them- PropShop do them too.
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Sorry for the delay in answering your questions-
You can get prop shafts made by various companies but if you want purpose made ones I recommend PropShop. Tell them your measurements of tube and exposed shaft and they will be able to make a set up for you.
If I remember the A-frames from the kit are white metal and on the original kit shafts are to support the fully encased shafts- if you want exposed shafts you will have to replace them- PropShop do them too.
Thank you. I will get the bits ordered now.
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Simon's photos...
(https://i.postimg.cc/GTYCF5wJ/IMG-3401.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/GTYCF5wJ)
(https://i.postimg.cc/gX1p6P52/IMG-3402.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/gX1p6P52)
(https://i.postimg.cc/rztM2K00/one.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/rztM2K00)
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Thank Martin.
I've got hold os Simon at Propshop and exchanged beer tokens. 4 shafts, props, A frames and couplings should be with me in a week to ten days :} He's a seasoned veteran where running gear for Deans Marine Dreadnought is concerned. Cant think who would have been there already!
Portholes. I need portholes. Any guidance on which ones to obtain would be much appreciated!
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Portholes. I need portholes. Any guidance on which ones to obtain would be much appreciated!
What size do you need? Diameter?
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Do you want them with scuttles on?
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Do you want them with scuttles on?
i'm deffo not an expert at this! The holes I need to drill are 4mm, so the inside of the porthole facing the hull needs a 4mm o/d to fit in the hole. As for scuttles? No idea what was on the real thing, which is where I'm hoping to get to with this.
On the progress front, not done anything at all as I'm awaiting the running gear from Simon at Prop Shop, which should be here next week - he said said a week to do the prop shafts. If thing progress at this rate, I'll be starting the superstructure!
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Do you want them with scuttles on?
Looking at some photos close up, they look like scuttles rather than portholes, now that I know what a scuttle is!
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I always took the curved gutters above the portholes to be the scuttles.
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To throw a spanner <*< ....Coaling Scuttles in steam tugs and smaller steam warships were [usually] a bronze removable disks in the deck, able to be semi-rotated & lifted out to allow coal to be shoveled into the coal bunkers [example image below]
Coal Scuttles on the Queens were larger square doors in the side of the hull, to be opened only in port for coaling purposes, directly into the coal bunkers
There is a video of the SS Alaska [the one with Queen Elizabeth on board reviewing an event]....[Salter Bros]......
https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=1bf1eaaa84d93daaJmltdHM9MTY2MzAyNzIwMCZpZ3VpZD0xYTRmYWU1MS05Yzk0LTZiNDUtMjQyOS1iZmFjOWRhNjZhNmImaW5zaWQ9NTI5Nw&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=1a4fae51-9c94-6b45-2429-bfac9da66a6b&u=a1aHR0cDovL3NpbXBsb25wYy5jby51ay9BbGFza2EuaHRtbA&ntb=1 (https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=1bf1eaaa84d93daaJmltdHM9MTY2MzAyNzIwMCZpZ3VpZD0xYTRmYWU1MS05Yzk0LTZiNDUtMjQyOS1iZmFjOWRhNjZhNmImaW5zaWQ9NTI5Nw&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=1a4fae51-9c94-6b45-2429-bfac9da66a6b&u=a1aHR0cDovL3NpbXBsb25wYy5jby51ay9BbGFza2EuaHRtbA&ntb=1)
Pretty sure they open a fuel scuttle [bronze removable disk] in the deck,........to load waste wood mass fuel pellets....
Derek
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A “scuttle” is the generic naval term for a porthole; the half round gutter above the scuttle is an “eyebrow”, there are lots of those to make.
To make the “scuttles” there are two ways of doing it 1) spend lots of time cutting expensive brass tubing to the correct length or 2) just drill the hole to the right size and fill with clear glue (UHU?) and fill using a cocktail stick but do make sure that you have closed the back of the hole off or you will end up with a sticky mess inside the hull.
I would also advise that you do not purchase the ships drawings or any book that has any detail images of the propeller shafts, brackets, and rudders of capital ships of this period, just make do with what you have, otherwise you may end up with a nervous breakdown.
LB
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A “scuttle” is the generic naval term for a porthole; the half round gutter above the scuttle is an “eyebrow”, there are lots of those to make.
To make the “scuttles” there are two ways of doing it 1) spend lots of time cutting expensive brass tubing to the correct length or 2) just drill the hole to the right size and fill with clear glue (UHU?) and fill using a cocktail stick but do make sure that you have closed the back of the hole off or you will end up with a sticky mess inside the hull.
I would also advise that you do not purchase the ships drawings or any book that has any detail images of the propeller shafts, brackets, and rudders of capital ships of this period, just make do with what you have, otherwise you may end up with a nervous breakdown.
LB
Good advice re the shafts, A-frames and rudders. Mine should turn up on Friday from Simon at Prop Shop. Woo hoo!
I'm not sure what I'm going to do about the scuttles and eyebrows yet. I did come across a sheet of 1/96th etch eyebrows but didnt note the URL. Damn! Hopefully the power of Google will sort that.
On the scuttles, I've got to drill 4mm hols in the hull. There are plenty of brass portholes available, but they all have raised outer rings, and looking at the piccies I've seen of Dreadnought, the scuttles are not proud on the hull, so the ones I've seen don't look suitable. I do need to do a bit of proper research but I'm a bit mental with work at the minute, so havent been able to make the time to do some reading.
I also wonder if there are any of the original ship builders models at the Maritime Museum from the same period as Dreadnought. If there are any on display, a tootle into London may be called for to recce the models. I'm only 30 minutes out of the City, so its eminently do-able for me. Funny the thinsg we get obsessed about, and I havent even started the bloody thing yet!
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Hi Simon, have you had a look here :-
https://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/cgi-bin/bb000001.pl?PRODUCTPAGE=caldercraft_fittings.html
Other sizes available. :-)
Ray.
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I also wonder if there are any of the original ship builders models at the Maritime Museum from the same period as Dreadnought.
Unfortunately museums don't much like to exhibit models these days. , :((
There used to be lots of models which were really useful for detail information but most of them are now in long term storage.
Colin
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Unfortunately museums don't much like to exhibit models these days. , :((
There used to be lots of models which were really useful for detail information but most of them are now in long term storage.
Colin
Looks like I'm off to the IWM and science museum then! Thanks for that - really helpful!!
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You may have misread me, the models are no longer on display except for a small selection. The NMM and IWM collections habe been moved to the Chatham Dockyard repository while the Science Museum ones have gone into storage, initially in North London I think and are being transferred to the National Collections Centre near Swindon.
The models at Chatham can be viewed by appointment, I don't know about the Science Museum models.
The National Museum of the Royal Navy has a large collection of warship models which were last on special display in 2009 and are stored somewhere at Portsmouth Dockyard.
Colin
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Alan, you may have misread me, the models are no longer on display except for a small selection. The NMM and IWM collections habe been moved to the Chatham Dockyard repository while the Science Museum ones have gone into storage, initially in North London I think and are being transferred to the National Collections Centre near Swindon.
The models at Chatham can be viewed by appointment, I don't know about the Science Museum models.
The National Museum of the Royal Navy has a large collection of warship models which were last on special display in 2009 and are stored somewhere at Portsmouth Dockyard.
Colin
Yep - looks like I have - I went onto Google to check out what models are and which location and of course lots of info came back, apart from the fact that they were now not there!
What a shame they are gone. I'm from Sunderland originally and the museum in the Town Centre used to have a floor full of ships from the yards on the wear - naval and merchant. I wonder if they have also gone?
