Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Navy - Military - Battleships: => Topic started by: Bob K on May 08, 2017, 06:00:01 pm
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HMS Agincourt build project
I have been known to take on unusual and challenging projects, like my semi-submersible torpedo ram. Having seen the prototype of HMS Agincourt I absolutely must have one, despite the serious impracticalities involved. I have been working on various solutions for some time, and am now on the verge of starting the build.
(http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n626/bobkiralfy/HMS%20Agincourt/Agincourt%208_zps4bwlrbug.jpg) (http://s1143.photobucket.com/user/bobkiralfy/media/HMS%20Agincourt/Agincourt%208_zps4bwlrbug.jpg.html)
See also:
HMS Agincourt semi-kit prototype at Deans Marine
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,56462.msg589561.html#msg589561 (http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,56462.msg589561.html#msg589561)
Rotating 7 gun turrets
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,56800.msg590109.html#msg590109 (http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,56800.msg590109.html#msg590109)
How you get a seven foot long warship into a tiny city ECO car heads the list of challenges. The lake our club uses will not allow trailers. The bar over car park entrance rules out a top box. So, there is only one way. Build and transport it in sections like our latest aircraft carriers. Careful measurements show I can just get both halves onto the folded down rear seats of my Vauxhall Agila if the hull cut is exactly between the two centre turrets. Two demi-hulls 42 inches ling by eleven inches beam. My workbench is only 1.6 M, but that will take half a hull at a time.
Joining the halves
Just about every multi section ship I have seen uses bolts nuts and washers, involving a lot of fiddling about on your knees lakeside. With my iffy legs that is out. I need a more plug-and-play method. I looked at how model railway layouts are transported. Some chunky flange mounted spigots and bosses looked a possible method. However, after trials it became apparent they would not adequately support the mass involved. Adapting the principle I figured that if I could mount three substantial tubes in each half of the hull, across several reinforced bulkheads, and use close fitting rods to effect the join, the load would be supported. Lastly, a substantial adjustable toggle latch in the centre to clamp the supported halves together. The rods would be transported separately.
Getting it home
The 2.14 M length of the hull is a “collection only” from Deans Marine. So the next problem is how to get it home. I am hoping I can arrange something with Ron to cut it in their workshop.
Electrics
I am not messing around with interconnecting cables, asking for trouble. The stern half will be fully self contained with its own Rx, ESC’s, mixers and batteries. The Bow half will be mainly water ballasted, pumps and float switches, but with a matching Rx paired to the same Planet T7 transmitter for additional functionality.
Seven Turrets !
Now for the part that has really filled my sails. I am going for the full seven turret fire control system mentioned on the above link. Using stepper motors under the turrets and Arduino’s plus a heading sensor to control their movement. Basically, you set a ‘compass’ bearing and any/all guns that can train on it will do so, and continue to adjust their bearing as the ship changes course. Special thanks to C-3PO.
More about that later !!!!
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Well I for one wish you the best of luck and will watch avidly for the updates of this build as it continues. :-))
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Amen! Capital ships and lots of turrets always float my boat :} If you can get the hull cut in half properly then everything else will be a breeze relatively speaking, given that you have worked on pumping systems before and the turret control system is being developed by at least two fellow members.
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Looks like this is going to be an epic build - I like epics so I'll jump aboard and see how this one develops.
Regards,
Ray.
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Thank you for the encouragement chaps :}
This has kinda been in R&D for some time. Nick B will remember me taking loads of photos at Deans in December. Ron Dean has cast turrets and a set of running gear for her. I intend using 2 x Action P93's for the inner pair of prop shafts, and a P94 dual ESC with mixer for the two outer shafts. I may add about 30% to the rudder area as I have found this greatly assists long warships being able to turn.
The basic shapes of the superstructure look to be well suited to flat or round section fabrication. I am not even thinking about the sheer volume of deck planking and stanchions involved.
One practical revision: The sides are bristling with secondary armaments that coming alongside could easily destroy. I intend making those gun barrels in soft grey rubber as they are asking to be broken off.
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Hi Bob
Good luck with your build and I look reading about it :-)
Dreadnought
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Rx Testing
OK, silly time. Using dual paired Rx's should work, but I have never tested the principle until now.
Both halves of the ship will have independent electrics, each with it's own Planet 7 channel receiver, independently paired to the T7 transmitter I intend using for the ship.
Most of my boats have separate Rx's, each paired to my Planet transmitter, I have never tried using more than one boat at a time though. So, I turned on the power to two boats, then turned on the transmitter.
As expected, both sets of rudders and props worked exactly together in unison as if wired together.
Then I tried it with four boats. Same satisfactory result.
This proves that my plan for independent paired receivers for each half of the ship will work together as if one. The dedicated channel positions on each Rx have to match for functionality of course. It will mean duplicating Arduino's and bearing sensors for the seven turret control system, but at not much more cost than a pair of multipole connectors that would be very vulnerable to water, operational damage, and also reliability.
It also means Arduino processing overheads can be shared by two processors, one handling the aft four turrets, the other the forward three.
Might be obvious, but I needed to check a dual RX system works.
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A wonderful subject. I have always loved the flying platforms, I hope that is the correct term, running amidships. I tip my hat to you for attempting such a huge and grand project. Big is always better when they meet the water, their motion is so much more realistic.
I like your idea for connecting the hull halves. I will follow your build anxiously awaiting each post.
Good Luck
Jonathan
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It may have no effect whatsoever Bob, but have you checked out the multiple RX's at distance to make sure that thay all have the same range? One would hope that RX made with the same components in the same factory, pssibly by the same people should have exactly the same properties, but there may be slight differences between component batches or production qualities that would show up at distance.
Naturaly, one would not be running Agincourt at maximum distance all the time due to lake size etc, but as she is a big model she will look good in the distance where your turrets may still work whilst the drivetrain has suddenly cut out or vice versa (which is less important).
Just a thought...
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On this side of the Pond, I know of several "Bubbleheads" who have very successfully used multiple receivers running off the same transmitter. They installed them in separate pressure hulls within the main hull. If they will work in submarines, a" target" should not be too much of a challenge.
Jonathan
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You could even do firing guns - per my Iron Duke thread - all the plans and details are there.
In terms of transportation a couple of thoughts:
1) If your front seats and rear seats have removable headrests you could replace them and make a holding bracket so the hull sits in their place assuming the car is long enough? I considered this for Iron Duke but in the end found it just fitted diagonally in my Vectra hatch.
2) You say a roof box is out of the question due to height restrictions but what if you remove the superstructure and place it in the boot would there then be room for a shallow roof box just to take the hull? I used to do this a long time ago with a 6ft model of HMS Neptune 1918 on the top of a mark one Ford Capri and it worked very well. I lined the box on the bottom and sides with carpet for protection.
Good luck with your build
Cheers
Geoff
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Geoff. I absolutely love your Iron Duke, but knowing how hard and long your development was and the mechanical complexity involved I could never replicate that in my dockyard.
Just to give you an idea of just how small the Vauxhall Agila is, check this photo link . . .
https://images.honestjohn.co.uk/imagecache/file/fit/730x700/media/3430341/Vauxhall~Agila~(9).jpg (https://images.honestjohn.co.uk/imagecache/file/fit/730x700/media/3430341/Vauxhall~Agila~(9).jpg)
The overall length is just on 3.7 m and the "boot" is barely able to contain a folded down pushchair trolley on its edge. Even with the headrests out I cannot squeeze a 2 x 6 ft sheet of plywood in there.
We are talking 84 inches, a seven foot hull. 11 inch beam and very tall.
Incidently, at our club we have seen several cars have their top boxes ripped off at the car park entrance, the most dramatic of which was a 4x4 Landrover with 4 bicycles on the roof, made more spectacular as he was in a hurry %%
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Ah, yes, I hadn't realised how small it was. Still would a low roof box fit under the height restriction?
Cheer
Geoff
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Car park height restriction is 2.00 m. (6 ft 7 inches). A distance of just 250 mm above my car roof height, or 5 inches less than the length of the hull. I had even considered MKI tank side sponsons for the passenger doors, but the MOT people might have got upset.
I am currently building a mock-up of the hull sections, demonstrating the support / join methodology described in my Post #1.
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Hmm, very close but a box may be do-able which would save complications in cutting the hull in two - either way good luck and I hope to see the build progress.
Cheers
Geoff
I know dig out the road beneath the height restriction!!! :-)
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The build is now committed. %% I have just ordered the hull from Dean's.
In the mean time I am building a half scale mock-up of the hull halves joining scheme described in my initial post. Nothing like having something in your hands to appreciate applied functionality. I am already working on some improvements using this 1:2 model as a test bed.
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Ooh, let's see!
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Just a thought, does the whole hull have to fit in there - with the front seat down and the rear seats flat - from the dashboard to the tailgate, the length is xxxx.00mm, how much would stick out the rear, with a solid construction vertical bar that plugs into the tailgate bottom connection and the tailgate lock mechanism, rendering the tail gate immobile, you could have the box for the hull sticking out without damaging it or it being damaged by the weather.
If you have the resources, and the technical knowhow the following could be done (the following is tongue in cheek but still a valid idea, that I believe no one has ever done).
1. a visit to a scrap yard to purchase a rear door / boot off a similar car van, also whilst there, ask for the bottom sill of the boot from which the door came from that includes the lock mechanism (the bit should have a cable connection that runs from the drivers seating area, you need the boot release lever as well).
2. Two steel tubes, one that slides into the other, both at least 1.5m long, plus some steel plate various thickness up to 5mm.
3. A sheet of leather / water proof material - whose length or size will become apparent shortly.
4. First - remove the window from the rear of the recycled door, remove the top and side portions that surrounded the window, mark and cut out the side parts so that the top edge looks square and neat, but only for the drivers side, the effect to aim for is a tailgate as found on a landrover.
Now, if it was fitted as is, it would not hold in place so a plate suitably rounded and deburred would need to be welded to the exposed inside top edge of the drivers side, angled and sufficiently enough to hold the right side using the inside profile of the boot plastic.
The passenger side of the rear tailgate is not needed - anything left of the lock (providing the boat box is no wider), so the gate is cut from the bottom of the gate to the window sill vertically, deburred and made good, except don't cut out all of the left, leave the bottom structural beam at the bottom and up the left side, remove the top part (or leave if the hull box will fit through i.e. cut a hole through the gate) repeat the retaining plate as for the right side but now for the left side.
So now the gate is locked in to the existing boot mechanism and stopped from falling outwards by the plate on the left and right, remember the cars tail gate is still above you (like when you see people taking the stuff to the tip). we have to secure the existing door to the new inserted tailgate, but not by rope, this is solid and mimics what the rope would do.
Take the old scrap sill from the other car and cut away all but the area around the locking mechanism, removing most of the cable but enough so that it can be used by the lever, two options, a single bar to the fixing position or a roll bar frame, I think the later would be better, fashioned from the smaller diameter bar (so more than the 1.5m) mitre joins or have bent into a roll bar the same widths as the gate, the larger diameter is cut into two equal lengths and each is welded to the top of the gate where the widow sides were, the angle at which they are fixed can be fixed or better still on brackets that allow them to go up to vertical, they have holes drilled in at equal distances for pins that will lock the roll bar tube to lock into - obviously the roll bar will slide into these tubes, so now we have a roll bar fixed to the top of the new gate and that can be swivelled up and will meet the existing door, as the existing door is brought down mark where on the roll bar the door mechanism would latch onto the sills lock, take the old sills lock and attach it by welding or bolting, using some 5mm plate create a pad for the lever to be attached.
The above means the cars existing door is now locked into a door mechanism, which is also locked into the cars existing mechanism, both should be secure, using plate create a locking support strap that will hold the hull box so that it moves up and down effectively with the car, that wont allow the box to slide out of the car.
The above could be done with a single bar with plates welded to hold the door mechanism, both can swivel so that they remain in the same position as the door would, and in place at the top and bottom, holding the door in many different stages of openness and adjusted by the sliding tube locked in different positions.
and the waterproof material
well it would cover any holes, like a open top car, trailer, shaped and secured with similar ways - bungee or poppers, tailored to suit.
any comments would be greatly received - as said this is tongue in cheek.
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Just a thought, does the whole hull have to fit in there - with the front seat down and the rear seats flat -
Stop right there. The front seat does not fold flat, only tilts forward to about 45 degrees. And, no, it would involve booking garage visits to remove then replace the whole seat for each sailing session. Even then it would not fit. My HMS Polyphemus in its carry box is 1.32 m, and that involves putting the rear seats down and squeezing it in diagonally, almost touching the rear door. Agincourt is a full 2.14 m hull - without a box. An extra twenty inches, almost two foot.
The solution has to be practical, as is the method I am adopting. With the rear seats folded down I have a flat space 1.2 m wide x 0.9 m forwards. With the hull in half you have two sections 1.08 m x 282 No point cutting the car in half when the sections will fit side by side on the rear seats.
I was not going to publish my half scale mock-up just yet as I am still at an early stage with it. However, even this early picture should illustrate the principles.
(http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n626/bobkiralfy/HMS%20Agincourt/mock-up-1_zps0ibesgej.jpg) (http://s1143.photobucket.com/user/bobkiralfy/media/HMS%20Agincourt/mock-up-1_zps0ibesgej.jpg.html)
Heavy duty tubes go through three bulkheads in each half. Heavy duty close fitting rods (removable for transit) provide a spine support across the hull halves, in a triangular section like a building site crane boom. Depending on how tests on the mock-up go, either one or two H.D. adjustable toggle clamps to hold the sections tightly together.
I will probably epoxy ribs between the tubes and inside of the hull for additional bracing, and seal the inside ends of the tubes so the sections remain fully watertight.
It will be stronger than a one-piece hull, and only takes a couple of minutes to install lakeside.
No fiddling about on your knees with bolts nuts and washers.
Clunk-click. Plenty of room for SLA batteries and four motors in there.
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I think elegant is the word Bob.
Where are you going to fit the toggle clamps?
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Thank you ballastanksian. More like all that is left when all other options have been ruled out.
Toggle latches are one reason I am making the 1:2 scale mock up. At present I envisage 9mm bulkheads on the join faces, making up a new "hook" plate to go through the forward join bulkhead so the load is taken on the forward face. A reinforced platform between the first two bulkheads aft would carry the actual toggle latch.
Ideally I would like the line of action close to the midpoint of the triangle of tubes, but I may have to offset it down a bit to make sure I have clearance for the "Tuesday" and "Wednesday" turret mechanisms.
I intend to make the rear superstructure removable for access to motors, shafts and turrets, with enough room to get my hand in to operate/adjust the toggle latch.
Early days yet, but I have reached a point where I believe it is possible.
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Displacement
Next problem is the models displacement, and my ability to lift it. So far no figures on sailing weight for the prototype, so a basic calculation is needed to estimate it.
27,850 long tons is about 28,296,906 kg. Divide by 96, then divide by 96, and divide by 96 again. 1/96 is the scale and we need the cube root of that. I make that 32 kg total. Ouch !
Even if the unballasted model weighs 10 Kg it is going to need around 22 kg of extra ballast to bring it to the waterline. Allowing for two 12V 8 Ah SLA batteries ( 6 kg ) in the rear half I still need an extra 16 kg or so
I would rather put that in after I lift it into the water, and preferably without having to kneel down at the water’s edge. That is 16 litres of water, which I can pump aboard after launching. I am hoping that my water ballasting experiences with Polyphemus will help here. I could use two compartments in the forward half, suitably water-tight, with a bi-directional pump and sealed micro-switch float valves.
Removing around 16 kg at launch leaves about 16 kg to lift – manageable.
The pumping system would be the subject of a separate R&D exercise as the above is very approximate.
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If your two sections are fully watertight and able to float independently, you could assemble AFTER launching Reducing the launch weight in two. I can do this with Ohio. If I am on my own, the model is too heavy to launch and recover, however, I can disconnect the aft RC section, the rest is launchable and recoverable.
One thing to consider is your stand. Make it long enough to support both sections of the hull. If you assemble it dry, you do not want to be putting too many undue stresses on the hull, as you assemble or separate it. What you want to avoid is a situation where the fore and aft parts try to tip as they come apart. More stresses on the hull joins. This could be sorted by ballasting the hull sections accordingly. Just an observation based on our exploding merchant ship. This has a long stand to take the load off of the weak hull joint ( a pencil, tell no one!!).
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To minimise stress it would be ideal if both halves, when ballasted, floated at their waterlines.
...I can imagine a situation where, for example, a 'nose-heavy' bow and a 'tail-heavy' stern would, when assembled, float correctly, but constantly stress the joint.
Andy
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As above, much better explained and with far fewer words than I used :-))
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Ideally, both halves, when ballasted, should float close to their waterlines. However, it is imperative that the halves are joined before lowering into the water. I cannot kneel by the waters edge, so trying to thread long rods under water and fiddle with clamps on my knees would be as impossible as fiddling with bolts nuts and washers between just two bulkheads (nowhere near as strong).
Once the long rods are slid home and the clamp is latched it will be stronger than a one piece hull, but around 15 kg lighter as much of the ballast will be water added after launch, and pumped out before recovery.
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Evening Bob....I went thru with you with unfledgling support .....word by word, line by line {:-{ , page by page >>:-( , and month by month %) with your build of the brilliant semi submersible Polyphemus as I always knew there was the light at the end of the tunnel O0
I wish you well with this new planned build........and will be reading and watching................. Derek
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Greatly appreciated Derek. I know it will not be easy, and that is the challenge. I expect a lot of mid course corrections along the way, a steep learning curve.
At least I can ballast test each half in the bath separately !
This is a ship I really want to build and sail, dodgy legs and all %%
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I'm no engineer, I'm no technician but it seems, to me at least, that some kind of lifting gantry may be called for. (Your problem seems to be somewhat akin to that experienced by TigerTiger, but without the massive drop).
My first thoughts are along the lines of lifeboat davits but without the need to be affixed to chains/pulleys. A pair of good lifting strops might then be utilised and the gantry pushed (wheeled) to the lake edge. The bottom frame would just be a basic frame with the "davits" affixed to it and removable for transportation.
Hope this helps to get the thoughts into gear...
Regards,
Ray.
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This would do the job - only problem is how do you transport it!!!
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Displacement
Before we get carried away, I believe the launch weight is practical without resorting to heavy lifting gear.
My HMS Polyphemus has a dry weight of 11 kg. With ballast tanks full that is an extra 3 kg, but I don’t have to lift that. 11 kg is quite manageable with basic lifting straps.
If I can get HMS Agincourt to around 16 kg dry I will be able to manage lifting that, it is only 5 kg more than the Poly’. The key to practical liftability will be pumping in/out 16 kg of water ballast afterwards. The same principle as Polyphemus, but a lot more water.
However, at this stage the actual sailing weight of the prototype needs to be confirmed, then I can work out how much can be water ballast vs internal equipment. All R&D right now.
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Watching this with great interest Bob, should keep you busy for a few weeks %) %) %%
Joe
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Here we go again, if a section of the deck is removed to secure the latches and the tubes on the mock up are exposed, then why not make the tubes the lifting handles - turn the three point fixing system upside down.
Oh and the open rear door system is already employed for a pet - it leaves the rear open just enough for the air to circulate without opening the car up to thieves.
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To balance the water between the two hulls in a similar manner to a jaguar Xj6's two fuel tanks, replace the bottom tubes and rod with wider tubes and a telescoping connecting tube to slide into them both joining the hulls together and also providing pump free water transfer. have baffles at each end of the housing tubes to stop any 'hunting' caused by a rapid stop or similar forward/reverse motion. With a good fit, there should be no more issue with water surge between the hulls than in any normal operation. With an internal water tight link between the halves, you might only need one pump.
I doodled a small diagram which also gave me the idea that the upper connecting tubes should be sealed at the ends to stop any seepage from the join between the hulls getting into the halves possibly causing much dissagreement with electrickery. Hopefully the holes for the retainers will also double as vacuum release for when inserting or removing the rods.
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/922/4vY1bo.png) (https://imageshack.com/i/pm4vY1bop)
Obviously the digram does not include the drive train compartment or how you plan to house this along with the water tight compartments.
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Thanks for all the ideas, with varying levels of practicality, but it shows you are all thinking about it.
Cheers !
Mock-up
The half scale mock-up of the joining sections of the ship went well, highlighting some improvements that will be incorporated into the construction method.
A roughly half scale toggle latch proved more than adequate to securely clamp the interfacing 9 mm bulkheads together, with the removable rods giving more than adequate stiffness and support. The aim being to provide at least the same strength as the one-piece “U” channel section of the GRP hull.
An adjustable latch will be essential as even a tiny slackness in the joint will impair strength,
The hull is on order from Dean’s, and I will discuss cutting the hull with Ron at Wicksteed. I have asked Ron if they could lay up an extra layer of GRP on the inside of the centre section. So, it may be a few weeks until I can arrange cutting and collection just in case you think this thread goes quiet for a bit.
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Thanks for the update Bob. Your sequential planning should ensure a good quality build and hopefully many, many hours of pleasure when the actual build goes ahead.
Regards,
Ray.
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Thank you Ray.
I've just unrolled the plans across the living room to double check the length then measure the cutting point, 48.9% from the tip of bow. But - Heck that really brought home just how darned big it is {:-{
I must be totally crazy.
"Money can't buy you happiness, but it can build you a boat big enough to tie up alongside it"
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We all need one crazy project O0
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’Arthur boat is better than one
The more I think about it, the more cutting the Agincourt hull in half appeals to me.
Each half can be built separately, bath tested, and ballasting systems be developed and tried indoors. The two half ships will fit side by side on my car’s back seats, folded down. Two 1,075 mm ships are a lot easier to manage, and to get from the workshop to the car, although at the lake it may mean two trips from the car park to the water. My existing Silver Cross trolley should be amply large enough.
Now here is a silly idea ! I could build a short blunt false bow, like an oil tanker, to attach onto the interfacing spigots, so that I can do a maiden voyage test on just the back end.
Plenty of scope for puns such as commanded by a Rear Admiral with a stern expression, saluting with his hand - but no bow. I might even christen it HMS “…court”.
The front end, HMS "Agin...", needs only ballasting simulations. No point in building a powered short stern unit add-on for that.
The one outstanding question remains - how heavy will the sailing weight of the original prototype be. My calculations reckon 32 kg, but I could be wrong. I really need to get the “lift” weight down to 16 kg before pumping in water. Fingers crossed, hopefully it may be at Wicksteed this weekend.
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Agincourt displaced about 28,000 tons so the model at 1:96 should displace 0.03 tons or about 60lb or 27kg standard load.
Colin
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Thank you Colin. I was working on 27,850 long tons, but I'd be happy with 27 kg. :-))
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Depends on how accurate the hull is though! The reality with warships of that era is that displacement varied a lot depending on their loading and it was common for them to get heavier and heavier as they got older with additions and even the weight of the paint! Hood was regarded as being almost waterlogged at the time of her loss I believe.
I would think you have quite a bit of leeway to play with really. However big models do pose their own problems. I normally only build small ones but my recently completed fishery cruiser is four feet long and quite a handful (or should I say kneeful) to launch and recover. You are quite right to anticipate these issues well in advance.
Colin
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In reference to the above... After HMS Porcupine was torpedoed the two halves stayed afloat, these were salvaged and used as 'HMS Pork' and 'HMS Pine'
This should be a great build! Really interesting ship with a great history. The large ships are really awkward at 2m... Very easy to knock bits off as they tend to swing around when transported, so splitting it should be a good solution.
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Destroyers Zulu and Nubian
became Zubian sticking the
Best bits of each together
after battle damage.
Ned
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Seeing the hull yesterday at the show, it did cause a stir, especially as Bob didn't know that Ron 'Mr Mischeif' Dean had brought it with him to show him!
Several of us distracted Bob while Ron brought it down all subtle like. It got it's first pond test and took all of Ron Kingdon's ballast blocks that he uses for his Rodney- namely 32kilos. I hope someone took a few pictures as it is impressive. Taking it out, I found it difficult not to start doing a slapstick performance, it was so big.
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Yes Ballastanksian, Ron Dean certainly pulled a surprise bringing my new Agincourt hull to Wicksteed as a surprise. Sad that he had to take it away again because we need to arrange a date for me to go up to his workshop for cutting in half so that I can get it home.
