Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Submarines => Topic started by: TomP on November 11, 2010, 10:30:19 pm
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Hi, wondering if anyone can help? I recently collected my OTW Designs S class and what a fantastic sub. My question is were the weld lines as prominent as on this model, i have a load of pictures but none of the lower hull showing them. I'm not to worried about them because i think it looks fantastic but would like to make it as realistic as possible. The picture is not my sub just the best i could find to show the weld lines, great looking sub whoever built it. Regards Tom
(http://s1.postimage.org/1b386505g/A_S_Class_95.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1b386505g/)
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http://www.moonrakers.com/submarines/S-Class-subs.mov (http://www.moonrakers.com/submarines/S-Class-subs.mov)
I think these pictures will answer your question
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Certainly did thank you. Tom
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Certainly did thank you. Tom
So which boat are you going to model after?
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I haven’t made my mind up 100% but thinking it will be HMS Stonehenge as I have a lot of pictures of that boat. Haven’t done much on it yet just put keys to hold the 2 pieces of hull together. Spent most of my time messing with pneumatics to raise and lower the periscopes, front dive planes and the bollards. I want to put as much detail in as I can, I know I should concentrate on getting it on (or under) the water but enjoy the building process. Haven’t got the WTC yet but I like the setup of the OTW one will wait and see which way to go with it. I bought a load of miniature brass hinges so I can open the hatches on the deck and build a crane which folds down into its hatch. Just need some spare time to get to work on it. Tom
(http://s2.postimage.org/22nnax46c/Image0041.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/22nnax46c/)
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Not sure if I am entirly right with this but I think the OTW "S" class is loosely based around a group two "S" class and if so the hull was riveted and not welded.
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The OTW S has a rear torpedo tube, which would make it a Group 3?
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Hi yeah taken this off wikipedia
HMS Stonehenge was an S class submarine of the Royal Navy, and part of the third group built of that class. She was built by Cammell Laird and launched on 23 March 1943.
She served in the Pacific, where she sank the Japanese merchant vessel Koryo Maru No.2 and the Japanese auxiliary minelayer Choko Maru. She left Trincomalee to patrol in the northern part of the Malacca Straits on 25 February 1944.[1] She was reported missing after failing to arrive at Ceylon on 20 March as expected. It is not known for sure what caused her sinking, but a mine was considered to be the most likely explanation.[2]
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sorry not all on there
Third Group
Armament: six forward 21-inch (533 mm) torpedo tubes, one aft
thirteen torpedoes
one three-inch (76 mm) gun (QF 4-inch on later boats)
one 20 mm cannon
three .303-calibre machine gun
The third and by far the most numerous group of S-class submarines consisted of 50 boats. They were the largest and most heavily armed of the S-class and required more men to crew. They were one knot faster on the surface, but two knots slower when submerged. Most of the group were built at the yards of either Scotts, of Greenock or Cammell Laird & Co Limited, of Birkenhead, with a handful being built at Chatham, or by Vickers Armstrong Ltd, of Barrow-in-Furness. Construction was carried out throughout the war, particularly between 1941 and 1945. Equipped with a greater fuel capacity than their predecessors, they operated much further afield, in the Mediterranean and in the Pacific far east.
There were two distinct subgroups. The first were boats of 842 tons, comprising those ordered under the 1939 War Emergency, 1940 and 1941 Programmes (except Sea Devil and Scotsman), plus the Sturdy and Stygian of the 1942 Programme; these carried an external stern torpedo tube in addition to the six bow tubes. The second subgroup were boats of 814 tons, comprising the Sea Devil and Scotsman of the 1941 Programme, plus those ordered under the 1942 and 1943 Programmes (except Sturdy and Stygian); these carried no external torpedo tube, but had a thicker welded pressure hull providing for an operational depth limit of 350 feet - compared with the 300 feet limit in the first subgroup.
Losses continued to be high. Nine ships; P222, Saracen, Sahib, Sickle, Simoom, Splendid, Stonehenge, Stratagem and Syrtis were lost during the war, and Shakespeare and Strongbow were so badly damaged that they were written off and scrapped. Many surviving ships remained in service after the war. Sportsman, by now transferred to the French navy, was lost off Toulon in 1951 and Sidon was sunk after a torpedo malfunction in 1955.
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Started on the S class over the weekend, spent most of the time drilling, filing and swearing >>:-(. Took ages cutting out the conning tower and then filing to get the floor in, but fits nicely now. I then started on the hull drilling out the torpedo openings and the forward flood holes. I soon got bored of all the drilling and filing so I decided to drill out the holes for the prop tubes and fitted the rear skeg and the A frame. I’ve only got another 166 holes to drill and file can’t wait!! Oh and I found the bow of the boat was not in line with the rest, so I made a cut down 1 side and straightened it out just need to fix it in that position. Only thing never done fibre glassing before so have been reading up on it before I brave to do it, I think I will try on something else first.
(http://s1.postimage.org/u0xcdoas/Image0041.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/u0xcdoas/)
(http://s2.postimage.org/2x60f1r38/Image0040.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2x60f1r38/)
(http://s4.postimage.org/34eold1ic/Image0052.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/34eold1ic/)
(http://s2.postimage.org/2x6gyf810/Image0051.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2x6gyf810/)
(http://s4.postimage.org/34f54qig4/Image0050.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/34f54qig4/)
(http://s2.postimage.org/2x6sj6nhg/Image0048.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2x6sj6nhg/)
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If she is a Cammell Laird boat, contact the museum as they took photo's of all the boat's that they built before and after they left the slip,
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Built by Cammell Laird 1943
Geoff
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Hi, I did a little bit more to cold to be in the workshop so made a mess on the kitchen table. Ive fitted the floor into the conning tower used styrene C channel to sit the brass photoetch on. I bought a GRP kit from Halfords to carry out repair on the bow picture 5 above. Simple question how best to go about it?? never done it before seems quite simple but don't want to mess it up any help I would be very gratefull. Regards Tom
(http://s1.postimage.org/2kzraqjpg/DSCN1421_1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2kzraqjpg/)
(http://s1.postimage.org/2l017ymo4/DSCN1422_1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2l017ymo4/)
(http://s1.postimage.org/2l07u40n8/DSCN1423_1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2l07u40n8/)
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GRP work is relatively straightforward. This isn't the best weather to be doing it though- it helps if you work in the summer months, although you can do GRP work in colder conditions, you generally need a special accelerator to really get some extra heat into the resin.
Doing it indoors is likely to get you into bother, unless you're single (or want to be) as polyester resin pongs to high heaven.
The main things are to cut your cloth/matting before laying up, mix the resin and catalyst thoroughly and in the correct ratio, key up well any surfaces you are bonding to, and don't over do it with the resin- use just enough to wet out the cloth/matting well.
Whereabouts are you based?
Andy
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The Halford kits are pretty good, from my experience.
As Andy says the main problem will be getting things warm enough and not smelling the place out!
In practice, you could work in a shed or outhouse with some local heat to get room temperature and you only need to achieve this while the resin is setting (should no be more than a few minutes.) Keep the resin somewhere warm until you need it.
You will find that the resin bonds very well, particulary if you key (roughen) the surface you are bonding to.
A cut down paintbrush is useful for "stippling" the resin into the mat. Rubber gloves and some acetone for cleaning everything also. (Watch the fire risk!)
And resin is easy to apply but hard to remove so mask off areas to avoid runs.
So low temperatures are not a complete bar to work.
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The OTW S has a rear torpedo tube, which would make it a Group 3?
Also note, if they had a rear tube, then they also had only a 3" gun, to lighten the weight. I'm fairly sure some class III boats didn't have a stern tube. It was an individual choice, depending on the circumstances.
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Not had much time lately so work on the S class has suffered. I’ve only been working on the conning tower, I have put a plasticard lining in to make it nice and smooth and added some up right supports. I’m looking forward to having some time off work and hopefully getting quite a lot done. Just need to save some pennies now for the dive module, unfortunately Santa can’t afford it!!
(http://s2.postimage.org/32gak83qc/DSCN1455.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/32gak83qc/)
(http://s2.postimage.org/32gnsivok/DSCN1456.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/32gnsivok/)
(http://s2.postimage.org/32gueo9no/DSCN1457.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/32gueo9no/)
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I haven’t made my mind up 100% but thinking it will be HMS Stonehenge as I have a lot of pictures of that boat.
I collect photo scans of the S Class boats. If you have them scanned, I'd love copies please. I'll send you a CD of my collection as a swap.
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Wow can't believe it’s been over a year since I did anything on the S class. Due to a child and moving house it has been sat for a while with nothing much done, but I have cleaned it off ready to carry on. Still can't afford the dive module so for now going to make it a surface runner. Bought some 100mm acrylic tube so will fit this in for now with all the running bits in it. Made up the front cable well and fitted it to the deck also drilled and filed a few more holes. Just need to fix the front now after cutting it in half although it has straightened it out it was only 3 or 4mm probably wasn’t worth worrying about.
Don’t know if anyone out there has any pictures of the conning tower of an S class, I have searched the net and not really found any decent pictures of it just want to add a bit more detail.
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Any particular reason for going for 100mm diameter tubing?
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Hi Andy, no reason really just so I could get the 2 motors side by side, also I think (possibly wrongly) that the OTW dive module for this is 100mm so the saddles would be ready to drop that in at some point. I have been told that the module needs to be quite high up in this sub to get the correct water line might have that wrong also but will speak to Bob about that closer to the time. Cheers Tom
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All the OTW modules I have seen have been 110mm, but if you can squeeze everything into the 100mm tube, that will work just fine. Anything that sits above the waterline needs to be displaced by the ballast tank, so if you want to keep the tank volume as small as possible, you should site the cylinder so that it sits at, or just below the waterline. This helps maximise static stability by keeping the buoyant forces as high as possible, and also gives you the option of siting batteries and/or lead ballast underneath the cylinder to get the weight as low down as you can.
You should take a look at Grimreapers OTW Vanguard thread on this forum for some invaluable tips on how to grow your own module.