Looks like I've got my answer anyway, which is the scuttles/portholes are flush with the hull with no protruding surfaces. I've seen a few Dreadnoughts build with scuttles/portholes with bevelled edges on the brass, which are obviously wrong - some really nice builds as well, let down by lack of research. I've no doubt the builders would be gutted if they knew.
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I also wonder if there are any of the original ship builders models at the Maritime Museum from the same period as Dreadnought. If there are any on display, a tootle into London may be called for to recce the models. I'm only 30 minutes out of the City, so its eminently do-able for me. Funny the thinsg we get obsessed about, and I havent even started the bloody thing yet!
I think the majority of their ship models are in store at Chatham now, they only keep a few on display. Near empty cases and interactive displays ( that are often broken down) seem more important than historical artifacts. They can't overload the publics minds with information, their attention span is too short. Over the years I have seen too many museums go downhill pandering to the new standards. What used to be displays filled with objects now only a few with labels in small text only readable from a few feet away.
Jim
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Simon.....the issue of Ships Models being in long-term storage in Museums or the like, has disappointingly been the subject of many threads here on MBM and also other Forum groups over the years
The real issue is the Curators and Administrators of such facilities must bow to semi-Governmental purse strings in only providing exhibits of high patronage .......youngsters more and more on mass, are only interested in pressing a button to see the exhibit twist, shake, move or evolve into something else, usually with an interactive backdrop and increasingly with an electronic flavour
So the rooms of model ships [and steam] are gradually moved further and further from the front entrance, and finally to non-admission storage areas
To further complicate the issue is that many such models were bequeathed to Museums, so now the only growing interest and financial gain is the Solicitors and Legal fraternity contriving >>:-( how to eliminate such models from the Facilities inventory.........
Derek
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You may have better luck at some of the smaller museums such as the Barrow Dockyard museum or the maritme museum at Irvine, where they have or did have the builders model of HMS Barham. This museum is well worth visiting in its own right as there many intertesting exhibits to see.
LB
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I seem to recall there was also a museum in Glasgow which had models of Indomitable and Colossus but that was years ago so I'm no longer sure if they are on display.
To get back to portholes. I plate my models in plastic card with the holes already punched out before gluing the plate to the hull. The eyebrows are plastic strip wound round a mandrel and boiled and then cut into circles and again in half and glued with plastic solvent weld to the plates. The whole being painted and then punched out discs of smoked plastic are used for the glazing. It works pretty well.
I accept that this may not be a viable practice with Deans Dreadnought as I think the plates are already molded in place.
I would strongly suggest you make a jig to keep the portholes level as otherwise can can be a bit wavy!
Cheers
Geoff
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Well. A bit of progress. The lad that restored the ship builders model of HMS Hercules sent me these, which must be accurate if the ship builder did them
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and bless my soul - I can paste images!!!!!
Just ordered 27 of these which are eye wateringly expensive.....
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Just ordered 27 of these which are eye wateringly expensive.....
It's a beautiful looking bit of kit though Simon - will enhance your model no end.
Ray.
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It's a beautiful looking bit of kit though Simon - will enhance your model no end.
Ray.
Thanks Ray. There's quite a bit of 3D printed bits out there but its bloody expensive. I'm hoping these get passed the mrs............ before other parcels start to arrive :-)
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Well thats another 100 sheets gone....... and if you think that looks nice, you should see the 36" searchlights..... and then there's the ships boats...
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So here's taste of the searchlight and one of the ships boats - 32ft'er
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I think I'm going to have to invest in a 3D printer. I've just priced up the rest of the bits!!!!
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well. These are complete waste of money!
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Now I won't an Uber Scale Link, as I have a bunch of packets of their staircases and I love them, but yes some of their stuff is not as good as other products. I'd also say as a heads-up that their stanchions are a little too fragile for a working model.
Keep in mind that a 3D printer isn't like one of those Star-Trek replicators, you have to have good inputs to get good outputs. MicroMaster spent a lot of time and money pouring over plans and doing trial prints in order to deliver those spectacular fittings.
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Now I won't an Uber Scale Link, as I have a bunch of packets of their staircases and I love them, but yes some of their stuff is not as good as other products. I'd also say as a heads-up that their stanchions are a little too fragile for a working model.
Keep in mind that a 3D printer isn't like one of those Star-Trek replicators, you have to have good inputs to get good outputs. MicroMaster spent a lot of time and money pouring over plans and doing trial prints in order to deliver those spectacular fittings.
From what I've read of it so far, the CAD stuff is a hobby in its own right! If you look at the stuff MicroMaster are turning out, it looks like the person designing it is a professional. The searchlight is stunning.
Where I've got with it is I'm going to have a look at some CAD software and see how I get on. No point in investing in a 4k or 8k printer if I cant use the software.
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Well. A minor step forwards. Anchors arrived today. The guns are currently on a plane from New Zealand. Simon at Prop Shop is shipping the running gear!! Woo hoo!!
Anyway. Anchors. They are very nice.
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These arrived on Friday - thanks to Simon at Prop Shop. Great bit of work
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Also having a took at the Standard Lockers in John Roberts anatomy of Dreadnought. There are lockers in the fixtures and fittings supplied by Deans but they lack detail. I also dont see any of the flag lockers either. I'm thinking this may be the first bash with Fusion 360 which is the CAD package I'm planning to use if I have a crack at 3D printing - with the printer I've not got yet!
I couldn't locate a copy of the 3D Dreadnought book recommended by the lad who built one and Invincible, which is a shame as that could have come in handy. Here's a couple of piccies of the lockers I'm on about. There is a lot of detail missing with the kit.
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Not exactly lockers, but more access to the lower deck with a hoist to lift items in and out , the sides are like a bund wall and the door to prevent water over the bow flooding the lower deck, and it looks like one of them has square windows
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Not exactly lockers, but more access to the lower deck with a hoist to lift items in and out , the sides are like a bund wall and the door to prevent water over the bow flooding the lower deck, and it looks like one of them has square windows
Its a combination of lockers and access hatches I've got to do. Some of the hatches are set into the deck, and some sit on top of raised combing. My problem is I cant identify how many of what I need, and there is no schematic of the deck showing the layout of the lockers & hatches.
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I think you have to appreciate that model boat kits are always simplified compared with museum quality models. This is inevitable for commercial reasons. If every detail were to be included the kit would be financially unviable.
However, as long as the basic construction and detail is accurate, you can still add additional components to enhance the model but to do this you need to undertake extra research to identify the missing detail. Just how far you go with this is something you have to decide for yourself depending on the information available and the amount of work you wish to put in.
The options are limitless really.
Colin
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I think you have to appreciate that model boat kits are always simplified compared with museum quality models. This is inevitable for commercial reasons. If every detail were to be included the kit would be financially unviable.
However, as long as the basic construction and detail is accurate, you can still add additional components to enhance the model but to do this you need to undertake extra research to identify the missing detail. Just how far you go with this is something you have to decide for yourself depending on the information available and the amount of work you wish to put in.
The options are limitless really.
Colin
I've just been looking at 1/350 builds of the Dreadnought from 1907 and the kits have got a good level of detail - better than the 1/96 fittings set. The problem of course is with the models coming out of Russia (Zvesda) and China (Trumpter) and Poland (Eduard etch), you do find that these manufacturers have a tendency to make things up, so how reliable the plastic kits are is questionable.
More digging required
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I wouldn't rely on plastic kits. You need something like the Anatomy of the Ship Dreadnought by John Roberts. Available in various formats from a number of suppliers.
