Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Submarines => Topic started by: sub john on August 21, 2011, 11:30:45 am
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmPEnRv5wWM please view this and put your thoughts back to me lol thanks people also part 2 is a link in the decription part of the video
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what a machine!! thanks for the video of john :-))
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HI Mad Mike
Thanks for comment on video of submarine, have been looking into this a bit more on doing sonar for underwater have found how to make transducer for transmitting end and receiving end is quite easy have been playing about with low frequency video link for under water but it all takes time to design once you have done the first one its easy. With sonar link it should be able to work 500ft down with a bit of luck
ALL THE BEST JOHN
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when we did the possibilites thread i put up a link for a accoustic modem using sound to transfer data.
http://www.tritech.co.uk/products/products-micron_modem.htm
40 bps spread spectrum means nout to me 500m horizontal range 150m vertical range
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Excellent demo, John.
...And the best use of a garage ever. :}
Andy
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REPLY#3 hi mad Mike
The link that you was talking about data transfar is to slow for what we won't now i no how to make transducer for TX end it's quite possible to make one that will knock out 70-80 watts which will give you quite a range
REPLY #4 HI Dreadnought 72
Thanks for leaving reply glad you like video was getting problems with RF from different radio links which blizzard the video camera at one point blizzard the memory card in camera thought it had killed the camera and yes best use of a garage yet.
all the best John
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That has got to be one of the most impressive bits of model boat engineering and ingenuity I've ever seen!
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Martin, I could sail (and dive) my Kilo in the hull of that thing!
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Reply #6
HI Martin
It is really good when somebody like yourself comes back and appresshates the time and effort that has gone into building the sub and the electronics to make it all work Richard from the AMS has got a video of most of the sub inside and he said he will put it up on you tube. thanks for the interest John
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we all counting on ya to spearhead the development of scale marine technology. No pressure john :-))
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Superb model engineering of a difficult type of vessel. Congratulations. We would all love to see a video of it in the water, hint hint !
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REPLY #10
HI Arrow 5 Thanks for comments on sub have got video of sub from 20 years ago when central TV came out and filmed it, but video is in VHS format but have got it on DVD but having problems trying to convert it to go on youtube it is about 1 hour long
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Thanks John, I know what you mean about converting VHS to digital formats. Not for the amateur, i`ve got miles of tape that will probably be stored for the ancestors to figure out ! Have you tried tv archive from Central or their successors ?
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REPLY#12 HI ARROW5
Fine on contacting central TV one of the things that I'm not sure about is on video tape that i have got some of the video has got central TV logo on it, not sure how this would be putting it on youtube would it come under some copy wright even as i am on the video, would it be best to get in touch with central TV and ask as i could see it getting complicated
on video that you watched i didn't say that i had fitted new level controll for back hydroplanes old unit worked off in-fa red scraped that and fitted new accelerometer sensor 2g unit has to be very very sensitive because of how long the sub is
all the best John
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Superb sub and great video. Make it clear just how big it is and all the gubins you have in it.
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Dear santa.... lol
absolute marvel of engineering.
however....we need to see it in the water :-))
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i cant believe he was considering chopping it up and skippin it !!%% %% maybe you got a bubble on the brain john :-)) {-)
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thats way and above modelling %%, bet theres been some love/hate moments in its build, whats the actual max depth you have taken her too ?
do you have an emergency/ rx-tx failure system in place that will after pre set parameters are met surface her without user input
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With regards to converting video formats, I use a piece of software called virtualdub (free and powerful, although a little cryptic to use at first). Any video that goes up on Youtube or Vimeo should be H.264 codec, which is the native codec for those sites, and also the most efficient. I use Virtualdub all the time for cleaning up old footage and also for correcting aspect ratios and converting codecs.
One caveat is that the footage must be in avi format. As you have the footage on DVD you may have to convert the mpeg 2 first before converting to mpeg 4 (h.264)
http://www.virtualdub.org/
Perhaps you could bring it along to the Dive-in at Brockwell in November, a good chance to stretch it's legs in the olympic size pool, and good clear water for videoing in.
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Reply#14
HI Mankster Thanks for comments on sub and video it is cram full of electronics and getting worse
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Reply #15
HI Lilgoth89, Santa won't get this in his bag, nice when somebody else appreshates it going to try to get it on the water for next year see what trouble i can get into
All the best John
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Reply#16
HI MAD mike, its not a bubble its water on the brain the misses says i am mad any way yes i was going to saw it up with a jigsaw cutter,
JOHN
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Reply#17
HI Treeboa The hardest part was doing all the electronics for it love/hate moments don't even go there. The actual depth must be about 20ft sat on the bottom of Davy Jones. The sub has got quite a few failsafes radio fail safe circuit monitoring different channels to make sure it is a proper radio fail safe all fail safes circuits link to monitoring battery voltage eg it you are running submerged and the battery's start to run down sub will surface and after it has blown all the tanks won't let you dive the sub again, radio fail safe also monitoring any leaks in sub, and it so will blow tanks again there is quite a few other bits as well thanks for interest
JOHN
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REPLY#18
HI Subculture, I think you converted the video of Nick Burge subs in his back garden have watched it quite a few times think you made a good job of it, the video i have of my sub is about 20 years old thanks for info on converting video to go on youtube and thanks for link will look into it and see what i can do. But as for bringing the sub to Brockwell i don't no how you would get it in the water never mind get the beast out really need a slip way to push it into water and push sub off trailer, at the moment seem to have problems with the trailer as it has stood for 18 years and the bearings on wheels seem to be US plus need to have good look at it to make sure there is nothing else wrong with it. Thanks for your help John
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http://www.jwebbplanthire-eastsussex.co.uk/sem-cranehirebrighton.html?refcd=go85272593s&tsacr=GO8929818570 (http://www.jwebbplanthire-eastsussex.co.uk/sem-cranehirebrighton.html?refcd=go85272593s&tsacr=GO8929818570)
Ok, I know....I'll get me coat.
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Yes I did that video. It was a tad ropey- second or probably third generation VHS footage. I put it through a Canopus ADVC-55, which converts the analogue signal to 720x576 DV codec AVI.
I then loaded that file into Virtualdub, applied a few filters to clean it up as best I could, deinterlaced the footage and cropped to true 4:3 aspect, and adjusted the resolution to 640x480- which is what the Youtube and Vimeo sites support. The video was then rendered to h.264 codec.
Sounds easy, but it took the best part of a day of fiddling about with settings before I felt happy with the result. I have another tape with Nicks Amphibious tank with working gun, which is due for conversion.
I'm sure if we get enough slings around that beast we can get it in and out of the water!
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reply#24 HI RICHARD very funny i like that i think i might need that the way its going
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what made you decide to build the sub so big? was it the deckgun?
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Found a few more pictures of the beast...
(http://s4.postimage.org/2ci1pn3c4/scan5.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2ci1pn3c4/)
(http://s4.postimage.org/2cidaeisk/scan6.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2cidaeisk/)
(http://s4.postimage.org/2cijwjwro/scan7.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2cijwjwro/)
Bottom pic shows the late Nick Burge (the guy who built the deck cannon) and a youthful JR standing alongside the top deck...there's another couple of feet to add to that when the deck is fitted to the hull.
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"Sounds easy"
No........!
Bottom pic shows the late Nick Burge
Wasn't there another great model submarine aficionado, Bernie someone... always used to wear a Jean jacked cover in badges.....
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Now that's an invitation you can't refuse, Richard!
Show the nice man the photo with Bernie. :o
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now youl all probably shoot me down but when i was working in a garage we used these:
(http://s4.postimage.org/2eqrgvuzo/dbimage_file_ZGJfa_W1h_Z2_Vz_L3_Byb2_R1_Y3_Qvc_HJv_ZHVjd_F8x_Mj_Quan_Bn_type_restrict_width_800_height_600.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2eqrgvuzo/)
the crane boom extends in most cases beyond the front wheels alowing the sub to be lowered in a pool. this a 2 ton rated engine hoist and they can be hired
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Hi John.
Great technical build. :-))
I was most interested to hear that you are using 240v for the two washing machine drive motors, forgive my ignorance but 240v and water don't really get on are there any failsafes. or measures encorporated to prevent you frying yourself or anyone else for that matter should the 240 v system come into contact with the water etc.
Regards Sub.
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reply#27 #31
HI Mad Mike, idea of making the sub so big was it was going to be the first sub to go under and across the channel to France, but could not afford to do it sub would run for 26 hours none stop
the lift unit that you showed on picture problem is if you went with sub beyond front wheels it would tip over good idea Mike but not quite right you would not believe how had it is to get the sub in to the water needs slip way
JOHN
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Reply#32
Hi Sub Driver, 240v inverter in sub is connected through op-to couplers to different parts of the sub one of the problems of the inverter is if you ran it at say 300 KHZ you would probably end up interfearing with the radio inside the sub the one that i put inside runs at 50 HZ the same as the mains if inverter came in contact with water it would shut down i have been in the water with the sub in test tank I'm still hear to tell this tale biggest problem is trying to stop interference to the sub it self
JOHN
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No........!
Wasn't there another great model submarine aficionado, Bernie someone... always used to wear a Jean jacked cover in badges.....
Quite true Martin...the late Bernie Wood, the guru of UK model submariners.
(http://s4.postimage.org/2f3ut1rqc/Berniewith_Biber.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2f3ut1rqc/)
The man himself with his Darnell Biber at Sandown way back...
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Reply #36
HI ALL, The video that i put on youtube i said the i was going to put compass headings and other data coming back from sub i was surprised that nobody has said how are you going to send back compass headings submerged as you would need GPS link to make it work but the unit going in the sub works on picking up magnetic flux from the earth north pole and all that stuff so this unit will send back compass headings when submerged of course this has to be done with soft ware unit sends out data which would be linked to auto pilot the same as what you would have in a UAV plane so you would be able to control the sub by setting way points under water it all starts to get interesting, another possibility mad Mike. New radio link for under water is to do with all of this
JOHN
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well it had crossed my mind about tipping over but i reckon that in a boom was couterbalanced from the rear pivot it might not tip. If it had a hook on it you could hang 5 gallon barrels of water from it each would weigh 27kg. Then when you pack up empty the barrels. although the sub is heavy i dont think a foot overhang would tip the crane, the crane itself weighs about 80kg. now judging from the example picture, if the boom was overhanging 1/6th the length of the front legs then it would need 480kg to tip it. plus if ya added 2 27kg 5 gallon water barrels to counterweight that would increase to a 534kg overbalance. now with a bit of help from your mates to keep it steady i reckon it would work.
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heres another idea for a slipway trolley:
(http://s4.postimage.org/2h33vl1no/crude_trolley.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2h33vl1no/)
inspiring idea:
(http://s4.postimage.org/2h3fgch44/P4241250_A.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2h3fgch44/)
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Reply#37/#38
HI Mad Mike, Don't like the idea of having to us counter weight to much to go wrong and if you was going to use water to fill counter weights that's bad news as well picture you have got of trailer lowering sub in water first problem is if you launch it nose first into water because sub is so long it would try to snap sub in the middle, and if sub came off in one piece you would wreak the rudder plus other bits props. You would have to lower it into the water back first but would not like to launch it like that, have seen pictures of launching gato subs sideways off pier it is the best way to do it because of stress on the hull
JOHN
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Reply #40
HI Mike Have you read reply#36 let me know what you think
All the best John
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sounds good have you worked out a method of it working yet? compass with an optical encoding disk on it?
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Reply#41
Hi Mike, On screen display is ready to go in sub will display compass headings on video picture, unit will also send out to different formats of data to link to auto pilot still got to work out auto pilot have got low frequency aerial to work for video under water like i said before it all takes time to work out.
John
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how does the compass work then?
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Just been chatting to JR on the 'phone...he's now working on heat seeking torpedoes. The device will be capable of picking up the heat signature from the electric motor(s)in the target boat, locking onto it, and that's it...the target will be history. And I'm not joking either...
Time to be nervous, methinks....
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wow how awesomely indredibly dangerous!! %% you just showing off now john!! %)
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Reply #43
HI Mike, seem to have had a problem on first reply just ended up with laughing face, not sure what went wrong start again, you asked how compass worked compass works by picking up magnetic flux from the earth itself there is true north and there is magnetic north so many degree apart sensor in sub is picking up this magnetic flux from the earth and with the aid of processor and software on it is able to work out what you should be seeing on the video picture coming back from the sub for instance it could be saying north west by so many degrees and at the same time as the sensor rotates in the sub digital data coming out changes according to how it rotates this would be linked to auto pilot this would be setting lines of travel and waypoints can be turns in routes of travel and of course all this would be linked to rudder control servo. Front hydroplanes work on depth control unit which you can set to what ever depth you wont depth control unit could monitor water change temp and compansate for that back hydroplanes work on very sensitive unit to keep sub level, this unit is also temp compensated
JOHN
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Reply #44
HI Richard, How could you say that I'm going to build heat seeking torpedo's as if i could do any thing like that wouldn't no where to start HA HA HA still won't KILO for target practice BOOM GONE
john
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very good :-)) what are you working on now perticuly just trying to get auto pilot to work? just another point i know how a compass works i just wondered how you rigged the compass mechanism. I was thinking about it and thought if i were to do such a thing i would put the magnetic pointer on a pin axle with a optical encoding disk on the bottom. then drill 360 holes in it to give me a 360 deg compass
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Reply #49
HI MIKE, Compass unit for on screen display on video and that connects to auto pilot has no moving parts, the only moving part will be the servo operating the rudder to keep the sub on course and also has no spinning disks for encoding its all done on micro chip
JOHN
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You can purchase magnetic compass chips which you can interface with a microcontroller. e.g. http://www.sparkfun.com/categories/83
They get a bit expensive if you require tilt compensation.
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Would something so heavy be able to operate properly? A quarter of a tonne + sounds alot for a radio controlled model. Have you thought about torpedors at all?
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Would something so heavy be able to operate properly? A quarter of a tonne + sounds alot for a radio controlled model. Have you thought about torpedors at all?
being heavy just makes it more realistic it will function more like the full size than a small model
phil
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Reply #52
HI Silent running 556, Yes the sub does weigh over 500 pounds but the bigger the model gets the more stable it will become last time i tried the sub it was a long time ago and i was ploughing through about 14inch waves and it was so stable in the water i can still see the spray coming off the conning tower now yes i have already made the first torpedo 20 years ago but never put it in
All the best John
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Reply# 53
HI Phil, you are spot on the bigger they get the better they become and more realistic to plus the more stuff you can pack in thanks for your comments
ALL THE BEST JOHN
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That has got to be one of the most impressive bits of model boat engineering and ingenuity I've ever seen!
I second that Martin, I'm still sitting here with my mouth hanging open %%
John you are in a league of your own sir O0
Mike
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do you think youl have another go at crossing the channel john?
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Oh lordy...don't start him off on THAT again! There is no way I'm riding shotgun in a rubber dingy across the English Channel...no way!
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get sum tugboats to tow ya :-))
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The Gato can do the towing, it's more than powerful enough.
(I'll be the one on the cross channel ferry waving...)
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Reply #58
HI Richard, Don't be a spoil sport you go in dingy and i will dive dive dive not really
John
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Reply #56
HI Mike k, thanks for the comments on the sub but to me it doesn't seem impressive as i see it in the garage ever day thats where i do my modeling and a room in the house for the electronics, if i didn't stop doing subs 20 years ago it makes you wonder where it would all be now. Mike the reason why i stopped doing subs 20 years ago was i got up early one Saturday morning and was down Charnwood waters at about 6.30AM had just got the sub on the water when people came flocking from every where as if that was not enough a dog then jumped in the water and started to chase the sub, i turned the sub around and the owner went mad at me but it was ok for the dog to come after me, then a swan came over the lake and tried to land on the sub and to put the top hat on it students started to throw stone at the sub that p----- me off big time so i went round to sort them out but they backed off. When Pauline came to pick me up with sub i said thats it I'm never coming out again to sail it and i haven't spent 18 years in trailer locked up thanks for interest
All the best John
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i know what you mean. people like that are all over my area. people who have to ruin things for other people because they have nothin better to do.
anyway john you wont appreciate the sub you built it :-)) to everyone else though its marvelous like the pierre scerri ferrari. tell you somethin though there are people out their would sail your sub and would offer several K for it.
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Thanks for the reply John, the thought that this lovely model dates back some twenty years makes it even more mind boggling ! I would hope that conditions at the lake would have changed for the better but on second thoughts peoples' dogs are no better, swans are still a pain in the fundamentals and students are still as daft as ever - despite yet another record year telling us that they are getting brainier, what's that all about ?
The proverbial hat remains raised to you O0
Mike
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Reply#64
HI Mike, Don't no about students getting brighter all i see them doing is drinking loads of booze and getting drunk, it is a shame the it has spent the last 18 years in the trailer have got loads of new ideas on stuff to go in the sub, worked in RF electronics also industrial power control for big big gens also worked in digital electronics, for many years have got a good mechanical back ground all works side by side. Mike there is quite a few people that has said the same thing as you when you think this has all been done 20 years ago. One of the things that i am surprised at radio for model subs under water hasn't changed in the last 30 years, Mike when you clicked on submarines have a look at possibilities under mad Mike think i came in on 2nd page have a look
All the best John
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Reply #63
HI Mike, Mike i fly model plane a lot and i get the same trouble with that no matter where you go there is always someone trying to spoil it don't no weather anybody would buy sub or if i would even sell it, its still a bit of old tat that i was once going to saw up.
John
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Hi John, just did as you suggested and went on Mad Mike's posting - didn't realize that you were not alone, but a member of a parallel universe of model submariners who know magic things us stick and rag people cannot begin to understand %%
I was at Sandown Model exhibition many years ago and happened to be watching the model subs pool and who should be next to me but Michael Bentine who I found out then was a member of that society. Somehow seems apt !
Best regards
Mike
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Reply#67
HI Mike, Fine on meeting Micheal Bentine, i was at model engineer exhibition many years ago had small sub in the pool and i had Bob signs the guy that used to be on tomorrows world TV program don't no weather you can remember it or not he came up to me and said how well my sub worked very nice guy he had a lot to do with patents
John
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this sub john to the rest of us is like the pinnacle holy grail of modern marine modeling. to put it bluntly even though its 20 years old it takes the p*** out everything else water born, a sub like that is what us normal moddelers dream of making when we do our if only's! if it had enough coverage on you tube and of it working to its maximum pontential on the lake, camera footage, torpedoes the lot. People with more money than brains would twist ya arm to buy it. i can speak for many that we are on the edge of our seats!!
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Reply #69
HI Mad Mike, I don't no what to say it is very much appreshated your comments about the sub i think i made a big mistake leaving it 20 years ago but these things do happen for a reason. Your other question was will i ever take it across the channel don't no it will cost a lot of money to set up and do it which i can not afford it may be one day. A friend of mine came around to see me as he wonted me to sort out some 2.4 ghz radio for him but he only knows me from where i go flying i had got the sub switched on in the garage had been working on it and when he saw it in the garage he couldn't believe it. I suppose it must look impressive the first time you see it another time i remember is when my son and i got the sub out of the trailer a few weeks later after i had been working on it my son said where do you start to make something like this my reply was at the beginning
John
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Reply#70
HI Mad Mike What i haven't told you is that Pauline my other half did the spray job on the sub for me, and the gold medal that i took at the model engineer exhibition was hers for doing the spraying on the sub and i have never seen it since i don't think that is good enough she should give it back what do you say i cannot repeat what she said to me
All the best John
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what give the medal back? why?
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Reply# 53
HI Phil, you are spot on the bigger they get the better they become and more realistic to plus the more stuff you can pack in thanks for your comments
ALL THE BEST JOHN
So would you recommend shoving a grand piano or two in my U boat? :}
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Reply #73
HI Silent running 556, unless you have got a full size u boat then i don't think it would fit and then i think you would struggle to get them in
JOHN
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So would you recommend shoving a grand piano or two in my U boat? :}
having spent all day sunday driving a 1/4 tonne of model destroyer round mote park bigger is definately better.
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=27895.150
phil
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having spent all day sunday driving a 1/4 tonne of model destroyer round mote park bigger is definately better.
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=27895.150
phil
Agreed , 1.2 tons does it for me , but not the submersing bit. (31ft HMS Invincible)
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Reply#75
HI Phil, Been watching video boat looks good on the water looks like a nice piece of water that you sail on, where i used to sail it was 90ft deep. I have got a fast electric boat brushless motor fitted giro controlled trim tabs goes like stink. What is the length of the boat Phil biggest problem i find with the sub is trying to get it into the water and out again
All the best John
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HI Mad Mike
Took video link out yesterday with on screen display board fitted to video link unit was sending back compass heading battery voltage and other bits Pauline was sat in the car watching LCD screen watching picture coming back with data on screen i was walking around the field with all the gear in my hands and also got radio link to talk back to Pauline to make sure video link was working all seem to work spot on but what did i start to get people walking up to me asking what I'm doing it does get beyond a joke i do get fed up with it. I will now give you a laugh i was down testing a LF aerial and it was made of two bits of crossed sticks with wire going around it and some women phoned up the police and said there was a guy with a cross bow point it about at people, what did i get the police turn up to see what was going on it was not funny at the time but i can laugh about it now
John
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im afriad were plagued with stupid people especially ones who cant tell the difference between a man carrying a weapon and a man carrying a peice of radio equipment.
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Reply#75
HI Phil, Been watching video boat looks good on the water looks like a nice piece of water that you sail on, where i used to sail it was 90ft deep. I have got a fast electric boat brushless motor fitted giro controlled trim tabs goes like stink. What is the length of the boat Phil biggest problem i find with the sub is trying to get it into the water and out again
All the best John
evening john.
the boat is in old money 15 ft 9 inches. we launch it with a ramp whick works rather well have attached a picture for more info check out our website www.atboatyard.co.uk
(http://s1.postimage.org/1d022ggg4/ramp.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1d022ggg4/)
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Reply #80
Hi Phil, I thought the sub was big at 12 foot but your boat is a monster, had a look at your website saw that you was using positive drive belts on propshafts i use the same thing in my sub on my drive motors how i get my sub in to the water is it sits on a buggy with straps that the sub sits in and of course the buggy has got wheels the idea is you push it down slip way into water and sub flouts off but it is still had work,
All the best John
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Reply #79
HI Mad Mike, Well Mike i had Pauline the other half outside spraying the sides of the deck on the sub today, so the sub has just had a bit of a face lift need to look at spraying a few bits on the hull next, plus little bit still to do on the deck and conning tower Mike are you any good at spraying because the other says she has had enough but she does do a good job i don't no many females that would do it but secretly i think she likes doing it.
John
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lol my misus paints my boats i dont do painting :-))
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2Cx2wZ38zk
here is a video of some of the spraying the misses had to do lol lots of it
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looking good when you getting it on the water then? gonna be a like a second maiden voyage
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Reply #85
HI Mad Mike, I don't think the sub will be on the water until next year now need to do work on the trailer found a crack on the chassis of the trailer need to look into that a bit more can't afford to put sub in the trailer and some thing silly happen to the sub. Mike when we did thread with possibilities you said could you link the TX and RX aerials together it would not be a good idea to do that did you think about linking it with fibre optic cable, that way it would be light and would not hold back submersible plus you could send video down fibre optic cable as well
John
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that requires something clever to be done and im not the man to do it. someone sugested using a umbilical lead from the tx to the sub then having somekind of chip to convert the data into servo movement. dont know how to go bout that either some im ****** either way.
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Reply #87
HI Mad Mike, If you wonted to use an umbilical lead to the submersible for controlling it you could come out of your buddy lead socket on side of TX unit send it into laser diode send it down fibre optic cable to submersible which would be end coded from TX unit all you need to do now is pick it up with photo transistor on other end of fibre optic cable and decode it which is pretty easy to do could work circuit out for you would you be able to build it from circuit diagram have a think and let me no. Video pictures can also be sent down fibre optic cable as well. Have been playing around with RC radio for a long time
John
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where would i source parts like that from {:-{ i got to tell you i hate electronics, im all mechanical. dont understand electronics at all it was only a few months ago i managed to get my head around the difference between volts and amps, i can visualise complex mechanical motion i cant apply the same thought process to electric.
If you could make a circuit diagram and dumb it down i would much appreciate that. unless you make me one at a reasonable fee :-))
and isnt fibre optica cable expensive? well have to see what can be done
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Reply #89
HI Mad Mike, Fibre optic cable can be expensive to buy but you can buy fibre optic cable now that is plastic in the center and that is not that expensive, i could help you to make the boards if you won't is not a problem for me to work the electronics out there is also another way of doing this i worked out a circuit once that could send a video picture down say two bell wires side by side, and i got this to work down 500 metres full colour picture i dear was you did not have to use expensive screen cable would be ideal for what you won't sending back video from under water. Data for controlling submersable could be sent down same cable you could super impose data on sub carrier. If battery's where in submersable cable link to it could be very thin have a think
John
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my plan was to mount all power supply and switching in sub. i have seen a lot of plans on net using a massive 10 ply umbilical cord because they use relays. if i can send a signal that would make the sub a lot more manoeuvrable. I'm also planning on it being quite small and thinking about using a spherical design. with two thruster pods on either side using tank steering to controll the vehicle, thus eliminating the need for servos and rods exiting the hull. i also figure that if the main hull of the sub is a ball then there is no seams so the water pressure with equalise around the circumference of the sub balancing out the stresses.
i dont know what a bell wire is im sorry, but its sounds like a good plan. ive seen some fibre optic cable going on ebay, quite cheap actually well cheaper than i thought.
Im not sure what you mean though by super imposing the data on the sub carrier. explain please in dumb terms %%
thanks
check this out for a supply of fibre optic:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/JOB-LOT-FIBRE-OPTIC-CABLE-50-125-/160643421998?pt=UK_Computing_NetworkingCables_RL&hash=item256718172e
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Reply#91
Hi Mad Mike, First point to make is if you design this right there will be no relays they are no use to man or beast, don't trust the things all you need to do is send data down very thin cable every thing in the sub will be decoded every thing can be made to work the thrusters for manoeuvring sub what you call tank control steering can all be done with software speed controllers will be solid state meaning no relays, and will be from very slow RPM to full throttle i have got the same unit in my 12 foot gato but it does other things as well. You don't have to use fibre optic cable you could do it with audio cable same thing as you use on hi-fi equipment. WHEN I SAID THAT YOU COULD SEND VIDEO down bell wire thinking how to explain you could send video down speaker cable but you have to have the electronics to do it not a problem , had to design circuit for job at work but won't say to much about that, have worked on all sorts of strange things. SUPER IMPOSING DATA ON SUB CARRIER same sort of idea as how your 40MHZ radio works but these sub carriers are super imposed on the main carrier so you can end up with multi audio channels same as how it works on sky analog SORRY MIKE its hard for me to make it simple for you to understand, as for me it seems so easy hope it helps. But I'm willing to help
All the best John
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dont worry about it, i dont know how any of my rc's work they just do and thats cool with me. :-))
if speaker cable was used then would it be the 2 ply kind. would you send the control data down 1 side and would the sub send video feed back threw the other? if the sub was to send the camera data back would that require a lot of voltage?
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Hi John, (sub_john)...
I see you have made it to the big time... ;o)
For those who don't know, John akcnowleges me on his original video as giving him some of the many ideas that are in his boat.
I am probably the only person in the world he trusts with any of his secrets and I am proud to think that I have been part of his
project in the past.
Many thanks John.
The real time video recording of the boat underwater is simply the most breathtaking thing ever and was done around 20 years ago.
My van was used as the mobile recording "studio" and the RF links were in the Amatuer, RC and CB bands.
I was once this guys mentor, but he has even surpassed me for both practical and theoretical knowledge that I wopuld pit him against
best in the world for finding simple solutions to often VERY difficult problems...
His sub is a fully working example that proves the case...
He has solved an idea I put forwards to him some years ago - transmitting RF underwater - all I can say is WOW!
I'm lurking again...
I'll be watching... ;o)
73...
Bazza, G0LCU...
Team AMIGA...
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Reply #93
HI Mad Mike, All data for radio RC and for video on submersible could use very thin 4 core cable 1.5mm thick would not course much drag in the water, and no there would not be any high voltages on cable. You could make it so if wire link to submersible got snagged you could release cable link submersible would go into radio failsafe and get it self to the surface that way you can retrieve it back out of the water. How big was you thinking about making this and will it have ballast tanks
John
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Reply #94
HI Barry, Nice to hear from you on mayhem, thanks for the nice comments I have always looked at Barry as a very clever guy and some body i can lock heads with and have a conversation with about complicated things and he understands where I'm going Barry is the only person that i trust with electronic bits that i have done, and he understands how hard some of it is to do. Barry who had origanal copy of sub under water have asked Derek but he said he cannot find it idea was to try to find best copy as copy i have must be third copy down, have got some of the video at model exhibition London 1993 thanks Barry 73s
All the best John
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these are some pictures snapped of the TV showing the on screen display for the submarine top left hand corner is compass heading top right hand corner is the depth reading of the sub in the water bottom of the screen is the battery voltage and also shows the temp
(http://s3.postimage.org/2f2spucec/osd_unit.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2f2spucec/)
this picture is just showing osd with no video picture
(http://s3.postimage.org/2f3ckaibo/osd_unit_3.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2f3ckaibo/)
this picture shows video picture with osd running
(http://s3.postimage.org/2f4elnhok/osd_unit_2.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2f4elnhok/)
this is the pcb with compass heading unit what links to the auto pilot
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wow look at all that lab gear in your dry dock!! tv looks great btw :-)) have you mangaed yet to hook it to the auto pilot? btw your expertise could probably shed some light here:
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=32593.0
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Reply#98
HI Mad Mike, Yes i need some of this test gear with the stuff i mess about with, most of it you can not see on the screen of the TV you haven't seen anything like it in my room just full of electronics my den where i get up to no good. Haven't had time to design auto pilot yet for the sub just spent the last two days sanding all the wood on the deck of the sub but having problems with the varnish seems to be taking a long time to dry, think it is because so much varnish soaked into the wood but it does seem to be drying in places now do not won't to have to do it again. Will have to have a look on link that you sent me, i went on one thread and tried to explain why 2.4 ghz doesn't get through water but it went down like a lead balloon and was told a simple NO would do. Still playing around with low frequency video link got it working but not happy with it yet
All the best John
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i just read that post and i kind of understand what you mean. It is nice to actually have an explanation sometimes better than saying no other wise you will get well what ifs and buts. I suppose then that a 2.5ghz transmitter on a sub cant send signals out of the water either if the signal is absorbed by the water.