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Hi there. You don't have to spend a fortune to make your model submerge. In the old day's [before acrylic modules] we just used to pump water in to a sealed ballast tank, which was situated in the centre of the model. you will have to make the ballast tank quite large as the water entering it will compress the air inside,and will not fill completely, and You will have to add baffles in to the tank as well to slow the water from "slopping" around. The tank will have to be big enough to support the weight of every thing above the water line, in you case, about 1.5kg's I guess. I have a really good water pump [12volt] that you can have for free, if it will help. This system will make your model "sink" but as for running under the surface, you will need some sort of pitch controller on the rear planes, as the water in the tank will move around. Whilst on that subject, I think I am right in saying that, if your model hit's a cold spot of water it will lose some buoyancy, where as if it hit a warm spot it will rise slightly. Trial and error, have a go your self, you will not only learn a lot, but you will get a great deal of satisfaction. There were some articles written in mmi some years ago [about 15?] by a guy called Martyn Hartshorn] if you can get hold of them, they will be a great help to you. I am only trying to help here, I am no expert, I can tell you a little more about the orrigins of you hull if you like? Any way, if I can help, let me know.
Have fun.
Phill
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I think I am right in saying that, if your model hit's a cold spot of water it will lose some buoyancy, where as if it hit a warm spot it will rise slightly.
Other way around- cold water is denser and provides more upthrust.
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Thank's for that :-)
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I just had a thought, regarding your search for photo's of the conning tower, I am sure that I have some of the late Bernie woods s class model sub. I took them when I visited him at his home, he was a really nice guy,submarine mad! I will have a look through my pile tomorrow for you.
Cheers
Phill
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I hope this works! thie was one of my sub's, about 15years ago.
(http://s14.postimage.org/drhm2hbb1/type_7c_132nd.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/drhm2hbb1/)
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Now where do I know that boat from? Hmm...
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Sorry Tomp, having trouble finding the pic's of Bernies S class sub for you. This picture has been above my work bench for about 20 something years. I'll get the missus to try to find them when she get's home later.
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(http://s18.postimage.org/uya4756md/Bernie_and_a_young_me.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/uya4756md/)
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I managed to find a picture of Bernies s class tower, I knew I had one some where, it was driving me nut's!!! Not bad this for a 1/50th model, before the day's of photo etching.
(http://s17.postimage.org/al6gf7zfv/Bernies_s_class_tower.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/al6gf7zfv/)
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A wonderful picture Phil, many thanks for hunting it out. I remember the language as Bernie built that, you've never heard a man swear as much as he did making all the tiny fittings...good thing I'm not a religious man!
Regards,
Rich
(did you ever meet Dave Stevens and his son, John...they were close neighbours of Bernies?)
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Have you checked your messages?
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Hi, Thank you for the pictures. I think I have a picture of this boat in the water I found on the internet sometime ago nicely detailed. I will have a look see if it the same Cheers Tom
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Hi there. You don't have to spend a fortune to make your model submerge. In the old day's [before acrylic modules] we just used to pump water in to a sealed ballast tank, which was situated in the centre of the model. you will have to make the ballast tank quite large as the water entering it will compress the air inside,and will not fill completely, and You will have to add baffles in to the tank as well to slow the water from "slopping" around. The tank will have to be big enough to support the weight of every thing above the water line, in you case, about 1.5kg's I guess. I have a really good water pump [12volt] that you can have for free, if it will help. This system will make your model "sink" but as for running under the surface, you will need some sort of pitch controller on the rear planes, as the water in the tank will move around. Whilst on that subject, I think I am right in saying that, if your model hit's a cold spot of water it will lose some buoyancy, where as if it hit a warm spot it will rise slightly. Trial and error, have a go your self, you will not only learn a lot, but you will get a great deal of satisfaction. There were some articles written in mmi some years ago [about 15?] by a guy called Martyn Hartshorn] if you can get hold of them, they will be a great help to you. I am only trying to help here, I am no expert, I can tell you a little more about the orrigins of you hull if you like? Any way, if I can help, let me know.
Have fun.
Phill
Hi Spooksgone, well I bought some 100mm acrylic tube a few weeks ago and have been thinking about trying to do it myself like you said, love messing about trying to make things work. One thing I was stuck on is what pump? I have read lots of different people opinions and got confused seems there are a few types, I have seen them on ebay but I have bought Chinese stuff before there is a reason its that cheep!! Control wise there seems to be a fair few failsafes and pitch controllers available would have to save for those. Tom
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What sort of Diving times are you looking for? Unlike modern nukes, WWII boats could crash dive very quickly if required. If you want to ape that, then it will dictate your diving system.
I think the ballast volume for these boats is around the 1.5 litre mark, Bob Dimmack at OTW would be able to confirm or deny that, or you can find it out via empirical methods.
What sort of pumped ballast system are you looking at- a sealed tank pressurized system, a bag, or a vented tank?
Pump wise, you can use centrifugal or positive displacement pumps. Peristaltics will be very slow unless you use either a very large pump, or run lots in parallel- impractical. Centrifugal types move a lot of water very quickly, but are unidrectional. They're used in Sheerline modules, so that's a fairly good pedigree. Geared pumps are popular, although they don't match centrifugal types for speed, they can run both ways and reach high pressure easily. For small to medium size models, the little orange/red geared pumps are widely used. Unfortunately production has shifted from Europe to China, and quality is now a little variable- they seem to have tinkered with the plastic used for construction, but they're available cheaply on ebay for about a seven quid. I would say you'd need to fit two in parallel unless you want to wait over a minute for your boat to dive.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BN-Universal-12V-Lucas-Type-Windscreen-Washer-Pump-/290716827194?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item43b012be3a
Kavan produce a geared pump, it has more capacity than the orange pumps, and uses brass instead of plastic gears. You can also purchase new seals for this pump, so it should last a very long time in a model. It is well regarded as a rugged bit of kit, and pumps about 1.8 litres a minute at 12 volts, so a dive time of about 45 seconds, or fit two in parallel if that is too slow. They tend to cost about £20-30 depending on where you buy them.
http://www.kavanrc.com/IndexText/0190E.html
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I managed to find a picture of Bernies s class tower, I knew I had one some where, it was driving me nut's!!! Not bad this for a 1/50th model, before the day's of photo etching.
(http://s17.postimage.org/al6gf7zfv/Bernies_s_class_tower.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/al6gf7zfv/)
Not sure if this is the same boat looks it though nice boat
(http://s7.postimage.org/ryyarnz6f/n8109110.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ryyarnz6f/)
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What sort of Diving times are you looking for? Unlike modern nukes, WWII boats could crash dive very quickly if required. If you want to ape that, then it will dictate your diving system.
I think the ballast volume for these boats is around the 1.5 litre mark, Bob Dimmack at OTW would be able to confirm or deny that, or you can find it out via empirical methods.
What sort of pumped ballast system are you looking at- a sealed tank pressurized system, a bag, or a vented tank?
Pump wise, you can use centrifugal or positive displacement pumps. Peristaltics will be very slow unless you use either a very large pump, or run lots in parallel- impractical. Centrifugal types move a lot of water very quickly, but are unidrectional. They're used in Sheerline modules, so that's a fairly good pedigree. Geared pumps are popular, although they don't match centrifugal types for speed, they can run both ways and reach high pressure easily. For small to medium size models, the little orange/red geared pumps are widely used. Unfortunately production has shifted from Europe to China, and quality is now a little variable- they seem to have tinkered with the plastic used for construction, but they're available cheaply on ebay for about a seven quid. I would say you'd need to fit two in parallel unless you want to wait over a minute for your boat to dive.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BN-Universal-12V-Lucas-Type-Windscreen-Washer-Pump-/290716827194?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item43b012be3a
Kavan produce a geared pump, it has more capacity than the orange pumps, and uses brass instead of plastic gears. You can also purchase new seals for this pump, so it should last a very long time in a model. It is well regarded as a rugged bit of kit, and pumps about 1.8 litres a minute at 12 volts, so a dive time of about 45 seconds, or fit two in parallel if that is too slow. They tend to cost about £20-30 depending on where you buy them.
http://www.kavanrc.com/IndexText/0190E.html
45 seconds would be ok but like the idea of two pumps. At work I do a lot of electrical work in computer suites for banks and government so it’s all dual supplies etc for resilience so if something fails there is a back up, so I would adopt the same idea here its cost a fair bit so far so do not want to lose it in the local lake. I know its extra weight, space and drain on the battery but could use it as a backup not a running system. I would go for the sealed tank as it’s nice and simple and like you said pumps are quite cheap. Will look into end caps for the tube I’m guessing Marks model bits would be a good place to start. Had a chance to do some more work recently so detailing the conning tower. I have made all the towers removable along with the binnacle make it easier for painting. Not happy with the hand rail its far too large so have some smaller ones to fit from modelling timbers.
(http://s13.postimage.org/elxb9ce43/13052012069.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/elxb9ce43/)
(http://s13.postimage.org/eh2qr5lkj/13052012066.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/eh2qr5lkj/)
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Not sure if this is the same boat looks it though nice boat
(http://s7.postimage.org/ryyarnz6f/n8109110.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ryyarnz6f/)
Yep, that's Bernie's Stoic...I can't remember if that was taken at Plumpton or Sandown Show.
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Hi guy's. I reckon that must have been Plumton, I can't ever remember car's by the boating pool at Sandown. Tomp, you seem to be getting on well with the s class, keep at it, and you will have a hell of a model when it is finished. And all so, you seem to have started a thread which has brought back a few good memories for some of us. I don't want to confuse thing's to much, but this is one of the water pumps that I have used, and they are very good. As I said before, if you want this pump to start experimenting, pm me your address details and I will send it too you free of charge. can't get much cheaper than that eh! They can be brought from caravan accessory places. Got to go now, working on, working depth charges for my model destroyer, got to keep the u boat's out of the model boating lake!!!!!!!!
Cheers
Phil
(http://s17.postimage.org/sxrub8ejv/Water_pump.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/sxrub8ejv/)
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That looks like the Shurflo nautilus pump that OTW use in their dive modules.
They pump either way, and the flow rate is great, but I don't think they work at the higher pressures needed for a selaed tank-
http://pdf.directindustry.com/pdf/shurflo/transfer-pumps-winterizing-pumps-nautilus-10-gpm/17320-68904-_2.html.
If you look at OTW modules, the tank vents into the fore and aft dry spaces (probes are fitted into the tank with electronics to shut the pump off so you don't flood the module), so the pressure never reaches more than a few psi. With a sealed tank you need to be able to pump up beyond 50psi to get 70% of the tank full, a geared pump will make that pressure easily, but looking at the chart this pump will stall beyond 15 psi.
You could have the pump connected to a ballast bag housed inside the wtc. By using this method, you bypass the need for probes and electronics to control water level, and at the same time becuase the air is being compressed inside the whole module instead of just the tank, you keep the pressure down, so the pump can do it's job easily.