Colin
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I wouldn't rely on plastic kits. You need something like the Anatomy of the Ship Dreadnought by John Roberts. Available in various formats from a number of suppliers.
Colin
I've got it and there is no schematic of the entire deck. The 3D book is long out of print. There is a Russian Line drawing which is by all accounts accurate above the waterline, but I've not been able to locate a copy. Doesn't look like there are Admiralty plans available. I seem to be drawing a blank
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This is the only example I've been able to locate and I had to bring two images together to form the piccie. As you can see, they don't quite line up
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Located a better one!
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Depending on how much you want to spend you can get plans from the National Maritime Museum, Greenwich.
For example:
https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-54579 (https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-54579)
I got digital copies of the plan, profile and sections for my build of HMS Onslow - not cheap but if it's a long term project the cost is spread a bit. Good photographs are also essential as the plans do not always match the ship, and often include modifications drawn in different ink etc.
They require some interpretation, not drawn with modelmakers in mind (eg I find dimensions on different views don't quite match so you have to use some judgement to make it all fit).
The museum staff can help a bit in sorting out what they have in the archive, I suspect Dreadnought is well covered with multiple different views / time points but it's not always obvious what is shown.
Onslow is not my first build but if you're going for super accuracy the the model can only be as good as the reference material. I found this out the hard way trying to build HMS Kenya from what in hindsight were totally inadequate references...
Hope this helps. The main thing is enjoy the hobby
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Depending on how much you want to spend you can get plans from the National Maritime Museum, Greenwich.
For example:
https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-54579 (https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-54579)
I got digital copies of the plan, profile and sections for my build of HMS Onslow - not cheap but if it's a long term project the cost is spread a bit. Good photographs are also essential as the plans do not always match the ship, and often include modifications drawn in different ink etc.
They require some interpretation, not drawn with modelmakers in mind (eg I find dimensions on different views don't quite match so you have to use some judgement to make it all fit).
The museum staff can help a bit in sorting out what they have in the archive, I suspect Dreadnought is well covered with multiple different views / time points but it's not always obvious what is shown.
Onslow is not my first build but if you're going for super accuracy the the model can only be as good as the reference material. I found this out the hard way trying to build HMS Kenya from what in hindsight were totally inadequate references...
Hope this helps. The main thing is enjoy the hobby
Yup - seen thank you. They also have these assets
https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-54574 (https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-54574)
which is :
Scale: 1:192. Plan showing the profile, half plans for the upper deck, main deck, middle deck and lower deck, and sections at Stations A, B, C, D, E. and F illustrating the arrangement of armour on the battleship HMS Dreadnought (1906).
I've written to them and asked how I get hold of a copy and how much.
Since posting, one of the lads on the Army Rumour Service has located a copy of the 3D publication, which is now ordered.
Where I am at with this ship is its without a doubt one of my favourites (add Lion to that list and Invincible), so I'm in the space of its going to cost what its going to cost. Just dont tell the mrs I said that!
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Well the mrs has caught me. It was the 42 quid customs charge for the guns. They havent arrived yet and I'm just working out how to get the rest past her without being caught :o
Now someone mentioned 540 motors. Which ones would you go for an why?
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Hi
You said you weren’t impressed with the scale link eyebrows for the portholes, try these-
https://quaycraft.uk/product/port-holes-1-96-scale/ (https://quaycraft.uk/product/port-holes-1-96-scale/)
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Hi
You said you weren’t impressed with the scale link eyebrows for the portholes, try these-
https://quaycraft.uk/product/port-holes-1-96-scale/ (https://quaycraft.uk/product/port-holes-1-96-scale/)
Thank you but I think I'm going 3D with Micro Master.
Guns turn up today!! Woo hoo!
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I can not even begin to tell you how good these are
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There is progress, but no start on the build yet. I've just spent a small fortune on £D printed stuff for Dreadnought.
Fingers crossed the mrs doesnt get to it first!
Hopefully the order will land by the end of the month and I can commence work in November
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3D book arrives from CA, USA! Just waiting for my big order from New Zealand!!
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I've been waiting for the resup and it has arrived all the way from sunny New Zealand. I'm a searchlight short (forgot to order) >>:-(
I'm now just about ready to make a start on the build
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quick comparison with the 3D drawings
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3D printing has really saved a lot of time reproducing the details. Pity you can't get a rebate for all the scrap plastic fastened to them. It can be regranulated and extruded.
Regards Ian
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3D printing has really saved a lot of time reproducing the details. Pity you can't get a rebate for all the scrap plastic fastened to them. It can be regranulated and extruded.
Regards Ian
The stuff that's turned up is stunning. God know what I'm going to do about the other bits I need as anything else that goes on it cant be of a lower standard than the stuff that's come through from New Zealand
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Yes, it is amazing stuff, you can asemble your own kit from it but the total cost must be eye watering.
Colin
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3D printing has really saved a lot of time reproducing the details. Pity you can't get a rebate for all the scrap plastic fastened to them. It can be regranulated and extruded.
Regards Ian
These appear to have been printed using a photosensitive resin to give the sharp detail. Once cured with UV light the resin is basically thermosetting so can't be melted, therefore no use in an extruder. The only possible problem with these supports is that normally they are removed before the outside is finally fully cured, otherwise they may leave an imprint where they attach. It might be a good idea to put the fittings in hot water before removing the supports as this can help.
Jim
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Yes, it is amazing stuff, you can asemble your own kit from it but the total cost must be eye watering.
Colin
Eye watering is not an unreason word to describe it!!!!
Sets personal reminder 'I must take a look at the parts trays that came with the kit and see what I can use'.......
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These appear to have been printed using a photosensitive resin to give the sharp detail. Once cured with UV light the resin is basically thermosetting so can't be melted, therefore no use in an extruder. The only possible problem with these supports is that normally they are removed before the outside is finally fully cured, otherwise they may leave an imprint where they attach. It might be a good idea to put the fittings in hot water before removing the supports as this can help.
Jim
Thank you for the tip. Will give it a go.
Cheers
Si
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Just ordered new 4mm ply for the decks and the decks that came with the kit are quite badly warped.
Now about these motors. I'm assuming its four of the the Mabuchi RS-550s I'm after. Off to the gym in a bit so if no-one has replied this evening when I get back at about 2130 hrs, I'll just order some and see how I get on with them.
I've also been reading about these brushless motors and I have to say I've lost the will to live re what to go for. I'll have a look at some mounts as well while I'm on. Must say all this electric stuff is a bit of a mystery to me - physics never was a strong point......
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You don't have to have 4 motors. You could have just two, each driving two shafts via a toothed belt drive. Simplifies things a bit.
Colin
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You don't have to have 4 motors. You could have just two, each driving two shafts via a toothed belt drive. Simplifies things a bit.
Colin
the lad that built the invincible suggested four. I've honestly no idea what I'm doing here on the electrics. I'm quick happy with tackling the build when I eventually get started (hopefully this weekend), but as for fitting it out, I'm in the land of the clueless I'm afraid and happy to take any helpful advice.
Is the Mabuchi the engine you'd go for?
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Bloody hell. I've just been watching some bloke on youtube running in a motor having dropped it in a bowl of water!
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Best idea is to do a bit of homework. A similar issue just been discussed on the Model Boats website with links.
https://www.modelboats.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=183855&p=1
Otherwise you risk taking advice you don't fully understand which is not a recipe for success. That said, any advice from RAFLaunches on here is well worth listening to but, as always, there are several ways of skinning the proverbial cat.
The two shafts on each side will always be operated together so there is a good case for linking them and using one motor on each side which simplifies the wiring, speed controllers etc. and saves space.
