Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Steam => Topic started by: rhavrane on November 13, 2024, 09:46:39 am
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Bonjour,
I have bought a "brand new" steam plant, only tested once then left on a shelf ... for more than 10 years !
Bad luck, for me I mean, water was left in the boiler... The rest in pictures :
https://youtu.be/j_2xBOR2ais (https://youtu.be/j_2xBOR2ais)
https://youtu.be/yxJUC9kUlyM (https://youtu.be/yxJUC9kUlyM)
Morality, I highly recommend emptying your boilers after using them ok2
If you wish activating the subtitle function in your langage with YouTube, please watch this video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UJOgdflke8&t=4s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UJOgdflke8&t=4s) :-))
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My estimate would be tapwater or demiwater, or demi with a bit of tapwater being used. In combination with brass fittings that is a killer.
I use double destilled water, refresh every four hours, measure conductivity regularly, but leave the water in the boiler.
So far, I do not see any ill results.
I have done some checks, like measuring the water at the beginning of a 2 month storage period, and after, and I cannot see any chemical changes to the water. Therefore, no chemical reactions going on in my boiler during periods of inactivity.
When I was still professionally working with steam plants, active as well as idle boilers were tested every 3 days, and changes to the water could clearly be observed in one month...
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Hello !
Sometime , I pull out some boiler with water which has been inside for more than 10 years and I never have no deposit , no problem. I use only filtered rain water from my garden . The shrimps left inside are boiled and good for lubrification. %)
Your boiler has probably been filled up with tap water or pond water in the Parisian basin . This water is reputed to be very hard and very calcareous . But .. ! THe limestone did never freeze a thread as it is inside the port.
If there is some suspicion of limestone deposit , then , remove the glass of the glass level and with a syringe , flush with vinegar or even diluted HCL acid. Then soak and flush with vinegar or HCL if really dirty. The acid has no effect on the copper. Be careful with brass boiler though : Sa¨to and Regner.
I don't think it was the limescale that stucked the thread. Rather, I think the previous owner used a little too much threadlocker to reduce a leak at this point. If the original thread was made with a tired tap, then this explains it. Re- thread properly and avoid thread sealant .
It's a good idea to empty your boiler if you're not using it, but life happens ....
I saved many old boilers this way. The vinegar is our friend . The beer too , but it does not clean so well though ! %)
Still
Cheers !
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Personally, I use citric acid... Once a year (beginning of July is marked on my calendar) I fill the boiler to the top with a citric acid solution, leave the filling cap off, and put a very low fire under the boiler for about 15~20 minutes.
Rinse it 3 times with destilled water, and done. Half hour job, tops.
I am not so much worried about deposits, in my case it is because I can never 100% exclude traces of cylinder oil getting into the boiler.
As said earlier, I keep a runtime counter on my TX and every time that number can be divided by four, I drain the boiler and feedwater tank and refresh.
Mind you, the refreshment is "when convnient"... I do not refresh in the middle of a demo day or something like that, either before or after getting back home. It's not a big deal.
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Bonjour,
Advantage of living in France and buying French when you don't know how to fix your mistakes yourself :-))
https://youtu.be/i-HvjgEJBH4
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Bonjour,
I couldn't resist, I have worked hard :-) to be able to make this second test, a few things to be repaired yet:
https://youtu.be/oafJz-LFU9g
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Bonjour,
Finally https://youtu.be/QNuKUhLQDeY ;)
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Bonjour,
I try to minimize the splashing coming out of the steam exhaust pipe connected to the double oil separator by connecting it as close as possible to the steam outlet of the machine.
https://youtu.be/NOIW4ucypXw
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It is a bit of a job, but... You can reduce the splash to near zero by fitting a syphon to your condenser, so it will stay (near) empty.
The syphon needs to go to some kind of dirty water receptacle, because that outflow is very oily.
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Good evening !
Condenser, decanter, separator, oil trap and even Ozsteam demon?
But what are we talking about???
A commonly called a “CONDENSER” is a "illigitimate" accessory that condenses oil poorly and traps it more or less well!
In short, there's grain for thought here, and once again, a vocabulary problem.
What we do need to know, though ; when the steam leaves the machine, it expands, so the pressure drops, but the temperature is still the same when it enters the “condenser. As little oil is deposited on the walls, the steam escapes unhindered.
The water present inside the condenser at start-up is not due to super-condensation, but rather to warming up the engine and above all to the “priming” in the boiler. Indeed, most steamers, believing they are increasing their autonomy, overfill a bit too much their boilers, so the vacuum created when the steam line is opened, plus the internal agitation, cause the excess water below this valve to immediately escape and splash out.
A badly designed closed horizontal "condenser" fills up pretty fast , prevent the steam from escaping freely and creates a back pressure on the engine outlet. The condenser's diameter exhaust in this case must ber 2/3 time larger than the inlet to help hot steam to escape.
A simple example below: oil is recovered from the walls by centrifugal effect, without any restriction on the steam outlet.
Steam exits tangentially into a simple open container. The oil settles on the wall and the steam escapes unhindered.
Virtually no water at the bottom of the tank. The steam has no time to condensate.