Suitable bags would be the types you can find on ebay used for urine (yes I know!!). There are models available with 2L capacity, which is more than you require, but the bag can be located inside a smaller plastic cylinder with a couple of holes drilled in. This cylinder constricts the volume to what you require, and holds the ballast in the correct position.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10-Urine-Bag-2000ml-Anti-reflux-PRIVATE-LISTING?item=270713571849&cmd=ViewItem&_trksid=p5197.m185&_trkparms=algo%3DSIC.NPJS%26itu%3DI%252BUA%26otn%3D12%26pmod%3D270727235138%26po%3DLVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D8783153804173554039
You will need a shut off valve to prevent water pushing back through the pump. A servo pinch valve might be a bit ambitious- these pumps have large bore tubing. You can purchase solenoid control valves designed for water (don't use ones for gass, they tend to corrode).
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12V-DC-1-2-Electronic-Solenoid-Valve-Water-Air-/300480064600?pt=UK_BOI_Industrial_Automation_Control_ET&hash=item45f601ec58
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Hi there subculture. That is right, it is all coming back to me now. With you expertise on this subject, do you think that you could come up with a system, that people could use in there sub's. The price of ready made modules and dive systems, is what is putting me of from going back to model submarines. You could take orders, get the part's needed, write, draw, the instructions, and the customer could assemble it all on there work bench. I am no expert at all on electronics, I just enjoy the building and end result. What do you think?
All the best.
Cheers.
Phil
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Ah I think I’m starting to understand a bit more. I thought the OTW module was a sealed tube but in fact it displaces the air into the other sections hence not such a high pressure pump is needed. I'm assuming that the probes are level sensors that stop the pump and close a solenoid valve. Maybe a silly question but hopefully you will put me right, would a car or motorbike fuel pump be up to it? They should be able to cope with the higher pressure not sure if they will work in reverse though or what the flow rate would be like. I can understand why the pre built WTC are expensive there is a lot of design work and technology that go into them, just I can't afford the £800 plus for one the wife wants a holiday.
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Hi guy's. I reckon that must have been Plumton, I can't ever remember car's by the boating pool at Sandown. Tomp, you seem to be getting on well with the s class, keep at it, and you will have a hell of a model when it is finished. And all so, you seem to have started a thread which has brought back a few good memories for some of us. I don't want to confuse thing's to much, but this is one of the water pumps that I have used, and they are very good. As I said before, if you want this pump to start experimenting, pm me your address details and I will send it too you free of charge. can't get much cheaper than that eh! They can be brought from caravan accessory places. Got to go now, working on, working depth charges for my model destroyer, got to keep the u boat's out of the model boating lake!!!!!!!!
Cheers
Phil
(http://s17.postimage.org/sxrub8ejv/Water_pump.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/sxrub8ejv/)
Hi Phil, Well finally I'm getting a bit more time to work on it have to say they are very impressive Subs from OTW I want a type 7 when I finish this. I bet that’s fun live depth charges, my dad used to be a member of Gloucestershire model boat club and another member I think his name was Stan Robinson did the same just used a little too much one time blew his destroyer up, thankfully wasn't too much damage great model builder also I think he was into subs can't remember to well it was a long time ago. Messed about making running torpedoes for little while using reed switches and scalextric motors and AA batteries, need to concentrate on the sub first then will play with that. I will PM you my address really appreciate the help. Cheers Tom
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Good grief, there's a name from the past...Stan Robinson. I new him well, from way back...he had a lovely Darnell S class, then bought an Engel Gato from John Robinson...it was absolutely chockablock with electronics.
Rich
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Found a fuel pump with these details might be a bit power hungry though but can work around that also read that fuel pump will be fine to reverse could be wrong though
SPEC:
Inlet - 12mm push on
Outlet - 8mm push on
Flow rate - approx. 135ltr/hr @ 3bar
Max pressure - 8.5bar
Am I right in thinking if it will do 135ltr in an hour it will do 2.25ltr in a minute so less than a minute dive time if I have a 2ltr sealed tank?
So if that was controlled via 2 DPST relays with 5v DC coil I could switch it forwards and backwards from 2 switched outputs off the receiver, and if I double up off the live outputs from the relay to a 12v solenoid valve I can open and close that also. To stop the pump when the tank is full all I need is float switch to break the supply from the fill relay to the pump and Bobs your uncle.
That was it I remember Stans sub being brown can't remember what it was though. Yeah he was very good with the electronics side of things.
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I'm assuming that the probes are level sensors that stop the pump and close a solenoid valve.
Maybe a silly question but hopefully you will put me right, would a car or motorbike fuel pump be up to it?
There are three probes, two at the top, one at the bottom, the controller stops the pump when empty or full and actuates the valve. The Shurflo nautilus pumps don't like being run dry. With a sealed tank or a bag, you don't need all these electronics, which simplifies things, and reduces cost. Another advantage is that you're not compressing humid air into the dry spaces. A sealed tank will need to be bigger than the equivalent on an OTW boat, as the latter can use about 90% of the volume of the tank, whereas the former generally about 70%, a bag can typically pump to the capacity allowed it by a constraining jacket.
Fuel pumps aren't any good really. They make good pressure, but they're designed to pump fuel, not water, so the internals tend to corrode if you use them in submarines.
If you have the time, tools and talent, building a dive module needn't be an expensive process. The cost of components for a water pump system is typically under £30, the main expense being the pump itself. The rest of the module is just sheet material and the tubing. You can save a bundle by buying offcuts, or using salvaged materials.
PVC tubing is much cheaper than acrylic- often free if you keep an eye on builders skips- and much tougher, but is typically filled, so opaque. Most people like the concept of a transparent cylinder so they can see all the stuff working, which means acrylic, polycarbonate or unfilled PVC. In the UK the latter two are expensive and more difficult to source, which is why acrylic is more widely used.
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Hi there guy's. Stan Robinson, I remember the name really well. He has made some fantastic models, he all way's used to be in the model boat mag's, years ahead of his time. I all so heard, the he "watted up" his tx so much, that when he switched on, every body's tv in a 3 mile radius went out!!! I'm sure that he used to sail his boats, and ships at the reservoir at Bournville. oh, and all so that he used connect his tx up to a tv areail by the lake side! Fantastic bloke, a real inspiration to me at the time.
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Got myself a fuel pump for a Mercedes C240 for £20 tried it yesterday to pump out water from a bucket good flow rate just need to work out why it won't pump backwards. I think it might be because it primes going forwards but working in reverse doesn't will keep playing
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Got myself a fuel pump for a Mercedes C240 for £20 tried it yesterday to pump out water from a bucket good flow rate just need to work out why it won't pump backwards. I think it might be because it primes going forwards but working in reverse doesn't will keep playing
Fuel pumps for injected engines are generally roller type where the rollers turn in a chamber and compress as they turn to force the fluid out and it is due to the shape of the chamber only work in 1 direction and usually of metal construction and without fuel to lubricate the parts as Andy says you will find they will corrode very quickly
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Fuel pumps for injected engines are generally roller type where the rollers turn in a chamber and compress as they turn to force the fluid out and it is due to the shape of the chamber only work in 1 direction and usually of metal construction and without fuel to lubricate the parts as Andy says you will find they will corrode very quickly
Ah I see, Ive taken the old pipes off and it looks like the turbine on the front of a jet engine inside, lots of very small blades which are not angled in any direction if you understand what I mean. I will try get a picture of it onto here. Will mess around over the weekend see what I can do with it if anything take on board about the corrosion see what happens to it
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Hi there Tomp. I have posted the water pump to you today, it should be with you about Thursday. I had to send it second class, as it cost me a small fortune to send the photo's of u 505 over to the states!!! He should be quiet happy when he opens the packet though. Happy to help.
Phil
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Hi there Tomp. I have posted the water pump to you today, it should be with you about Thursday. I had to send it second class, as it cost me a small fortune to send the photo's of u 505 over to the states!!! He should be quiet happy when he opens the packet though. Happy to help.
Phil
Hi Phil, Pump arrived today many thanks really appreciate the help Tom
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No excuses now then!
Be interesting to know if those nautilus pumps will pump against a vacuum. The spec says they'll pump up to about one atmosphere (max). I use a 500ml pop bottle to test out pumps. They take pressure well and are quick and easy to adapt. I just drill a hole in the cap, hot glue in a piece of metal tubing and attach a piece of pipe which is then connected to the pump being tested.
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No excuses now then!
Be interesting to know if those nautilus pumps will pump against a vacuum. The spec says they'll pump up to about one atmosphere (max). I use a 500ml pop bottle to test out pumps. They take pressure well and are quick and easy to adapt. I just drill a hole in the cap, hot glue in a piece of metal tubing and attach a piece of pipe which is then connected to the pump being tested.
Great minds think alike, just waiting for the glue to dry. Quick question looking into the size of the WTC if I made the whole thing 1 meter long and the center section the sealed part which holds the water, how big would it have to be? Is there a calculation to use to work it out or just trial and error also do I need to know the weight of the sub or WTC to work it all out.
Nearly finished the conning tower, the brass decks are glued down and drilled out all the holes, need to fill the edges to the deck and then it’s down to the running gear. Getting there made all the items in the conning tower removable along with the tower itself make it easier to store and transport. Oh found out the fuel pump I have uses a turbine not the rollers but has a check valve that’s why it won’t pump in reverse but now I have the pump kindly donated by Spooksgone (Phil) Thank you everyone for all your help really enjoying building this sub can't wait to get it running.
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Any time, happy to help.
Phil
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Working out ballast tank volume is a frequently asked question. The simplest way is to ask someone with the same model what volume their tank is, or perhaps Bob at OTW can give you some pointers, as they supply a wtc/module for this boat. I would think it will be somewhere in the region of 1.5 litres, but that's just an estimate.
Using weight is a bad idea for calculating ballast tanks. You need to think about displacement.
For a start it's difficult to weigh just part of your model, unless it happens to conveniently split right at the required surfaced waterline. Secondly most materials used in model submarine construction are denser than water e.g GRP, metals etc. Thus if you use weight as your method, you will tend to wind up with a ballast tank larger than required, which is better than it being too small. But if it's a big margin of error, that means longer filling times, more power used etc. Conversely, if the model is made from wood, the tank will likely be too small-, and the boat will not make a scale waterline.
Many thermoplastics like ABS , polystyrene, PMMA etc. tend to be about the same density as water. If your model is constructed from one of these, and the shape is relatively straightforward e.g. a cylinder then you can probably work out the volume of the tank using a bit of maths.
However a boat like the S-class is not a simple shape, plus it uses mixed media- brass decks and hand laid GRP, the latter tends to have a variable thickness owing to the nature of construction, which complicates matters further, and brass is more than eight times the density of water!
