Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Steam => Topic started by: SailorGreg on August 15, 2012, 04:16:33 pm
-
The recent thread on the TRV build prompts me to ask a few questions, as I have one of these kits on its way. Not wanting to hijack that thread, I thought it best to start afresh. I have never built a steam plant (other than the little one for the Midwest Fantail Launch, some years ago) so a lot of these questions are pretty basic stuff, and I am sure are answered somewhere in the bowels of Mayhem's archives - but I couldn't find them!
I plan to get a Maccsteam 3.5" boiler once the piggy bank has recovered. I have also identified sources for the gas tank, the separator, the lubricator, a water pump and a steam attenuator, along with the pipes and connectors. But where can I get a steam throttle valve? Or have I just missed a website somewhere?
Should I buy copper or brass tubing for the connections, or doesn't it matter?
Should I try and standardise on 1/8" or 5/32" tubing or should I just get a selection of sizes depending on the application/fitting?
Where can I get a small piece of mineral wool (or something) to lag the boiler under the cladding?
Will a chef's blow torch be OK for silver soldering - it's just there's one I found in the kitchen, so I wouldn't have to get one specially for that.... :-))
I am thinking of painting some parts (cross head guides, cylinder mounting plate, baseplate perhaps?) - will Humbrol enamel or similar be OK - is that paint suitable for bare metal and the heat?
Is there any big advantage to using disposable gas canisters rather than filling a purpose-built gas tank? The disposables lose out on appearance, they are probably bigger than a custom tank, but is the filling process difficult/dangerous/messy? I know filling a gas lighter from a refill often results in spluttering and overspill - is it the same with a gas tank?
Are there anywhere a set of instructions for designing and operating a steam plant of this sort? I understand the principles but I am in Donald Rumsfeld mode at the moment - I suspect there are lots of unknown unknowns! I have just discovered that there is a club very local to me that runs steam models, so perhaps a visit there is called for.
The kit is coming via a circuitous route so I won't have it until the end of September, so I am in no rush. My plan is to build the steam plant then consider a hull to fit it into once I know it all works and how big/heavy it is. I guess I'll probably go for one of the open launch types in the 40" - 45" range, but we'll see.
Thanks for being patient!
Greg
-
Oops, sorry - that's TVR1A of course. :embarrassed:
But you all knew what I meant didn't you!
-
Its a nice slide valve engine takes some care to put together due to the small size of the bolts.
Timing takes some care especially if you do not read the instructions.
Taking it along to the local club with model steamers would be a good idea.
-
I insulated my Macsteam 3.5" with this: "Silica fabric" insulates to 1800* part # 8827K15
http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/118/3510/=iv4owd
I should have enough left to do another. It is 6" wide which is the same length as the Macsteam boiler so no cutting there. It's yours if I can find it and you want to pay the postage!
I can post a pic of how mine turned out if you'd like to see it.
-
Good morning Greg. A 5/32 pipe nipple fits over the inlet and exhausts nicely, your chef,s torch should be ok for pipe fittings, as they are only small, just be carefull you dont melt the silver soldered joints that are already there. You will find that the fittings will be in brass and the tubing should be copper. Maccsteam do a range of gas tanks at very reasonable prices ( about the cheapest I have found), I have included some links where you will find everything you need. as far as a boat for your engine go's you cant go wrong with a hull from Kingston Mouldings, the quality of their products is second to none, or if it is a kit you are after, Krick do 3 kits, all of excellent quality. For boiler lagging, try Bruce engineering, model engineering suppliers, or GLR distributors. I got my regulator from the 21st Century Steam Company. He has regulators in stock, I got one last week but cant find his email, you could contact him via his ebay shop.
Hope this helps,
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-)) :-))
http://www.steamfittings.co.uk/asp/index.asp
http://www.pollymodelengineering.co.uk/sections/bruce-engineering/index.asp
http://www.cupalloys.co.uk/
http://www.kingstonmouldings.com/home.htm
http://www.clevedonsteam.co.uk/
http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/krick_steam_launches.html
http://myworld.ebay.co.uk/21st-century.steam.company/
-
Further to that I have just had a couple of steam regulator valves sent to me from 21st Century Steam after seeing them in Chandlery section of Model Boats a few months ago. The are ideal for what you want and the service was great, arrived in New Zealand in less than a week. They do not have a website yet other than the Ebay page but you can contact them direct at steam.engine.com@hotmail.com if you do not want to go through Ebay. I have attached a photo I hope. Also endorse what Nick says about the Kingston hulls, I have had several now and all have been top quality. I am sure you will manage the engine without any problems, just read the instructions in separate sections several times over. I have persuaded several friends to buy these engines and we are still friends! Dont forget we want to see postings about the assembly job and the boat build. Cheers, Ian.
-
Strongly reccomend CUP alloys Silver Solder/Flux in a syringe for small jobs. Handy for larger ones too.
Regards Ian.
-
Thanks everyone, I feel more confident already :-)
@ muleears - thanks for the offer - PM on its way shortly (I know you're in VA but so's my engine!) - and a picture of your boiler and engine would, I am sure, be of interest to everyone.
@ kiwimodeller - I'll certainly post when I get going. I plan to do the steam plant over the winter and then think about the boat for it in the spring. Kingston Mouldings are on my short list for a hull, and I plan to do a freelance open launch on whatever hull I get. Lots of ideas on that from the builds on Mayhem, Bernhard's Youtube clips and elsewhere - spoilt for choice!
Greg
-
Hi Greg,
I've got a TVR1A in my Lady S.
Works a treat, :-)) the boat is 900mm long, sailing weight is about 9kg, top speed is way over scale, so I trrottle back and get about 15min steaming time.
I had a thread (pre Melt Down) called, from memory "it works" under my old user name of MichaelK
I used 5/32 copper tubing all the way, that way you don't get confused! %%
I use a refilllabe gas bottle, take it out of the boat and carefully fill it. I never have any problems. Just make sure it is up to ambient temp before you light the boiler.
The instructions that I used came form this forum, :-)) club members (JOIN A CLUB!!!) :-)) and the School of Hard Knox! {:-{(and I'm still learnig, every time I take her for a sail!!)
Best of luck, I'm sure you will have lots of fun building your boat.
Mick
-
Thread renamed
-
Thanks Martin - at least we're calling the engine by its proper name now!
Well, I got my TVR1ABB (and boiler and stuff from Maccsteam, of which more later) and have started assembly. One thing I should say straight away is that I don't plan a blow-by-blow account of putting the engine together - I am simply following the instructions, and you can see the comprehensive illustrated instruction booklet here http://www.grahamind.com/downloads.html. I plan to describe any changes I make and the lessons I learn along the way - and probably ask quite a few questions as well!
Having spent an inordinate amount of time browsing TVR builds on this and other forums, I knew there were a few mods I wanted to make. I wanted to paint some parts of the engine, and I also wanted to cut down the cylinder mounting plate as others have done for a sleeker appearance. But first off I had to make sure I didn't lose all those tiny screws (although having ordered the hex head set as well, at least I had a reserve in case of emergency). I found ice cube trays to be ideal when sorting the screws and gathering the parts for each section of the build.
(http://s11.postimage.org/pv44evw73/ice_cube_trays_1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/pv44evw73/)
I also worried a lot about what paint to use, and in the end I bought some high temperature spray paint from e-bay (this - http://tinyurl.com/8zfpgx3) and below are the painted parts. I decided I would leave most of the brass bits alone and polish those, and painting the cylinder mount, which I considered, seemed tricky as you have to lap the surface of this to seat the cylinders. So the bits in the picture are all I painted on the engine.
(http://s12.postimage.org/8hk6p9sd5/painted_bits_1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/8hk6p9sd5/)
Not too sure about this - I expected a gloss finish but it is thoroughly matt and rather rough. Do I need to bake it to turn it into a glossy finish, or am I stuck with this? Anyway, I have carried on with the build, but am not so far advanced that I can't go back, take off the paint and do it again. Acetone is my friend!
I mentioned the cylinder mount mod. I don't have any real metalworking kit, although I do have a pillar drill. The picture below shows the finished mounting plate. (For those unfamiliar with this, it is provided as a simple rectangle - I have removed the pieces between the mounting holes.) I drilled each corner with a 4mm drill then chain drilled along the line between them. I used the aluminium strip screwed to a piece of wood to ensure all the holes were aligned, and I bought a centre drill specially to make sure the drill didn't wander. Then I filed the edges flat and used fine wet-and-dry to put a good finish on the edges.