(http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n626/bobkiralfy/HMS%20Agincourt/Ballasted%20hull_zpszywcdhac.jpg) (http://s1143.photobucket.com/user/bobkiralfy/media/HMS%20Agincourt/Ballasted%20hull_zpszywcdhac.jpg.html)
To get it to the waterline 16 x 4 lbf lead blocks were inserted. That is 29 kg, a bit less than calculated.
I can't wait :}
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I am not surprised Bob!
For what it's worth, if you cut 244mm from the middle, you can make a KGV (1911) from the hull. Other mods might need to be made but the basic form is there.
I look forward to seeing the hull cutting photos.
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"You're gonna need a bigger boat !"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKxsW8DKJQQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKxsW8DKJQQ)
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Or more importantly - a bigger car {-)
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There is story here of course. I used to have a much larger car. Hyundai Lantra saloon. 17 years old, 25 mpg, high tax and insurance, plus increasing repair costs to keep getting it through the MOT. However, no seats folded down and despite a fair sized boot it did not lend itself to being used as a van.
So, when I retired at 67 I invested in a nice little Agila. 1 Litre, £10 tax, cheap insurance and 50 mpg. The width across the back seats was only two inches less than the Lantra. It should last me the rest of my driving years.
The car is not the issue. I simply cannot manhandle a heavy 2.2 metre boat, either from the house to the car, or from the car to the lakeside, especially on my own.
The other issue is weight. Lifting a 64 lbf ship is out of the question, as is kneeling by the waters edge (at my age and infirmity). I have already stated that the car park at our lake will not allow trailers, and there is a 2 metre height restriction bar at the car park entrance - so no top box, even if I could heave the boat up there.
The object of this project is to be able to own and sail a mega sized dreadnaught. I believe it is possible, but only by using ingenuity and improvisation.
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There is story here of course. I used to have a much larger car. Hyundai Lantra saloon. 17 years old, 25 mpg, high tax and insurance, plus increasing repair costs to keep getting it through the MOT. However, no seats folded down and despite a fair sized boot it did not lend itself to being used as a van.
So, when I retired at 67 I invested in a nice little Agila. 1 Litre, £10 tax, cheap insurance and 50 mpg. The width across the back seats was only two inches less than the Lantra. It should last me the rest of my driving years.
The car is not the issue. I simply cannot manhandle a heavy 2.2 metre boat, either from the house to the car, or from the car to the lakeside, especially on my own.
The other issue is weight. Lifting a 64 lbf ship is out of the question, as is kneeling by the waters edge (at my age and infirmity). I have already stated that the car park at our lake will not allow trailers, and there is a 2 metre height restriction bar at the car park entrance - so no top box, even if I could heave the boat up there.
The object of this project is to be able to own and sail a mega sized dreadnaught. I believe it is possible, but only by using ingenuity and improvisation.
Ingenuity and improvisation AND quotes from JAWS...you are going to the top of my Christmas list.....however, with that photo of the hull, you are going to need something in the foreground for scale though..................... %)
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Ingenuity and improvisation AND quotes from JAWS...you are going to the top of my Christmas list.....however, with that photo of the hull, you are going to need something in the foreground for scale though..................... %)
Tee Hee Unbuiltnautilus {-) I could hang my little HMS Royal Marine armed trawler on davits?
Here is one that Ron K built earlier. I doubt if mine will look a tenth as good as his, but I will do my best.
(http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n626/bobkiralfy/HMS%20Agincourt/Ron-Ks-Agincourt-at-Mayhem_zpsqozqwuvl.jpg) (http://s1143.photobucket.com/user/bobkiralfy/media/HMS%20Agincourt/Ron-Ks-Agincourt-at-Mayhem_zpsqozqwuvl.jpg.html)
Now, to get really silly. Also seen at Wicksteed on Sunday was Geoff's amazing gun fire system on his HMS Iron Duke. We did have a long chat about how it worked.
(http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n626/bobkiralfy/HMS%20Agincourt/Iron-Duke_zps7dkln2tm.jpg) (http://s1143.photobucket.com/user/bobkiralfy/media/HMS%20Agincourt/Iron-Duke_zps7dkln2tm.jpg.html)
Would it be going totally O.T.T. to not only have the Arduino constant bearing turret rotation system on board, but to get at least one gun in each of the 3 groups to blast smoke as well? Getting all seven turrets firing would involve far too many big SLA batteries.
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It will be a few weeks until I can go up to Deans to cut the hull in half so I can bring it home. I intend getting a photo of the hull on top of my car first as a size comparison.
In the mean time I am just dreaming and planning %%
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Looking at the pictures of Geoff's turret innards, the thermistor and plumbing should fit into a slightly smaller 12 inch turret and still provide room for insulation. As Geoff only fitted one barrel of each turret with a smoke system you will be Ok in the power department and would not need to worry about the other seven barrels.
If you wanted to test the systems without comitting to all seven turrets, is it worth pushing ahead with your Monitor and then develop the systems on the one turret to confirm that smoke and control can be fitted in the one turret on a floating hull in 'combat' conditons?? You could also test out water ballasting ideas as well given the monitor's immense bouancy and stability.
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A short interlude whilst I wait to go to Peterborough for hull cutting.
In the mean time, why this will not be a quick build (please have patience), and deciding which configuration to build Agincourt to - As built, or final version.
Expect a longish build time
There are good reasons why I am rarely able to build a new design in 3 months, unless it is a kit. I am 71 this month, so I have to ration out my building expenditure from my two pensions – whilst having to pay the bills as well. Buying an ultra economic ECO car does mean I can spend a bit more on boats rather than wasting it on big car running expenses.
The other reason is that I don’t like to cut corners on cheapo parts. I want four nice Raboesch watertight propshafts with bearings and seals, decent quality brass props, Action ESC’s and mixer, reliable batteries and torquey motors etc. I know the fittings list will be very extensive. Like the ambitious nut I am I aim to fit the full 7 turret Arduino system, plus Geoff’s gun smoke conversion if possible.
Having costed it all I need to budget that out over 8 to 10 months. Realistically I could spend a month laying 170 metres of 3 mm deck planking, and another month drilling and soldering 5 metres of stanchions. Unfortunately I have a passion for detailing, which all takes further time and materials.
Which Configuration?
As built, HMS Agincourt (or Rio de Janeiro, or Sultan Osman 1 Evvel). The ship was originally built for Brazil but when their economy collapsed and they could not cancel the order they sold it to Turkey. It is moot whether the Admiralty knew of alliance discussions between Turkey and Germany, but when WW1 broke out the ship had just left the shipyard for sea trials. Whatever, it is known that that our government kept her at sea for quite a while, while Turkey had their crew waiting to take possession.
Churchill ordered that the Turkish crew were to be denied boarding, by force if necessary. Britain took over the ship and renamed it HMS Agincourt.
Britain decided to bring her in for modifications. Fearing that damage to the flying decks could put the centre pair of turrets out of action these were removed, as was the aft tripod mast, the anti-torpedo nets, and the top masts greatly reduced. Turkish toilet facilities were changed to Navy standards. However, many of the names plates for machinery remained in Turkish.
My dilemma was whether to build the model “as built” or after the modifications. Technically she was still the property of Armstrong until after her trials and acceptance by the Navy. However, I do like the flying decks, torpedo nets and lofty topmasts.
As Built
(http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n626/bobkiralfy/HMS%20Agincourt/Agincourt%20as%20built_zps9pahxtth.jpg) (http://s1143.photobucket.com/user/bobkiralfy/media/HMS%20Agincourt/Agincourt%20as%20built_zps9pahxtth.jpg.html)
As in 1918
(http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n626/bobkiralfy/HMS%20Agincourt/Agincourt%20in%201918_zpsnhxvjv2h.jpg) (http://s1143.photobucket.com/user/bobkiralfy/media/HMS%20Agincourt/Agincourt%20in%201918_zpsnhxvjv2h.jpg.html)
One significant problem as a model is that the seven large ships boats previously carried on the flying decks ended up being stowed around the centre turrets, making them effectively inoperable without lowering them all over the side. Getting to action stations must have taken ages. Were they towed behind? No idea.
Ships Boats
(http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n626/bobkiralfy/HMS%20Agincourt/ships-boats_zpsvbyeowcx.jpg) (http://s1143.photobucket.com/user/bobkiralfy/media/HMS%20Agincourt/ships-boats_zpsvbyeowcx.jpg.html)
So, in the interests of making a handsome looking model, and being able to train and fire all 12 inch guns, I have settled on the original configuration, as per Ron K's prototype, even though technically she may never have flown the White Ensign until after the modifications.
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My belief is that many of the Grand Fleet Battleships unshipped their boats before putting out to sea dependent on the layout. Iron Duke has boats either side of the second funnel on davits and there is no way Q turret could fire without damaging them. Superfluous boats were almost certainly tied to the buoys and collected on return as otherwise you are only taking "splinters" to a sea battle!
A lot of the German Battleships were similar and their boats would have been destroyed by gun blast the moment they opened fire so unless they liked replacing boats they would also have unshipped them.
Big ships often had lots of boats as they anchored in the big harbours - crew transfers and stores going on all the time, a constant replenishment process so you can model them with or without boats.
Cheers
Geoff
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Geoff: That sounds very likely, although I have never read anything about this. Towing around ten boats behind at 21 kts in any kind of sea would have them smashing together or capsizing. Maybe that's why Agincourt had her flying bridges removed, as if the boats were removed before putting out to sea any shell damage to the flying bridges could have disabled the turrets underneath. Some of them looked quite large, more like armed picket boats.
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The standard steam picket boat would have been 50 feet long! Scale is deceptive!
Cheers
Geoff
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On Ron K's prototype there are two quite large steam boats with guns on the forward half of the flying deck.
The after half has five boats, including another armed steam launch.
(http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n626/bobkiralfy/HMS%20Agincourt/boats%20detail_zps07fnxqvn.jpg) (http://s1143.photobucket.com/user/bobkiralfy/media/HMS%20Agincourt/boats%20detail_zps07fnxqvn.jpg.html)
Each of the two flying decks measures 63 feet on the plans, so quite large boats.
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I've seen reports that the flying decks aren't solid but are a series of spaced girders - I'll try to check and see if I have any pictures of Agincourt - it may be in the book "The Big Battleship"?
Cheers
Geoff
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I have that on order Geoff. Sounds a good book :-))
Any and all information welcome
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I would go for her in her wartime guise Bob. It will benefit you in having less to build, and fewer boats which can take ages to build.
Ommitting the nets will also make her an easier model to transport and dock as will having the shorter masts.
The costs will be reduced to an extent as well providing budget for more important things such as telemetry and thermistors etc.
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The logic in your reply is very sound ballastanksian.
However, I love detailing and the original configuration looks delicious O0
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I have made up a measuring jig, and bought some Dremel diamond-dust cutting wheels. I can’t wait until I can go up to Peterborough for the ceremonial hull cutting, and bring her home. Once she is on my slipway I will be changing my Avatar.
Just finished reading The Big Battleship by Richard Hough. Fascinating insights on the ship’s story. For instance the Designer, Sir Eustace Tennyson d'Eyncourt, as a child was a model boat enthusiast. Enthralled by big warships even then he built models of them to sail on a nearby lake.
In the mean time I have a flag quandary
I have decided to build Agincourt as built, before the modifications the Admiralty carried out before she joined the Fleet at Scapa. Brazil had sold the ship to Turkey and the Turkish crew were en route to take her over when the war broke out. Completion ‘seemed’ endlessly delayed despite increasing staff and working 24/7.
The ship finally left Armstrong’s shipyard to commence sea trials crewed by dockyard personnel plus Turkish workers/trainees. She was still missing two 12 inch guns and all ammunition. The Admiralty had got wind of Turkey’s impending treaty with Germany so ordered her to stay at sea until further notice. From the Tyne to Devonport, then back to Armstrong’s via speed trials north of the Tyne. Churchill issued instructions that the Turkish crew newly arrived were to be prevented from going aboard, by force if necessary.
Interestingly, Armstrong's knew what was impending as thousands of Portuguese tally plates on machinery being replaced for Turkish ones were engraved in English on their reverse sides.
Here is the dilemma. With no RN personnel on board for Trials she should only have flown the Red Ensign at sea. When Britain eventually took over the ship, still moored at Armstrong’s, the flying bridges and torpedo nets were immediately removed and Turkish style toilets replaced with Navy style ones – before setting sail for Scapa.
I may well get flak from rivet counters, but I will be flying a large White Ensign from a gaff on the main mast.
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It's your model so it's your rules Bob based on research and historical precedent. Likewise, I would only say it was a quandry if you did not have sufficient information to make the informed decision that you have come to. History has dictated that, because of certain situations at certain times based upon your building decisions, it has to be a certain way.
One question I have is: What colour would she have been completed in? She was ordered by Brazil and was then sold to Turkey. Did the UK ship builders say:
'Our warships are built in so and so colour unless otherwise specified by the customer?
Or:
'You can have your warship in any shade of grey you like as long as it is that which we have as our standard warship colour'?
Either are logical.
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One question I have is: What colour would she have been completed in? She was ordered by Brazil and was then sold to Turkey.
Quite probably, as you say, standard battleship grey, U.O.S. on the contract.
She was not repainted when taken over so must have been Standard Admiralty Hobson's Choice grey.
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I think Humbrol Slate Grey wouldn't be far of the mark. In terms of solid/open flying decks. I have found in my collection conflicting plans for Colossus and Neptune. One set shows a solid deck and the other shows the turrets underneath so an open deck with walkways. Hmm, not very helpful there!
Cheers
Geoff
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A bit darker than ww2 grey. Colossus had 'boat decks', having the after one removed around 1915. Neptune's are referred to as 'boat girders'. I am going with 'decks' and leaving them in. Probably light plating over only.
I know they were taken off before joining the fleet, but I like them.
PS: Going up to Dean's this weekend. I can't wait O0
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Two (m) into one will go
The day finally arrived for me to go up to Dean’s for some serious hull cutting.
First, a picture showing quite clearly this 7 ft hull was never going to fit into my little car as it is.
(http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n626/bobkiralfy/HMS%20Agincourt/on-roof-2_zpsasubthll.jpg) (http://s1143.photobucket.com/user/bobkiralfy/media/HMS%20Agincourt/on-roof-2_zpsasubthll.jpg.html)
Equipped with my faithful Rotacraft drill fitted with Dremel diamond-dust cutting disks and my improvised measuring jig the hull was marked out over masking tape to protect the surface.
This is how to fit it into my car !
Yep! That fits nicely. Two into one does go.
(http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n626/bobkiralfy/HMS%20Agincourt/two-into-one_zpsjsnms1st.jpg) (http://s1143.photobucket.com/user/bobkiralfy/media/HMS%20Agincourt/two-into-one_zpsjsnms1st.jpg.html)
I had spent the week preparing my tiny workshop for the biggest build imaginable. Quite a bit of reorganisation, clearing out unnecessary gear and adding additional storage. The workbench is not much longer than one hull-half at a time, so I built a raised platform 1.8 m long. Enough to align the two halves accurately, albeit with 200 mm over at each end.
(http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n626/bobkiralfy/HMS%20Agincourt/on-bench_zpsp7lexvjb.jpg) (http://s1143.photobucket.com/user/bobkiralfy/media/HMS%20Agincourt/on-bench_zpsp7lexvjb.jpg.html)
Now that is a workable slipway. You can just see the cut line, Came out quite nicely, although it looks more like a canoe !
I wonder if Armstrong’s Shipyard had to extend their slipway before building this leviathan ?
Each time I need to refer to the plans it may mean clearing the living room.
Next steps will take time. I need to source various plywood thicknesses in sizes I can get in my car. Unfortunately most come in huge sheets. I may have to make a list and have manageable sections cut. Then will come sourcing the structural gauge stainless sliding telescopic tubes, 1.000 inch & 1.125 inch diameters.
I feel quite chuffed O0 This huge seven turret Dreadnaught is finally underway :-))
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Just to give you a sense of scale here, inside is my last build HMS Royal Marine, also 1/96 scale.
(http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n626/bobkiralfy/HMS%20Agincourt/Royal-Marine-inside_zpslfxocept.jpg) (http://s1143.photobucket.com/user/bobkiralfy/media/HMS%20Agincourt/Royal-Marine-inside_zpslfxocept.jpg.html)
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That last picture reminds me of the image of two small gun monitors beng built on the inner skin of a cancelled cruise liner hull that is in the Buxton book.
I am pleased that surgery went to plan, and very cleanly too by the look of things.
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That's one impressive hull Bob, regarding the plywood and timber it may be worth giving www.slecuk.com (http://www.slecuk.com) a try, they have excellent quality wood profiles and ply, they supply cut ply up to a thickness of 12mm on their online shop and post up to 20kg per posting, if you want thicker ply you can call them direct on Orderline: 01953 885279 for bulk purchases, I have used them a few times and found their service and prices really good. the good thing is you can get all the bits of ply to the size you want without having to buy 8' x 4' sheets,
hope it's of some help.
Joe
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Congrats Bob, I guess you found out how tough cutting a GRP hull can be like I did but you've done an excellent separation job. Can't wait to see your next move. :-))
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Thank you chaps. That wood company looks very good on prices for modelling sized timber and ply. It's mainly the bulkheads, supports and deck bases. DIY store sheet sizes are OK for house builders, but ....
Thank you for the link.
I have found a source for the 16 swg walled telescopic stainless tubes. www.metals4u.co.uk (http://www.metals4u.co.uk) Not cheap, but they need to be both structurally strong and able to take water. I may fit teak dowel rods inside the removable tubes for additional reinforcing.
I would recommend the Dremel SC545 cutting discs, especialy with 'RAF quality' fibreglass. Very hard and tough. Ron Dean layed up extra thicknesses around the centre section. Using masking tape helped keep the cut clean and avoided risk of the disc skittering across the finish. Some careful linishing on a large board with wet & dry paper glued to it for a final tidy. However, it came out better than I expected. Obviously lightly cutting part way through, then leaving the two edges and curve-corners till last to keep it from snapping under the weight.
Nick: I took notes from your methodology for Invincible, but used diamond-dust wheels instead of carbide.
I have already just sat here looking at it for hours, but nothing else is going to get done in this shipyard until I get the build underway. The "elephant in the room" is going to ensure I don't get distracted.
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Very good job there Bob and thank you for posting the pics, especially that last one, gives a good idea of dimensions. :o
...oh, and your new Avatar is most appropriate. :-))
Regards,
Ray.
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A very nice clean job Bob and a tribute to Mr Dean. It's going to be a cracker.
I can certainly agree with Joe about SLEC. I collected wood from them not so long ago and they were very friendly and efficient.
Cheers
Tony
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On order
Laser Birch ply on order from www.selecuk.co.uk (http://www.selecuk.co.uk). Thank you Joe for the link.
Using 9 mm for secondary bulkheads, doubling up to 18 mm for the hull interfaces.
Six support bulkheads spaced at approx. 250 mm, extending for one metre total across the two hull halves.
Six metres of 1/16” wall thickness stainless steel telescopic tubing ordered from www.metals4u.co.uk (http://www.metals4u.co.uk), that is 3 m each of one inch and 7/8 inch o/d. I settled for these sizes as it is easier to source hardwood dowel of 3/4 inch dia to reinforce the inner tube. The tubing came to £80 but with free delivery that really helps. They need to support the weight, provide stiffness, and be water friendly.
Linishing.
(http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n626/bobkiralfy/HMS%20Agincourt/linishing_zpspkcqzmoc.jpg) (http://s1143.photobucket.com/user/bobkiralfy/media/HMS%20Agincourt/linishing_zpspkcqzmoc.jpg.html)
To finish off the cut edges on the hull halves I made up a ply board with medium wet & dry paper glued to it, held down with weighted boards whilst the glue set. Applying water to the flat gritty surface I carefully moved the cut face in a gentle circular motion. It didn’t need much, but now I have perfect join edges to align with the 18 mm hull joint bulkheads. The grit board will come in handy I know.
The critical part of this will be to get everything to line up accurately, allowing for profile changes along the inner hull over a total distance of one metre. ie: Half a metre into each half hull, with the removable tubes one metre long.
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My HMS Penelope needs to be built in two halves so I will watch your progress with great attention to detail. It is a bit easier building from scratch as I can draw the frames as given on the plan in one block and mark for things like tubes, rods and the like.
I take it that your sanding was very minimal as I have found that it only takes an extra sweep or two and the edge has gotten a bit bowed. The Destroyer was cut and shut without sanding as the glue took up the irregularities (I used a rawor saw and it did not waver).
I am trying to work out a simple way of fitting your location system, obviously as a suggestion.
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I now have the plywood, and the tubing. I was worried that a hacksaw might struggle with the 1/16 inch wall thickness of the stainless, but it did cut it OK.
Whew ! I had visions of having to buy an angle grinder.
Too long
I thought they were rather long when my order for stainless telescopic tubing arrived. I had ordered 3 m each of 1 inch and 7/8 inch o/d. These are for the inter-hull support structures. Well, I duly cut a metre off the one inch tube, then another, but when I came to cutting the third length I found there seemed to be a huge length remaining. After measuring the “offcut” and the 7/8 dia tube I found they had sent me SIX metres of each.
I called Metals4U to check, and to notify them that their stock levels may be out. They were very nice about it and said I could keep the extra 3 m of each.
So, anyone else thinking about joining a seven foot ship using stainless telescopic tubing is more than welcome to collect them from me F.O.C.
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Tubes
I now have the stainless steel tubes cut. Six lengths of 475 mm for the outer one inch tubes, plus three lengths of 900 mm for the inner 7/8 inch tubes. In the end the lengths were determined by the barbette positions from the plans. Total weight of tubes 4.27 kg, or 14% of final sailing weight.
(http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n626/bobkiralfy/HMS%20Agincourt/cut-tubes_zpsu8f539qj.jpg) (http://s1143.photobucket.com/user/bobkiralfy/media/HMS%20Agincourt/cut-tubes_zpsu8f539qj.jpg.html)
Bulkheads
Now comes the tricky bit. The bulkheads. Getting these spot on, including aligning all holes for tubes, will be absolutely critical. I need the key inner interfacing bulkheads 18 mm for strength, so I am making four at 9 mm to glue together as pairs. Getting the profiles for these four is straightforward as with the hull cut in half I can copy the profile direct from the cut hull end and make four the same.
Outboard of these will be two 9 mm ply sections for each half, at approx. 238 mm spacing.
See picture of half scale mock up :-
(http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n626/bobkiralfy/HMS%20Agincourt/mock-up-2_zpsugpznigd.jpg) (http://s1143.photobucket.com/user/bobkiralfy/media/HMS%20Agincourt/mock-up-2_zpsugpznigd.jpg.html)
Getting an accurate profile of these outboard bulkheads is the difficulty, as all are different, with the hull tapering slightly and varied inside curves. Luckily the keel face is flat and horizontal over the distance required so that face is the main datum. The edges must not only match the varying profile but with the tube holes exactly aligned and a good fit.
First bulkhead dry-fitted for size, to be copied for the other three inner ones.
(http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n626/bobkiralfy/HMS%20Agincourt/first-bulkhead_zpsxeu0iuen.jpg) (http://s1143.photobucket.com/user/bobkiralfy/media/HMS%20Agincourt/first-bulkhead_zpsxeu0iuen.jpg.html)
When I have figured out how to profile the outer four 9 mm bulkheads I intend clamping all six together to drill the one inch holes. Taking into account the hull narrowing and keeping clear of the secondary armament positions. The two rearmost bulkheads will be 25 mm less in height to suit the lower after main deck.
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If you can maintain a 'fit' like that for the others and drill the holes exactly, I don't think you'll have too many issues.
Are you thinking along the lines of a couple of blobs of Araldite on each bulkhead, with the steel rods in place, to tack the bulkheads to the hull, before removing the rods and gf-ing the bulkheads permanently?
I'm enjoying this!
Andy
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Thank you Andy. Glad you are enjoying this O0 I am sweating hot conkers. %%
The initial 'central' bulkheads are relatively straightforward, although I am spending a lot of time getting them right.
It is when I come to the others I am thinking of making piece by piece templates for them, unless someone more experienced out there can give me some pointers.
