Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Steam => Topic started by: ir3 on January 07, 2025, 06:47:42 pm
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I read most of the threads on setting up the Cheddar Proteus Steam Engine and there is a lot I still need to learn. My current problem is the Engine runs on compressed air. When running under steam the engine locks up solid. I can't turn the flywheel by hand. Here is what I have observed. With the cylinder covers off when one piston is at or near to TDC the other piston is not at or near BDC. When I first received the engine, one of the screws on the pushrod was loose. Is it possible that piston has moved causing the difference.
So, how I make sure the pistons are timed properly. Can I make an adjustment with the cylinder covers off. If I can make an adjustment, do I need to reset the port timing.
Thanks in advance.
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Bonjour,
I have had a problem like yours.
The cylinder head fit was too tight, as soon as water/steam was coming, the machine was locked (close to your case ?). I solved the problem by changing the existing gasket for a thicker one.
How did I identify this problem ? By looking if blocking occurred on a top / down dead center on each cylinder which are wedged at 90° so can't block on a dead center at the same time.
Then by removing the cylinder heads bolts and putting a finger on them to feel any vertical movement even slight.
I have't been obliged to adjust the timing as I didn't force the machine to run.
I hope this will help you.
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If it works on air I wouldn't expect it to be a timing issue. If you run on steam and it locks, does it then free itself when it cools? I have a cheddar plover than until recently wouldn't run on steam as the throttle valve kept getting stuck so a servo couldn't move it. Nothing I tried help but speaking to Jerry from Cleavedon steam at the Blackpool show he suggested drilling out the pivot hole from 4mm to 4.1mm. As if by magic the issue was solved and had been due to thermal expansion all along.
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Raphael, I did loosen the screws on the cylinder caps and did not notice any lifting or movement, so I believe that the clearance is probably in spec.
This engine locks with the first application of steam. I opened the throttle valve slightly to limit the amount of steam, but the engine did not move. If it did actually move, it was probably around a half revolution. With the engine cold, what I am finding now is the crankshaft rotates a bit more than 180 and then locks. If I move the reverse lever to the opposite side, the same thing happens when I rotate the crankshaft the other way, a bit over 180 then locks. The two connecting rods are not quite in the same position when it happens. One is perfectly vertical for one piston which could be a TDC or BDC. The other connecting rod is slightly off vertical. This seems to be correct, so I do not understand why I can't rotate it by hand more than 180+ degrees. I'll keep trying to solve this but it is a mystery.
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The proteus engine can be difficult to start under steam, all three of the proteus engines I have used exhibit this behavior, I found the best way to operate them was to partially open the steam valve at a low pressure and warm the engine and turn the prop to rotate the engine. Then as the boiler pressure rises get the engine running, this seems to avoid locking the engine with condensate water. If you wait until the boiler is at pressure let’s say 4 bar and then try to start the engine from cold, that is when it locks. Once the engine is warm and has run there is no problem stopping and starting them it’s just the initial start from cold. These engines are fairly tight when new and take a bit of running in, so if your engine has not run much it will improve the more you run it. Hope this helps
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Hello !
This is right ! The steam have to travels a narrow path : 2 mm through the reverse valve and through a solid piece of cold brass . The vacuum created when the boiler's valve is opened carries a lot of water with the steam, and the large amount of condensation added due to the cold temperature of the metal causes water lock. In all cases, it is necessary to help the motor evacuate condensation by turning the propeller by hand .
Afterwards, it's a pleasure to let these magnificent machines run. Also , keep in mind that the piston's O'ring does not allow the fluid to pass from one side to the other.
The timing is very tricky and it has to be perfect with the Maudlay gears. Apart from one I bought from a guy who put his. nose in it and which needed to be fixed , I never seen any problem with this kind of engine which is very, very reliable.
Let us know your progress and enjoy it .
Kind regards.
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Best way to get ANY steam engine running on cold start-up under steam, is to only open the steam throttle slightly, and keep rocking the reversing gear back and forth until it turns over. By rocking back and forth the reversing gear, you alternate opening the inlet and exhaust to the same working chamber even if the engine is not turning over. This will expell water and preheat the engine. Once water escapes, this will allow the piston to move a teeny tiny bit, and slowly the engine wil gain freedom of movement, until it turns over completely.