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Reply #100
Hi Mad Mike, 2.4ghz will in no way transmite through water from the sub to the bank side or from the bank side to the sub under water , i suppose for the average person to under stand the problems of radio waves going through water must be a bit mind boggling. Saw video film the other day this guy was in a car under water sinking to the bottom of the lake on a mobile phone talking to some body asking for help I REALLY DO NOT THINK SO, things like that make me laugh Mike have started going around and looking at different bits on mayhem was looking on one thread and there was a 16 channel switching unit to fit to TX and RX using pic chips down loaded all files and software HEX FILES was in German have done art work for PCB boards and when get time going to make boards up look under electronics on mayhem
All the best John
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the only way i managed to bend MY head round it was when you compared it to skipping stones. I came up with this annology.
27mhz - 40mhz signal is like like a handful of pebbles. Sling them into the water some of the pebbles will skip, some of those will sink and hit your sub.
2.4ghz is like slinging sand. On land you garantee hit your vehicle but on a submerged sub the water will absorb the sand.
i suppose then low rf is like a dirty great rock!!
would you say i got it ?? %%
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reply #102
hi mad mike YES you got IT O0
JOHN
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thats the dumbed down version for us normal folk :}
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what are these then. ive seen the apparatus in the red circle before in someone elses workshop.
(http://s4.postimage.org/2w6i05es/osd_unit_3.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2w6i05es/)
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here are some more pics of the boat for you all to see
(http://s1.postimage.org/5m7miais/scan211.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/5m7miais/)
(http://s1.postimage.org/5n1e6jes/scan310.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/5n1e6jes/)
(http://s1.postimage.org/5n9nv9vo/scan510.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/5n9nv9vo/)
(http://s1.postimage.org/5nhxk0ck/scan610.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/5nhxk0ck/)
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was this today or are these old photos?
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hi mad mike these pics are old around 20 years ago but shes water worthy again now looking to take her out some time soon
john
also i have been working on a level controle for the sub ! here is a link to a video i have done and uploaded on to utube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2hHCRgk8no hope you enjoy the video thanks again
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its going to get to a point where you will no longer need a tx because the sub will be AI!! This stuff is fanatastic
I still think you should set up a website a sell your products. like Action electronics or mmb:
http://www.action-electronics.co.uk/home.html
http://www.marksmodelbits.co.uk/
Now theres a possibility :-))
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Hi guys
Thanks for all your input put on the rf .. I wasn't thinking of just a 2.4 system. Between all the answers I got my head around the problems and I'm amazed at the response .. And yes I was thankfull of a fuller explanation of why a 2.4ghz system won't work.
Thank you guys
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Reply#105
HI MAD MIKE, You asked what the things where in picture was on TV screen, in the pic where you have got red circle top unit is sweep function generator, next one down oscilloscope the unit below that which you can not see storage oscilloscope other unit behind solder station, a 60 amp power supply and unit above that is RF function generator in the same case high frequency counter. Unit in green circle is another RF function generator, shelf top left hand side Lab power supply at the side of that another audio function generator and the other side of the room is much worse
john
Reply #109
HI Mike
Glad you like the video Yes i have thought about starting website might look into selling low frequency links for model subs but still having problems designing low frequency video link for under water
John
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Reply #110
HI Nikekk, Hope some of the information helped it can be a bit hard trying to get your head around radio waves under water,
All the best John
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you have to john its the final solution to possibilities. can you imaging those australian war games where they shoot bb's at each others ships. Then think of a fully operational sub with cameras on shooting torpedoes. RC minesweepers would have to be designed with real sonar. Holy **** what a show !! Think of science and deep sea exploration, scouting flooded caves too small for people to enter, endless possibilities!!
Im sure you will work out someway of transmitting tv signals. what kind of frequency does a standard annologue reception work at?
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Reply #113
HI MIKE,
Was watching some where on youtube these guys in Australia where firing across this big swimming pool with armed torpedoes and trying to sink this surface boat, one of the torpedoes hit the boat blow a hole and got stuck inside of the boat after a short while it sank i could get into that. As the torpedoes that goes in my sub they are 3 times the size. Will keep working on video link until i get it sorted
Bands that you can use for analogue for sending TV there is 3 bands for doing fast scan TV on the radio amateur bands but you need a license for these bands as i have got one, first one is what they call 70cms =432MHZ but this is only for black and white TV, second band is 23cms 1249mhz full colour and sound, third band is 13cms which is 2.3ghz up there is a fourth one which is 10ghz TV full colour picture plus sound, with my licence i can operate at 400 watts which is a lot of power. There is a band that you can use i think it is licence exempt which is 1394 mhz i no that there is video senders that you can use in your house but some of these are on amateur bands some video senders are on 5.8 ghz all of these bands will not work under water need to go LOW FREQUENCY for it to work under water
John
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whats made u get back into rebuilding your sub then why the change of heart?
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Reply #115
HI Mike, It started off with me son saying why don't you get it out of the trailer and do some thing with it, this went on for a few weeks and in the end i felt like putting him in the trailer with it, in the end i did get it out and been working on it ever since. I did enjoy taking it out but just wish people would leave me alone trouble is its such a crowd puller with a normal sub if you have some body bother you can walk off but with this there is to much gear set up to move about you have to sit there and take it.
JOHN
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cant you join a club?
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Reply#117
HI Mike, I don't think there would be many clubs where you would be able to take it and be able to sail it as you would need a slip way to get it in the water and i don't think many clubs would like you sailing this when other people are sailing as well. Think i have found some where to take it when it goes back in the water again
John
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sent you a pm john
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Reply#119
HI Mike, Haven't been able to get on to the net as modem stop working six days later started to start working, i hate electronics !!! Thanks for pm looks interesting have seen some thing like this before but cannot think where it was will have to look into it more on the net to see if i can get some ideas. Low frequency video link could not get colour pictures only black and white, could not under stand why it was doing this but found it was filter problem on front end of receiver but now it is transmitting colour video pictures starting to look good
John
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another hurdle overcome then :-))
i got a trawler on the cards and i would like to put it in for a bit of scale. I havent seen it done yet on here so should prove interesting.
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Reply#121
HI Mike,
Whats this about building a trawler what size are you thinking about building it, trouble is when you start going big you end up with same problem as me trying to move it about. I decided to varnish the deck on that big sub of mine but what happened was some of the varnish stayed shinny on the deck what did i end up having to do sand the hole deck down and start again 2 days later its done but a pain in the neck it has been.
John
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i dont build big i build small. my largest boat is 670mm including surface drive and and my smallet boat is 60mm %%
my trawler will be 400-500mm long it has to be small enough to get on the bus.
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Reply#123
HI MIKE You said the biggest boat you have got is 670mm I've got a reptile the same size as that, his name is Gizmo and he is a bearded dragon in fact we have 3 two males and one female. I bet you get some funny looks carrying the boat on the bus, i said on other reply that we had problem with modem a guy came and fitted new unit yesterday seems to work OK now any way this guy saw a picture of my big plane on the wall in my electronics room in the end i showed him the sub in the garage was he impressed or what i think at first he thought it was a static model
JOHN
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Well i actually carry them in a box my boats are deep v fast hulls so there flat. i put them in a box and put them under the pushchair so my boats have to be small to get under the pushchair itself. the box is actually a guitar box that i bought for my son, i took the guitar out and put my boat in it, guitar boxes are triangle so they fit perfectly. I went to morrisons the other day and i walked threw the checkout carrying it and the till lady piped up why i hadnt scanned it. I dont ever recall being able to buy guitars from morrisons and the box was tatty and damp.
When you get your sub finished john you might be able to get another feature in a magazine. Anyway regaurding your planes what you got then?
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Have you got any lights at all on it btw?
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Reply#125
HI Mike, Sounds a good idea using the guitar case to carry your boats in, i suppose it helps to protect them. I have got a fast electric boat brushless motor fitted giro control trim tabs to it, doesn't half make it stable when flat out there is about a 12ft plume of water coming out of the back and about 5ft high it doesn't hang about, haven't used it for over a year. Fine on what you said about morrisons going through check out my son works for them so we will say no more. Mike have a look on youtube look for F3A patternships thats one of the big planes that i fly that pulls about 3500watts 42volts using 10 lipo cells will climb vertical out of site also fly smaller pattern ships as well plus fly 3D prop hanging and so on i don't think i would ever pack up flying i enjoy it to much. The trouble is Mike it all gets expensive with different hobbies the last couple of days have been making SWR power meter digital this unit is to check RF power to antenna and for checking voltage standing wave ratio in other words SWR this unit monitors matching unit for antenna in water for controlling sub
JOHN
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need to keep them proptected during transport. im starting build on the trawler as soon as my wood turns up from ebay. it wont be scale or anything but ill enjoy building and sailing it none the less. Going to have a bit of a problem transporting it though. The way you model though john it will be expensive i dont spend anymore than a ton on each model lol this trawler is going to cost me 40 quid to make.
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Reply #128
HI Mike, Fine on spending a ton on each model, Mike i does not matter how much you spend on building a model as long as you enjoy building it and sailing it thats what counts some body gave me a plane called a cougar when i got it been in a crash it had been glow plug engine but i rebuilt it turned it to electric and i have had more fun flying that than anything else i fly but the guy that gave me the plane when he saw it fly was not happy. And i do get a buzz out of sorting things out like that. I have been making RF amp for video link for under water today, where i used to work the boss used to let me have blown up RF slabs but me being me i can quite often repair these, so the one that i have been working on has been repaired and now i have reworked it to work on a much lower frequency, to give you a idea of the size of the bits inside the slab the chip caps are smaller than a pin head at one time Mike i was sick of the sites of the stuff but have got interested in doing things for my self again
JOHN
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well glad your back into it.
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hi mike here are a couple of picture of a auto antenna tuner software controlled for the radio link to the boat
(http://s2.postimage.org/1znah7alg/atu_3.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1znah7alg/)
(http://s2.postimage.org/1znh3cokk/atu.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1znh3cokk/)
also this other picture is of the swr - power meter for checking atu matching of the antenna for the sub
(http://s2.postimage.org/1znxmq5ic/atu_4.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1znxmq5ic/)
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enlighten me on what these do ?
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Reply #132
HI Mike, The two pictures of the big unit this is a antenna matcher but what it does is remember matching combination for SWR it can remember in 5kHz steps all the way through the HF radio ham bands and as soon as you go back to another frequency it will switch certain relays which will switch caps and inductors to match the Ariel to a different band very quick. This can be used for Ariel under water at high power lots of watts
The small black box with blue LCD display this will tell you the SWR at the Ariel will tell you if you have a good match at the Ariel and will also tell you peak power in watts which is ideal to tell you if you have a good match at the Ariel, which will be in the water
Did you get the wood to make your boat, have you made it yet
JOHN
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so let me get this straight this here doodaa ok2 changes the setup when you change frequency on transmitter? why is it necessary to change frequency? what hurdle did you faulter at requiring this solution?
here is a link btw of my build :
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=32783.0
its now 40cm
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Im intrigued too: why are you intending to transmit high power HF, at varying frequencies, from underwater? Unless you are feeding live video back of course, but why the varying freq?
David
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Reply#135
HI David, One of the jobs that the matcher will do if i am controlling the sub on LF and then go to a higher frequency for controlling the sub under water then the matcher will automatically re-tune antenna to that band. Have been working on low frequency video link for transmitting back from under water from the submarine seem to have got it working now. The sub works on about 5 different frequency's
JOHN
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good stuff then :-)) when you do a youtube vid do you think you could give us underwater action ?
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hi mike with a bit of luck will get the sub on the water next year and will try to get a video of it under water and i will put it on utube i found this site on mayhem under electrics this is the link to it http://cp-elektronik.de/index.php/downloads the unit will split 1 channel on your tx unit into 12 switching functions that will give you on / off the pcb board has got 12 relays fitted to drive what you want the rx unit and tx side have got pics fitted with have got software on the site has got eveything you will need eg circuit diagrams and PCB layouts and the hex files to program the pics the only thing is the website is all in German but you can use goggle translater for that i have built both units and fitted in to fx-14 robbe futaba and works fine here are some pics so you have an idea of what it looks like
(http://s2.postimage.org/wypseck/image.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/wypseck/)
(http://s2.postimage.org/x3oeftw/1_2.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/x3oeftw/)
(http://s2.postimage.org/x5bxsbo/1_3.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/x5bxsbo/)
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very clever stuff. You know john i got the impression you allready had this stuff sussed 20 years ago and back then it had underwater camera and heading feedback. Are you just ugrading or was a miss informed?
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Reply#139
HI Mad Mike Yes i did do it 20 years ago but this is not just for subs, you can now use this for model boats for switching on lights, radar, sound effects, and lots of other things as well what set me off to make it was some body on a forum some where that they could not get it to work, and as it was a challenge for me i thought i would have a go i don't read German so i think i did a good job to get it to work the way it does, circuit diagrams i can read doesn't matter what language it is i get by its all quite straight forward didn't even bother translating it from German to English. Had a look at link you sent me for your boat it is very small what are you going to use for battery's to run it
JOHN
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8.4 nimh yeah it is small but i like building small boats. there easier to transport, there easier to store when not used and cheap to build. im just fitting out the bridge on it at the moment. ive made a 5/8 radar monitor for it, small box with a tiny light bulb in it and which then projects light threw an image to give the affect of a screen. i wanted to use an actual moving image with a key ring photoframe, but the one ive got wont work on this version of windows and the slide show frame is too slow to give the optical affect of a moving picture.
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Reply#141
Hi Mad Mike, That's one thing about building small it's easy to move about, that sub of mine is to big to take out regular and sail it the effort in trying to get it ready to take out to sail is a pain in the neck and the same problem when you bring it back home. Fine on battery pack for your boat i have got one of them key fob rings which show pictures I'm sure the one i got works on windows OK, I got it from boots if thats any help
I have sent you a private PM
John
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i see it now its ok.
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do you remeber when i was pming you about the use of the frame to make moving images. Do you think its possible to increase the slide show frame rate?
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Reply#144
HI Mike The moving images on the key fob ring need to have a look inside of one before i can say about increasing the slide show frame rate, on yours does it have a button to step through one by one of the pictures or does it go into auto run stepping through pictures on its own, i will have to see if i can get inside mine and see what makes it tick. Have you got a spare key fob ring that we can take apart and have a look
JOHN
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ill have to get another one. mine has 3 buttons on it i can select manual flick threw or slide show. for some reason the one i have isnt compatible with my version of windows so ill have to look on ebay for one.
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Reply#146
HI Mike Had a play with my key fob ring if i go into manual mode it will change a picture one ever second wouldn't be a problem to make a circuit to switch in manual mode if you get another key fob unit we can always have a look and see about changing it, in manual mode does yours change 1 ever second
John
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it changed over every 5 seconds but for some reason my computer wont access it. if it could be changed to say 0.20 seconds then i could decompile a gif image and upload each individual picture on to the frame. then when select slideshow the image on the screen with flicker threw the pictures and make a moving radar screen image on 1inch screen!!
like this eg:
http://blog.reddodo.com/generator/animated-radar-screen-on-your-mobile
except without your text on it
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Reply#148
HI Mike, I can see what you are trying to do and i can see why you won't it to change .2 of a second so it gives you the effect of a radar screen its strange as mine changes ever 1 second pressing button manually but yours changes ever 5 seconds. My computer runs in duel boot but works fine in windows on key fob ring if you get another one if you wont we can crack it open and have a play to see if we can mod it, been on the last few days putting video link in screen box which is also heat sink for RF output to fit inside of sub for low frequency video link
John
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it will have to wait. i could possibly send you the one i have it might work on your pc.
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hi mike key fob ring if you want to send it to me ill leave it up to you you can allways pm me
(http://s1.postimage.org/2c6z4cl8k/13102011254.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2c6z4cl8k/)
this is a pic of TX unit for video link for low frequency to go in the sub
(http://s1.postimage.org/2c7nxesn8/13102011254_1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2c7nxesn8/)
this is a pic of the receiver what works on 1249 MHz but i have change it so it will work on low frequency for receiving the video from the submarine as well
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very exciting this is. did you have video link working before?
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Reply#152
HI Mike Yes i did have video link in sub before, that was on high frequency which was in radio ham bands 70cms but this one is a lot lower in frequency and will get through the water a lot better unit is knocking out about 6 watts of RF which is quite a decent power level, but can make it a lot higher if i need to
John
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hows the sub coming along?
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REPLY #154
HI Mike sent you a private pm, you asked how sub was coming along have spent most of the time doing low frequency video link for under water but seem to be having problems with this one. I have made Ariel's for going under water decided to go down the canal and put transmitting Ariel in the water sending video out and put receiver Ariel in the water about 50ft apart and was only just getting a picture can not understand why it is not alot better than it is, would of expected a lot more range than it was think i might no what is going wrong. What i plan to do now is take transmitting Ariel for under water for 27MHZ plug it into transmitter for controlling sub take RX CB radio out of sub and take that down the canal and test to see what range i get with these as i know these units work and by testing these under water will give me a base line to work with as i can test these out of the water as well as in the water, will end up taking a load of gear down the canal but i will know if it works or not and by doing it this way will find out what i need to know.
All the best John
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i did wonder what was happening :-)) good luck with that.
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hi mike in pm message you asked about speed controllers the two pics are of a brushless speed controller that i made about three years ago i got the software and the board layouts and also the circuit diagrams from some guy in germany he was really helpfull you can also plug the speed controller in to the pc and alter all the parameters voltage , timing and so on it works really well will run at about 1500 watts at 21 volts
(http://s9.postimage.org/oxq440oqz/16112011279.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/oxq440oqz/)
(http://s12.postimage.org/dlizf58u1/16112011280.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/dlizf58u1/)
mike Ive put this on to show you one of the big electric plains i fly its an f3a pattern ship pulling 3400 watts at 42 volts 10 lipo cells no it wont go under water <:(
(http://s10.postimage.org/8p4qmb2lh/16112011282.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/8p4qmb2lh/)
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what aabout a brushed one?
why did you try your plane under water ?!?!
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Reply#158
HI Mike Can not under stand why plane would not work under water, may be i should have took the wings off.
Now being serious yes i have got circuit diagrams for brushed speed controllers have got circuits for just forward speed controllers and software and have also got circuit diagrams for speed controllers for forward and reverse, what sort of size do you won't to make it, if you need a pic programmed to work in speed controller i can program it for you if you can not do it, by using software it makes the speed controller a lot smaller, as you do not have to use other c
chips to get it all to work. Do you won't speed controller to have bec circuit for running radio in boat or what ever
in pic of plane that is the other half have been teaching her to fly but she wont's to fly the big pattern ship but she has got no chance
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you do get planes that work underwater there called aquaplanes %% :embarrassed: sorry
anyway. I would like the speed controller to be very basic. I would also like a bec if possible. all i want it to do is go forwards ands backwards with a linear style thottle. dont need a break or anything. I want to be able to make them very cheaply out of sourced or bought parts.
whats a pic? what does it do?
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You can purchase excellent ready made brushed ESC's for very little these days. I use these, and they're superb-
http://microgyros.com/speed-control-setup.html
It's difficult to beat that price if you're DIY-ing, and it probably won't be as compact unless you make it with SMD components. If you want to build one as a learning exercise, then go for it, but if you're doing it in an effort to save cash, then you'll find it's a false economy.
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well as it is i buy my esc's second hand on ebay. I won an apex square the other day for £6.67
http://www.walkera-helicopters.com/shop/apex-electronic-speed-controller-apex-square-forward-reverse-p-6986.html
its a car esc but it will do. just need to make it water resitant
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Mad Mike asked what a pic is. Some info and links for pics in model submarines below:
http://www.theassociationofmodelsubmariners.com/t375-pic-microprocessors
David
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I would really recommend having a look at Picaxe microcontrollers.
http://www.picaxe.com/What-Is-PICAXE
You program these in high level 'BASIC' which is lot easier to get to grips with.
Many of the routines built in are geared towards R/C, e.g. measuring receiver pulses and controlling servos have dedicated commands
The documentation for these controllers is excellent, with all the routines/commands well explained, with code examples. there is a free to download simulator, so you can check your code before flahing it to the chip. Also they have a great users forum, with really helpful and knowledgeable people.
The prices of the chips are roughly the same as conventional PIC microcontrollers, the penalty you pay over conventional PIC chips programmed in assembler, is speed. IF your goal is to build a leveller or perhaps a brushless ESC, then assembler may still be necessary.
However for the majority of applications you won't notice the difference, and the Picaxe chips are improving all the time, some of the latest models clock at 64mhz.
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sounds interesting. its all new to me though im afraid as far as my electrical abilities go i can wire up a bulb and thats it. I have a lot of learning to do yet and dont have a clue what i need. I have recently just learnt what a mosfet is and how they play a role in esc's and i realise theres a PWM involved i think.
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The question Mad Mike was asking was "What are pics" hence the link. (I take it you don't want to develop your own software, Mike. Though it can be an absorbing hobby.)
PICAXE has it's place , Andy and I've seen you recommend it before now.
What completed projects have you used PICAXE for, thus far?
David
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you are quite right davy. i was hoping just to be able to bash one togeather ive seen some simple forward only ones using a servo and that looked easy enough so i thought how hard can it be to make it reverse too. after all krishna has done it.
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Here's a board I made up (shown in barebones before I heatshrinked it up) for controlling up to four servos in various sequences for a fully articulated fish.
(http://s9.postimage.org/vz3ls2s17/5720_131642554448_810919448_2210728_2428152_n.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/vz3ls2s17/)
The processor is a Picaxe 28X2 interfaced via serial link to the DS-SCX8S-O, which is a servo controller. The Picaxe takes the R/C signal from two channels of the receiver and maps them via control tables to control the servos in a various modulations to get the wave motion.
I've also interfaced a Picaxe with Somo14D sound player so the Yellow Submarine can play the Beatles back catalogue.
I recommend Picaxe because I think they're an excellent way to get started, and for most people will be all they ever need.
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HI Mike
You asked what pics where but seeing that Davy 1 has put up a link on how a pic works you will find out what you won't to know from that. It is right what subculture said to build one is a false economy it can get quite expensive buying components unless it is a speed controller that has to be purpose built like for that big sub of mine it would be better for you to buy one and cheaper but if you won't to learn then to make one is the best way to go. You said that you had seen a speed controller made from a servo amp board and i think you said it was just forward speed but it would be fairly easy to make it so it would go forward and reverse a lot of the new servos digital have pics on the amp board as many years ago some of the servos chips like NE544 or ZN409CE both of these could be made into soiled state speed controllers a lot of the electronics in that big sub of mine was based on NE544 brill servo amp what i couldn't do with that was not worth knowing but sadly no longer made, but you can still get them off ebay. If you still won't to have a go at making a speed controller let me know
john
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heres a link to build a esc from a servo. it has no reverse though. do you think this could be modded to have reverse too?
http://trebor69.tripod.com/speedcnt.html
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Theres a lot of cheap esc's out there especially chinese ones like these:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/280726341886?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2648
and even this ones fairly cheap and its not a bad make.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HPI-Jolt-R-Micro-Speed-Controller-ESC-30amp-101669-/260814359971?pt=UK_ToysGames_RadioControlled_JN&hash=item3cb9bf4da3
I thought that if i couldnt make one from scratch i could also then modyfy these esc's too with more mosfets or something. I dont know what can be done.
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HI MIKE
yes it can be modded to have reverse to on speed controller
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what would it need doing to it? modding an old servo amp with a mosfet wouldnt be expensive i would have thought. people on ebay sell clapped out old servos in there dozens.
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Thanks Andy,
Yes, I remember collaborating with you on the "Fish" years ago. (I developed a programmed PIC for you, as I recall.)
Did the Fish ever actually get into the water?
David
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It did. I made a tail up out of some thin epoxy glass sheet, which flexes, and rigged it to a servo set in small foam float with a keel for stability.
The tail was submerged but the float remained on the surface, this was to test the propulsion efficiency.
Conclusion, it worked, but it was rather sluggish, and turning was a bit laboured. If the speed could be increased, then it would be much improved, but I don't think that is going to be very practical if using a normal servo. I may give it another go with some fancy servos I got which use magnetic inductors in place of carbon pots. These servos are also blindingly quick, so may try a Picaxe 08M to swing it at a higher speed, and see where that goes. Not sure what could be done about the wide turning circle. The multi-jointed fish are able to turn in their own length.
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Thanks for the update after these many years and how is the "Yellow Submarine"?
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The Yellow submarine is progressing, currently working out the gimbal prop assembly for pitch control as there are no hydroplanes on this rascal. It's been used to excellent effect on the Disney Nautilus, so it should work well on the YS too.
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Reply#173
HI Mike, What you need to connect to servo amp is called a H bridge drive circuit it will basically have 4 fets in it and needs to be logic level on gates of fets which will be 5volts, i can draw up circuit showing you how to do it if you won't. I might have some servo amps lying about some where i will have to have a look to see if i can find them
John
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I would very much appreciate that. if you could draw me up circuit diagram and if possible make a one up and a take some pictures. :-))
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Reply#179
HI Mike, At the moment i am up to my neck in electronics just give me a few days and will draw circuit up for servo speed controller and when i get time i will knock it up on my developing board and get it to rock and roll, what voltage do you won't it to work on i think you said 7.2 VOLTS can be made to work quite easy on 12VOLTS need to know how many AMPS you are going to use as this will govern how many fets you need on H bridge drive circuit
John
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hiya. yeah of course when you got some time. as far as voltage is concerned i have a handfull of batterys ranging from 7.2 to a 3s lipo which measures about 12.6v on my multimeter. I dont know if its possible but if the esc was manufactured to work at 12v would it also work on 7.2? Also i think a good allrounder amp rating will do. I reckon 40 amps continuous will be plenty of head room for a range of motors.
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Reply#181
HI Mike, circuit for speed controller can be made to work on 12.6 VOLTS 3 cell lipo and all so be made to work on 40AMPS, have you thought about voltage cut out voltage for speed controller
Said a few days ago was going to go out and try radio link for under water again, instead of taking CB radio out of sub reworked and modded another CB radio what seemed like a good idea instead of taking one out of sub any way went down canal today put transmitting Ariel for 27MHZ for controlling sub in the water and walked away from Ariel in the water, watching signal on meter for signal strength on CB radio walked about 100FT away then putting receiving Ariel in the water as well and was still receiving signal full scale, in the end i was about 500 FT away down the canal, signal strength on meter had gone down quite a bit but when i put Ariel back in to the water again the signal went up quite a bit which said that the signal was having to travel 500FT through water from transmitting Ariel to receiving Ariel i think i can now say that it works. As 500FT through water is a long way and it was receiving a very strong signal like i said before it all takes time to design but it does seem worth it now.
Had to make ATU unit to work under water as Ariel does change from being made to work in the bath to being in the canal but it has got interesting but have spent a long time on this
John
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Reply#181
HI Mike, circuit for speed controller can be made to work on 12.6 VOLTS 3 cell lipo and all so be made to work on 40AMPS, have you thought about voltage cut out voltage for speed controller
Said a few days ago was going to go out and try radio link for under water again, instead of taking CB radio out of sub reworked and modded another CB radio what seemed like a good idea instead of taking one out of sub any way went down canal today put transmitting Ariel for 27MHZ for controlling sub in the water and walked away from Ariel in the water, watching signal on meter for signal strength on CB radio walked about 100FT away then putting receiving Ariel in the water as well and was still receiving signal full scale, in the end i was about 500 FT away down the canal, signal strength on meter had gone down quite a bit but when i put Ariel back in to the water again the signal went up quite a bit which said that the signal was having to travel 500FT through water from transmitting Ariel to receiving Ariel i think i can now say that it works. As 500FT through water is a long way and it was receiving a very strong signal like i said before it all takes time to design but it does seem worth it now.
Had to make ATU unit to work under water as Ariel does change from being made to work in the bath to being in the canal but it has got interesting but have spent a long time on this
John
What id like it to be able to do is have the abillity to use a range of voltages if its possible. between 7.2 and 12v. i dont want to add a lipo LVC just yet i can learn that later.
the batteries i have that i primarily use are 7.2 and 8.4 nimh. I have a 3s lipo too but i only have one and use that for one boat and i suppose ill get more at a later date.
ok now your sub. It seems like this is a huge achiement and i have to admit its beyong my comprehesion. can you help me get to grips:
i presume that this is for the video link as you have allready got sub controll right?
did you have the video link working when you made the model 20 years ago?
what was the problem with it to make you develop it further?
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Reply#183
HI Mike, 1, Speed controller can be made to work on all voltage packs you use plus lipo 3 cell pack
2, Yes it is a huge step in being able to put Ariel in the water
3, If you stood at the bank side with transmitter in your hands and you had sub 30FT out from the bank side and had it 10FT down under water you would loss radio contact with the sub but with the TX Ariel designed to be in the water, and with it being able to transmit 500FT under water and still got a very strong signal i think it is a vast improvement i am quite pleased with the end result
Need to get same result with video link
John
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3, If you stood at the bank side with transmitter in your hands and you had sub 30FT out from the bank side and had it 10FT down under water you would loss radio contact with the sub but with the TX Ariel designed to be in the water, and with it being able to transmit 500FT under water and still got a very strong signal i think it is a vast improvement i am quite pleased with the end result
Need to get same result with video link
John
RIGHT I get where this is going now lol. It was kind of hard to understand your solutions when i didnt understand the problem but now i can see how this is something of a huge leap forwward. Well done m8. I thought id look up just how much pressure water is at 500 ft and its 216 psi!! I realise you wont be going this deep though lol. So what happened with low rf you were experimenting with? 27mhz is just normal band?? whats the difference between your radio and a standard 27mhz shop bought one?
I got some used but working servos on the way in the post. I appreciate your help
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Congratulations John. That is one heck of a breakthrough!