(http://s15.postimage.org/jlo74z92f/mount_mod_1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/jlo74z92f/)
A comment that crops up a fair bit in other builds is the issue of filing the small bushes in the reversing linkage flat with the component they are installed in. I guess that if you file the bush completely flush then there can be some binding between the head of the fixing screw and the moving piece. I didn't actually use a file, rather I used a piece of 800 wet and dry and stopped rubbing as soon as there was any sign of abrasion on the component itself. I am happy to say all my bushed pieces move smoothly without any slop. And as others have mentioned as well, the parts all fit so well that actually building the engine seems to take no time at all.
(http://s9.postimage.org/cnkg7nfsr/columns_in_1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/cnkg7nfsr/)
Well, so far so good. I'm happy to hear any views on the paint - even if it means taking the thing apart and doing it all over again {:-{
Greg
-
Just re-read my post and realised I lied to you all - as well as the bits shown, I painted the crankshaft as well, as you can see from the last picture posted above. I'll try and do better in future! :embarrassed:
Actually, masking off the bearing surfaces on the crankshaft for the connecting rods was about the fiddliest thing I've had to do so far.
Greg
-
For painting the engine I used two thin coats of etch primer and a radiator type paint. Before painting I assembled the engine without crankshaft, bearings, valve and reversing gear. I used the supplied screws. Any where I didn't want paint I painted with Vaseline and scraped it off after. I baked the whole lot in the oven at 150C for twenty minutes. I did it when the wife was out cos it don't half pong. Ends up silk finish and rock hard. I can't tell you the brands cos I bought the paint in bunnings in oz. whatever, it's still looking good after a full season. If you haven't seen it already have a look at my thread in steam called Steam Launch Wear. The plant in it is more or less the same as yours. Finally I stripped it down again using a scalpel at any joins then built the engine as new but using the hex brass screws unpainted.
When you search for my thread it says it was started by gregk9 but that's a mistake brought on by the great meltdown.
Jerry.
ps. If you put the screws in ice cube maker make sure you stick it down first! Or you lose the lot. I put a large white sheet on the floor under and around me and the table cos I just knew I'd drop a few. I did and it worked but at the end I found a load unused. He sends you more than you need.
-
Thanks Jerry. Yes, I have followed your S/L Wear thread for some time (under all your pseudonyms!). A great inspiration to me. I did wonder what paint you used as that light colour looked like it might show heat damage quite easily - but obviously it worked fine. I'll have to think about what I do next. (Our oven is gas - I think that might not mix too well with paint solvent? Could be a recipe for a new oven not to mention a severe ear bending >>:-()
I take great care with my ice cube tray. We have two cats, so it lives on top of a cupboard when I'm not actually taking something from it - haven't lost anything - yet!
Thanks again for the advice.
Greg
-
Hi Greg, being a lazy type of person, I emptied the bag of bolts into a backky tin and picked them out with a pair of tweezers, and surprisingly enough, did not loose one. I did, however loose the tiny allen key used for the eccentrics, searched for hours and finally found it in one of my slippers. as for painting, 2 coats of etch primer followed by 3 coats of Humbrol enamel. Only time will tell if I made the right decision.
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))
-
Most of the High temp paints are matt finish. I have been having the same issue trying to find a good high temp gloss paint for the boiler of My traction engine
-
Nice, I like the blue parts and the fact that you modded the cylinder base.
-
Thanks for the comments and advice. I really wasn't happy with that paint, so it was out with the acetone and off it came. It said on the can that no primer was needed, but even after drying for a few days, the paint rubbed off in many places. I'm now going to use etch primer and a gloss high temp paint (still going for blue). We'll see how that goes. I looked for radiator paint but it only comes in white, white or off-white. I am using that for the chimney though.
Anyway, the build has stalled a little as the repaint is done. Back soon.
Greg
-
Hi Greg, If you are thinking of fitting a boiler feed pump to your engine, here's one I fitted earlier....
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=39299.msg401610#new
Regards,
Nick.
-
essex2visuvesi says......
"Most of the High temp paints are matt finish. I have been having the same issue trying to find a good high temp gloss paint for the boiler of My traction engine""
VHT market a range of high temperature gloss enamels......marketed world wide.....
Similar to as previously mentioned.....bake @ 200 degrees F to improve hardness & chemical resistance......Derek
-
essex2visuvesi says......
"Most of the High temp paints are matt finish. I have been having the same issue trying to find a good high temp gloss paint for the boiler of My traction engine""
VHT market a range of high temperature gloss enamels......marketed world wide.....
Similar to as previously mentioned.....bake @ 200 degrees F to improve hardness & chemical resistance......Derek
You star!
Thanks for that.... will get some ordered... they do metallics too :)
-
(http://s18.postimage.org/8bkwwq09x/PA260004.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/8bkwwq09x/)
This is the primer I used on my engine and boiler. I got it from Bunnings in Wodonga. I'm sorry but I didn't get a pic of the topcoat but it was from the same place if not the same brand. I recall that I had problems getting what I wanted. I found almost that we were speaking a different language when it came to paint. Same went for white spirit. It's called something else down under but a quick look on tinterweb proved it to be the same as ours. I recall also that the topcoat was good for 150C. I tested on a piece of metal and it dried soft so baked it as previously stated and it did the job. The finish was silk. It is now nicely stained and streaked by the rust coming out of the inside of the outer funnel and dye from the mahogany lagging. That won't come off either!!I have also just realised that I painted the engine in Oz but painted the boiler in the UK. How did I get the paint home %)
Jerry.
-
;D ....& Jerry says ''I found almost that we were speaking a different language when it came to paint. Same went for white spirit. It's called something else down under"
Could I offer that the language spoken in OZ is the same...its just that the words are upside down........could the spirit have been termed as methylated?....
Derek
-
Without hijacking the thread, I can't remember exactly Derek,
but it was confusion over white spirit, turpentine substitute and turpentine. There is incidentally also confusion over methylated spirit (meths) which also has different names in different places. Bunnings also sold a varnishing system where the stain and the varnish were not compatible as I found to my cost.
Jerry.
-
Well hopefully I've navigated through the various shoals of the new format forum (which is great by the way) and can now post the following (from Photobucket as advised by various helpful members). It shows my repainted bits and pieces (including my boiler, oil trap and gas tank). The blue is a bit darker than before and it's glossy! The paint I used is this - http://tinyurl.com/9c6p6kv - and I just have to find a method of baking it on that doesn't result in irreparable marital strife >>:-( <*<
I'm sure I'll come up with something! %)
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b596/Greggyp99/P1040289.jpg)
Now I'm back to where I was a few days ago. Next is putting the engine back together, shouldn't take too long, then on to the boiler and pipework.
Thanks to all for the comments and advice. Nick, I have a boiler feed pump already, albeit handraulically driven. I did contemplate an engine-driven one, but as this is my first real foray into steam I thought I'd keep it fairly simple to begin with. And I have no metal working facilities so reproducing George's fine piece of work is a bit beyond me at the moment. I do plan to try and leave space in my final layout for including an engine-driven pump and water tank, so that could be a future upgrade.
Right, where's those tiny brass screws?
Greg
-
Happy days! The TVR goes together without a hitch and I now have a complete engine. My only tiny gripe is that the hex head set doesn't include replacement screws for the connecting rods - you have to stick with the slot heads. But then you can hardly see the screws under the engine anyway, and when it's running you can't see them at all.
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b596/Greggyp99/completeengine.jpg)
Well, when I say it went without a hitch, there was a little one. Eagle-eyed readers will notice that the inlet manifold is fitted with slot-head screws (as is the exhaust). This is because I couldn't find a way of tightening the hex head screws because they are so close to the pipe -
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b596/Greggyp99/tightscrew2.jpg)
You can see that the flat of the head is up against the pipe. I couldn't get the supplied socket over the head, and although I could try needle-nose pliers the screw won't turn straight because the corners of the head won't pass the pipe without binding. Can anyone offer me a solution?
Apart from that little wrinkle, everything went fine, and I set the engine up on my little compressor, oiled everything twice and pressed the switch. The engine started immediately. :} :-)) I don't know why that surprised me, but it did, and I was a very happy man. The engine runs equally well in forward and reverse and has clocked up an hour or so of running so far.
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b596/Greggyp99/inaction.jpg)
I've started on the boiler cladding now and will post something on that next.
Chuffed to bits so far!! :} :}
-
Contrary to the thread title.......I suggest each TVR1A build is individual & we enjoy each build read O0
Your engine build looks fine Greg......... :-)) .....
Are you going to lag the steam inlet tubes?.....
Do not attack any brass component with the proprietary "Brasso" polish as it will dullen & eat into the blue enamel
In OZ we have a product called Metal Magic....... %) it is brilliant & does not dullen or eat into the enamel.......Derek
-
Very nice :)
Tempted to build one just for show
-
I had the same problem with the manifold bolts and reverted to the screws. Looks good all the same.....