Give the engine, once running, 30 to 60 seconds of running low to medium RPM to warm through.
After that, it should run freely, start, stop and reverse at will.
My engine (Microcosm M29) is only about 6 cc, but on start-up it will invariably produce about 20 ml of condensate, even when the engine is turned over by hand prior to starting it up. It still refuses to start up under its own power when cold, but it WILL start up under own power 100% of times, when the reversal gear is being rocked.
This means, that the condensate was NOT in the engine befor start-up, it is being formed during start up by the steam condensing against the cold metal.
My engine, once warmed through, sometimes needs one or two quick reversals to restart if the engine has been stopped for more than 30 seconds when under steam: The inevitable small amount of steam passing the closed throttle will condense in the engine and hydrolock it. It is a common issue for steam engines big and small, it is why full size steam engines usually have blow down valves on the cylinders. Rocking the reversal does the same in a different way.
Some engines perhaps are more sensitive to it than others, but ALL steam engines do it to a more or lesser extent.
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I've had a similar problem with an engine (Hemmens single cylinder) that ran great on air and locked up on steam. It turned out the piston o-ring would swell when in contact with hot steam and lock the piston. A change of o-ring solved the problem.
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Thanks for all the input, much appreciated. The problem with the engine was partly my stupidity. While cleaning the engine I decided to clean up the forward/reverse gears and not realizing what I had done, the engine timing was thrown way off. With the help of Dave S. and Jerry of Clevedon Steam, the timing for the engine has been corrected and the engine runs very smoothly with about 50PSI from the boiler. The next problem to solve is that while the engine is running the boiler is having problems maintaining pressure. The pressure drops to about 30PSI and the engine stops. Could also be the burner or the gas supply. Or possibly the gauge is faulty and showing the boiler is up to pressure when it is actually lower. The Steam Plant has been sitting idle for many years. So, several things to look at. At least, the engine is timed.
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That's good news. Now you need to sort out the boiler.
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I am glad to hear that the Proteus Engine has been saved, after all its such a masterpiece of steam engineering and sounds glorious when it's running fast.
Can we assume that you are using the Cheddar Proteus Boiler? If so, its a number 8 Gas Jet, make sure it's clean unblocked, I use a bit of fuse wire. Next the setting of the gas jet is crucial, the dimension suggested in the instructions is correct, I use a piece of copper pipe of the right size, I put it through the primary air holes and then rest the gas jet against the pipe and tighten the screw to lock the gas jet holder in place, then remove the pipe section used to set the spacing. Getting this spacing right makes a big difference to how the boiler performs.
I have two of these boilers, one supplying two puffin engines and one supplying proteus engine, in both cases, the boiler keeps up with demand whilst the engines are running fast. In my Bustler Tug with the Proteus it will run fast for an hour maintaining the boiler pressure at 5 Bar whilst being filled with water from the pump to keep the water level up. The best water level for this boiler is about 2/3 full, if you fill it too much you will have problems similar to those you describe. hope this helps
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having received a message about this I thought it best to clarify, my experience is with the Horizontal version of the Proteus boiler, here are my two tugs with Proteus Horizontal Boilers complete with automatic boiler controls (ABC) systems, one is by Cheddar, the other is the new and improved version from Dénes Designs
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The gas jet needed cleaning and now the boiler gets to 4 Bar. At this pressure, the engine ran great for a short time. The pressure didn't drop very much when the engine is running. However, there is a lot of water in the condensation tank. Not sure why. Do I need to wait longer before opening the throttle valve on the engine?
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Great news that the engine is running well and that the boilers performance is improved, what's stopping the boiler pressure from getting higher? Is the safety valve lifting, or is the burner not heating the boiler anymore? Is there an automatic boiler control system or gas attenuator operating?
The boiler and engine are rated with a working pressure of 6 Bar, that said it should perform perfectly at 4 Bar as can be seen from my Bustler Tug which when that photo was taken was set at 4 Bar, didn't see the need for more power after that test run.
Re the condensate, initially there will be quite a bit, so what most people do is to warm the engine and get it running smoothly, then empty the condensate tank, then run the engine, then empty the tank again at the end of the run.