You need to get a handle on all this BEFORE you start building. All those nice expensive fittings are essentially the icing on the cake but you have to bake the cake first!
Colin
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The good old method of bedding in the brushes on a brushed motor. Used to do this all of the time with motors for fast electrics (540 type buggy motors), stick them in a glass of water, connect to a 7.2V NiCd then stop when the water started to get blackened. This method kept the motor cool while washing the carbon off of the commutator as the brushes bedded in. Once ready just dry the motor off, put some oil on the bearings (bronze bushes) and fit to the boat. No longer needed with brushless motors and less need with scale type brushed motors as the current is much lower and less likely to get sparking at the brushes.
Jim
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Best idea is to do a bit of homework. A similar issue just been discussed on the Model Boats website with links.
https://www.modelboats.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=183855&p=1 (https://www.modelboats.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=183855&p=1)
Otherwise you risk taking advice you don't fully understand which is not a recipe for success. That said, any advice from RAFLaunches on here is well worth listening to but, as always, there are several ways of skinning the proverbial cat.
The two shafts on each side will always be operated together so there is a good case for linking them and using one motor on each side which simplifies the wiring, speed controllers etc. and saves space.
You need to get a handle on all this BEFORE you start building. All those nice expensive fittings are essentially the icing on the cake but you have to bake the cake first!
Colin
Many thanks - will take a look.
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Ok so this just got a bit harder. Having read up a bit to it, it would appear I could go for four brushless motors and programme them so that if I'm turning to port, the starboard motors can go into reverse whilst the port motors carry on forwards, so you are using engine control to make the manoeuvre. Have I got that right?
The other thing is R/C - seems to have come on a bit since my old man bought me a two channel 27Mhz Sanwa II R/C unit. I think I need individual channels for each motor, and each channel can be programmed. So if I put smoke in and have the guns turning, I'm looking at about 8 channel radio.
So do I go down the brushless route, and what is an equivalent motor to the 550 recommended by the lad who built Invincible and Dreadnought, and what do I do about speed controllers? And which R/C transmitter and receiver do I go for????
Has this all of a sudden become bloody complex, or am I overcomplicating it?
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The electrical side of it can be daunting and it can be very easy to over think/over complicate things. I know because I’m guilty of it.
Something to think about is how you want it to look on the water. Personally I like my warship to look like it has a nice scale speed and realistic turning circle. So if it was me, I wouldn’t worry about having motors moving in opposite directions during a turn, as long as you have a good throw in each direction on your rudder you should be fine. From that you could run two of the four motors off one ESC and the other two motors off a second ESC connected with a Y lead to the channel in your receiver. (I think you’d be pushing even a 40amp esc if you were running all 4 motors off one ESC) So you’d have 4 motors, two ESCs and these could be run from one channel on your transmitter. Be careful if your ESCs have a built in BEC. You don’t want two BECs connected to your receiver. This can be sorted but you’ll just need to check the ESC instructions.
Motor wise, from my experience I’d suggest a 500 brushed motor. My warship which is about 5ft long has two 380 size motors and this gives a lovely scale speed at 1/2 throttle, but I have more should I need to get out of the way of anything. I believe your dreadnought is a similar length but wider. So I don’t think you’d need bigger than 500 motors, especially if you have 4 of them :D
I can’t answer about brushless because I don’t use them in boats.
Radio gear depends on your budget. Personally I like the Spektrum dx9. Plenty of channels and a lot of them are programmable. For example you can adjust your throttle, so if you have a lot of power at the top end of your throttle and your scale warship looks more like a speed boat crossing the pond you can adjust the throttle curve and give yourself only 50% at full throttle. Obviously there are many others out there to suit your budget and needs, but the more working features you want, the more channels you’ll want on your transmitter.
I hope that makes some sort of sense and helps a bit.
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The electrical side of it can be daunting and it can be very easy to over think/over complicate things. I know because I’m guilty of it.
Something to think about is how you want it to look on the water. Personally I like my warship to look like it has a nice scale speed and realistic turning circle. So if it was me, I wouldn’t worry about having motors moving in opposite directions during a turn, as long as you have a good throw in each direction on your rudder you should be fine. From that you could run two of the four motors off one ESC and the other two motors off a second ESC connected with a Y lead to the channel in your receiver. (I think you’d be pushing even a 40amp esc if you were running all 4 motors off one ESC) So you’d have 4 motors, two ESCs and these could be run from one channel on your transmitter. Be careful if your ESCs have a built in BEC. You don’t want two BECs connected to your receiver. This can be sorted but you’ll just need to check the ESC instructions.
Motor wise, from my experience I’d suggest a 500 brushed motor. My warship which is about 5ft long has two 380 size motors and this gives a lovely scale speed at 1/2 throttle, but I have more should I need to get out of the way of anything. I believe your dreadnought is a similar length but wider. So I don’t think you’d need bigger than 500 motors, especially if you have 4 of them :D
I can’t answer about brushless because I don’t use them in boats.
Radio gear depends on your budget. Personally I like the Spektrum dx9. Plenty of channels and a lot of them are programmable. For example you can adjust your throttle, so if you have a lot of power at the top end of your throttle and your scale warship looks more like a speed boat crossing the pond you can adjust the throttle curve and give yourself only 50% at full throttle. Obviously there are many others out there to suit your budget and needs, but the more working features you want, the more channels you’ll want on your transmitter.
I hope that makes some sort of sense and helps a bit.
Thank you - that is really helpful. Now about these BECs. What exactly do they do and do you buy them with the radio kit?
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BEC means battery eliminator circuit, basically it does away with the need for a separate battery for the receiver by powering the radio from your drive battery through the ESC, reducing the voltage to a suitable level - most modern ESCs have this built in as standard so no need to buy anything extra, just check the spec for your chosen ESCs.
If you have two BEC ESCs connected to one receiver then as a general rule the positive lead on one ESC needs to be disconnected, simplest way to do this is lift the wee tab on the plug with a craft knife and slide out the pin on the red lead, tape it back so it's out of the way but available if you ever want to use the ESC elsewhere. As Dan said, just check the instructions.
Hope this helps and good luck with the build
Ralph
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Sometimes you'll see receivers in a model and they will have a small battery pack plugged into them directly. This powers the receiver and servos.
If you don't use a separate battery pack to power the Rx and servos, you need a BEC. The BEC basically takes a safe voltage from your main battery and uses that to power the RX and servos. I know alot of ESC's have built in BEC's.
When you use two ESCs together with built in BECs, usually you simply remove one of the 3 wires from the RX plug. Which colour you remove will depend on the make of ESC. But obviously you need to check this when the time comes.
I use mtroniks ESCs and they have a built in BEC. So I don't use the separate smaller battery pack.
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If you get a copy of Model Boats Magazine, June 2022, there is an explanation, with clear diagrams, of the various possible options for controlling two shafts, which can equally be applied to four.
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I'm often surprised at how much power some models seem to use. Reference on this one to a 40amp speed controller really surprised me. My Iron Duke is 78 inches long and about 60 pounds in weight and gets to scale speed easily yet only draws about 3.5 amps in all.
Its powered by two car blower motors (old Talbot Horizon) they are 12 poll 12/14 volt motors with silent running and enormous torque. I run them in parallel on 6 volts and as above max current draw is about 3.5 amps in all.
Direct drive on the inner motors and "O" ring drive to the outer shafts. In 6 years sailing I've never experienced an "O" ring break. ID has twin rudders which are in line with the two inner shafts so manoeuvrability is fine.