Providing I can get all the edge profiles correct, and assuming they will be symmetrical side to side, I aim to clamp (or even dowel) all eight together to drill the one inch holes. Then hopefully I can dry assemble it all together in the hull with the tubes, re-checking it all works, before trying to fix anything in place. Then (maybe) using a very large amount of Plasticine (and maybe) Duct tape before tacking in place with Araldite as you say.
The short outer tubes will be structurally integral, and will be f/glassed in. Only the long inner tubes are removable.
It will need to be assembled in the hull so I can keep re-checking all the alignments as I carefully tack it together step by step.
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An idea I had forseeing ths issue with getting the bulkheads spot on in level as well as the tubes paralell was one of two options (beyond super dooper accuracy).
Both depend on in built sloppiness!
1. Make the bulkheads 3mm too small on the hull sides and bottom. Mark the centres of each bulkhead and the pattern of the tubes layout. Clamp them together including a partition (an oblong of .5mm aluminium sheet or another non absorbant material that cannot be damaged by Car body filler) between the two bulkheads that form the split. Drill the holes. Fit inner and outer tubes through the holes setting the bulkheads up at the right distances apart. Square up and glue tubes in. Remember to keep the thin plate in place when you do this. Test mix some filler to obtain the longest application time available to you. Then apply filler to all your bulkheads, push the hull halves almost together and install structure butting hull halves against the partition making sure they are level in all aspects. Check bulkheads to see that the filler is evenly appplied and apply more where needed and let cure. Tidy up, check hull separation point for any adhesion between the two hull halves and separate the halves before removing the partirion. Tidy edges and rejoin halves.
2. Make your bulkheads as you are, but cut out an oblong in each one sufficiently large that it would accomodate the tubes. Then cut enough oblongs of your bulkhead material to provide each bulkhead with one making them 3mm smaller all round. The partition is needed again to make sure the two inner bulkheads at the split do not stick together. Fit the bulkheads. Measure and drill the holes in the oblongs for the tubes. Set the oblongs up onto the tubes including the partition, square up and glue. Insert the tube arrangement into the hull and fit in place using hardwood shims to set the frame square and then fix in place using filler and ply doublers. Remove partition once everything is set.
My thought is to balance out any innacuracy in bulkhead marking, that could upset the motion of the tubes when inserting/removing them, by making the interaction between tube holder and hull infinitly adjustable. Similar to having adjustable feet on white goods or a camera tripod.
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That was very interesting ballastanksian. You put a lot of thought into that. Appreciated.
Bear in mind that woodwork is not my best point of sailing. If I can get all the ply sections to fit the hull exactly, and align the one inch holes properly, that will be my aim.
I think I will first try for accuracy in the bulkheads. If necessary I can slightly open up the tube holes if I have to with a drum sander on my Dremel. I like your interface plate idea. I do not want to stick the two hull halves back together !
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Certainly not! That is a great idea (and darned simple!) adjusting the holes. Just make sure those tubes are paralell after all that hard work {:-{
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Sorry guys, but from this point onwards my build thread of HMS Agincourt will have to continue as text only due to the new Ransomware demands of Photobucket.
See my previous posts in which they are now blocking all images from my "free" hosting account unless I immediately pay them an annual subscription of almost one hundred US Dollars. <*<
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Bob why do you need Photobucket, just post photos from your PC that's what I do, just make sure they are low resolution. ok2
Joe.
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Hi Joe. The only photos I have ever been able to post directly on Mayhem is my Avatars.
My illustrations are between 60 and 100kb, max dimension 640 pixels.
Theoretically they should load, but will not.
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Send some to me Bob. I will host them on my Imageshack account until you sort out your issues. I will check how much my account costs as I beleive it to be much less than you have been asked for.
Definitly enquire with Martin how he does it, you may need to find a way to form a photo sizing template to allow your images to upload here. I imagine a Photoshop like program will allow you to do this.
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Bob, try an experiment.
Start with a very low resolution picture of maybe 5k and if that works, then start increasing the size until it refuses to load. I will be watching, so I can clear out any detris. Assuming , of course that you have a reducing program at home.
Hopefully we can resolve this.
Cheers
ken
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Thanks Kenny. I use Paint Shop Pro 7 which has many advanced features, plus I check the sizes in kb in the directory, and make sure the max size is 640. They usually come out to around 80kb, depending on levels of sharpening etc.
For some reason the "attachments" section on Mayhem posts never seems to result in a photo being displayed.
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Bo
yep, just opened my HMS Bristol log and got the same images as you, , yet it says IF you want to upgrade, not you MUST upgrade, just found it in terms and conditions, the old free account does not support 3rd party so just a way to raise money, must find another site
Bob
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For some reason the "attachments" section on Mayhem posts never seems to result in a photo being displayed
We all use this system with no trouble. I also use Paintshop pro. can you try a really small picture this time.
ken
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For some reason the "attachments" section on Mayhem posts never seems to result in a photo being displayed.
Hi Bob, I had that problem once - the solution was thus: Use the browse facility (after clicking on Attachments), select the image, press "enter" on your keyboard.
That should work ok - don't click on "Post" as that will only post your text.
Hope this helps, just try a random image and see if that works...
Regards,
Ray.
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Hi Bob if you check my photos on Brocklesby you'll see they are around 30 to 80 kb and 800 x 600, I have no fancy soft wear to achieve this, I just highlight all the photos I want to post from the picture folder on my PC, then right click on them, a drop menu opens and I choose "send to" " mail recipient", a box opens offering to reduce resolution for e-mail, open the drop box and choose 800 x 600 and click ok then the e-mail opens with the photos added as attachments then I send the e-mail to myself, it comes straight back with the photos resized, I save these to a separate folder named Mayhem pics and they are ready to post on my build log, it all sounds a bit long winded but it works and it costs nothing. :-))
Joe.
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I must agree with Joe here.....'it all sounds a bit long winded but it works and it costs nothing' :-))
It's not even the zero cost, but you are guaranteed to have your images when you want them and will never be held to ransom by any Client Server
My digital images are typically 1.45mb, I re-size to 1025 x 577 pixels in Win7 which equate to ~~ 250>290mb which is just under our 300mb allowance O0
Derek
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Just in case no one has mentioned it but most camera have setting to reduce the size of the picture to reduce the amount of space being taken on the SD card. Look at the setting and see if you can reduce the photo size to 640 x 480, that will be all you need to upload any pictures with out software to reduce them. If the do not load ask Admin to check if your PC setting need to be changed to match their system to upload.
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Right now I am looking at text only to continue with this build. I keep repeating myself but ...
All my images are under 100kb, with a max dimension of 640 pixels.
However, there is a problem in trying to load images in a Post to Mayhem. The attach works, image paths appear in the dialogue box, but when you try to either Preview or Post all you get is red text warning of no content.
Add some text such as "test", it then it goes through but with no picture. Been trying this for several days now.
Seems to work for some people, maybe with different browsers / O/S maybe?
Right now I am playing with IMGBox. Everything uploads neatly, but the only linking facilities appear to be clickable text links or 'send to Facebook' etc. No images being shown. I shall persevere.
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Test post for photos from Windows 10 Pro and using Google chrome
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I have loaded a photo direct from PC to your block, what operating system have you, and what Search engine do you use.
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TEST PICTURE
image loaded as an attachment in Mayhem dialogue box. Correctly sized image shown as linked, and listed as an attachment.
However, does not show in either Preview or Save.
Whenever I use the IMG link from Photobucket the same image appears in both Preview and Save
Why ? Using WIN 10 and IE 11
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test
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Can't understand why your photos don't post Bob, I just clicked browse under the text box that opens my pictures, clicked the photo and then open, it then appears in the attach box, then added test for the text and then post.
Joe
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Nope, still no picture will load. Almost as annoying as Photobucket pulling the plug.
Quite frankly I can't see the point in posting anything else on this subject without illustrations.
============================================================
Bulkheads
The bulkheads are coming along slowly. The two pairs of interfacing ply sections are glued together in pairs.
One of the forward bulkheads finally done, after two days of trim and fit. 9mm ply is quite tough.
The most forward bulkhead is quite a different profile as the hull is narrowing and extra curves.
In the end I built up a template using sections of 10mm balsa, and have transferred the outline to plywood.
This will take another day or so to carefully cut out and trim to shape.
A photo would have been useful to describe this.
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Hi Bob, just found the following text copied from the help page about posting attachments,
Attachments - If enabled, this feature allows users to attach files to their posts in the same way as most e-mail clients. Users simply have to browse to the relevant files on their computer before selecting Post. Multiple attachments, up to the limit set by the administrator, can be added to a single post by selecting the Additional Attachments link. Users can delete their attachments or add more by modifying their posts. The permitted file types and sizes are set by the forum administrator. Some forums may display image attachments in line with the post or show them as thumbnails below the post.
Note it says If enabled, maybe ask Martin what this means, just a thought,
Joe
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A quick random test using Windows 10 without even looking at the file size.
Ok, so let us go through this. I clicked on 'Attachments and other options', clicked on Browse and chose from my pictures files the above image of a Bismuth crystal. I then added the above statement be cause it didn'tlike me posting a mesage without text, and pressed 'Post' (I think it is that and not 'Send'.
The image came up a bit bigger than my usual images, but pleasing all the same.
Are you adding a bit of text to your test posts Bob? I imagine you would get the same warning in red and pink if you tried to post a message without text, but maybe not?
One thought. Where are you accessing your images from? I access mine as mentioned straight from my 'Pictures' file. If you are trying to access them from your photo upload program (I use a Fuji Finepix and could access my images from the Finepix program) then maybe the Forum host does not like your photo storage program. PHP does not like some phone systems as demonstrated by the very small text, so maybe the same applies.
We will get there Bob. We will see your progress on Agincourt even if one of us has to go down to yours and etch-a-sketch images of her :-))
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Bob
At the risk of being insulting, are you sure you are trying to post jpegs (jpg JPG jpeg) and not a propriety format? The program I use to resize pictures saves files in its own format. I have to export the file (a menu option) to get a jpeg. Just a thought.
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Trying something else. "BB Code" from IMGBox
(https://t.imgbox.com/Lf6bUBxW.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/Lf6bUBxW)
Only shows a clickable thumbnail, but nothing appears linkable from the full 640 x 538 43.8k .jpg file
Better than nothing. You can click on it to see the full size JPG
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Never thought of copying it using Etch-a-sketch (tee hee).
Whether or not I add some text, the result is still empty. ie: Devoid of an image.
I copy photo's from my Fuji Finepix HS20 EXR SD card to a specific directory on my C drive for that project.
I go through each of the images individually using Paint Shop Pro 7 to crop, resize, and sharpen each one.
Normally I would then upload to my equivalent gallery in Phtobucket.
Copy/pasting the IMG tag from Photobucket always instantly produced the full image on Mayhem, even under Preview.
Attaching in the Mayhem dialogue box shows the path to my file, but does not actually load the image into my Post. Should there be another button saying "Do you really want to attach that image?"
I normally like to compose my text in Word, embedding the HTML links for the photos in appropriate positions between paragraphs, then copy/paste the lot into Mayhem before previewing it for any edits.
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Definitly a step in the right direction Bob.
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Bob this may be daft but why are you using IE when you have Edge or google chrome which are faster and I thought IE was dead with windows 10. What is the format that your pictures are save in?
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No, just attach-browse-select from your image files write something in the message box pertaining to your image, such as This is Bismuth, and post.
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Bob this may be daft but why are you using IE when you have Edge or google chrome which are faster and I thought IE was dead with windows 10. What is the format that your pictures are save in?
IMO both Edge and Chrome are too basic and limited. IE remains the main browser of choice for Windows.
As stated numerous times, all images are in .JPG format
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Some information that may help:
Your Manual on the camera: page 18:
Press the RAW button to temporarily change the recording format. After shooting a picture, the recording format will be back to the option selected for j RAW in the setup menu (P 96). j options options RAW button pressed RAW button pressed RAW+JPEG JPEG RAW JPEG OFF RAW+JPEG
Why you should not usr Raw = Jepg:
More and more photographers are aware these days that raw files provide higher quality information and more flexibility in processing than JPEGs do. For those of you convinced to shoot raw files, your camera most likely gives you a choice to save just a raw file, or to save both a raw file and a JPEG of each photo you capture. Frankly, I hope to convince most of you who capture raw + JPEG to stop doing it and capture just a raw file. However, for those who choose to capture both, I will explain the file management options available to you.
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Bob Email me the photo you uploaded to the blog and I will see if I can up load it. from my PC in the same format you have on file. If I can do it then your setting are the cause of you not being able to upload. PM with Email Address.
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I think that unless you are an enthusiast, JPEGs are perfectly adequate for most purposes, certainly anything to do with posting photos on Forums.
Colin
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Some more info from the Microsoft community :
https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/ie/forum/ie11-windows_7/ie11-wont-upload-or-download-jpeg-pdf-files/52451c55-661f-41e8-8b71-4e9722eb2e55
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Hi Bob Internet Explorer 11 is what I use and have no issues posting photos, I would contact Martin to see if you are enabled to post attachments, I've never used a hosting site so I don't know if the posting process is the same as from a PC
Joe
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Is this a time /refresh required issue?
On the rare occasions I have changed my Avatar ( 10k JPG) I notice it does not update when I click save changes in my profile. If I wait a few minutes then open a page with one of my posts it does eventually update, but not instantly by any means. Should we wait a few minutes, then refresh for uploaded images in Posts as well?
Using Photobucket links it was all instant, and in Preview. Maybe nothing actually uploads in Mayhem Preview, and takes some time to do so in Save?
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Hi Bob , All I can say is mine post instantly well with in a few seconds anyway, Hope you sort it out we need to see your interesting build. :-))
Joe
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Thank you Joe. I am working on it %%
Another bulkhead transcribed from layered balsa and marked out ready to cut out.
(Try to imagine a picture of it here)
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My test shot worked perfectly using Joe's method. Also had a email from photo bucket telling me they had suspended my 3rd party hosting. Well now I have the alternate they can swivel
Bob
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Just trying something
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-vbpTZgD/0/ea718d4a/M/first-bulkhead-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-vbpTZgD/A)
Yippee !! This is hosted by SmugMug. Created new "gallery", uploaded my Agincourt photos, Share Photo, copied the BBCode and pasted in here. Yes, there is a small monthly charge (about £2.50) but hopefully I have a solution
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Replacing photos deleted by Photobucket
HMS Agincourt as built
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-rrpB7KD/0/4e6ac06f/M/Agincourt%20as%20built-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-rrpB7KD/A)
As in 1918
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-GRq9NG6/0/a1a5d79c/M/Agincourt%20in%201918-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-GRq9NG6/A)
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Replacing photos deleted by Photobucket
At Dean's - Obviously too big for my car
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-HhwGqMG/0/9054b9b1/M/on-roof-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-HhwGqMG/A)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-pc3MqDQ/0/f044a324/M/on-roof-2-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-pc3MqDQ/A)
Cut in half. Two into one does go
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-m4MtBBq/0/629e9d3d/L/two-into-one-L.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-m4MtBBq/A)
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Replacing photos deleted by Photobucket
On lengthened workbench
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-GhKzWKL/0/a9a3831f/S/on-bench-S.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-GhKzWKL/A)
After cutting stainless steel tubes
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-fZtKtXG/0/1695f39e/M/cut-tubes-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-fZtKtXG/A)
Mock-up of joining method
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-jhLcXS3/1/49f9d73f/Th/mock-up-2-Th.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-jhLcXS3/A)
First bulkhead
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-vbpTZgD/0/ea718d4a/M/first-bulkhead-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-vbpTZgD/A)
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Nice one Bob, Glad you found a solution. :-))
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Nice one Bob, Glad you found a solution. :-))
Me too - and a lovely clear shot it is too, nice one. :-)
Regards,
Ray.
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Forward Bulkheads
Now I’ve got the photo hosting problem sorted I can get back to the model making.
Whoa ! Creating eight chunky bulkheads not far off a foot square feels more like cabinet making than model making.
Forward half bulkheads are all in 9 mm ply, with the interfacing section doubled up to 18 mm. The one nearest the bow was trickiest as it involved concave curves. This is the one I made a template for in strips of 10 mm balsa. The profile transferred reasonably well, but took quite a bit of filing to get the fit right.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-L32Cg4C/0/0db3fc5c/M/forward-bulkheads-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-L32Cg4C/A)
No holes yet. I first have to finish the rear set, carefully clamp and dowel them altogether before I chance that operation as getting everything to align properly is super critical. I could end up with a lot of egg on my face, this build is a pretty stupid idea anyway.
The only stage I will know if I have the visionary objective understood is if it first rains for forty days and forty nights.
I might need to add some scale animals . . .
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Someone at Wikcy said it would make a good child's canoe, but possibly it would do as a small animal's ark, you know, pop a couple of Hedgehogs, some fluffy rodent types and some reptiles in, plenty of space %)
Seriously though, I am so pleased that you have got vision back. I was worried I had bought too many hobnobs, as it takes less time to read the captions than digest the pictures, and the barrel only take so many biccies {:-{
If the tops of your bulkheads are all prefectly level, then that should give you the baseline needed to mark out the positions to drill your holes.
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Hi Bob
Thats some very nice wood work to create your bulkheads, thats my next job on my Invincible to create the water-tightness required in model boat hulls. Can't wait for the next instalment. :-))
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If the tops of your bulkheads are all prefectly level, then that should give you the baseline needed to mark out the positions to drill your holes.
Unfortunately Ian the after part of the main deck is an inch lower then the forepart, so I have to use the "keel" surface as datum for the holes. Also, it's not perfectly flat inside. Being quite close to flat across such a large surface is a tribute to Ron Dean's moulding skills. Nothing wrong with a good stock of Hobnobs - I love 'em.
Nick: Your hull adaptation looks much more complicated and challenging than mine. I am sure your bulkheads will be spot on.
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Several posts back I was asking about what happened to the stowage of ships boats after removing the flying bridges.
You were right Geoff, as picture below, they must have unloaded them all before going to sea.
In this photo showing the converted HMS Agincourt at sea there are clearly no ships boats visible anywhere.
Do I make and fit them? With the flying bridges on I can. Otherwise most turrets will have extremely restricted fields of fire.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-vRBXkJz/0/9e4cc07f/M/non-boats-aboard-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-vRBXkJz/A)
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Bulkheads
I now have all eight main bulkheads cut out and dry-fitted. Phew ! Hot work this weather sawing and gradually filing them to match the various inner hull profiles. Next job will be temporarily doweling or screwing them all together preparatory to drilling one inch holes for the stainless tubes - right through the whole stack of eight.
Trepidation time {:-{
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Hi mate found this picture, thought it might help you with were the boats went
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Thank you for the detailed illustration Dodes. Some of my previous photos (deleted by Photobucket) showed the boats arrangements in both 'as built' and later configurations. I had earlier decided to include the flying bridges, tall top masts and torpedo net booms, which incidentally gives much better bearing angles for the gun fire system I aim to incorporate. Your picture shows well how restricting bearings were with so many boats stowed around the guns.
Geoff had found out that in practice the boats were left moored at port, which is where they were all in regular use for ferrying stores and personnel.
On the bulkheads I have just found out that you can get a 26 mm x 100 mm long wood auger, and have ordered one. This is for the one inch stainless tubes. A nominal 0.6mm clearance rather than the tight fit of a one inch or 25mm auger. However, I do expect quite a bit of fettling in assembling this lot. Only 24 holes to line up along 1 metre length :embarrassed:
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Happy building Ken, site I found the pic on had several capital ships on it.
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That is definitly a good idea. Having that clearance will pay dividends as you have space for glue as well as wiggle.
Your choice of having flying bridges is probably the wiser for your plan to have rotating turrets Bob, because then you have a greater angle of traverse on the middle turrets, and do not have to worry about boats, turrets or both being damaged if the latter traverse too far by mistake.
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Hi Ken, talking of wood augers, I was in my local B&Q when I saw some 4 x twist augers about that size being sold off at a discount, think I may go back and get myself a set.
David.
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Aligning Bulkhead for Tube Holes
All eight 9mm bulkheads are now a reasonably close fit to the inner hull profile, with the interfacing pairs glued together as single 18mm units. Next comes aligning the 72mm thick stack of plywood in preparation for drilling three 27mm holes for the reinforcing tubes, right through the stack.
I decided to use 6mm x 30 dowels to maintain the alignment. First clamping the two double thickness ply partitions across the horizontal and vertical planes, then drilling and fitting two positioning dowels.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-ngbRL4x/0/0be2d0d2/M/bulkhead-stack-1-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-ngbRL4x/A)
Then, in succession, carefully aligning the next bulkhead and dowelling that, turning over and doing the same for the opposite end. Finally the fore and aft bulkheads to complete the secured stack. The stack can now be clamped to the workbench for the auger drilling. The dowels can later be removed, and holes filled.
Three days waiting for Parcelforce Express 24 whilst tracking info remained stuck on “out for delivery”.
The 27mm auger finally arrived, looking like a wood burrowing Thunderbirds Mole.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-MSBxZjr/0/d94b65fa/M/bulkhead-stack-2-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-MSBxZjr/A)
Hopefully the alignment will be as accurate as I can make it for dry fitting the stainless steel tubes. I do however expect to do some fettling of the tube holes, which may take some time. Only when everything fits will I secure the bulkheads into the hull.
I hope this new tool will augur well for the fitting operation. {-)
Bob K
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A five star groan Bob :}
I apologise for telling you how to do carpentary given that you have probably been whittling dead tree for decades, can you turn the block over so you can drill in from both sides to keep the faces free of splinters and unsightly tears?
Just a thought to save you extra work to do in filling and tidying up, though obviously if this ability could cause innacuracy to occur then a bit of tidying is a small price to pay in the long term.
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Not at all Ian. I am the first to admit that woodwork is not my best point of sailing.
My aim is to put a scrap piece of ply underneath the stack before clamping it down so the auger does not suddenly burst into free air, ripping up the grain. The plan is to do it from one side only otherwise I might not get the measurements to line up and end up with a staggered hole. I also need to keep checking the drill remains vertical, not having a pillar drill.
I have visions of my Workmate spinning on the end of the drill. %%
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That is the best idea of all Bob. Fingers crossed for the next couple of days.
Go careful and clamp that Workmate down well :-))
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Morning Bob.......we see the 27mm diameter auger bit has a ~~10mm shank hex drive......this is a new design that has appeared over the past 15 years or so
The original parallel round shank was perfect for our great grand fathers with their hand powered ratchet brace drill....
So the new hex drive will transmit all of the power your hand drill can muster....prior to seizing <*< & grabbing >>:-( on breakthrough ....[I wouldn't be concerned with splinters....if the work is secure it could self propel you] :embarrassed:
Can you not beg a neighbour with a pillar drill to use it :-))...
Derek
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...A second thumbs-up to using pillar drill, from me.
Given the sliding fit required for your s/s tubes, these holes have to be parallel. You don't want a wonky hull or immovable tubes if they're at all squint. It would be hard enough for a narrower bit doing it hand-held, but this diameter of bit won't take hostages when it's running.
Andy
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Looking at the auger I would counsel you to use a brace and bit rather than a drill as I think once it bites it could break your wrist with the torque kick. The benefit with a brace and bit is that you can cut quite slowly so you can control it better. If you drill a very small guide hole then the screw part should follow it all true.
I would think that a reasonable clearance in all the holes would be the way to go so you can assemble everything loosely and in line before you fix with araldite or resin. You can also hold everything true with a couple of G clamps and once dry it should all just slide apart.
Watching with interest.
Cheers
Geoff
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I think you are right Geoff. A pillar drill large enough for this job would be mega expensive.
So, I have spent today calling over a dozen professional carpentry firms in the area, usually leaving messages, (without reply). Three that did respond said they don't have a pillar drill in their workshop either.
HSS Tool Hire - no luck there.
The problem with a carpenters brace is that square-ness reverts to being by eye.
The problem with a power drill is not just square-ness but lack of low speed control.
A very large pillar drill would stay square, but very expensive with enough size and speed control.
I would be unlikely to use it again and have nowhere to keep it. Use once & E-Bay?
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Fingers crossed. I may have a lifeline thrown. More on Thursday . . .
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As an off the wall idea, in the old days technical colleges used to open their doors after hours to hobbyists so you had access to large equipment. I don't know if this is still the case but may be worth checking.
Cheers
Geoff
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Hi Bob,
Would it not be feasible to use a 27mm hole cutter from, for example, Sandvik?