As a thought, does your set up use a coil of steam pipe from the steam dome to entering the chimney to dry/heat the steam further before it enters the engine? The standard set up from Cheddar used a pipe in this way, it improves performance and reduces the condensate produced.
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I plan on doing a full boiler test to make sure the safety aspects are working. The pressure sensor will need calibration. There is a pot on the ABC module for setting the threshold. At this time, I have no idea what pressure will activate the pressure sensor for the ABC. The instructions do not appear to indicate a starting point, so I am going to center the pot and let the boiler run until the pressure sensor causes the ABC to shut off the main gas valve. Not so sure I want to run the boiler at 6 Bar, so I am shooting for 5 Bar for now. Once I am pretty sure the boiler is performing properly, I should have a good working, very powerful, Proteus Steam Plant. More to follow.
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The boiler tests this morning worked out very nicely. At 60PSI, the safety valve just started opening. I was able to adjust the Pressure sensor so that the gas valve shuts off the main supply but keeps the pilot lit. As the pressure drops, the gas valve opens back up. I am pretty confident that the boiler safety valve is working properly, and the gas control valve servo control is also working. I am happy with 60PSI at the moment and if in the future more pressure is needed, the safety valve can be adjusted and the gas control valve can be reset to a higher value. There are some steam leaks in the lines to the engine and the engine itself. That should be the last step in the process.
Thanks for all the help. My past experience has always been following the instructions to operate a Steam Plant and never having to solve some of the problems this plant exhibited. A great learning experience.
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That's great! How about doing a video of the Proteus on steam?
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Thanks for all the input, much appreciated. The problem with the engine was partly my stupidity. While cleaning the engine I decided to clean up the forward/reverse gears and not realizing what I had done, the engine timing was thrown way off. With the help of Dave S. and Jerry of Clevedon Steam, the timing for the engine has been corrected and the engine runs very smoothly with about 50PSI from the boiler. The next problem to solve is that while the engine is running the boiler is having problems maintaining pressure. The pressure drops to about 30PSI and the engine stops. Could also be the burner or the gas supply. Or possibly the gauge is faulty and showing the boiler is up to pressure when it is actually lower. The Steam Plant has been sitting idle for many years. So, several things to look at. At least, the engine is timed.
Could be me, but... An engine stopping at 30 psi does not seem right to me? That's 2 bar, a lot of engines have that as normal operating pressure.
I do not have a Proteus, but my engine keeps running down to about 5 psi or maybe even a touch lower, and I would expect most engines to behave like that?
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The Proteus engine is notorious for being tight until they have had some significant run time and from the three I have run, they have definitely needed a healthy amount of pressure to run them, once bedded in the starting and running pressure improves. Here’s a video of one of mine running, I am testing the replacement sight glass sensor from Dènes Designs in the video you will see the valves operating and the pump pumping https://youtu.be/iLoyLBfm9dg?si=reZqMmdDhMHLEXiF (https://youtu.be/iLoyLBfm9dg?si=reZqMmdDhMHLEXiF)
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Thanks for all the comments and pictures. They are great help. I've been away from the shop for a few days and now back on it. The boiler pressure sensor was replaced, and it now switches very nicely at 60 PSI. The safety valve opens at a bit over 60 PSI. There are no other visible problems with the boiler so now on to the steam engine. There were a few steam leaks around the cylinder covers and the slide valve covers. There was also a leak at the throttle box where the copper tubes seat. There is also some leakage around the shafts of the steam valves both on the boiler and engine. Waiting for new O-rings. Back when I mentioned the engine wouldn't run when the pressure dropped to under 30 PSI, it was before I got the timing right. Once everything is back together, more extensive testing will be done.
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Thank you for the update, its great to hear about the positive progress, looking forward to seeing and hearing your Proteus engine running on steam.
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It's been a while. I am still struggling with the setup of the steam plant. There are a lot of steam leaks around valves and the engine itself. I finally got some O-rings for the steam valves and that is no longer a problem. Most of the steam leaks at on the engine have been dealt with. I am being plagued with one little problem after another. The steam pressure/temperature sensor has been giving me some problems. Originally when troubleshooting this sensor, I disassembled it. I tried a replacement, but I could not get it adjusted to work with the ABC, so I tried the original sensor again. I seem to be able to get it open and close the gas valve at around the 60PSI, so I am assuming I did not damage it when I inadvertently disassembled it. I am not going to worry about the sensor for now. It seems to work. The next problem that popped up is that after filling the fuel tank, the burner would run for a few seconds and then just go out. This is with the gas valve fully open. This problem turned out to be a problem with the filler nozzle that screws onto the gas cannister. Changed that and can now get the fuel tank filled. Lots of little headaches build up into one large one.