I use one Electronize speed controller to power both motors together and have never had any problems. I have a 10 amp fuse between the battery and the speed controller and separate 5 amp fuses to each motor for protection and this works fine.
Unless weight is a concern I never use BEC because if the main battery voltage drops too much it all shuts down. Much better to have a separate supply to the receiver to avoid this issue IMHO.
Batteries in ID are lead acid/gell so I can virtually run them flat and creep back but if linked to a BEC it would just die and stop.
I look forward to your progress
Cheers
Geoff
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I agree with Geoff 100%. I can't understand how some boats seem to generate huge power consumption figures, it just suggests that the drive setup is wrong. I've always been an advocate of gearing down the motor at 2:1 or 2.5:1 using pulley drive which helps both the motor and the propeller to achieve optimum output. A common fault is to overload the motor by using direct drive to a prop which is too large for it which introduces inefficiencies in both. My 48 inch Fishery Cruiser is quite a heavy model but draws no more than 2.5 amps at full speed on both props. A 10 amp ESC is overkill, let alone a 40 amp one!
For efficiency, motors need to run at a high speed but props need much lower revs. Whilst a rule of thumb for brushed motors is that the prop should not be bigger than the diameter of the motor casing you can still get big improvements in consumption by gearing the prop down. Very few people seem to appreciate this.
Very often there are questions about cooling the motor down by introducing water cooling but unless you are trying for speed records this is simply a symptom of a mismatched driveline and you are just turning wasted effort into heat. An efficient setup in a scale model will always run cool.
Colin
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I've been waiting for the resup and it has arrived all the way from sunny New Zealand. I'm a searchlight short (forgot to order) >>:-(
I'm now just about ready to make a start on the build
If I may ask Simmerit, where in New Zealand did you get the 3D printed parts?
Garry
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Having Read Colin and Geoffs replies I’ll say I’m only going on experience with ESC sizes when I meantioned the 40amp. I’ve seen boats with two 550 motors running off one 30amp esc completely cook it. Not just once, a few times different, people, different models.
That said, I would follow Colin and Geoffs advice. Theirs has good facts and figures where as mine was just from what I’ve experienced. Apologies for the perhaps useless advice on the ESC size :embarrassed:
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No intention of being critical Dan and it is always best to be safe rather than sorry with ESCs. It is just very common that many people don't appreciate the potential power consumption savings that come with getting the right driveline setup. The more the knowledge is shared, the more model builders will benefit.
Colin
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Totally agree Colin. I'm always happy to be corrected/advised too. With most things I do tend to go up a big extra than what I need just to be safe. :-))
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If I may ask Simmerit, where in New Zealand did you get the 3D printed parts?
Garry
Micro Master. The kit is stunning. The CAD drawings were done using Norman Ough's drawings - you can imagine the standard.
Prepare to lie down when you've looked at the prices and you will need a wet t-towel to put over your head.
Just saying
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Thanks for the discussion on motors lads - looks like I need to get my maths head on as I need to do some sums. I am 99.7% certain I'm going for 4 x brushless motors. The plan is to work out what electrics I need, take a sharp intake of breath and order them this weekend + a smoke generator thingie and a sound thingie.
New 4mm ply came for the decks - I've got to recut them from the originals shipped with the kit as they are banana shaped :-)
Mrs spotted the customs bill for importing the New Zealand manufactured bits and bobs. FORTUNATELY I bought her a git big leather hippo from Selfridges for her birthday so I didn't get any grief, and she's just landed the Lego Titanic for Chrimbo. I'm being told I cant have any more guns, but I've got to work out how to get a Lee-Enfield 4T L42A1 through the door %% . In the meantime this came today and she answered the door to it so I thought I was in trouble. Its not been mentioned yet...... <*<
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Micro Master. The kit is stunning. The CAD drawings were done using Norman Ough's drawings - you can imagine the standard.
Prepare to lie down when you've looked at the prices and you will need a wet t-towel to put over your head.
Just saying
Thanks for the info, I'll have a tentative look at their offerings, after taking my medication.
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I'm often surprised at how much power some models seem to use. Reference on this one to a 40amp speed controller really surprised me. My Iron Duke is 78 inches long and about 60 pounds in weight and gets to scale speed easily yet only draws about 3.5 amps in all.
Its powered by two car blower motors (old Talbot Horizon) they are 12 poll 12/14 volt motors with silent running and enormous torque. I run them in parallel on 6 volts and as above max current draw is about 3.5 amps in all.
Direct drive on the inner motors and "O" ring drive to the outer shafts. In 6 years sailing I've never experienced an "O" ring break. ID has twin rudders which are in line with the two inner shafts so manoeuvrability is fine.
I use one Electronize speed controller to power both motors together and have never had any problems. I have a 10 amp fuse between the battery and the speed controller and separate 5 amp fuses to each motor for protection and this works fine.
Unless weight is a concern I never use BEC because if the main battery voltage drops too much it all shuts down. Much better to have a separate supply to the receiver to avoid this issue IMHO.
Batteries in ID are lead acid/gell so I can virtually run them flat and creep back but if linked to a BEC it would just die and stop.
I look forward to your progress
Cheers
Geoff
Thanks Geoff,
quick question or two if I may?
What Speed Controllers do you use and do you run your receiver and servos off normal batteries (duracell AAs or some such like)?
Cheers
Si
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Geoff is using brushed motors and associated speed controllers which is a quite different setup from what you would need if you use brushless motors which require their own individual controllers.
As he explains above, his arrangement is a very effective way of propelling a model of this type and only needs two speed controllers. Much simpler all round.
Colin
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Geoff is using brushed motors and associated speed controllers which is a quite different setup from what you would need if you use brushless motors which require their own individual controllers.
As he explains above, his arrangement is a very effective way of propelling a model of this type and only needs two speed controllers. Much simpler all round.
Colin
Yep I'd clocked that. I'm still looking at both options - hence the questions, but fairly certain I'm going brushless (I think)....!
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Hi, I actually use a single speed controller to control both motors. Elecronize which are no longer available which is a real shame.
i am using brushed motors which for battleship applications are very economical in terms of power consumption and cost. I'm happy to be corrected but think brushless are too expensive when combined with their speed controllers and my perceptions are generly more suitable to light weight fast models where power and weight are key.
For the reciever I use a sepearate 6v lead acid/gell battery so there is little chance of running out of power.
Motor choice for battleship models can be difficult as what we want are high torque slow reving motors. In practice we don't need that much manouverability as the real ships didn't. In my general opinion its always best to keep it simple for reliabilty.
cheers
Geoff
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I do think so with Geoff's opinion if the battleship is intended to sail really on the water for "regular service", not as a merely ceremonial maiden voyage. Reliability, safety, stability and easy maintenance are to be more focused on when operating the model ship regularly on the water for happy boating and boaters. The nature is frequently so severe to the model ships /boats on the water, just like a RC airplane in the sky. O0 {-) {:-{
If I were you, I would definitely use brushed motors which I think are sufficient and adequate for the slow sailing scale model especially like the large battleship. !! O0 :embarrassed:
1; Simple! {-)
2; while reliable on the water! O0
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OK. I thinkI've got the message...... >>:-(
Brushed motors are the way to go!
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Right then. I've just ordered 4 x 550 motors. Next one is batteries. RAFLaunches said he runs his with 3 x sealed lead acid batteries. I've lost the will to live with sums on power consumption so can someone do me a favoUR and spell out in words of one syllable what I need? Its a mystery to me I'm afraid.