You wouldn't have to cut the whole 72mm because you would lift out 1 or 2 thicknesses at a time leaving the 6mm pilot hole in place.
Just an idea.
Tony
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Hi Bob, just a of the wall thought, I was wondering if a multi flute drill may have a cutter for each flute, if so it may cut truer than a single flute.
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Actually the auger has two opposed-side cutting flutes. The slightly leading one cuts the periphery, whilst the opposite side cuts the interior. The central "V" has a spiral thread cutter to keep the cut true.
Quite natty really seeing as a regular HSS drill has two identical cutting faces that meet in the centre.
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As an off the wall idea, in the old days technical colleges used to open their doors after hours to hobbyists so you had access to large equipment. I don't know if this is still the case but may be worth checking.
Cheers
Geoff
Only problems here are -
a) can you find a technical college these days? our local one (medium sized city, did a lot of day release apprentice courses and night classes) closed its construction shops (joinery, carpentry, brickwork, motor engineering) some years ago. The space is now a football field.
b) I did a three year part-time course there in the early 2000's, learning how to use all the lovely big machines etc. got my certificates to prove I could do it. When I wanted to carry on at an evening class in order to take advantage of the machinery I was told "you can use the hand-tools but the workshop assistant must do the heavy machinery jobs, it's health and safety and insurance based", so I didn't bother.
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You know Bob, many years ago, in my distant youth, I watched an old shipwright in Malden Essex, bore a hole with an old auger, through an 2" deep saddle chock through the deck of a barge and through a 8" square beam underneath and the hole went true for the securing bolt. So yes if you are careful in setup and watch how you go should work out okay, mind this old boy had been doing it long before I was born. But get some old scrap bits and have a practice run , shore you will be okay. Wish you all the best and happy building.
David
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Hi Bob, meant 2foot thick block not 2inchs.
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If the drilling and fitting and tidying of these bulkheads goes to plan (and why shouldn't they?) then everything else should be a breeze albeit a large breeze :D Here's to Thursday Bob :-))
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Thanks for all the feedback chaps. This is a critical operation as Ian says, the build depends on me getting it right.
Hopefully the rest will be like building a model boat, but four times bigger than usual.
Thursday? I was chatting to a colleague from our club about an upcoming event and I happened to mention my quandary. It turns out he has a big pillar drill in his workshop and invited me to bring my stuff over after our usual sailing session on Thursday. Serendipity. Fingers crossed.
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Small suggestion - if it ends up that the holes do NOT line up as intended, why not open them up sufficiently to get the tubes through - and then plate either side of the bulkhead with the holes, in metal with holes of the correct diameter for the tubes. The plates can then act as reinforcement for where the tubes pass through the bulkheads, screwed to the bulkheads, and the tubes glassed in to place.
Sorry - not very well explained methinks...........
Carl
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Oh dear !! Today was not a success. I took my stuff round to a colleagues workshop, where he has a very large pillar drill. Setting the stack of bulkheads under the auger was OK, but even with very low rpm and very slight feed the auger's teeth kept biting in, jamming the large motor. It was almost as if the screw thread on the central V was trying to pull the cutting faces into the wood.
Thinking cap on again. No point in trying a flat auger. The whole point of this one was to bore out precision-cut holes that would be exactly vertical. Successively cutting one inch holes with a tubular cutter, removing each layer when cut, would not work either. A hand operated bit and brace could not guarantee all three holes being exactly vertical and aligned. They need to be machined to run true.
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I have had success using a Forstner bit for drilling several types of wood and board. As they have a longish shank, a Forstner should give you the depth required plus a bit.
I have found them to drill a hole a bit bigger than the diameter stated, so a 25mm bit might cut a 25.5 or a 26mm hole. I have one if you would like to try it out; I can post it to you to try?
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I am definitely not a wood-working expert but, in my view, I imagine your modern auger is designed for hi-speed cutting. That would account for it biting in and stopping at low speed.
If you could fix together some scrap bits of ply to the same thickness as your intended work piece, perhaps your colleague would allow you to have a go at a high speed and see if that would work - I'm assuming you didn't try this at the time - also, as a thought, would light machine oil give the auger any assistance ? might be worth a shot anyway.
Regards,
Ray.
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Oh dear !! Today was not a success. I took my stuff round to a colleagues workshop, where he has a very large pillar drill. Setting the stack of bulkheads under the auger was OK, but even with very low rpm and very slight feed the auger's teeth kept biting in, jamming the large motor. It was almost as if the screw thread on the central V was trying to pull the cutting faces into the wood.
Thinking cap on again. No point in trying a flat auger. The whole point of this one was to bore out precision-cut holes that would be exactly vertical. Successively cutting one inch holes with a tubular cutter, removing each layer when cut, would not work either. A hand operated bit and brace could not guarantee all three holes being exactly vertical and aligned. They need to be machined to run true.
Concerning the hand brace alignment problem. Have you thought of constructing some sort of jig that would hold the brace in alignment while drilling? I have in mind something like the thing my dad had for his electric drill. It was much like a vertical pillar drill, you just screwed the normal drill into it. Have you tried enquiries on any of the woodworking forums for a solution? (e.g. Good Woodworking magazine).
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Ongoing R&D
Not much progress since my last missive, but some decisions made. The way that auger snatched dramatically at just a touch of speed there is no way I would try it on much higher rpm. It could prove dangerous.
One key disadvantage when in someone else’s workshop is they naturally want to operate their machinery. But it is my precious bulkheads. I have resolved to buy my own pillar drill stand for my Bosch CSB 500. Amazingly these are not in stock from places like B&Q, Wickes, or even Screwfix. I really needed to see it before committing via a tiny thumbnail image. However, no choice. I finally settled on the Axminster DS2 drill stand. Excellent make. Very solid. Big heavy base, and a drill travel almost deep enough to go through the whole stack in one pass. Although I may never use it again, it is essential that the holes are exactly vertical. Ten professional local carpenters would not even reply to my messages. I have to drill it myself.
Taking a tip from Ian (ballastanksian) I had a look at Forstner drill bits. Worth a try on some scrap pieces. Looks more controllable. I have ordered one. Options are always good - Thanks.
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Another option? Drill numerous smaller holes just within the target diameter with the pillar drill first. Then your industrial auger won't be choking up at slow speeds doing the whole cut itself.
I'd try that on scrap first.
Andy
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Hi Bob just another suggestion how about a Holesaw, you can get a mandrill with an extended shank if necessary, then drill a bit clear the holesaw and drill a bit more, I think that's what I would use, just a thought. ok2
Joe
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Why You try it with a milling machine.
Look if there is a woodworking shop in your town.
Succes,
Tom
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I sympathise with Bob. Anyone can drill a hole but to drill a large accurate hole through several thick laminations is something else again.
Just a bit of lateral thinking but would it be feasible to drill oversize holes in the bulkheads and then make a series of of alloy plates which overlap the holes and which have accurate dimensioned holes drilled through them? (two plates per bulkhead with fixing holes on the outer edges) Then bring the two halves of the hull together with the bulkheads fixed in and line everything up. Pass the rods/tubes through the holes, slipping on the plates as you go and then when everything is in place screw or bolt each plate to its bulkhead. Everything should then marry up nicely and you have the option of using filler between the plates on each bulkhead to fill in the gap. Hope this makes sense. Basically it is an adjust and fix solution.
Colin
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Taking several ideas already suggested further and adding them together:
Drill the holes oversize and fit the bulkheads in the hull. But instead of having several small plates, make up the required number of larger plates from steel or 1/4inch ply with 25mm holes drilled at the points you want to form your tube group.
Then put the plates in the hull by the face of the bulkhead they are to fit to, then insert the tubes into your plates and through the bulkheads and screw the plates in place once the tube group has been checked for being parralel to a chosen datum line both vertically and horizontally.
These lines may be unassociated with the hull but perhaps the top of your bench and say a length of batten clamped to the front edge that the hull is measured againts to assure it is straight. The plates can be clamped to the bulkheads and screwed in place once you are sure of the tube group being square.
Whatever the path you choose Bob, you are doing the right thing by not rushing it with potentialy disastrous results to the project, or worse still you {:-{
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I might be out of turn here but, a large board with all the bulkheads correctly lined up and clamped in place, using a pillar drill, drill 4 holes through the lot at strategic positions, the diameter of which is just big enough to take a dowel piece.
fit 4 dowels in the board and then individually drill the 3 tube holes through each piece, the dowels acting as holding points that are the same for every piece, on watertight bulkheads the dowel holes are plugged with dowel.
this idea stops the holes being too deep for a large drill, the pieces are individually drilled exactly the same whichever piece is attached to the board - essentially a jig.
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The problem with drilling the hole as a one off is that you have to be sure of getting it 100% right first time. The alternative solutions with bigger holes and use of centering plates give you a degree of wriggle room and the opportunity to make adjustments to get everything lined up exactly. And it will all be concealed in the finished model.
Colin
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I think Warspite gets the biscuit, best advice yet I believe.
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I really appreciate everyone's support and encouragement. I am just being very cautious, knowing I have every opportunity to irrevocably mess up an operation on which the whole build depends. I am no cabinet maker.
The pillar drill stand arrives Monday, the different drill bit Tuesday.
I will probably spend time thinking about things, and then practicing on scrap timber and ply, so don't expect instant news. I am confident that my 8 bulkhead pieces are individually an accurate fit, and hopefully dowelled together in reasonable alignment. All I need is the three tube bearing holes to run true through the whole stack.
There needs to be clearance, but too much clearance impedes the accuracy when I come to epoxy it all in.
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:-)) .... "I think Warspite gets the biscuit, best advice yet I believe"
Yes dodes, must agree......get that man a cup of tea too O0..........
There may also be a few frames about midships that have an identical profile ....so the dowels would also ensure total accuracy of profile when edge surfaced together
Derek
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The basic premise is that we all know that a small bore bit in a pillar drill will go through relatively straight successive diameters to the dowel size will be easier, through the whole 8 bulkheads will be relatively straight forward, then as each piece is plugged onto the dowels the larger hole is drilled, being a single bulkhead means less chance for the bit to snatch in a deep hole of various parts, once the first hole is cut through the 8 bulkheads, the set up is aligned with the next hole and the process then repeated for that hole.
I have a drill bit here that is designed similar to a wood bit, difference is that its diameter is adjustable, but unsure to what diameter, have never used it either as it cuts like a radar sweep, so a bit reluctant to use it, if I can find it I will photo it.
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Sorry guys, but there is no way I am going to cut bulkheads one at a time, or start with a small drill and open it up with successive sizes. The alignment of the three centre lines needs to be super accurate.
In the mean time I am trying to work out a set of clamps to hold the stack down securely. Some large threaded rod, big washers, nuts, a thick plate as the clamp and a measured thickness of timber on the outside.
The drill base is large enough to not worry about bowing distortion of overhangs.
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super critical aligned holes does not translate as a viciously snatching big drill bit, with the bit wandering and creating egg shaped holes is some cases, but I might be wrong and personally err on caution.
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How do I say this nicely ? I know you are trying to help.
Watching someone else trying, and failing, to drill my stack of carefully shaped bulkheads that have taken two weeks to make was a bit fraught. One thing I learned was that I needed to drill them myself, first gaining practice on scrap timber. My Axmintster DS2 pillar drill stand is due to arrive today. By Tuesday I will have a choice of two different choices of auger bit types.
The most important aspect is that the dowelled stack needs to be drilled through accurately as a single assembly as the alignment is super critical. Using a pillar drill, once the first bulkhead cuts the subsequent ones will follow exactly. The cutter is not going to oscillate or bend.
Cutting them one at a time does not help the motor stalling problem, and will only introduce more positional variables, as would using successively larger drills.
Patience is required.
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I understand - I was not be critical - just that I know you are being very careful, and believe that a couple of dowel holes can be drilled vertically more accurately than the large diameter bit, as a jig and the lesser thickness to drill through would be more accurate than the stack due to deflection of the bit, unless of course the progress through the stack is so slow that you end up burning the walls of the hole due to friction. Hope you get there and progress further on.
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For what its worth, my belief is the original auger was always intended to go in a Brace and Bit as the screw thread is designed to pull the auger down. If this is done in a pillar drill at any kind of speed it will put enormous strain on the auger and probably make the belt drive slip, which is what happened.
Machine augers tend to just have a triangular point to them as the downwards pressure is applied with the pillar drill handle. Candidly I have never liked using them as they always seem to be a bit brutal. Always have a sacrificial sheet both below and above the work piece if using a power auger as it stops splintering on initial cutting and breakthrough.
I have used circular saws to good effect (Barrel shaped) which work quite well if taken slowly and constantly backed off to clear the teeth.
Good luck
Geoff
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Geoff: I think you are right about the long auger, plus the fact someone else was drilling it. The Forstner bit had no problem, although it did get hot quickly at depth.
Warspite: I know you are trying to help, which is appreciated. The whole stack is well dowelled throughout. The new Forstner bit makes all the difference as it is so much more controllable. I am leaning as I go here.
Three Holes !
Lots of thought and careful planning. I finally have three holes bored nicely through eight layers of thick plywood. The Axminster DS2 drill stand proved a solid bit of kit, with a nice long drill travel. The Forstner bit also arrived today. The nearest size to 26mm was 1 & 1/16th inch, just under 27mm. So, a little bit of clearance for the one inch stainless tubes, hopefully not too much. Cut cleanly without any “snatch”, although as I went deeper I had to keep retracting it to clear the chippings. No worries with the workpiece clamped down it finally went through into the scrap board underneath. Edges of holes nice and clean, one advantage of boring it through as a set.
PHOTO:
Surprisingly, when I separated the stack and removed the temporary dowels, the tube sets seemed to go through more accurately than I’d dared imagine.
PHOTO:
Well, obviously I can't insert photos in any logical sequence in my text, using Mayhem attachments
SmugMug Problem
Major problem with SmugMug: It has cut me offer after trying to fill in my subscription with them, and each time refusing to recognise valid payment details. My Bank has now stopped my card, which is a major nuisance.
SmugMug have cut off access "as my 14 days trial has expired."
<*< <*< <*<
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That all looks very satisfactory Bob, your patience has paid off. :-))
Joe
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Pleased to see you have had success at last Bob. Looking good.
Colin
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Great! That set up looks just right. Onwards and upwards :-)) :-))
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A question for you experts out there. I intend to "tack" each bulkhead in position using an epoxy filler or putty. Should I use Plastic Padding or some other form of filler? Does it need to be waterproof as I will be using fibreglass resin and matting for the final bonding. This is just to hold it all in place, and make "cups" under the tubes/holes to fill with Z-Poxy 2 part resin.
I did see something mentioned elsewhere recently, but can't find it.
The interfacing pair between the hulls will need special care as alignment with the f/glass hull halves is important, and for the mechanical latch clamping later.
I will be doing a thorough clean of the fibreglass hull with warm slightly soapy water, then a light going over with a scouring pad to key the surface.
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Plastic Padding and similar fillers are polyester based. Best to stick with epoxy I think.
Colin
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Well, obviously I can't insert photos in any logical sequence in my text, using Mayhem attachments
Hello Bob - It's great to see your patience beginning to pay off - now, with regard to the photos'
Have a look at "Seasprays" Scotia build log - you will see he does a sequential reference to his updates.
i.e. Pic 1 The three holes have been successfully drilled
Pic 2 Dry run of the stainless steel tubes
etc, etc...
...and the photographs are added at the end.
Not ideal for the way you like to run your build logs but better than nowt. :-)
Regards,
Ray.
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Hi Bob
Glad you got everything sorted and drilled as planned :-))
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Many years ago I needed to fit some solid ply bulkheads into a fibre glass hull and was told that if you just use fibreglass paste (with all the fibres in it) then there can be a tendency as it dries to pull the hull towards the bulkhead which can create a slight ripple on the outside. I gave a very thorough scoring to the inside of the hull. You really need to start exposing the strands to get a very good adhesion. Clean thoroughly. I fitted using epoxy glue and when dry ran a small fillet of car body filler round the edges and then overfilled with fibreglass paste - kind of finger curvature which spread about 1/2" up the bulkhead and about 1" to the hull. This gave an enormously strong connection with no rippling of the hull.
Cheers
Geoff
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Geoff: That sounds great (and neat) for the final bonding of the ply bulkheads in the GRP hull sections.
However, what I need right now is something to "tack" them in place, like dobs of adhesive Plasticine.
I need to position the bulkheads quite accurately, especially the double thickness interfacing ones, bits of Duct tape would not be sufficient. With everything aligned in place I can then use the paste you suggested.
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How about blu tack?
Colin
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I just used araldite. If you use the slow setting one you have plenty of time to position the bulkheads and fix them in position.
Cheers
Geoff
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Little blobs of Hot glue is the best I've found, holds instantly and strongly, If you haven't got a hot glue gun they are cheap and very handy for all kinds of temporary holding.
Joe
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All the talk of creating dams >>:-( ........
Just select 1/8" section nitrile O-rings to suit the diameters required larger than the tubes....tack weld the O-rings to the hull sections with Super-Glu, then flood the cavity with the epoxy of choice :-))
Naturally this process needs completion with the assembly structure such that the O-rings are laid in the horizontal plane, however provides a clean, robustly structurally sound and very tidy method of assembly of components with epoxy
Derek
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Derek: That idea is pure genius :-)) So simple, and effective. I would never have thought of O Rings.
20 on order
As for the dobs of Plasticine, I might try some standard red Milliput. It is just to initially "tack" the ply in position, later reinforcing with Araldite, then finishing with Epoxy paste as suggested
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(Andy, looking closely at the work so far) If that ever snaps in two and sinks, I will personally dive it and rescue it. Wearing a tutu.
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It is probably over-engineered by a large factor, but as a first off I needed to be sure that each end could be supported in the air by the other half, fully loaded. Retrospectively, with the heavy gauge of the tubes, I could probably have got away with half inch and three eighths tubing. That is still a combined wall thickness of one eighth of an inch. %%
The main thing is - it will now fit in my tiny car
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The O ring idea is inspired genius :-)) :-)) :-)) The Milliput should be quite strong as it does seem to stick quite well enough and should for the time it is holding your tubes in place.
It holds to smooth steel plate well though with enough force or a lever, it will pop off.
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Derek's O ring idea simplifies things a lot. Thank you Derek.
A slight pause whilst I cut out two casement "shelves" in the bow. Just noticed, in time. (see photo of Ron K's prototype)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-2Sjd6sP/0/3b7d7b53/M/casement-shelf.-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-2Sjd6sP/A)
At the moment the bulkheads tend to shift slightly with the slightest movement, the tube holes are so good an alignment, with approx. 1/16" clearance.
I need to slide the O rings onto the tubes first. A few small areas of Milliput will hold each bulkhead in position before Araditing to secure. When fully set I can stand the hull halves on end to Epoxy the tubes in, thanks to the O rings.
Lastly finishing off with fillets of Isopon P40 filler paste. The now redundant dowel holes can be filled with P40.
I now feel much more confident of this build reaching fruition. Thanks for all the helpful input.
I need to start thinking ahead to source four suitable Bueller motors, buy the Raboesch prop shafts, four 40mm brass props, and work out how I am going to pump 10kg of ballast water, both in and out. I am aiming for a "dry" lift weight of no more than 19kg.
"Onwards and upwards", as Ian said earlier.
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Power requirement versus flow rate I reckon. There have been discussions on here before now possibly on your Poly build when you were developing your internal systems, so maybe there are a few suggestions then not applicable that will now suit your much much larger hull!
You don't want to spend ages pumping ballast in and out, but you also do not want to flatten your main battery before you get to sail. Perhaps having the pump battery ashore and have leads running to the pump via a two way switch? You could thread the leads around a tether to keep her by the pond edge while you pump and not have leads and cable all over the place being a trip hazard etc {:-{ Hide the lead connector under a piece of deck furniture or in the superstructure.
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Without going too far off thread.....the o-ring's can be used for the ellipicital intersection of propeller shaft tubes & the hull
Just gently squeeze an adequately oversized the o-ring to an ellipse...a few [4] welds of super glue then level the hull until the o-ring is in the horizontal plane & fill with liquid epoxy.....ten repeat on the other shaft intersections
Rudder posts is another prime candidate for a tidy and structurally sound mounting..........
If you swirl the O-rings in talcum powder prior to installation, they can be snipped away after the epoxy has dried
Derek
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If you are planning on water ballast, I think I would just use a hand pump because the capacity can be what you want and no power consumption issues.
Cheers
Geoff
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To reiterate, there are some practical limitations involved. Due to dodgy back and legs I am unable to kneel lakeside (I could never get up again). The system must take this into account.
Secondly, the overall "dry" lifting weight should not exceed 19kg. That is approx. double my HMS Polyphemus. I could manage that - Just. The overall ballasted weight is 29kg, of which 10kg to be pumped water.
I recall from my draughting work for MOD equipment that anything over 22kg has to have a red warning plate stating the weight. ie Electronic modules, equipment carry cases etc. One man lift limit.
So, internal self contained pumping system. I do not envisage current drain being that much for a short period.
If I run out of Rx channels a second Tx or key fob device. The volume between two bulkheads, up to the water line is approx. 4.5L ie 4.5Kg. One fore and one aft. Float switches as cut-offs. Lots of baffle plates to reduce swirling.
Bulkheads sealed, plus ballast tank top plate, also sealed in.
Can I do it with one bidirectional pump (reversible)? or will two pumps be needed?
Just some initial thoughts.
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Some more progress to report. Both hull halves have been thoroughly cleaned and lightly abraded in preparation for mounting the bulkheads and tubes.
Before epoxying them in I decided to add some pairs of 27mm holes for wiring, and fettled the forwardmost bulkhead for the inset casement shelves.
I next needed to consider mounting the heavy duty adjustable toggle latch. This has to operate in a straight line, an inch above the waterline, so some re-think was required in how it operated. The fixed “catch” has to pass through two double bulkheads so I opted for a 3/8 inch square brass bar. An angled notch at the latch end, and a ¼ inch brass rod drilled through as a load bearer at the fixed end. The later will be reinforced with epoxy.
I am thinking of using a large O ring embedded in the join face to limit water ingress, plus building a deep box around the latch as safety backup.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-wkMxw22/0/59161bbb/S/latch-diagram-S.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-wkMxw22/A)
The square holes will be corner drilled and chiselled out. Seating groove for the O ring calls for a ball end bit on my Rotacraft. After finishing this will be fixed with adhesive.
Materials for the above all on order. All cutting and drilling must be done before final fixing-in of bulkheads.
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I like the water catchment idea. I plan to do similar on the Novgorod when I get to it to surround the motors and electrical gubbins in their waterproof box.
I recall you having buzzers to indicate critical waterlevel in Poly, so you could do the same to insure Agincourt's safety.
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Hi Bob,
Good to see you are making good progress with your build which makes fascinating reading....
Regarding your water pump direction control and water ballast level requirements:
This could be very simply and cheaply achieved with a standalone (separate to gun turrets) Arduino and relay board. ( total cost less than £10)
This would give you the following functionality
- Water level sensor - could switch off pump/sound an alarm or both when preset water ballast level reached - sensor would simply be 2 wire probes - one stuck to the hull at your required water level
- Switch pumps on/off and control flow direction using a small relay board to accomplish power reversal to pump motor with an inbuilt safety relay to ensure shorting would not occur
The switching could be done from one channel on your radio and could be made "intelligent" ie. - if water can be sensed in hull then pump out - if water can't be sensed then pump water in
Regards
C-3PO
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Hi C-3PO. Ingenious (and Arduino based of course, knowing you). At this rate I could end up with enough Arduino's on board to have to take their weight into account - Tee hee {-)
Obviously one system per hull half, no interconnecting wiring between hulls.
I am still looking for a bidirectional / reversing 12V pump, capable of a reasonable flow rate.
A bidirectional pump would be the simplest solution.
The wire sensors sound similar to the principle used in Hunter Systems ballast pump controller.
I reckon that if I have a sealed-in tank between two bulkheads I can just about get the 5kg per hull half required.
ie 2 x 5 litres.