-
We all have the same problem. Ignore it and use the screws. When you put the lagging on the manifolds, if you use my method of string, pollyfiller and masonry paint , put it all on before fixing manifolds in place keeping the screw area clear. You can then build up the area with thin layers of filler using a small paint brush and lose the screws altogether. She really looks stunning.
Jerry.
-
Made some progress on getting the boiler ready. I was given a piece of insulating fabric by muleears (thanks Cal) and I also got hold of some ceramic paper (that sounds like an oxymoron to me!) so I thought I would do a belt and braces job on the insulation. Cal's contribution (left over from his own Maccsteam 3.5" boiler) was exactly the right width for the boiler and only needed a small piece trimming off to fit perfectly. I followed the process described by logoman here http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=31545.msg311399#msg311399 so all the holes in both the soft stuff and the wood were cut with wad punches. I dipped the edges of the insulation in some wood dye so they wouldn't show up bright white, and fixed the first layer to the boiler with double sided tape
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b596/Greggyp99/Calsblanket.jpg)
I did the same with the ceramic paper -
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b596/Greggyp99/secondlayer.jpg)
although this was held in place with ordinary tape around the outside.
I prepared my wood strips from an offcut of sapele I have had around for ages. I sliced it up on my bandsaw then ran it through my homemade thickness sander to get all the slices to a consistent thickness. Here are the slices all sanded and ready for cutting up.
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b596/Greggyp99/P1040237.jpg)
I cut these to width on the bandsaw then sanded the edges to make them smooth and slightly bevelled. I did this by fixing a straight edge and a stop to a piece of kitchen worktop, then sanding the edges to give a slight bevel along the length.
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b596/Greggyp99/P1040243.jpg)
You can see I scribbled on what will be the inside face so I always knew which way the bevel had been cut. I then cut the strips to length, and followed logoman's instructions to put the cladding together. Here's the top section in place on the boiler (double sided tape again).
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b596/Greggyp99/halfclad.jpg)
and the whole boiler clad -
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b596/Greggyp99/fullyclad.jpg)
A couple of coats of thinned varnish and it's starting to look pretty good.
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b596/Greggyp99/varnishedcladding.jpg)
I need to attend to the ends - the strips are a bit long and don't all line up as I want - but I'm going to wait until I've got the bands in place before doing that. I need to confess I made a complete hash of my first attempt at the bands - one ended up wrapped round the drill chuck (I know, fix things down before drilling :embarrassed: ) and one got cut too short (I know, measure twice... :embarrassed: ). I am now waiting for some more banding to turn up to finish the boiler cladding off.
Ran the engine for a while today. It now has two hours on compressed air, so it should be ready for steam once I have something that can make it!
Really enjoying this :-)) :-)) :-))
Greg
-
Sorry - meant to say thanks to Jerry and Nick for their reassurance over the manifold screws - nice to know it's not just me! And I like your recipe for the pipe lagging Jerry, it certainly ends up looking neater and cleaner than some of the bare string you see around.
Anybody going to the Warwick show on the Friday? I plan to. (Sorry, hijacking my own thread %) )
Greg
-
The new banding for the boiler arrived, and I was a lot more careful cutting and drilling this time. Here is the result -
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b596/Greggyp99/cladboiler.jpg)
I also decided to take pettyofficernick's advice and ask George (ooyah2) to provide me with an engine driven pump. It arrived this morning, and looks just the job. Thanks George! :-)) :-)) (and thanks Nick for the recommendation)
For those who haven't seen Nick's thread on this pump (http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=39299.0), this is what George's pump looks like -
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b596/Greggyp99/Georgespump.jpg)
I am a little way away from putting it and all the other bits together into a working steam plant, but I plan to start that sometime next week (other things occupying me before then - including a trip to Leamington Spa on Friday). Guess I'll need to do some silver soldering practice soon. I haven't done any of that before - I've had one go at a nipple on the end of some pipe and it turned out OK but a bit messy, obviously I need to polish up my technique. O0 O0 There's lots of directions, tutorials and video guides around so I don't lack advice - just practical skill, and there's only one way to fix that!
Greg
-
That boiler's giving me a load of Déjà blue.
Jerry.
-
Hi Greg,
to fit the manifold with the brass hex screws, i filed a little off the manifold so the screws would turn without hitting the pipe, then use a very small spanner from a set I bought from Knupfer.
http://www.knupfershop.de/shop/wbc.php?sid=388c89ca2&tpl=produktdetail.html&pid=719&rid=42&recno=1
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3401/3573448152_456f422420_b.jpg)
-
Ha! The obvious solution! Thanks logoman, I'll have a go at that in a while. I do want to use the hex heads on the manifolds, so some minor surgery is on the cards. I'll polish up my German and get those spanners as well (I lived there for three years a long time ago, so you'd think I'd be able to remember my basic vocabulary :embarrassed: )
Lovely engine - have you run it on steam yet - it looks so clean! It's engines like yours that prompted me to try for more than just the basic build. Wonderful work and attention to detail.
Greg
-
I have started on my pipework but I now need to seek help from the collected wisdom of the forum. I bought one of RDG Tool's small displacement lubricators (see here - http://www.rdgtools.co.uk/acatalog/Models_and_Steam_Fittings.html - 5th item down) and it was only when I looked closely I realised that the thread for connecting to the steam line is 3/16 x 40. It does say 3/16 in the text, but their other lubricators (and the image of this one on the web) have 1/4 x 40, which fooled me. I called RDG to see if they supplied a suitable tee piece and they said no, nor did they know of any other supplier who might help. I don't seem to be able to find anyone who supplies a fitting that will join this lubricator to a standard 5/32 tube tee piece. {:-{
How should I connect it? Ideally I would find a tee piece to take a 5/32 tube in and out, but with a female 3/16 x 40 in the tee so I can just screw the lubricator into it. Does such a fitting exist? Failing that, how do I connect this lubricator into the steam line - or do I just abandon this and go for a "straight through" lubricator like the Clevedon Steam one? Or have I just missed the blindingly obvious!? :embarrassed:
Help!
Greg
-
Hi Greg, try these people, I use their adapters, elbows etc, good stuff and reasonably priced. If you do not want to buy from USA, Forest Classics import their range of fittings, so could more than likely get you one, they are very helpful. you will get all you need there, I will post a photo of my lubricator when I get home.
http://www.pmresearchinc.com/store/home.php?cat=142
http://www.forest-classics.co.uk/
-
Hi Greg, here's how I did mine, although I used the 1/4 x 40 version of RDG's lubricator. The Tee was from Forest Classics and the pipe unions from Steam Fittings.co.uk. You will need an adapter to reduce the size of the tee where the lubricator screws in.
Hope this helps,
Nick.
(http://s19.postimage.org/p9t697u37/Lubricator_and_Tee_piece.jpg)
-
Thanks Nick. I knew there had to be a more elegant solution than trying to make up a very short length of pipe with nipples on each end! Guess a call to Forest Classics is on the cards. :-))
Greg
-
Well, no sooner do I find a problem than the good Mayhemers fix it for me. As well as Nick's help and suggestions, I was e-mailed by George (he of engine-driven pump fame) offering to make me a tee piece to suit my lubricator. A quick exchange of messages and the tee piece arrived this morning. Here it is attached to the lubricator. The fitting at the top of the picture solders straight on to the inlet manifold of the engine. Beautifully made and just the job. Thank you George, very much indeed. :-)) :-)) :-))
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b596/Greggyp99/Georgestee.jpg)
Apart from that, progress on the pipework has been a little slow. My 1:1 scale boat (see my avatar) has been trumping the steam plant for my time over the last few days. I've made a start though, and my silver soldering so far isn't too bad (to my eye at least). One more question though - after annealing the tubing to bend it and soldering the nipples, the copper is discoloured. Is there a way to return it to shiny copper colour? Or does this require some form of mild acid bath (which I have not done so far)? Obviously I know it won't stay shiny, but it would be nice if it was all the same colour rather than the blotchy effect I now have. Perhaps it's just my hamfisted use of the blowtorch. {:-{
I have also taken logoman's advice and performed some minor surgery on the manifolds to allow the hex head screws to fit. That's gone pretty well too, although I suspect my metalworking prowess (or lack thereof) would raise a few eyebrows among the real engineers. Pics to follow when I've tidied it up a bit!
Greg
-
Hi Greg, for cleaning up after soldering (pickling) there a number of things you could use. Vinegar, Citric Acid, (as sold in home brew shops) or my favorite, a 5% solution of Sulfuric Acid, but only if you know how to use it safely. ( it is available to buy online) once pickled and rinsed, polish by your favored method.