The most accurate way to find out the right volume of tank for this boat (and just about any other sub) is by empirical means.
Build the boat up, sans paint etc.
Put it in a test tank, and being denser than water it will sink. Add buoyancy- polystyrene foam is the best material to use. You will need to make a cradle of some sort to keep all the foam in place. This can also be made from foam, as it doesn't need to be super strong, but you should ballast it down so that it is neutrally buoyant, else it will skew your result.
When the boat is neutrally buoyant. e.g the boat sits just on or below the water surface, add more buoyancy below the waterline until the desired waterline is reached.
When you reach that point, remove the foam used to get the boat from neutral buoyancy to surface trim, work out it's volume- easiest if you cut the foam in uniform blocks e.g. rectangles. Increase that figure by 15-20% and you have the ballast tank volume required. The extra margin allows for differences in water temperature, extra volume added from applying paint finishes, and also gives you the ability to statically dive the boat by producing a little down thrust.
All this assumes that the WTC sits below the waterline with the boat surfaced.
Once you know the volume, you then need to decide what sort of ballast system you are going to adopt, as this dictates the size of tank needed. In your case we know you are going for a water pump based system. If you are going to be using the nautilus pump, then that rules out a sealed tank, as these pumps can only make 15 psi max, and that will only half fill the tank. With a 100mm diameter cylinder the tank would need to be over 43cm long assuming 1.5 litre volume, and that would pose stability problems I think.
You could go for the OTW type system which vents into the dry space, but I would advise some sort of sensing to ensure the pump doesn't overfill the tank and flood your module. This could be a simple float switch if you don't fancy the electronic probe system.
Another system would be to pump into a vented tank to get the boat to decks awash, then use a smaller trim tank (mounted inside the main ballast tank) which could use any type of ballast system to take the boat fully under. This more accurately reflects fullsize practice.
There are other variations on this theme.
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Thank you Subculture, need to get building then so I can start on this! Because I'm going to try use the pump Phil has given me I decided to take the fuel pump apart see how it is made etc, majority of the parts are plastic and it looks like it’s a combination of a turbine and roller type pump, the other thing I was quite surprised about is that the fuel actually passes over the armature and the brushes. It does have a check valve in the end that’s why it wouldn’t pump backwards the pump is rather simple but effective I suppose.
(http://s18.postimage.org/h5b13mjwl/2012_06_14_001.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/h5b13mjwl/)
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That pump has seen a fair bit of action judging by the wear on the commutator. I think they run the fuel through the pump to keep it cool. There is no risk of ignition from commutator arching because there is an absence of air. Anyway you can see quite a few of the parts are made from steel and alumnium- not a great combination for pumping water.
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Conning tower awaiting a wheel to finish, working on the top casing now fitting escape hatches and torpedo loading tube etc drilled loads of holes fed up of drilling holes in fibre glass >>:-(
(http://s17.postimage.org/7gnkhmyy3/2012_06_15_002.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/7gnkhmyy3/)
(http://s17.postimage.org/t4cis2zcb/2012_06_15_001.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/t4cis2zcb/)
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That's looking good Tomp. How much longer do you think it is going to take then? I will love to come and watch you sail it.
Phil
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Thank you Phil, well I'm kind of cheating I started drilling and filing the flood holes on the casing but they are all over the place so I'm having the flood holes cut out of plasticard. I'm hoping this will make them all uniform and of the same size also this will save a fair bit of weight as I can cut away a large amount of fibre glass. These should arrive next week sometime so I can finish that then i'ts onto the running gear and that's what is going to take the longest as I will need to save for a few bits. My aim has been to finish it this year we will see hopefully Santa will be generous this year!! I will have the sub running soon hopefully but will just be surface runner, I only have a 2 chanel radio at the moment and I want to mix both props while turning as i'ts a long boat and only have a small pond, otherwise it will prob look like a scene out of Austin Powers, Backward forward backward forward! So will be saving for a new radio and speed controller etc. I will have the majority of items in place within the WTC just won't work for a little while. Tom
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Don't OTW supply a photoetched stencil for the slots like they do for some of their other kits e.g. Type VII and Surcouf?
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Hi Tomp. Have you brought the mixer switch yet? I have a brand new Hunter systems mixer switch, still in the box, with the destructions. I know it will do what you want it too, as I had one of these in my type 7c u boat a few years back. Let me know if you want it, no charge. As for the radio, there must be some one out there who has a spare 4 channel radio sitting idle.
Cheers
Phil
(http://s17.postimage.org/ikvy1nu1n/Mixer_switch.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ikvy1nu1n/)
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Don't OTW supply a photoetched stencil for the slots like they do for some of their other kits e.g. Type VII and Surcouf?
Yeah there are few stainless steel ones supplied, I caused the problem by not securing them in place tight enough so they moved, next problem was my Dremel bit started opening up the stencil slightly so the holes started getting larger so I got angry with myself for being so careless and came up with the idea of having them laser cut out of plasticard. Will wait and see what it turns out like
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Sounds like you're going to hard with the dremel. I find glue guns are handy for tacking things like that in place. Then just release with a sharp knife .
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Sounds like you're going to hard with the dremel. I find glue guns are handy for tacking things like that in place. Then just release with a sharp knife .
Yeah I rushed it and now kick myself for not taking more time. Got my cut outs today 2 types 1 done by water cutting and the other by laser. The water cut ones need a little more cleaning up than the laser cut ones but both are to the sizes I required really pleased with them. Got both done as a comparison really as they cost the same just wanted to see the differences between them.
(http://s18.postimage.org/utv9azfw5/2012_06_26_021.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/utv9azfw5/)
(http://s18.postimage.org/pmerk9ool/2012_06_26_020.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/pmerk9ool/)
Phil I will buy the mixer off you if you don’t require it you have been kind enough already, I bought a load of bits in a box off Ebay and found a Mtroniks mixer in there but It’s for tank steering so no good for what I want. Also received a few parts for the WTC just need some time to work on it now.
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Hi all. I will post you the mixer when I can. I don't want any thing for it. Tassie48 has sent me loads of quality stuff from Austrailia for my next project for free, I'm happy to pay it forward. I used to cut 10 slot's out in an evening, and then move on to nicer job's. That way the "chore" was made a lot easier.
Cheers
Phil
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Mixer switch sent,, it should be with you by Wednesday.
Cheers
Phil
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The sub so far, top casing now secured to lower using 5mm stainless steel rod so it can be removed anytime, starting to fix the flood holes
(http://s13.postimage.org/69wqqh7qr/2012_06_28_033.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/69wqqh7qr/)
(http://s15.postimage.org/jrhjl9mdj/2012_06_28_034.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/jrhjl9mdj/)
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That is one gorgeous sub. I like the way your flood holes came out.
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Thank you the kind comment OTW Designs do make a fantastic looking sub.
Spent a few hours on it today, I decided to remove the weld lines as I will try put these on when airbrushing the sub. I have also started putting on the flood holes I had made they look great really really pleased with them.
(http://s7.postimage.org/o70dmgy1j/2012_07_14_042.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/o70dmgy1j/)
(http://s7.postimage.org/yicqf4pqv/2012_07_14_044.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/yicqf4pqv/)
(http://s7.postimage.org/nwsv34jfb/2012_07_14_043.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/nwsv34jfb/)
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Ah, I see said the blind man......Those look EVEN better!
HAve you figured out a paint scheme for her?
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Hi Salmon, Yeah I have been basing this on HMS Stonehenge as best as I can. As you can see in this picture that's what I'm going to aim to do dark grey deck, light grey sides and dark grey hull.
(http://s10.postimage.org/4qdjr0ztx/HMS_Stonehenge.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/4qdjr0ztx/)
Got a question I need help with, Started drawing the WTC and checking it will fit in the sub, I was thinking of using stainless steel rods externally like the Sheerline module but I can't fit it into the sub the larger end cap discs will hit the casing. So they will have to go internal but how do I seal these? also how do I seal this disc to the tube tried a few places asking about an O ring or flat seal, they were not interested in helping. Anyone know of somewhere that might be more helpful?
I have got a choice of either 100mm diameter tube or 120mm, I think I'm going to struggle fitting both motors side by side in the 100mm but will try.
Going to put the batteries inside the WTC as there will be not a lot of room under the WTC if I have to keep it as low as possible in the sub
Again thank you for any help Tom
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Gnerally o-rings are used for sealing endcaps. Sheerline use a custom flat seal, not sure if there is any advantage in those, I've always found o-rings work fine, and they're easy to get hold of. There are two ways of sealing and endcap with an o-ring, radial compression and axial compression.
Radial compression seals on the inside of the tube, the advantage is that the the seal is compressed without any requirment for rods to pinch up the caps. The disadvantage can be the tubing itself- often far from perfectly round on the inside, so you can get leaks if you're not careful. This is especially the case with larger diameter tubing. Examples of commercial WTC's with axial compression are Caswell Sub Drivers and Ron Perrot's piston tank WTC's
Axial compression seals up against the end of the tube. This is usually machined for a nice flat edge. This is how Sheerline and OTW seal their modules, OTW use o-rings, Sheerline do their own thing with seals as mentioned eariler.
You need rods to compress the seals, three is plenty although some use four. To seal the ends of if running internally, you can use o-rings again or flat rubber washers e.g. tap washers. Not that you will need capped nuts to avoid water working it 's way past the seals via capilliary reaction. OTW use very nice custom machined knurled nuts. A cheaper and no less effective alternative is to use brass domed nuts (try screwfix) with washers soldered on the end, which hep spread the load, and give a nice flat surface for the seal to compress against.
For o-rings you can try the following suppliers. Most use either Nitrile or silicone The latter are softer, but a little more fragile.
http://www.simplybearings.co.uk
http://www.polymax.co.uk
I would recommend the following sizes of o-ring seal (o-rings are always specified by internal diameter)-
100mm diameter tubing radial compression- 90mm diameter 3mm thick
100mm diameter tubing axial compression- 95-96mm diameter 3mm thick
120mm diameter tubing radial compression- 108mm diameter 3mm thick
120mm diameter tubing axial compression- 114mm diameter 3mm thick
Note that if you choose radial compression, you will need to machine a groove into the endcap. This groove should be toleranced to allow the o-ring to extrude as it is squeezed, as the rubber will not compress. The amount of squeeze can be from 15-30% of o-ring thickness, I recommend the lower figure, and personally aim for 15-20%. Size to the following for both tube sizes-
Groove width 3.7-4mm, depth 2.1-2.5mm
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Thank you Andy will have a look and get some ordered.