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Bob the Arduino needed to control this would only weigh 6g
I think finding a reversible pump might be a challenge - I wonder if you could use 2 of these in each hull half.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12V-DC-5W-Micro-Mini-Ultra-quiet-Brushless-Water-Pump-Oil-Car-Submersible-0-75-/142391493307?epid=574889495&hash=item212731c2bb:g:5JcAAOSwGJlZI76u
It might work to have just a single inlet/outlet through the hull - if the pipe connected to the hull was connected to pump 1, the outlet of pump 1 connect to the outlet of pump 2 ( the opposite way round)
As only one pump would be working at any one time the water would hopefully just flow through the other inactive pump - not sure I have explained this well - maybe a simply diagram might help
Regards
C-3PO
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Thanks for the info on those pumps C-3PO, four are on order.
Apart from that everything is on hold. Now I've got the brass bar, drills and other bits, then my Bosch drill decides to pack up <*< It cut out a couple of times, then refused to run. Looking up on YouTube I suspect the brushes may be past their Sell By Date. Ordered some on EBay, but turns out they're coming from Luxembourg so could be up to three weeks.
So, no drilling. It may be that will not fix it. If so it will be hard to replace the drill like-for-like. Obviously it must be cordless, with the standard collar for my new pillar drill stand, and a proper chuck with key. Rare beasts nowadays.
Most look like sub machine guns with a huge weight under the stock. Useless !
So the workbench has a partially dismantled Bosch drill and the shipwrights have been laid off.
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I cannot see how building the Agincourt could have upset the Model boat building spirits enough to cause you drill angst? I am trying to think of what you could do to assuage them Bob {:-{
It is typical that you have just got the stand that fits that drill. GRRR >:-o
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Mini Shipwrights re-hired
Quicker than I expected, the replacement brushes for my 25-year-old Bosch drill arrived. A bit of a fiddle but thanks to a YouTube demo I have them fitted and the drill now runs like new. The mini shipwrights are re-hired and work can resume.
With my pillar drill working again I drilled the square brass bar for the 4 inch tie-bar, then drilled and shaped the latch end.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-mxT5gH3/0/ab6db297/M/latch-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-mxT5gH3/A)
Next was dowel-securing the two double bulkheads together, drilling and chiselling out a long square hole through both for the brass latch. Hurrah for the pillar drill stand to keep the chain-drilled holes square through almost 40 mm of plywood. The fixed end of the latch will be epoxied in that bulkhead.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-DFVvJwb/0/933b4ecb/M/toggle-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-DFVvJwb/A)
Plumbing
Looking ahead, the four mini pumps recommended by C-3PO were tested and were easily able to lift water to at least 500 mm at a good rate. I intend fitting in-line filters to prevent the ingress of pond weed and debris. I am working on diagrams for siting and plumbing. In each half, one to pump in and one to pump out. I will probably opt for float switches. The pumps will operate from one Rx channel via a cam with two microswitches, similar to my HMS Polyphemus. Keeps it simple. Inlet and outlet pipes, ¼ inch bore, through the hull just below “dry launched” waterline, inside the ballast chambers.
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You're cruising now Bob :-)) There are lots of ideas to store away for future use.
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Bulkhead fixing
After completing the latch mounting, plus other woodworking mods before it all gets fixed in position, the next stage was to secure the bulkheads in the hull. The interfacing bulkheads were epoxied in first, flush with the cut edges.
Then I needed to fix the ends of the 25mm tubes into the two double bulkheads, as they need to be just under-proud of the interfacing join. Insert some Araldite into the holes, slide into position, then slide up the O ring on the hull face. That should ensure the outer tubes stay put.
Each of the inner bulkheads were marked out on inside of the the hull, a coat of Araldite applied between the marked lines, then slid into place. Squareness etc checked, and clamps applied. Only 5 mins working time for each operation
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-Q2FQNd8/0/806b6fb4/M/bulkheads-fitted-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-Q2FQNd8/A)
Note that the O rings for the other bulkhead tubes are positioned ready for hole sealing for which the half-hull assemblies will each be placed on end. The hull joints will be filleted with Isopon P40, dowel holes filled, and all sealed internally with fibreglass resin.
All coming all along well I think.
Ballasting
The outermost pairs of bulkheads will be used for water ballasting, to the same depth as the exterior waterline.
That works out to 9.9 Kg of water, almost spot on what I need.
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P40 Disaster
A snag. Trying to use Isopon P40 was a total disaster. A large proportion of the five minutes “use” time is consumed by thorough mixing. After that it refuses to be picked as a workable ball, making a total mess of everything in the vicinity, and forcing you to use fingers to apply it to inside corners. Worst of all it is impossible to create any kind of fillet as would be easy with P38 filler which I have used before.
Up to this point I have used Alaldite and Z-Poxy without problem, keeping everything neat and tidy. I have now even got P40 over the previously pristine stainless tubes.
Ah well, that’s one consigned to experience, and the bin. I will revert to either P38 or Plastic Padding, reinforcing later with resin and f/g cloth.
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After having found that P40 is totally useless for forming strong supporting fillet radii on inside corner / edges I tried P38 instead. Tried it on a test piece. Far too runny to create any kind of decent internal radii. It used to be "thicker" than that.
What I guess I need is something more like an epoxy "soft putty", something I can press well into the corner edges then smooth to form approx. 10mm radii, and not in 40 gm packs (I would need dozens).
Ideas ?
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Bob
I have used a epoxy that is thick enough that it wil not drop down.
https://www.polyservice.nl/Poly-Pox-Lijm-700-200-gr-pasteuze-epoxyhars-p-16188.html
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Bob,
You might find that Ronseal High Performance Wood Filler would do the trick.
http://www.ronseal.co.uk/home/fillers/high-performance-wood-filler/ (http://www.ronseal.co.uk/home/fillers/high-performance-wood-filler/)
It comes in white or natural (light beige). I find it better to work with than P38 (not so runny if you stir it up a bit first) and it sands down very easily but you would need to try it. It will stick to wood and GRP OK.
Colin
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In the past I have just used slow set epoxy glue to fix the bulkheads then a small fillet of plastic padding (wood filler may not grip) smeared in with the finger. Once set I have used a larger fillet of fibreglass repair paste to really fix the bulkhead. It is important to rough up the hull surface very thoroughly to the point some of the fibres are showing.
Good luck
Geoff
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Well, the way it is done on full size boats is to mix some epoxy and thicken it with one of the several fillers available. Filleting joints is a common way of joining panels and putting bulkheads into boats these days and is plenty strong. Car body filler isn't really designed to be used on a structural load bearing joint, although on most of our models it is entirely adequate. However, when we get to a model the size and weight of Agincourt perhaps a look at full size practice might help.
There are plenty of Youtube clips showing how to do filleting, some more detailed than others. Search "epoxy filleting". As for thickening the epoxy (Z-poxy should work fine here), there is a big range of fillers to give different characteristics to the epoxy, but all you really need is West's filleting mixture (http://www.gaelforcemarine.co.uk/en/West-System-Filleting-Blend-405/m-3973.aspx) - that tub should keep you going for a while! A little practice never goes amiss (as I have proved on many occasions :embarrassed: ) but neat fillets are actually quite easy and make the inside of the boat look nice and clean. Everyone talks about "peanut butter" consistency for the mixture and I have found you need a fair bit of the filler to get to that stage, but once you are there the mixture is easily worked.
Good luck and have fun.
Greg
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Surprised that the P38 was too runny, it's what I always use, mixing just enough to do a section of a bulkhead at a time, applied with the shank end of a drill to form the radii, and trimming of the waste as it sets, applying with drills give you a selection of sizes, and when you try removing a bit of waste that has set you realise just how well it bonds. ok2
Joe
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Hi Bob,
P40 does work well for fillets, for me at least there is a knack to it. Mix it in smaller quantities, using slightly less catalyst.
Buy some disposable nitrile gloves and pick some of the mix, up on a suitable gloved finger and simply run your mix around the area to be bonded. Before the mixed P40 starts to set dip a clean gloved finger into a dish of water and smooth off the surface.
See attached pics as proof of success, for me.
Regards
Ian
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Thanks guys. Some good food for thought there.
Sailergreg: You are right about the size of Agincourt, it feels more like working on a real boat.
Ian: There is no way I could get P40 to do that, it's just a messy smear - over everything.
What really gets in the way is the forest of one inch stainless tubing going through the whole lot. If they were not there I could probably make up some kind of filleting tool, but this is going to have to be a finger application job, doing a little bit at a time. Hence something more like the "feel" of Milliput as a putty.
PS: The Z-Poxy was ideal consistency for sealing the tube holes, and the O rings were perfect for the job.
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What about an epoxy putty like Milliput?
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A couple of boxes would do the trick.
Was your filler in a tube or tub Bob? If the former, you may have got runnier consistency coming out first with thicker consistency later. I have found this happen before and helps you not one iota.
Onwards and upwards :-))
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Ian: I would probably need at least six boxes with the size of these bulkheads. Yes, the runny P38 was in a 120 ml tubes. I had used a big tin before. Maybe that was the difference.
Experimenting
I had thought of using ‘standard’ Milliput, which is epoxy, but one pack will probably only be enough to do both sides of one bulkhead so I would need another five packs. I could do a small section at a time, working around this forest of stainless tubing is challenging. A few sculpting tools need to be made for the radii.
A pity about the P38 which turned out to be far more runny than I’d remembered. I need something a lot stiffer to sculpt with.
I will try a section with Milliput. It can’t be worse than the P40. If that works I will have to buy in a large stock from Amazon. It will be worth if it does a secure neat job.
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Milliput seems an expensive way to go. There are various marine or plumbers epoxy putties which come in a two part stick that you knead before use and which can be smoothed out with a wet finger and which would be rather more economical to buy. They are very effective, I used them when I had a 1:1 scale boat. They are advertised as setting underwater!
Colin
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If you do use Miliput I would still paint resin over the join as it does shrink slightly when dry (it's a very tiny shrinkage).
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Experimenting
First, the result of using P40. Like trying to sculpt with blancmange. Messy and ineffective.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-rkWjpLP/0/31ad05bd/S/P40%20-S.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-rkWjpLP/A)
Experimenting
Next I tried ‘standard’ Milliput, which is epoxy, but one pack was only just enough to do both sides of one bulkhead with radii so I will need another five packs. I did a small section at a time, working around this forest of stainless tubing is really tough. No sculpting tools needed. I lightly wetted the surfaces, applied a small ‘sausage’, then formed it in place with a wet finger. It seems just the job, so have ordered a five pack from Amazon. £10.70 for five with free UK delivery. That is about AUS$17.85 Colin.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-DHMtpMV/0/82e2cd26/S/milliput-S.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-DHMtpMV/A)
That’s more like what I wanted. Six packs cost far less than either the big P40 or 3 x P38 tubes that both proved useless.
Steve: Yes, the intention is to apply fibreglass resin afterwards, with lightweight laminating fabric, but I need a good fillet first. I can mix and apply with a small brush. Together with the initial Araldite bond, then Milliput, the resin and cloth should make a really strong support.
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A bit more expensive way would be to use Hysol (Loctite 9462) as used by the jet flyers to add fillets to wood formers in glass fuselages. It is a thixotropic epoxy which means it stays where it is put and doesn't run. You do need the applicator gun which uses a mixing tube to give the correct proportions and mixes the two parts ready for use.
http://www.motorsandrotors.co/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=79&zenid=cq5u9enqnf7qoaor8k2l89e2m2 (http://www.motorsandrotors.co/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=79&zenid=cq5u9enqnf7qoaor8k2l89e2m2)
Jim
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I did not know that Milliput shrank! I have been using it for years without noticing it shrink at all so maybe I have been super lucky. I will keep an eye out for that issue as I use it to detail lorry tilts and canvass areas on model kit masters.
Anyhow, just a quick check Bob. Have you slid your hull halves in and out to check the tubes are paralel? Call me a windy whatsit but I would hate for you to have got puttying in a big way and then need to hack and chop material out again.
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I did not know that Milliput shrank! I have been using it for years without noticing it shrink at all so maybe I have been super lucky. I will keep an eye out for that issue as I use it to detail lorry tilts and canvass areas on model kit masters.
Anyhow, just a quick check Bob. Have you slid your hull halves in and out to check the tubes are paralel? Call me a windy whatsit but I would hate for you to have got puttying in a big way and then need to hack and chop material out again.
I have not noticed shrinkage, but I did dampen the surfaces first. Helps to mould into surface texture, especially bonding to wood.
Oh yes Ian, I kept making sure everything keeps sliding well at every step. That was the key importance of cutting the tube holes as a single stack of plywood. She slides apart like a drawer on ball bearing runners. I was especially careful Aralditing the latch & bar, so nothing trickled down the long square hole.
I see I have to wait a week for the "free delivery" 5 pack Milliput, so will have to think of other build aspects to keep me amused till then. I think I will make a start on the 5 mm deck panels. I have allowed for the position of the barbettes in my bulkhead positions, but must also think of maximising access to the ships innards.
I enjoy the planning aspects of these projects, trying to think several stages ahead.
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PPPPPP as they say! I do lie making lists of what needs doing and then going through and working out the details such as allowing for saw blade widths in over all dimentions of timber needed etc.
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%)..& Bob K says ... "I enjoy the planning" ...yes ..I think it is a work related discipline [ prior to retirement] ..... a part of my to do list every day was to remind others that they should also plan their days events O0
Derek
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End Caps
Whilst waiting for the 5 pack of Milliput to arrive I found some ideal end caps for the stainless tubes. Hard PVC. Slight grinding out to enlarge 25 mm bore to fit one inch, but otherwise excellent fit. These are required not just to tidy the ends, but also to seal against water ingress and prevent the inner tubes sliding too far. Z-Poxy to secure when Milliput and resin reinforcing done. Interior will eventually be hand brushed with grey acrylic primer. Outside sprayed of course.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-fVtb5WC/0/5444b4c0/S/end-plugs-S.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-fVtb5WC/A)
Deck Marking out
Forward half hull upended on a sheet of 5 mm plywood to mark the outline. Using large sheets of tracing paper I then traced the relevant details from the scaled plans. Ie: Superstructure outline, barbettes, inset casement decks, plus anchor hawse / chains and other key items.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-wCHsPHZ/0/083219ab/L/deck-marking-L.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-wCHsPHZ/A)
Marking through the tracing paper to transfer the detail required, then outlining in fine tip felt pen.
This will also give opportunity to consider internal access for essentials.
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I am very excited for you Bob. The end caps are a sound idea saving you loads of time pugging filler into them or making plugs or even turing your own caps. Adjusting them yourself just means you know they will fit how you want them.
I am pleased to see you are already planning and marking your decks out. Crikey, by Christmas you will be completing the running gear!
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Thank you again Nick B and Geoff for your advice on deck panels and access in the Invincible thread.
I have the 5 mm deck panels marked out and was figuring how best to provide maximum internal access whilst minimising visibility of joins. Giant ships means tools used before to cut decks are not large enough. I don't really want to buy any more "use once and archive" power tools.
I am still waiting for the 5 pack of Milliput from Amazon. However, whilst idly searching Google I found an absolutely ideal item for the fixed outer barbettes. 87 mm galvanised steel tube used for rain down pipes, only 0.5 mm wall thickness. Exact diameter I needed. So I have ordered 1 m, ample to do seven barbettes, and easier to form the rotating inner sleeves into.
PS: Ian. The running gear is planned for just after I get these decks cut out.
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Good show :-))
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Milliput ?
Still waiting for 5 pack of Milliput standard. Two weeks already!.
Deck Panels
With thanks for advice given, I have decided on how to arrange the access panels in the 5 mm ply decks. Rough diagram below.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-t4q9rJF/0/d59d5b8b/S/cut-lines-S.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-t4q9rJF/A)
Forward hull: Following the curve of the curved fo’c’s’l’e breakwater, two cuts parallel to the port and starboard edges of the forward superstructure, then a cut across the beam just behind the 3rd turret. The lift off hatch will include the numbers 1 to 3 turrets and forward superstructure,
Rear hull: Decks on two levels. On the upper level deck follow the edges of aft superstructure and number 4 turret. On the lower level deck, a rectangular hatch from just forward of the number 5 turret to just ahead of the rudder axis.
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Hi Bob, I think if you had bought a tin of P38 you would have been alright the tubes of P38 are notoriously loose because of separation especially in warm conditions, it also happens with a tin but can easily be remixed to a stiff paste that stays where it is put, just a thought Bob. ok2
Joe
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You may be right Joe, but I'm just annoyed the Milliput is taking nearly two weeks to arrive.
The 3 x P38 in tubes was as runny as resin.
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Progress
The five pack of Milliput finally arrived yesterday, so I was able to complete the 10 mm radius strengthening fillets on the remainder of the bulkheads. Next I layed on the epoxy resin with microfibre cloth to bond it all together, and coating the ply with resin for waterproofing. Sticky job !
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-tV6wSnv/0/8fb82635/L/filleted-L.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-tV6wSnv/A)
There will be other supports later. Bulkheads are square, just angle of photo.
What is a Jigsaw?
When I was likkle a jigsaw was like a fretsaw but with a circular section blade - you really could cut out wooden jigsaw puzzle pieces with it using a keyhole notch workplate. The chunky things now bearing that title with a 10 mm deep blade would be totally useless for such work. So, why call them a “jigsaw”? :police:
Decks & Hatches Planning
However, as these four foot long deck panels are far too big for my vibrosaw my wife has kindly bought me a present. A Proxxon mini “jigsaw” to aid me cutting out these 5 mm ply deck sections. Only 180 mm long, 12V, it has a small enough blade you should at least be able follow reasonable curves. As usual with any new tool I will need to practice a lot on offcuts first.
Hatches
Diagram of hatches in deck
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-t4q9rJF/0/d59d5b8b/S/cut-lines-S.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-t4q9rJF/A)
Not sure how people usually do these, but with required access taking up much of both decks, if I use separate pieces of wood I would need almost double the quantity of plywood - and waste most of it. I decided to cut them out of the decks, using a thin “dremeled” slot to insert the blade. At least it will be exactly the same shape, minus two blade’s width. After lightly sanding the edges I can epoxy thin strips of styrene to them to restore a close fit.
Strips of 5 mm ply to be glued underneath with Neodymium magnets to secure.
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Well you've certainly got a move on! :-))
Can't wait to see her together in "one-piece" when you've finished her. I thought I had sorted my deck out last week but I discovered that the quarter deck was too wide so I've cut my deck down by 1.5inches!
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The blade thickness has caught me a few times in the past. I did wonder if thin lengths of wood would be better than styrene, but styrene may well be more beneficial if you need to laminate more to minimise the gap between the deck inserts and the deck edge.
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Can't wait to see how you are cutting your decks and hatches Nick O0
I will pinch some hints and tips.
Right now I have just completed the main bulkheads. I have my decks marked out.
Just waiting for the Proxxon tool to arrive from Germany.
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Bob...these PROXXON STS12/E jigsaw with the replaceable concentric foot plate are very manoeuvrable and will accurately produce the curved requirement from the curved master template
The real issue is creating the curved template in the first place >>:-(
Do not dismiss it, do you remember those Stadeler ''flexible curves'' we used in Tech Drawing in the 60's ?...... one of those 12" [300mm] long curves with 20 x 1mm diameter holes for 1mm diameter push pins to hold a temporary the contour shape? ......whilst gently cutting with the machine?
Derek
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Thanks for your recommendation for the Proxxon mini "jigsaw" Derek.
I am looking forward to it being delivered. Decks this size call for a cabinet maker rather than a model builder.
I used to have a Flexicurve in my draughting days, but no longer have those instruments.
Hopefully laying the hull upsidedown on the ply and drawing round it will suffice in this case. I had taken numerous check measurements as well.
Just ordered 40 Neodymium magnets, 7 mm dia and same thickness as the ply.
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I did that for the decks on my Monitor and destroyer and they both came out well. Just don't push too hard with the pencil distorting the hull between bulkheads and you should be alright.
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The Proxxon Micromat "Jigsaw" has arrived. It looks extremely compact, and able to cut curves in 5 mm thick ply. The blades looks very thin. Ideal for cutting out hatch panels. The power supply unit is not immediately obvious as being an "optional extra", so I had to order that too.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-vpQGxxQ/0/836b4887/M/Proxxon-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-vpQGxxQ/A)
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That's a bit cheeky, but the machine looks like it will serve you well and long, so the extra cost will be worth it.
Cool looking tool Bob.
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What voltage does it require Bob ?
ken
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The Proxxon STE 12 jigsaw requires a special Proxxon transformer/regulator that you have to buy separately. Mains input, but 12V to 18V to the jigsaw.
Deck Cutting
Decks all marked out, started the cutting. First rule of model building: Never assume anything. It appears that the stern half of the hull is not exactly symmetrical. After cutting the outer profile, with a bit of extra clearance, it became apparent that the curves did not exactly match. I had marked it out with the hull inverted on top. Turning the deck over it now matches the lines I had drawn round it. No damage done. But all my markings are underneath.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-vz8WHXM/0/b4ac055a/M/aft-decking-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-vz8WHXM/A)
Using some square rattan I epoxied some supports around the stern, exactly a deck thickness below the hull line. This gives a guide when doing the actual ply fitting. Surform first, then file, lastly emery glued to a board. On the stern I cut out the upper level deck to be mounted separately. This is contiguous with the fore main deck.
Not too bad a fit, although it took some time to get the edges done.
I have nearly done the fore half deck, a bit more fiddly due to the casement insets. After this I will endeavour to cut out the hatches.
Somehow she looks even larger with the deck panels on. I can hardly move in here with the Workmate in front of my bench !
I am now close to the expensive part of the build, before the decks are fixed in place. The propulsion system. Four rather large motors (I am looking at Bueller) four 290 mm Raboesch prop shafts and four 40 mm brass props.
I have ordered the stepper motors with their control boards, for the turret rotation system.
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I am very excited for you Bob. That looks excellent. Regards deck markings, I did this with the monitor a few months back so I know your annoyance, but it is eaier and less costly to re mark everything than throw good timber away every time, and you will recall some of the dimentions, so it should take less time.
I am looking forward to your next post :-))
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Parts ordering
Deck & hatch cutting was temporarily held up waiting for more Proxxon blades, but these have now arrived. Also arrived yesterday are eight sets of stepper motors with their control boards.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-PRZMjLb/0/44fcffa2/M/stepper-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-PRZMjLb/A)
Casement Insets
These proved to be rather fiddly, especially as I don’t want to epoxy the decks in until I have largely finished the internals. The deck insets are to allow two forward secondary armament guns to fire forwards. Making reasonably good progress though.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-MWhn2qb/0/fd98e124/M/casement-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-MWhn2qb/A)
I will need to build in a section of inner deck to mount the secondary armament. Again this has to be installed before the decks are epoxied. I will also have to cut out the gun shields from the hull before these decks get fitted.
Propulsion system
The next big expense was four Bühler 1.13.044.264 motors at 22 EU each, due to arrive 29 August. Colin-d in Germany had recommended them. 51 dia x 89 long, weighing 740 gm. 3070 rpm, 1.9 A, high torque. They should shove it along quite well I think. I will get the shafts and props at Dean’s at their Open Days 8 to 10 Sept.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-nV49Z3f/0/3e392583/Th/buhler-Th.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-nV49Z3f/A)
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OK, at this point I feel it necessary to log some frustrations and near failures.
I am capable of building accurate detailed ships, and am the first to admit that woodwork is not my best point of sailing.
However, I am having major problems with this Proxxon mini jig saw on 5mm ply. It simply is nowhere near accurate enough for working on model decking. I am moving it very slowly, not pushing or applying any pressure, allowing the blade to do the work. I have chain-drilled slots for the start of each cut.
The blade action consistently pulls to the left, and you have to angle the key notch about 5 degrees to the right to keep it on track. Even then the blade is cutting a somewhat wobbly line 2 to 5 mm to the left of the marked line being followed. It is essential to work anti-clockwise to avoid scrapping the work, and even then a huge amount of manual rework is required afterwards. I really can't be expected to fit new blades every foot or so, as the blades become slightly bent to the left quite quickly. Again, absolutely no force being used.
I have now cut all the hatch panels out, working anti-clockwise to keep the cut inside the marked lines, but am not pleased with the really naff result. <*<
I never had this problem with my vibrosaw, fretsaw or other hand tools. These four foot by one foot deck panels are far too big for conventional model making tools.
There are seven 87mm cutouts for the barbettes to do. I feel I will have to chain drill and file those as I can't see this power tool doing such a "tight" curve.