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HI Mike
You asked what the differences is between my 27MHZ TX for sub and a shop brought one, mine has got about 90 functions a shop brought one would not controll this sub of mine as it has not got enough channels it was all scratch built a long time ago, Plus my antenna out put is nothing like a standard TX unit plus i can switch to other bands with it. The range that i got down the canal on 27MHZ with Ariel in the water if you was to use LF being low frequency the radio would travel a lot further under water plus at LF you get a thing called ground wave
On your last post you said that you have got some servo amps coming what make of servos are they
NO problem with trying to help you if you won't to learn any time mate
All the best John
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Reply #186
HI Davy 1 Yes it did seem to work antenna really well under water i am sure that i could have done 1000FT as signal was so strong at 500FT away it will be interesting to try it on LF band and see what range i get i am quite sure i will be able to get from one end to the other on Charnwood waters
John
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hi john so what did u change then to make it work better? in a simple explanation lol
also i got the servos today they are JR standard servos. They have been modded by removing the axle between the output shaft and the position pot. i got them for a pound each plus 1.80 pnp. I tried them today and out them on my throttle channel, works fine.
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Reply#189
HI Mike, If you look on page 3 Reply#131 This unit is software controlled and will automatically tune antenna from 1MHZ all the way up to 30 MHZ in 5 KHZ steps if needs be. All software and electronics is in the brass screened box inside the unit
Good news on getting JR servos they should do the trick
John
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oh i remember that. trying to understand it makes my brain hurt {:-{ %%
i dont know what else i need though john just got servos for now.
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Reply#191
Hi Mike, Shouldn't worry about any other bits for servo speed controller until I have worked it out, one of the other jobs that I'm having to do at the moment is help my son build a custom built computer case, all i got was help me i can not do it myself so i end up having to sort it out
ALL THE BEST JOHN
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ok fair enough. Sounds like fun, is your electrical talent hereditary?
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REPLY #193
HI Mike yes i think so Mike, Hope to go down the canal and try low frequency radio link under water, this should be interesting to see what happens
All the best John
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I inherited my mechanical understand from my dad and now my two year old son seems to be getting the hang of it. best of luck with that endeavour at the lake.
I thought you had allready tried low frequency?? and the result was to use 27mhz??
how abou the video link hows that coming?
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HI David f
Antennas for under water i do seem to be getting some where now, It seems like people are struggling to see the benefits of a lot more range under water with TX Ariel being in the water i can see how it must be hard to grasp but if you think it was traveling through 500FT of water and was a very strong signal being received you guys must admit it has got to say some thing and it would have gone a lot further under water and plus i was not knocking out a lot of RF, but could have turned the power right up.
All the best John
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I hope i wasnt included in that statement about people not understanding the necessity of long range underwater :((
When the feedback works and you got the under water camer going the footage will be amazing.
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Reply#197
HI MIKE, No Mike didn't include you in the last statement, didn't have time to go down the canal at weekend weather was to bad it's not really the time of year to have your hands in water out side. I do need to test low frequency radio under water have tested as a radio link through the air and system works fine. When you go to low frequency's you have a skywood wave but also have a ground wave but as the frequency goes low the ground wood wave becomes stronger this ground wood wave should work in my favor once the Ariel is in the water its quite possible that it could have a massive range. Came across a article on the internet about radio waves under ground it was quite interesting this what I'm doing with low frequency i would think that quite a few radio hams would be interested in it
Haven't forgot about your circuit for speed controller as soon as i get time i will do it for you.
All the best John
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i went down to the lake yesterday it was freezing lol. Wouldnt have been so bad if my boat actually worked aswell as i had hoped it would. I didnt think you had forgetten bout esc, new u was busy anyway. :-))
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In regard as to what was discussed earlier about the greatest attenuation of signal taking place during the transition from air to water, it's logical to think that a further degradation of the signal will occur if the receiver aerial is placed inside the submarine or dive module, as the signal switches back from water to air.
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Reply#200
Hi Subculture, Yes you would be right in saying if TX Ariel is in the water and RX Ariel was inside a air tight box or water tight compartment it would have to go through a change from water to air which would be a large attenuation but as my RX Ariels are in the water in free flood area this is not a problem for me, one of the things i should say my RX Ariel for low frequency the antenna automatically tunes itself to the medium it is in and part of this circuit is linked to AGC which is auto gain controll. Plus all this circuitry is solid state no moving parts, just say you was using 1.8MHZ to transmit into air it would be 164meters long which is one big antenna on the ham bands it would be called 160 meters but if you put this Ariel in water it would become many times smaller which makes it quite easy to get in to a small place and is ideal for fitting inside of subs, when i have finished playing about with video link for under water and if i get it working the way i won't it to. I will then get back on designing some sonic link for under water but as you know yourself it all takes time
John
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I remebered when you was talking about silly long aerials i didnt understand back then but these days im getting better at having a clue what your talking about. can you use the same frequencies to transmit video images as you do to control your boat? could it be done by using the 2.4 ghz frequency hopping technology so that your control and live feed back dont clash?
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my RX Ariels are in the water in free flood area this is not a problem for me.
I was thinking more along the lines of those of us using commerical 27/40mhz radio equipment. In that instance we have our transmitters going from air to water (not much choice there unless we wish to separate the tuner from our TX's), and tend to spool the aerial somewhere inside the dry area, be it a cylinder, box dry hull etc.
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Reply#202
HI Mike, You asked could you use frequency hopping on low frequency's if you was to use 27MHZ if you are sending large data you would not have enough band width with out bleeding into other channels on that band. Another problem if you was sending analog video the band width would be so wide it would knock out the hole 27MHZ band you would have to go to a higher frequency to have the band width with out interfearing with other bands close by. I have made quite a few custom built RF units for all sorts of bands, like i said before Mike when you are a radio ham there is quite a few bands that you can use it does help a lot of the bands legal power limit is 400watts thats a lot of power
John
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Reply #203
HI Subculture, Yes i can see what you are getting at, one of the things that you could do is where your Ariel is on your TX transmitter you could unscrew the Ariel off it and make a matching unit which would be small and that would screw on where your Ariel come off on the other end would have a screened cable that would go down to your Ariel in the water you could even build a RF amp into it and for Ariel inside of sub there must be some where you could get Ariel into the water. If you wonted to re tune front end on receiver to match Ariel in water, but i suppose it is how far you won't to go but it does seem worth the effort
If you look at a Ariel on your 27MHZ TX unit for radio controll the Ariel on it is not even a quarter wave in length which would be about 9FT long the Ariel that you have on your TX transmitter standard is a small length which as been matched to your RF section in side your TX unit
John
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Reply#202
HI Mike, You asked could you use frequency hopping on low frequency's if you was to use 27MHZ if you are sending large data you would not have enough band width with out bleeding into other channels on that band. Another problem if you was sending analog video the band width would be so wide it would knock out the hole 27MHZ band you would have to go to a higher frequency to have the band width with out interfearing with other bands close by. I have made quite a few custom built RF units for all sorts of bands, like i said before Mike when you are a radio ham there is quite a few bands that you can use it does help a lot of the bands legal power limit is 400watts thats a lot of power
John
hmm scratch that then lol. What is it your stuck on at the moment then. I suppose you now have long range control sussed just the video now?
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REPLY#206
HI Mike, On one of your reply's you said that one of your model boats didn't go very well what went wrong, it didn't turn it self in to a submarine and sink did it lol
Still got to test low frequency under water but cannot see that being much of a problem but like you said the bit I'm stuck on at the moment is the video link for under water. Went out flying it was so cold soon came back home to the gas fire to warm up
John
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no it didnt john. Ive built a rescue boat for my other models if i get into a bit of bother. It was suppose to be FAST response but its flat fronted and has the hydrodynamics of a brick smothered with a bin liner.
anyway john its allright you hading out the stick but at least i get my boats wet!! lol
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Reply#208
HI Mike, I would like you to know the only time my sub got wet in the water was about 18 years ago and the closest it has got to water is filling the ballast tanks with water. But with a bit of luck will get it in the water next year, its getting to cold now to go in the garage and do work on the sub but the last few days have been testing the electronics to see if it behaves it self in cold weather there is a lot of electronics in there
John
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tut more waiting %) i suppose if you get the camera working you will have to patent it :-))
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Reply#210
HI Mike, Trouble with patents is it costs a lot of money to see it through to the end to make the product, and if you don't see it through to the end and don't take out a full patent some body else can copy it later on and make a lot of money out of it best thing to do is keep it to your self other wise people will try to make money out of it. But this is just my personal thought's
Have drawn out your circuit for your H bridge drive circuit to marry up to your servo amp board, have done circuit using as lease components as i can to make it work will knock it up on development board and try it to make sure it works and then will sort out how to get circuit diagram to you.
All the best John
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i understand why you wouldnt patent it but think of the possibilities!! marine research, criminal investigations, search and rescue, would be a mega break through. youl have to go on dragons den lol.
thank for designing my esc. I found a shop just down the road that sells all types of mosfet, chips and doodaas. looking forward to your post
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Reply#212
HI Mike, I have had people copy what i have designed before and am very carefull what i give away now. I have just rebuilt RF amp that some one gave me which had blown all 8 fets but the fets that was in it are expensive to buy but what you can do if you use a IRF520 which is a power fet which is not designed for RF but if you know what you are doing you can use them to put in this amp it is now knocking out 150watts of RF which is not bad for using IRF520 POWER FETS people have used them to repair CB radios which has just got 1 device fitted but when you won't to put 8 in you have got to make sure that they load share don't think any one has done this before as devices are not matched but i do get a BUZZ out of doing things like this .
Glad that you have found a shop down the road for buying bits that you need for speed controller like i said before Mike i don't mind helping somebody that won't to learn can probably help with some bits to make first unit, one thing for you to think about is FETS that you need for H bridge circuit for speed controller need to be logic level FETS which means that the gate voltage will be 5 volts not 10 as on standard fets which there is a thing called RDS which is internal resistance needs to be as low as possible to keep heat down on fets .
I will work out which fets you need to use which you can get from RS or Farnell
All the best John
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Im not suprised people have nicked your stuff john its pioneering. I just think you should be credited with your work :-))
refering to the fets, not long ago when i was researching such things, i was watching a you tube video explaining their operation. Anyway it showed on the vid the 5v operation needed for the gate and the use of a resistor on it to bring the voltage down. Im getting there slowly%%
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Reply#214
HI Mike, Yes it does make you very secretive i have got about 5 folders full of circuits that i have worked out for allsorts of stuff i have got just 1 folder full of just the sub bits, when i first started to rebuild that big sub of mine i was finding circuit boards and didn't know what they did as i had not seen inside it for so long. lol
Do you ever have a week where every thing is going wrong thats what seems to be happening to me this week my HF ham radio decided to have a wobbly just spent all day fixing that blow the misses kettle up this morning and all i did was switch it on even the microwave oven went bang last week and the week before the washing machine went bang what a month it does get expensive changing all these things.
Hopefully later this week i will knock your circuit up and try it
John
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its all that LRF floating round your house its creating EMP's frying everything %%
im sure that the esc is good. does it have a BEC?
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Reply#216
HI Mike, Don't say things like that about low frequency blowing up bits in the house, or her in doors will shut my room down and i won't be able to play any more plus she will properly have a melt down don't know if i said or not but Robert said it was me that blow is wide screen TV up its gone where all TVS go in the end TV HEVEN he had to go and buy a new one plus he said I'm not getting any thing for Christmas.
Speed controller circuit i can soon draw a BEC circuit on to it how much current do you won't enough to run the grid lol
John
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NO i dont want to run the grid or you will be draining it all trying to make LRF and blowing things up. Get some lead lining on your walls or else everyone will start growing third nipples.
seriously i dont know what amps and volts though, whats the standard? 5V 1A?
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Reply#218
HI MIKE, To late Robert has already got one and now he says it's my fault that he is getting headaches
Drawing that i did for H bridge drive circuit knocked it up on developing board works fine but what might be a idea is to send me one of those servo amps that you brought off ebay and let me try one to make sure it works ok on H bridge drive circuit. No problem to fit 1AMP 5VOLTS BEC
John
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its not a headache hes having itl be a cist created buy a radiation leakage and before he whats going on itl start talking to him! have you ever tried making radio waves using a magnetron from a microwave??
I think 5v 1 amp is enough to drive 1 standard servo and a RX on a 2 channel radio, dont you think?
If you pm me your address ill send you it. Also how much will cost to make these?
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Reply#220
HI Mike, Yes Mike you could use a magnetron out of a microwave oven they use the same thing for radar it is probably one of the reasons we won the battle of Britain back in the 2nd world war, one of the most important things that was sent from Britain to the USA as they couldn't get radar to work some thing else we gave away.I don't think we had better get to much into magnetron's as i am RF power mad
One of the things i did a few years ago was to take apart a LNB off a satellite dish the type they use for sky broad cast take the PCB board out of it cut it up into different sections and put it all back together so it will transmit 10GHZ sending out video picture quality was as good as say BBC TV full sound as well, that plugged into RF amp knocking out quite a lot of power on 10GHZ which is not the best things to work with as this frequency will start to cook your body if close enough
Yes 1 AMP 5V REG should be OK
Will send you PM john
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yeah im into world war history. I actually found it very interesting when i was a kid and my grandad use to tell me about his days in the war lol. Ive asked a few people in the past about their accounts. Not many people left now.
Is working with RF your job speciality or just a hobby?
thanks for adress
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Reply#222
HI Mike, I can remember my granddad telling me story's about the 1st world war some of it was a bit grim to say the least
RF did start off as a hobby but then i worked in Microwave RF for about 11 years i got so sick of it in the end i couldn't be bothered with it but now i have started to get interested in it again its not so much like a bus mans holiday now. I have worked on all sorts of microwave electronics a lot of this was to do with sending video encrypted and sound as well, it had a lot to do with surveillance in all sorts of things with out saying to much.
Some of the video equipment was on 2.3GHZ and was knocking out 30watts of RF and for saying that some of the 2.4 GHZ radio gear that we use for our planes or boats or what ever you don't have to think very hard to know why we still get lock out on radio equipment on 2.4GHZ it doesn't matter what you use as a radio link nothing is immune to interference but this is just my own personal point of view.
JOHN
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Obviously there be bad bits but there are also great hero moments and funny moments too.
I know what you mean how doing your hobby proffesionally can ruin the enjoyment of it in the first place. While i was employed i did very little construction at home because i just spent 8 hours wielding a spanner at work.
I heard somewhere that even the WIFI on your home network can interfere with your TXRX reception.
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Reply#224
HI Mike Got your servo AMP through the post today will have a look as soon as i can, you said that you had heard that WIFI could course interference to radio control on 2.4 GHZ yes it could but it would have to be pretty close by to course a problem as they don't knock out much RF
One of the things i was going to say a while ago i know you are in to mechanical things more than electronics you might find this interesting when i made the compressor for the sub i converted a 10CC model boat engine water cooled job to take the roll of a compressor in the sub when i pressure tested the air tanks for storing compressed air the 10CC engine put in 340 PSI in to the air tanks and was still going, one thing i should say is all this test was done with air tanks and every thing under water to see if there was any leaks and if some thing went bang the water would absorb it as these sort of pressures are dangerous once this test was done air tanks would be set so air tanks would only be filled to 140PSI the sub sits at this pressure all the time even as it sits in the garage. Compressor has got auto loob injection meaning when compressor first starts up it takes a few drops of oil from a oil storage tank with one way valve and flow controll valve, this is sucked up by air intake on compressor which is on a timing circuit and then switches back to air in take after oil has gone through compressor it is separated off by catching chamber and clean compressed air is feed to air tanks. As it seems to have worked for 20 years what more could you ask, as i think it is quite reliable
John
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Don't you need a boiler cert to run those sort of pressures?
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you got the package today?? If i remeber rightly i sent that first class monday morning, it should have got to you by tuesday.
ah good im please you got mechanical i know what your talking about now. what are you using as air tanks john?
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Reply #226
Hi Subculture, The air tanks that are in the sub have not been welded in any way they where made from hydraulic ram cylinders with pistons took out these units will take a lot more pressure than i can put into them, these units bolt together there is two of them inside the sub and i would not won't to have to take them out to have them pressure checked and tested as i would end up taking the sub a part as these was one of the first things to go in it next thing to go in was central ballast tank which holds two gallons of water and it would be a pain in the neck to take it out. As i can not see these air tanks going BANG in the for see able future, all fittings are industrial type including all values and regulators. You must admit that if it has stood like this for 20 years and still works the same as it did when it was first made it's got to say some thing
John
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hydraulic ram cylinders eh? bet their heavy lol, what they from?
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hi mike here is a picture of the autopilot thats going to go in to the sub you will be able to set waypoints so the sub will do the preset course on the water the garmin unit is picking up saterlite link for data
(http://s9.postimage.org/d8fn9h2sb/19122011317.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/d8fn9h2sb/)
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wow awesome. Theres more technology in this sub than the real thing, will the signals from the satelite reach the sub underwater or this only for surface use?
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Can the satellite signal transmit through water? Or do you revert to compass heading for underwater.
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Reply #231
HI Mike, Yes it is starting to get hitec no you will not be able to pick up satellites GPS under water what you will Babel to do is have patch antenna under the floor of the conning tower even with having decks are under water you will still be able to pick up GPS link, then once sub submerges it will run on auto compass unit for navigation
You asked where the hydraulic rams heavy that i used for the air tanks the answer to that it NO they are made of some special grade alloy. A friend of mine got them for me if i remember right they was going to be scraped
Other thing that i was going to say about compressor one of the main problems that i had was trying to fine an electric motor that could take the constant hammer ever motor i tried it gave up and went bang, the motor that i found in the end to run it was off a industrial photo copier machine, was meant to run on 48Volts but it runs in the sub on 24Volts it has worked very well. Motor is linked with positive drive belt, has still got the same belt fitted from when i did it many years ago
All the best John
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will the gps be able to find its position using the compass, obviously it wont be able to gauge distance though just direction. im suprised there weret many motors out there that couldnt cope witht the demand of the pump :o
did you manage to get that amp board i sent you working in your esc circuit?
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Reply#234
HI Mike, Trouble was trying to find motor that didn't pull much currant but had got high talk and had got to be small, when compressor is running only pulls 2AMPS at 24VOLTS
Have not tried your AMP board yet will get around to it as soon as i can
John
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you know for my last boat i bought a 12v car tyre pump, it had a 540 motor in it and the pump cost 4 pound from bargain madness. I stripped the 540 motor out of it but kept the pump in my tool box im sure ill find some use for it some day. it pumps up 150 psi i think and has a reduction gear box and pressure guage fixed to it. It seems like a good find if i ever need a supply of compressed air. pulls a bit more than 2 amps i think though, dont know really.
do you mind me sharing my new found knowledge of esc making on here?
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Reply#236
HI Mike, Going back to picture of GPS unit that i stuck up the other day on hear, one of the other things you will be able to do is send data back from the sub through radio link and would link up to the laptop or PC with the soft ware that i have got you would be able to bring up on screen of laptop the lake or what ever water you was on and all the data would be displayed on the screen where the sub is in the water doing its thing, plus would leave trail on the screen telling you the route which it has come from and where it is going. Its a good job i have got big battery's in the sub to run all this
Circuit for speed controller for drive circuit H bridge not really bothered what you do with it Mike but need to make sure it works first on your servo amp board
John
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so what i gather this can only be used on the surface, if the compass works underwater and send back live data of its angle it wont be able to say its actual position, because without the gps it cant measure distance.
Could this be done with sonar? With 4 sensors on the sub. 1 at front 1 at back and 2 on either side. Then using sound to gauge the coordinates of the sub on the lake by the pings bouncing off the banks?
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Reply#238
Hi Mike, Yes once the sub is under the water you won't no where it is because you have lost satellite down link. But what you said about sonar having four sensors one to front one to back and one on each side of the sub I'm sorry to say that the sonar side of it is all new to me at the moment but i have been looking up a lot of stuff on it as i won't to get in to playing about with sonar as it would get the brain matter going. Have a look on the net under SDR radio that is some thing that you would be able to use linked to sonar as it is soft ware controlled radio program lots of radio hams are using it for different radio bands as it can be used right down to a few KHZ. And if you used a soft ware package which you can get and can be set up to take out back ground noise so you are just left with the frequency that you won't to listen in on.
I think you would have to use a thing called a passive sonar head which i would make to have a look at 360 degrees all round vision got a few ideas but will keep quite about that one
John
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well get the sub on the water before you start upgrading it too sonar navigation. Would be cool though :o
i suppose you could strip a cheap fishfinder to see how they work and incorperate their technology:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GARMIN-FISHFINDER-400C-COLOUR-DUAL-TRANSDUCER-FF400C-UK-/220904128188?pt=UK_SportingGoods_FishingAcces_RL&hash=item336ee97ebc
obviously this one is silly money but you know what i mean.
have you ever built a radar before?
oh another thing how can you use passive sonar to locate the postion of your own sub?? ideal for listening to other subs yeah but thats all does is listen youl need the ping of the active sonar for it to bounce off the banks of the lake to gauge the subs position.
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Steady on Mike - you are on a "technological roll here"! ;)
And ideas are easy - it is getting them to work that is hard!
As far as sonar is concerned, what is more useful perhaps is to have the active "sonar" on the bank and a "transponder" on the sub. Return pulse can then give you range and bearing.
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oh yeah suppose that would be easier. I dont know how to make it work, that johns job. :-))
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Reply#241
HI Davy 1 You could be right about having transponder on the sub and active sonar on the bank side, but like you said Davy its easy to have the ideas but its hard to get them to work thats the hard bit. But sonar is new to me i don't think it is going to be easy to get it to work, this is some thing i will do a lot later on. One of the problems is having transponder on the sub its going to have to knock out a lot of power i would say to get the range, I know that you have been using sonic sound to find lost models in the water.
If i tried to work on sonar now i don't think i would get the sub in the water for a long time and i won't to get it on the water next year
Is the giro thats been modded to level control working OK
All the best John
PS HAPPY CHRISTMAS /HAPPY NEW YEAR TO EVERY ONE ON THE FORUM
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just got to link up video now eh john, not much point in having sonar when you can see where your going. you off work for christmas?
merry christmas and all that :-))
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Reply#244
HI Mike Its got to cold to mess about with antennas in the canal to test video link going to have to wait till it gets a bit warmer, any way i have got loads to do on other bits. I have not had to go to work for about 4 years now so i get loads of time to play and mess about with electronics if i had to go back to work i would not have had time to rebuild the sub, it would have took a long time to get it back together
That speed controller that you won't to do i had to design a servo for rudder control the mechanics in it are out of electric window motor and gear box from a car and that has got a H bridge drive circuit working off servo amp board unit is very powerful to work the rudder and is digital proportional control the same as you would have for what you would use in your model boat.
John
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theres a bloke on here that posted the other day his servo:
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=34532.0;topicseen
thought you was still working, you ready for crimbo?
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Reply#246
HI Mike Had a look at link you posted on the servo H bridge it's using transistors basic problem is transistors run hot on high currant because they loss .6 of a volt through junction of transistor if you did the same circuit using fets the voltage drop from drain to source on the fet would be so low that it would not generate much heat so you would not have to use a heatsink to keep the fets cool when under load. The junction of a fet the lose they call RDS
Other problem is if you use a servo amp out of a normal servo you normally would have to use a resistor about 560k from off one side of motor back to timing circuit on servo amp especially if you was trying to make a fast moving servo if you don't get this right then servo would hunt and over shoot on movement of the servo arm, it can get quite involved to get it right the one in my sub sits on custom made PCB.
BA-HUMBUG DOES THAT TELL YOU ANYTHING
JOHN PS Pauline has got me more electronic bits for Christmas
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Has the ghost of Jacob Marley been around yet then?
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I thought fets were a type of transistor %% have to do more study. looks like you did allright for christmas. i got lots of smellys, i think people are trying to say something.
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FETs are Field Effect Transistors
Ned
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mike have a look on here as i have entered the sub into a compotion http://forum.sub-driver.com/forumdisplay.php?54-THE-2011-MODEL-SUBMARINE-COMPETITION john
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cant see the pics, not a member. when do they pick the winner then?
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HI Mike
Not sure don't know weather it ends New Years Day or what. See if you can get registered on site. Did you have a good Christmas day Sub doesn't seem to be getting much interest Mike, only entered it about 2 to 3 weeks ago i thought these YANKS would be in to high tec stuff, but may be it is a shock to say it was done in 1993 lol
John
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i was looking threw the date of the posts and saw your first post was 12/1/11 i thought that was 12 of january, just realised thats 1st of december. I think you will find that when you first posted example on here say, it gained a lot of interest. People are waiting for the footage of it doing what you say it can, including me. Once you got the footage with the on board camera going down 500 ft and relaying depths and finding its own way back home you will have more of an audience. Ill register with the site. The kids this year got some bedroom furnature from santa and so muggins here spent the hole say building flat pack. started at 9:30 am and finished 9:30 pm lol, got some nice presents though, clothes, smelly, socks. Usual dad stuff.
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Very few model submariners get involved in the nitty gritty of electronics in their models, especially these days with most control devices available commercially. Most concentrate on the hull and mechancial aspects of designs, and work with the radio etc. at a 'black box' level.
So don't be discouraged if there isn't much response, I expect many are impressed by your work on the Gato, but don't really feel qualified to comment.
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Reply#254
HI Mike, I can see what you are saying about people wonting to see a video of it in action on the water, but even so there has been quite a bit of interest on hear and people on the forum have passed nice comments on it, but the trouble is trying to get some thing this size back on the water is a lot of time and money to do it just the battery's would cost £500 and that is just one item it does get expensive, plus with having to rebuild a lot of the electronics that gets expensive as well. And now we will have to have tow bar fitter to the car
Fine on having to build flat packs for the kids been there done that
JOHN
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Reply#255
Hi Subculture, Yes i can under stand that may be a lot of people don't won't to get in to electronics in model submarines when they can buy what they won't but that takes the fun out of it for me, if i had to just build the hull of a submarine i think i would get board with it quick, but that is just my point of view and don't won't it to sound funny. You said that just being able to buy a black box and plug and play and go the same thing has happened on the radio ham bands people don't build any more just buy but I'm not saying every one does that as that would not be fair to say. I remember making my first radio controlled at about 12 years of age and have played around with RF for more years than i care to remember and i am still learning now. I think i get my buzz out of doing electronics and getting it to work when nobody else can
You said don't get discouraged about the other forum i just thought there would have been more interest than there has been its very hard to put info up when it was started 25 years ago, quite a bit of the info has got lost over the years as i said some where before i did not think i would ever go back to subs
All the best John
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500 quid!?!?! where do you get your batteries from? I registered with that site and had look threw the pics, I even managed to read the magazine article. From that article i gather you allready had the video feedback running so why have you changed it? I gather that the voice link that told you the depth etc has been changed to a heads up display (or whatever its called)
Couldnt you have just used the original frequency that voice link used to send data back, and the original frequency for the live video. Then mix the two with the laptop bank side to make the heads up display.
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Well it's a big boat, and IIRC from earlier postings, running at a high voltage, which means lots of batteries needed. Couple of a dozen batteries at £20-ish a pop, and you soon drop £500.
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HI Mike,
Yes when you start talking about 5 battery's at 12V at 24AMPS plus one battery 12V 17AMPS it does start to mount up in cost, plus there is other battery's for running the other gear on the bank side TV transmitter for sub and so on you do need to have a few battery's
Video link that was originally on the sub frequency is to high for transmitting under water need to go a lot lower in frequency, radio link for verbal messages back from sub band width is to narrow to use for fast data plus it is on 49MHZ licence free the same sort of thing they use for walkie talkie radio and i think they use the same thing for baby monitors now in the house
By the time I'm finished there will be that many radio links in this sub it will shut it self down due to radio interference or take it self off to hide.
PS you haven't got a old scrapped GPS unit as i won't to take the antenna out of it to use on the sub i can make one but it will end up twice the size. Satellite down links work on two frequency's it has been chosen because it is the only micro wave frequency what is better at getting through clouds than any other .
John
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theres a gps antennas on ebay if you can find anything useful:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/GPS-/139835/i.html?_nkw=gps+antenna&_catref=1&_sop=15&_trksid=p3286.c0.m1538
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Garmin-GA-27C-low-profile-GPS-antenna-011-00149-05-Fits-many-other-makes-/110799323502?pt=UK_CE_GPS_Accessories_Software_ET&hash=item19cc27816e
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HI Mike, Thanks for links on GPS units not quite sure what to do with GPS receiving antenna
Been trying to work out how much extra weight i need to put in the sub to trim it because i have put different battery's in they are a lot lighter plus i have put more electronics in it have worked it out that i need 1.4KG in front of sub and 2.9KG in the back, which is a right pain as i don't know where I'm going to put it don't say a word lol, because trying to fit ant thing in the back there is not much room to get any thing in there now i can see me having to take the battery's out of the back and what a job that is. As a load of PCB boards sits on top of the battery's
John
HAPPY NEW YEAR
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do you think that the plug in type gps anttena would work?
this one has 11 hours to go you might get it under a 5er and its for the garmin gps!
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Garmin-GA-27C-low-profile-GPS-antenna-011-00149-05-Fits-many-other-makes-/110799323502?pt=UK_CE_GPS_Accessories_Software_ET&hash=item19cc27816e
maybe if you looked inside it i dont know what you would find be maybe you could swap it for the mock annteas on the conning tower. if thats the right word.
also as far as ballast cant you stick some lead ballast to the inside of the torped bay area? and maybe squeeze some in the back? you could allways flood the ballast tanks a little too if all else fails.