At the end of the day, the small amount of oil and water at the bottom is emptied. Easy access for emptying. (not too good for enclosed steam plant) .
https://youtu.be/o2cwiK--Suk?si=cCHJVhzpaX966acKYou'll (https://youtu.be/o2cwiK--Suk?si=cCHJVhzpaX966acKYou'll)
https://youtu.be/yPdeV4eVj7Q?si=e2nrchNJB0Zg3Z9n (https://youtu.be/yPdeV4eVj7Q?si=e2nrchNJB0Zg3Z9n)
There is condenser underneath the hull , the is condenser with heat exchanger , pumping cold water from the pond around the steam pipe bundle , ... You'll know it all there :
https://modelismenavalvapeur.forumactif.com/t2-condenseur-deshuileur-voyons-voir (https://modelismenavalvapeur.forumactif.com/t2-condenseur-deshuileur-voyons-voir)
Vive la Vapeur !!
Cheers !
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A commonly called a “CONDENSER” is a "illigitimate" accessory that condenses oil poorly and traps it more or less well!
In short, there's grain for thought here, and once again, a vocabulary problem.
What we do need to know, though ; when the steam leaves the machine, it expands, so the pressure drops, but the temperature is still the same when it enters the “condenser. Overheating then occurs, and condensation cannot take place yet. As little oil is deposited on the walls, the steam escapes unhindered.
The water present inside the condenser at start-up is not due to super-condensation, but rather to warming up the engine and above all to the “priming” in the boiler. Indeed, most steamers, believing they are increasing their autonomy, overfill a bit too much their boilers, so the vacuum created when the steam line is opened, plus the internal agitation, cause the excess water below this valve to immediately escape and splash out.
A badly designed closed horizontal "condenser" fills up pretty fast , prevent the steam from escaping freely and creates a back pressure on the engine outlet. The condenser's diameter exhaust in this case must ber 2/3 time larger than the inlet to help hot steam to escape.
A simple example below: oil is recovered from the walls by centrifugal effect, without any restriction on the steam outlet.
Steam exits tangentially into a simple open container. The oil settles on the wall and the steam escapes unhindered.
Virtually no water at the bottom of the tank. The steam has no time to condensate.
At the end of the day, the small amount of oil and water at the bottom is emptied. Easy access for emptying. (not too good for enclosed steam plant) .
https://youtu.be/o2cwiK--Suk?si=cCHJVhzpaX966acKYou'll (https://youtu.be/o2cwiK--Suk?si=cCHJVhzpaX966acKYou'll)
https://youtu.be/yPdeV4eVj7Q?si=e2nrchNJB0Zg3Z9n (https://youtu.be/yPdeV4eVj7Q?si=e2nrchNJB0Zg3Z9n)
There is condenser underneath the hull , the is condenser with heat exchanger , pumping cold water from the pond around the steam pipe bundle , ... You'll know it all there :
https://modelismenavalvapeur.forumactif.com/t2-condenseur-deshuileur-voyons-voir (https://modelismenavalvapeur.forumactif.com/t2-condenseur-deshuileur-voyons-voir)
Vive la Vapeur !!
Cheers !
I don't know who wrote that, but the bolded, is ABSOLUTELY untrue: An expansion/pressuredrop without a temperature drop is physically impossible without a supply of heat. You can take my word for that, it is part of my professional education.
The steam IS allready condensing in the cylinders (albeit a little) and by the time the steam enters the condenser, in my installation it contains about 10% mass liquid water. My oil separator (other people call this part a condenser) is thermally insulated, therefore very little condensation takes place IN the separator, yet it expells a fairly steady flow of liquid. This means the steam coming from the engine contains liquid, and the expansion when entering the separator forms the rest.
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Hello !
You are right , this is the principle of the detente of Joule-Thomson . The basic !
:-)) ok2
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Morality, I highly recommend emptying your boilers after using them ok2
This is the best advice for model steam boilers. Most people can't check the quality of the water they use, so emptying after each use cleaning with a weak acid when needed is a good approach.
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This is the best advice for model steam boilers. Most people can't check the quality of the water they use, so emptying after each use cleaning with a weak acid when needed is a good approach.
In case of doubt, always the best approach, yes...
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Bonjour,
Another consequence of stagnant water :((
https://youtu.be/3UnkUD4QtbA
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Those corroded parts to my untrained eye look like made from aluminium, correct.
That is indeed a result of stagnant water, but emptying your boiler won't help here because that part is "untouched".
The only way you can prevent that without extensive maintenance (disassembling and emptying the endangered parts of the system) is to use a sensing line with a syphon, filling the regulator with oil to just past the top bend of the syphon, and the lower bend of the syphon with water.
That way, the lower bend will shield the oil from contact with steam (preventing oil getting to the boiler) because the oil floats on top of the water. Th high bend filled with oil prevents water to come into contact with the aluminium parts.
Oil is not corrosive to aluminium.
An alternative to the syphon could be a membrane chamber, the membrane sealing the oil off from the steam.
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Bonjour,
For every problem, there is a solution :-))
https://youtu.be/fz8qwJgi6PE
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Bonjour,
Epilogue :
https://youtu.be/F-uMhIyIIEU
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Hello !