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So Bob says...... "I am having major problems with this Proxxon mini jig saw on 5mm ply"
By all accounts Bob, these Proxxon machines are capable of producing excellent cutting work.......why not call their help line & discuss your issues......
[PS..... I did mention some weeks back .....'the real issue is creating the curved template in the first place']
Derek
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Buhler Motors
The four big Buhler motors have arrived from Germany. This lifts my spirits quite a bit. They are HUGE compared to the little motor used in my armed trawler (with a Pound coin on top). Only 1.9A each, 3700 rpm and massive torque.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-zGXGWQG/0/8ec47f51/M/buhler-motors-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-zGXGWQG/A)
Hatches
Derek: I did get the marking out very accurate, especially the curves which I also check-measured every 75mm along the axis. The outer profile I could fettle back to fit, but the mostly rectangular hatch openings I really needed to go a lot better as the fitted hatches were intended to be a good fit with only a max of a blade’s width gap.
Now it will need a lot of rework straightening the cut edges and gluing in strips of wood.
At least I have managed to get the step between the two deck levels reasonable. See below.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-8ZZmQQB/0/8186ba49/M/aft-hatch-hole-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-8ZZmQQB/A)
I am naturally reluctant to attempt to use this power tool on the 87mm barbette openings. Too tight a curve, after it’s difficulties following simple straight lines. I would have expected a "jigsaw" to do this, it's not exactly marquetry.
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If, as presumed, the saw is of the best quality in make and material, then are all the blades that you have used from the same packet? If so I wonder if you were sold a batch that had their teeth set badly? If not then that is worrying as one would hope that the blades would be as well made as the saw they fit in.
It sounds like you would have got a better line by chain drilling closely and hand sawing the minimal ply between the holes {:-{
Those motors are indeed behemoths Bob! I love the fact they have the polarity marked on the casing so you can get them wired up confident that all the soldering and fitting doesn't need re-doing because you weren't sure and wired them all wrong.
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Just a thought on your blade alignment problems. I haven't got this particular saw, and can't see the area in your photo, but my full size jig saw has a small guide behind the blade, which stops in wandering left or right.
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Bob....have you trialled the replaceable concentric foot plate that I had earlier mentioned?......
A model builder acquaintance has attained excellent results on complex curves which require no after sawing sanding using this concentric foot ....[the diameter or radius of transition is only limited by the diameter of the concentric foot]
He is however using templates again as mentioned a few weeks back.....
This chap also has the Proxxon 240 volt planer/thicknesser.....this produces absolute quality planking with true thickness accuracy and timber surface finish
Derek
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Hi Bob
When I was cutting the decks out from 4mm ply for my Invincible I had some small wobbles but the biggest thing I had different to yourself is a 'Steve"! I held the deck down on a metal work bench and Steve cut down the pre-marked line. We were using my Dad's work jigsaw which is a Makita design and I've noticed that the Proxxon jigsaw is ergomentally designed differently which may lead to your wobble.
See below for the Makita jigsaw and you'll see the difference.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?client=safari&channel=ipad_bm&source=hp&q=makita+jigsaw&oq=Makita+jig&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.0l4.2121.5662.0.7995.10.10.0.0.0.0.126.708.9j1.10.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.10.706...0i131k1.0nZPAAv0aUQ (https://www.google.co.uk/search?client=safari&channel=ipad_bm&source=hp&q=makita+jigsaw&oq=Makita+jig&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.0l4.2121.5662.0.7995.10.10.0.0.0.0.126.708.9j1.10.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.10.706...0i131k1.0nZPAAv0aUQ)
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I greatly appreciate the depth of collective experience and knowledge of our Mayhem community, without which my mere six years of boat building could not have even reached where I am now. However, I do suffer the impulse to reach well beyond my current level of experience at times. Like my present ‘daft’ project for instance. I do not have a big enough workshop, or the wide range of equipment needed for 2 meter plus boats.
Nick: You and Steve make a great team. Two is always better than one problem solving. I did one cut at a time with the panel clamped down on the Workmate. What would have been useful is instead of a rocker switch a simple pushbutton - at least for stopping the cut as the blade can be hard to see.
Derek: The power tool does indeed come with that alternative to the flat plate “shoe”. They did say that was for working on concave or convex surfaces, rather than the flat ply I am using. The reciprocating head, or maybe the set of the teeth, has a marked predilection for pulling strongly to the left, and I am using genuine Proxxon blades.
I will have a play with that on some scrap offcuts, always worth a try.
Thank you for your patience.
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Hi Bob,
As one of the worst workers with wood on the planet (me) I would not have approached this with a jigsaw. I would have used the only tool I seem to have mastered 'ish when it comes to working with wood which would be a router. I would have clamped a straight edge to run the router along and stopped short of the corners where I would have used another cutting tool ( fret saw or similar) to finish the corners.
I would almost attempt to cut your 87mm openings free hand with a router!!!
Just my tuppence to chuck into the melting pot
Regards
C-3PO
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O.M.G. Just watched a video demo of a router. For model work it looks like a pneumatic drill for glass engraving.
The ship is big, but a full size one.
I should also mention I do have one of those full size Black & Decker "Jigsaws". Used it once on floorboards, useless, put in back in the box where it has since stayed.
I do not think I would use power tools for this kind of task again. Accuracy is made harder by the recess filling up with a mountain of sawdust faster than you can blow it away, making the actual position of the cut hard to see, having to visually rely on the notch in the plate.
I should have use a fine tennon saw to rough out, then a hand fret saw. Would have taken longer, but a better job.
A pity my vibrosaw cannot handle this size of the work. That is very controllable.
I will chain drill the 87mm cutouts.
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Bob
There are routers and ROUTERS
Would this not help you cut your 87mm holes?? or am I missing something?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JHPNOrMgr3E
C-3PO
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Nice kit, but £80 just for the special adaptor plate. I don't really have room to wield something like this, and nowhere to store it after a single usage of seven holes. But thank you for the kind suggestion.
I am much better with electronics and a soldering iron.
I am now coming to realise that with the hatch cuts looking naff and very visible I should clad the horizontal areas with half mil styrene, using the ply as a supporting structure. I know I can get that very accurate as an overlay, and no saw blade gaps.
It's a solution I should have considered before. All a learning process.
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Why styrene and not 0.5mm birch ply. Lovely material to use and cuts very accurately. Will also glue better to the sub deck.
Colin
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I will chain drill the 87mm cutouts.
you get nice 86mm Diameter hole saws or hinge cutter would that not be of use?
and a small sand of the edges?
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+1 for the birch plywood idea. It's lovely material to use.
Andy
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Also, sticking large sheets of styrene could result in problems due to thermal expansion, the plastic will want to move much more than the underlying wood. Using ply will avoid this and it will bond better to the existing wood.
Colin
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Hi Bob,
Forget the expensive adaptor plate - make your own jig/adapter plate out of a sacrificial piece of ply and simply screw / bolt the router to it.
Likewise - cutting straight lines - fix the thin ply to another sacrificial scrap and you will get great results.
I think because I am so bad at using most wood working tools I have found that the router can achieve many things and is something I have come familiar with using and abusing.
You get some amazing "bundle" deals with cutter attachments/adapter plates etc on new routers - clearly the Makita's are Rolls Royce's but even own brand like Wickes etc can be big bang for the buck
As I am sure you are aware you get some very small foot print routers right up to pieces of kit that even with soft start want to take yours arms out of their sockets
Great build - which ever way you jump we are all watching with interest.
Regards
C-3PO
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I really appreciate you all taking the time to offer advice. As I am very unlikely to build anything this huge again I am reluctant to keep splashing out big money on more equipment I may never use again. I am disappointed in the Proxxon which cost a fair bit including the special power supply unit. Ships half the size have always been constructible without needing such equipment before.
So, looking at damage limitation: The outer profiles had the "wobbly extra" on the outside edges, so I could trim them back to fit. All the hatches have cut inside my lines as I went anti-clockwise. Two may be usable with a bit of fettling. The third, and by far the worst, has it's really duff 5mm-out wobbly lines mostly under the aft superstructure. I can hide that with care. The forward parts of it are not too bad, and I think I can fiddle that.
The Proxxon mini jigsaw looked ideal, not much larger than a Dremel. I was not expecting it to pull to the left as it cut. We live and learn.
I have now got the casement insets constructed, using 1mm styrene, which is some positive progress.
Seven barbette holes to cut . . . . .
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I did the deck on the destroyer in styrene over ply because it created an effect I wanted to try and I reckon it worked. But for a vessel with wooden decks over an immense area, and I assume you are going to use individual planks, I would go for a thin ply layer to tidy up the irregularities which will be a good basis to plank onto?
Laying large areas of styrene onto wood requires adhesives that will not damage the styrene such as epoxy or cyano. and it will require time to position the styrene in place correctly, something cyano will not give you, and I was not fully pleased with how the epoxy worked on my deck, especialy as a customer rang while I was laying the epoxy and he was gracious enough to hang on while I spread it on and did not have time to tape the edges down as well as I liked (Hooray for strategic aplications of cyano around the edges!)
Alternatively, plank directly onto the deck, first defining the shape and edges of the openings and epoxy well to give the strips on the edges strength.
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I would certainly agree that thin styrene over wood works, having successfully laid it before, but with the size of this is it is more like applying Formica sheet to a kitchen worktop - a would become problematical at this size.
I am trying to see what I can do with what I've got. The worst areas are under superstructure or can be fettled out with wood strip. I need reasonably straight lines to plank against.
Barbette holes.
I did manage cut these big holes, keeping the direction anti-clockwise and aiming well inside the scribed circles. A lot of filing afterwards, but all the cuts remained inside the markings.
Toggle Latch
An 18 mm ply support will run between the two bulkheads, with 9 mm stiffeners at right angles underneath. This base needs to be strong. I am planning 25 mm high styrene side faces to limit water ingress, although the latch bar enters well above the waterline. Can't make this coffer dam too high as it is right under a turret.
Even so the big toggle latch, fully opened flat, is 20 mm longer than the space between bulkheads.
Lifting the three turret hatch will be necessary, both for accessing the latch, and the turret innards.
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Toggle Latch Box,
I managed to simplify this since my earlier idea. 18 mm platform & 9 mm supports. This is to mount the big toggle latch that engages with the notched bar in the after end. The supports acts as bracing, giving an “H” section fixed between bulkheads and the bottom of the hull. M5 blind nuts on order as once epoxied in the underside will not be accessible. The side supports also act as a coffer dam in case of water ingress. although 30 mm above W/L.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-Hs7d2z4/0/486a2eee/M/toggle-box-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-Hs7d2z4/A)
Deck Fitting
The seven barbette holes did not come out too bad in the end, keeping the jigsaw well inside the marked circle, then finishing off with half round files. The casement insets came out reasonable, although some very fiddly expoxying awkward faces and angles. Lots of tape and clamps.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-P7Gj3m9/0/8b9dbe38/M/foredeck-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-P7Gj3m9/A)
I will not trim off the rear edge of the deck until after it’s final fitting. I want the inter-hull join as seamless as possible. The fibreglass hulls fit together nicely with the interconnecting stainless tubes slid into place.
A lot to do before the decks get stuck down, besides fitting the motors, shafts, secondary armament, and batteries etc. Underdeck support flanges and magnetic hatch fasteners. No rush, but progress is being made.
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Lovely job! :-))
Andy
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You are flying along now Bob, I mean really flying! With the toggle latch almost in place, the tubes all aligned as intended and the big holes in the deck cut and finished, she is starting to look like a Dreadnought.
Are you still planning to have flexible barrels for your secondary armament?
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You are flying along now Bob, I mean really flying!
Are you still planning to have flexible barrels for your secondary armament?
Thank you. Yes. I plan to learn how to do rubber moulding along this path. Twenty 6 inch guns, mostly arranged for maximum vulnerability in a model - sticking out over the sides. I am less likely to get them broken off as rubber castings, and easier to replace. Most dreadnaughts and pre-dreadnaughts have hull-overhanging armament so I am surprised "bendy" versions are not available.
Rear Hull
Meanwhile, work continues on the after end of the ship, Remaining four barbette holes in place. The upper deck is here being fettled to fit. Note the darker hardwood strakes set into the upper deck hatch. This is where the cutter did its worst drunken meandering. Basically I cut out the worst of the wobble edges and glued in hardwood fillets. All hatches now have mounting flanges underneath, some of which will be fitted with pairs of Neodymium magnets.
7 dia x 5 thick. Pairs will be one each embedded in the hatch and in the mounting lug underneath.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-jMjHfd7/0/a690c925/M/aft-end-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-jMjHfd7/A)
Picture also shows the 1/2 inch square brass latching bar for the toggle clamp in the forward end.
It is really handy when working on very large models to have only one half on the workbench at a time. O0
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Bob......I understand the ... 'the 1/2" [12.5 mm] square brass latching bar for the toggle clamp' as shown for securing the two halves together......does this require any over centre moment <*< [with an extension arm] to secure it...[just like load chains on trucks] ....or is thumb & forefinger OK?
From this we understand the toggle is always in tension when secured......but obviously the weakest part of the device is the surface area of the undercut yoke of the toggle which appears to be about 3.5mm high x the 12.5 width [= ~~44 square mm?]
So what is the rated restraining or holding force of the toggle?
Derek
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Interesting question Derek. I am trying to find the invoice for it, but I recollect it was rated at 190kg. In fact the one I am fitting is rather overkill, but I like to make sure. It is basically an over centre lever, in that when the lever is latched down the clearance between the two "hooks" is zero. My brass bar replaces the pressed steel catch plate it comes with, and I think is stronger.
Types of latches: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUY9kJTVBOw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUY9kJTVBOw)
The hull halves slide together on telescopic tubes. The latch holds the mating surfaces together.
It is the telescopic tubes that are supporting the load, the latch stops the hull halves floating apart.
In fact you could still lift the boat with the latch undone. The 3 sliding tubes are nearly a meter long.
Such latch mechanisms are used in applications from suitcases to truck rear doors.
The amount of tension / clearance is adjustable. ie: Just enough so it is tight.
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Full Length
Had a bit of a scare this morning, putting the two halves back together after the deck-working. The tubes were a bit tight, unusually, and then it all jammed together. {:-{
Yipes ! Carefully prised the hulls apart I then checked the fit of each tube, which had slid together so well before.
The fit of the tubes is so close that even a little dust from the filing was enough to cause a jam. Bottle brush on a wire. a bit of light oil and they slide nicely again. I am going to have to watch that for that in future.
Anyway, here is how she looks in full length glory with the decks placed on. I am tempted to take Agincourt to the Black Park Regatta on Sunday, just for fun, with my little Royal Marine armed trawler on top for a same scale comparison. You could almost land an F35B on that, except for the big holes.
After commissioning Black Park Lake will become her home port.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-5n36V8v/0/a4457612/M/full-length-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-5n36V8v/A)
The blind M5 nut inserts have just arrived, so I can mount the toggle latch.
A tad over seven feet. Yes, I am nuts.
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I think every hobbyist is a little bit mad, or we wouldn't do these things that slightly frighten us as well as excite us.
She's looking good Bob. Regarding the tubes, there would be little point in having such a system if it was sloppy. so don't fret, youv'e got it covered :-))
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Lots going on, so I will just itemise various parallel developments.
First Outing
Agincourt had her first outing on Sunday. Black Park MBC Regatta. My first chance to check the logistics of transport and lakeside assembly. My Silver Cross push chair will need a special double-decker platform to carry it properly. Two bases 500 mm apart, the top platform on four shower rail pillars that can be assembled in the car park. However no double trips back and forth to the car park were required.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-G9RVpjb/0/776e0db6/M/Agincourt%20at%20Black%20Park-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-G9RVpjb/A)
Next Outing
This weekend the ship will travel to Dean’s Marine for their Open Days. I hope to get the prop shafts and propellers so I can start installing the drive system, with the four big Buhler motors sitting in my workshop.
Pump System
In the mean time I have started on the pumping system to load and vent 10 Kg of water ballast. This is to reduce "dry" lift weight at the waters edge. I have the four pumps, rated at 4 litres per minute, one to pump in. one out, in each hull half. I have ordered four small water level switches to turn each pump off when it reaches limit. Two inlet filters (pond weed!) using car fuel filters. Inlets to be just under the “dry” waterline, outlets to replicate bilge pump outlets. The system will be operated from a single Rx channel with a servo, cam, and two microswitches. In & out.
Gun Control
I am deeply indebted to both Geoff (Iron Duke gun smoke) and C-3PO (Arduino fame) for their time and kind assistance in my trying to incorporate both their systems together. It will be challenging to try to incorporate both automatic turret bearing and gun smoke together, especially the requirements of fitting both systems into the same barbettes.
It is always good to have multiple aspects to work on in parallel, to avoid design hold ups.
Fitting the numerous batteries required will be interesting as the internal stainless tubes make things interesting.
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Is this her projected waterline Bob?...................
With the water ballast discharges 'to replicate bilge pump outlets' so naturally these are xx mm above the ballasted waterline
Will you be placing the pump suctions in a ballast tank well?......this is a small in say [say 20mm cubic] well below the ballast tank proper and logistically placed possibly aft in each tank to enable a slight [physical] trim to aft when she is in the water to ensure all of the water ballast in the tank is emptied and only the small volume of the 20mm well remains below the pump suction
Will you further have manual emergency drain valve/s to each tank?.......[these fish aquarium brass plug format from e-bay are extremelyin expensive ......approx. 3mm bore.....come in all different configurations.....I have them in my boiler water make up system]
Derek
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Derek: You are on the ball as always. Yes, there are going to be technical issues with this ballast system that I am trying to resolve. That is the waterline correctly marked in your picture (very nicely drawn). First issue is I am not using self priming pumps (rare as hens teeth) so about a cm of water may be left inside. No big weight issue. The need to be able to slide the hull halves together precludes having pump wells below the otherwise flat keel.
I plan to have a hand pump handy in case of failure to pump out. I am trying to avoid kneeling down on the bank. I need to be careful in positioning the water inlets so they are not vulnerable to “coming alongside” damage. Perhaps just where the hull section starts to curve under. The “tanks” are between pairs of full height bulkheads. Pipes are 8 mm bore. Outlets will be up-and-over, ending in several 3 mm through-hull vents above the full displacement waterline.
First stage is to acquire the parts then do some tests in the bath. Half hulls will easily fit in the bath, one at a time.
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Props & Shafts
An interesting stage this, mounting the shafts props and motors. With a single shaft it is relatively straightforward, even with twin shafts. However I am finding that four presents a whole new complexity to getting it right.
Start with the inner pair whilst treating it as a two shaft system. Ended up with 65 mm long slots, prop clearances and motor positions checked, leaving a little clearance for positional adjustments. Next the outer slots, taking into account the amount the outer props are forward of the inners. Hull at a slightly steeper angle going through.
Measuring the angle where the shaft outer goes through, and knowing the diameter, you can calculate the length of the slot required. Best to start with a reasonable fit.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-DjgQHmp/0/02766b13/M/hull-slots-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-DjgQHmp/A)
A temporary “A” frame using prop radius plus a bit, then you can look at where the motors lie. I use a close fitting tube for initial shaft to motor alignment. Heavy duty couplers from Dean’s have a large rubber “X” block between the drive spigots. No noise.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-zJGzpFW/0/85aefce2/M/coupling-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-zJGzpFW/A)
Next will be figuring out the best method of accurately mounting the four motors. Axial alignment is most important, then keeping possible angles close to zero in three planes.
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I am sure that you know of this technique, but I'll throw it out there anyhow. Once your stuffing boxes are glassed into place and you have determined your motor mounting location, using telescoping brass or any other rigid tubing ( you can use your prop shaft as well) make an adapter to go from your shaft size to your motor's shaft size. With your "prop shaft" in place along with your adapter, shim your motor to the point of least resistance,ie, being able to spin your prop shaft and motor most easily. When your have found the "sweet" spot, fixed your motor into place, checking that the "sweet" spot remains. remove your alignment shaft, insert your prop shaft with your universal and you should be good to go.
I hope this makes sense.
Jonathan
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Hullo Bob......the slots in the hull are only cosmetic and of lower consequence than any other aspect of the shaft installations
Do the plans offer a profile line set at the relative position of each propeller in both inner & outer pairs?
Do they provide the same information relative to the lay and angle of the shaft centres inboard closer to the position of the motors?
If so, do they provide sufficient dimensional detail to produce temporary wooden jigs?...
There is a tug build thread on MBM....I will find it ......it provides a brilliantly accurate simple method of such alignment.....
Here you go....http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,57583.msg600068.html#msg600068
Look back at this build ...it will help......Derek
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Do the plans offer a profile line set at the relative position of each propeller in both inner & outer pairs?
No. Three huge detailed sheets with nothing on props and shafts. I am having to rely on a couple of old photos and a few small line drawings from Google (which are inconsistent.)
The shafts need to as near horizontal as practical, consistent with motor mounting and keeping the props within the keel / hull profile. I did read that thread recommended (Korts) but it does not help that much. Thank you anyway. Neat job!
Next I will be making up some dummy "A" frames to locate the outer shaft ends, then turning it all over to work out motors positioning and mounting. Plus I will have to shorten both inner & outer shafts, by different amounts.
I am sure just about everyone has done this, as I have several times, I just wish there was a more logical modus operandi than fit as you go. The cutouts need to be fairly accurate to stand any chance of getting the rest right.
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I must admit that I'm at the same stage with my Invincible project. The inner shafts were relatively easy to set up but the outer shafts have yet to be fitted due to vagueness of the drawings and the fact that I'm using a drive belt from the inner shafts. I've used as a basis the measurements from the Dreadnought and then staggered the shafts to match the side profile of Invincible. Whilst I'm away in Sardinia Steve is ordering the drive belts and cogs from SHG so hopefully when I return in 12 days time I'll get to fit the outer shafts.
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Nick: I saw your inner shafts installed at Dean's. You did say then you were belt-driving the outers. I am following your build with great interest. Best wishes for Sardinia.
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Motors & Shafts
This really is becoming a precision Chinese puzzle, being more dictated by getting the huge motors in, with the outboard pair behind the inboards, plus allowing for the diameter of the large couplings alongside adjacent motors. With a ‘normal’ mount of one or two shafts you have a reasonably flat inner hull area for mounting. These are varying ways up the hull curve.
Some compromises necessary. Shafts are angled slightly more downwards than ideal. The amount of shaft inner protruding under the hull is less than scale due to the angles. At least I can get them almost parallel to each other.
Leading edges of the two inch diameter motors touch the hull profile. Traditional fixing brackets are out of the question, so I am moulding bases using air drying Fimo clay, packing it underneath. Air drying because I can’t put it in the oven, but it is enough to form the shape under the slightly inclined motors. Clay bases will be epoxied in, epoxied over, and fixing straps added.
At this stage I am using 4 mm ID tubes for shaft alignment, cut to length to suit the couplings and fittings. The complete drive system extends 60 cm into the hull.
Motor mount bases using air drying clay
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-vmd3qWC/0/fe788cc1/M/shafts-inside-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-vmd3qWC/A)
and managed to get the shafts parallel
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-KKrbj6M/0/1ca0b7a8/M/shafts-outside-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-KKrbj6M/A)
Shafts will be cut to length when mountings done, and "A" frames added.
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Bob...after you have your individual motor axis and shaft alignments established, don't forget those humble Nitrile O-Rings
1/8" section O-Rings squeezed into an ellipse......a few Superglue tacks to hold the shape %) & you have a very tidy complete Coffer Dam to flood the epoxy ......
Naturally one shaft at a time with the mean axis @ 6:00 o'clock :-))
Derek
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Good idea Derek. Thank you
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I agree, that's a good idea Derek. It was something that was always needed for a tidy job. Any before and after pictures ? to show it doing the job.
ken
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While I reckon the 'O' ring idea is elegant and naturally very simple to set up, I would go down the route some others have and that is to build styrene coffer dams so you can enclose a greater area of the hole and tube in resin especially for a monster build %%
I think the 'O' ring idea is brilliant for smaller models where the forces on the joint are less noticable in collisions/torque situations. If folks use the rings for larger models then I sit corrected and impressed :-))
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Why are you using such large and powerful motors? Each one of those will, probably, swing a two inch prop with ease. Surly a physically smaller, higher revving motor would achieve the same purpose, this then would in all probability, allow you to lower the motor and so reduce the shaft angle.