-
I use brick acid used to clean up brick work after my clumsy DIY efforts %% %%
-
Well things seem to have slowed up a bit recently but I haven't stopped completely. I have fitted the lubricator and pump to the engine and done a few bits of pipework, but am going quite slowly as I work out where I want things. I have been looking at andywright's thread from way back (http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3755.0) where he fits a plant like mine in a Solent launch (Metcalf Mouldings in those days, now built by Models by Design) - a boat I am led to believe Santa will be leaving under the tree for me. :-) :-) :-) As he was fitting his plant, Andy turned the boiler round so that the chimney was more amidships, and I, like him, think it looks better that way. So I am going to do the same which means my burner is now at the forward end of the boiler and right next to the gas tank - which is probably no bad thing. Now I have decided that I can start fixing things in place on my temporary base to get all the pipe runs sorted out.
Thanks yet again for the advice guys - it's comforting to know that almost whatever the problem, someone will have an idea to fix it. I have been using white vinegar to clean up my soldering and it works fine - 30 minutes or so in the vinegar and a quick buff up and it's all shiny again. I guess there are more potent solutions (no pun intended!) but I only needed to walk to the kitchen to get the vinegar. Anyway, just to prove I haven't been completely idle, here's a picture.
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b596/Greggyp99/lubeandpumpfitted.jpg)
I found that I can use the lubricator needle valve as a throttle when running on my compressor (just open the drain to let the air out), and I have had the engine running really slowly at what must be only 3-4 psi - the gauge on the compressor barely registers. I still take irrational delight in just standing and watching the engine working. Daft isn't it? :} :} :} :}
Greg
-
Hi Greg
Nothing wrong with watching your engine I do it all the time and more when the grandchildren come round.
The way you are fitting up your engine will go really well in mine as I will be fitting Georges designs on mine as well
Your making a really good job of it. Keep up the good work you should have it piped in buy the time I finish my boiler !!
Alan
-
Good evening Greg, looking good. I to watch my engine steaming away, ( and steaming up the windows to boot!). Like you, I mounted everything on a board to start with, and have now transferred it to a piece of 100mm trunking coverplate, just the job for fitting the plant into the boat ( African Queen) as a removable unit It has a 10mm lip down each edge, so only the ends need folding up once the length has been established. I scrounged my piece from some electrical contractors who were replacing the mains feeds to some flats a couple of doors away. The feed water heates is brilliant, It was even hot enough to make a cuppa, and yes, I tried it, tasted ok too.
Keep up the good work.
Nick.
-
I can watch mine running until my specs steam up. If you intend using a regulator I was advised to position the oiler upstream from the regulator so both regulator and cylinders are lubed. It's looking good. My engine also ran on a breath of air when first started and would even run on the setting position. Not so on steam and on load. It doesn't even like running in the economy position but that maybe because of the large backlash in the coupling. I did toy with operating without a regulator and just relying on the hacker gear but I'm glad I didn't because in my case it wouldn't have worked. I'm not short on radio channels though so I did choose to fit the lot. Keep up the good work.
Jerry
-
Thanks for the encouraging comments guys. Jerry, I am going to use a regulator, but listened to the advice that said place the lubricator as close to the engine as possible. I can see the logic of lubricating anything that moves, although the regulator barely moves at all most of the time. I never really thought about lubrication, and if I had I'd probably have assumed a little bit of condensation would suffice. Oh well, I guess I'll stick with what I've got for the moment and see how it goes.
I'm phoning Santa in the morning to make sure he's got my letter - he still lives at the North Pole, right? ;)
Greg
-
Hi Greg, I have fitted my lubricator before the regulator, as I believe this to be the best place for it, that way, anything that moves will get a dose of oil. Last I heard, Santa was living in The Cherry Tree Centre, Wallasey, He has his own micro climate of snow, some elves and a couple of reindeer for company, oh, and hordes of children clamoring for pressies..... :-)) :-)) :-))
-
Greg, I'm sure you'll be ok doing it that way and if not well it's no big deal to change it round. One thing I did find was my regulator is a bit "all or nothing" so with that in mind as part of my refit I've just opened out the hole under the disc to 2mm from 1.5mm. And hope that will give me more control. I wanted to plug the original hole and drill a line of tiny holes to give more progression but the present disc isn't suitable for this and I can't be bothered (scared) to make a new one. I'll let you know if this mod is successful or not next year. The scars on my fingers are proof that when warmed through the regulator is too hot to have any condensate in it! Let us know how you go.
Jerry.
-
A question for those who have been here before me -
A couple of evenings ago I was running the engine to run-in the water pump (and for the joy of watching all those different parts moving in harmony!). I stopped the engine to wipe off some dirty oil, then it wouldn't start again. Even turning by hand it seemed rather stiff. Puzzled? Just a bit. Anyway, when I persuaded it to turn by hand, I noticed (eventually) that the valves were now moving in time with each other - that is, they both reached the top of the stroke at the same time. Obviously one of the eccentrics had slipped. I know when I built the engine that I was probably cautious tightening the tiny set screws that hold the eccentrics in place, so slipping isn't too big a surprise. I re-timed the engine and now it runs better than ever, and I did the set screws up as tight as I dared - in fact as tight as I could using the miniature allen key provided.
My question is, is there a chance of this happening again, and is there anything I can do to prevent it? Obviously the timing going out in the middle of the lake is going to be a bit of an issue. Has anyone had this problem when running, and how did you fix it?
Greg
-
Mine has had no problems. I followed the instructions. Used no loctite. The secret of the little Allen key is that it IS little. When tightening it bends alarmingly but doesn't break. I bent mine about 90 degrees when tightening the grub screws and (fingers crossed), no slippage. I agree it's not a good idea if it happens on the lake.
Jerry.
-
Hi Greg, I had the same problem, it happened twice, I eventually put a tiny drop of threadlock on the allen screw with a pin, and all is good now. A couple of bolts on the valve linkages also worked loose during running in, these I also cured with some threadlock, again, applied with a pin. I used the low strength variety of locking compound to ensure the job can be taken apart without too much fuss should the need arise. :-) :-) :-)
-
Thanks guys - I have snugged up the set screws as much as I can and I'll leave it at that for now. It'll be a while before the steam plant goes beyond arm's reach, so there's plenty of time for it to go wrong again if it is going to happen. If it happens again I'll break out the Loctite.
Greg
-
OK, a little riddle for everyone - when is 1/8" not 1/8"?
Answer- when I try to put my 1/8" tube into an 1/8" nipple. It doesn't fit. It's not a big difference but enough to make it impossible to join the two. Do I just use some emery cloth to reduce the tube diameter a bit, or pop the tube in the freezer for half an hour? Obviously a bigger hammer is not the answer in this case but it does seem odd to me that what should be a sliding fit isn't. >:-o
Is this a common problem? I have had no problems with the 5/32 nipples. If I buy another batch of nipples from a different supplier will that solve the problem? {:-{
Greg
-
Never had a problem like that before, I would try some from another supplier. Are you sure you are not trying to fit metric pir into imperial nipple or vice versa. A possible problem trying to shrink the pipe is that you could end up with insufficient clearance for the solder to run. Hope this helps,
Regards,
Nick. :-) :-)
-
Well, I ordered 1/8" for both the tube and the nipples - admittedly from different suppliers. The label on the tube says 1/8" as did the label on the bag the nipples came in. I'll order some more and see if that makes a difference.
Meanwhile - the connections are all made apart from the water feed from the pump. Sometime soon I'll run out of excuses not to fill the boiler and light the burner :-) :-) :-) More news and piccies soon
Greg
-
Gerrit lit man! :-)) :-)) :-)) I get all my pipe and fittings from steamfittings.co.uk, good quality, good prices and usually arrive next day. :-) :-) :-)
-
Well, a bit of a red letter day today. I filled the gas tank, filled the lubricator, checked all the connections, filled the boiler, lit the gas - and it all worked!!! :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-))
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b596/Greggyp99/firststeaming.jpg)
So I am pretty happy so far, but I now have a whole raft of questions. Most of these are novice stuff I am sure, so apologies for that.
Firstly, filling the gas tank. I assume you should fill it until you can feel the gas sloshing around and it is mostly full by feel? I found I was nearly out of gas, so I couldn't fill the tank more than about a quarter full, if that. When I get a new supply I'll have another play with this. And I assume that leaving gas in the tank is not a problem?