I found these lads that do them
https://howesmodels.co.uk/product-category/batteries-chargers/lead-acid-batteries-and-chargers/12-volt-lead-acid/ (https://howesmodels.co.uk/product-category/batteries-chargers/lead-acid-batteries-and-chargers/12-volt-lead-acid/)
and what do I do about a charger?
I take it two of these will do as well?
https://howesmodels.co.uk/product/mtroniks-viper-marine-40-boat-esc-electric-speed-controller/
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Without wishing to rain on your parade, you need to calculate how much weight you can devote to the batteries (and therefore their capacity) bearing in mind the likely weight of the rest of the model. Idealy you need to be in a situation where you still need some ballast to bring the model down to its correct waterline. Lead acid batteries come in all shapes, sizes, weigts and capacities and will need to fit under the deck as low down as possible to maximise stability.You can lay them down flat but the 'top end' is usually lighter than the bottom which can affect weight distribution.
You have taken on a major project even for experienced modellers and words of one syllable don't really cut it I'm afraid. If you can find someone who has already built this model successfully then unless you are prepared to do a lot of research then it is best to replicate that setup in the knowledge that it works. It will save you a lot of grief.
As for moving the turrets and guns, that is a whole different ball game and there are lots of posts on here which discuss it as there are many possible options. This thread showw what the possibilities are:
https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,56800.0.html
Colin
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Without wishing to rain on your parade, you need to calculate how much weight you can devote to the batteries (and therefore their capacity) bearing in mind the likely weight of the rest of the model. Idealy you need to be in a situation where you still need some ballast to bring the model down to its correct waterline. Lead acid batteries come in all shapes, sizes, weigts and capacities and will need to fit under the deck as low down as possible to maximise stability.You can lay them down flat but the 'top end' is usually lighter than the bottom which can affect weight distribution.
You have taken on a major project even for experienced modellers and words of one syllable don't really cut it I'm afraid. If you can find someone who has already built this model successfully then unless you are prepared to do a lot of research then it is best to replicate that setup in the knowledge that it works. It will save you a lot of grief.
As for moving the turrets and guns, that is a whole different ball game and there are lots of posts on here which discuss it as there are many possible options.
Colin
I'm relaxed about the build - I'm a seasoned modeller, but have never tackled anything R/C. Running gear and electrics are a mystery to me I'm afraid so I'm rather hoping one or two of the seasoned veterans on here will pile in.
Totally agree re replicating a previous build of the same battlewagon - less risk of making mistakes.
The interest in ships by the way comes from the old man - he was on HMS Myngs. I also spent hours in the museum in Sunderland when I was little looking at the models which were produced by Doxfords ship yard. They were simply amazing to a young pup of 9.
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Batteries ordered! Gone for 3 x 12v 7 ah sealed lead acids, which I think is correct..
Just got to sort the speed controllers and I think I'm well on the way - oh apart from leads to connect this lot up!
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so for anyone in the land of the clueless like me, and wanting to find out easily about ECSs and how you drive two engines from one channel, watch this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQIGb8VzX08
also explains what micro switch does. Now how you drive four engines from one channel is something I need to establish, but I'm sure there are wise old souls on here that will chip in with a view before I've found a video on youtube explaining.
My big question now is what Ampage to buy for the ESCs. Worky thing now unfortunately....
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Okay, if I may make some general guidance observations, there are a couple of maths formulas that can be used but the most useful one for us is Power(in watts) = Volts x amps. (P=VI)
So for practical purposes if you make up a jig with just one motor, prop shaft and propeller that you intent to use, just try it in the sink and measure the current in amps(I). You know the voltage, you then know the amps and you can calculate the wattage so total power which will give you a guide as to speed controllers.
Now if you put a 550 on 12 volts with a prop say 1" in diameter I would suspect the amperage will be quite high and the water will probably leave the basin! So if one motor draws say 7.5 amps four will draw 30 amps, so power consumption is excessive.
However, if you take a 550 and gear it down two to one the current consumption will generally be at least halved but the actual thrust not much reduced (I tried it years ago and was surprised).
Now its very easy to say gear it down but in practice this is not so easy because most gearboxes make a lot of noise. You used to be able to purchase toothed belt reduction drives, I don't know if they are still available but they work well.
It ultimately comes down to a cost/performance analysis:
1) Not all 450 or 550 motors are the same - you can get high and low current versions - you want the low current versions and they will cost "X". If you make a test rig you can find out if you need to gear them down or not before you purchase anything else.
2) How much will a toothed belt reduction unit cost? the answer is "Y" so X+Y is your cost per shaft. How much for the speed controller?(say Z)
3) How much will a brushless motor cost (say A) and how much will the associated speed controller cost (say B) so which solution is cheaper X + Y + Z or A + B?
4) Bear in mind the answer will have to be multiplied by four for four shafts and the cost can be surprising high.
5) More importantly which gives you the performance level you want. Bear in mind the lower the current consumption the longer you can sail the model.
6) In my general experience for a model of Dreadnought at 1/96 scale at scale speed you should not be drawing more than about 5 amps in all. Anything very much higher means the drive train combination is inefficient.
7) There are other ways to reduce amperage and that is to use a smaller propeller or 3 rather than 4 blades however to gain the practical experience also costs money!
8) As an added complication, say at full speed the model is going twice as fast than you want, then half speed will slow it down and generally reduce the current consumption. Electronic speed controllers (not sure about brushless) generally work by rapidly switching the power on and off. So at half speed the power is only switched on for half the time (so many times per second/frequency) so half speed = half the power consumption because the engine in only on for half the time - this is just a very general guide to the concept.
The benefit of this site is that people have already done a lot of the experimentation for you so we all gain from each others experience.
In my general view direct drive is the way to go with the right motors as its fundamentally a simpler and therefore more reliable solution (always use double Huco couplings per shaft as this is much better than a single coupling and allows for more misalignment without power loss. Perfect alignment is hard to get!
Asa previously mentioned I uses two car blower motors (from behind the dash) as they will run on 12 volts or 6 volts with low revs and very high torque, I don't know what they now cost from a breakers yard but two will easily provide more than adequate power to drive four shafts using a single speed controller. Manoeuvrability will be fine as Dreadnought has twin rudders in line with the two inner shafts. You really don't need to make the installation too complicated.
Hope this may help.
Cheers
Geoff
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I should have also added an item regarding stall current. This is the maximum current the motor will draw if the shaft is locked tight for some reason. This figure is very different from actual usage.
For example using my car blower motors, two in parallel, draw 3.5 amps combined but individually the stall current for a single motor was well more than 20 amps! That's as far as my ammeter read! At this current level you can blow the speed controller.
The solution is simple, put a main fuse at about 50% of the maximum current the speed controller will take and then a separate in line fuse at about 25% of the current for each motor.
For Iron Duke this translates into a 10amp fuse plus two 5 amp fuses. You can therefore loose one motor due to debris but still get home on the other.
Cheers
Geoff
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I should have also added an item regarding stall current. This is the maximum current the motor will draw if the shaft is locked tight for some reason. This figure is very different from actual usage.
For example using my car blower motors, two in parallel, draw 3.5 amps combined but individually the stall current for a single motor was well more than 20 amps! That's as far as my ammeter read! At this current level you can blow the speed controller.
The solution is simple, put a main fuse at about 50% of the maximum current the speed controller will take and then a separate in line fuse at about 25% of the current for each motor.
For Iron Duke this translates into a 10amp fuse plus two 5 amp fuses. You can therefore loose one motor due to debris but still get home on the other.
Cheers
Geoff
Thanks Geoff - comment and guidance most appreciated. I'd come to the conclusion that the easiest way of managing risk is to get a speed controlled that can handle high output at the top end, like the Mtronicks Viper Marine 40, which handles up to 40 amps. It may cost a tenner more than the Marine 30, but for the sake of a tenner, why take the risk?