So now the fuel tank fills properly, and the boiler seems to be doing just fine. The pressure sensor causes the gas valve to close when the pressure gets too high and as the pressure starts to come down, the valve opens. I am happy with this part of the ABC. There are still some major problems that I just do not understand. There has been some discussion about this, but I am at a dead end. First, when I open the steam valve to the engine, the engine starts up very nicely and I can get very high RPM, so I am confident that the timing in the engine is good. The problem is the boiler pressure starts to drop and within about 30 seconds the motor comes to a complete stop. I originally set the water level in the boiler to about 2/3 of the sight glass. When the engine stops running due to the pressure drop, the water level has dropped to about 1/3 of the sight glass. While running, the steam that is coming out of the condenser appears to be quite dry, no bubbles and no apparent moisture at the stack. But the amount of water that is coming from the engine exhaust into the condenser is huge. I would guess, almost the same amount of water the boiler lost during the run.
I can stop the minor steam leaks in the engine, but I cannot understand the problem with the boiler and why the superheater is not drying out the steam going to the engine. I have no idea the history of this steam plant. I purchased it back around 2010 but never ran it on steam. I used compressed air on the engine just to see if it would turn. About 5 years later, I decided to part with the steam plant. I contacted the buyer last year and purchased it back. He indicated that having another he would just display this one. So, the bottom line is that there is no history of this steam plant before 2010. The only conclusion is that the boiler has problems, but I have no way of knowing.
I completed the MHB Project X but have not put it in the water as of yet. I followed the instructions to fire up the boiler and ran the steam plant with no problems.
I am near the end of dealing with Proteus Steam Plant, so if someone has any suggestions as to how I can deal with the boiler, please let me know. I know there is has been a lot of discussion on this thread about the boiler problem, but nothing works.
Thanks for all the inputs.
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Hello, it is hard to say what's wrong without seeing it. It could be boiler priming, which happens when the boiler has certain impurities inside and instead of producing steam, the water foams and the boiler expels both steam and water. Or maybe something entirely different.
Some pictures, or even better a video would be useful to find the problem.
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Re the boiler, assuming it is actually the Proteus Boiler? It is a very good boiler that has no problem providing sufficient steam for a fast running proteus even while the boiler is being filled with water from the pump.
Suggest going back to basics, check the burner is positioned in the flue in accordance with the instructions (basically pushed in until the radius of the burners back plate is in line with the edge of the boilers flue, then check and clean the gas jet, which should be a No8. Position the gas jet in the holder as per the instructions which is 4.5mm from the end of the gas jet to the lower edge of the primary air holes in the burners mixing tube.
Once set up like this, run the boiler and engine without the ABC turned on to check that works properly, if its OK, turn on the ABC and check that its controlling the gas supply and hence the boiler pressure as you want it to. If its not a dirty gas jet causing the issue, I suspect that the gas valve is not opening sufficiently to achieve a full flame at the burner.
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Some pictures, or even better a video would be useful to find the problem.
+1 :-))
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One thought about the engine running full speed on start up and then the boiler pressure dropping. Is this being done with the boat in the water because otherwise the engine revs will be excessive. A simple way to look at a steam engine is that you have so many bites of steam from the boiler. If there is no resistance on the engine the revs will be high and it will use many bites very quickly. If under load the revs will be considerably less and far less bites uses so the boiler pressure is maintained. This may also be the reason for the condenser filling up so quickly because you are taking so many bites.
Cheers
Geoff
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Hi Geoff,
The steam plant is on the bench so no loads on the engine.