Next filling the boiler. I was using a large syringe to fill the boiler and I expected the sight glass to show the level in the boiler - but the water overflowed when the sight glass was only this full -
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b596/Greggyp99/sightglass.jpg)
I did try tilting the boiler, and the level rose in the sight glass, but I didn't seem to be able to get any more water into the boiler - it just overflowed. What am I missing? I put something like 300 ml into the boiler. The spec on the Maccsteam sight says the capacity is about 750 ml so why did I keep getting the overflow? Was I just filling it too fast? Or is there a special technique like putting a narrow flexible tube into the bottom of the boiler and filling through that?
Anyway, the pressure built up pretty quickly, and after about 7 minutes I opened the steam valve. There was quite a lot of water bubbling out of various places on the engine, but once I gave it a flick it ran fine. It kept going for about 8 minutes, then the pressure started to drop and after a few stop-starts, I decided that was all I was going to get from my first run. The level in the sight glass had dropped almost to the bottom of the glass by this point. The gas tank was also pretty low.
Another question - should I drain the boiler completely after each use or is a small amount of water left in there OK?
There are a lot of small leaks around the engine so I will check the tightness of all the screws. If that doesn't fix it I will probably revert to the gaskets supplied with the kit. And in case anyone is wondering what that closed-off stub of pipe is by the sight glass, I have a gas attenuator on order from Forest Classics and that will be the line that supplies the boiler pressure to the attenuator.
So, not a bad day. I have more questions than answers at the moment, but that's half the fun. :-) I need to get some more gas then I'll do a few more runs to learn some more about how to make it all work properly. In the meantime, any advice for beginners most welcome!
More news soon I hope.
Greg
-
Hi Greg
I don't wish to teach you to suck eggs but did you order 1/8th i.d. or o.d. that could be the difference.
alan
-
Hi Greg, are you sealing the filler/safety valve hole with the syringe when filling, this would not allow the displaced air from escaping. I use a laboratory wash bottle to fill mine, it is basically a flexible plastic bottle with a curved plastic tube about 1/4" od which fits in the hole nicely and allows air to escape. Fill your gas tank as you would a cigarette lighter, ie untill a little gas escapes from the filler valve. I presume you will be doing this with the tank out of the boat, as the gas is heavier than air and any overspill will lie in the bottom of the boat. I usually leave the boiler as is after a run and top up at start of next session, although others may disagree on that one.
Regards,
Nick.
-
Hi Alan, yes I believe I ordered the right tube and nipples. The tube is definitely 1/8" od - it says so on the label and on the vernier when I measure it - and the nipples are VERY NEARLY 1/8" id - but are about 0.03mm shy of being the right size (sorry for the mixed units!). I've ordered some more tube and nipples, both from the same supplier, and we'll see if that sorts it. And please don't worry about the egg sucking - I really am a neophyte when it comes to anything engineering or steam, so I welcome being told the simple things. Anyone familiar with a subject tends to assume that everyone knows the basics - they're obvious aren't they O0 O0 O0 ..... {:-{ No, not to me!!
Hi Nick, you might be right, my syringe does nearly fill the hole, maybe I'm simply trying to force the water in without letting the air out. Next time I'll do it much more gently. As for the gas tank, yes I'm filling it out of the boat - mainly because I don't actually have a boat yet! I have just got back from buying some more gas and filled the tank as you suggest. I've also been round all the screws and given them a tweak to try and close the leaks. Tomorrow we'll have another go :-)) :-))
Greg
-
Well that didn't go quite as well as I'd hoped. I filled the boiler more slowly with a smaller syringe and that worked well, albeit a bit slow! Lit the burner, and I had 30 psi in 10 minutes. I opened the valve and got some hot water bubbling out of various places around the engine, but when I flicked the flywheel the engine ran fine. The pressure dropped to about 10 psi straight away, but the engine seemed to be running OK. I had less steam escaping around the engine so tightening the screws obviously did some good.
After about 5 minutes running, the engine slowed and stopped. I span the flywheel and it started again, but a bit reluctantly. It did this a few times then wouldn't start at all. Pressure still 10-15 psi. I couldn't persuade the engine to turn by hand so decided to abandon the run and see if I could figure out what is going on. Even with all the pressure released, the engine still seems locked up (although it hasn't cooled down yet).
None of my pipes are insulated yet, and I know you can get hydraulic lock from steam condensing in the cylinders, but I thought once the engine was running and warmed through that this wouldn't happen. Why might the engine lock up after 5 minutes running? Given that the engine ran on air for as long as I cared to leave it switched on, it is clearly something to do with running on steam - but what? As it stands this engine isn't going to be driving anything anywhere - apart from me to distraction!
Help! Any suggestions or solutions?
{:-{ {:-{ {:-{
Greg
-
Hi Greg, check the clearances between the linkages for the valve gear, and also that they are tight, also make sure the allen screws on the weighshaft are secure and that one side or t'other hasn't slipped. That also happened to me. There was a distinct rubbing sound when I turned the engine over by hand. Recheck all the valve gear and timing while you are at it. I had to set timing 3 times as it kept slipping.
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))
-
First observations. Boiler should reach 60 psi in 8-10 minutes and safety should lift. Keep heating and pressure should stabilise at <66 psi. This engine needs to be run slowly, throttle only just open. Experiment to find the max revs for steady pressure. This is for bench test. In the water the throttle will need to be opened more but only enough to keep the rpm low. You will need a big 3 blade prop with 4-6" pitch. The engine should be run at 35 psi according to the maker and I try to do this but it doesn't fly apart if you run at more pressure. Is there any restriction in the exhaust side and does plenty steam come out of the flue? Can you see thin oil film on top of condensate in separator. Is the feed water entering the boiler hot. Feel pipe just before the clack valve. If eyes water it's ok. If feed water cold then pressure will plummet. I have heating coil in flue. Cannot vouch for heating coil in separator. Engine will need to run for a while before separator. Gets hot enough(I think) whereas flue heater(economiser) is instant. I was advised not to fit an economiser so didn't. Big mistake. It proved vital. Hope this helps you.
Jerry.
-
I have a preheater coil in the seperator, works fine, water comes out hot enough to brew up with, I tried it, made a nice cuppa it did. Only takes a few seconds of running to get nice and hot. I have posted a video link a while ago of it working.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXE0a38D1Iw&feature=youtu.be
-
Wow, you guys must have been lying in wait to respond so quickly!
Yes Nick, I think the timing might have gone out - it just seems odd that it happened after 5 minutes of steam but not after 50 minutes of compressed air. I'll check that, and all the other linkages and stuff. I have decided I will fit the gaskets as well, to cut down the leakage as much as possible.
Jerry, thanks for the advice. I will let the pressure build up rather more next time before letting the engine run. Yes, I am getting plenty of steam out of the exhaust and yes, it does have a film of oil on it. I'm not actually using the oil separator at the moment, just an old butter carton so I can see exactly what I am getting out. I am also not filling the boiler when running either. The pump is fitted but not connected up yet, so cold water isn't affecting anything. The suggestion to "pre-warm" the water is a good one, so I will think about running the feed through the flue when I do get around to organising the top-up water. Right now I just want my engine to run for 15 minutes without needing attention!
A bit of work to do on the engine, plus I apparently have some chores ( :(( :(( ) so it will be a day or two before steam is raised again.
Thanks again for the help.
Greg
-
Hi Greg, remember everything will expand slightly and tighten upp a bit when running on steam, as I said, mine ran like a clock on compressed air, but it took 3 go's to get it running right on the hot fog. Keep at it and you will get there. :-)) :-)) :-))
-
Not too sure I am progressing much at the moment. After my last attempt reported above, I rechecked the timing. It had gone off a bit due to one of the set screws in the reverse linkage connector slipping, so I tightened that up, reset the timing, ran the engine on compressed air - everything hunky dory - then lit the boiler again. I intended to follow Jerry's advice and let the pressure get towards 60 psi before setting things going, but the safety lifted at just over 30psi. OK, not to worry, open the steam valve and run on that. Well, no - the engine barely turned over and then stopped. It was rigid - couldn't budge it by hand. I let it all cool down and rechecked everything. The timing seems fine and the engine runs beautifully on air. Tried again this morning - raised steam to 30 psi, opened the steam valve, the engine ran for about a minute then started to sound laboured and I could hear something rubbing badly. It stopped after a minute and a half and again I could barely turn it by hand. One good thing - the gaskets seem to have fixed just about all the annoying little leaks.
I am not discouraged, just puzzled. {:-{ I clearly need to do something different, but I'm not sure what. If the timing is right then what stops the engine running when I put steam through it? All the linkages and locking nuts seem firm, nothing binds when the engine is turned by hand or run on air. What should I try next? Nick, did you make any adjustments to get the engine to steam properly?