LB
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Why the Bueller motors? I need high torque at low RPM, plus they are only 1.9A under load. It is not speed I am after but enough grunt to shift 29 kg.
Motors & Shafts
It seemed a good idea at the time., A novel solution to a difficult problem. However . . .
After three days drying I carefully lifted the motors from their air drying clay bases - and the bases crumbled like a packet of digestives that had been used in a warehouse football match. I am sure we’ve all had biscuits like these.
My build threads include failures as well. %%
So, I was hoping to avoid the more complex route, intricately shaped mounting shoes in two inch OD aluminium tube. It is worth repeating that with the complex hull curves, and four big diameter motors, traditional fixing brackets were out of the question. The front edge of the motors touch the inside of the hull.
Half circumference shoes cut from two inch alloy tube, notched for the lugs and ground to shape at the edge that touches hull. Shaped wooden blocks made to support other ends. Epoxied in position, then padded out with Milliput, leaving a central gap underneath for a Ty-rap to secure.
As you can see below it is all a tight fit, even with the XXL hull size, and occupies the last two feet of the rear of the ship.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-6r2QvmB/0/b8ffca14/M/motor-mountings-a-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-6r2QvmB/A)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-K9F9k3f/0/c5d8a493/M/motor-mountings-b-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-K9F9k3f/A)
I still need to finish moulding around the shaft ends through the hull, fit the “A” frames, shorten the shaft inners to suit, then fit the four 40 mm propellers.
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I bet you are glad you bought all that milliput now! I am surprised the air drying clay was so friable as it should have had some ability to hold together, or how on earth are you meant to make anything useful with it? Anyhow, you dealt with more than your fair share of challenges and came up with the goods Bob. The Ties should be enough. Are they removable should you need to do anything to the motors?
Are the knobs on the motors for turning the armatures to a live spot? My dad had an old dumper truck with electric start, but it had a dead spot, so I drilled a hole in the ed of the shaft and a corresponding one in the casing and threaded a bolt into it so that he could turn the armature to a live spot for starting the engine. Its funny how often it stopped at the dead spot!
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Yep Ian. Just about out of Milliput now so ordered another multi-pack. No idea what the hex knobs on the rear of the motors are for. They are seven pole so should not have dead spots. If motor access is needed I can cut the Ty-Rap and fit another. Took a trip to B&Q to get these 295 mm long ones. I had loads of 205 mm but were 5 mm short ! Most with ships this big use car blower motors, which are much wider.
Trimming the "A" frames to exact lengths should be interesting. I may have to make a rudder shaft from scratch as the standard ones are too short, needing to keep the top above waterline. All part of the fun.
I dare not start counting costs here. I intend using the following set of Action Electronics gear for the motors.
Wiring diagram: http://www.action-electronics.co.uk/pdfs/Large%20Battleship%20-%20Eric%20Sims.pdf (http://www.action-electronics.co.uk/pdfs/Large%20Battleship%20-%20Eric%20Sims.pdf).
That is two P93 ESC's for the inner shafts, plus a P94 twin 20A ESC's with mixer for the outers. I am an Action convert, and hate tank steering. With the outer shafts 160 mm apart it should give reasonable turning leverage in Mode 3, although Ron did describe the original ship as having the "turning circle of a continent". Hey: My other ships are less than 160 wide with twin shafts only 60 mm apart, they turn on a sixpence.!
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Bob,
For fixing motors at odd angles I have tried using "No More Nails" or "Sticks like ****, yes that is the name".
If you want to make the motors easily removable set in 4 hooks so you can use cable ties to secure motors and cover motors with cling film.
But so far I have used some very large motors set directly in it and it holds well.
Just "jack" up the motor then either cover hull or pump in adhesive.
Bob
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Thank you Bob, I may buy some and experiment with it, never having used it before. Obviously cling film is a good idea so the stuff does not stick to the motor. This is all completely new ground to me.
Bob
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All coming along, slowly. After fitting the motors and shafts inside, next I turned the after hull-half over to finish off the shaft externals and fit the "A" frames. I always find "A" frames a bit of a fiddle with all the critical angles and curves to take into account. Again, four shafts adds a new complexity after being used to single and double prop ships.
Next up, the rudder. I had to get the largest size of brass-bladed rudder in order to have the servo-arm end of the tube above the waterline. As usual, trimmed the brass sheet down then built up with two laminates of 1.5 mm styrene each side, expoxied together. When set, shaping the edges to what I wanted.
Note: Although the "scale" size of props should have been 30 mm I used 40 mm to give it more oomph. I also increased the size of the rudder as previously I have found that usually helps achieve a better turning circle.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-G9f28Xt/0/8266d7b0/M/under-rudder-h-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-G9f28Xt/A)
I may have to wait before ordering the long list of Action Electronics gear from Component Shop, it comes to a fair amount in total. Well worth it though. PS: Thanks Dave M, I will revert to Mode 4 for the mixers.
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I don't think the props look too large and I agree with insurance over scale or nothing. You are spending lots of time and lots of wedge on her, so you don't want to cut corners on the ability to avoid and fend off and risk sinkable damage as weight weight and momentum will be impressive %%
The work is looking good Bob. Regarding your comment on the project coming along slowly, you cannot rush such a project especially because of the huge amount of new technology you are installing. Her size is good reason to pace yourself, as she will become a little more cumbersome to handle as you add more fittings and internal gubbins. I am getting excited now as she may be sailing next year at Wicky :O)
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Thanks. I am just being extra careful as this giant is taking me beyond my previous experience and techniques. So much changes when the size doubles. Ian K's prototype uses 40 mm props so I am confident in those, however it does take the blade tips very close to the keel-plane. I am keeping a close eye of weight (displacement) as I go.
Collision avoidance at 29 kg and 7 feet is a worry. Some new transmitters have an altitude setting. Does this mean I could go over other vessels if I had one?
Wicky is the ultimate "target", to make sure HMS Iron Duke has someone to fire back at her. :D
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If you have milliput left, it might be worth squeezing a pile into the bow and stern's pointy bits, just to reinforce the hull up in case of collision. The ends will take some force if the inevitable happens.
Meanwhile - looking good. I think the prop increase is justified. But (am I wrong?) I rather thought battleships of the era were all four-props, twin-rudders?
Andy
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That is wise advice Andy, I will reinforce both bow and stern. The GRP thickness is not that much more than a hull half the length. I am intending to cast the vulnerable secondary armament gun barrels in grey rubber as these too will be vulnerable to the concrete edges of our lake. I like the way Ron K has the very tall masts of Agincourt folding to make them less fragile for transport and handling. At this size and weight all detail becomes delicate.
The propellers are quoted as 9 foot 6 inches, which scales to 30.2 mm at 1/96. I have fitted 40 mm. All the info I have shows a single rudder, although two might have been more effective.
On costs, I will require quite a few large SLA batteries; electronics; seven GRP turrets and what will undoubtedly be a very extensive fittings kit. On overall costs I am basing my estimate on the Dean's flagship models, plus a factor.
I knew and accepted that before I started.
At Black Park we have a new member with several 6 foot paddle steamers, including Queen of Glasgow and Waverley. I will be taking notes on how he handles big ships. Our big lake can get quite crowded sometimes.
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I reckon we need more Kaiserliche Marine ships to keep you Jack Tars in your place!
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You are right. We do need Jutland adversaries !
A few subtle adjustments to the motors fit, adding very thin shims of Neoprene between each motor and its half cylinder aluminium shoe, adjusting each so that the motor runs quietly in good alignment. Very quiet running.
Although each motor is only 1.9 A, the four together max's at 7.6 A. A lot of 12V battery Ah capacity required.
Looking for things to get on with before buying the propulsion electronics . . .
Probably a good time to cut out the secondary armament apertures, and build dummy decks behind to mount the guns in.
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Steering Flat
Moving forwards, the steering flat has been installed. Supporting a 9kg / cm metal geared servo.
I just thought a meaty servo would help with the size of the rudder, and turning the boat.
It almost looks lost in there doesn't it?
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-WGNwMD9/0/2a0c0240/M/steering-flat-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-WGNwMD9/A)
Propulsion Electronics
Well, bit the bullet. A large consignment from Component Shop is on the way, mostly Action Electronics. A P92 distribution board, two P93 controllers, a P94 twin controller with mixer, fuse boards, plus a load of 14 AWG silicon wire in various colours, and twenty spade connectors for batteries and motors.
Calculations vs weighed items
At Wicksteed Park the displacement was established, by lead weights, at 29kg. All the planning was to achieve 19kg “dry” weight for launching, supplemented by another 10kg of pumped water ballast when afloat. With a 2.2M hull you might start thinking how are you going to add enough ballast to hold it down. Since then I have been keeping a careful tally on the weights of components as the ship develops. However . . .
I have a bit of a problem. Controlling the weight, even on such a huge 7 foot ship, is proving to be harder than I thought.
To start with the stainless steel telescopic tubes, essential to fitting the hull halves together, total 4kg. Add to that 3kg of Buhler motors, shafts and props. I will also need a sizable array of chunky SLA batteries, for the propulsion and gunfire system in four turrets. Of course the ply bulkheads and decks had to be robust enough to do the job on a vessel of this size.
As I keep adding stuff, and putting hull halves on the scales, it is all going OTT. So much so that first I needed to abandon the pumped water ballast and reconcile myself to having to lift the whole ship as-is. Even then, weight reduction is rapidly becoming a priority. So. 2 x 10Ah at 12V for the motors, plus 4 x 5Ah 12V for the guns. 13 kg in total. That only gives me 2kg left for superstructure and wiring. Yippes !
Turrets
I am greatly indebted to both C-3PO for his ongoing development work on the Arduino turret bearing control system, and to Geoff for his kind assistance in helping me replicate his amazing gun fire effects. Right now, though I have plenty to be getting on with.
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Looking good Bob :-))
Is the servo slightly off-set to starboard? It’s hard to judge but I’d recommend having two arms going to the tiller because (in the past from bitter experience) it’s possible to get prop wash to ‘flip’ the rudder around and jam. Having two arms prevents this happening and there is a second back up just in case the first falls off.
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Thank you Nick. The servo is exactly on the centre line, 100mm each side to the hull edge, must be the angle of the photo.
Having two arms sounds a good idea. I was not sure if they might interfere with each other.
I will probably reinforce the rudder tube. It is quite stiff with the brass inside, but fairly long to make sure it is well above the waterline.
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Hm, I feel she might be a deep runner and you may need to bring her along to sail on days when you know you can ask people to help lift her in and out. It's one of the cons of the larger model, impressive though they are. Still, you are making good progress Bob.
Could you grind some of the milliput away to give you some grams of spare weight. A board margin if you will?
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You are probably right Ian. There are usually at least a dozen or so around on our regular sailing sessions, as it might come to that.
I am taking notes from Nick's build of HMS Invincible, he is using fairly light thicknesses of styrene to build his superstructure. I will follow his lead. I have a good idea on the weights of the working turrets, and that should not add much significantly.
In the mean time I am constructing open retaining boxes for the Action P93's and P94, with a thin strip of Velcro to secure. Makes them easier to access when the decks are secured in place. More later . . .
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Bob,
With weight considerations in mind and so important, I make the following suggestion. It is based on the power needs of a 1/16 PT boat drive by Astroflite motors. It is an expensive suggestion, but... Rather than SLA batteries, have a look at Lithium Iron Oxide replacement batteries. Available inn the same shape and dimension as 12v 7.5 ah SLA's but at 1/2 the weight. Added advantage is the Lithium are not constrained by low current discharge rates. I enclose a link to one site that carries them here, but I am sure that you can obtain them there on your side of the pond.
https://www.wholesalebatteriesdirect.com/lithium-batteries/66438-12-volt-10-ah-lifepo4-lfp12v10-lithium-iron-phosphate-battery.html
Jonathan
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Bob, here's a handy rule-of-thumb. Standard plastikard sheet sizes are 9x13 inches.
12 sheets of 1mm = 1kg
Andy
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Andy: Luckily there is not that much superstructure involved, weight-wise. I will be using balsa for bases, to keep things square, then building up from there. Much as I like Qualcraft ships boats I will probably heat-form them from thin ABS sheet and detail. There are a lot of them and cast resin weight mounts up.
Akira: I have been looking into these batteries. That particular one is not available in the UK. Not sure what the pros and cons of Lithium Iron Oxide are, apart from being around half the weight. Anyone else used them?
They are even more expensive here, googling similar packs.
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Bob,
This is from Wiki and explains the pros and cons pretty well. Hopefully they are available to you in some form. Yes they are quite expensive, but the trade is safety, discharge rate and weight.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery
Jonathan
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Power control electronics
A bit of planning required on how to mount and wire the controls for the four motors, bearing in mind that three barbettes are also in this space..
An Action P92 power distribution board, centrally positioned. Two mounting lugs to position it, plus Velcro / adhesive servo pad. Two Action P93 high power multi controllers for the inboard pair of Buhler’s, mounted in fixed ABS boxes on hull sides with Velcro straps. The P94 dual 20A ESC’s with mixer mounted in another ABS box between the outer motors. With the deck fitted in place I need to be able to easily access internal wiring, hence the readily removable units. Undo the Velcro and pop them out.
Wire routing so that ESC outputs are reasonably close to their respective motors, and that power and control wiring can be loomed well apart from each other. Minimum wires to connect power from this compartment to the batteries mid-ships. Max diameter DC wiring wherever possible, 14 AWG. Rx to be mounted towards the rear of this compartment, close under deck.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-NhC4Lwd/0/c8ffa1ee/M/Action-units-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-NhC4Lwd/A)
Hopefully the wiring will come out as neatly as I intend.
Batteries
I have been having a good search online for UK sources of Lithium Iron Oxide equivalent batteries, without success. Either very small ones or car battery size.
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I thought the distribution board was quite big until I saw it dwarfed not only by the hull, but also by the motors! The space between the outer motors is about as much room as I have for all the electronics in my Destroyer!
You will ony have a problem if you forgot something while planning, otherwise it should all go to your plans.
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Actually, the P92 distribution board is wider than my Dean's HMS Amazon destroyer !
A lot of wiring connectivity in a compact board, and it includes a BEC circuit. There is a tad over 100mm between the outer motors, where the P94 resides. Distance between outer shafts is more than the beam of my Dean's HMS Skirmisher.
As usual I will spend a large amount of time checking and rechecking all the wiring connections first.
I intend commissioning one motor at a time, starting with the inners, making sure I get the prop directions right, and by taking DC direct to each outer motor in turn. Obviously I need to power up the outer controllers together as a set as they are from the dual controller.
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Wiring
My new Planet T7 is up and running with receiver bound. I first got the port inner motor and it’s P93 controller running, then the starboard inner motor and P93. Both very sweet with good throttle response. Temporarily disconnecting them I next worked on wiring up the P94 dual 20A ESC’s with mixer to the two outer motors. I like to be ultra careful with electrics, working on one circuit section at a time, checking and rechecking.
All OK (phew). The three Action boxes work the throttle and steering as I want, all that remained was to adjust the pot in the dual controller so I got just the amount of mixing I wanted. ie: Anything more than 25 degrees of port rudder and the port outer progressively slows. With outer shafts 160mm apart that should help manoeuvring nicely.
If I say so myself the wiring has come out fairly neat, with power and control well separated. See photo below.
The Action P92 distribution board used really helps keep things tidy.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-rPqFQ8Z/0/d0413424/M/motors-wired-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-rPqFQ8Z/A)
Whilst in that compartment I added the second rudder linkage as Nick suggested.
I am nearly at the stage for final fitting of the deck, just need to drill-through for the Neodymium hatch magnets.
Bow Half
With the after hull just needing batteries, turret mechanisms with controls, and detailing, I need to start thinking about the fore end of the hull. No propulsion issues, that’s all in the aft half, this end of the hull is almost solely dedicated to turrets and fire control. I will only be firing four of the seven turrets, three in the front half, but all will train towards the bearing I set.
Another milestone completed. That is by far the most complex propulsion system I have ever wired up. %%
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"That is by far the most complex propulsion system I have ever wired up. (http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/Smileys/Tug/cheesy1.gif) "
And yet that is a nice simple looking loom Bob. The number of components etc suggested potential wiring chaos!
Onwards and upwards :-))
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Not a lot to report, but now the propulsion system is running nicely, and I am making progress on the decks, I can start to feel more confident of eventually completing a successful ship for me to sail. With the decks (unfixed) in place and the hatches fastened down with pairs of magnets she already looks impressive.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-vjF2dvG/0/95d6806a/M/decks-on-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-vjF2dvG/A)
Hatches: 7mm holes in deck panels, circular magnets same thickness as hatch pressed in and epoxied. 5mm lugs under the deck, also with same magnets. Nice feel as the three big hatches firmly self-seat themselves.
Time to start planning the superstructure. I am going to do the bases in 10mm balsa, with 5mm balsa for intermediate decks. That way I can use 0.5mm styrene and 1mm ply for the vertical surfaces providing that I reinforce the internal corners. All helps keep the overall weight down.
I am ordering the seven fibreglass turrets from Dean’s as we are nearing the point where I can plan fitting out the barbettes. These will be quite complex, having both Geoff’s amazing gunfire system, together with C-3PO’s Arduino controlled T.A.R.G.E.T automatic bearing control. Combining these two systems will, hopefully, give an effect on the water that I cannot wait to see.
The main control board knows where North is. A knob on the transmitter sets the bearing angle relative to North. The guns then train continuously on that bearing, providing each individual turret will bear, maintaining that bearing even as the ship changes course. Add to that very effective gunfire smoke with ultra bright LED flash. More on that later!
Before all that, the superstructure, detailing in the casements and torpedo net booms. ( I am trying not think of the vast amount of deck planking.) and converting the platform on my trolley to a much longer double-decker version.
No rush. One step at a time. O0
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thank you ballastanksian for your kind words. For some time I kept wondering if I had bitten of more than I could build %%
The combined bearing and gunfire system (if I can get mine going) will be due to the extensive and appreciated development work of both Geoff & C-3PO. :-))
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Well, you've planned the build like a military campaign so far Bob, so I expect the rest will follow on at a measured and considered pace.
In many ways your build will be a demonstration that developed technologies can not only work, but be built by another person and be understood, that several technologies can be combined and work.
Fellow members will see their extensive testing and developent of turret control technologies on a real ship (certainly the most main turrets anyone will see working!) in sync with Geoff's smoke and light system.
In the modern age where it is harder to find a new and exciting 'first', you will definitly get the model boating fraternity looking!
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Casemate Openings
Next up was creating fourteen casemate embrasures, ten in the fibreglass hull and four in the plywood ‘step’ between the fore and aft deck levels. For some reason the ply apertures came out a few mm above the ones in the hull sides. I believe I have the deck heights correct, but the step depth seems shorter than the hatch rectangles moulded into the hull.
Oh well, looks like I should have ignored to embossed rectangles. Now I have to re-cut them higher to match.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-8VCZLr3/0/9a132c0c/M/apatures-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-8VCZLr3/A)
After carefully finishing off the rectangles, using a size gauge for consistency, I made up sets of doors for them, adding the hinge bars and hinge pins. One question I am searching to find an answer for is about these doors. Obviously designed to hinge close, but were the very long gun barrels fully retracted into the hull or were there semi-circular openings that closed around the barrels? The barrels are very long, and I find it difficult to see how the whole gun mounting could have been withdrawn that far into the hull.
Once I have figured that out I will fit the doors in their open positions, then make up parts of the inner gun deck and its detail.
I am still contemplating whether to make the secondary armament barrels from cast silicon rubber as they will be very vulnerable to damage on the model when coming alongside and in transport. Protrusions up to 50mm beyond the hull are asking for trouble. The torpedo net booms will also need careful consideration as they too could be liable for quayside grinding. I have some ideas I am working on.
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There was a thread concerning the retracting of secondary armament here a couple of years ago almost certainly to be found on the Warships R&D page. I recall Colin Bishop was a regular contributor to the debate and recall it concerned Victorian era ships. You may find more detail to answer your question there after a quick hunt.
On the matter of rubber barrels, it reminds me of a book I read at college by an author who made models of cars using prototype materials and engineering practices. He made his tyres by machining two part moulds from acrylic (Perspex) and then scribing in the tread. He would then syringe a suitable silicone rubber coloured black and could see that the rubber had filled all the orifaces.
While machining a mould would be a challange, machining a barrel and making a two part mould from acrylic resin would allow you to produce rubber barrels in a similar way. I think you would need a stiffer rubber so that the barrels didn't droop.
Casting rubber barrels with a slight upward curve to counter the worst of the droop would be possible, but some experimenting woud be required to get the 'Anti droop' right! Other possibilities might include resin barrels made in two sections with strong elastic through them so that any impact would temporarily distort the barrel before the elastic pulled it back into shape- Think collapsible walking stick concept, or a single piece barrel set on the end of a spring.
Alternatively, have all the barrels as maximum traverse ahead or rear and hope their lesser protrusion would lessen the risk of damge. Alternatively, try a combination of these ideas %%
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Yes, there was a discussion a while back. It concerned the pre dreadnoughts where the 6 inch secondary armament could be retracted into the gun deck. I'm not sure that it was possible to do the same with the dreadnought battleships though. The guns always appear to be protruding from the hull.
As Ballsatankian says, perhaps best to have all the secondary armament trained as far inboard as possible and avoid concrete pondsides!
Colin
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Thank you both gentlemen, some good food for thought. I will have a trawl through those Mayhem sections,
I know the Minotaur and Cressy type secondary armament did protrude, with hatch covers that closed over the barrels. The lower deck guns often could not be used except in relatively calm conditions.
These barrels really look long, both from pictures and the plans. Difficult to see how they could be fully retracted.
Of course the real ship never had to contend with concrete lake edges or double decker transport trolleys !
Some excellent ideas there Ian. A principle danger is that forward facing barrels will tend to impact end-on.
She will need to come close in so we can get the lifting straps in place.
Maybe a sprung telescopic 2 section barrel, mounted in a rubber block? Some trials needed.
I am a little miffed about the hull cut-outs, having followed the embossed rectangles on the hull. It was only after cutting out the ply step apertures I noticed the disparity. Life !
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I suspect that part of the problem is that the more modern guns had longer barrels so they could not be withdrawn into the hull.
If you think that protruding detail is likely to be a problem, and I do appreciate your concern on this, then a possible option would be to fit underwater fenders in the form of bent piano wire which could be mounted in hull sockets and project horizontally along the midships part of the hull to protect the hull detail. They would be invisible in operation but keep the side of the hull sufficiently clear of concrete pool sides etc.
Colin
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Here it is....from 2105.......well worth re-reading Bob O0
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,50193.0.html
Derek
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I believe it was more a question of the mountings. Victorian Battleships had different mountings "Vasseure" or something like that meant when the gun fires it moved backwards up a slope so it was possible to pull the guns back even further for maintenance. I believe the subsequent pedestal mount became the standard as it was much lighter and more flexible in train. The 6" guns would have been very similar to Iron Duke so would not have been able to be pulled back into the hull.
Rubber may be okay or perhaps metal in a spring so if hit they can bend?
Cheers
Geoff
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Yes, that makes sense Geoff. Am I right in saying that the pedestal mount came in with the QF version of the 6 inch gun?
Colin
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Correct! Also foxed ammunition sped up the rate of fire.
Cheers
Geoff
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You guys are a super mine of information and constructive suggestions. Many thanks.
I remember that thread, I believe whilst Nick was building HMS Prince George.
HMS Agincourt was fitted with eighteen BL 6-inch Mk XIII 50-calibre guns, which equates to a barrel length of 25 feet - very long. Rate of fire was about five to seven rounds per minute, which implies QF and therefore pedestal mounted. As I can find no photos of her with guns retracted I am going to assume they were fixed, and provide semi-circular barrel apertures in the hatch doors.
Colin: Now that is a really neat alternative to providing protection to the overhanging detail parts. Underwater piano wire fenders, easily fitted just before launch, and readily replaced if they get bent. I like it :-))
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My two pennies worth.....
Maybe have the barrels in 2 sections, threaded, mount small stepper motor so outer portion of barrel can retract/extend. As I say just a thought.