For all of the other contributors, following suggestions, the jet is a #8 and the jet holder is set at the factory recommendation. The jet is clean. I hooked up the fuel tank directly to the jet holder and fired the boiler. When the boiler was at around 60PSI I opened the steam valve on the boiler and with the steam input valve on the engine closed the pressure holds at about 60PSI with the safety valve relieving pressure as needed. I slowly opened to steam valve input to the engine and set the throttle to a very low RPM. The pressure dropped slowly from60PSI to below 15PSI where the engine stopped running. Throughout the process which took less than a minute the condenser had a considerable amount of water in it. I plumbed another boiler that I have directly into the engine and all ran perfectly.
If someone knows of a boiler technician in the US that I can send the boiler to for a complete evaluation, please let me know. If not, I will send the boiler to Jerry at Clevedon Steam. I am putting the Mountfleet Cruiser project on hold until the boiler problem is resolved. The overall plan was the install the Proteus Steam Plant in the Cruiser. If that isn't going to happen, I have some alternative possibilities for a different steam plant. I am just taking too much time and getting nowhere with the Cheddar at this time.
Worst case, the boiler is shot. I can live with that.
Thanks once again for all the input.
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Glad to hear the engine is running well, thats a major headache sorted, well done. Re the boiler, before sending it away, please do post some photos of the boiler showing how it is piped into your steam plant, this will help with assessing what might be the issue. The fact that it is possible to raise steam and get it to 60 psi are positive signs, so don't give up hope just yet, there will most likely be a simple explanation.
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OK, back on it. The problem is either the water control valve or the check valve on the boiler. It might have been suggested in this thread that water was being pumped back into the boiler constantly so the boiler could not maintain pressure. I disconnected the reserve water tank supply to the pump and ran the steam plant. WORKS PERFECTLY :-) :-) :-) :-) . As I understand the workings of the water control valve, the valve is open for bypass and closed to allow the pump to fill the boiler up to the water level sensor. The problem is water is always being pumped into the boiler whether the water valve is open or closed. I am assuming that with the water valve in bypass position, there isn't enough pressure to force water through the check valve on the boiler and thus the water goes back into the reserve tank. Could the check valve on the boiler be the culprit?
It seems that if I run this steam plant in the classic way, gas tank straight to the boiler, no water pump to replenish the boiler I will have a perfectly running steam plant.
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First and most important, do not run the pump dry, it must be pumping water, other wise it will burn out the seals, there are challenging to replace.
With the engine running the pump is always pumping water, from the onboard tank round a loop to the pump and back to the onboard tank, it's a low pressure open circuit. On the return leg between the pump and the tank there should be a by pass valve with a servo. This valve closes and diverts the water supply from the pump to the boiler, it's important that the valve closes hard so that no water passes back to the onboard tank (this will need checking). The pipe from the pump to the bypass valve and to the boiler needs to be a copper pipe since it has to withstand pressure greater than the boilers pressure of 6 Bar, before water will enter the boiler.
Where the boiler feed water enters the boiler there should be a non return valve, this will need checking to make sure it's functioning correctly. Please add photos of your set up so we can help.
On one of the Proteus sets I purchased, it had been piped incorrectly and was always pumping water in the boiler, once the two pipes were swapped over it was fine, please show us the piping at the pump and show where the by pass is
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Here are some pictures:
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2025/02/01/P1050613.md.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2025/02/01/P1050611.md.jpg)
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2025/02/01/P1050612.md.jpg)
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Deleted.
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The documentation was not very clear on this, or I just did not understand it. I will make the change.
Thanks, and hopefully there are no more problems.
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The shut-off valve needs to be plumbed between the pump and the boiler. When open the pump will fill the boiler. When closed, the pump will circulate the water back to the reserve tank.
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The servo controlled valve should be dedicated to this feed line.
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Your piping is the right way round, the valve closest to the pump needs to be fully open, it’s not needed for your arrangement. Your abc controlled valve when it’s open allows water round the by pass circuit to the tank when it’s firmly closed the water is the forced into the boiler. The first two photos show the correct piping the third is the one I received that was not correct.
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Placing a shut off valve as suggested by Doc at the Red Cross will work as well
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The shut-off valve needs to be plumbed between the pump and the boiler. When open the pump will fill the boiler. When closed, the pump will circulate the water back to the reserve tank.
No, that is wrong. The Proteus pump is correctly piped in the pictures, the valve has to be on the bypass pipe.