Tried to phone Mike at Maccsteam this morning to ask about the safety but he is obviously busy building boilers. Not sure if he knew I was going to be using the boiler with a TVR1A but if he did he might have set the safety at 30psi on purpose. I'll drop him an e-mail. (Is the safety valve setting something you can play with yourself? If so, how do you adjust it?)
Oh, and the saga of the 1/8" nipples continues - got some new nipples and pipe with the same result - none of my nipples fit any of my pipe. I assume they ought to slide on just like the 5/32 ones do on to the 5/32 pipe?
I hope to get to my local club on Thursday (intended to go last week but a sick cat put paid to that) so with a bit of luck I might meet someone who can point me in the right direction.
Gosh this is fun, isn't it! :-) :-) :-)
Greg
-
Sounds like an elimination procedure required here. First off the safety valve. When I got my Maccsteam boiler I asked Mike if ok to reduce from 60psi setting to 35psi and he said that they sometimes become unreliable when slacked off so. Not unsafe but erratic. I did it anyway and found he was correct. I reset it to 60psi. The thread is finely center popped to lock in position. Your boiler certificate states the designed working pressure (mine states 60psi). I'm assuming that's what yours is set for. Many peeps say if you change the setting you invalidate the stickyfoot. Mike says not so. Stickyfoot only for boiler itself not fittings.
Also not good practice to use fitted gauge to reset safety valve. So I would deco have a chat with mike to find out if he set it at 30psi or 60psi. Once that is sorted I would confirm that the oiler really is working. Fill it to the top and then screw down the top. This will force some oil into the steam supply pipe. At the end of a decent run, check the oiler drain. Does a drop or two of water come out. If so good as this is the water that dispolaced oil into engine. If no water then oiler not working. I would try it with needle valve one turn open and reduce later as you gain experience. Next I would disconnect the exhaust pipe at the manifold and exhaust straight to atmosphere in case of build up of back pressure in exhaust/separator/flue. (You never know). How long did you run in on air before changing to steam? What grade is your steam oil? Mine is 600sae. Like syrup when cold. Ok when hot. Any more and I'm stumped I'm afraid. If all your grub screws are tight why should a thing slip? When it tightens up can you jiggle the big ends with tweezers? If yours is the BB version these are the only bearing surfaces that can pickup. The bores have o rings and so unlikely to pickup. Can't think of anything else and brain hurting. Over to you George.
Jerry.
-
Guys,
Unfortunately I don't have any experience running TVR engines but there seams to be some people that have no problems with them but others have.
In Gregs first pra it is in my opinion that a Hydraulic lock is happening, i.e. steam condensing in a cold cylinder.
In all of the bigger engines that I have built, D10's and 10V's, it's only a matter of wiggling the forward reverse lever to clear the condensate, I no longer fit cylinder drain valves they are more trouble than worth.
If the engine was in a boat with a prop fitted it would only be a matter of turning off the steam supply and turning the prop by hand , firstly clockwise and then anticlockwise to clear the condensate and then bleed in the steam to get the engine to run with the help of turning over with the prop.
If screws are coming loose I would start from scratch by timing the engine and put a dab of 243 on the screws and let them cure overnight before trying it on steam.
Is there a steam dryer fitted to the steam line ? perhaps if not the wet steam from the boiler is only aggravating the hydraulic locking process.
Could it be unlagged steam pipes that is condensing the wet steam further before getting to the engine.
If I was fitting a steam dryer to a boiler I would not fit anything like the hair pin bend that Mike at Maccsteam supplies, in my opinion they are useless, I would make a coil which fitted tight to the inside of the funnel, 3-4 turns would be enough, this would get the heat from the burner more effectively.
Jerry I can't think of what you mean in your last para, what is the bearings and the "O" rings picking up ?
I am sorry that I can't be more helpful but the smaller the slide valve engines and steam pumps are, the more trouble is experienced.
George.
-
Sorry George, picking up, automotive term for partial seizure during running in. Shows as smears of one metal on t'other. Frees off on cooling.
Jerry.
-
Greg....you have some sound advice here from Jerry C & ooyah/2 & you could work through the points....however in parallel with this why not pen a note to the manufacturer
There may be a simple explanation or recommendation he can make........good luck.....
Just one question....those successful air trials...what air pressure are you using?.................Derek
-
Thanks everyone for the advice and encouragement. It's nice to know I'm not alone! :-)) Jerry, I am sure the oiler is working - the oil is going somewhere, and I drain water out of the lubricator. Don't know the sae (I just bought steam oil), but yes, it is like golden syrup. I ran for about 2.5-3 hours on air and made sure everything was well oiled when I did so. Everything certainly feels smooth and easy when you turn the cold engine over by hand. George, I think you are right, my problem is probably hydraulic lock, because when I turn the cooled engine over by hand, spurts of water come out the exhaust. I don't have a steam drier at the moment - just straight out the boiler and into the engine. There seem to be plenty of TVRs running perfectly well without drying the steam. Maybe something for the future. However, I did put on some temporary lagging -
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b596/Greggyp99/tempinsulation_zps575076b5.jpg)
OK, not too pretty at the moment but better than nothing. Derek - I haven't contacted Graham Industries at the moment - I think there are more things I want to try first to see if I can crack it.
I also had an exchange with Mike Abbott about the pressure gauge. He had set it to 30psi, which explains that, and was perfectly happy for me to adjust it. I did so, although I didn't really know how much to turn it. I think I did about 1 full turn or a bit less, and as we'll see later that seemed to do the trick.
The other lesson I have learnt is about filling the gas tank. Previously I stopped filling when the liquid gas bubbled out around the filler, but I have now discovered that you need to pause, then fill again - and again. I had about 5 or 6 goes before I could feel a reasonable amount of gas sloshing around inside the tank. I also have been following the advice on the Mainsteam site not to hold the tank when filling it. You want a warm canister dispensing the gas but a cold tank receiving it to get maximum pressure difference between the two.
So of I go again, fill the boiler and light the gas. The safety lifted at about 50psi by the boiler gauge and I opened the steam valve. The engine started, ran for about a minute then slowed and stopped. >>:-( I moved the reversing lever back and forth, spun the flywheel and the engine ran intermittently. After a few stops and starts I discovered that if I left the lever in the "economy" position at the bottom of the detent bar (ie one slot up from the bottom), the engine ran fine. If I tried to change direction, it stopped and only ran intermittently. Similarly, if I moved to the very bottom slot, it ran slowly and then stopped. Only in that one position would the engine run well. So I left it there and had a 20 minute run. I could adjust the speed with my throttle, from a slow tickover to - well, fast! I tried a few times to reverse the direction or use the "fully open" position, but with the same result. The boiler pressure was about 35psi during the run.
So, success! My engine has run on steam until I stopped it, not until it stopped itself. :-) :-) :-)
But it is still a little way from being reliable in forward and reverse - and I am puzzled by it running in the economy position but not in the fully open position. {:-{ {:-{ Other than some more careful checking of the timing, is there anything else I should be looking at?
As the old British Rail slogan used to say - We're getting there!! O0
Greg
-
Hi Greg, have you centered the slide valve so that there is equal opening of the ports, maght be worth rechecking, keep at it, you will get there in the end. :-)) :-)) :-))
-
Well I thought I had - I've checked it several times, and when I run the engine on air it runs equally well on both forward and reverse "economy" settings, which suggests it's all symmetrical. But I'll check it again as well as checking that nothing else has worked loose!
Greg
-
Greg, you've got the safety and boiler right. The gas tank filling is only a question of endurance and nothing to do with this running problem. The oiler is also working. The fact that at 35psi you can find a position on the reversing gear where the engine will run for 20minutes points to a fundamental timing issue. I'm with POMick on this one. Something you have done is not right. Read through again but with an open mind as if you'd never read them before. At each stage try to find another meaning from the one you had before. The fault I'm sure is in there somewhere. Going back to hydraulic lock, this happens only in the begining when everything past the steam outlet to the engine is cold. The engine clears this in a couple of seconds and everything heats up very quickly. Your lagging will certainly help with this. I have no drier on mine with no probs and graham tells you not to use one. Anyway matey you're making progress. Everything you can get right and eliminate is one step towards a solution. You will get there and we're all watching over your shoulder. Just wish you were a bit closer to me then I could come over and help. It's so difficult having to do it like this. Imagine doing it pre Internet.
Jerry.
-
Well Jerry you've drawn the short straw and as you are nearest to Greg just pop down and see him.
Greg
Yes I have to agree with both Jerry and Nick I am sure that it's a timing problem and the most likely thing is that the slide valve isn't equal in it's travel, as I have said I don't know much about the TVR but I think that it's holes that are drilled for ports rather than slots.