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(http://s15.postimage.org/77mwy7kmf/01012012322.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/77mwy7kmf/)
hi mike thought id post pictures of antennas the one on the left hand side is for 10 ghz notice how small it is next to the 20p pence the one on the right hand side is for 2.4 ghz notice how the frequency goes lower the antenna gets bigger
if you were to do the same antenna for 27MHz it would be 18ft long
(http://s13.postimage.org/fzfj3280j/01012012326.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/fzfj3280j/)
(http://s16.postimage.org/qobrf3o6p/01012012323.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/qobrf3o6p/)
TWO pics above are of what they call patch antenna it is for 2.3 GHZ is made on PCB board and as you can see it is thin it is ideal to use for GPS antenna in sub only problem is making it for 1.5 GHZ will get a bit big to get in side of conning tower. under top deck HAPPY NEW YEAR JOHN
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ahh i see. I remeber something you educating me before on the rediculous lengths of 27mhz antennas and how they are shortedned down by a matter of X percentage to be used for transmitters. I suggested the conning tower if it was the stick type antenna but obviously now i see its flat. does the antenna have to be:
a) flat
b) pointing flat side down towards the sky?
i was thinking possibly if its thin it could be pressed to the side wall of the conning tower or even on the under side of the deck. Obviously the conning tower is a little rounded on the side i would say that a 1.5ghz flat antenna would be 4 inches roughly in diameter.
erm another thing how is the testing going with that servo i sent you?
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HI MIKE
Antenna does have to be laying flat pointing up at the sky to make one out of PCB board is going to be to big to glue to the floor underneath, there is another antenna called a HELIX that won't be as wide as patch antenna but will stand a lot higher i can not think of any where else to put it apart from in the conning tower. I thought i might be able to get it in where all the periscopes are but not enough room
Haven't had time to look at servo amp been trying to sort out the problem with extra weight i need to go in the sub will have a look as soon as i get chance
John
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i was just looking threw though those vids again and it is really tightly packed lol. Like i said the only the thing i can think of for ballast is too stick lead wheel balancers on the inside of the hull. youl need a lot though. dunno bout anntenna.
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HI MIKE
Been making up one of the weights to go in the back of sub the resin will not go off, the idea was to put weights in little container that i made up put resin in to hold all in place and the resin will not go off, tried warming it and still does not won't to know its a pain when you cut all the metal up put it in the unit, have brought it in the house to see if it will go off if it doesn't it will be scrap it and think again. Tried some other resin mixed it with hardener and that went off fine what a pain in the neck trouble is it is just to cold in the garage to do jobs like this think i should have left it till the summer but trying to get it ready to take out in the summer.
Just found GPS antenna down Maplins really small ideal to use but my garmin GPS unit seems to have a strange socket don't think it will fit the one from Maplins got to be a bit carefull as the out put on the Garmin unit gives out Volts to run preamp on GPS antenna couldn't tell me down Maplins if it had got preamp on the antenna or not
JOHN
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itl be the weather an all that stopping the epoxy going off. gps antenna sounds like a plan im sure youl think of way to bodge them togeather :-))
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HI MIKE,
Well that resin would not go off but saying that some of it did, but the other that didn't go off was like thick tar, so today i smashed it apart to get metal out of resin you have never seen such a mess the stuff went ever where. In the end got all the metal cleaned up and me, had to make a new box for it use some new resin and glad to say it has gone off, think you was probably right the cold did effect the resin but still can not under stand why it went off in places but where it went off was around the metal
Went down Maplins tonight took GPS garmin with me to see if GPS antenna would fit the socket and guess what it did but i had to test it to make sure it would not blow my garmin unit up and it works great and it only cost 11 pounds cheap at half the price. Its only about 45mm square it should not be a problem fitting it in the sub problem is Mike when you go to make one because of the ones that you buy have a ceramic dielectric thats why they can make them so small if i was to make one it would be a lot bigger
JOHN
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well so far so good then eh :-)) have you decided where your putting the weights yet have you found a niche for them.
All i meant was if you have a garmin connector and a antenna of some other brand just cut the wires and solder the garmin connector on. To be honest with you i just spouting rubbish really wouldnt have actually suggested you did it because im sure you wouldve done that yourself if it was feasable and definatly not making your on antenna.
I get the feeling your at a dead end with the live camera footage feedback doodaa %% (for lack of better words)
has the camera ever worked?
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HI Mike
Have made the two units now for the weights to go in the sub its worked out quite well, battery's at the back of the sub had got a space between the two battery's so one of the weight's will fit in between there it weighs 6.3 pounds and as it worked out at the front of the sub had got a 19mm gap between the battery's so that fitted there quite well that weighed 3.1 pounds , plus these weight's will stop the battery's moving in there battery bays, sub should be pretty close to ideal weight might need a few gram's still to get it spot on
GPS unit had not got plug to fit garmin unit it was a strange plug that fits it like you said would have cut cable off if need be
You asked about video link it was on 435MHZ yes it worked fine in the sub but once sub submerged it was very limited range have got footage of it on video DVD . Haven't had time to get back on to low frequency video link been busy with to many other things at the moment
Sent you a private PM
JOHN
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HI Mike
Had a problem with the prop shafts on the sub leaking lubricant in shafts, on one end of the prop shaft there is a lip seal on the inside where the drive cog is what the poss drive belt goes to that seal was not the problem that was OK it was on the other end of the prop shaft there is a silicone rubber o ring that sits on the stainless steel shaft that has got a slit grove in it to hold the seal in place this all sits in a cup at the end of the prop shaft so the water can lubricate it and cool it as water is the ideal thing for it but it was pumping out of the seal lubricant out of the shaft after been running for about 3 hours. So ended up making another unit that would fit on the end of the cup where the silicone rubber o ring is so it would have another lip seal on the end of that but guess what it still ended up leaking not sure if it is the lubricant heating up expanding and pumping its way out of shaft, don't like the idea of water being able to come up the prop shafts and get inside of the sub, the new lip seal that i have fitted on the end of the prop shaft have fitted it is the wrong way around so idea is when pressure on out side of sub when sub dives, will push lip seal harder on to prop shaft and help it seal better what a pain in the neck it is don't you just hate problems like this. I have even changed inner stainless steel shafts and it is still doing it do not won't to have to take them out of the sub i could not think of anything worse to have to change on the sub.
JOHN
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typical sods law youl end up taking them out. Sub bein sat for 20 years im not suprised the rubbers have gone.
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HI Mike
Lip seals on prop shafts are not made of rubber and should not degrade over time, and there is no heat to speak of to course a problem, the silicone rubber o ring even with it being in there 20 years it looked no different from the day it was put in plus it didn't look worn, but if you use silicone rubber bath sealent it's normally good for 10 years and the biggest problem why it would degrade is sun light being on it
John
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dunno then. what are you going to do?
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HI Mike
Was talking to some body else who is into model subs and also in to engineering he was saying it is probably because prop shafts are to full of lubricant so for the time being I'm going to leave them alone. Have tried to see if i can feel side movement on shafts but all seems OK did wonder if it was because prop shafts where bent but i can not see any thing wrong
JOHN
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hi all i thought id post these pictures i have found of the sub they are from 1993 so along time ago now
(http://s14.postimage.org/6rbhlhu4d/IMAG0040.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/6rbhlhu4d/)
(http://s15.postimage.org/wgyiyg1jb/IMAG0041.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/wgyiyg1jb/)
(http://s18.postimage.org/nbxke3tnp/IMAG0042.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/nbxke3tnp/)
(http://s17.postimage.org/9qng5q9y3/IMAG0043.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/9qng5q9y3/)
(http://s18.postimage.org/rwsxkis4l/IMAG0044.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/rwsxkis4l/)
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hey john where you been?? pics look great also got to say that the lake your sailing at looks similar to wear i sail.
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HI Mike
Have been up to my neck with electronics, and also been helping my son custom build a computer tower and water cool it what a game that has been, it is running the CPU at about 26GHZ it is fast but he is doing my head in.
Pity that the pictures came out a bit dark of the sub on the water but it does show that it has been under the water a few months ago i brought a camera come camcorder does 1080p format with memory card picture quality is brill hopefully will get to use it when i take the sub out later this year to video it
You said it looks a lot like the water where you sail i don't know how deep it is where you go but it is about 90ft deep where i used to sail it trouble is when you sail in water that deep if you lose the sub you might not get it back and it is a big piece of water to go looking for a 12ft sub even with divers
John
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the place i sail is an old iron ore quarry havent a clue how deep it is, I heard theres a bus at the bottom of it lol. Anyway keep us posted with your progress.
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HI Mike
You said that there is a bus at the bottom of the quarry where you sail hope the driver is still not in it. I found on hear a circuit for speed controller has got relay for forward and reverse with art work for PCB board and has got HEX file for programming pic have printed off art work to make PCB if you are interested let me know, i know you said that you didn't won't to have to program a pic for speed controller as you are not into programming but i can do one for you
How i have got rid of that son of mine with that Mickey mouse computer i might be able to get on with other things will have to test that H bridge for circuit for you and try it on servo amp and see if it rock and rolls, all so won't to get some more done on my sub, had it switched on the other day and it was about 6 below out side and it still worked fine spent hours trying to flatten the battery's
John
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I should hope so I got a return ticket! I might make a complaint to bus depot get my money back it still hasnt arrived!!
From what i gather making my own esc's is no more cheaper than buying them, which was the original intent and purpose.
If you can get it to work using an old £1.50 servo then that would be fine, If i can learn how to do it and no what to look for as in fets and stuff i can buy a batch of old busted servos, and eventually salvage fets and stuff from electrical junk dumped in the street. If it dont work then never mind O0
as it stands at the minute i use car esc's and i spend no more than a tenner on them. I think i have 1 boat that has a marine esc in it and that was a birthday present.
Anyway about your sub. have you had any brainwaves lately how to get the video to work, or are you still pondering that? You know last time we was talking about it i had an idea dunno if it would work of course. You said that youl control your sub on 27mhz ok. Well what if your video link was on that too, now obivously you wont get enough data down one 27mhz rf link so what about if it was sent down 3 or 4 seperate rf links using 27mhz crystals or whatever to stay in there own bands. Say the sub spliced the video data into 3 or 4 data streams on board the sub, send the data down the 3 or 4 rf links which then is picked up buy receivers. Then computer software compiles the data streams backtogeather to make an image on a laptop or something.
Anyway theres my thinking dont even know if its possible, out my depth now
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HI Mike
Sorry for long delay in replying, i have not been very well but seem to be getting better now. Fine on wonting to use servo amp to make speed controller, if you won't to get hold of some good fets try and get hold of some mother boards out of computers as some of these fets have a very low on resistance from drain to source, and the lower this is the less heat you get from the fet i even do this myself. Some of them are very good fets
Won't to get back on to video link for under water, you said about using modems to make low frequency video link you posted a link on hear for some company that was starting to develop one of these units trouble is if you was to try to put it in to a model sub i don't think i would get all the gear in side of my 12 ft sub, but now the weather is getting a bit better i should be able to start to do tests in water with out getting frost bit.
Had a small problem with that sub of mine drifting of one of the oscillator's which you did not see unless the sub was on for quite a while in the end i locked it with a crystal should not have been a problem but it works OK now
Have been looking in to being able to use LF for model sub's and being able to make a small unit that would fit in to a small sub i think i have found the ideal chip to use as it would make a small unit but i just don't know if there is a big enough market to make it worth doing
John
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Chicken and egg situation I think.
I think people would need to see the benefit of a LF system to decide if it's worth going for.
Much as I'd like to see something like this come along I think the market would be small for as long as inexpensive 40mhz equipment is available, as the performance of such systems is generally satisfactory for the majority of users (e.g. out of sight before out of range).
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HI Subculture
I think i have to say that i think you are wright, with cheap 40MHZ radio's out there i can not see any one wonting to spend a lot of money on LF as a lot of these people with model subs seem to only go in shallow water, one of the benefits of going LF is not having to worry about somebody else on the same channel as you, especially at model shows
Have also been looking into sonic control of subs under water that looks quite possible as i know how to make high power transducers for RX and TX could be looking to go 500FT down in the water, but as you know i like playing around with electronics
A lot of people seem to look at electronics as being TABO and some thing to stay away from but not me i like the challenge to do difficult projects that's what i get my buzz out of but sad to say once i get it working i loss interest very quick and then pick up the ball and start on some thing else
John
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I think the sonic system would have more of a market, as you can use that in salt water as well as fresh.
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HI Mike
Sorry for long delay in replying, i have not been very well but seem to be getting better now. Fine on wonting to use servo amp to make speed controller, if you won't to get hold of some good fets try and get hold of some mother boards out of computers as some of these fets have a very low on resistance from drain to source, and the lower this is the less heat you get from the fet i even do this myself. Some of them are very good fets
Won't to get back on to video link for under water, you said about using modems to make low frequency video link you posted a link on hear for some company that was starting to develop one of these units trouble is if you was to try to put it in to a model sub i don't think i would get all the gear in side of my 12 ft sub, but now the weather is getting a bit better i should be able to start to do tests in water with out getting frost bit.
Had a small problem with that sub of mine drifting of one of the oscillator's which you did not see unless the sub was on for quite a while in the end i locked it with a crystal should not have been a problem but it works OK now
Have been looking in to being able to use LF for model sub's and being able to make a small unit that would fit in to a small sub i think i have found the ideal chip to use as it would make a small unit but i just don't know if there is a big enough market to make it worth doing
John
hope you get well soon. The thing about the modems was for control, the post i made on 16th of feb was about using rf to send video link. I suppose if the same problem occurs with space then then yeah thats an obsticle but would splicing the video data into seperate rf streams and recompiling them on land work?
as far an the esc is concerned have you got it to work?
mike
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HI Mike
Using modems to send data back from sub or what ever if you was sending back 3 data streams i suppose the hardest bit would be putting it all back together to make a video picture but you could use the PC on the land to do all the hard work so then would just need soft ware to do it. It would be interesting to know what frequency they are using for link.
Speed controller have got H bridge to work forward and reverse but have not connected up to servo amp yet will have to give it a try
John
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HI Subculture
I think sonic link is the way to go my thoughts are using sonic link you would not have to worry about using different radio bands in different country's as the sonic one as far as i know you would not need to worry about licence
problems but i might be wrong
John
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HI Mike
Using modems to send data back from sub or what ever if you was sending back 3 data streams i suppose the hardest bit would be putting it all back together to make a video picture but you could use the PC on the land to do all the hard work so then would just need soft ware to do it. It would be interesting to know what frequency they are using for link.
Speed controller have got H bridge to work forward and reverse but have not connected up to servo amp yet will have to give it a try
John
it was just my idea not someone elses , using 27mhz rf frequencies.
i found this ages ago you might find it interesting:
http://web.mit.edu/people/millitsa/resources/pdfs/costas.pdf
a video of another test
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwLxh6wOSP4
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HI Mike
If you was to use 27MHZ it would take up to much band width, the links that you posted was very interesting reading part of if they are using 75KHZ but on video there was a bit of time lag and if they moved quick moving hands and arms you could see time lag if they moved fast plus the picture quality did not have high definition but saying that it was still good, i think they said the range was about 1000 meters which is pretty good, will have to go back and read a bit more.
John
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HI ALL
Have been working on low frequency video link for under water, when tried unit it didn't seem to have much range at all under water have gone back to it to find out what the problem is and found out that when the antenna was in the water for some strange reason the phase locked loop which locks it on to frequency was not locking but as soon as unit was put in to 50R load to take place of antenna it would work fine, in the end had to put a separate screen around phase lock loop circuit seems to lock on to frequency OK now but need to go back down the canal and have a play a round with it and see if it works
Sub John
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getting closer john well done :-))
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HI MIKE
Thought I'd let you know how it is going with low frequency video link, tried it early hours of this morning set up antenna in the garage and transmitted in to the house signal was so Strong receiving end could not even tune off it but it proves that the phase lock loop now works OK.
Going to try hard this week to connect up your servo amp to H bridge drive circuit and see if i can get it to rock and roll
Sub John
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what frequency are you using then? or is that a secet :} how good is the picture? Why does the frequency need to lock and what does 50r load mean ? lol %%
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HI Mike
You asked what the frequency is of the low frequency video link that is TOP SECRET!!! ITS A CLOSED BOOK
Picture quality is as good as normal analog TV used to be so it is pretty good of course it is in colour
The phase lock loop which is the PLL CIRCUIT FOR SHORT this is what locks it on to frequency but also means you can change channels with out having to change crystals so can change channels just by flicking a switch
PS got my last job repaired today so will have a look at your speed controller next
John
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im not suprised its top secret john. If it works you will probably be the first bloke ever to successfully transmit live colour footage through water. There are marine research programs with millions of government funding invested in them trying to achieve the same goal!! If and when you get it on youtube MOD will be your case with a big cheque!
Id appreciate you having a go at my esc as i got some bits n bobs for it to go in :-))
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HI Mike
Low frequency video link just having a go for my own satisfaction to see if it can be done, it is still early days yet just glad i have sorted out the problem with PLL chip not locking on to frequency even if it comes down to i can only transmite 300 feet through water i would be happy with that. It makes me laugh when people say they have transmitted TV through water on 2.4GHZ through about 10FT of water at that frequency the maths don't work there is no way you would be able to do it.The RF power needed to do it would be incredable.
No problem with speed controller with a bit of luck get round to having a look tomorrow
John
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HI ALL
Went out to day to try low frequency video link under water, took it down local canal as it seemed a good idea to try it in some water that was not very clear and harder for the RF to get through had transmitting antenna under water receiving end was about 300FT apart and was receiving video picture back from transmitting end should be intersting to see on screen display when fitted in the sub sending back compass headings from under water, to receiving end on bank side which of course you can plug in to lap top and store on to hard drive video pictures
sub John
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well done john looks like youve made the first ever successful underwater wireless video transmission. whats the picture like?
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HI MIKE
Video picture i didn't get to see it the misses was watching it in the car on small LCD screen Pauline said all most as good as BBC quality transmitted TV analog, which i think is pretty good but she did say it would flicker to black and white for a split second and then back to colour. It should be interesting when all this RF tat goes in the sub am going to try and take the sub out and try it with all this new RF stuff but not in it the first time as sub has had so much new electronics put in it think it is the best thing to do to make sure that whats in there works OK before i put any more in.
Sub has not been in the water for such a long time have got visions of some thing going wrong its spent a long time sat on two straps round the hull in a cradle so just won't to be sure every thing is OK.
The paging system that is in the sub will verbally transmit back and tell you if there is any water coming in to the sub water senors in keel bottom so even if a cup full of water comes in i will know about it. Will probably just do a static dive sit it down at about 5FT and leave it there and see what happens
JOHN
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take some more footage of the testing stages john :-))
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awesome model. Yes for more video/pitures. Bill
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there is the new captin of the sub just thought id post the pics as a laf :D
(http://s17.postimage.org/wm8e6gosb/IMAG0057_1_1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/wm8e6gosb/)
(http://s7.postimage.org/uo6qi0ngn/IMAG0058.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/uo6qi0ngn/)
(http://s14.postimage.org/ibp6k44zx/IMAG0059_1_1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ibp6k44zx/)
by the way for anyone who thinks the dragon is a toy i warn you he bites lol he bit me and i had to go to hospital i woke my son after he bit me as i had blood running all down my arm lol hes not like that often just when you go near his female love struck dragon BTW hes 2ft long so you get the idea of the size of the conning tower
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looks as eager as we are to see this sub on the water. Hows it coming along?
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HI BILL
Thanks for comment on sub, hopefully will get sub on the water in the next few weeks and will do another video then. A friend of mine was asking me last night on the phone when i was going to take it out so he could give me a hand to get it in the water have had a problem with telemetry unit for sending back things like pressure in main air tanks battery voltage amps being pulled out of battery, the problem was coursed by battery's which split and acid went every where in side of the sub, the acid fumes had attacked the trimming caps in RF section and i spent four days rebuilding it but it is all OK now.
All the best Sub John
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HI MIKE
It is getting very close to taking it out now am trying my best to get it on the water all we need now is some good weather. Some body gave me a smart charger but it was made for 24volts took it to bits and reworked it so in fast charge it will give out 15volts then will drop back in to float charge which would be 13.8volts for a jel type lead acid battery just been testing it out now in the garage seems to work spot on have spent many hours sorting things out its amazing how quick time goes but it does seem worth it.
All the best Sub John
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At least you are on the home straight, all down here from now :-))
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HI MIKE
Had sub switched on in garage all day today just switched it off, all five radio links seem to be working fine you said some where on hear why don't you start a web site, my friend Phil and myself are working on quite a few electronic projects and have set up a web site to start to sell electronic bits and bobs hopefully in the next few weeks will start to advertise bits on web site
If anybody can think of a usefull electronic gadget to go in a sub would be interested to hear from you as making what people won't would be usefull to know .
Have been working on sonic link for controlling model subs under water and of course will work in salt water, think i know how to get around the problem of having different subs in the water at the same time but as i have said before it all takes time to work out.
All the best Sub John
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Something under discussion on a thread in the Sub Drivers forum was reducing the throws to control surfaces as speed is increased on fast boats, or boats with highly efficient control surfaces. A microcontroller that could reduce throw proportionally on rudder and hydroplane controls in relation to the ESC setting would be very handy. AFAIK no one has produced such a device yet.
The sonic radio you've mentioned in earlier posts would be interesting, but I can't see a huge market for that, as I think most people are satisfied with the performance of normal radio. I do think there is a market for a really good synthesized 40mhz receiver with built in failsafes on all channels that can be set for different timings e,g, a long delay of several seconds for ballast, but a shorter delay for esc etc.
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Excelent john, i reckon that once this sub is on you tube you will be inundated with requests for the radio your using. With development you will be able to design and market a appropriatly priced system for the serious modellers with more money than sense.
Regaurding a sonic link radio. I think if the option is there to be able to take your sub anywhere then people would use it, im personally put off subs by the fact that currently the only place i can use one is a rented swimming pool, yeah nice scale looking models but not an interesting or scale environment to sail them in. But thats just my oppinion.
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Model subs are very niche, and if you talk to model submariners, they rarely complain about radio range- we tend to keep close to the shore unless on the surface, otherwise you can't see what's going on, even in a swimming pool. John would probably sell half a dozen to the experimentally inclined, and that would be that.
The ability to sail in salt water without a aerial leading to the surface is one huge advantage of a sonic system, but it's worth bearing in mind that salt water really does a number on anything metallic on subs, and even if I had the ability to sail in the brine, I'd favour fresh water.
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obviously a long range underwater radio is pointless without an FPV system.
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Just to correct Mike's impression of model subs. (Though I may have misunderstood your post - maybe only swimming pools are available to you personally.)
Model subs are not just used in swimming pools. You will find that most people (myself included) use them in the usual club pond alongside other types of model ( i.e they are fine for general model boat club use.)
Swimming pools are nice but not essential. The last time I used one was when I commissioned my Holland 1 at Merstham several years ago.
(Which reminds me that if you do want a pool, the Merstham show is not far off - good for a beginning of season work-out)
So apologies Mike if I had misunderstood your post.
David
P.S Just got back from the Dortmund Model Show. Thanks to everyone for a really good show. Lots for we model submariners too! Good to see Norbert Bruggen and Sonar there and everyone was most helpful.
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obviously a long range underwater radio is pointless without an FPV system.
Not much to see underwater, and very tricky to get your bearings looking at a screen unless it's ultra clear, and you need to be moving very slowly indeed. I guess the DIY ROV chaps have more experience with this kind of thing, albeit running with an umbilical attached.
Even in the ideal conditions of a swimming pool, you'll find that submariners rarely sail their model beyond 30-40ft from the edge, and usually stay closer than that unless running on the surface or at periscope depth.
Regarding suitable waters, swimming pools or spring fed lakes are ideal but aren't always available. Personally I don't care about realistic settings, I just want to see what the boat is doing. Local boating ponds can be suitable, but not always. Unfortunately many boating lakes are either too shallow or are opaque.
If the pond is shallow this can be sidestepped by making a very small submarine. Unlike surface craft, once submerged, a small submarine will be unaffected by choppy water, so will behave much the same as a larger boat, although the lower inertia will make for a very nimble craft.
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Just to correct Mike's impression of model subs. (Though I may have misunderstood your post - maybe only swimming pools are available to you personally.)
Model subs are not just used in swimming pools. You will find that most people (myself included) use them in the usual club pond alongside other types of model ( i.e they are fine for general model boat club use.)
Swimming pools are nice but not essential. The last time I used one was when I commissioned my Holland 1 at Merstham several years ago.
(Which reminds me that if you do want a pool, the Merstham show is not far off - good for a beginning of season work-out)
So apologies Mike if I had misunderstood your post.
David
P.S Just got back from the Dortmund Model Show. Thanks to everyone for a really good show. Lots for we model submariners too! Good to see Norbert Bruggen and Sonar there and everyone was most helpful.
When i was considering submarines i thought i do some research, and from that i discovered that unless the water is clear the signal doesnt penetrate more than a few feet (supposedly) and if you want to go any deeper than a knee high the water has to be very clear so thats why the use of swimming pools. I may be wrong but if you want to send your sub 150ft out 7 ft down then thats 150.163ft of wet stuff to get through (used calculator), and if i was i to to have a go at submarines considering the amount of money put into them id expect it to be able to do that.
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Clarity is less of an issue regarding penetration of signal, although it is an issue with regards to controlling your sub- if you can't see it, you don't know what it's doing.
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which is why an fpv would be needed. but as you said previously difficult to get your bearings. Thats where computer gaming comes in handy :-))
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Have you sailed a model submarine before, Mike?
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HI Subculture
I can see there is a few more posts on hear since last time i was on, you said about designing a circuit for reduced rates for controlled surfaces according to motor speed could not see it being a problem designing it would probably be have to be linked to level control circuit for back planes as well. I read some where on mayhem about talk roll happening on a model sub what you could do to help stop that problem is have level control circuit linked so it is looking across port to starbird and would mix hydroplanes to compensate for roll, did the same thing on fast electric boat i have seem to work well but do you think there would be a big enough market for it.
Sonic link for under water yes i do know what you are saying about not being a big market for it i suppose it is always some thing to look at in the future and see if there is a market
Sub John
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HI Mike
I must admit that the design of a sonic link for under water for controlling the sub would probably be targeted at the modeller who wont's some thing that he can use say at a show and not have to worry about a peg board and who is on what channel so they can sail at what ever time they wont
Where i used to sail the sub of mine i have seen me being about 3FT down in the water and being well over 300FT away even as though you could not see it you could see a lump on the surface of the water so you could tell where it was, i have even controlled a sub under the ICE many years ago i must be mad and yes i did get it back.
Mike i have been fitting LF antenna in today its took all day what a pain in the neck. Just got to do a bit of painting on the pressure plate hatch
Sub John
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I've seen torque roll issues countered by using two levellers set diagonally and sent to separate servos for control of rear planes. This has the disadvantage of having to fork out for two levellers though.
Not sure how much of a market there would be for a torque roll compensator. Don't think there'd be much interest in the UK, most sub modellers don't stick powerful enough motors in their boats for this to become a serious issue.
What I would hate to see is someone like yourself put in time and money to a set of projects that fail to find a market. A lot of the items that most submariners need in their models are readily available already, and with significant choice e.g. levellers, ballast controllers, ESC's etc. Quite a reversal of how things were a few years ago, when a lot of stuff was difficult to source, or limited to one or two suppliers.
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Have you sailed a model submarine before, Mike?
Ive sailed toy ones and meh it was ok. what i really wanted to do was send a wireless rov type sub with live video feedback and explore the murky depths of the local lake i sail at. But if i cant get to the bottom then i dont see the point in pursuing it. When i started the possibilities thread it was just my imagination going nuts until i found out john here whos made it actually feasible. Im more into function rather than aesthetics. Id be honestly be more impressed by a model sub that can target a destoyer up periscope and look like a drain pipe than an exact replica uboot with 23500 rivets on it.
I honestly beleive that if john gets this online and as a product he will have orders from all over the world from people who want to take modelling a small leap further. The option isnt there at the minute, but once it is, then new people will start the hobby and maybe even submarines might be less of a niche. Maybe sonic transmission is the next step, i can see it definatly being of interest to marine biologists.
Its just my oppinion
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HI Mike
I must admit that the design of a sonic link for under water for controlling the sub would probably be targeted at the modeller who wont's some thing that he can use say at a show and not have to worry about a peg board and who is on what channel so they can sail at what ever time they wont
Where i used to sail the sub of mine i have seen me being about 3FT down in the water and being well over 300FT away even as though you could not see it you could see a lump on the surface of the water so you could tell where it was, i have even controlled a sub under the ICE many years ago i must be mad and yes i did get it back.
Mike i have been fitting LF antenna in today its took all day what a pain in the neck. Just got to do a bit of painting on the pressure plate hatch
Sub John
The technology could go in all kinds or directions, modeling, science, search and rescue, military.
how much pressure does the hull off your sub withstand?
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HI Subculture
Thanks for your thought's on making bits for subs was going to stop away from making things like levelers like you said there is to many making them now, not worth trying to compete, whats your thought's on making a water switch that will switch the sub on when you put it in to the water could also have reg circuit to run radio, unit would have on switch to by pass water sensors to test on bench or what ever. Stand by switch would be on and ready for sub to be put in water to work
Things that we are going to do is not just for subs working on a lot of telemetry gear to fit in planes boats of any model you can think of. Just finished designing high voltage reg will do 50V down to 5Volts of 6volts which you can select
Sub John
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HI Mike
You asked how much pressure the hull of my sub would take, well the hull is made of Kevlar woven cloth, if you fired a shoot gun at the hull at about 6ft away it would crack the jel coat but it would not go through the hull it is the same stuff that bullet proof panels are made of it is very strong i have sat the sub at about 25 FT down on the bottom.
I don't know wheather there would be a market for sonic system for controlling a model sub may be it is like Subculture said people would just stick to 40MHZ or what ever, but there is loads of other bits that can be made i think there would be a market for the telemetry stuff as quite a few people seem to be getting interested in that now we will see. But to just make things just for subs would be a big mistake as i don't think there is a big enough market, a lot of people like to keep things simple, if thats what they wont its up to them. I like to see how far i can take it but thats me i like the challenge
Sub John
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I use loggers by Eagle tree. These record data to memory like voltage, current, motor RPM, temperature. Can also record other things more valuable to flyers like GPS, altitude, airspeed.
It's a handy device as you can see very accurately how the motor is performing with a certain prop combination in a dynamic setting, as opposed to running it up in a bucket of water, which only gives a rough idea.
Eagletree also offer devices that can work transmit data, but these are no good in subs as the frequency is too high. However to be honest, I don't think I would use telemetry much, I prefer to analyse the information on a laptop, and the view the data plotted on a graph.