Done a little bit more not a lot of time at the moment slowly getting there
(http://s7.postimage.org/wprsdwr2f/2012_07_24_049.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/wprsdwr2f/)
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(http://s7.postimage.org/ff1dlvzev/2012_07_24_047.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ff1dlvzev/)
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collected my next project today, makes my s class look very small
(http://s9.postimage.org/7pswp8m8b/2012_07_28_052.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/7pswp8m8b/)
(http://s13.postimage.org/tnhr5n9b7/2012_07_28_053.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/tnhr5n9b7/)
(http://s8.postimage.org/f9lj82bdd/2012_07_28_054.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/f9lj82bdd/)
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That's going to be one big model. I am pretty sure that the type 21's where mostly of welded construction, so you won't have to start knocking out about 38 thousand rivet heads. I had a 1/48th scale type 21, brought it from a guy called Maurice Rickett, fitted it with r and r tank's. That will certainley go well under the water, very stream lined. Nice. Where did you aquire it from?
Cheers
Phil
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Maurice Rickett? Now there's a name from the past, Phil...ex Yorkshire policeman if I remember correctly, he was in the AMS back when I first joined.
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It looks like the 32nd Parallel hull Andy Kiernan was flogging a while back.
Dave Wright has one of Maurices XXI's. Very nice boat- lots of detail. Was also originally fitted out with R&R tanks, but he decided to replace all the guts with a cylinder based ona water pump ballast system.
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Thanks for that Subculture. It's nice to know that some of Maurices boats are still out there, ans still going strong. Tomp has gone and got him self a real big project now!!! That will look fantastic when completed. Thanks again.
Phil
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It looks like the 32nd Parallel hull Andy Kiernan was flogging a while back.
Dave Wright has one of Maurices XXI's. Very nice boat- lots of detail. Was also originally fitted out with R&R tanks, but he decided to replace all the guts with a cylinder based ona water pump ballast system.
Yeah it was off Andy met him at the weekend he has a lot of subs to be working on. I tried the pump today on a Robinsons squash bottle, it filled it to half way then wouldn't pump any more, then the hose popped off the bottle shot off and I got soaked made me laugh.
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an old friend of mine he was a submariner for 15 years,he has a few subs, that i,d like to share with you,..they are all static divers,either Engel,or OTW...+ an early Krick,...his first, then after that,he went nuts, he has 2 x Seraph,whatever they are,2 x Gato,s,1 x Akula,...and a monster that has 2 x engel tanks side by side,and what looks like 2 x kort nozzle i forgot to ask what it was,here are some pics
(http://s18.postimage.org/8b66158vp/Picture_094.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/8b66158vp/)
(http://s17.postimage.org/n1pgiz8qj/Picture_093.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/n1pgiz8qj/)
(http://s14.postimage.org/avzsor2n1/Picture_098.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/avzsor2n1/)
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I tried the pump today on a Robinsons squash bottle, it filled it to half way then wouldn't pump any more, then the hose popped off the bottle shot off and I got soaked made me laugh.
Yep- 15 psi will half fill a bottle, but no more, so the manufacturers spec is spot-on. You have to vent the tank in some way to get more water in. OTW vent into the dry spaces. With that system you need probes or a float switch in the tank to ensure you don't pump water past the vent flooding the module.
The test you ought to try is, to fill the bottle with water, then see how much you can pump out, drawing a vacuum in the bottle.
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Re Maurice Ricketts,
His Type XX1 mouldings were sold to R&R Model Engineering many years ago along with the Surcouf which OTW is now marketing. The Type XX1 U boat was not detailed when Maurice sold them to Ron, in fact the hull was rather poor. The hull and tower was remodelled and detailed by me during the nineties to what it is today. Didn't know they were still around to be honest.
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Some of the hulls are still around, but the original tools were damaged I believe.
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I just don't know about that at all. I was asked to rework the hull and bow, which I did from Rossler drawings and close up photo's and detailed it in alloy plate. After I gave it back to Ron he had new mouldings made and that was the last I saw of it, although I did see one of the first hulls from the new mouldings prior to being sold.
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Slowly collecting bits and pieces for the WTC, looking for a decent fail safe any recommendations on one, needs to switch 12v if possible Cheers Tom
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Failsafes tend to operate an R/C channel, they don't switch power directly. Exceptions to this are some of the Subtech products- http://subtech.co/acatalog/SubTech_-_Products.html
Some products incorporate a failsafe directly. Also many modern receivers incorporate failsafes whih are programmable, e.g. Shulze.
If you're planning on a system like the OTW module, then you might want contact Mike and ask him if he has one of these kicking about in his box of tricks-
http://microgyros.com/servo_ballast.html
Mike designed that for use with such a system, it has probes for full and empty on the tank, failsafe and can control a servo with microswitches or a speed controller to switch the pump, and valve. ou could use a pinch valve instead of a solenoid actuated valve, cheaper and smaller.
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Made a quick test rig for the sub internals need to add in a solenoid, level sensor, fail safe, servos, 2nd motor and the mixer. Going to put it on a board and test it before installing it in a WTC. Tried a optical LED fluid level sensor but didn't work for some reason need to test it see what happened just run out of time.
(http://s12.postimage.org/adavenmzd/photo.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/adavenmzd/)
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Hi there Tomp. It looks like it is all coming together for you now, I take it that you are going to stand Subculture a pint some time then?
Cheers
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Made a quick test rig for the sub internals need to add in a solenoid, level sensor, fail safe, servos, 2nd motor and the mixer. Going to put it on a board and test it before installing it in a WTC. Tried a optical LED fluid level sensor but didn't work for some reason need to test it see what happened just run out of time.
(http://s12.postimage.org/adavenmzd/photo.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/adavenmzd/)
Yey got it working helps if you read the manual. Quick video of it working http://youtu.be/J_ZwVVTzgWA
now to tidy it up put it on a board and test it
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Hi, need some help getting there but now I have come to the front torpedo tubes I am struggling with lack of space to work on it. I made a cardboard cut out to try get the correct shape but still can't get it perfect. I have been thinking about cutting the front of the boat off so I can do what I want then fibre glass it back on again when finished. Doing this is it going to make it weak at the front and could possibly break?
(http://s18.postimage.org/78l1wohdx/photo_5.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/78l1wohdx/)
(http://s18.postimage.org/sm2hns35x/photo_1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/sm2hns35x/)
(http://s18.postimage.org/4wd1z34sl/photo_2.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/4wd1z34sl/)
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Hi there Tomp. That seems to be a bit of a drastic move. If you have to cut the bow off, you can all ways make a couple of bulk heads , one for each part of the hull end, the ones that will meet each other, fibre glass them in, and bolt them together. This will have an effect on the boat as the water will hit the bulk heads as it comes through the torpedo tube doors though. I will do a sketch in the morning if you like. Tired now, just had a thousand mile drive around the uk this week!!! some holiday!!
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Providing you glass it back together again, it will be very strong.
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Tom,
Pm Ken on Subcommittee.
User name is corsairman,
He built an S and a surcouf. he might have an idea regarding the torp/bow area. maybe even a template he could scan and email you for the correct shape...
http://s181686668.onlinehome.us/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=10589&p=63053&hilit=corsairman#p63053
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Hi Batfish, yeah I have seen pictures of Kens S class, nice sub really good choice of colours. I am a member of the Sub Committee also so have seen Darrin’s build log on there again really nice build. It got converted to the OTW dive module from Darrin’s own I there is a video on you tube of it.
Still not sure how I am going to do the torpedo bulkhead yet but I have chickened out of cutting the front off. I will probably get a miniature contour gauge and build the front bulkhead, then slide it into the boat it seems the best way I can do what I want with it, we will see.
You will not be disappointed with the kit it is very good, I will get an OTW type VII once I have finished the Type XXI so that might be a while yet. As for the module I’m trying to build my own I have had some great help from Subculture and Spooksgone without them 2 I would not know what I was doing, well that s a lie I would be parting with £860 and becoming a single man again!!
The motors are now sorted along with all the controls for the pump, failsafe, solenoid, level detectors and sump detector all works nicely. Still hasn’t gone wrong on my little test bed for it so It’s now time to make the module just need the time to do it, most of my time is spent on a trampoline with my 2 year old little boy, loves the bloody thing but I have to be on there also! Cheers Tom
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Ah Trampoline... horrible thing's cheap poles and the safety net's are rubbish, break in next to no time. Good laugh when wind takes it and it flys past the window >>:-(
It's good to hear your getting thing's sorted with module and worked out your motor space issue.
Re the pump and probes, I'm sure andy mentioned microgyros and i'm sure mike at MG has updated it. Also subtech seems to be coming out with some new levellers etc. Might be worth a look at there web page.
I know what you mean about the Otw dive module, Not being rude to bob, but it's rather expensive for what it is!!
Have you sorted out a TX and RX??? I noticed a Robbe F16 on ebay for 200 quid seller had 8 avaliable.
Also worth checking Engel as they sometime's have good deals going on Graupner Mc and Robbe/Futaba gear.
Re, own module.. http://www.directplasticsonline.co.uk/PVCSheet & http://www.clearplasticsupplies.co.uk/acrylic_tube_clear.htm
I look forward to seeing more of your build Tom,
regards
adam
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I have been lucky with our trampoline net is on the inside so can't get trapped in the springs and its really well built plus an added bonus was given it for free (I know I'm a cheapskate young family and wife part time that’s my excuse) I am going to use LED Optical fluid level sensors and my own relay board in the module, I can get these for £22. 2 types wet sink in the sump and dry sink in the module, they have a 12mm thread that will screw into the bulkhead and are self sealing due to the o ring on the end no other parts needed and cheap enough for me to afford plus they are good for 250psi. I have everything now for the module and total cost is just under £350 but I was lucky to be given a few parts for free which I owe Spooksgone a massive thank you for. I have a 6 channel 40mhz radio from a helicopter so I am sorted there thankfully can't afford another £200. I can kind of understand the cost of the modules they are very well built and a lot goes into the design of them I just can't afford it. It’s just this hobby is expensive, for the money I have paid so far I could of bought a Fleetscale kit with all the fittings and running gear, and electronics. But then it can't go under water!! Cheers Tom
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So have you worked out a ballast tank size as yet??
Are you placing the main batteries underneath your module??
Does the top of the module sit above or below the waterline??
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I love this thread. Nice to see tomp getting on well, and it's nice to see every one helping out where they can. Whan it's finnished and at a show somewhere, I think we should all meet up and have a pint together???