I've been looking at gearing, but no point in taking the plunge until I've had the motor and prop in the water in the sink. I suspect with 4 x 550s, it may well run at Warp Factor 10!!!!
Si
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Hi Simmerit, This the demo board I took to Blackpool to show common installations found in model boats.
Stan.
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Hi Simmerit, This the demo board I took to Blackpool to show common installations found in model boats.
Stan.
Thanks Stan. I’ll give you a shout. Just replied to your pm.
Cheers
Si
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Right then. Stan has explained stall speed and what governs the capacity of the speed controller I need, so I've pinged Ron at Deansmarine and asked him for some advice on the motors I've bought. Hopefully he will get back to me tonight and I can get them bought!
So....... smoke as in funnel smoke. That's the next challenge! I'm getting there lads. I thought I'd have started the thing by now!
Black smoke - clearly
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Anyone used the TARR Mk VI PRO Transparent Smoking Unit? They also do a model boat variant but I cant seem to find a stockist for it. Smoke seems thicker, but I'm going to have a lad who is into R/C tanks to see what his thoughts are on the matter. I will report back. Wait Out (as they say)
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Just be aware that if you want thick smoke they can be quite current hungry 12 volts in the 3 to 5 amp range. The nebulisers typically work on 24 volts so you need a converter (Component shop) but they will then still draw 1 amp plus and in my experience the nebulisers which use water are not that effective on the pond as its very thin.
Its quite a tricky area!
Cheers
Geoff
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Just be aware that if you want thick smoke they can be quite current hungry 12 volts in the 3 to 5 amp range. The nebulisers typically work on 24 volts so you need a converter (Component shop) but they will then still draw 1 amp plus and in my experience the nebulisers which use water are not that effective on the pond as its very thin.
Its quite a tricky area!
Cheers
Geoff
It is. I had a good poke around the subject yesterday. Found a simply amazing O gauge engine a bloke in the US had done - smoke you'd be proud of, but no clue as to how he did it.
Just ordered my y cables, mtronics micro switches and ESCs and am now another 150 sheets light. This boat lark is an absolute money pit!
Servos, Batteries and motor mounts turned up today. Hopefully the motors and charger will land tomoz. I am of the opinion I need to crack what I'm doing with smoke and get the kit ordered before I make a start as I need to plan how this lot will be laid out in the hull before I do a thing. Seems the best thing to do to me.
Not thought through what I'm doing with the guns yet. I like the idea of elevation and rotation. Not convinced I'll go with smoke which was what the lad with Iron Duke did. If the guns elevate then that means chopping up those lovely turrets. A nice touch would be being able to elevate the guns independently on each turret, but I think its one problem at a time!
Quite. bit to thing through. Boaty things are not to be dashed into without careful thought is the conclusion I've arrived at.
Need to work out what silicone cable I need also - Stan talked about that. Its quite an electronic and engineering lark this boat modelling.
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Rudder Mixer Units.
Any views?
and
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/224845141106?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160811114145%26meid%3D65eeb172f2e143df8354ba5af610ef2b%26pid%3D100667%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D225235398224%26itm%3D224845141106%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2351460%26brand%3DUnbranded&_trksid=p2351460.c100667.m2042
Looks like it may do a job
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Rudder Mixer units - my view is that with a battleship which has twin rudders in line with the inner shafts its not necessary. I would counsel you sail the model for a while to get used to it and see if you really need one as they are easy to retrofit.
Cheers
Geoff
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Re smoke generators, black smoke is not very easy to generate plus it tends to leave dirty deposits on the model. The link you have given is to the now more common nebuliser units which generate water vapour and are more environmentally friendly. The amount of vapour produced can vary with different units and Model Boats magazine tested the new Denes unit in the October 2022 issue which the reviewer found to produce more vapour than others he has seen. It works on a relatively low voltage too.
Information here including videos.
https://www.denesdesign.co.uk/products/sgu-steam-generator-unit
Colin
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Re smoke generators, black smoke is not very easy to generate plus it tends to leave dirty deposits on the model. The link you have given is to the now more common nebuliser units which generate water vapour and are more environmentally friendly. The amount of vapour produced can vary with different units and Model Boats magazine tested the new Denes unit in the October 2022 issue which the reviewer found to produce more vapour than others he has seen. It works on a relatively low voltage too.
Information here including videos.
https://www.denesdesign.co.uk/products/sgu-steam-generator-unit (https://www.denesdesign.co.uk/products/sgu-steam-generator-unit)
Colin
Thanks Colin - I shall take a look. They are the last items required before I crack on
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So after much debate, and a steer (no pun intended) from the lads at Deans Marine, I've gone with these.
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Re smoke generators, black smoke is not very easy to generate plus it tends to leave dirty deposits on the model. The link you have given is to the now more common nebuliser units which generate water vapour and are more environmentally friendly. The amount of vapour produced can vary with different units and Model Boats magazine tested the new Denes unit in the October 2022 issue which the reviewer found to produce more vapour than others he has seen. It works on a relatively low voltage too.
Information here including videos.
https://www.denesdesign.co.uk/products/sgu-steam-generator-unit (https://www.denesdesign.co.uk/products/sgu-steam-generator-unit)
Colin
I've ordered one. He recommended seeing what the output from one is before deciding if I need to add a second, which would be one per funnel.
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Rudder Mixer units - my view is that with a battleship which has twin rudders in line with the inner shafts its not necessary. I would counsel you sail the model for a while to get used to it and see if you really need one as they are easy to retrofit.
Cheers
Geoff
Cheers Geoff - will give it a miss. Thanks for the ongoing advice by the way - most appreciated.
Si
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Re smoke generators, black smoke is not very easy to generate plus it tends to leave dirty deposits on the model. The link you have given is to the now more common nebuliser units which generate water vapour and are more environmentally friendly. The amount of vapour produced can vary with different units and Model Boats magazine tested the new Denes unit in the October 2022 issue which the reviewer found to produce more vapour than others he has seen. It works on a relatively low voltage too.
Information here including videos.
https://www.denesdesign.co.uk/products/sgu-steam-generator-unit (https://www.denesdesign.co.uk/products/sgu-steam-generator-unit)
Colin
A picture attached of the first one I ordered - the lad that produces them very kindly send me short video of him testing it. Having seen the video, I ordered a second. I think I've not got enough stuff to crack on and make a start. I just need to have a think about the turrets and the guns. I'd like to see if I can get the guns to independently elevate and lower on a couple of the turrets. I've got 12 channels, so plenty of scope with the R/C.
Anyway - quite impressed with the smoke.
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Anyone point me at a neat set of wiring for batteries and motors?
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The wiring of the model is down to yourself and how neat you make it I am not aware of any prewired looms for this model. I have enclosed some pictures from my Grand banks Build and the Missouri kit. Please note I have stopped using terminal blocks and now use Wago 221 blocks this is my personal choice. :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-))
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The wiring of the model is down to yourself and how neat you make it I am not aware of any prewired looms for this model. I have enclosed some pictures from my Grand banks Build and the Missouri kit. Please note I have stopped using terminal blocks and now use Wago 221 blocks this is my personal choice. :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-))
That's nice a neat! Those wago blocks look like a good call also. I was hoping to make a start this weekend, but the mrs has other ideas. Plasterers been in for a week and done 4 rooms including hall stairs and landing, so it looks like I'm on decorating duties for a bit which is a sickner........
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my way of controlling elevation/depression. 1/72 turret, micro servo and metal linkage.