The water switch sounds like a good idea, haven't seen anything else quite like that on the market. What sort of price could you build it for though? I'd say it would need to be sold for about £20 if you want them to sell.
I think the bottom line with this sort of thing is, do you want to make items to sell and make money from, or do you want to develop products as an intellectual pursuit and maybe sell a few as a paying hobby?
I see a lot of people saying 'build this or that', but when it comes to fruition and it's time to cough up, they evaporate like the morning dew.
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once you get your sub on youtube doing what it does other people will want to have a go too. yeah wont be everyone, but you not the only person in the world to want to take it to next level :-))
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HI Subculture
I have got some Eagle Tree telemetry gear, and yes data loggers can be usefull but some of the telemetry gear that we are designing you can see it real time on screen if you won't all sorts of different data but you could all so data log it on to laptop to analyze it later, but to be honest a lot of this gear that we have been designing is not going to be for model subs again i don't think there will be a big enough market.
Thought about designing unit for piston tank controll which would be digital proportional I think the one that Engel sell is only proportional the last bit of the tank but i might be wrong. Have been playing about with piston control board that Dave has done the soft ware for on the AMS but myself i have never liked the idea of micro switches to switch tank off at the end of the run, have reworked the circuit so it has hall effect switches that will switch off logic for driving fets. Have thought about using in-fa red light to get feed back from prosition of piston in tank as would like to do this with know moving parts. One of the things i do like about subs is you can come up with all sorts of new ideas to build in to a model sub
Price of water switch about £24 one of the things with using a water switch the water sensors should not have DC on them as it leads to corrosion really need to see AC to stop this happening which this unit will have
Sub John
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HI Mike
Wouldn't get your hopes up to high Mike it might sink and not come back up yet if it does sink and can not get it back up i don't think any one will bring it back to the surface unless they are built like KING KONG HA HA because I'm not going in to fetch it I CAN NOT SWIM HELP !!!ANY ONE KNOW THE PHONE NUMBER FOR INTERNATIONAL RESCUE THUNDER BIRDS ARE GO AND ALL THAT.
I can remember when a friend of mine Derek got his fingers stuck in the vent at the front could not get his fingers out and i was taking him down to Davy Jones Locker at Charnwood waters HELP IM GOING DOWN WITH IT I don't think i can say what he really said i would be band off mayhem
Sub John
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pfft negative ;D
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Thought about designing unit for piston tank control which would be digital proportional I think the one that Engel sell is only proportional the last bit of the tank but i might be wrong. Have been playing about with piston control board that Dave has done the soft ware for on the AMS but myself i have never liked the idea of micro switches to switch tank off at the end of the run, have reworked the circuit so it has hall effect switches that will switch off logic for driving fets. Have thought about using in-fa red light to get feed back from position of piston in tank
water sensors should not have DC on them as it leads to corrosion really need to see AC to stop this happening
Engel do several piston tank control boards. The ones with a pot for feedback do as you say only proportionally control the last few inches of travel, but that is mechanically limited by the pot they use- you can replace that with any pot of about 5-10k range with more travel if you want control over a longer length. Engel argue that having proportional control of a piston tank that is used for main and trim duties is a waste of time. I think that's a fair point to be honest.
They also do a board with encoder feedback, and that can be set for full proportional control of the piston tank length. The disadvantage with encoder based systems is that they're not absolute like a pot. Small disadvantage though.
Interesting point about micro switches. I think people prefer these as they're considered fairly dependable. People may not trust a logic switched solution.
One idea I had for a piston tank controller, which I haven't seen tried yet, was to have a small unit that slots in between the receiver and an ESC. It would take feedback from a pot or encoder, and dependent on the receiver signal send a pulse to the ESC to go forward or reverse.
Such a unit could be made very small, it would remove the need to supply a complete board, and ESC's are very cheap these days, and/or folk often have a spare or two kicking about.
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HI Subculture
Didn't realize that Engel did so many different boards to fit there piston tanks.
Using encorder with disc do they use IN-FA red light or hall effect sensors, trouble is with using encoder on the end of shaft to get accuracy you need to have quite a few pulses to encorder to get accuracy really need to have more that one pulse per one rev of the shaft even two of three is not enough to get the controll loop to give you accuracy
You said about using ESC'S to control tank with feed back pot or encoder i did pretty much the same thing many years ago when i had a Engel Gato but unit was all so linked to leveler so what happened back piston tank would hunt to keep sub level, sub all so had leveler controlled trim tanks it all so had IN-FA red cut outs for piston ballast tanks no micro switches i hate the things give me soiled state any day. must have done this about 28 years ago sat hear and can not believe how long ago it was, this was before my son was born
Sub John
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HI Mike
Have fitted LF antenna in sub but seem to have a problem, sub seems to be picking up a lot of noise and i don't know where from but has only started since i fitted the antenna around the top of the sub even if i disconnect it is still there giving this noise on all the electronics example servo twitching depth control twitching and all sorts of daft things sat thinking about it and was wondering if it was picking up long wave radio station. But did wonder if i have set up a inductive loop around the sub what a pain trouble is there is so much electronics in this thing now where do you start.
But what bugs me is when you disconnect antenna for LF it is still there makes you feel like RIPPING IT TO BITS
SUB JOHN
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do they use IN-FA red light or hall effect sensors,
They use a hall effect sensor, they suggest a minimum of four magnets for adequate levels of trim. On an Engel tank that should give you control to within a gram or two. Tanks with smaller pistons would give even more accuracy, but to be honest I think that is sufficient. Most people are content with water pump ballast systems with bang-bang control and zero feedback.
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I was having a look at the latest proportional (by Hall effect sensor) control board from Engel while I was in Dortmund. I have to say it looks good and is sensibly priced at Euros 60. (I still don't see why they persist in using relays though.)
A colleague bought a couple of the boards and we eagerly await his experiences.
By the way, John, I am still passing on enquiries about the "modded" car tilt level controllers directly to you, if you want to do them that is, otherwise say no. (Alf is the latest person to ask)
David
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I still don't see why they persist in using relays though.
Electrical isolation perhaps? The sole solid state piston tank control board Engel supply, is the one that users have reported problems with, e.g. glitching.
Although relays are relatively old tech, they are simple, relatively inexpensive, and very reliable if correctly specced.
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Tell me, all you electronic experts...what's wrong with using two microswitches and a servo to switch piston tanks in/out? My Patrick Henry performed faultlessly all the time I had it with common or garden microswitches, 'borrowed' from a leading communication company by Vic Felton.
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Why choose Jaguar over a mini, they both get you from A to B? One offers more refinement than the other.
A servo controlling a pair of microswitches isn't really that straightforward when you think about it, it's just that the technology is well hidden behind a plastic case. Essentially, by making the piston tank proportional, you are turning it into one large servo, with beefed up power components, therefore bypassing three extra points of failure- the two microswitches and the servo itself. In real terms the proportional tank is a simpler gadget than the one controlled in bang-bang fashion.
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I'd have thought that two microswitches and a servo is about as simple as it gets when it comes to controlling a piston tank. No fancy electronics to go wrong, fail or burn out, just a couple of switches @ a pound or so each, as against many pounds worth of electronics for a proportional controller.
If a microswitch does fail...it's cheap and easy to replace, but if a proportional controller fails...it's out with the flexible friend and avoid the wife/girlfriend/boyfriend/partner for a while.
And as for the finesse in controlling the tank with a microswitch...well, do we REALLY need the capability of pumping in/out a drop of water? I bet you'd be hard pushed to notice the difference between a switch controlled tank and a Bruggen/Engel/whoever proportionally controlled tank in a sub out on the water.
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Servos are little technical masterpieces. Inside your average 'el cheapo' servo you'll usually find a microcontroller, h-bridge and feedback pot, exactly the same things you will find in a proportional piston tank controller (sometimes an encoder in place of a pot), only with a beefed up h-bridge. Having said that, for very small tanks, e.g. one based on a syringe, normal servo electronics will usually suffice,as you only need a watt or two of power.
Servos are very cheap through mass production. They used to cost a lot more years ago. Piston tank boars sell in considerably lower volume, so the price will be higher. Fault finding on such a board wouldn't be too hard. Some boards use SMD components, which can be tricky to test on and/or replace, but if your board is designed with through hole components, it's pretty straightforward provided you're comfortable with a multimeter.
Fit what you feel happy with, but proportional systems are very slick, and provided they're designed well, are reliable.
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Ah, now you've wandered again...the servo and two microswitches is for those of us who don't know one end of an H bridge from the other. I wouldn't know a SMD component from a baked apple, especially if it had a through hole, let alone know how to install or repair it.
A servo with a inch square of styrene sheet on the top and two microswitches is a different kettle of fish though...dead easy to make and install, and easy to repair/replace.
Those famous four letters spring to mind.... K.I.S.S.
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Well the point I was trying to make was that a servo isn't a simple device.
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No, absolutely true...my point though, was that from your average Joe's point of view, a servo and two microswitches is an awful lot easier to make up, install and set up than a fully proportional, all singing, all dancing, electronic controller. And a lot cheaper too...
I've used both types, and some inbetween as well, but a good old servo with a couple of microswitches takes some beating for controlling an average ballast tank.
Micro piston tanks in small boats (such as Nigel Edmonds' little Turtle) are another matter, a proportional controller is a necessary asset...but in something the size and weight of the Patrick Henry, you don't really need such a delicate touch.
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HI ALL
A lot of what Subculture has put is fair comment and a logical out look, he seems to be seeing it for what it is if you are using a servo to control two micro switches yet you are using electronics to make that work a servo then why not take it a step further and go solid state electronics no moving parts. If you went in to proportional control of piston tank you can start to make control loops to make a model sub hover in the water but i suppose it is how far you won't to take it.
I have seen a lot of model subs that are basic electronics inside but are not reliable, if a model sub uses micro switches on a servo if the sub goes out of radio link the receiver inside of sub can make servos go to end stop and i have seen this rip micro switches out you don't get this problem with electronics but this is just my own view. I know you can fit radio fail safes to what ever channel you won't to try and stop this problem but i would sooner stick with solid state electronics. The smaller Engel sub that i had was solid state electronics and no micro switches and that worked great for many years before i got rid of it and it was very reliable i never touched it just charged it and took it out
Sub John
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One idea I had for a piston tank controller, which I haven't seen tried yet, was to have a small unit that slots in between the receiver and an ESC. It would take feedback from a pot or encoder, and dependent on the receiver signal send a pulse to the ESC to go forward or reverse.
Such a unit could be made very small, it would remove the need to supply a complete board, and ESC's are very cheap these days, and/or folk often have a spare or two kicking about.
and/or folk could use a BRUSHLESS controller if their slightly odd nature allowed/forced them to do so. :)
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I would be cautious using brushless motors/controllers on a piston tank unless they were sensored, owing to the start up characteristics being somewhat different to brushed counterparts.
Your average servo tends to be capable of 4-5 watts output, this is enough power to drive smaller tanks (up to 50mm piston diameter). If we are prepared to remove the pot from the casing and attach it externally to the piston via a lever, and if required modify the output gear for continuous rotation, you have the makings of a very inexpensive proportional dive system.
The snag lies in the servos speed, on average servos tend to wind at about 50RPM. If this is connected directly to a threaded spindle, in the way most piston tanks are actuated, the time taken to move the piston will be extremely slow unless the stroke is very short. This can be cut down by gearing-up the output of the servo, say 2:1.
You can use a rack and pinion, which gives us the opposite problem- now the piston moves too fast. The ideal for rack and pinion is an output of about 10-15RPM, so our servo needs further reduction of 4 or 5:1 in order to generate sufficient torque.
A third option is to ditch the servo mechanics, and just use the amplifier board and feedback pot, and hook it up to a third party motor and gearbox. Robotics suppliers like Pololu sell miniature geared motors at competitive prices, which being sized about the same as most sero motors and with a 3-6v voltage range are ideally suited to the task. I expect most modellers have a servo or two in the scrap box with a stripped gear train or a burnt out motor, but perfectly serviceable electronics.
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Hi All!
I was hoping to ask Sub John a couple of questions?
1. How he made out with his compass?
2. Does he have a depth gauge?
3. Most important does he have a speed sensor?
Thanks, Ed
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HI ED
Reply to question 1, Compass works as far as i have took it at the moment compass headings will be over lay on video picture coming back from the sub got to finish auto pilot part, will all so be linked to GPS unit so you can set way points
Reply to 2, Again depth will be shown on video picture coming back from sub.
Reply 3, Same thing speed will be over lay on video picture .
Thanks for interest in sub what you will be able to do when receiving GPS signal you will be able to see on laptop sub on route where it is, if you programmed in to GPS unit way points it will travel a preset course unless it hits some thing in the water
Sub John
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Hi John!
Good to hear from you! If you need support with your On Screen Display please feel free to ask. I work for 20th Century Fox Television and am very familiar with OSD's. As for a compass, I developed one years ago and the accuracy is said to be 1/10 of 1 degree. You can find it at http://www.robsonco.com/Dinsmore/Untitled_5.html. Just finished a depth sensor good to 1/2" (1.2 cm) link would be: http://www.picbasic.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=16457. My interest right now is a speed sensor and there are so many variations I thought maybe you would not mind sharing what you are using? Of course you have a lot more room than my 1:96 scale Typhoon and still it would be interesting which approach you are using. I thought about GPS however, GPS does not work underwater. Thanks, Ed
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HI ED
Thanks for offer of help with OSD, do you know of any OSD unit that you can display 4 separate screens on one screen as it would be useful , all so if you know of OSD unit that can display say text warning on the screen it would be helpfull
Had a look at websites you posted looks interesting ran out of time last night but will have another look later on.
OSD unit that i am using at the minute will display speed in MPH or KM logic in put on pic is there for it to work but haven't made sensor yet have got a few ideas on making sensor just been to busy with so many other bits haven't got around to it yet .
Yes you are right GPS units will not work under water, when they design these GPS units they chose a frequency even as though it was high frequency these two bands that they use are less sensitive to cloud mass than other frequency's to use as down link's
Sub John
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Hi John!
If you wish please feel free to e-mail me directly at edcannady@earthlink.net if you wish to share your speed sensor ideas. I have done some research and looked at several different methods. As for 4 screens on 1, the device you are asking about is called a "quad split" and typically found on sites that sell security equipment such as "Super Circuits". While you are on the Super Circuits site, check out the "Snake Camera"! There are 2 versions, one of which is high resolution and the best part is that the are only 1/2" (1.2 cm) square! I use one for my video periscope which uses lenses that are only 3 mm in diameter. Best, Ed
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HI ED
Thanks for info to link for cameras some interesting bits on there was not sure wheather cameras are PAL or NTSC FORMAT for video out sounds interesting camera that you have fitted in to periscope, going back to splitting one video picture in to 4 screens was looking for some thing small, i have got one but it is to big to go inside of sub, have sent you EMAIL
All the best Sub John
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Hi John, I believe they are mostly NTSC (Never Twice the Same Color). I will be looking for your e-mail rather than taking up everyones time here. It is possible to reduce the size of the quad split unit you have. A picture of the inside would be the most help. Best, Ed
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HI ED
Sent you 2 emails not sure if i have got some thing wrong with my hot mail since Micro soft latest up grades. Have you got some pictures of camera in periscope would be interested to see it, have you got another email address i can try. Have not took the cover off quad split unit to see if i can get it a lot smaller used to use it a lot on radio ham bands mainly on fast scan TV 23CMS
Sub John
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Hi John!
Been looking for an e-mail from you and nothing yet {:-{ If you wish you can send me a message on this site with your e-mail and I will send you an e-mail you can just reply to. Basically what I did was take the "snake camera" and point it up a tube so as not to have to use a second mirror so the tube can be turned almost 180 degrees. If I had had to use a second mirror the base would have been very big and almost impossible to turn. Since the camera is looking at onle one mirror you have to flip the picture otherwise everything would be reversed, a mirror image. To flip the picture you use a "dove prism" which flips things left to right and not up and down (unless you install it incorrectly) ok2 . To columnize the light down the tube a lens type known as an "acromat lens" is used. The 45 degree mirror at the top of the tube is called a "first surface" mirror as the silver coating is on the outside of the glass and not behind it. Best, Ed
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HI ED
I have not been around for a few days have had a problem with broad band but seems to be OK now, had sent you two emails but you must not have received them for some reason but it has all so happened to two other emails as well to other people. Looked in to putting camera in to periscope many years ago but cameras 20 years ago where quite big, i brought a CCD camera black and white to fit in the sub and it cost me about £485.00 which was a lot of money at the time, have not long changed the camera to a colour unit and that was only £18.00 and the picture is very good and of course is a lot smaller which makes it a lot easier to fit in a periscope. Sounds interesting about dove prism which flips things from left to right not up and down, have not seen any thing like that before. What sort of size is it i suppose it must be small to get it in to periscope
Have been messing about trying to find out where this twitching is coming from in side of this sub of mine have spent around 2 weeks believe it or not as soon as i took the sub on to the front of the house it stopped so it is picking some thing from inside the garage. There is a unit inside the garage that pumps up my mast for my radio ham antennas in side of it there is a switch mode power supply and it was picking up noise from that as well what a pain
All the best Sub John PS have sent you a personal message
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HI ED
I have sent you two more emails but for some reason they just don't seem to be getting through but they don't bounce back from the post master don't know what is going off with it can not find a problem with my hotmail.
I said in one of the posts on hear i was having problems with twitching on radio control side of the sub decided to build a new decoder for the radio control side of the sub changed quite a few other bits as well but no matter what i did problem was still there even modded new CB radio to go in side all so fitted crystal filters guess what it was still there it was all so coming through on LF radio link , have checked radio control transmitter for sub that was working fine so decided to build another decoder in to the other CB that had been took out of the sub idea being could plug servos into it and take the hole lot over to a air field where i go flying my planes on. Took it all over there to try and guess what it works fine so it is some thing around where i live that is coursing the problem but what i don't know yet, but if i put all the stuff that i tested to night down the field that works fine in the garage on top of the sub that does the same thing TWITCHING in the back ground but all controlls work fine what a pain in the neck. I new i should have took the jigsaw cutter to the thing and put it down the tip LOL it's enough to make you won't to spit feathers
All the best Sub John
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found this picture of the sub from 1993 was taken down charnwood waters in loughborough just thought id post it up
(http://s10.postimage.org/g1cy0goud/IMAG0037.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/g1cy0goud/)
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whats happenin john have you figured out the glitching?
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HI Mike
Took all the radio gear over to air field to where i go flying to see if there was any glitching and it all worked fine so what ever is happening it has to be in the garage coming off mains cables, trouble is to day there is so much digital data and so on being sent down mains cables if you are connected to the sub station you could be picking some thing up from two streets away. I was talking to one of the engineers from virgin and could not believe what frequency's they are using sending down coax cables all sorts of different frequency's we have one of the distribution boxes just a couple of houses up the road it could be coming from that, but as far as testing radio gear for sub lets put it like this Pauline was sat in the car with antenna on the car roof with all transmitting gear inside and i walk away 1/4 of a mile away sat under a tree with receiving antenna which was a piece of wire just laid on the floor and signal on receiver was end stopped so i would say that worked OK i don't think you could get much better than that.
Have got low frequency antenna in sub now but have fitted it under the deck, antenna is just over 30FT long which has to be that length to work under water hopefully
John
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HI ALL
Just a up grade with progress on sub my son and I have been busy doing the trailer for the sub to go in to even the job on the trailer has been a pain in the neck all that is left to do is put the new number plate on the trailer and then will be ready to take the sub out for trials, so lets hope the weather picks up. As the lake where i won't to take it is all flooded and all so suffering from weeds but it will take some pretty strong weeds to stop this
John
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sounds promising have you got the live footage link working and the onscreen telemetry?
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hi mike
i have got most of the on screen display to work but i haven't put it in the sub yet as i wont to try the boat before i put eney more electronic bits in. but have a look at these pictures of some other telemetry units that i have been working on with my friend Phil who has done the software for it. this telemetry units has two way radio link unit will fit in model plane or boat etc all parameters can be changed in flight from the ground from the screen change voltage warnings and temps of diffrent parts of the model unit is designed for lipo cells
john
(http://s18.postimage.org/tp8jr475h/cid_image003_jpg_01_CB9615.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/tp8jr475h/)
(http://s8.postimage.org/i35svivox/cid_image004_jpg_01_CB9615.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/i35svivox/)
(http://s7.postimage.org/56r6hstif/cid_image005_jpg_01_CB9615.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/56r6hstif/)
(http://s10.postimage.org/qikpo9fz9/cid_image006_jpg_01_CB9615.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/qikpo9fz9/)
(http://s9.postimage.org/3v7uhq1zv/cid_image007_jpg_01_CB9615.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/3v7uhq1zv/)
(http://s18.postimage.org/tdvos3g39/cid_image008_jpg_01_CB9615.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/tdvos3g39/)
(http://s17.postimage.org/mgrv4p0xn/cid_image009_jpg_01_CB9615.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/mgrv4p0xn/)
(http://s13.postimage.org/afjg79xqb/cid_image010_jpg_01_CB9615.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/afjg79xqb/)
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HI Guys
With a bit of luck i will be taking the sub out tomorrow to do some sea trials first time in about 20 years, will need to do some final trimming of the sub when submerged hope fully it will not take to long to get the job done. Not been able to go out before this year because of weeds every where over the lake.
Lets just hope it turns out to be a nice day so i can do some videoing of the sub in the water will post up on you tube
All the best John
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I can't wait to see this! May the winds be at your back!
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HI Salmon
Took sub out to try and what a day it turned out to be the sub was in and out the water about 4 time, when the sub was put in the water the first time it sat on its decks on the water surface it was to heavy can not under stand how it has worked out to be to heavy i had a look on yuasa UK website to find out the weight of the old battery's compared to the new ones it worked out i needed just under 3LB at the front and just over 4LB in the back what should have brought it up to the old weight of the sub with old battery's fitted. I ended up having to take 17 LB of lead out of the front and back of the sub but it was still sitting low at the back of the sub as i could not do any more at the lake we had to come home to get more weight out. Have taken out about 22 LBS of lead now can not under stand it unless some of the weights of the battery's are wrong on yuasa web site, the sub was sat on the bottom of the lake and there is no leaks thank goodness it must have been sat on the bottom for about 5 Minutes all the electronics works fine which i must say was good news because i have had to take the battery's out of the sub i have now decided to change the rudder servo as the one in it was to slow it was made from a electric window motor from a car and turned in to a servo the new one is much faster and will make the sub a lot more controlable but to change this i have had to take the motors out to be able to get in and rework.
But before i can take it out again i have got to buy two new tyres for the trailer as they are splitting, but won't to take it out before the weather gets to cold hopefully when i take it out next time i will get video of it as last time there was to much going on to start filming as i did not think it was worth it till the sub looks right in the water sitting at the right level.
I did take the sub for a spin around the lake and it looked good as it has been about 18 years since it last took to water biggest problem taking this out you need to many people to help and getting them together at the right time is hard. I would like to thank Stuart Dave and Mick for there help could not have done it with out them
ALL THE BEST John
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just a few teething problems. ohwell till next time john :-))
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HI Mike
Just finished hacking the back of the sub out to take the new rudder servo made new mounting plates just waiting for bits to be machined up then the hole of the back end of the sub can be put back together. Finished doing the wiring for it last night and fitted the new regulator board for rudder servo so fingers crossed all goes well on next outting should be a lot closer being trimmed up now
Went on yuasa web site looking up the weight of the old battery's and the new one's still ended up the same i should of ended up having to put more lead in for ballast not take it out.
All the best John
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Hi John,
Very good that she has made it back into the water.
Congratulations!
David
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Excellent. hope you have some spare time as a "new father"to build the U boat. bill
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HI DAVY 1
Yes it was good to get it back on the water, have just been checking to see if the new colour camera that i fitted in the sub for the video link still worked and glad to say there was no water in the camera unit after being sat on the bottom of the lake for 5 mins, all so checked folding hydroplanes unit to see if there was any water in that unit and that was bone dry as well hopefully next time i take the sub out it will be a lot closer to being trimmed up and can get a video of her in action.
I have all ways found it easier to put lead in the keel for ballast than to take it out when it is fixed under battery's this time will be able to put lead in free flood area's if need be
All the best John
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HI GUYS
Just an up date have got all the rudder linkages and servo back in the sub the rudder takes about 1 second to go from full left to full right as this will make life a lot easier when i put the auto pilot in and GPS link. I would like to thank Jim for machining up the new bits and bobs the sub is all back together and ready to go and try again weather permitting. Have just ordered new tyres for the trailer so that job will be done hopefully just got to do the final trimming of the sub as it can not be far away now from being trimmed and then next year might be able to go to some model shows
All the best John
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been trying to post picture but im having problems posting them up
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Yes I've had problems with the picture posting on this forum in recent times too. I use a free photobucket account, which I've had for a few years now, and that works well.
Flickr, Picasa and Smugmug are good alternatives if you don't like the feel of Photobucket.
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HI Subculture
Thanks for coming back with some of the alternatives for posting up pictures on mayhem, tried for about 1.5 hours today in the end got that fed up with it not working no matter what i did i just gave up.
Some thing that i can ask you is what shows do you think i would be able to take this sub of mine to thought about taking it to Norwich but don't know wheather i would get it in the pool would need possably a fork lift truck, to pick it up and lower it in to the water from what i can remember many years ago when i was there i think there was a wall that you had to lean over to put the subs or boats in the pool, don't know how we would get this sub of mine in as i could see some thing getting broke.
All the best John
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The pond at Norwich is built up from ground level. So the bottom of the pond is essentially where your feet are, and a three foot high wall goes all the way around to contain the water. I've seen large models sailing there, but not as big as yours.
Other shows. Well the pool runs operate in 165ftx80ft at Brockwell and 100ftx60ft at St Albans, and depth varies between three to 9 feet. I think your boat would struggle in the smaller pool at St Albans to be honest, and I think you would find it impossible to get it through the building. Brockwell would be doable, as access is a little easier, but as you say, launch and recovery could be interesting.
There is the show at Alfold, fairly big lake, but the water looks completely opaque in pictures I've seen of it, so periscope running only I would think.
The lake at Barrow looks fairly well sized, quite a long way to travel though.
Maybe a good idea to build a smaller boat?
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How about mayhem weekend at wicksteed...
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noo dont need a smaller boat just some thinking. You need to build some kind of launch ganty on the trailer john. i was thinking along the lines of something similar to how lifeboats are launched on a davit:
http://www.ship-technology.com/contractors/survival/nmals/nmals4.html (http://www.ship-technology.com/contractors/survival/nmals/nmals4.html)
I think though that overhanging weight may tip the trailor over sideways, it would need some kind of counterbalance as support legs would not allow the boat to either lower or even get near the water edge.
You could also make an engine gantry hoist which could fold up for transport. If one set of legs was in the water and the other other on the ground with the trailer and water edge between them.
Just ideas
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I think Wicksteed is too shallow for submerged running.
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I'll go with Andy...build a smaller boat, John.
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I think Wicksteed is too shallow for submerged running.
probably for submerged running but a good chance to meet forum members, and show off the sub where it can be seen.... on the surface!
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tryed again to upload picturs from photobucket and all i get is a box with a red x in it just about to give up now
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Something has gone wrong there, you only have the image tags.
160watts!! I take it you have a healthy battery. Do you really need that much poke? Our commercial R/C sets are under 1 watt after all.
Did you do anything further with the sonic system you were tinkering with, i thought that was a system that held the most promise for DIY construction, as it's not strictly RF, so you don't have to worry about licenses etc.
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Okay, here's how you use photobucket. Log-in to your account on photobucket. Go to the library where your pictures are stored.
Move the mouse cursor over the image you want to post on the forum, and you should see a small symbol in the right hand corner of the image that looks like a cog or gear wheel.
Move your mouse over that, and a small menu drops down, one of the options says- 'get media links'. Highlight that with the cursor and left click with the mouse, a window will open up, with a link for the media , left click on that, and it should go yellow in colour and say 'copied'. The link is now copied to your clipbaord, and you can paste it into the window on MAyhem or any other forum.
Sounds tricky, but take seconds once you do it, very intuitive.
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E.g.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/subculture84/lay-up.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/subculture84/castings.jpg)
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HI Subculture
Fine on the pond at Norwich i can see me having problems trying to get it in there for sure, it looks like i will be struggling to sail the sub at many shows which is a shame. Just been down stairs in the garage to measure up how much water i need to be able to float the sub off it's under carriage i need about 32inc of water then it will just float off the strips that it sits on. You said about build a smaller sub trouble is you can not get much stuff in that was the idea when i built the big sub of mine.
Thanks for the instructions on how to use photo bucket i will give it another try later on and see if i can pull my hair out. You asked about 160 watt RF power amp you must have seen me post up info on it but know pictures yes that is a lot of power but it is on LF under water, unit has been made from scrap bits and bobs your normal TX transmitter on say 40MHZ knocks out about 100 MW ERP which is not a great deal of RF really.
You asked about sonic link had i done any more with it sorry to say i have been to busy with other bits, helicopters and planes and other electronics there does not seem to be enough hours in the day some times thanks for your help
John
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HI Bikerdude
I did think about Wickstead when mayhem is there if i could get it in the water and just sail it on the surface would be nice but like you pointed out it would be good to just take it and show it to people plus like you said again people from mayhem would get to see it and i would get to meet some of the guys off the forum. How deep is the water is there a slip way there sorry to say i have not seen it so i don't know, but like i have said i would like to take it to some shows this year, still got to do final trimming on the sub once it is on the water trouble is it's to cold now to have your hands in cold water messing about in lakes.
Thanks for your interest John
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HI Richard
I'M sorry but I'm not in to SMALL THINGS the bigger the better is my motto
John
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HI MIKE
Nice to hear from you, have seen some of your post messing around with steam engines i think it's great that you are having a go i must say i do appreciate some of the engineering that these guys do, a lot of time and effort goes in to building some of these engines, but now on to the sub. Have spent so much time refitting this thing of mine to not use it now would be a great shame, but sorry to say will have to wait till the spring now to get it back in the water. But saying that if we get much more rain i think i will soon be able to sail it out of the garage.