Cheers all.
Phil
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Yeah I owe a few people a couple of beers! Yeah getting there I hope by the end of the month building will be complete. Then the module that's going to be fun and frustrating also. Hi batfish module is going to be 120mm acrylic tube not sure on length yet nor how big ballast tank will be I have been told needs to be aprox 1.5 litres. Yeah module is under the water line and batteries might be in the front of the module to balance it out with the motors pump etc in the rear we will see how it balances out once all built. Have you picked up your kit yet? Cheers Tom
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Hi Tom,
Thanks for info re Module.
Could you not place batteries below module. Nimh stick pack, Maybe F cell's 12v 13ah.
Kit still being sorted out, Tower and casting's done. just the hull to go as far as i know. I believe propshop on hol's at the moment so perhaps running gear might be 2nd delivery.
When i emailed bob and jeff larue, they both confirm the overall ballast tank length of 305mm and 110mm/OD. Giving a total of 2.65 litre capacity.
I'm toying with the idea of a Hybrid system, possibly compressed air as Mbt and 2 piston tanks as Mtt. will watch how you get on with yours.
With overall ballast volume.
regards
adam
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Hi Batfish, yeah I remember the waiting worth it though. Yeah I could put the batteries under the module but I wanted to add weight here to make it more stable. The top casing and conning tower are quite heavy and I wanted to use the batteries as a counter weight to the motors, pump, solenoid speed controllers plus also the rear skeg etc. Going to complete the build and then see how it all balances up. S class is going to be on hold for another weekend going on the Ace cafe reunion on Sunday and on to Brighton
(http://s8.postimage.org/fd28hwyap/media.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/fd28hwyap/)
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Will F cells fit? Big old batteries, and yes it's a big old hull. What's the width of the hulls keel I wonder? 13A is a lot of capacity, probably more than you need to be honest.
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F's would not fit, C's would but the module would need to be raised slightly to get them in. Plus getting at them with the module in place would be a pain in the @#%^. Maybe you could put the battery's in where the saddle tanks would of been on the side of the module. Weight is quite high then though not sure if it would cause stability problems?
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Why would you need to get at them though? The power leads run round to the front of the dive module (assuming you're mimicing the OTW arrangment) , so you just hook them up to the charger in situ. You can get 5A capacity cells, that should be good for over an hours running time providing your drive motor(s) are efficient.
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Tom,
Nice R1!! wish i still had mine, decent bike but front end a bit to light!!! wheelie happy thing!!!
Ok when you mean to do it on private ground.... but scary at silly speed on rough patches.... Private track again.
Atleast that one does not have the weird pink/red frame.
Pity about the F cells, i would of thought that overall length of 900mm would have fitted in underneath, is it the height issue with module??
C cell, 25.2mm dia / F cell, 32.2mm dia
adam
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Hi Adam, Thank you yeah it is quite smart, so fast. I changed it for my R6 this year which I have had for 6 years I was a bit gutted to see it go. Did a tour around France this year covered 3k miles on it so got used to the power it has over the R6. I have hit the rev limiter in 6th gear which was very very fast 186mph (track obviously). It is quite light but I’m used to it as the R6 was very light on the front, I didn’t have a steering damper on that wish I had at times ,cats eyes and hard acceleration = change of pants. Thankfully this has one not so scary under hard acceleration.
I will take some photos for you later show you what I mean it’s easier to see why rather than describe it. I have 100mm tube and 120mm so will show both. Cheers Tom
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You might want to look at Lithium LiFEPO4 batteries. These are available in cylindrical and flat cell styles. They come in various diameters, and are slightly higher energy density than NimH. You do need a charger designed to be used with LiFE batteries, fortunately these are becoming more common now than they once were.
Ebay is a good source for these batteries, you will almost certainly have to order from overseas though, as availability in the Uk is a bit shabby.
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Change of pants lol. Come close to doing that 1st time I had a tank slapper.
Friend of mine was on back of r1 filtering through traffic, his eye's where on stocks bricking it. I still remember him saying mum....
Give him a lift on blackbird back in march ruddy cold here that day punch the ice of seat, I thought I would have to wash the seat down after he on back.... Lol.
Is it not feasible then to fit nimh batteries within wtc? If your tight for space... Check grimreaper vanguard and rameshs tireless build. Thats where I got idea of seperate motor wtc.
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I always wanted to have a go on a Blackbird, guy next door had one and raved about it.
Pictures of batteries and tube in the hull, only had type D batteries
(http://s15.postimage.org/9n6rveko7/photo_1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/9n6rveko7/)
(http://s15.postimage.org/qq9jqx1d3/photo_2.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/qq9jqx1d3/)
These are with a 100mm tube over the batteries 1m long
(http://s15.postimage.org/zb2vi3bjb/photo_3.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/zb2vi3bjb/)
(http://s15.postimage.org/70r9egtgn/photo_4.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/70r9egtgn/)
(http://s15.postimage.org/f649fibdz/photo_5.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/f649fibdz/)
These are with a 120mm tube over the batteries 1m long
(http://s14.postimage.org/kbcv6bz5p/photo_1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/kbcv6bz5p/)
(http://s14.postimage.org/pck97p6m5/photo_2.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/pck97p6m5/)
(http://s14.postimage.org/e1hljbzr1/photo_3.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/e1hljbzr1/)
These are how I am going to do it, 120mm tube laid on the hull so the top of the module will be level with the water line (not sure if thats a good thing or bad thing??) The 100mm tube I won't get the 2 motors side by side, I could do as you said Batfish but its more tubes to make water tight so I wanted the minimum amount of failure points as possible.
(http://s14.postimage.org/xkm6soyil/photo_4.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/xkm6soyil/)
(http://s14.postimage.org/mnkv3xbr1/photo_5.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/mnkv3xbr1/)
(http://s14.postimage.org/vmfiup60t/photo.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/vmfiup60t/)
The reason I don't want to put the batteries under the module mainly is that I would have to buy new battery packs, I have 3 sets of 12v 5000mah packs from Component shop for my 1:24 Perkasa so would like to use these in this also, I can't afford to buy more at the moment spent all my overtime money on the parts for the WTC and another sub (XXI) DOH!!
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Is your sub cut at the waterline? If so, then your WTC will be higher than the waterline and a liability rather than an asset for buoyancy (not sure what reserve you have in that so please forgive my ignorance). Without the batteries in there, does it lower your WTC closer to the waterline? Just some thoughts.
Peace,
Tom
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If the cylinder projects above the surface of the waterline, it means a bigger ballast tank. It does tend to improve the sea keeping ability of the boat when on the surface especially if you're sailing in choppy water. It also tends to help increase the metacentric height of the boat as it submerges, by raising the centre of buoyancy.
Generally as we like to keep ballast tank volume to a minimum, it's considered best practice to keep the cylinder below the waterline where possible, but don't sweat it too much if that doesn't work for you- after all fullsize boats tend to have a pecentage of their pressure hulls above the waterline when surfaced.
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Well the water line is a bit of a pain because it starts below the top torpedo tube at the front and angles down to the bottom of the top casing at the rear. But when the sub is submerged it's level. The module will be level in the hull, the front of the tube is 20mm above water line at the Center of the hull it is level and then at the rear it will be 20mm under the water line. Glad it doesn't cause to much of a problem. Had the discs for the WTC machined today with a groove for the O ring. Question could this be secured in the groove with silicone? Cheers Tom
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Is your sub cut at the waterline? If so, then your WTC will be higher than the waterline and a liability rather than an asset for buoyancy (not sure what reserve you have in that so please forgive my ignorance). Without the batteries in there, does it lower your WTC closer to the waterline? Just some thoughts.
Peace,
Tom
Hi Tom, no the cut is below the waterline, it looks as if part will be above and the majority will be below the waterline. I have taken the batteries out from under the WTC to try get it lower in the hull cheers Tom
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It is a beautiful sub, regardless of the location of the wtc. Look forward to seeing this sail! Someone mentioned LiPo batteries, I use them, but might be changing to LiFe batteries. You have a lot of options don't you?
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Had the discs for the WTC machined today with a groove for the O ring. Question could this be secured in the groove with silicone? Cheers Tom
Why would you want to do that? Just let it sit in the groove without adhesive, when you button up the seal compresses. if you bond it in, it makes it difficult to change, and you will need to replace at some point. If you're using axial compression of the seals, you may want to consider using silicone o-rings instead of nitrile. Unlike nitrile, the usual choice for o-rings, silicone is pretty much inert to o-zone, this means you can leave them exposed to the air and they don't degrade. The disadvantage with silicone is it's more fragile than nitrile, and you have to be careful what lubricant you use on them. You shouldn't require any lubricant with axial compression of the seal, and silsicone o-rings tend to be softer, so they 'squish' up better.
Polymax.co.uk supply silicone o-rings. They have a £10 minimum order, so get all the seals in one hit.
Regarding the slanted surfaced waterline versus the level submerged position. The early Holland boats took this to an extreme, with a pronounced bow up attitude when surfaced, and level or perhaps a little bow down when submerged. In the case of the Holland boat, this was achieved by offsetting the position of the main ballast tank, positioning it forward so that with it empty the vessels C.G is aft of the centre of buoyancy. With the tank flooded the C.G moves forward, and the boat levels off.
Unfortunately different water densities, will have an impact on your submerged trim. So how do you deal with that?
Well if you're using a single main ballast tank like the OTW system, you can add a means of weight shifting, or fit auxillary trim tanks.
In the case of the afore mentioned Holland class boats the boat had a smaller ballast tank used for trim. The main tank was completely flooded, and then the smaller tank, which was positioned directly over the submerged C.G, was used to adjust the final few pounds of buoyancy.
(http://s7.postimage.org/tmugogszb/Holland1_1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/tmugogszb/)
Thus the boat could be adjusted for differing water conditions without upsetting the longtudinal trim. Water density only varies by about 1-2%, so this tank can be very small compared with the main tank. All the submarines I've looked at use main and trim tank systems, in models this is rarely followed, as it means building two separate systems independent of one another, so the trim and main tanks are usually merged into one system. In the case of the Piston tank/Engel system, the trim can be very accurately set, but you still require two tanks to permit accurate positioning of the boats longitudinal C.G.
In the case of a boat like your S-class, a trim tank would need to be about 120-150 ml assuming you're using a 12cm diameter cylinder 100cm long. Another alternative is to make a sliding tray for one or more of your battery packs, and couple this to a servo, so you have a proportional method of weight shifting.