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OK, back on it. The problem is either the water control valve or the check valve on the boiler. It might have been suggested in this thread that water was being pumped back into the boiler constantly so the boiler could not maintain pressure. I disconnected the reserve water tank supply to the pump and ran the steam plant. WORKS PERFECTLY :-) :-) :-) :-) . As I understand the workings of the water control valve, the valve is open for bypass and closed to allow the pump to fill the boiler up to the water level sensor. The problem is water is always being pumped into the boiler whether the water valve is open or closed. I am assuming that with the water valve in bypass position, there isn't enough pressure to force water through the check valve on the boiler and thus the water goes back into the reserve tank. Could the check valve on the boiler be the culprit?
It seems that if I run this steam plant in the classic way, gas tank straight to the boiler, no water pump to replenish the boiler I will have a perfectly running steam plant.
No, the culprit is that your feedwaterpump is continuously pumping cold water into the boiler. That will first of all cool the boiler down fastr than the fire can heat it up, lading to the pressure drop. When the boiler is full, water will come with the steam, and water cannot driive a steam engine, therefore the hydrolocking.
Get your water level control working, and you will have a running system, your burner will be able to keep up, and your engine won't hydrolock anymore.
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I switched the lines per Doc Martins suggestion, and it seems to work OK. In my case, with the valve open, the water gets pumped back to the reserve tank. With it closed, water moves into the boiler. With no water going back to the boiler, the engine runs nicely at 60PSI, and the ABC cycles the gas if the pressure gets too high. The big problem is still the amount of water in the engine exhaust. To add, I am in Southern California and trying to get fuel is very difficult, probably due to PROP 65. I am out of fuel at the moment so no more testing. This will also put a damper on all of my other steam projects so it may be the end of the line.
Thanks for the help.
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Fuel finally arrived and so back to the Boiler. I wondered if somehow the burner was having problems, so I checked it out and with a 4.5mm air gap, the flame color looks good. So, not the burner. The problem of the very wet steam still alludes me. The piping from the boiler to the engine is Cheddar Factory installed. After many exchanges with Jerry at Clevedon Steam, I plan on sending him the boiler for evaluation. In the meantime, I will be installing electrics so I can finish the boat and get it on the pond. I plan on leaving all the mounting blocks in place when and if I reinstall the steam plant. I am at a dead end. If there is any suggestion at all as to how to determine the cause of the problem, please let me know. It just appears the boiler, while getting up the 60PSI, is not producing super-hot steam.
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Progress is being made and this last bit is frustrating. It positive the boiler is heating up and is achieving 60 psi so can't be too much wrong. It seems like the steam thats been made is being used too fast? Not sure how far you are opening the boilers steam valve? suggest just opening it a small amount, enough to get the engine running, rather than all the way to see if that helps maintain the boiler pressure when the engine is running. I found this helped on my twin puffin set up.
Next, if you have another engine, try running that from the boiler and see what happens, the idea here is to see if its the boiler or the engine thats the issue - since its possible the engine is letting too much steam go straight to exhaust although this seems unlikely since the engine is now running well.
Good luck, having worked through so many issues it will be good to solve the last of them
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Just a follow up. I tried just cracking the steam valve on the boiler and the engine does turn over at a low RPM. Opening the valve a bit more causes the engine to start to speed up. It is still adding a lot of water to the condenser. I hooked up another steam engine, a Martin Bayliss Double Compound. I ran it at 60PSI, and the engine runs beautifully. Water is also being added to the condenser but quite a bit less. I did not do a long run with the double compound but, to be sure, a lot less condensate is being produced. So, it may come down to the Proteus engine itself and not the boiler. Because of the behavior of the engine with the boiler valve just cracked, I would think there are no problems with the engine either. But, even at very low speeds, there still is a lot of water in the exhaust steam. I can't do much more here so I do think I will send the engine to Jerry and see if he can find a problem. In the meantime, I checked into temporarily installing electrics in the Cruiser, but I think not. I'll just shelve the Cruiser for now.
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Most of my 5cts of Live Steam wisdom has already been shared by others in this thread. I agree with the statements that the diagnosis would benefit from a video.
The best guess on my part is that there is nothing wrong with your Proteus at all, but you are using the engine in such a way that you are running into a situation where the condensate tank runs full.