Fine on what you said about making launching method trouble is trailer is custom made for the sub to fit in now and would be to hard to change it but I'm not saying it could not be changed. My mates that helped me take it out last time to try and trim up can not wait to get it out on the water again and with out there help i would not have been able to have took it out and tried it again, as i have to be carefull about picking up heavy weights or i could end up back in hospital if not carefull
All the best John
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At this moment in time, I believe it's about 5 feet deep! But normally it's about waist height I think, can't say I've ever got in to find out, but I'm sure the photos I've seen of people in there, it come up to about the waist. There's dimensions of the lake on our site but I can't remember what they are at the moment, I'll look when I get home.
No slipway though, so you'd need some sort of mobile launching ramp, (I'm sure someone on here built 1?) or engine hoist type of thing. But even without going in the lake I'm sure many would love to see it close up, and see all your hard work on gadgetry!
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HI Bikerdudd
Thanks for reply you said it is about 3ft deep normally and could be at the moment 5ft deep if it was 3ft deep would probably be able go around at periscope depth, if could not do that then could just sit on the bottom of the lake. You said that there was not a slip way is it possible to pick the sub up on straps and use fork lift truck to pick it up and put it in the lake if we could not do that then it could all ways be used as a static display model like you said. Will try my best to bring it to mayhem at Wicksteed park, have got new tyres on the trailer so that's all done so won't be a problem transporting it around now. Was lucky last time i took it out to trim the sub up as Pauline the other half when we pulled up out side the house she could see a split between the tread on the tyre i think we where lucky nothing went wrong if trailer had rolled over would have been a right mess.
All the best John
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i have been working on a 160 WATT RF amplifier for the last few days the first picture is of the digital driver unit that can deliver 10 - 20 WATTS of RF unit will be switched to 10 WATTS to drive the 160 WATT RF power amp
(http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u524/johnrobinson1/IMAG0316.jpg)
this is one side view of the driver unit
(http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u524/johnrobinson1/IMAG0317.jpg)
this is the other side of the driver unit
(http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u524/johnrobinson1/IMAG0318.jpg)
this is looking inside the 160 WATT power amplifier the unit has still got to have a band pass filter built into it and a few other bits as well . i ran the unit up for three hours into a dummy load knocking out 160 WATTS the dummy load takes the place of the antenna when being tested on the bench this unit will plug into an antenna what will be placed in the water transmitting to the submarine on low freqency trying to get everything done to take the boat out for when the weather picks up
(http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u524/johnrobinson1/IMAG0312.jpg)
here is one side view
(http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u524/johnrobinson1/IMAG0313.jpg)
this is the other side
(http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u524/johnrobinson1/IMAG0309.jpg)
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John pushing out that amount of Wattage 160 watts are you not going to interfere with other radio in the surrounding area I only ask because in my early CB days (AM) I knew a guy who had a 100 watt Burner {amp} that when switched on and the mike keyed up it took out the police radios in Chester and the local hospital suffered from the interference as well granted he lived between the hospital and police station, I am wondering what the difference is between what you are doing and what he did all them years ago?
Regards Mark
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Depends on the frequency and bandwidth you're working at.
Suffice it to say, you shouldn't be messing about with RF unless you know exactly what you're doing, especially as the power goes up.
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Andy I don't think anyone knew what they were doing really when it cam to CB radio and burners they were always to expensive to buy was happy with the dx`ing at the power I had with the super cobra and multi mode that I had just thought I would ask about interference with other band.
Mark
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HI Grimreaper
You asked about interference to other bands the driver unit that i have done has got a band pass filter on the out put which is to stop interference to other bands, when that unit plugs in to the RF power amp which is giving 160 watts this unit has all so got band pass filter to antenna to make sure the RF signal going out is clean from coursing interference to other bands including my self as i use 5 other frequency's sending out all sorts of digital data.
You said about your friend knocking out a police station and i think it was all so a hospital to be honest i used to be a rig doctor that's what they called it on the CB radio that's more years back than i care to remember, a lot of these CB radios filtering is a bit of a joke on the RF out put and when you start talking about burners or RF amps to get more power most of these do not have any band pass filtering at all it's just raw RF coming out so you are going to course interference all over the band. The design of these units was rubbish in most of the units you only get what you pay for when it comes to making RF amps, i have got a 150 watt linear amp that i designed on 1.2 GHZ that's quite high in frequency and that does start to get dangerous if you don't no what you are doing. I used to use it on 23Cm's fast scan TV that would plug in to a antenna that had got 18DB of gain and that is a serious RF power like Andy has said if you don't know what you are doing with high power RF leave it alone. With me having a full radio ham licence it means you can experiment with different bands with out getting in to trouble sorry to say a lot of radio hams now seem to buy a black box to get on to the bands and do not seem to make any thing any more which is quite sad but I'm not saying there is not any body making stuff any more for me that is one of the reasons why i became a radio ham to be able to go on different bands and make my own radio equipment and plus with me working in RF micro wave electronics for quite a few years you do tend to learn quite a bit about RF
John
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HI Subculture
What you have said Andy is spot on RF is not to be messed with not when it comes to micro wave frequency's, at different frequency's it will course hot spots in your body according to what frequency you are using and of course what power level. It really can be quite dangerous.BUT Before i for get won't to get back on to sonic link for controlling a sub under water when i get a few more jobs out of the way i will try and get back on it
John
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HI ALL
I have spent the last few months working on all sorts of electronic projects, as it has been to cold to go out playing with subs in cold water. One of the things i have been playing around with is being able to record sound on to SD memory card the sort of things they use for digital cameras and so on, the problem is with a lot of the SD sound card recorders that you can buy you would normally have to down load a MP3 file which some times you would have to pay for which i do not like that idea of very much as you can end up limited as to what you can put on the memory card to use for playing the sounds back. But the one i have been playing around with has got a pic which has got soft ware on it which will allow you to be able to say plug a mic in to it and record what ever you won't plus it has got a line input which means you can record from what ever you won't. When i first played around with storing sound effects for that big sub of mine every thing was recorded on to eprom because of the development of things like SD cards things can be made a lot smaller than you could a few years ago. The beauty about being able to use a mic input on the sound unit for instance you could stand behind just say a Merlin engine off a spit fire and record it then that would be the sound you would get back. I have got it all working and just need to refine it just a bit more
Sub John
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hi guys
i finally managed to get the old video of the sub uploaded to youtube the quality isn't the best but is watchable big thanks to my son for converting it from VHS to mp4 here is three links in order to youtube to see the sub in action 20 years ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcbXoonzgNQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcbXoonzgNQ)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8uAjFINX5w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8uAjFINX5w)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umwxx9mw8G8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umwxx9mw8G8)
i will hopefully be taking the submarine out later this year and i will be able to get some decent footage of the sub
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very good. So in a summary, what differences will the new mods make to submarine compared to the ones in the video?
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Very interesting videos, looks good on the water. Would be great to see it crossing the channel!
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HI Mad Mike
You asked what difference the new modes will make to the sub, first thing that springs to mind is where as it used to take 30 seconds to go from full left to full right rudder it will now do it in about 1.5 seconds. Next thing the sub has now got soft ware controlled tank steering and deferential throttle control as well sub has now got low frequency radio link which will work a lot better in salt water, than standard radio control on say 40MHz. Electronically is a lot more stable than it was before because of many changes to the circuits in side of the sub, plus there is a lot more other modes but i will leave it at that for now.
All the best John
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HI Bikerdudd
Glad you found the videos interesting looking forward on getting it back on the water, it would be nice to have a go at crossing the channel with it but weather i will i do not know.
Thanks for reply John
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will it go deeper than whats on the video and will it have live video feedback? I suppose you intend on trying it in the sea if you have improved its salt water reception.
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HI MIKE
Yes the sub will go a lot deeper than what it was on the video, i have sat it on the bottom on one part of charnwood waters and it was 25ft down. A friend of mine that was a diver said how deep it was where the sub was sat on the bottom, yes it will have live video coming back from the sub like you said need to test low frequency radio link to the sub in salt water.
John
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Just watched the video on youtube, that is one impressive sub.
I am sure you must have had some serious headaches during the build & sea trials.
:-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-))
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HI Bubblehead
Glad you found the sub impressive, thanks for the interest in videos you said i bet you had a few headaches in the build you could not be more right not only headaches but a few days in hospital with the smell of the super glue doing the deck in all them strips of wood, i used a lot of super glue. The fumes that come off super glue can be quite nasty as i found out
Thanks again John
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been working on a new digital piston tank controller to use for trim tanks in this big sub of mine hope you find this interesting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vs5qmhVgTgw&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vs5qmhVgTgw&feature=youtu.be)
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The facility to alter the position of the tank in bang-bang mode before the pot feedback is valuable, as it's sometimes handy to trim when on the surface to help give props and/or control surfaces a little more bite.
You mention an inverter which suggests to me that you are using a full N-channel Mosfet bridge, requiring boost for the high side switching. Are you using a PIC or Atmel microcontroller for the 'brains' or something else?
Last but not least, are you going to market these devices, or distribute the information on how to grow your own?
If going the latter route, could I suggest a layout for PCB and variboard. The latter is bigger, but space is usually available for a slightly larger board, especially on medium size or larger boats, and I think more people are inclined to have a go if they don't have to break out the ferric chloride and etch boards.
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A third option would be to allow the use of a commercial H-bridge board, leaving just the logic level components to assemble. Pololu supply a range of nice H-bridge boards for robotics etc. They're not exactly cut price, but are affordable. http://www.pololu.com/catalog/category/82
This would remove the possibility of errors on a power stage where things can get lively, not to mention the ease with which Mosfets can be dispatched by static from pinkies.
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HI Subculture
Hopefully will be going into production of this unit, have been working on other things as well to market so sorry to say that the diagrams and software will be on the top secret list and will not be given away. But you can buy one if you would like, the unit will be made SMD components so will come out small in size, i have tested this out on a electric window drive motor out of a car to see how it stood up to high current and the fets never even got hot but it comes down to how you control the switching of the fets. Inverter section is to do with the fets but all so plays another roll as well but i must say it does seem to work well i have tried to blow the test unit up and not managed to do so it is a lot better than using relays and micro switches. You will all so be-able to use hall effect sensors instead of micro switches for end stops if that is the way some one would like to go, looking in to a way of doing a way with feed back pot altogether but that is some thing else to look at in the future
Thanks for the interest John
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I see. Did you code any sort of PID algorithm for motor control, or does the board simply switch the motor at 100% until it hits the desired position.
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HI ALL
After finally getting the tow bar fitted on the car again, we took the sub out yesterday and got it trimmed up which did not take as long as i thought it would. Sat it a few times on the bottom of the lake to see if there was any leaks and there was not every thing worked fine, but the bad news is i was going around with the water half way up the conning tower and some bright spark ran over the deck with there steam boat, smashed the railings off both sides broke the sonar off made a make across the deck leading to weeks of repairs.I can not see me being able to take it out again this year unless weather stays good for a few more weeks, i can see I'm going to have to think about fitting live torpedoes to it and then see who dares sail over my decks again HA HA.
Met up with one of the guys off mayhem called Gazza at Leicester model boat show yesterday seemed very interested in the sub and would like to say many thanks to him for his help yesterday and would also like to say thanks to Tony and Graham for getting the sub in to the water as i would not have been able to have done it with out there help, also thanks to any one else that should interest it was nice to meet a nice bunch of people
John
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12 foot long and they still couldnt see it.... ???? :o
Hope they werent driving home . :o
:o
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HI Sub driver
It does seem hard to believe that some one can not see a 12ft sub in the water about 4ft away, and still ends up running over the deck. Spent most of yesterday running around trying to get all the bits to repair all the damage, but when you have to make every rail post from scratch it takes a lot of time. I am still very p----d off about it now
Have got some bits of video of trying the sub will try to get it posted up today if i get time only trouble is Pauline video this you might have been better off using a blind camera man she will give me a slap for this but never mind.
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video bits of the testing of the sub on sunday
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWoahGnM9fY&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWoahGnM9fY&feature=youtu.be)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_1U5w_NI6c&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_1U5w_NI6c&feature=youtu.be)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBn2WA631bs&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBn2WA631bs&feature=youtu.be)
hope you all enjoy the watch thanks
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have you received it the torpedo?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_1U5w_NI6c&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_1U5w_NI6c&feature=youtu.be)
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One torpedo and both legs..amazing accuracy. %). Hehe.
Looked good john...very brave, too many fast boats there for me, disaster waiting to happen, saw 1 nearly got you on the vid.
Hope the repaires dont take too long....been there done that im afraid to say.
Regards sub.
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Exactly what i was thinking, all those fast deep-vees charging about the lake- not a good mix!
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HI Sub driver
Yes i must admit i did notice that one of the other boats was not far off hitting the sub. I will not be putting it back on the water unless there is no model boats racing around the lake must admit it is a recipe for things going wrong. Ended up all day yesterday making a new sonar that got broke off, i must admit i thought it looked good on the water but the basic idea was just to get it trimmed up was hoping to take it to Norwich this week end but it will not be going as repairs have to be done first, i can not believe how long it takes just to make the bits.
But i hope to be taking it to shows next year
JOHN
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hi all thought id post pictures up of the damage to my boat <*<
(http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u524/johnrobinson1/IMAG0114_zps76bd7ff4.jpg)
(http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u524/johnrobinson1/IMAG0117_zps87f418a7.jpg)
here is the pic of the new sonar as this part floated off and couldn't be found
(http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u524/johnrobinson1/IMAG0116_zpsc8a636c4.jpg)
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John....a little of thread :o ...I am sorry to hear that it was a steam vessel that caused the damage....following this, I too would be reluctant repeat a mixed vessel launching in the same area
a. is the decking real wooden planked?
b. if so, what sort of glue? & what type of sealer?
...polyurethane & polyurethane?.....that is certainly some sized vessel...... :-)) ...Derek
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HI Derekwarner-decoy
Yes the deck is real wooden strips, and was bonded down with very thin super glue lots of it. Under the planks of wood there is hundreds of holes to let the air out when the sub dives.
The varnish that i used was made by Ronseal outdoor varnish clear waterproof protection must admit the first time i used it the deck came out really shinny whet back to the shop having a go about it because it said on the tin that it was clear satin, had to sand all the deck down again and then what i did was to put about 30% white Sprite mixed into the varnish end result is what you see now.
Thanks for the interest Derek All the best Sub John
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does exactly what it says on the tin {-)
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thought id post some new pictures of the sub of the water thanks to rob for taking the pictures and sending me some coppies of them to post on hear
here is the web link so u can see this mans work if you would like pictures doing etc http://paap.foliopic.com/ (http://paap.foliopic.com/) thanks rob
(http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u524/johnrobinson1/_DSC0680-Edit_zps92ca1a0b.jpg)
(http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u524/johnrobinson1/_DSC0661-Edit-3_zps28210245.jpg)
(http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u524/johnrobinson1/_DSC8000-Edit-3_zps7ee29e8d.jpg)
(http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u524/johnrobinson1/_DSC7985-Edit-3_zps740c8bdc.jpg)
(http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u524/johnrobinson1/_DSC7979-Edit-2_zpsd629818e.jpg)
(http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u524/johnrobinson1/_DSC7967-Edit-Edit_zps2b55169e.jpg)
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:-)) ...yes....black & white images can add reality congratulations.......Derek
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HI Derek
Yes i must admit that black and white pictures make it look more of the part of a second world war sub, i thought Robert took some very good pictures will have to get him to come out next time i go. He said he will do a picture to put in a frame which will be nice.
Thanks for the interest John
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HI GAZZA
Trouble is it does not do exactly what it says on the tin it was not funny at the time when i had to sand the deck all down and start again. Get your Picassa boat done so i can use it for target practice HA HA
All the best John
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No problem john just waiting for firework night <*< . . . . thinking about my Perkasa and its torpedoes or Depth charge . . . or shall I do both and as next month its. . . . . HUNT FOR RED OCTOBER. . {-) {-) {-) {-)
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HI Gazza
All i can say is Garry you won't have to wait for fire work night if some of these torpedoes hit your perkasa it won't just be the sky that lights up it will be Davy Jones locker that your boat will be heading for. And fine on the hunt for red october it could be dive at dawn and ready for battle guns at the ready BANG PERKASA GONE
But on a serious note hopefully will be taking the sub out again in two weeks time if weather is OK hope you can make it
All the best John
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Now come on John we all know the perkasa's have wooden hulls and im hoping your gunner etc. is boss eyed and miss's
But any way just look out for this on the water . . . .
.
.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b9/Strahl_1.jpg/800px-Strahl_1.jpg)
LOL Ok banter over now this week end at king lears lake its
October 2013 6th
BMPRS First Race of 2013, King Lears Lake, Watermead Country Park, Near Wanlip, Leicestershire
http://kinglearmodelboatclub.co.uk/
NOTE council charge £2.50 entry on an automatic machine NO CHANGE GIVEN & automatic drop down post
(http://www.tonbridgefencing.co.uk/images/gate_automation_entry_systems/automatic_barriers_bollards/automatic_bollards.jpg)
Its them mega Fast boats so yea leave it till next week but on the other hand it could be good torpedo pratice for you
(http://www.bmprs.co.uk/_wp_generated/wp1d7e6c22_0f.jpg)
Right back to the gunder powder plot LOL and to stop h jacking your post . .
sorry John hope you got that new Video link up and running now
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HI GAZZA
Right Garry seeing that the perkasa's has got a wooden skin over the frame work it's not going to take much to sink that, and for the boss eyed gunner we have got him some new glasses. And just think we will be able to record it all on the lap top on to hard drive just so you can watch it later. As for them automatic drop posts have you filled them with explosives just to get the sub as we drive over LOL.
Will have to try and go over to next weeks meet at king Lear's lake what time are you going, but then again it depends on the weather. It's a bit like taking the sub out it doesn't matter it the sub gets wet of course but all the electronics that have to go with it on the bank side it does it that gets wet it will all go BANG.
Just been putting the video link in today what a pain in the back end that has been, managed to blow a fuse in a regulating circuit ended up taking half the back end of the sub to bits
All the best John
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hmmm time to build a new TX with lcd screen in it :-))
Now theres an idea for you John
New TX with built in . . . . . . . . EVERY THING :police:
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HI Gazza
Don't fancy building a new TX with LCD screen in it with there being 4 radio links working at one time and trying to build it in to the same box, would be more trouble than it is worth. It would have all sorts of interference going off and would be a night mare trying to stop it. I Have had enough building the new video link and fitting it in the sub at the moment Going to have a break from the sub for a few days, got loads of other stuff to do.
All the best John
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there is the new captin of the sub just thought id post the pics as a laf :D
(http://s17.postimage.org/wm8e6gosb/IMAG0057_1_1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/wm8e6gosb/)
(http://s7.postimage.org/uo6qi0ngn/IMAG0058.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/uo6qi0ngn/)
(http://s14.postimage.org/ibp6k44zx/IMAG0059_1_1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ibp6k44zx/)
by the way for anyone who thinks the dragon is a toy i warn you he bites lol he bit me and i had to go to hospital i woke my son after he bit me as i had blood running all down my arm lol hes not like that often just when you go near his female love struck dragon BTW hes 2ft long so you get the idea of the size of the conning tower
GODZILLA. . . . .
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HI GAZZA
I think the name Godzilla is about right as it felt like that when he bit me, it felt worst afterwards because when they go to bit to kill some thing its like bee stings because they put little bits of venom in to the bit wound to disable there dinner only in this case it was me and i was to big for him to handle HA HA. Plus i had to prize his Jaw open to get him off and they start throwing there head from side to side trying to rip a piece off like a shark would its amazing how strong they are for there size.
John
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I think the creature would have ended up as a handbag or a pair of gloves after that!
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HI Subculture
Not the captain of the sub who would sail it then. To be honest Andy he has never bit any one with intent it was that he saw the other male go for him and my hand was in the way and got me instead, but it did hurt. He will play like a kitten on the floor with you and chase your hand around but his favorite thing to chase is a small teddy bear and then tries to mate with it have got a video of him in action will have to put it on you tube the poor teddy but don't know wheather he will get band for indecent behaviour on you tube
John
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HI All
Would like to wish every one a very happy Christmas to you all. The piston tank control unit that i showed on the above link to video of it working the unit has had the PCB board designed for it which is all surface mounted component's, the board size is about 62mm x 40mm and that is with all the H bridge drive circuit the board is double sided which means it has component's on both sides. Seems to work very well, it all so has radio failsafe on it unit will work from 6 to 12 volts. But hopefully the unit will find its way into my big sub which will all end up linked to depth control unit. The printed circuit board that has just been designed could be linked to a wind screen washer pump and be used as a auto leveling device plus it has got quite a few other things it could be used for. The above unit has no relays which can be a pain in the back end and no micro switches it just plugs straight into your RX receiver in your sub .
I am just about to start and build sonar what would be radio control link but the sonar would control your sub instead of what you know as your TX now, all so looking in to putting sonar that will tell you depth of water under the sub and transmit back and tell you on a screen. We will have to see how it all works out.One of the hard things to do is measure the speed of say a model sub traveling under water many problems come in to stopping you from doing this so many different variables but i think i have found a way of how to get around it, will have to see if i can get it to work Sub John
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You say no micro switches, but what about limit switches, or have you incorporated some sort of current limiting/cut-out?
Also any idea on when this might come to market and a rough idea on price?
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Hi Subculture
Yes you where right when i put the video up on you tube of the piston tank unit when it was knocked up on vero board, the end stops for the tank was using micro switches but i must say i hate the things but the board has been designed so it can be connected up to hall effect soiled state switches if that is the way some one would sooner go. But when i have sat and thought about it the board is so open to be used for other things as well it makes it quite versatile.
You asked when it would be for sale sorry to say Andy there doesn't seem to be much interest in it or that is the way i seem to have picked it up. I was going to do a video to put up on you tube of it made on PCB and was going to show it working with water switch idea being when you put sub in the water it would switch all the electronics on, water switch works off AC voltage so you don't end up with corroding of the electrodes that would be in the water free flood area. For somebody like your self you probably see the benefits of it but the way i pick it up people seem to be very stand off ish which is a bit sad, but electronics is progressing and we have to go with it or they will all still be using micro switches in 20 years time
Sub John
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Think you're a better engineer than a salesman. You are pitching your wares at the wrong audience. I think you would find a more agreeable market for your board in the U.S and other European countries like Germany, France, Spain and Belgium.
Years ago it would have been hard to put word out to the various groups around the globe- no longer the case, as they all have internet presence.
In order to really interest people though, it's important to show a finalized product, and give a price, even if it's an estimate.
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Hi Subculture
I think you are right I'm a better engineer than a salesman. You said about pitching your wares at the wrong audience but it seems a bit strange if you can not sell your product in the UK but like you said abroad is the way to go if so may be i should do a video of the finished product with a price and put it up on You Tube. What did you think of the water switch idea plus water switch unit will have standby switch and the same switch will give you the ability to test the sub on the bench with out having to put it in the water. Thanks for the interest
Sub John
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I use one of your water switches. I got it of Richard Huggett as part of a job lot of stuff, most of which I sold on. It's a good idea, saves mucking about with reed switches and magnets.
Regarding the piston tank. here in the UK I think you have to bear a few things in mind, number one, most modellers using piston tanks are using commercial units by either Engel or units from Ron Perrott. One or two have a go at making their own tanks, but it's the exception rather than the rule. generally these units have been purchased as part of a kit, and they come complete with a control system already, one which may be more agricultural than yours, but it works well enough for the purpose. Therefore unlikely to want an upgrade.
In other countries there are more piston tanks in use, with more modellers growing their own tanks, so that gives you more of a market. Noone else to the best of my knowledge has a transistor based tank controller with absolute feedback . There are relay based units, and solid state units with encoder (incremental not absolute) feedback, but the latter can be tricky to track down and may now be unavailable.
In the States the piston tank system has been gaining some ground, and I can think of a few modellers who would be interested in your board.
Strikes me you've done most of the hard work already in developing this board, as you have a working prototype. Not sure how many you hoped to sell, but I think if you were to make a small batch to start with you'd definitely shift them, and I'm willing to help you get a bit of publicity if you can get a board or two assembled for demonstration.
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HI Subculture
The water switch that you got off Richard was just some thing i did as a one off for one of his boats he was doing. If i remember right the electrodes did not work off AC for the water sensors not like the new one. You said that the water switch was a good idea, i must admit it does save a lot of messing about trying to switch the sub on before putting it in to the water.I Will have to do a video of piston tank with water switch connected to piston tank as well as to BEC circuit to switch on RX, plus unit will switch on main battery feed to speed controllers or what ever. You said that a lot of people in the UK get some sort of control board to work there piston tanks trouble is Andy using relays on control boards for piston tanks is not the way to go its just a cheap solution to a problem when it comes to back EMF from motors relay contacts tend to burn together. I should imagine on a lot of relay control boards there is build in to the circuit board delay times for switching relays to try to stop relays from burning out, but it comes to horses for courses as there is different was to go about this. On the video that i put up of the piston tank working what did you think to it, if you noticed on the video i really gave it some stick going backwards and forwards trying to blow it up but it does seem to be-able to take it.
You said that in the States people might be interested, in the tank control board its nice to get some feed back on your thoughts about it. Thanks for the offer in trying to get some publicity, will have to get a couple of boards built up for demonstration
Sub John
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The video looked good, nice smooth control, and no oscillation around the set point like I've seen on some other designs, which suggests to me that you've done some work on the code to damp the response of the motor as it gets close to the required spot.
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HI GUYS
Just a up date on wireless fish finder have been playing about the last couple of days with the sonar head that will be in the bottom of the sub, what this will do is give you depth of water under the keel to the bottom of the lake will be able to see contour of the lake bottom which will be transmitted back to the bank side, it will work on high frequency but when sub submerges will switch to low frequency so you will be able to see what is under the sub as i don't won't to run aground on some mud bank or what ever it is should be able to see a car on the bottom of lake lol.
Would like to say many thanks to Mike at Horizon Fish Finders very helpfull guy it will be interesting to see how it all works out as it is starting to look good
Sub John
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:-)) well documented & well built..
author=sub john link=topic=32161.msg317425#msg317425 date=1313922645]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmPEnRv5wWM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmPEnRv5wWM) please view this and put your thoughts back to me lol thanks people also part 2 is a link in the description part of the video
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HI Georgo
Thanks for the comments nice to have feed back
All the best Sub John
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Any progress with the piston tank control board, John?
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HI GUYS
Just a up date on sonar system, i twisted the Missus arm to buy me a RF15E Hummingbird wireless fish finder as this one seems to be the best one to go for the job i needed it to do, but 20 Min's after the postman had dropped it off at the door it was in bits being cut up to see what made it tick. The standard unit only did 60 meters in range which is no good to man or beast unit after it has been modded will do half a mile no messing but can do if need be 6 miles, but i will never need that sort of range. The unit will display depth up to 120FT deep it looks good to see the contour of the lake bottom on the screen on the bank side. The original sonar head is designed to sit on the back of the bate boat on the surface of the water looking down in to the lake, but i wonted to fit it so it was on the keel of the sub telling you the depth of the water from the keel to the bottom of the lake it will now work on the keel of the sub. I would like to say a big thank you to Tony Bollard for leanding me his big tug boat to fit all the gear in and take it for a spin around the lake to see if it works OK put the sonar unit on the bottom of his keel to see if it worked and it all seemed to work OK would all so like to thank Gazza for coming over from Leicester to take all the gear down to the lake to try it and all it did was rain but at least we got to see if it worked. Have just got to do radio link for low frequency so when sub dives will transmit data back to show on receiver screen on bank side. Have reworked receiver unit which is a lot more sensitive fitted preamp and interdigital band pass filter designed antenna for it and it seems to work quite well
Sub John
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HI Subculture
Have been that busy with doing sonar for the sub, the piston tank control unit is finished on a PCB board works very well but have just left it. As i seem to be having a big problem trying to post up reply on youtube didn't won't to do video of it working if i can not post it up on youtube have got videos to do of other bits but seem to spend most of my time doing electronics and designing. Andy have you come up with any problems with youtube other people are having problems as well.
Sub John
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Haven't uploaded anything to Youtube for a while, bit it worked okay last time I tried. Always takes a while to upload content as I'm still on an ADSL line.
Perhaps you could post up some images on here, pictures are just as good as vids for the most part.
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HI Subculture
You said about posting some pictures on here. I have just suddenly realized that i have a problem trying to put pictures up on here. i used to use my sons camera but he has now left home so can not use that any more, will have to find another way to be able to post some pictures up on here. will sort some thing out and will have to post some pictures of the sonar that i have been playing around with. I'm hoping to take the sub out a lot more this year after some body ran across the deck of the sub last year. I have been thinking about putting the torpedo's in it but have been told if i put them in i will be banned off the lake, but it might be worth it LOL
Sub John
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Cameras are ten a penny these days. You don't need anything exoic for internet use, anything with 2 megapixel or higher is suitable. Cameras that were cutting edge ten years ago are regarded as landfill these days, but are still perfectly usable.
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Thanks Sub John for letting see the sub in the flesh, the photos on here do not do it justice. was speekless and gobsmacked not just in it size but in how clever it is, its a work of art.
if any one wonders its heavy, made the mistake of trying to lift it(my back still hurts {-) ).
can't wait to see it in the water soon hopefully
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HI TIM
Nice to meet you when you came over this week, i did say to you that when you see it in the flesh it is bigger than you think and yes it is a heavy best. Any way glad you was impressed with it, just been putting the screen cables in for the sonar head unit under the sub all so put the cable in for RF antenna to send back sonar info to the receiver on the bank side i ended up taking some of the sub to bits to get cables through to where they need to go to link up to the rest of the electronics
All the best John
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Evening All,
done a quick edit of John's Videos in to one Video, hope you enjoy it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPy8F2Vf9LA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPy8F2Vf9LA)
Hoping to make a all new video footage in the coming month's
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HI Tim
I must say i think you made a good job in putting all the video bits together in to one film, when some of these video bits was being took the sub was still being trimmed up and was going round with 3pounds of lead on top of the deck on the front of the sub which was making it unstable when turning, but at least i got to have a spin round the lake and try it. I didn't won't to take it any lower in the water than it was because of all them boats going round on the surface as they would not have seen the sub if i went any deeper. But like you said we will have to do some more videoing of it now the weather is picking up, but thinking about it because of all the sonar and bits and bobs that have been put in over the winter it's got to be trimmed up again, but i don't think it will be that far out. I have been making a board for your sub so you don't have to use a servo and micro switches to work your ballast pump will give you a ring later
PS have got to get the sub trimmed up before the show in May John
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Hi John,
can't wait to get soon video of it launching the torpedoes and sinking something. Will having to build a mock boat to sink {-)
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HI Tim
You don't have to build a mock boat we can use yours instead but if we do this on your lake i won't get band will i as i don't think the club will like it much LOL. Was going to come over today to your club but with it being mothers day my son turned up and it got to later to come over as you was all leaving i went flying instead.