Just for information ! I pulled out my Boston Typhoon off the shelf for a check up as it is on sale.
The last sailing was in May 2015 (see video date) .
https://youtu.be/IY_Sin-S5J8?si=asB3IcC1HJHd2-o1 (https://youtu.be/IY_Sin-S5J8?si=asB3IcC1HJHd2-o1)
The water remained in the boiler for all this time.
Have a look at the photos : Does it hurts to leave "rain water" for so long in a boiler ? I am not so sure ! Just a slight mark on yje glass.
I have some more behind the shelves with older boiler with the water still inside. I'll have to have a better look at it and get the things right in this shambles !
Regards.
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Hello !
Just for information ! I pulled out my Boston Typhoon off the shelf for a check up as it is on sale.
The last sailing was in May 2015 (see video date) .
https://youtu.be/IY_Sin-S5J8?si=asB3IcC1HJHd2-o1 (https://youtu.be/IY_Sin-S5J8?si=asB3IcC1HJHd2-o1)
The water remained in the boiler for all this time.
Have a look at the photos : Does it hurts to leave "rain water" for so long in a boiler ? I am not so sure ! Just a slight mark on yje glass.
I have some more behind the shelves with older boiler with the water still inside. I'll have to have a better look at it and get the things right in this shambles !
Regards.
And that mark will come off, by rinsing or U-son-ing it with a mild Citric acid solution.
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Hello !
Below , you find a video of my launch Orion moulding which has been built 10 years ago. (see video date)
This launch did not sailed too much , no more than 24 h probably ! %)
https://youtu.be/6VJXIOKlt3Y?si=cDquR2TbUM6Ikgyr
Thinking of the problem of Rhavranne concerning his gaz controler :
Another consequence of stagnant water https://youtu.be/3UnkUD4QtbA (https://youtu.be/3UnkUD4QtbA)
I decided to check mine. And I realise that if it is not as much dammaged as his , there is also galvanic corrosion .
Conclusion , he was right and from now , I shall never use aluminium alloy anymore in my boats although this set is very accurate and reliable , it does not fit our usage.
If it can help .... ok2
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Bonjour Yves,
Sorry to learn that you have the same issue and I have several of this accessory... {:-{
Furthermore, a lot of this one has been sold...
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Hello !
I'm not too sure about the composition of this white “flour” other than that it's not coke! ;-)
I'm not very good at chemistry, but I don't think the problem comes from the wrong combination of metals. The Duralumin in the regulator and the brass of the assy don't have a high enough potential difference to cause galvanic corrosion.
Instead , I'm thinking more of the quality of the water, which lower its ph when boiling. To avoid a too low ph , we'd have to fill the boiler with slightly basic 8/8.5 water so that it becomes neutral (ph7) when the boiler reaches pressure..... Bla, bla, bla,... %%
But let's not split hairs, we don't have the same problems as the industriy, apart maybe from the limescale sometime which acts as an insulator and, as I've always said, “-”:
-” Water is strange , it makes the Pastis cloudy!
In the end, I stick with my rainwater. O0
Last but not least , this item used to be expensive . Mine is not damaged (pitted) and a good clean with soapy water and compressed air will make it new , but this is one thing to watch for those who have one.
Cheers !
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KBIO and rhavrane:
Were the attenuator units you have made specifically for model steam setups? I cannot find any information about these modular units on the web.
What are those units called??
As per the corrosion, deposition corrosion and galvanic corrosion are the most likely culprits. Aluminum and copper don't play well together, longterm.
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Bonjour Martin,
In hindsight, I admit that I bought these regulator/attenuator combinations, bought in Germany by Dieter ??? or Ludger Kiefler, I can't remember, because other modelers had also bought them and therefore recommended them.
That said, they seem to be totally adapted to the use we make of them, in particular with standard European connectors in 6 x 0.75 mm diameter.
I never tried to translate the micro label in German stuck on them, I don't think it referred to any restriction of use and at the time, we had no perspective on this phenomenon.
The manufacturer has long since disappeared and my purchases are more than 10 years old now...
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Raphaël:
Thank you for your reply. I asked solely because the modular design of that attenuator system is intriguing. I have seen it in photos of other steam models and have been unable to find any information aside from the label printed in German.
DM
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Good evening !
I know that this assy was made in France and sold in Europe. Ludger in Germany was the one who proposed it in his father steam shop.
iI asked , he send the french operating sheet. As usual I lost mine... :embarrassed:
This assy was used in the industry for air regulation and connected to plastic lines to control some instruments.
Now , it is not manufactured any more and it was designed for air use , but ... why not for gas ?
Concerning the compatibilty between metals , the brass and duralumin fit fairly well , the galvanic corrosion factor is acceptable. This is a lot different with the copper.
ref to the sheet I use :
But as I said before , I wonder if the corrosion is not rather due to the low ph of the boiling water.... Being not a specialist , I would appreciate some more and clearer explanations.
Cheers !
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These yellow aluminium gas attenuator combo units were made in Germany by Dieter Laspe and when he retired, by Ludger Keifler, for a short time.