Originally, I completely underestimated the amount of condensate produced when the engine warms up. My Baylis and Cheddar engines also produce a lot of condensate, and most of the condensate is produced when the engines are started cold. As soon as the engines have warmed up, more condensate is produced, but to a much lesser extent. Baylis engines have an advantage over Cheddar engines in this respect due to their lighter construction.
I therefore think that the relatively small condensate tank that is supplied with the Cheddar Proteus is simply too small to run this engine without completely emptying the condensate tank after the engine has warmed up - i.e. before the boat is launched.
On my Topaz with the Cheddar Gemini engine, the horizontal condensate trap originally supplied was already so full after the engine had warmed up that condensate was being carried into the steam exhaust pipe in the chimney: It started spewing oily droplets into the pond when the regulator was abruptly opened.
So my standard procedure is to warm up the engine first, then empty the condensate tank and then put the boat in the pond. The amount of condensate produced in the next 20 to 25 minutes of operation is less than the amount of condensate produced when the engine warms up.
Try running the Proteus like this and let us know what happens.
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Most of my 5cts of Live Steam wisdom has already been shared by others in this thread. I agree with the statements that the diagnosis would benefit from a video.
The best guess on my part is that there is nothing wrong with your Proteus at all, but you are using the engine in such a way that you are running into a situation where the condensate tank runs full.
Originally, I completely underestimated the amount of condensate produced when the engine warms up. My Baylis and Cheddar engines also produce a lot of condensate, and most of the condensate is produced when the engines are started cold. As soon as the engines have warmed up, more condensate is produced, but to a much lesser extent. Baylis engines have an advantage over Cheddar engines in this respect due to their lighter construction.
I therefore think that the relatively small condensate tank that is supplied with the Cheddar Proteus is simply too small to run this engine without completely emptying the condensate tank after the engine has warmed up - i.e. before the boat is launched.
On my Topaz with the Cheddar Gemini engine, the horizontal condensate trap originally supplied was already so full after the engine had warmed up that condensate was being carried into the steam exhaust pipe in the chimney: It started spewing oily droplets into the pond when the regulator was abruptly opened.
So my standard procedure is to warm up the engine first, then empty the condensate tank and then put the boat in the pond. The amount of condensate produced in the next 20 to 25 minutes of operation is less than the amount of condensate produced when the engine warms up.
Try running the Proteus like this and let us know what happens.
This is a realistic assessment, could very well be true.
My own Microcosm M29, in its original form (pre-feedwater pump, condensate reclamation etc etc) would run about 10~15 minutes on a single boiler filling.
The condensate receiver has a volume of appr 30 cc (1 fl.oz.) and the cold start of the engine would fill that receiver to more than half of its capacity within about 30 seconds of runtime. The rest of the volume would be gradually filled up during the remainder of the boiler content.
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I tried the suggestions and with the condenser out of the exhaust system for now, the steam plant operates perfectly. I am now not so sure there isn't a problem with the condenser or the chimney stack or both. With the condenser in the exhaust loop and the engine running at pretty brisk speed, water is dripping out of what Cheddar is calling the Offset Pipe Outlet to Drain. There seems to be enough pressure within the condenser that condensate is being forced out through this pipe. I do have this pipe plugged. That is where I see the water collecting on top of the condenser. It appears that the pipe in the chimney is not open enough to relieve the pressure in the condenser. I would include a picture of the setup, but it is hit or miss as to whether I can upload one. Is there a specific procedure for this? I use exactly the same procedure that I used to upload pictures in previous posts.
OOPS, I JUST FIGURED IT OUT!!!!!
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2025/02/14/P1050621.md.jpg)
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The oil separator will work better with larger dia piping especially on the exit from the separator, the pipes in and out of those separators are quite small and restrictive
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I tried the suggestions and with the condenser out of the exhaust system for now, the steam plant operates perfectly. I am now not so sure there isn't a problem with the condenser or the chimney stack or both. With the condenser in the exhaust loop and the engine running at pretty brisk speed, water is dripping out of what Cheddar is calling the Offset Pipe Outlet to Drain. There seems to be enough pressure within the condenser that condensate is being forced out through this pipe. I do have this pipe plugged. That is where I see the water collecting on top of the condenser. It appears that the pipe in the chimney is not open enough to relieve the pressure in the condenser. I would include a picture of the setup, but it is hit or miss as to whether I can upload one. Is there a specific procedure for this? I use exactly the same procedure that I used to upload pictures in previous posts.