All the best John
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HI Guys
Alvaston Pirates Model Boat Club are having a Grand Opening Day on the 11TH May at Derby and I will be taking my Gato to the show and hopefully get it on the water as there is not a slip way and the guys have got to man handle it in to the water. All i can say is i hope they have had there Weetabix as they will sure need it to pick this up and get it in the water. Should be good for a laugh to see a few red faces struggling to pick it up, just hope the weather stays good on the day.
Went over to see the guys at there club lake a few weeks ago and they all seem to be friendly bunch of guys
All the best Sub John
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HI Guys
Was told last night that i would not be able to take the sub to the show at Derby on the 11th of May as they can not get the drop down Ballard's to go down in to the ground so i can get the sub through the main gates in the trailer. Sorry to any one that was going to the show to see it there but there is not much i can do about it.
Sub John
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I wish to pass on a apologies from the Club, The coucil spent a few hours trying to free up the metal bollard but to no use.
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Has there been any update on the piston tank control board, John?
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Shame about the bollard, John.
How about bringing the sub to Norwich? At the very least you could display it on the trailer.
David
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HI Subculture
The piston tank that i was using as the test jig the person won't ed it back so at the moment i have no piston tank to connect it up to so its on the back burner until i get some thing sorted which is a shame as it worked well. Like i said it is all made on a PCB board now all done with surface mounted components uses moss fets as a full bridge so has no relays i have tried very hard to blow it up just to see how much hammer it would take but it still works. The way the circuit works you could use it for making a proportional water pump to fill a ballast tank and empty.
Me and my friend have just finished a new lipo monitor just got to fit the wires on to the board and try it hopefully its finished and ready for the market, had quite a few people asking when it will be finished will work with any speed controller and will work from 2 to 12 lipos and will auto detect cells that have been plugged in
Sub John
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HI David
Its a long way from where we are to come to Norwich it will take 2.5 to 3 hours to get there just to use the sub as a static model. The local model boat club that i am in is just sorting things out to take it to the show at Warwick which i think is in November, so hopefully i will be taking it there. It was a shame that the drop bollard at the main gates would not drop down in to the ground at Derby show which was on today
Sub John
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What kind of size tank would you want to experiment with? Also what sort of speed. Faster tanks would be more taxing to control for accurate positioning I guess.
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HI Subculture
Thanks for taking interest in piston tank control board, yes you are right the faster the piston moves in the tank the more demanding it is for control board to keep control of positioning of the piston in the tank. The size of the tank would need to hold about 1 to 1.5 pints of water, the ideal tank to use would be a Engal tank trouble is Andy it would be nice to test every board on test jig before it went out the door just to make sure every one works as it should. Thought of having a look to see if i could find any one that was selling a piston tank the guy that i could of asked to make me a piston tank has sadly passed away, he used to run his own engineering company many years ago hear in Loughborough he did a lot of machining bits on the gato he did all the bits for the front hydroplanes and i remember him saying it will never work but he was wrong.
Sub John
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A few things you can consider.
If you want an engel tank, Ron Perrott has a pair of 6 volt 750ml tanks new in packet he's been looking to move on for a while. He also had a pair of 500ml tanks, but they've just been sold. He wanted about £150 for a pair, which is around half the new price from Engel. He didn't want to split though, so you'd have to find a buyer for the other tank if you only wanted one.
Second option- Ron maybe willing to make you one of his design tanks.
Failing that, the third option I can have a go for you. I don't have any geared motors in my spares box for that size of tank, but they're readily available from ebay. My tank would use o-ring or Airzet seals rather than the cup seal used by Engel.
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HI Subculture
Thanks for the offer of you trying to make a piston tank but it would not be fair on you to spend your time making me a tank, have got loads of ideas for this control board will just have to leave it on the back burner for now. I won't to finish the new sonic link for controlling the sub for under water as this will work in salt water it will be interesting.
All the best Sub John
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what would be impressive :-)) ,
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HI Tim
Yes it will be impressive because it will open up a hole new development for model submarines control for under water all you will do is throw a transducer in to the water and that is what you will transmit to the sub with will work in fresh water or salt will have to see how it goes
Sub John
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Quick video of the sub underwater. hope you enjoy it.
Sure the wader's had a hole in them John {-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DKKsWHf-rw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DKKsWHf-rw)
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HI Tim
Thanks for coming over on Sunday to give me a hand in taking the sub out and a big thanks to Tony as well i would not be-able to take it out with out your help. Thought the underwater shots looked good but wish the water was not like pea soup me and the misses spent 2 hours trying to get all that white stuff off the sub its a lot like cotton wool. Hows your hand after trying to crush it getting the sub out of the trailor can not beleive we had problems with my camcorder have just been back to the shop where i got it from and they have no batterys for it in stock they are only £3.99 on ebay will have to get one. Main problem was the springs in side the battery box in side the camcorder where not sticking out enough to make contact with the batteries
Sub John
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Got the all the video on the weekend, there three parts so please grap coffee and enjoy :) and select 720p
http://youtu.be/xZA1urdQWnI (http://youtu.be/xZA1urdQWnI)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKIS9C6ZliA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPSNwwWcRAI
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HI Tim
Just got Pauline hear watching the video's that you did and she thinks you have done a fantastic job, many thanks from me for doing the videos still have not had a look at the video recorded from the sub sent back on the radio link on to hard drive, have got to have a look just to see what it came out like. I was just glad that i did not have any more problems with the bush on the back hydroplanes as it was starting to be a pain in the back end, now the leveller circuit seems to work better now that i have given it more gain on the circuit board. It was a shame we did not get the sub on camera going around at periscope depth but seeing as the camcorder only wonted to work now and again I'm supprized you got as much videoing as you did if it plays up again it will go in the lake
Many thanks John
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Well done Tim and John...excellent footage.. I sat down with a nice cuppa and really enjoyed watching it.
Rich
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HI Rich
Thanks for coming back with reply glad you enjoyed the video's like i said it was a pity we did not get more videoing than we did but hopefully we will get more videoing next time one thing i have not said is that the sonar that i put in the sub for the depth and contour of the lake sent back on radio link to bank side worked a treat which i was pleased about. The time involved in doing some of the electronics seem to go on for ever but it's nice when it works at the end as i do get a buzz out of it
Thanks again John
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Glad to hear it, John...must be a good feeling when everything works after all that hard work. What's next?
Rich
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HI Rich
You asked what's next, need to get a piston tank sorted out so i can interface it with that control board i made as it seems a shame to leave it just sitting on the shelf as it did work really well.
All so won't to drop back on to sonic link for controlling the sub but every time i go to start it some thing else crops up and the end result is i never seem to get back on to it. Sonic link will work on around 90KHZ i have managed to find some high powered pizo sensor's it you touch the column of water coming off it you can start to feel as if it is burning your fingers, i know what you are going to say don't touch it then it should be interesting to see where it goes. With playing around with sonar it has helped me find out a few use full things about sonar under water
All the best John
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John, you frighten the life out of me with all this stuff...are you saying that you'll be having a proper operational sonar onboard?
Are you going to Norwich, by the way? If yes, then I'll see you there, Ian and I are going up on the Sunday.
Rich
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HI Rich
Trouble is i think a lot of people are scared off by the electronics, the sonar that is on at the moment will tell you depth under the keel of the sub and show you contour of the lake bottom as well. Plus hopefully the sub will have a form of sonar for controlling it your normal TX will just plug in to it by buddy lead socket on the side of the TX so it won't matter what frequency you are on as the RF coming out of the transmitter will not need to send out a signal only the code from it to tell the sonar what to do, you will still have full movement on servo's and switches.
It is not that difficult to have range finding sonar trouble is this stuff takes time to develop and i must admit i do get a bit fed up with it my self so i do need to take a break from it. That's when the model planes come out and i go flying.
Trouble is for us to go to Norwich and take the sub is a 3-4 hour journey one way and to go there and back in one day for Pauline to drive is just to much. Other problem is we have 2 reptiles we have to be home for at night its a shame that it is that far a way. Plus i don't think i would be-able to get it in the water there any way.
When Tim came over to see it at my house i said to him see if you can pick the front up of the sub he could not even pick it up thought he was going to claps in a heap on the floor i don't think he could believe how heavy it was
All the best John
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You know the extent of my knowledge of electronic things, John...I can plug a servo into a receiver, and that's as far as it goes. Shame you can't make Norwich, I'd like to have seen the monster again.
According to the RAC journey planner, it's a three hour plus journey from down here up to Norwich. It's been a while since I drove any distance like that, so I'll be sitting alongside Ian and reading from the pace notes...be like a co driver in a rally car!
Rich
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Ah so I can blame you when we get lost then Rich {-)
Yes It's a shame you can't make it John, I like the sound of sonar, although I've still to build my first one, What's that saying, walk before you can run....
Come on Rich the clock is ticking and that Akula needs to be ready ok2
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HI Ian
Well all i can say is if Rich is navigating you to Norwich you might end up in Skegness, i think you had better get the TOM-TOM out you might get there then sorry Rich.
Yes it is a shame if i can not make it to Norwich for the show when is it , i have just been talking to Pauline to see what we can sort out to see if we can get there
All the best John
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HI Rich
Fine on not knowing much about electronics i suppose it comes down to horses for courses I'm lucky i can do electronics and mechanics as well. Some one gave me a small lathe which i do enjoy messing around with but sorry to say not that good at machining yet but getting there.
Whats this about building a new sub hopefully i will be building a smaller sub my self it will make life a lot easier to go out sailing best thing is when you can put it on the back seat of the car and not like moving 500LBS of 12FT monster, have got to say if it was not for my friends i would not be-able to take it out as it would be imposable for me and Pauline to take it out on our own
All the best John
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HI Guys
Sorry for not beingable to take the sub to many shows, but i have been having serious problems with my heart over the last 9 months, all my electronic projects have had to go on the back burner. I have got to go in to hospital in the next few days for a triple heart bypass and all going well should be home with in 5 days, i must say all the staff at Glenfield hospital in Leicester have been great.
Happy building John
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Oh my good gawd, John...I wish you good luck with that. Keep your hands off the electronic gizmos that they seem to leave laying about in hospital wards, leave the nurses alone, and do as the doc tells you.
See you soon, me old mucker...
Rich
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HI Richard
Must confess I'm not looking forward to this at all on Friday but got to go in to have it done. Have already been kissed by a few of the nurses and as for the gizmo's they won't let me near them i asked last week when i was in for 4 days.
All the best John
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All the best, John!
Speak to you again soon.
David
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Good luck John...put those nurses down, remember the blood pressure!
Rich
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HI David
Thanks for all the best David hopefully i won't be in the hospital to long
Sub John
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HI Richard
Never mind the blood pressure thanks for the good luck.
Sub John
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HI All
Had my triple heart bypass and glad to say I'm back home, all i can say is i would not like to go through that again. Won't be able to take the sub out for a while but some thing to look forward to when i can.
All the best Sub John
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Glad to hear you made it through the op, that's a major procedure. I'm sure you'll feel a lot better once you're fully recovered.
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glad to hear everything went well. now its time to put you feet up and recover and look forward to next year flying and sailing that Sub :-) .
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Welcome back, JR...glad all went ok for you. Now just take things easy for a bit, leave the sub alone, and get yourself healthy again.
See you soon,
Rich
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Very good news, John.
Get well soon.
David
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Very good news, John.
Get well soon.
..... my grass needs cutting if you want some exercise!
Martin :-)
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Yes, good news indeed! I agree with the rest of these men, get rest, heal, then back to the sub. The sub can wait.
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HI Subculture
Yes you are right Andy it is a major op i must say that i am getting more pain from the cut down my leg than i am my chest. The pain from the chest is bad enough at the moment i feel as if i have gone through a mangle but enough said about that. I have got loads of things i won't to do but they will just have to wait a few weeks until i start to feel a lot better.
Andy i won't to get back on to doing piston tank i have a few new ideas on how to get full linear feed back all the way down the tank secret is i might be able to do it with magnets so if you are still interested in having a go at making a piston tank let me know,reason why i did not won't you to start making piston tank didn't know how things was going to turn out with heart bypass but as you know all the soft ware and drive circuit H bridge and circuit board is all done now and what would be micro switches on the end of the tank can be done with hall effect senors
Thanks for get well wishes Martin will have to pass on cutting the grass i am struggling to walk down a garden at the moment never mind cut it.
Would like to thank every one for the get well wishes
All the best Sub John
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No problem. What sort of size piston tank would be optimal? I can machine almost any diameter, but one around 45-50mm diameter would be easiest as I have the right tubing for that to hand. Length wise, the tubing I have goes up to about 25cm or thereabouts.
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HI Subculture
First question is can you make the piston travel up and down the threaded rod with gland or would you won't to make it so it work's the same as the Engal tanks so the threaded rod travels out the end of the gear box. Other question is with the idea i have got with the linear feed back pot the company that i have found can make these up to 2metes long and are true slide controls and can be bonded down to a surface so these would be ideal for a piston tank wafer thin as well. Only problem is can the piston be made not to turn inside the tube as the piston needs to have a magnet on it and the magnetic flux will go through the wall of the tube to where on the out side will be the feed back pot which will have a magnet on that, so the magnets have got to stay lined up have a think and see what you think thanks for the offer of doing the piston tank. Other question how much do you think it will cost to make it if you can do a tank that is 50mm diameter inside and all so 25cms which filled would give 502 grams weight of water, but if could be made longer it would be better just let me know
All the best John
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Making the piston run up and down the thread shouldn't be much of a problem; that's how Ron Perrott's tanks work, and they're well proven. Just means putting a stuffing box on the piston to seal the thread.
Keeping the piston from turning/revolving, is a little more tricky. I've seen air motors that use octagonal cylinders and pistons, but that's a bit beyond my machining skills.
The only practical way that springs to mind is to put an additional rod above the main thread, and that would also need sealing against water ingress if that rod also remained fixed. An o-ring in the piston should take care of that, but it's another point of potential failure.
Regarding size. I can do 50mm up to 20cm long, as that is the longest piece of pipe I have in that diameter. I got this sent over from a fellow modeller in Germany, and he cut it into sections to keep postage sensible. I've had no luck finding a supplier here in the UK for 50mm I/D pipe. I do have some 60mm tubing with a 55mm internal diameter, and I could make that long enough for a 500cc tank. The latter pipe is used for coaxial flues on condensing boilers, and the internal finish is totally smooth and accurate, unlike most extruded plastic pipe.
The other alternative is to go to 80mm. This involves laminating the tube on a former. I've had a go at this in the past, and it worked okay, but I used polyester resin, and the tube moved a bit. I could have a crack with epoxy resin and carbon fibre which should should produce a light but strong tube that stays true, and you would only need a tank length of 10cm plus piston and bulkhead depth for a volume of 500cc. I'm still experimenting with this at the moment, so might be better to go with the pre-moulded pipe.
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HI Subculture
Fine on making piston tank work the same way as Ron Perrott's, I know that stuffing boxes can be a bit of a problem traveling up and down the threaded rod. You had the same idea as me have a additional rod above the threaded rod to stop the piston rotating where the rod goes thought the piston it will need a brass bushing both sides of the piston where the rod goes through may be with the silicone O ring sandwiched between. When the piston is locked in to place by the rod stopping it rotating you can place a magnet both sides of the piston these then will switch off the hall effect sensors on the out side of the end caps on the piston tank. Another magnet will be placed on the out side edge of the piston and if the piston wall is say made of plastic it will pass through the magnetic flux to a magnet on the other side which will be linked to the feed back pot i know i have said this bit before.
You said you had got some 60mm with a 55mm internal diameter and could be made to make a 500cc tank you said the pipe is used for coaxial flues on condensing boilers the question is would it pass through the magnetic flux from the magnet on the piston to the out side wall to connect to feed back pot is the tube made of stainless or aluminum, i think it will make a interesting project.
Andy some body has just given my one of those Neptune's submersible its not my type of submarine but i will have a go at refitting it as the guy took all the insides out so all i have got is the hull but what i did think about was it would make a ideal building platform to put the sonar control system that i won't to do as it is small, when it is all fitted in will be able to take it to a swimming pool or some other clear water and test it out with out having to take a 12FT sub out. Just to much agro just to test new ideas plus every time you do put more things in you have to re trim the sub which is a real pain in the back end. Hope to take the sub to a lot more shows next year just got to heal a bit.
Thanks for your help Andy All the best John
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The pipe is PVC so no worries there. Condensing boilers can have plastic flues, as the exhaust is cold enough not to soften the plastic.
Does a Neptune need a 500ml tank? I thought they had a bag that displaced about half that figure.
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The neptune bag is much less than 500ml... more like 200ml if that
I had one to use in my seawolf conversion.
Can't remember who i gave it to now, someone on here anyway.... might have been Rich (U33)
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Just had a look at the manual for the boat, says 7.7kg displacement surfaced and 7.95kg dived, so yep 250ml. So either John is pitching for a higher waterline or he's doing a special.
Poked a few numbers through my excel spreadsheet, and it's given me in the ballpark of a 20 watt motor to run a 500ml tank with a 55mm piston up in about 17 seconds. The motor will need to be geared to run around 750 RPM if using an M6 thread to run up in that time. All the geared motors I have are a little slow for that, or too puny.
Something like this would do it-
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/800RPM-12VDC-2P-4mm-Shaft-Diameter-Electric-Geared-Box-Motor-/290957103353?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item43be6510f9
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HI Subculture
The piston tank is not to fit the Neptune, i am going to put a bag in it the same as the original sub like you said it's only about 250ml of water it takes on board to get it to dive will have a look to see what motor and gear box i have laying around if not will have to see what i can get hold of. You said about 750rpm a minute
All the best John
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I need to be around that rate for the tank to fill in that time window. All the motor gearbox combos I have are about half that or less, and they would do the job, but you'd be looking at a dive time of at least 40 seconds, which is ponderous to say the least. I have one or two bits and bobs I could probably adapt, but when you can get good units for a few quid on ebay, it hardly seems worth mucking about.
With the spindle fixed, the motor can connect to the spindle directly via inline gearbox, which simplifies motor installation as you don't need any drop gears.
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HI Subculture
Not felt to good the last two days so sorry for replying a bit late, if you can get a gear box Andy just get one and i will give you the money for it. I have had a look and can not find a gear box that would do the job, all the stuff i have is just to big like you said it dose not seem worth mucking about when you can get a gear box for a few quid.
Thanks for your help All the best John
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Okay, no probs.
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Been having a rummage around. Found some geared Maxon motors. These are 24 volt, which is probably a bit high voltage for what you want, and they're too slow anyway. However they have very nice 18:1 gearboxes. One of the motors is kaput, so I can very likely fit another motor. I have a good selection, a 280 motor would work well, but I'm thinking that you may be more likely to use a 12 volt system, and my 280's are 6-8 volt motors. I do have some 12 volt motors of modest size that may do the job.
So what voltage do you think would be preferable?
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HI Subculture
Maxon motors that are on 24 volts would be to high voltage was going to use 12 volts to run piston tank on, but if you can use a 8 volt motor i should be able to get it to work OK but i would sooner stick to 12 volt system if possible. I have sent you a PM which hopefully you have got thanks again for having a go at piston tank it,s nice of you to do it
All the best Sub John
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Okay. I have quite a few 12 volt motors of various vintage, so I'll see what if I can adapt something. Shaft sizes are usually the bug bear, European manufacturers use metric shafts and Japanese often go with imperial!
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HI Guys
sorry to say not been very active the last few months, with triple heart bypass then left lung cavity filled with 4.5 liters of fluid ended up back in hospital but seem to be getting over it now. The good news is the misses has took pity on me and just brought me one of Alexander Engel GATO TMAX with all tanks and add ons to go with it, got email today to say it had been shipped out to the UK, what a nice Christmas present it is will have to start building when i get my hands on it, have loads of ideas what i wan't to put in it.
So with a bit of look will have some thing i can take to shows and it will works just as good as my big beast does with a bit of look, but if i do a build log will have to start a new thread
All the best Sub John
PS WISH YOU ALL A MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR
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Good news that you're getting better now, JR...nice to hear from you again.
Can I borrow Pauline for a while....I'll take an Engel Nautilus, please ;D
Merry Xmas to you and and yours, John...
Rich
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HI Richard
Sorry to say I'm not letting you have Pauline for a while she has got my spraying to do, and she said I'm not a money tree get your own Nautilus. I'm sitting hear now waiting for the sub from Engel to get hear i think the first thing i will look at is the tanks and the way it all works i will keep you informed. One of the things I'm not keen on is people use a channel on the transmitter for the front hydroplanes to make the mechanism fold them up and down in to the deck i think that will need to be reworked so it will do it all its self when it dives its to easy to forget to flick the switch on the transmitter when diving and the front hydroplanes don't work because they have not folded down. Just my thoughts i know a lot of people like to keep it simple but not me.
Have a nice Christmas John
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HI All
Hope you got the presants that you wonted for Christmas.
I have started to build the Engel Gato that i got for Christmas but was not happy about just having one center hatch for excess to the inside of the water tight compartment so i have made a hatch at the front of the sub and the back, as there is going to be a lot of electronics in side so will need easy excess. The Tmax control board for the tanks that came with the kit i have decided to scrap that as it will not do what i won't it to do, and i do not like the idea of relays for switching ballast tanks so it has had to go. A little while ago i designed a proportional piston tank control board which will take the place of the Tmax diving system there will be one board for each piston tank i have been trying these boards out on the two Engel tanks and what i have done is put a tank on each end of a seesaw the sort of things you see in a kids play ground, so what happens is when you fill the front tank on one end of the seesaw it starts to tilt downwards the last 20% of the tank goes in to proportional mode the piston tank on the other end of the seesaw races to catch up and this tank is connected to a very sensitive leveler which is in the middle of the seesaw and as this tank comes to the last 20% of the fill of the tank it goes in to proportional mode and what happens is the seesaw stays perfectly horizontal. If you place 5 grams of weight at one end of the seesaw the back piston tank ratchets in to keep the hole system level i hope you guys can see where this is going. So the next step is to have the front tank connected to a selectable depth control so what you should be able to do at the end of the day is put the sub down at say 2ft in depth in the water sitting still and it will just hoover there with a bit of look hope you have found this interesting as in time this system will be going in to my big sub.
All the best Sub John
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HI Guys
I was hoping to come to model boat mayhem at Wicksteed park and bring the sub but the consultant at the hospital said it was to early to move some thing as heavy as that plus the misses said no so i ended up grounded but now i have been given the all clear from the consultant i hope to be there next year.I must say sorry to Martin admin as i told him that i would try to bring it but it was not to be.
I must say that i had a big problem with the transmitter for the sub a few weeks ago, i had external battery plugged in to the transmitter it was turned off at the time so the external battery should have been disconnected and had a charger plugged in charging internal battery and seemed to be charging OK and at the time i was on the phone talking to a friend when there was 2 big bangs and smoke pouring out of the joy sticks on the front of the transmitter even when i pulled all plugs from the side of the transmitter smoke was still coming out what a mess it made in side, and all because of a relay sticking. The problem is this transmitter was made 25 years ago and would be very hard to build a new one to match it to the sub so i had to try and repair it as you could not buy a transmitter with as many channels as that has got so if i did not repair it the sub would have been scrap. Took me a week to repair and it turned out to be a pain in the neck but all done now and seems to work fine thank goodness.
Have been hard at it building Engel Gato and have done lots of modes to it, been designing a-lot of electronics to go in side. I have not done a build log on it as there seems to be a lot of people that have done build logs on the Engel Gato already, so it did not seem worth the time doing another.
All the best Sub John
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Post your build John... no one build anything exactly the same.
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You already mentioned you did mods to the sub, so your sub is different. Put the build out here so we all can learn! Please.
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I have been lucky enough to see it different stages. Done a really good job so far. I post a photo later of it sat on top of the big one.
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HI Martin
Hope you are well, i have not took any photos of the Engel sub yet but will have to see what i can do thanks for coming back with reply.
All the best John
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HI Salmon
With re-guards to Engel Gato have been trying to build 2 new model planes which i have now finished and the Gato as well, have been trying to cut corners so thought that not doing a build log would save time as i have gone mad building stuff at the moment thanks for reply
All the best Sub John
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HI Tim
Didn't know if the pictures that you took of the Engel Gato sat on top of the big Gato turned out OK, as from what i can remember it looked small sat on top of the hull of the big sub. What i will say after cutting out all the vents on the deck of the small Gato it seemed to take for ever and i must confess i was fed up with it at the end, have done quite a bit to it since you last saw it making Stern guard for the back of the sub where the props are it took quite a bit of time to make but the end result makes it worth while, must confess the small lath that Garry gave me has made life allot easier to make bits
All the best John
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not great, but here you go
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HI Tim
The Engel Gato looks small sat on top of the big sub i suppose the pictures did not turn out to bad with the light not being very good in the garage. I am struggling to do anything since Thursday after having Gizmo put to sleep saddest day of our life's he was part of the family.
All the best John
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I would like to wish every one a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year hopefully will be-able to take the big sub to some of the shows, and it should not be long before the Engel Gato will be up and running so that will be going to some shows as well. So I'm looking forward to the up coming shows for 2016
All the best Sub John
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John,
Merry Christmas!
Have a blessed time with family and be safe on New Years!
Peace,
Tom
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HI Guys
Don't know if any of you have seen what some people are doing with ARDUINO boards, on youtube they are showing radar units using software running off Arduino. One of the videos that i saw on youtube showed you the radar screen working on a lap top screen and had also got LCD screen showing you distance to target so i decided to go out and buy one of the Arduino mega adk board and have a go but the original unit works off 40khz TX and RX sonic heads, what the plan is to change this in to a real radar system i know how to make this work using microwave electronics there is a few bands that you can use and it would be legal to do it. There is a few technical problems to iron out but i could not see why you could not build it and put it in the 12ft submarine and can not see why you would not be able to use it for sonar as well as radar, have got all the unit working on the bench at the moment and must say that i have had to stop doing my Engal Gato as i got to interested in doing this so it should be very interesting to see how it turns out. With all the miniature electronics that are available it makes it possible to do this with a bit of look
All the best Sub John
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The Beast has been let loose for the weekend. Come down and see it in person at the coalville model boat show.
P.S Thank John & Pauline.
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HI Tim
See you took some pictures of the beast, it does look quite big in the pictures it was a lot of work to get it ready and to get it there. hope to see you tomorrow afternoon should be there around 14.00 hours i noticed that there was a lot of people was supprised on how big it was.
All the best John
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HI All
I have decided to get rid of the moulds for the 12FT sub they will be going to Mark at Marks model bits so if any one is ever interested in having one Mark is going to make some hulls and decks but i think they will be made to order
All the best John
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HI All
I have decided to get rid of the moulds for the 12FT sub they will be going to Mark at Marks model bits so if any one is ever interested in having one Mark is going to make some hulls and decks but i think they will be made to order
All the best John
Probably a wise decision, JR...these big boats have a habit of turning into a white elephant, like my 9' U boat. They look terrific out on the water, but it requires a military operation to take them out for an afternoon's sailing.
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HI Rich
You couldn't be more right trying to get organized to take this 12FT sub out is a night mare if people doesn't turn up it does get to be hard work, it's bad enough trying to get the Engel Gato into the back of the car had to think about getting rid of the moulds as we are thinking about moving.
All the best John
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HI Guys
I have just brought a phantom 4 quadcopter what a piece of kit it is some of the things you can access like active track you can draw a square around your self on the tablet screen and the phantom 4 will just follow you around, and i must say it is very strange to have it following behind going every where that you walk. What i am hoping to do with this is get it to follow the submarine on the water and should get some really good video shots, it has got a 4k camera fitted with full gimble control of camera some people have had problems trying to fly over water but you have to turn off some of the sensors but it will be interesting to try. I flow this in sport mode the other day and it does around 45 miles per hour.
All the best John
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HI GUYS
I thought i would put this on hear first is there any one out there who knows of a piece of water or lake with a slip way that i would be-able to take my 12ft Gato submarine and sail it and be-able to film it with a Phantom 4 Quadcopter, one of the problems is you have to be so far away from people or property to be safe flying it of course in case if any thing goes wrong with the Phantom 4 plus you would also need promission to be-able to fly it there.
Where i used to sail it you now have to be in the model boat club which i am not plus you would not be-able to fly the Phantom 4 because it is a park and to close to the public when flying it
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Well, the 1st thing is where do you live in the World, then we could help you find suitable waters.
Add your Location to your Profile.
Merry Christmas.
Len.
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Hi Len
My Location is Loughborough Leicestershire UK about 3 miles off junction 23 on the M1
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you Len
And a Merry Christmas to every body on mayhem
Sub John
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And the same back to you and Pauline, JR...have a great time, old friend.
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HI Rich
Thanks for the seasons greetings hope you are well, sorry to say that i have not done much sailing the last few months tour a hole in my tendents and i have never had pain like it at one point i didn't know if i was going to have to have it operated on with it trapping my sciatic nerve in my leg but glad to say it is allot better now. But ever since my leg pain i have just had to leave the Engel sub on the garage floor i have been thinking about getting rid of it but Pauline does not seem keen on me selling it.
All the best Sub John
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Ye God's, JR...I can't leave you on your own for five minutes, can I...you are not safe!
Sorry to hear about your tales of woe, I don't get to use the Akula that much, but I could never sell it. Hoping to get to Bournville this coming year, and Norwich is a certainty.