Another method sometimes used is to have a small set of trim tanks mounted fore and aft, these are coupled together via a reversible pump (peristaltic or geared), with a fixed quantity of ballast pumped fore or aft to modify the boats angle. This is closely follows fullsize practice, on small submersible craft, mercury is often used, larger boats pump water. For a model, I think shifting the battery is better, because it's easier to implement, and it's totally proportional and therefore easy and repeatable to control.
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Wow, that's cool. lot's of food for thought there Tomp.
Cheers Subculture.
Phil
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I just had a rumage through the work shop [garage] I have a peristaltic pump if you, or any one else needs it. Could you not use the fuel tanks the the model fly boy's use in thier aircraft as trim tanks? Just a thought, not my strong point I know!!!
Cheers
Phil
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If the tanks are placed within the pressure hull, then model aeroplane fuel tanks could be used. In the free flood area they may be a little too squishy under pressure, as these tanks will incorporate an air bubble. If the tanks are going in the wet, then you could make some tanks out of PVC or acrylic pipe. If possible mount them end up, this keeps any sloshing to a minimum, although with small tanks this is less of an issue.
But I wouldn't bother with this system, shifting the battery pack is easier.
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Wow, that's cool. lot's of food for thought there Tomp.
Cheers Subculture.
Phil
Hi Phil, yeah too many options! still it’s good to be able to pick and choose what's best for me and like you said it's great having people who have a lot (and I mean a lot) more experience than me. I read in one of the Subcommittee reports about Ken and his S class, seems he really enjoyed ballasting the sub..... NOT!! Seems the top is rather heavy making it want to roll, still like he did persevere and it will work.
I do have a spare fuel tank from my helicopter crash but like Subculture says it is quite soft we will see lots and lots of options need to try a few see what works best
Hi Subculture, Thank you once again for your knowledge, I like the idea moving batteries instead of another container because that would mean another pump plus controls for it, got to think of the pennies.
Little boy thought he would help by using a wire brush on the hull, nicely scratched now!! Still he was only trying to help. Cheers Tom
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Etched brass deck doesn't help matters with regards to stability, but you have a big wide hull so plenty of scope for building instability if it's required.
Can't claim any credit for the battery shifiting idea, it's all in black and white in the traplet publication Model Submarine Technology. There's a chapter that covers this subject in that book and it includes a simple formula that enables you to quickly calculate how much ballast you need to shift and how far to get a certain angle of tilt.
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Hi Tom,
Do u want me to email u the 3 build info of kens?
Looking at 1 of the pic's otw place battery beneath and modul sits very high as a result,
Perhaps that why the ballast tank is the size it is.
Anyone else want the S class build pm me.
Regards
Adam
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Another technique to consider, is placing some buoyancy (e.g. foam, a tank etc.) in the stern of the boat, and above the waterline. As the boat submerges this will move the centre of buoyancy forwards, so that the boat takes a more level attitude. The size of tank/foam will require some experimentation to get right, but this is the lowest tech solution to the problem.
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Hi Tom,
Do u want me to email u the 3 build info of kens?
Looking at 1 of the pic's otw place battery beneath and modul sits very high as a result,
Perhaps that why the ballast tank is the size it is.
Anyone else want the S class build pm me.
Regards
Adam
Hi Batfish thank you for the offer I do have the complete build of Kens sub and Darrin's, it can still be seen on the Sub committee forum very good build excellent sub.
Hi Salmon, thank you again just not getting the time to work on it at the moment. Yeah want to get it in the water. Cheers Tom
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Hello, been messing about with the WTC put it together and thought I would try it in the sink, and you guessed it... it leaks like a sieve I just laughed DOH! I know where its coming in the rods, the O rings I have for these are to small so are being deformed when I tighten them up so larger ones ordered and will see how that goes. My wife is going to see family in Newcastle next week so I should be able to do lots more building, hopefully complete it ready for priming. Cheers Tom
(http://s12.postimage.org/5dlbncocp/photo_3.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/5dlbncocp/)
(http://s12.postimage.org/bxo3tp2dl/photo_1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/bxo3tp2dl/)
(http://s12.postimage.org/bnglacnrd/photo_2.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/bnglacnrd/)
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It's all right for you Tomp, My missus would drag me up there with her!!! Enjoy your weekend, happy play time :-))
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I think it's preferable to run the rods externally (like Sheerline), if you have enough enough clearance, removes many potential sources of leaks, and frees up space for equipment. If there is no alternative but to run the rods inside the cylinder,flat rubber washers are a lot more robust. You can cut some out of an old car or bicycle inner tube, other alternatives include tap washers etc.
Looks like you're using normal nuts with free washers. the nuts should be capped type with washers soldered on- the underside of the nuts is not flat enough and cuts the seal resulting in leaks. Brass dome nuts are readily available and cheap, and are easy to solder washers onto- soft soldering is quite adequate strength wise. With ordinary nuts, water tends to work it's way along the thread, and past the seal, via capilliary reaction (water pressure also helps).
To test the cylinder, consider installing a schraeder valve (tyre valve) in one endcap. Give it a few shots of air with a bicycle pump, and leave it for a few hours. If the pressure remains after that time, you can be fairly confident that you have a watertight cylinder. Some leaks can occur under vacuum conditions, and will fail to reveal themselves under a pressure test. However, as you're using a ballast system which pressurizes the cylinder by a few PSI, and is also vented when on the shore, it's highly unlikely you'll ever see this situation arise.
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Hi Subculture, Yeah I wanted to run them externally but it would have raised the WTC which wasn’t an option as then the top wouldn't go on. Bike inner tube great thinking got one of those in the garage, done that’s getting cut up tonight. It’s only normal nuts on the one end and capped at the other like you said a little while back didn’t put that in the water like you said they would leak. Pressurising the WTC will do that thank you again
Hi Phil, yeah well I have to work on Monday and I think she is staying up there till Monday night, I have been pimped out by my company to another to help engineer some electrical projects so Monday I start there should be interesting. Any progress on the type 9?
Cheers Tom
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ITo get more clearance you could have made the caps like the (very basic) drawing. I would advise lexan, and make sure it's thick- at least 8mm. You could also make the lugs bigger than I've drawn- the bigger they are the better.
(http://s7.postimage.org/w2edk83nb/end.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/w2edk83nb/)
Three rods is sufficent for end caps, and self levelling. The bottom lug would sit inside the keel moulding.
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Get a microgyros ESC. Excellent, very tough, and they have nice wide voltage range.
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Hi Tom,
Any updates on the S??
Mine arrived not long ago, Nice kit. I've taped it up again as wont be doing anything with her until after newyear.
I see what your on about re battery placement within keel, D's far to big.
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Hi Batfish, sorry replied to your last post but seems it got deleted. I have done a few bits on the S but work is getting in the way I just have to do the front dive planes and front torpedo bulkhead, then I will add a little more detail then it's ready for painting.
Good to hear you have yours now it is a very good kit, are you going to use an OTW module or your own build? I am nearly done with the module but need it built to see how big the Center tube is going to be. Need a new speed controller as I cooked the last one playing with an rc buggy with my little boy. Will try one of the micro gyros like subculture suggested see what they are like. I should take some pictures and put them here but not that much has changed really. Cheers Tom
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Good choice of esc! I've tried most of the major manufacturers ESC's, and Mike's are the best by a long shot. Shame he doesn't do brushless.
If you haven't got a leveller yet, have a word with Mike about his ESC and leveller deal. Not sure if he's still running that package, but if he is, you'll get the two units at a better rate than buying them independently.
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Sweet will talk to him, I forgot need 2 esc's as using the mixer that Phil (spooksgone) kindly donated to help turn it, so hopefully he will do me a deal. Cheers again Subculture
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The ESC's are £23 each, the nearest equivalent specced controller made in the UK is 50% more expensive, and still isn't as good. So they're extremely good value.
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Placed order tonight Yey this is the last parts I need for the module just need to put together now!
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Hi Tom,
I've not decided as yet re module. I did notice a module on ebay for £200.
Will see how the crazy season goes.
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I have been reading this with interest can I ask?
what type of motors are you using for the Submarine?
and
how are you getting the shafts from motors through the WTC water tight?
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Colin,
Some of the guys recommended to eco500 running through 3.1 gearbox.
Marks model bits do resin endcaps.
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There about four methods used to make propshafts watertight.
1. The crudest method is to pack a normal stern tube with a waterproof grease. This works to a degree, but over time water pressure will push the grease out of the tube, and then you will get water ingress, unless the grease is periodically replaced. The grease also places a higher load on the motor. Robbe and Graupner kits use this method of sealing shafts.
2. The second method is to use an o-ring, often silicone although some use nitrile. This is housed in a metal or plastic gland, which can be adjusted with a threaded spigot to compress the o-ring forming a seal around the shaft. OTW and Sheerline use this method.
3. Similar to the o-ring, German kits like Engel and Bruugebn kits come with shaft seals called simmerings. these are basically miniature oil seals. These are pressed into a housing, and a small lip seals around the shaft. No adjustment is necessary because the seal has a small spring which presses the seal against the shaft.
4. A small length of silicone tubing is fitted around a brass tube which the propshaft runs in. The silicone tubing sticks out a little way, wrapping around the propshaft providing a seal.
There are a few variations on this theme, but that lists the most common methods. Version two and three are the best way of going about things.
Recommending motors is quite tricky, as it depends on the prop size and pitch you're using, and also the speed you wish to obtain. Shaft speed will probably want to be somewhere in the region of 2000-3000RPM. Geared motos is one option, high wind high torque direct drive motors is another.
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Thanks for the info,
I had a look at the engel O ring but couldn't work out how it went on
probably if I had 1 in my hand it would be straight forward %)
as for motors I was unsure the size required so will look at the various options now I have a guide to work with :-))
Colin
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They're a press fit inside the bore. If you've ever fitted an oil seal on a car, you'll know how they work.
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They're a press fit inside the bore. If you've ever fitted an oil seal on a car, you'll know how they work.
thanks that akes it a bit better to understand :-))
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I have been reading this with interest can I ask?
what type of motors are you using for the Submarine?
and
how are you getting the shafts from motors through the WTC water tight?
Hi, sorry been working abroad so had no access to the Internet without paying a fortune. The motors I am using are 755 type from Action electronics, can't find data sheet on them now but they are fairly low RPM and current draw but with good torque.
To get the shafts out I am using the items from Marks Model Bit
taken from his website "These have been extensively tested in our sub-sonic and are watertight.
They come with a cast resin mount for your motor, pre assembled and greased shaft with sealing O-ring and a solid coupling made to order for the shaft of your motor. Only assembly required is drilling the mount for your size of motor, bolting the whole lot together and glueing the stub shaft in."