When timing a D10 or 10V and most other slide valve engines with the crank at T.D.C the valve should be set so that a crack is seen as you rotate the engine shaft in the direction that you want it to run and at B.D.C. it should be the same and then do likewise for the other cylinder.
This means that steam admission is just after T.D.C and B.D.C.
On my D10 I set the Stevenson revers gear fully open and let steam enter the engine while turning the shaft over via the prop by hand and the amount of condensate spewing out before the engine starts is quite something and as I had the exhaust directed up the funnel I used to get a very hot shower.
I made a bypass valve on the exhaust line which directed the condensate overboard into a can and when the engine is running clean I redirect the exhaust back up the funnel.
So condensate causing a hydraulic lock isn't confined to the TVR.
If I could I would post some pics of my bypass valve but since the change over it's not possible to post pics on the forum via my MAC..
Hope this helps
George.
-
Hi Greg, just a thought, referring to p14 of the instruction manual, are you sure you have done as instructed re setting the position of the eccentric, ie front piston at tdc, adjust rear eccentric and vice versa, I seem to remember a thread where someone had a similar problem, and it turned out that was the cause of his woes. I have looked for the thread and can't find it, perhaps Jerry or George may have seen it and can remember its title.
Nearly there,
Regards,
Nick.
-
Thanks all for your continued interest and support - and in particular George who PM'ed me some good info on timing slide valve engines. I plan to go back to square one in the next few days and, as Jerry suggests, approach this with a completely open mind - or try to at least. I can normally do "blind faith" or "completely blank" but I can't say I've practised "open mind" much!
More news when I have made progress. (There ought to be a "crossed fingers" smiley at this point.)
And if this all takes a little while - Merry Christmas everyone!
And if it takes a really long time - Happy New Year!!
Greg
-
Thanks all for your continued interest and support - and in particular George who PM'ed me some good info on timing slide valve engines. I plan to go back to square one in the next few days and, as Jerry suggests, approach this with a completely open mind - or try to at least. I can normally do "blind faith" or "completely blank" but I can't say I've practised "open mind" much!
More news when I have made progress. (There ought to be a "crossed fingers" smiley at this point.)
And if this all takes a little while - Merry Christmas everyone!
And if it takes a really long time - Happy New Year!!
Greg
And a merry Christmas to you to.....
-
Greg, seasons greetings. Correct way to find tdc. Remove cylinder cover. Rotate crankshaft to approx tdc. Fix with blue tack a protractor centered on flywheel. Fix pointer towards zero. Set calliper depth gauge to half stroke value and lock it. Without disturbing the protractor rotate crankshaft anticlockwise to below mid stroke. Put depth gauge down the bore with calliper body resting across top of cylinder. Slowly rotate crankshaft clockwise until piston contacts depth probe. Note reading on protractor. Rotate crankshaft clockwise, over tdc to below mid stroke on the other side. Replace depth gauge as before. Slowly rotate crankshaft anticlockwise until piston contacts the probe. Note reading on the protractor. Both reading should be the same but usually won't be. If one is 88deg and tother is 92deg then rotate protractor on flywheel 2deg, keeping flywheel still. Repeat process until both readings are the same. Then and only then rotate crankshaft to zero and voila, you have accurate tdc. The reason for this procedure is because the rate of change of a sinusoidal waveform where tdc is zero tends towards zero at tdc, whereas rate of change tends towards maximum at 90 deg or midstroke. Or in plain lingo you can move the crank a large distance at tdc without moving the piston but at midstroke a small rotation of crankshaft moves piston more. Sounds complicated but easier to do than say.
Jerry.
Ps you can better use a dial gauge instead of calipers.
-
Thanks again for all the advice. I have gone over the timing again and as far as my inexperienced eye can see it is spot on - well, as spot on as I can get it. The biggest variable I think is my judgement of the port exposure at each end of the valve stroke being the same. It is the same as far as I can judge it, and I have been viewing it with a magnifying glass under a strong light. So I have to assume the timing is, if not perfect, at least good enough to get the engine to run consistently.
One thing I did notice when doing the timing. As I turned the engine over slowly by hand, occasionally I would get a "catch" - the engine stiffened up for a moment until I had turned it beyond that point. Very occasionally this catch stopped the engine completely - I couldn't turn it at all without reversing the direction. This appeared to be caused by the eccentric strap jamming on the eccentric. I had noticed before that the strap could move back and forth a little but hadn't really noticed that this was causing friction in the engine. It seems that when the strap is in tension it rides smoothly on the eccentric but when it is in compression it moves a little off the eccentric towards the adjacent bearing. Here are a couple of pictures - the first is the strap correctly seated on the eccentric, the second with it jammed against the bearing housing - you can see where wear has occurred here.
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b596/Greggyp99/looseeccentric_zpsa0f4241c.jpg)
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b596/Greggyp99/jammedeccentric_zpsd0736a9f.jpg)
The strap does seem quite loose on the eccentric, but the only other "slop" I can find in the whole linkage is where the strap is connected to the male slide - there's a small gap of about 0.5mm which allows the top of the strap to float back and forth by that amount. Mind the gap -
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b596/Greggyp99/linkfloat_zps2c969a99.jpg)
That bolt is done up as far as it will go - I guess it is bottoming out in the threaded hole which prevents the head butting up to the collar of the slide which just protrudes from the strap. All this might explain the reluctant running and occasional full stop I have been getting. My question is - do others have these movements in the eccentric strap, has it caused problems and what if anything has anyone done to address it?
Sorry, this is getting a bit down-in-the-weeds for the casual reader. Hope I'm not boring you! %)
Greg
-
Greg, the third photo shows the valve gear out of line with the valve stem. When the eccentric binds try rotating that pillar a fraction anticlockwise until all lines up. Ditto other end. Might help.
Jerry.
-
Greg, the third photo shows the valve gear out of line with the valve stem. When the eccentric binds try rotating that pillar a fraction anticlockwise until all lines up. Ditto other end. Might help.
Jerry.
Indeed, I used a straight edge across the flats to get then squared up properly. :-)) :-))
-
Greg,
No 1
I have had a look at the engine in my possession at present and it has slotted screws were yours has hex bolts.
Take the bolt, hold it in your vice and file at 45 deg, then move the hex around filing on all 6- sides, then square of the bolt which will make it that bit shorter, or if you have the original slotted screw put that in and see if the eccentric strap still wonders.
I am assuming that you don't have a lathe, if you have one put the hex in the 3- jaw and file a bit off the bottom.
No 2
Check that the eccentric sheave is in the correct position, loosen the grub screw and rotate the shaft and if you have completed No 1 the sheave should slide into its correct position.
If after No 1 & No 2 it still wonders,
No 3
loosen the screws top and bottom of the support columns and they will automatically line up after all of the other checks have been made, don't forget to re- tighten them.
The only other thing that I can think of is there any of the links bent?
George.
-
One thing I did notice when doing the timing. As I turned the engine over slowly by hand, occasionally I would get a "catch" - the engine stiffened up for a moment until I had turned it beyond that point....
....My question is - do others have these movements in the eccentric strap, has it caused problems and what if anything has anyone done to address it?
[size=78%]Greg[/size]
I checked my engine and I also see the strap wandering. I had not noticed this before and so wish to thank you for this thread. It does not catch the bearing, but i do feel a very slight stiff spot when turning it over, which i'd assumed was a little compression in the cylinder; now i think it is strap alignment. Thanks also to George, Nick and Gerry for suggesting ways to correct this. :-))
-
Phew! That was a hectic Christmas. Still managed to find a few a moments to play with the steam engine. I changed the slightly long bolt in the linkage for the original screw and that reduced the movement a little bit. Once I am fully sorted I'll shorten the hex head bolt and put that back. For the moment I'm focussed on getting the engine to run reliably. I checked all the points suggested by George and made sure I really was reading the timing instructions correctly - I was! I have also played with the timing a fair bit. I am realising that a tiny adjustment on the valve stem (screwing up or down a fraction of a turn) can make a noticeable difference to the smoothness and reliability of the engine. It is certainly getting better, and if I set it going and leave it alone it keeps going. It will change direction (fairly) reliably - occasionally needs a to-and-fro on the lever to get going again - and responds well to the throttle as long as I keep the engine running. However, if I try and stop it by closing the throttle and then open it again, I sometimes get the "locked solid" feeling. I can't even move the fwd/reverse lever, the engine won't turn and I have to leave it for a while before gently wiggling it back to life. This is something to do with running on steam - the engine will run all day, stop, start, tick over or race when I use compressed air, but steam seems to get things binding up somehow. Nevertheless, things are getting better and I will persevere.