Best you go and lay down in a dark room now... %)
Happy New Year to you and Pauline...take it easy, that's an order ;D
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HI Rich
You are right about tales of woe it's a shame i have not took the Engel out much as it does work really well now i have ironed out all the gremlins. Haven't done any work on the big Gato fitting any more electronics, have got to the point if i can not take it out and sail it there is not much point doing any more on it sorry to say.
I seem to have gone back into flying planes and drones would like to go to Bournville but every time i say I'm going to go some thing allways stops me from going i would like to go to Norwich but it is a long way to go for a few hours and take the big sub.
Some where on hear there is a picture of the big Bosc Monitor Repital that Pauline got me but he is getting to big to carry he is all most the same size as Pauline but as soft as muck he must be a stone and a half now Pauline calls him BOZILLA. He is why we can not stop the night any where can not leave him all night on his own he would distroy his viv he has already ript one piece to bits and that was because we went out for 2 hours and left him.
Have a Happy New Year Sub John
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HI Guys I Would like to wish everybody a Happy New Year All the best Sub John
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Happy New Year John, what sub plans do you have this year?
Peace,
Tom
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HI Salmon Can you remember seeing the bosc monitor i posted a picture on hear some where sorry to say we lost him a few months ago, it was very sad put me off doing any thing for quite a while. In answer to your question would like to try to take the Engal to some shows but ever time i say I'm going some thing all ways goes wrong. I have brought a Phantom 4 drone and the idea was to do some filming of the subs and all i will say is it has been back and exchanged 3 times and back for repair 2 times and have only just got it back so hopefully will get some filming in this year. Must say I'm not very impressed with it, i think it likes going on it's holidays back to DJI in the Netherlands to be repaired All the best John
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Very sorry to hear of your monitor passing. It was part of your life and a part of the family.
With subs it always seems to be one thing or another. Your creations take it to a new level, but I am sure you will get control of it.
I have several friends and they have not had a trouble with their DJI. Third time is a charm!
Take care and look forward to hearing more from you in 2018.
Peace,
Tom
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HI Guys I see there has been alot of interest in 458mhz or round abouts for using in model subs but this frequency the higher you go in frequency the less range you will get under water, with out going into technical stuff so what i am just starting to work on now is sonic link for controlling the sub under water, so you wont be using RF at all. Plus when you go down into sonic link you will be even be able to control the sub in salt water i have been working on different bits so it will all work together and it looks like it will work, all you will do is plug lead into buddy box lead output and it will work. This is why you need to go down to low frequency to get it to work in salt water other wise it will not work, LF will work to a extent but antenna's be come to long will have to see how it goes All the best Sub John
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Sounds interesting, John (no pun intended).
Could also be integrated into a module for use in modern radios with a module port, perhaps?
What became of the proportional piston tank board you developed? Did you plan to go commercial with that, or was it just for personal use. Looked promising in the video you posted some time back.
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HI Andy
The sonic link could be used for quite a few things, idea of having buddy box lead so it plug's into any TX weather it is on 35MHz 40MHz or 2.4ghz as long as it sees the code coming out it would transmit the code to the sub. Been looking at some high powered sonic heads to use for TX i have seen some 50watt units but that is quite high powered for what we need, for sailing in the local lake have also been looking at sonic radar for going in the sub. I have been playing around with arduino mega to display screen for radar and have got that to work found the software for that on somebody Else's website no body could get it to work but i have and it does look very impressive the guy had made a very good job of it, but the guy did show it on his website working but he would not come back and tell anyone how to get it to work i suppose he did not won't to make it to easy for them.
The proportional piston tank board i did think about going commercial with it but didn't think there was a big enough market in model subs but i could be wrong.The circuit boards for the piston tanks has been in the small Gato for 3 years now and i have not touched them in that time so i think it is safe to say they are a re lieable unit, but what i must say i did think one of the boards had thrown a wobbly in the sub but what it was ended up being a micro switch sticking on the piston tank. Andy i hate micro switches and relays give me power mosfets any time i can work with them and i do like some of the big ig-fet drivers loads of volts and amps. Thanks for coming back Andy and showing interest somebody like your self will see where it is going
All the best Sub John
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Don't think the market is particularly large for anything when it comes to model submarines- it's all a bit niche.
Having said that, a fair few out there with Engel subs that would benefit from a rugged solid state alternative.
Engel had a dabble with this on their early 212 kits, but appear to have reverted to relays on subsequent models.
How many would you want to shift to make it worthwhile? Have you considered offering the design as a schematic and PCB legend, with a pre-programmed microcontroller. That way you wouldn't have to stock up on components, and it would offer modellers an alternative to what else is out there.
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Would sonic signals not give a problem with low bandwidth, data transfer would be rather slow giving slow response to the control signal.
Jim
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HI Andy
If you was to make the boards you would need to make 20 at a time to make it worth while doing, i could have the boards made and have them built with all the smd components on and all i would do is program the pic.
The problem i cold see for people trying to make it for them self's because it is smd components i don't think alot of people would be able to make it, the size of the board is quite small power fets just soldered to the pcb the fets don't even need heatsinks on them. I did speak to Engel on the phone and told him i was scrapping the tmax board and i had made my own he did say they had a go at fet switching but had problems with it, he did say that he would like to see what i have done with my board.
There is alsorts of bits i can do but if there is not enough of a market for it there is not much point in making it.
All the best John
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HI Jim
You asked about low bandwidth if you was sending out a low frequency carrier and you was trying to amplitude modulate it or phase shift it then it would get slow at sending data and response time on servos would be slow but saying that it wouldn't matter so much if the response time of a servo in a sub slowed down because a sub travels slow if we was flying a model plane then yes it would matter.
But i will not be using AM or FM when using the sonic link this might not work yet but i am just doing this for myself to see if it can be done, if you look at some of the new fish finders they are using 120kHz or so and they get quite a bit of information on the screen as i have got one in my big sub, you can even see the bushes on the bottom of the lake and fish under the sub and the contour of the lake bed and it was 90ft deep where i used to sail. Thanks for coming back Jim
All the best Sub John
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John,
Sent a pm.
Peace,
Tom
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Hi Sub John,
This site has some interesting info but looks like the max range for their sensors is 10m
https://www.maxbotix.com/Ultrasonic_Sensors.htm (https://www.maxbotix.com/Ultrasonic_Sensors.htm)
Using an I2C‑MaxSonar with an Arduino - https://www.maxbotix.com/articles/095.htm (https://www.maxbotix.com/articles/095.htm)
This also looks interesting ( Fish Hunter 3D ) 3D floating sensor which sends data back to you via WiFi - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8SzrqgIteU
C-3PO
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1206 smd components are workable with a small iron, below that things get rather tricky for smaller components like resistors. Twenty boards wouldn’t be too hard to shift, any idea what sort of figure would we be looking at. One board per tank rather than a twin tank board would be easier to pitch I think, as that can include owners of boats with a single tank. Ron Perrott expressed an interest in a transistorised board for his twin tank module set-up. At present owners use wither micro switches to Action relay switchers to work the tanks. Ron switches the low side only, I believe to avoid plating up the micro switch located in the wet.
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I'd be very intrest in such a control board. Does it require the linear potentiometer the tmax tanks from engel have?
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HI C-3PO
Thanks for links for sensors the range of 10m is not alot, with the arduino mega that i have been playing around with for the radar i have been looking at some of the 10ghz motion detectors which are of course proper radar how good are you with arduino code hint hint thanks again
All the best Sub John
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How much do you reckon you would want for twenty boards?
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Hi Sub John,
Not sure about 10ghz - although I did make some 10ghz transceivers years ago - I seem to remember it using Coleman's Mustard tins as waveguides.
I believe that the US Navy uses 76hz for their underwater comms
Maybe hitting eBay for some used kit might be a good place - something like this
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SEAFARER-3-DEPTH-ECHO-SOUNDER-FISH-FINDER-boxed-with-leaflet/113307266000?hash=item1a61a3abd0:g:l0gAAOSwdrhbwEpj:rk:4:pf:0 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SEAFARER-3-DEPTH-ECHO-SOUNDER-FISH-FINDER-boxed-with-leaflet/113307266000?hash=item1a61a3abd0:g:l0gAAOSwdrhbwEpj:rk:4:pf:0)
C-3PO
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HI Tom
Thanks for interest in piston control board, yes it does have a linear potentiometer the ones that are on mine are the engel pots but you do not have to use them you can use anything. There is a company out there that can make i think it's up to a meter long and any size in between if you wonted to you could make the hole length of the piston tank fully proportional if that is won't to do but to be honest it's not worth it, mine just works on the last 20 percent of the fill of the tank and i mean it's proportional and works very very fast which it has to work fast for it to be-able to put the sub in to a hover, working off the software
All the best John
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HI Andy
Fine on thinking 20 boards wound be to hard to shift trouble is one off boards will get to expensive as you wound need to buy power mosfets in large amounts to keep the cost down and the same for the PCB'S.
Each piston tank has it's own board the circuit for this would work on any piston tank as long as it's got a normal brushed motor i stopped away from brushless, one of the main reasons is you have to stop it before you can go the other way so it was easier to use normal motor which was already on the engel tank, so no point in reworking the wheel.
Fine on Ron Perrot using relays and micro switches don't like the idea of micro switches stuck in the water what ever you do it will corride surprised he didn't go for hall effect switches but then again they like to keep it simple so it is easy to change a micro switch. But saying that Andy I'm still using the micro switches on the engel tanks but they are only taking a few ma because they are only seeing logic from the pic but they are not in the water. Was going to fit hall effect switches but it didn't seem worth while
John
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Must have misread my post- I said wouldn't be hard to shift. However it does depend on price, if you can give a rough estimate I can pitch it at a few people and see if they show interest- nothing ventured, nothing gained.
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HI Andy
Sorry about misreading post, haven't even thought about pricing it up will have to work it out and get back to you
All the best John
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HI C-3PO
Fine on not sure about 10 ghz if you look on the net and look for HB100 think it's radar motion detector which is on 10ghz you could easily mode this to transmit video the unit is not very big, what the plan is for this HB100 unit instead of using sonic heads on 40khz use this instead HB100 unit has a IF out put i know some sneaky way to get this to transmit a 40khz burst. The software for the radar screen would have to see in the software the speed of radio waves instead of the speed of sound. You could fit this HB100 unit in the conning tower of this big sub of mine have it scanning from left to right and transmitting back real radar using RF instead of light or sonic link that way the RF would even work transmitting through the conning tower and sending images back, in side of the HB100 is a puck resonator which is the sole job of keeping it locked on to 10.5ghz but if you know what you are doing you can get it to do other things. Because i have worked in micro wave electronics it helps
All the best Sub John
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I would like to wish every one Merry Christmas and a Happy new year
all the best sub john
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Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you!
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HI Guys
Just thought i would give a up date on what I'm up to at the moment, the radar that i have been playing around with to go in the big sub i have got the transmitting side working for sending the data back to the bank side so you can see it on the PC or laptop it is transmitting back on 915mhz but from what i can make out you are only allowed 25mw-erp which is not allot but on 918mhz it is 100mw-erp, which is quite good but of course it will only work on top of the water when the sub is surfaced but the plan is to send the data back on low frequency for the sonar to work when submerged. Im all so playing around with some software called mission planner used for drones and so on of course way points can be set because i am using transceivers on 915mhz i can send data to the sub or back from it. I have got to finish off the radar 10ghz head but hopefully will get it finished soon , the sub is fitted with a fish finder which is sending back data at the moment there is so many different bands on the sub now for radio it is all getting quite complicated
All the best Sub John
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HI every body
On last up date i said that i was doing radar for the sub but i came up with a big problem, processing 2 software which i was using for the radar screen worked fine on PC but when it came to putting it on to a laptop it just would not work, i have spent hours trying to find out what the problem was in the end i thought i would give it a brake and go back to it at a later date. But i then found out that other people was having the same problem running it on a laptop and could not get it to work. But in the end i found out what the problem was it basically was the laptop screen would not go into the right size stopping the software running, of course i ended up having to change some of the code so it now auto sizes itself and it runs fine. But as things work you end up doing other things as well i have been making a DC variable load which can run up to 100amps which gave me some thing to think about of course with this i can test polylithium cells and lots of other things as well with full digital read out for amps and volts. But of course this thing does generate allot of heat when running i can use it as a electric fire when I'm cold in the winter
Somebody ended up braking one of the oleken guns off on the conning tower i must say a big thanks to Micheal Mcguinn for making me a new gun, the oleken gun that was on the back of the conning tower has now been changed to a boffos gun which is what it should be and it has made it look allot better
I have just also fitted it the big sub digital read out for the pressure in the main air tanks so i can set it from any where from 30psi to 140psi if need be this is allot stable than mark one , and this has to tell the compressor when to stop, the compressor in the sub would other wise if need be would run the tanks up to 400psi which would not be very safe for pipe work and valves.
Hope you are all keeping away from covid19 stay safe sub John
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John,
It is good to hear you are alive and I pray doing well. Most of what you typed went over my head, but I do like hearing about people pushing the edge of technology especially for our hobby.
Please stay safe and keep posting your updates.
Peace,
Tom
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HI Guys
About 4 weeks ago somebody i know wanted to see the submarine he had seen it down charnwood waters where i used to sail it but had not seen it close up, because i new he was coming round to see it i set up some of the units one of them being the telemetry unit which sends back data showing pressure in main air tanks, battery voltages rpm of props, amps being used and temps plus other bits this was all done using CMOS chips 30 years ago, no processors was used where this is all going when i tried it before the guy came around it worked fine but when he got hear tried it again it would not work. The RF and TX unit had failed could not repair it has it had been covered in a varnish that i could not even get off with acetone this has turned out to be a night mare, tried to replace the units with the new RX TX units that are out there but could not get these to work as the new units are looking for board rate say 4800 and 1 bit stops but the problem is the data i send doesn't work like this. So i had to find a TX RX unit that sends just raw serial data ended up finding a company called digikey that had got what i needed this went on for 4 weeks trying to get it back together and working. I could of designed a TX RX unit but they needed to be small to get back into the units, i could of updated the hole lot but i wonted to leave it as it was when i first made it.
The misses found on eBay a video camera colour and believe it or not the size of the camera is only 5mm square with leans so i ordered one when it arrived of course i had to try it and could not believe just how good the picture was, and for £23 pounds i had to have it . The plan is i won't to get it to look up the periscope i think it's time to now put the torpedo's in. I keep working on more electronics to go it i think where it will end up going the sub will be that heavy with electronics it will sink and never come up again because of the weight.
Stay safe Sub John
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Sorry for the RX/TX issue, but good to see you still plugging away. Would enjoy more pictures if you got them!
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HI Tom
The guy that came around to see the submarine said you should take it to shows but i said it's so much trouble to take it out being so big but what I'm hoping to get onto is this 5mm square video camera that i have got. Quite a while ago i did a low frequency video link for under water will have to start putting all this RF tat in to the sub its a good job it runs on big battries 24v at 72amps so should keep it running for a while. You said about putting some pictures up will have to try and do this so you can see the new guns which was made for it by Micheal Mcguinn i think he did a very good job it has made it look alot better.
Thanks for reply John
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HI Guys
some of the new electroincs that was designed for the Engel Gato has been a testing ground to see how reliable it would be, so what i have just been designing for the big Gato is a self levelling system and what this will do, say you was to fire a torpedo out of the front of the sub if the torpedo was positively buoyant what would happen is the front of the sub would go down but the system i have done will compensation by levelling the sub by moving grams of water. Its all solid state electronic no relays and i hate this word Micro switches, the system has only got 1 trim tank a pump for in and out of the water to the trim tank. When circuit was tested on the bench you could place a couple of grams of weight on the unit and it would compansate for it, all i can say is i think it,s time to put the torpedos in
Sub John
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HI Guys
Don't know weather you will find this interesting, the batterys in the big Gato are now about 6 years old they was starting to show signs of not having the same amp hour as they where when they was new.What i have been playing around with is a thing called desolphastion what this process does is brake down the solpha on the plates of the battery, there is 3 types of these units that you can make 1 is inductive which is useing a coil and firing it into the battery runing at about 1khz but the trouble is with the first coil type the process can take quite a while to bring the battery back to its forma self. The 2nd is a resistive based circuit now you can speed the hole process up because you can fire the resistive circuit at a much higher frequency and speed the process up of desolpastion, and the 3rd circuit you fire a capacitor been charged to a high voltage in to the battery and over a time of 8 hours if you look at the plates inside the battery you can see the solpha braking away from the plates the solpha fulls to the bottom of the battery and is put back in to the battery acid. To give you some sort of idea tried the circuits out on 2 12v 24amp hour the batterys at start of tests was only showing just over 9amps but now after been desolphated the batterys are back to what they where when they was new, had writen the amp hour of the 2 batterys on the side so i new what they should be.
Also built DC variable load to test batterys with LCD screen and it will do up to 100amps and it does get hot at that currant so the end result is you can bring a battery back to life provided it has not got cracked plates or insurlaters. The batterys in the big Gato after playing around has come back to what they was as new battery fot the big sub would be £480 which gets expensive
Hope you find it interesting by desolphating old batterys you can double the life if not more but it comes down to how you do the desolphastion process
All the best Sub John
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Always great to see updates from you.
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Hi Salmon
Hope you did'nt find it to boring but it is quite interesting to bring batterys back to life, i can not see any reason why you can not make a battery last 20 years but its knowing how to go about it. Some of the ways take to long but you can do it in 8 hours
PS Merry Christmas Happy New Year John
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"Desulphation" ..... never heard of such a thing! :o
https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/impp-1105-battery-desulfators-fact-fiction/
https://youtu.be/IRHR9EaxSgE
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HI Martin
I know you said you have never heard of such a thing as desulphation most of the units you can buy on the market today if the battery is badly sulphated it can take weeks if not months to desulphate it, with some of the units you can buy i think that is why alot of people say the units don't work. But with the latest one im doing it can bring a really bad sulphated battery back to a very good reasonable state after 8 hours. One of the worst things to do with a lead acid battery is to discharge it well down and leave it standing for a few weeks and don't charge it, this is when sulphation really starts to take hold after i discharge a lead acid battery i always charge it stright away.
Martin can you remember the early battery chargers for cars they had the amp meter in the front, because they only had a transformer and a full bridge rectifier and a amp meter that was a crud form of desulphation but would take a long time the other problem was with these chargers some of them can charge over 15v and leaving a battery say a gel type lead acid battery would turn the gel in the battery back to crystals but that can be solved buy putting distiled water back into the battery.
The software charger that i built for the big gato it changes how it charges the battery between summer and winter, because of the tempeture of the battery it does make a differance
PS Have a nice Christmas and a happy new year John and pauline
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If memory serves me correctly, don't count on it, but I seem to recall that lead acid batteries could be desulphated by a relatively short high current charge being put into them. essentially is shocked the sulphur off the plates. That said, I don't believe that approach can be applied to SLA batteries because it would boil the acid out of the battery and could not be replaced, where as the old lead acids could and often did need, water added to the cells to replace what had been lost. I can't say that I ever attempted this technique, not successfully anyhow, but I least a did not blow up a battery, which IS a serious potential result.
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HI Akira
Thanks for reply yes the basic idea is to fire a high energy pulse but like i said some of the differant methods of going about the problem works better than others. Part of the process is in taking the battery down in voltage why you go about desulphated the battery but it should cut out around about 10.5v and then go back in to charging the battery.
Yes you can desulphate SLA batterys as i call them gel type but you are right in you can boil them dry, i have just done 2 SLA batterys and they have come back as near as dam it to new but what you can do to gel types with a thin blade brake the top part away it is only held on with little plastic tags and brake away quite easy that will leave you with like little cups made of rubber if you pull these off you can get into the cells and put distilled water back with a syringe on say a 12v 24amph i normally put about 20mill of water back in on each cell, it does seem to work for me and of course you can put the rubber cups back on and glue the tags back into place job done. But im not saying people should have a go at this because it can be dangerous you have to be carefull with gases venting off the battery
PS NICE TO HEAR FROM YOU AKIRA HAVE A GOOD CHRISTMAS AND A Happy New Year jOHN
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Right you are John. That said, I'll stick with the KISS method and play it safe. The last thing I need is a battery leaking acid inside a model. UGH!!!. SLA's are pretty cheap now so I'll just replace them as need be. If I keep them serviced, they do last a long time.Happy Holidays to you and all the Model Mayhem'ers.Jonathan
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Sub John's Project in progress
This is the view above water - underwater version to follow...
https://youtu.be/gNjwUOYkdYE (https://youtu.be/gNjwUOYkdYE)
(https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/02/11/2022-02-11_13-38-18.png)
https://youtu.be/gNjwUOYkdYE (https://youtu.be/gNjwUOYkdYE)
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HI Jonathan
Radar screen looks good will look good when it is in the sub, transmitting data back to the bankside so you can see the radar screen what the sub is looking at on the water. Its interesting to see all this working useing lidar makes it easier when i could get hold of water proof unit
Thanks for your help on doing codeing and processing screen i would not have got as far as this with out your help so thank you. Like we have talked about it comes down to time of flight useing RF for radar sensor trying to use RF at close distance is the main problem because of this thing called time of fight. But lidar time of flight is done for you interesting stuff
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Wow, just wow, this build is absolutely on another level.
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HI Tworrs
Thanks for interested in sub, have a look on youtube type in videos of 12ft gato submarine and you will find some more bits on there
All the best John
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John - Stumbled across these images of your 12 footer on the net
Absolutely awesome....
(https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/04/28/SubJohn_001.jpg) (https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/image/fgwkG)
(https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/04/28/SubJohn_002.jpg) (https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/image/fgYeR)
(https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/04/28/SunJohn_003.jpg) (https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/image/fgSh1)
Regards
C-3PO
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HI Tworrs
Thanks for interested in sub, have a look on youtube type in videos of 12ft gato submarine and you will find some more bits on there
All the best John
Thank you John, I had already done so, and again WOW.
ATB
Garry
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HI Jonathan
Thanks for putting pictures up it does look good, but for some reason i can not post pictures on mayhem any more which starts to be a pain in the back end
Catch you soon John
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Images posted on behalf of sub john
Evaluating Sub based LIDAR hardware, LIDAR data transmitted to shore to allow shore based viewing...
(https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/05/15/20220514_183704.jpg)
(https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/image/fFyQv)(https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/05/15/20220514_183750.jpg) (https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/image/fF6Nf)
(https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/05/15/20220514_183923_001.jpg) (https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/image/fFLO4)
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This is amazing. I see this and cannot fathom the wisdom needed to build a working LiDAR system or any form of radar for our subs. This is so far beyond me it becomes magic and pixie dust.
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Images posted on behalf of sub john
A few more pics of the sub
(https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/05/15/36388703_2224209231142422_1782168431475294208_n.jpg)
(https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/05/15/36410897_2224208591142486_4181426197692940288_n.jpg)
(https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/05/15/36460259_2224210041142341_1346211139054206976_n.jpg)
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HI Jonathan
Thanks for putting up pictures of lidar radar it will be interesting to see how it all pans out. Can you remember that water proof sensor what they had been using for bait boats i saw a video on you tube the sensor has got a pizo sensor in it and it is water proof and will work under water, on the video they took one apart it was interesting to see what was inside, i know i said that i had reworked drive circuit for pizo sensor so with what i have done i can not see why we can not use it for under water sonar. Because of the reworking i did should beable to get more distance under water it all comes down to drive voltage
Catch you soon John
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Hi Salmon
Glad you find it interesting i think i have just about got Jonathan pulling his hair out
Catch you soon John
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Found this picture of sub john's 12 foot Gato sub - it shows the scale of the scratch build now 30 odd years old...
What is doesn't show is the amazing "whistles, bells and kitchen sink" that are contained inside.
sub john is currently working on a sonar | lidar | radar project - one of them hopefully will work if not all three...
(https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2022/05/15/image010.jpg)
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HI Jonathan
Just a bit of a up date on the sonar, have got the sonar head to work under water in the bath sending back distance to LCD screen. People have said that you cannot get it to work in a bath or a tub of water but it can be done it does work but what a pain in the neck it has been. Car parking sensor board that i have used is AJ-SRO4M only had to add 1 componant to the board to get it to work but once moded the board will not work in air but it now works in water which is what i won't for the sonar i can now see the light at the end of the tunnel
All the best John
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Cool stuff. Very cool stuff.
8)
But mostly ...
I'm thinking ...
Imagine the rubber band you could put in that thing and the winder you'd need for it ... :} ;)
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HI Scott
I think you would need a very big rubber band to power this
Glad you liked it John
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HI GUYS
Just a bit of a up date, just fitted in to periscope a very small video camera colour but must confess doing this i wrote off 4 cameras being only 5mm square and having big hands
and trying to make it look like a periscope it's not easy, and having to make it water proof made it even harder. Plus the other periscope was turned it to antenner for sending back video picture
so i now have 2 video links, video transmitter is in the bottom of the periscope shear but when you see the picture coming back through the periscope it makes it all worth while doing it
Sorry to say i cannot post any pictures as i can not post pictures on mayhem
All the best John
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but must confess doing this i wrote off 4 cameras being only 5mm square and having big hands
Aww man! But cool end result.
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Cracking model John.
I’ve just picked up an Engel Gato and started stripping it down
Major re work ahead planning on using a cylinder,
Retaining the piston tanks and changing the taes system to the unipro 12V
unless you have plans to start selling control boards…
I’ve been reading through your Engel thread, very helpful indeed I was curious as to were you managed to get the
Weld line plan? I did see someone use the revell Gato and scale up from there but surely there is a cheaper alternative?
One thing that’s trashed is the rear hydroplane control arm/lever would you have any thoughts on a solid option for fixing this?
Thanks
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HI Scott
yes it is a cool result its been switched on all afternoon in the garden with the periscopes tranmitting video upstairs in my work shop, another bit of old tat up and working seems to work well
All the best John
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HI 16-21
Fine on picking up Engel Gato they do make a nice sub, just from my point of view
i would stick to the box area that comes with the kit meaning wear the hatches are the sub will end up more stable than useing a tube
but some do like to use the tube each to there own i did'nt use a tube in the big gato and would'nt like to have used one
Regaurding drive boards for piston tanks have thought about making them but don't know if there is a big enough market,
i have used these for about 5 years in small Gato and have never had to do anything to it so as a working unit it' been well tested
sub and would not be a problem to make. They are solid state and dare i say no relays i hate the things
In small Engel Gato i used for linkages sullivan GOLD-N-ROD these are control rods for model planes and are semiflexible and you
can work them around bits in the sub to go where you won't and you don't have to worry about them shorting on any thing because
they are made of plastic it there good enough for a plane they are good enough for a model submarine.
Thanks for interest all the best John
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I’d say any release of solid state drive boards for Engel/piston tanks would have to be done from a spirit of altruism, as the potential market is small and probably shrinking year on year.
I’m aware that making boards in order to make any money requires purchase of components at scale. Perhaps a compromise would be to use a readymade H bridge, leaving just the microcontroller and firmware as the bespoke items. Or perhaps just offer a pre-programmed microcontroller which could be inserted into a diy pcb or a circuit built up on stripboard.
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Spot the camera
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Hi Tim
Thanks for posting picture, will give you a ring in a bit John
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HI Subculture
Because the market is so small for model submarines that's why i have stayed away from making bits and bobs i just don't think it would be worth it. And making small numbers of boards it would not be worth it,it would not be worth programming pics for people to make there own board. And like i have said before i would not give the circuit diagram away for people to make. The H-bridge that is on the board for the tank control board was designed for the job and plus it now works off in-fa red cut outs for the end stops for the tanks to take the place of micro switches. I think most people would find it hard for people to make as the unit is all surface mounted components.
John
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HI ALL
Have been working on fet speed controller useing arduino -IBT-2 which is a H bridge fet drive module, have had this running on the bench at 24amps for about 1 hour connected up to software on a pic. You will beable to have from center stick to full forward and full reverse at 100%, it will learn center stick and learn what is full reverse and forward and store it in eprom memory untill you decide to change it again. It will beable to do a max volts i think is 42 volts but will do alot more than 24 amps has got over heat shut down for the H bridge under voltage shut down, so you can not blow the fets on the H bridge.
The IBT-2 ARDUINO on the board that you buy does'nt get rid of heat from the fets to the heat sink very well would beable to use this for driving piston tanks and alsorts of things including driving a pizo sensor for driving link under water useing sonar will have to see where it goes. I am working on sonar now for controlling the sub it does get interesting
All the best Sub John
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Hi John,
Hope all well with you....
Sounds like you have been busy pushing forward with your developments.
Some of the detail goes over my head - interested in what you are doing with sonar...
Have you got something actually working with Sonar underwater? Are you using a fishfinder or something?
Regards
C-3PO
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HI Jonathan
Seem to be getting over the dreaded covid hope things have been ok with you and the wife. Quite a while ago i did buy some high powered 40khz pizo sensors just to build sonic link to control the big sub under water, beauty about useing sonic at say 40 khz it will work in salt water some of the sonic heads in company built fish finders the sonic head can be at around close to 200v. I am on doing building blocks at the moment to get it all to work but i won't to make the TX side of it to be crystal locked so it won't drift off frequency, not making it from fishfinder all been done from scratch built will have to see how it turns out trouble is alot of this stuff takes time to do when doing it from scratch. How have you been getting on with your 27mhz link hope its going well
Thanks for reply John
PS catch you soon
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Hi all
Sorry to say but i lost my monitor reptile lost him to cancer and had to have him put to sleep very sad so it had put me off doing any thing for a while but i have been playing about with sonar for under water. Working the same as digital proportional radio control but only for under water this means no matter what water you put this in weather it be fresh water or salt water it will work and you will be-able to control the sub as if it was on 40mhz. The symptom will be-able to if need be knack out 60 watts from the TX transducer its well on the way to a working system, have had it transmitting code in the work shop using 40khz, Unit does not use software it is all done using cmos chips and up amps
This will open up a hole new way of controlling your sub
All the best Sub John
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I am so sorry to hear about your loss. My condolences.
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I don't understand reptiles as pets .... but we all understand loosing of a good friend.
.... Sorry for you loss :((
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HI Martin and salmon
Thanks for the condolences, it cost altogether about £10.500 and still ended up losing him like i said it was so sad to see him end up like that
But could not see him suffer
Thanks again John