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Thanks Tomp, I know what it's like to be working from home :((
Thanks for the info I have been informed that the one one the OTW unit
We're 555 motors direct drive and also who to get them from
So may use those.....
I am still looking at what ballast system to use
I am thinking about 2 pumps and 2 bladders but still at the thinking stage {:-{
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Apology to Colin.
I'm afraid the ex and her new partner went to town on my stuff.
S class has been put through a crusher and Slipway trent and revell Gato suffered the same fate.
Full refund of 450 has been sent to your paypal acc.
I'm terribly sorry for this colin. Police involved.
regards
adam
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Thanks Adam,
I hope you get it all resolved mate
Colin
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1st I need to apologise for hijacking Tomp thread of his S class.
And to Martin (admin) for allowing my private life to be shown on a open forum.
I need to clarify a few things all.
The misses and i have are now going through divorce!!
I was informed then shown what i thought was my S class and Gato subs both destroyed.
If it was not for the actions of the local rc boys noticing the ex trying to sell my stuff local i would have thought my property destroyed.
The S class and Gato survive!! Guys i'am coming out of the hobby for as long as i need to sort thing's out! I will continue to visit mayhem... little bit of sanity and all that, plus i enjoy the forum and all the nice folks on it.
A few pic's for Colin and others whom showed interest in her before all my troubles.
Kindest regards
adam
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thanks Adam,
I am sure we all wish you good luck and keep your head up mate
and your friends are here when you need a bit of sanity :-)) :-))
Colin
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Cheers big yin!!!
She's packaged up and just putting postal address on.
take it easy man dont work to hard lol :-)) :-))
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Hi all, no worries Adam it's been a long time since I have touched either of my subs. I have been working abroad and got back yesterday so hopefully now I can start back on them will keep you posted. Cheers Tom
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If you're building an S Class, I'd have thought the book 'One of our submarines' would have been essential reading! It won't help you build the model but it'll give you much needed guidence on avoiding Japanese A/S vessels.
Seriously, it's not only interesting, I found it a really decent read. The photos of Storm will also help.
Secondly, on a more practical note: to find the volume of a irregular shaped object, you need to convert it to a regular shape, in this case a cylinder, and take it from there. So you'd divide the length up ... say every inch... and measure the perimiter at these marks with a piece of string.
You then average these measurements which gives you the average circumference. Divide it by Pi [3.142] and you have the radius? (is that right? Long time since I left organised education)
It's then a simple Pi times the radius squared which gives you the area of the object, you then times the area by the height to get the volume.
Have I got this right? It'll give you the ball park figure.
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If you divide a circumference by pi, you get the diameter, not the radius. The rest of the formula was correct.
The only reliable method of obtaining the correct ballast tank volume for your sub is to use the test tank empirical method which has been documented many times both on this forum and elsewhere. Calculation will get you a rough idea, but there is a huge fudge factor, so I would only use it for getting an idea on overall tank dimensions and to help decide on things like pump size in relation to dive times etc.
If you try to use weight with a freeflooding hull made from GRP and brass media, which the OTW s-class does, you will most certainly end up with a tank that is too large. On the flip side if you make a sub from wood (don't laugh plenty of wooden subs out there), you'll end up with a tank that's too small.
The empirical test tank method is very straightforward, requiring no mathmatics and is extremely accurate.
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If you divide a circumference by pi, you get the diameter, not the radius. The rest of the formula was correct.
Good to know the Councils money wasn't wasted.
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Right! Need to get on and have this ready for the summer. I'm just finishing it off filling and sanding and adding a few detail parts before I start painting. I'm probably fussing to much but does anyone have an idea on how to make the edges on the casing rounded. I've tried using a sanding block but keeps going wrong and I get wobbly curves down the length of the casing. Any help will be much appreciated cheers Tom
(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh485/tommy3781/image_zpsab0e6aae.jpg)(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh485/tommy3781/image_zps7a29c7d1.jpg)
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Make a scree tool. How do you do that you ask?
Well get some metal sheet, any will do aluminium or brass tend to be easier to work, but use what you have. Needs to be about 1mm thick or so. mark out the shape of the radius you want on the metal, so you have a template in reverse. Apply filler to the model, and move the scree tool along the boat. Clean the tool after each pass.
By doing this you get the shape pretty much bang on from the start. You'll probably need a couple of coats of filler, as it will shrink a bit as it cures.
You can also make a custom sanding block. Use some soft balsa wood or pink/blue foam. Trim it to the shape of the radius, and glue on some abrasive paper. Then you can use that to lightly sand back any imperfections.
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Thanks Andy I shall give that a go. Cheers Tom
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Following the crap weather I have moved the sub indoors to get some work done. Wife has gone away for the week and I'm off work so I hope to complete the build and will just have the module to go. (http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh485/tommy3781/image_zpsbd975489.jpg)(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh485/tommy3781/image_zpsbab4325b.jpg)
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WTC arrived today from A1 downunder subs, very well packed for postage and very pleased with the WTC need to get on and install the electronics now!
(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh485/tommy3781/1B381E46-2776-4313-84A9-A211C6050838-1982-0000043AFC00C8F9_zps8865e7fe.jpg)(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh485/tommy3781/825AD55D-A6F9-4E98-992C-79B117E96A12-1982-0000043AE8D2E7D9_zps033a3b65.jpg)
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Hi Tomp
that looks good,
like you i need to get into mine I started the Conning Tower but then somebody has forced me to work
for a living >>:-( >>:-(
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Torpedo tubes made, need to fit the doors etc but will make this all removable so can work on it later and possibly launch torpedoes. (http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh485/tommy3781/EC340073-5F77-4050-A5BA-6212B32B5139-2234-0000046F0A016E53_zps8f8741a7.jpg)(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh485/tommy3781/DCFEF919-E97C-409C-B360-6C718653AEE4-2234-0000046F27059577_zpsb1f35429.jpg)(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh485/tommy3781/23A6D150-BA78-44E4-806E-1E409FE36CB6-2234-0000046F1A1D03FB_zps0afb28a6.jpg)
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New WTC in the boat can't wait to get it all working must get on!(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh485/tommy3781/DF483495-AC49-48D5-AA3D-586193A05955-2632-000005481AF7120A_zps6b7d5c9c.jpg)
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Are you still there Tomp? Whats the latest with the S class? I'm dying to know!
Cheers
Phil
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Hi Phil, yeah it's been a long time. I'm still working on it when I get chance really annoying as its so close to being ready for painting. Work has been taking most of my time with being away from home etc. I will finish it just taking a long time, how are your projects coming along? Tom
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Hi Tomp. I have been busy decorating the whole house, not touched any thing really. I have got my next project though. I am going to do a model of HMS Woodpecker, based on the fleetscale hull of HMS Starling, and the Sirmar fittings, I should have all the bits and pieces with in a couple of months. Glad your ok. Looking forward to seeing your S class.
Cheers Tomp.
Phil
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Got my grubby little hands on these (http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh485/tommy3781/2A181DDC-0635-49AC-9223-8200B2AA730D-487-00000066375E60D7_zpsc306cdcc.jpg)
(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh485/tommy3781/33D06B6B-00F6-47E2-A959-35F75105ED76-487-0000006664D8800E_zps29c1ae51.jpg)
It's an OTW O Class wasn't really after that just the module, chamber not quite big enough for S class but can make one easily so now need to finish the S and XXI and have modules ready for both. Will have a think about selling or keeping O class
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Don't forget you should be able to fill the OTW modules tank to a higher percentage than the A1 module, owing to the formers venting into the dry spaces.
Can I ask why you have decided not to use the A1 module?
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The OTW is 2.04 litres in volume the A1 is 1.9 litres, the A1 tube I can't fit the Shurflo pump in that I was kindly given by Spooksgone as its 100mm not 110mm like the OTW. The Shurflo pump will only fill the tube to half way. I have a Kavan pump that will fill it to 3/4 full. I can make the A1 module vented like the OTW I have some sensors I can use to control the pump. I got the OTW module for less than quater of a new one so couldn't say no really so wanted to try both see what works best for me and which is the most stable. Also I have the O class that I might build so the OTW module would fit in that and I also have a 1/32 scale E class sub and have been told that the OTW module would also fit that. I have no idea what I will need for the XXI yet might be lucky and it would fit that too
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Los like,you got a big bargain there :-))
When you say the OTW tank is 2.04litres
I take it that is the tank size required for the S class
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Six of one, half dozen of the other.
I think you will find the modules fairly evenly matched in terms of performance. The Shurflo pump isn't designed for a high pressure system like a sealed tank, you're much better off with the Kavan pump and pinch or solenoid valve to stop the back flow.
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Interesting reading especially when I saw Stan Robinsons name appear, he was one of the founding members of the Gloucester and District Model Boat Club, had the Gato boat, + his destroyer that dispensed detonators which managed to kill the fish in the pond.
I am now back to building currently 1/96 re work of my HMS Tiger so probably will re join once it is finished.
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Wow long time since I put anything about this! Well I was so close to painting but there was so many little niggling issues that I decided to attack a few of them. Firstly the WTC biggest reason why I haven’t got too far for so long so bit the bullet and bought a OTW module for this, 8 week delivery so thought now’s the time to get on with it. Secondly over time the filler I have used has cracked and looks a mess so dug it all out and starting again. Flood holes I had made out of plasticard over time has become quite brittle so back to the drawing board with that one hopefully will have a detailed etch ready soon for this. Then details after a lot of research have some good pictures to help improve it. I wanted a set of John Lambert plans but sad to hear he has passed away and they are not available at the moment.(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh485/tommy3781/6FAC8242-C0AA-4284-8027-1102DEE02CB6_zpsq1l68w3c.jpg)(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh485/tommy3781/F2DA5C70-DBC6-486B-BA84-9C3A19F33F76_zps0ohow5tg.jpg)
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If you've had problems with the filler cracking away, that indicates movement in the substrate.
I would consider a shift in strategy. Either build up the bulk of the filling with glass fibre and resin, then just a skim of polyester putty, or use a stronger filler, like an epoxy based filler. This will be a bit harder to sand and takes overnight to dry, but it is much stronger than polyester putty.
A good epoxy putty that spreads well is Reactive resins easy fair. Note that although this is the easiest to work epoxy filler I have encountered, polyester filler is still a little easier, and I often use a bit of polyester putty over the epoxy as a stopper to fill in the odd bit or two.
http://www.reactiveresins.com/easy-fair-t-s.html