Santa was as good as his word, and I now have something to take my steam plant afloat.
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b596/Greggyp99/solenthull_zps32c21298.jpg)
This was ordered quite late in the day and I must applaud Models by Design who still got it under the tree in time for Christmas. Great service!
I am not sure I will use the deck moulding. I'm not too keen on the way it narrows in the forward part. Apart from anything else, my fat fingers are going to need all the space they can get! Nothing decided yet, but I'm drawing plans for wooden deck beams and planking and when I've done that I'll make my choice. Incidentally, is there any reason that I shouldn't build my water tank into the bow rather than having a separate tank? It seems perfectly straightforward to glue in a couple of bulkheads to form the tank, but nobody seems to do it that way. Why?
Well, I guess it will be next year before I report any more on this, so Happy New Year to everyone, and let's hope the weather in 2013 is a little kinder for boats and sailing.
Greg
-
Hi Greg,
For the Solent, have a look at this Andy's page : http://www.windpowersails.8m.com/photo4_1.html (http://www.windpowersails.8m.com/photo4_1.html)
Happy new year to all !
Alain
-
Thanks Alain, I have seen Andy's Solent before and it was his lovely work that swayed me to choose the Solent over the other hulls I was considering.
Logoman - if you find a way to keep the eccentric straps from moving around, do please let us know - I'd be very interested! O0 It's obviously not something that affects the running of other TVRs, based on the number of successful installations there are out there, so maybe my little issue will go away with time - it's already becoming less of a problem each time I run the engine.
I am starting on the Solent build now and will start a separate thread on that. I will continue to run the TVR to learn more about its little foibles, and I still need to plumb in the water for topping up the boiler with George's pump. But space on the bench isn't limitless and a change is, apparently, as good as a rest - so it's boat building for a little while now, with occasional steamy sessions when I get the time. If I come to any big decisions or difficult bits with the engine I'll come back here to seek the collected wisdom of the forum. In the meantime, a very big thank-you to all who have helped, encouraged and commented - I suspect I'd have had a dire time without your steadying hands :-)) :-)) :-)) .
Greg
-
In my plan for the TVR1A steam plant I included a gas regulator (attenuator), the BIX029 from Forest Classics. I ordered this back in the autumn, and was told that due to poor health of the chap who makes it, it might be some time before it arrived. At that time, that was not an issue. Well, it has become an issue and I have now cancelled that order. I've had several promises of delivery, each one missed (last one was within 10-14 days on 6th January) but to date no attenuator and no communication explaining the absence. >>:-( It's just a bit sad that this item is still advertised on the front page of the Forest Classics website when it is clearly discontinued.
So - is there any other product I can get to do this job? I know some folk have made their own but my metal working skills are below basic - I can barely file a straight edge, so making a complex valve like this is a long way down the line for me. Is there an equivalent to the BIX029 available? I've looked but I haven't found it.
It's not the end of the world if I can't find one - there are loads of steam plants out there running without a gas regulator. If I can't source one in the next month I'll rework my piping to remove the pressure feed for the attenuator I have built in. But if you know of something....?
Disappointed but hopeful of Hayling
Greg
-
Greg......the French manufacturer ANTON produce a number of gas regulators.... but the WEB site is not all that user friendly >>:-(
The Swiss distributor KRAMER markets the ANTON product and their part number for the same item is I believe V78
Both of these are probably x 2.5 on the cost of the BIX029
As you say ....probably the majority of gas fired model steam plants do not have a gas regulator........however yes they do save both gas & water ...
Probably a "nice to have :-)) rather than a necessity" .....Derek
___________________________________________________________________________________________
Les Régulateurs de gaz V71Lors de l'installation d'un groupe vapeur dans votre bateau, survient la question sécurité : comment baisser le brûleur quand la pression de la chaudière est atteinte ?
Deux solutions : le régulateur gaz simple ou le régulateur gaz bi-membraneGas regulator to regulate the boiler pressure acting on the flow of gas to the burner. The operation of this type of regulator is generally governed by a single membrane and a gas control valve, the pressure of water from one side of the membrane and gas across this same membrane pressure. When the boiler has reached the set operating pressure, the burner will automatically on the back burner. The regulator therefore saves gas and facilitates relaxation. It also allows saving consumption of water in the boiler while avoiding the inadvertent discharge of the valve.This is no classic gas regulator, proposed by ANTON workshops
-
Hi again Greg. I also planned to include a gas control valve on my build but was advised by "people that know" to keep it simple at first until your au fait avec votre plant. I could always fit one later. I chose to follow that advice. Since then I have found that the 3 1/2" Maccsteam, TVR1A and George's feed pump to be such a perfect combination that I have had no need of a GCV at all. If I find the safety lifting then running the engine lowers the pressure. In use I average around the 20 to 30 psi mark. I also found that the burner is not all that reduceable anyway. So I'm quite happy not to have one. When all is finished and you're at the lake you'll find you've plenty to be getting on with. I get 40 minute sessions out of my combo and find that plenty
As my arms hurt holding the Tx after that long. And it's thirsty work. Nearly summer, crack on matey.
Jerry.
-
Hi Greg, I tried one but was not all that impressed with it, I get about half an hour out of my Maccsteam 3.5 horizontal and SVS engine without a feed pump, which for me, is a long enough run. You can have my Bix one for far less than retail if you want it, but as Jerry says, you don't really need one.
-
Thanks guys - and thanks Nick for the offer. From what you say the attenuator really is an optional extra, and perhaps circumstances have led me to a simpler setup and saved me another layer of hassle in setting up. The Anton fitting looks very nice, but it's a bit rich for my blood I'm afraid. I'll put the attenuator idea to one side for now, and if I ever get to the stage of needing a longer run time then I can always revisit it.
Sorry Jerry, what was that word you used - summer ? No, don't recognise that one, is it some foreign word? :} :} :}
Greg
-
Know what you mean Greg. I've put modelling to one side at the moment. Don't want anything sharp too near my wrists!! That said the weather here has been really good this winter, long periods of brilliant sunshine and calm but always soooo cold. The views of Sowdonia priceless.
Jerry.
-
At that time, that was not an issue. Well, it has become an issue and I have now cancelled that order.
Pity that Forest seem to have put all their eggs in one basket. Would have thought a few could have been manufactured by someone else to keep customers happy?
Regards Ian
-
Greg,
If you get the BIX, don't install it backwards!!! Trust me on this one! :}
Jerry,
I thought you were a regular bloke until you threw the French in :-)
"to keep it simple at first until your au fait avec votre plant." What the heck does that mean? My Google translator gave me "to do with your"
Also, I don't understand the reference to thirsty work. We have a solution over here.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS5yGWT7EvDeRPFHTRwXa-YOgUn8FeWHesEcjrBzZKGXJS2J9DBaw)
[/size]
Ken/Landlocked
-
What happened to this project, is it finished?
-
Yes, finished and installed. My build of the steam launch sort of took over from this thread so you need to go there to see the TVR in its rightful place.
-
Looks like a great thread, and build! (No time to read it now, so I'm subscribing so I don't miss out on reading it, later.)
Thanks,
GreenSteam
-
Just a suggestion that doesn't appear to be covered in the thread. When setting the timing, the instructions are very 'monkey see, monkey do' and if the end result isn't what you hoped for, you may be flummoxed if unfamiliar with steam plant. If you adjust one end to sort a problem, how do you know that the other end isn't affecting the problem, at least in part and you end up chasing your tail?
My solution was to get the valve travel adjustment as accurate as possible. Then I slipped a spade blank cut from a drinks can between the block and cylinder inlet flange at one end. (Watch out you don't damage the gasket.) Thus with one end isolated, I could adjust the other until it was running as near-perfect as possible. Swop the blank to the other cylinder and repeat. Remove blank and the engine should be running at its best.
Barry M
-
When I wrote this log, I hosted most of the pictures on Photobucket and they were displayed here via that site. Photobucket have now decided they will not allow that unless I pay them $400 a year. >:-o I am not about to do that, so I can only apologise for the lack of pictures. If there is a particular aspect of this build you want to follow up, PM me and I will try and send you the relevant pictures.
Sorry - and steer clear of Photobucket!
Greg
-
We're working on a way to reinsert them back into original post here on Mayhem so:
1. Download your photos from Photobucket. ( Downloading them, even if you still have originals retains the upload file name )
2. You can use Photobucket 'Album download' or
3. Or use Chrome - https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/photobucket-album-downloa/jmpbbfglflhdhbmimlcacoojpkeopelc?hl=en
Also see: http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,58456.msg611157.html#msg611157
-
Thanks Martin. And well done for working so hard to get this mess sorted out. :-))