OOPS, I JUST FIGURED IT OUT!!!!!
(https://www.modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2025/02/14/P1050621.md.jpg)
Suggestion: Do as I do, install a sludgetank in the boat.
route the "offset drain pipe" to this tank, with a restriction in that line. Tune the restriction such that at full load only liquid, no or minimal steam escapes.
That will keep the moisture away from the steam exhaust, and it will keep your pond cleaner, as this condnsate can contain oil that would otherwise be blown out of the funnel, possibly staining the pond, endangering your club's environmental permits...
Here a vid with a provisional set-up...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUNN3FOJzQM
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All right, we‘re getting closer to the problem. Check ALL steam pipes between engine and stack/chimney (including the condenser internal ones) for free steam flow by sticking a piece of silicone tube on one end and blowing through. If you can blow through without any effort, then the steam will also run through as it should. If not, then the pipe is obstructed by anything. The pressure you can generate with your lung is about 0.1..0.2 bars (1.5..3 psi). Steam will escape a small engine at higher pressure. So if you can blow through easily, then the engine can do so, too.
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What you should also check is whether the steam line from the condenser to the chimney is attached to the correct of the two connections on the top side of the condensate trap. One of the two connections reaches almost to the bottom of the tank and is used to drain the condenser when the machine is running. Clamping the exhaust steam line to the chimney creates an overpressure in the condenser, which forces the condensate out. The hose at this outlet is normally sealed with a plug (as on your photo). The exhaust steam pipe is connected to the other connection, the extraction point of which is at the top of the condenser, so that no condensate enters the chimney unless the tank is really full. I myself never really know which of the connections is for what and always have to check this.
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Final report. I ran the engine with the Center out line from the condenser both to the chimney and left open. Water was still coming out of the drain. So tried something simple. I clipped the drain line with a very strong spring clip and voila, no water leakage coming from the drain line. The plug I was using was a screw that fit tightly but with the pressures involved, some steam was getting through the drain. With the drain line completely clamped off, the steam plant runs as it should at all speeds. The steam coming out of the exhaust line to the chimney appears to be exactly what it should be. I think all the problems are worked out.
Thanks for all the input to this. It is much appreciated.
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Final report. I ran the engine with the Center out line from the condenser both to the chimney and left open. Water was still coming out of the drain. So tried something simple. I clipped the drain line with a very strong spring clip and voila, no water leakage coming from the drain line. The plug I was using was a screw that fit tightly but with the pressures involved, some steam was getting through the drain. With the drain line completely clamped off, the steam plant runs as it should at all speeds. The steam coming out of the exhaust line to the chimney appears to be exactly what it should be. I think all the problems are worked out.
Thanks for all the input to this. It is much appreciated.
Wait until that collector is full of condensate...
See the vid in my previous post.
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Tried a few more runs this morning. I reinstalled the condenser and left the drain open and waited for output from the drain to be steam and very little moisture. This is per the Cheddar instructions that came with the condenser. I clamped the drain and let the engine run for about 5 minutes. The amount of water in the condenser was quite minimal so this technique appears to work and very little condensate buildup in the condenser. But now a recurring problem. With the engine throttle set at a low RPM, the steam pressure drops to 30PSI and stays there.
I am not going to put any more time into this steam plant. I built the MHB Project X, installed the steam plant designed for it and it runs perfectly. I also have an Aster Great Northern S2 engine, and it runs perfectly each time I fire it up. There is a problem with this Cheddar Steam Plant that I just do not understand. Perhaps in the hands of someone else who is quite adept at running steam plants, the problem might be solved. At my age, I just do not have the time to try and make this right.
The history of this steam plant is unknown. I first purchased it back around 2010 and just ran the engine on compressed air. It sat for a long time, and I ended up selling it. I managed to acquire another Mountfleet Cruiser and the person who I sold the steam plant to, sold it back to me. He ensured me that he never ran the steam plant. So, I have no idea what the actual condition of the steam plant was back in 2010, and it could very well be that it had problems.
Thanks once again for all the input, it is much appreciated.