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/10/06/IMG_0725.jpg)
Bob
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For what its worth, I just checked on the M600 motors specifications and I would counsel they may be a little powerful and current hungry for what you need - 15,000 RPM at 3.4 amps so with four you will be pulling about 13.6 amps in all, which in my experience seems on the high side for a model of Dreadnought.
I checked RD site and they do a M500 which would be at 6,000 rpm and pulling 1.6amps so four would pull 6.4 amps or less than half. Its very surprising how little energy it takes to actually move a model like Dreadnought, when compared to say a similar length tug which has a much fuller form. High revs are really not needed.
Cheers
Geoff
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Just on the matter of training and elevating the main guns, you'll need to slow any movement down a lot if you use servos so you'll need the little units (servo morphs) such as these https://www.componentshop.co.uk/p96-servomorph.html.html
:-))
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HI I have two of these servo morphs in my tiger an they are good as one works my tigers gun turrests an they are speed ajustable so very good from components shop well worth it an they are not very big
:-))
chrisb
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For what its worth, I just checked on the M600 motors specifications and I would counsel they may be a little powerful and current hungry for what you need - 15,000 RPM at 3.4 amps so with four you will be pulling about 13.6 amps in all, which in my experience seems on the high side for a model of Dreadnought.
I checked RD site and they do a M500 which would be at 6,000 rpm and pulling 1.6amps so four would pull 6.4 amps or less than half. Its very surprising how little energy it takes to actually move a model like Dreadnought, when compared to say a similar length tug which has a much fuller form. High revs are really not needed.
Cheers
Geoff
I ordered 550s and the lad at Deans Marine wrote to me and said I should go for the 600s, so I took the advice :(( . I guess I'll have to get some gearing on them?
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Just on the matter of training and elevating the main guns, you'll need to slow any movement down a lot if you use servos so you'll need the little units (servo morphs) such as these https://www.componentshop.co.uk/p96-servomorph.html.html (https://www.componentshop.co.uk/p96-servomorph.html.html)
:-))
Thanks Tony - will take a look. I'm desperate to get started but am about to move yet more furniture around - new carpets tomoz......
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Deans are very user friendly and may do a swop if they are unused, just say in hindsight the four of them may be too powerful for your needs. Ron's a very friendly and helpful guy.
Lots of people assume because its a battleship it will need enormous amounts of power to move it which just isn't the case.
By changing props you can also improve speed, duration and current consumption but its a bit hit and miss and not cheap with four at a time. If you model goes a little slow swap 3 blade for 4 blade or increase the prop diameter by say 5mm as it makes a surprising difference.
Please don't worry too much as model boats are very forgiving.
A question for Nick - what motors do you use in your Invincible?
Cheers
Geoff
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Deans are very user friendly and may do a swop if they are unused, just say in hindsight the four of them may be too powerful for your needs. Ron's a very friendly and helpful guy.
Lots of people assume because its a battleship it will need enormous amounts of power to move it which just isn't the case.
By changing props you can also improve speed, duration and current consumption but its a bit hit and miss and not cheap with four at a time. If you model goes a little slow swap 3 blade for 4 blade or increase the prop diameter by say 5mm as it makes a surprising difference.
Please don't worry too much as model boats are very forgiving.
A question for Nick - what motors do you use in your Invincible?
Cheers
Geoff
Thanks Geoff - I’ve just pinged them on email. Hopefully they will swap them.
Si
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Erm the response
Dear Sir
It may be that we have a rough idea what we are talking about ?
or the "experts" who have never built a model. ?
The propellers on Dreadnought are small ( as on the full size ship, direct drive ) so you need higher rpm, less load so lower amperage. 600 motors on 6 volts will give you 4500 -5000 about perfect ?
but send them back if you wish and pay for the return postage.
Regards
Deans Marine
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A question for Nick - what motors do you use in your Invincible?
Cheers
Geoff
Sorry I’ve been quiet for a while, I’ve had a few problems over the last three/four months involving work/injuries/car issues which have taken up the majority of my time recovering from work and the knee/foot injury, and the car decided to massively fail it’s MOT and taken a while to fix.
In Invincible I used car heater motors like yourself driving the outer shafts via a belt pulley system.
On Glorious I think I’m using four 600 motors driving one per shaft- I’ll have to have a look again as I’ve not touched the model for a couple of months. Back on to modelling boats-wise now that things have dramatically improved :-))
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The followings are merely my personal opinion based upon my experience to build and operate RC model ships and boats and would not be necessarily suitable in the 1/96 Dreadnought.
The model ship data between my 1/96 HMS Fencer and 1/96 Dreadnought by Deans Marine are so near in terms of length and weight, such as 162cm(Fencer) against 165cm and weight is nearly the same...except the beams 9cm wider with the Fencer. While The Dreadnought is clearly much slimmer than The Fencer and this I think is very important to sail, needless to say.!
By the way, my Fencer is driven by a single and tremendously old Johnson 600 series motor with 60mm dia props and a 12V sealed battery.
The motor is far larger than Mabuchi 540 class motor as seen in the pics below.
Sailing of my Fencer is as seen in the following video and I think it fundamentally OK, BUT seems a bit faster for a scale model escort carrier even at this speed in the video... :embarrassed:
I got the Fencer to operate at 1/4 throttle at the fastest in the video while I feel idling level of throttle might be better for a scale realism in movement on the water.....In other words, idling throttle level of sailing might be sufficient for this warship in my impression currently. :embarrassed: :D
Next sailing is supposed to carry out next spring with a 6V 2.3A sealed battery which I think is sufficient to enjoy both scale speed and run time as well.
Getting back to 1/96 Dreadnought, the hull is much slenderer than the Fencer, and if the weight should be expected nearly the same level, ...
I PERESONALLY think and imagine as a conclusion that 4 pieces of around 540 class motors brushed at the largest and 6-7.2 V battery will do a nice and magnificent sailing performance on the water depending on the props as a scale model warship like the Dreadnought. :-)) :-)) :-)) IF I were you,I would possibly select this configuration as the first trial. %)
Wishing you a best result for a magnificent RC sailing model warship.!!!! :-)) :-)) :-))
1/2;Johnson 600 series motors I got in 2007. Small one is Mabuchi 540 SH.
3; a Johnson 600 series motor installed in the hull which motor looks so small for the whole hull but soooo powerful actually. O0 :D :-)) too fast for a scale model warship even at very low revolutions with 12 V battery by a little stick work. {-) {:-{ :embarrassed:
4; 60mm dia screw
I think that a large-scale model ship like the 1/96 Dreadnought be better if sailed magnificently at low speed on the water. :-))
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4f-fI3S6f1E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4f-fI3S6f1E)
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Just on the matter of training and elevating the main guns, you'll need to slow any movement down a lot if you use servos so you'll need the little units (servo morphs) such as these https://www.componentshop.co.uk/p96-servomorph.html.html (https://www.componentshop.co.uk/p96-servomorph.html.html)
:-))
not using them as servo is proportional so I get the rate I want as per the 1-1 version unless the servo morph can be controlled as proportional then you are stuck with unrealistic speed unless your representing a slow plodding turret
Bob
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I erm seem to have cornered the market on these O0 . I was sure it said block of 4 when I ordered two packs!!
Hopefully my silicone cable will come this week so I can make a start over the Christmas break.
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All seems to have gone quiet on this build - is any progress being made?
Colin
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Hi Simmerit, This the demo board I took to Blackpool to show common installations found in model boats.
Stan.
I've just seen this Stan. This is genius!
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This one? Will be at Blackpool this year.