This by the way is a really wonderful build and look forward to further installments........ :-))
Stewart
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I'm not convinced underwater piano wire fenders would be effective, not least of which the possibility of damage to other models but more likely they could be punched through the side. The guns on ID turn so that in the event of a collision they will rotate thus ameliorating the impact and in a way acting as fenders.
Besides, rather like the Titanic your never going to get the damage you design for!
Cheers
Geoff
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By way of suggestion re the secondary guns, I suggest that any form of rubber would be the wrong way to go. They'd take the punishment but after a while they'd start to sag, even with a metal core. Would a white metal barrel not be a better idea, perhaps even with a metal core. White metal will bend, but can be re-shaped, and more importantly won't sag, plus if you make or cast enough they can be replaced easily if the get damaged too much.
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Unfortunately these guns overhang so massively that I am guaranteed to break several each time I move it, let alone sail it. Eighteen of them. Nature of the beast.
Casemate Rework
Bit the bullet. Opened up the top of the casemate openings by 5mm, to match the deck-step gun openings. Thank goodness for Dremel “diamond dust” cutting disks, slicing through the hull plus rough dressing the top edges. Now to make up some 5mm tall filler panels from styrene to adjust the bottom edges upwards. Quite a bit of fiddly work with white filler and filing smooth afterwards. Made-up some 5mm & 10mm wide sanding blocks with wood, grit paper and impact adhesive,
That looks better, even if it meant one step back to make two forwards.
Next the casemate doors. Unfurling the 8 foot plans, each casemate had three doors, two outer ones folding outwards plus a centre one folding down. Cut-outs for gun barrel split between the centre and one outer door. The secondary armament did protrude, with the position of the door cut-outs dictating the “secured” gun positions at sea. I am doing mine as cleared for action, so with doors folded outwards. Just to make it interesting most of the gun positions have doors of different lengths.
Cut strips the width of the apertures, same height, then sectioning the doors as per plans with the cut-outs for the gun barrels. Add the hinge plates and pins, and Ciano onto the hull face.
Yes, I did take the gun positions into account when determining the hull split point and positions of bulkheads. Advance planning required at each stage.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-VMV4zRP/0/e9ba1cbf/M/casemate-hatches-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-VMV4zRP/A)
Next will be inner sub decks to mount the cylindrical outer faces of the guns, with their angled facing plates. I will use slot car rubber tyres for mounting the gun barrels in, 18 dia x 10, exact size. A bit of improvisation.
It was handy that I happened to have 180 brass etched porthole eyebrows in 1/96, and need 176 of them for this ship. When I have done that I will start on the torpedo net booms. That should be fun. Now I am getting to do some detailing I am a happy bunny.
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I have not tried piano wire fenders but I don't see why they shouldn't work. They would only protrude an inch or two from the side of the boat to clear any above deck protrusions so should not be a danger to other models, in fact they should fend them off. The locating sockets could be brass tube let into the side of the model and blocked off at the inboard end. The tubes would be supported internally to absorb any shock loads. The natural springiness of the piano wire would assist in absorbing any impacts.
Basically you would just take a length of piano wire, bend 90 degrees angle in each end and spring them into the reinforced sockets. The naturalspringiness of the wire would help in absorbing any collision shocks.
Colin
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I am still considering ways of protecting overhanging side detail, but thin wire "U" side fenders sounds a good option.
A set of seven fibreglass turrets are on their way from Dean’s Marine. When barrels fitted barrel each one is half the length of my HMS Royal Marine.
More Casemate Work
HMS Agincourt is best known as having the greatest number of main armament guns ever mounted on a warship. Fourteen BL 12-inch MK XII in seven twin turrets. I am currently finding that her secondary armament of twenty single BL 6-inch Mk XII, 14 in casemates, was equally impressive. I have been constructing three casemate door sets for each, three doors apiece, with their twin hinge plates and hinges. That is 84 sets of hinge detail parts. She also carried ten 3-inch guns.
These fourteen sets of doors kept me amused for several days. Yes, the centre doors have one hinge angled due to cut-out position.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-pHRQWWc/0/e3df12bd/M/casmates-2-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-pHRQWWc/A)
The soft rubber slot car racing tyres have arrived so I can start work on the gun mountings with their angled casemate facings.
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Some nice work going on- I know that you were itching to start the interesting details! %)
You certainly won’t regret using the turrets- I’ve got some early versions (well in design!) on my Invincible that they look really good on the barbettes.
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Thank you Nick :-))
The set of seven fibreglass turrets from Dean’s Marine have arrived. Really nice set of fibreglass castings. Temporary use of roll of tape to show effect.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-5dB232V/0/7d197572/M/guns-1-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-5dB232V/A)
Overhanging detail problem
Just to demonstrate the potential problems of vulnerable detail projecting outside the hull, below is a photo of Black Park lakeside showing the navigation hazards when coming alongside with a much larger boat than shown. Wooden posts, before you even get to the rough concrete edges.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-9h4XMW7/0/5992a2fe/M/lake-edge-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-9h4XMW7/A) Naff mobile phone image, I left my Fujifilm SD card at home!
With the forward facing secondary armament trained as far inboard as they will go it still leaves a vulnerable 30mm protrusion zone along a third of the hull. Whatever you do, with 29Kg behind it, that is going to break off anything vulnerable.
The following details from the plans shows the extent of the problem
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-wsSfXFx/0/fa26746a/M/pans-1-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-wsSfXFx/A)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-SC93wgS/0/915b8f59/M/plans-2-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-SC93wgS/A)
Even with guns at maximum inboard rotation there is extensive overhanging detail for a considerable portion of the hull length. By the time I add torpedo booms and nets, plus the Admirals walk at the stern I am contemplating various methods of damage limitation.
[1] Casting gun barrels in rubber, [2] Mounting barrels in neoprene blocks, [3] Using telescopic sprung sections of brass tubes, [4] Piano wire "U" fenders.
I will have to don the Bagpuss Hat. %%
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I just rather doubt if rubber would look right, and if the guns do bend then it just leaves the other overhanging stuff vulnerable. If you spring load the gun barrels it won't protect them against anything other than head on impact. It will still be possible to wrench them all off if you 'curb' the model. {:-{
That was my thinking when I suggested piano wire underwater fenders. Get the shape right, maybe a bow curve with right angle ends to fit into the sockets and they should deal with glancing blows as well as 90 degree impacts. Being springy they will absorb a lot of any impact. The sockets in the hull can be brass tube, securely mounted and reinforced within the hull and all that will appear on the outside is an apparent discharge pipe.
Colin
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I think underwater fenders would still be problematical as:
1) Even if "U" shaped they would need to project about 2" from the side to protect the barrels which means they would catch on things.
2) If underwater they would catch every piece of weed, leaf, stick etc which would give considerable drag and be unsightly.
3) With the flare at the bow on most ships they still wouldn't avoid collision damage to any great degree
Cheers
Geoff
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I am sure most of us have encountered damage during transport and sailing, but I believe this ship takes the biscuit in terms of the likelihood of regular damage potential.
Colin: The more I think on it the more I believe you right. The shaped spring wire fenders could be fitted lakeside. Getting the right balance of protective springiness and bendability for forming could be key. It only needs to absorb and slow contact, rather than be an almost solid ‘crash barrier’. The other issue is transport, with three doors to negotiate between workshop and car, plus transport itself. I am designing a new two-deck platform for my boat trolley which also needs consideration for vulnerable protrusions.
I am assuming that the real ship would mostly have anchored offshore, of if it came alongside the secondary armament would have been above the level of the quayside.
Geoff: The foremost item of vulnerability is 700mm from the bow, so the fender could start just ahead of this with a 30 degree angle from the hull, and about a cm below waterline. I had even considered a 30mm thick shaped block of Neoprene each side, but this would be difficult to mount.
Other point of vulnerability most of us have encountered is very tall mast structures. Luckily Ron K’s prototype has an excellent solution. The roofs of the fighting tops cleverly hinge back for transport, with a natty system of folding the rigging with it. That keeps the overall height under 500mm for transporting.
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Bob,
Could you deploy stand-off arms (via servo) or telescoping poles?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KK_ebAdOiRw
C-3PO
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Take a set of floating dock sides with the tops below the guns. Attach to the side of the pond before sailing, now you can come alongside safely.
Jim
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Geoff, I'm not sure you have understood my suggestion, my fault probably. The idea is to have a single horizontal length of wire on each side that curves smoothly out from the the hull, a bit like the upper edge of an underwater bulge but far enough out from the hull along the midships to protect the guns etc. The ends would be bent over and plug into sockets fore and aft. Some experimentation would be needed with the gauge as it would have to be strong enough to 'bounce' the hull off a glancing alongside contact with pondsides or other models without losing too much flexibility.
Obviously this would only protect the major part of the sides of the ship. Something else would be needed to protect the stem from a head on impact but again a sprung wire shape could perhaps be devised.
Colin
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Take a set of floating dock sides with the tops below the guns. Attach to the side of the pond before sailing, now you can come alongside safely.
Jim
This would seem a very simple solution - perhaps 22mm pipe insulation with a broom stick in the centre to give it weight and stop it flapping about in the wind, or weighted 22mm plastic pipe in a frame covered in insulation to give it bulk- somehow attached to side of pond - floating in the water below the guns. Perhaps it might need to be doubled using 2 strips with cable ties to make adequate stand-off ...Could even be chopped up into 12-18" lengths attached to each other with a ring at each end to aid transport
(http://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2017/11/20/22mmpipeinsulation.jpg)
C-3PO
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Two separate issues here I think. One is launch and recovery when the model should be under control and the handler has a way of buffering the model from the bankside as per the previoys post. The other is how to deal with situations where the model might not be under control ir where it is sideswiped by another boat, not an uncommon occurrence during free sailing sessions unfortunately. I think the model is more likely to be damaged when out on the pond than when being launched or recovered although that does not mean that care needs to be taken when doing so.
Colin
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Good point Colin - maybe I should have read the whole post...
A fascinating dilemma. Could the gun mounts or what the mounts are mounted on (assuming accessible to replace) be made sacrificial perhaps from very thin wood (balsa)or a brittle material. Even with the most sophisticated protection system I guess the worst culprit as Bob hinted at will be a human manoeuvring the model from A to B or in/out of the car. Like most modellers I have a box of "bits" that have been knocked off my boats- the most frustrating element is the more careful I try to be I always seem to catch something - indeed it seems sometimes that I only have to look at at model and off pops another part...
C-3PO
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I think you've just described the third situation there C-3PO. An invisible force field is clearly needed to protect the model while in transit. Must be a suitable Arduino circuit out there somewhere. :-)
Colin
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Incredible ingenuity chaps. Not sure how much is practical though. A telescopic fender boom would need directing, and a floating quayside boom would be a lot to transport and rig up lakeside. As C-3PO said “it seems sometimes that I only have to look at a model and off pops another part...”. I have that T Shirt !
An Arduino powered force field - Now that's an idea %%
Transporting the monster
Speaking of transporting, I am currently working on adapting my Silver Cross push chair trolley to carry both 2.1m hull halves, double-decker style. Two 900mm x 400mm platforms in 10mm ply. The bottom one recessed for the trolley handle pivots platform, with wood battens to locate in the frame, as per the original. I found some nice wardrobe rails with three hole mounting flanges. Four half metre 20mm diameter tubes locate in these to assemble the top deck on in the car park. Very little extra stuff to carry, the two flat decks snuggle into my small boot along with the folded trolley.
The deck tops will be surfaced with thin bathroom carpet, both as cushioning and anti-slip.
Effectively just a two level version of my existing trolley top, but a bit longer.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-bkq6PjR/0/b8bef549/M/platform-plan-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-bkq6PjR/A)
I have cut the plywood, just needs fitting the frame guide battens; carpet; tube mounts; and plastic “U” channel edging. Give me a couple of days and will have photos of the finished ship carrier.
Even getting it to the lake edge intact would be a major achievement {-)
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Bob,
Just make sure its not top heavy as a hollow or bump on the ground could cause a disaster!
With ID I made an "A" frame with two wheels at the base and a carry handle at the apex. The concepts being the base gives stability and my arm provides some suspension. Now my "A" frame isn't long enough to support ID so I made some extension arms which go under/over the horizontal bar of the "A" so it locks into place. This then gives me a long trolley to pull and importantly because it breaks into two parts readily fits in the car.
Cheers
Geoff
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I have taken her to the Black Park Regatta, to test carrying the two hulls on my trolley (behind table) and assembling it on site. With the decks still conveniently flat I stacked the halves on my trolley, with a couple of long elastic straps.
The two decker conversion should make it easier. Half a meter is more than enough from keel to spotting tops.
At least there is a flat path from the car park.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-vTSMc83/0/71279e7c/M/at-regata-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-vTSMc83/A)
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An issue that came to me while watching the new Poseidon film Saturday evening (Sorry {:-{ ) is the effects of roll neutralising any benefits from fitting fenders etc. Theoretically, being a lump Agincourt should not roll as much as a small model and so be better able to be controlled except in choppy conditions, but any impact may cause wobbling and possible swiping of detail when the hull is leant over offering the guns and anti torpedo net over and/or beyond the protection. If the fenders are wide enough then this should lessen the issue.
Another thing that occurs to me is that some ponds have reeds and overhanging bushes etc and, again, this will be problematic and possibly render fenders etc innefective.
As per usual, nearly every situation will be free from any problems, but that one occasion when the power fails, or the wind picks up, or someone puts a boat in and fails to control it properly............
Wire fenders will be of minimal weight and minimal visual disturbance and may well provide just enough protection.
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Bob......throughout the ages, yes....Capital ships after launching were coaled, ammunitioned, stored & manned at anchor...actual dockings alongside would been the exception over the rule
A question to ask is how long do you plan to sail the vessel each day......1 x 30 minutes.....the a cupper.....another 1 x 30 minutes then a quick walk to the loo :embarrassed:...then another 1 x 30 minutes etc
This could take up 4 or 5 hours..........you could consider manufacturing 2 wooden lattice floating blocks with soft external fenders that could be tied off on pond walls...or stacked in the water for ponds with no deep bank
I watched BB63 Missouri berth at Garden Island just outside my office window :o.....obviously prepared......two floating wooden blocks were placed & secure to the wharf...the out by of these were the inflated tubular fenders...so the Port side of her hull was say 15 feet off the wharf
I understand the wire hoops that Colin has suggested...my only concern is that a lighter draft vessel [dingbat captain] could still damage any protruding secondary gun mount barrels
Derek
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You are correct Derek, large capital ships would only rarely have to come alongside a quay, hence the very large number of ships boats for moving personnel and stores. Your account of USS Missouri reminds me of seeing the new HMS Queen Elizabeth II carrier enter Portsmouth for the first time. Alongside the quay built for her were two large pontoons with inflatable fenders.
To answer your question, my usual sailing session time is two hours, which defines my battery choices. Once on the water I tend to sail continuously, only coming alongside at the end. Water traffic tends to be high, which has me worried as with this ship it is not going to be as easy to evade the melee of zigzagging smaller vessels. I am currently taking tips from a new member with some lovely six foot paddle steamers.
As for overhanging braches etc, we have a member who has been known to surreptitiously bring a 7 foot tree pruning tool to alleviate this mainly yachting hazard. Springer tugs help clear other floating debris.
With thanks to everyone’s appreciated input I think I will incorporate a balance of solutions to the fragile detail issue, knowing stuff is going to break off whatever I do. Thin wire removable fenders plus mounting the side guns in shaped blocks of Neoprene. I am going to have to pick my launching site carefully, away from the worst of the outward leaning wooden posts. A small box pontoon with foam fender may be necessary. Bow and stern thrusters would be cheating of course {-)
I will be working on the trolley conversion over the next couple of days.
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for berthing alongside your lake Bob, i would be inclined to use 2 deep x 2 long pool noodles
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That sounds a good idea Klunk. I know you are familiar with Black Park.
Not sure of the diameter it says 6.5cm / 2.56 " o/diameter. Anyway, ordered two lengths.
Not sure how I am going to anchor it, but worth a try. Maybe washing line and weights.
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When we were down a couple of years ago we anchored it by tying off from the top of the bank up near the frequency control/ notice board. There are planks against the bank there. Its a long drop though for that big boat
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Less than a foot down to the water Klunk . . .
Transporter
Transporting a more than seven foot ship required a new approach that involved remaking the carrier on my Silver Cross pushchair. Two 12mm plywood boards 900 x 430, covered with water resistant carpet tiles and supported with stainless tubes and sockets. Some 14mm U channel plastic trim finishes off the edges.
Seen here today with HMS Skirmisher on the lower deck. HMS Agincourt will have one hull half secured on each deck.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-JmVp4f8/0/c0b69d01/M/Ddecker-trolley-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-JmVp4f8/A)
It collapses down to not much more room in the boot as my original carrier, together with the folded down push chair frame on end.
That leaves the whole folded down back seats for the two hull halves.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-BR5PwTD/0/5c1c808b/M/trolley-in-boot-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-BR5PwTD/A)
Now I’ve got the transporter done I can finally move about in my little workshop again, instead of climbing over Workmate; carpet tiles; push chair and large sheets of ply. The model alone takes up two thirds of the length of the room.
Back to the detailing, which I love.
In the words of the Queen song . . . “Don’t stop me now. . . I’m having a good time !”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgzGwKwLmgM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgzGwKwLmgM)
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Definitely thinking outside of the box :-))
I think it’s amazing how much boat you can get in your car!
You maybe interested to know that Ron K is continuing a project he started almost 20 years ago, it’s been sitting at Dean’s Marine since I’ve been visiting. Who knows HMS Invincible, the G3 class battlecruiser might appear on the WPMBC stand at Warwick next year! :o
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Necessity being the mother of invention Nick. Tee Hee !
Ron Dean did show me Ron K's HMS Invincible in the 'garage' last December. At 2.7 metres she makes Agincourt look almost likkle. I really would like to see that finished to his usual high standards. No, it would never fit in my car, even in halves %%
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It doesn’t even fit in my Dad’s van!!! {-) :o
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At almost nine feet long, a 1:96th Hood probably won't fit in most people's vans either!
I am very pleased that a number of the different paths you are progressing up are coming together Bob.
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174 porthole eyebrows, and three days, later . . .
Porthole Eyebrows
Before fitting the torpedo net booms and shelves I needed to fit 176 porthole eyebrows. A long job. The eyebrows divert water away from the top of porthole openings. Brass etchings, each cut from the sheet and teased into a raised lip.
Torpedo nets
These were removed before being taken over by the Royal Navy, along with the over-turrets boat decks and tall topmasts. However, IMO she looked so good with them I have decided to retain them all for this model. ( Also = more detail ! )
Thin hardwood strips added for torpedo net shelves, but before I could do that I had to chisel off the centre fold-down casement doors with a flat Xacto bladed tool. Silly me, when fitting these doors I had not allowed for the rolled netting just below. :embarrassed:
The doors will be reaffixed folding down onto net and shelf. Small angle brackets were added under the shelves as reinforcement. ZIP Kicker proved invaluable where the shelf edge had to be formed to follow the hull curve.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-6cVvfHK/0/819f36ac/M/portholes-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-6cVvfHK/A)
There are sixteen and a half support booms each side, for which I will be using 3mm carbon fibre hollow tube. Small brass eyelets with conical beads at the bottom, and wire eyes at the top. The net will be left off until after painting, but I now have the mesh for it. Very fine plastic coated fibreglass mesh for insect protection. Intension is to roll the netting over a thin Perspex rod.
More later . . .
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Having spent 3/4 hour looking for a topic on HMS Dreadnought that had an elegant way of making and fitting torpedo nets etc, and then my 'xxxxx' of a computer going (insert your fruitiest and most blue expletives here) teenage for another quarter of an hour, all I can say is that there is a topic on the build of a HMS Dreadnought model by Dreadnought72, Warspite or Irons01 that will be of great use to you assuming BotoPh**kit did not hijack their photos. >>:-( >>:-( >>:-( >>:-( >>:-( >>:-( >>:-(
Rant over. The method the chap used to fit his stowed nets was very elegant as he had suffered serious damage caused by a robust halt at the pond side {:-{ and devised a better way.
Your rigols look lovely Bob :-))
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Impressive build Bob, and a great bit of improvisation for your transport issue.
Spare a thought though for a Bloke in my Club who is building a model of the USN aircraft Carrier USS Constellation in 1/72nd scale. At over 15 feet long, and a width of almost 4 feet at the widest part of the flightdeck, she is huge........and he has not even split her in two.
Custom built dolly for lakeside movement and launch, custom built trailer for road transport. We all think he is Bonkers, but full credit to him, she is progressing well. First Seatrial 10th December.
%%
Nige
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Sorry Ian, but I did chuckle at your rant {-)
I will start searching for that article. "Rigol"? I didn't know there was a name for them. Wki Dictionary says "A circle, Diadem". Very apt.
Nige: Now that definitely will NOT fit in my car ! I would love to see photos of the sea trials :-))
I am currently trawling the net looking for better detail information on the fittings for the torpedo booms. So far only numerous small blurry photos and not very detailed descriptions. They do say torpedo nets could be deployed or taken in around 2-3 minutes. Will try looking for other boom fittings from contemporary era.
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...the build of a HMS Dreadnought model by Dreadnought72, Warspite or Irons01...
Not me, unfortunately. My hull's in the attic (awaiting a new building space, and some time from the endless slog of work.) BUT I've been playing with plasticard, recently, and I can confirm "things are happening" above decks. :-) For my torpedo nets, I've saved a pile of metal rods that'll be my net booms. Netting? Not sure yet, I've got my options open.
Andy
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Bob, I will get permission from my Bonkers Mate and post some pics.
Nige
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Thank you Nige. I am looking forward to seeing those photos.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So far this is the best image I can get of torpedo net boom fittings, from HMS Bellepheron in “British Battleships of World War One”.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-NX4rpRp/0/daf8d61d/M/t-boom-joint-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-NX4rpRp/A)
Still not all that clear how this swivel joint is constructed. I am assuming that the top fitting is just an eye ring for the net support cable, plus there will be attachments for all the other deployment cables.
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Bob,
The Anatomy of the Ship series - Dreadnought provides detailed plans of the net booms and how they work and are rigged. I believe they were pretty standard on all ships that used them so that may give you a very good guide. Agincourt is a unique ship and may be different but most ships have the net shelf at deck level with half the shelf outboard and half inboard.
As always very interesting to watch your progress!
Cheers
Geoff
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There are some useful photos online if you Google anti torpedo net
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=anti+torpedo+nets&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=SfcLD167ulynHM%253A%252CiKbe37zVjNhndM%252C_&usg=__4G5wO1x81SK4nwvstWzKfdMqoZU%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjeh8-M9ejXAhUmCsAKHVClAoMQ9QEINTAB#imgrc=Kskf49lUiZhk5M (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=anti+torpedo+nets&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=SfcLD167ulynHM%253A%252CiKbe37zVjNhndM%252C_&usg=__4G5wO1x81SK4nwvstWzKfdMqoZU%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjeh8-M9ejXAhUmCsAKHVClAoMQ9QEINTAB#imgrc=Kskf49lUiZhk5M):
Apparently John Roberts in his Anatomy of the Ship HMS Dreadnought devoted space to describing the anti torpedo nets:
In his book "Anatomy of the Ship, The Battleship Dreadnought" (ISBN:085177895X) John Roberts presents the torpedo net defence in two pages of line drawings and how they were stored and deployed on pages 214 and 215. The net is a series of 2.5" interlocking steel rings and is controlled by two sets of wires. One to deploy and recover the net and the other to deploy and recover the booms that held the net.
Might be worth getting that if you don't have it. You can buy it for around £10 - £12.
Colin
PS 'Snap' Geoff!
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Thank you chaps. Book now on order from Amazon.
I would have expected much more info online on how these assemble and operate. I hate having to guess such information, and try to fudge something up that looks roughly right.
Agincourt had them removed shortly before being taken over by the Royal Navy in 1914, but if I am fitting them they might as well look the job.
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Bob, you WILL love the book. Bearing in mind the RN at the time used 'the collection of parts' in various arrangements on its capital ships, there is MUCH in the book you'll find useful.
...I'd (erroneously!) thought you had it already.
Andy
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I am looking forward to receiving it Andy. I always think my reference library is extensive, until another "must have" gem is pointed out to me. I guess because I had not contemplated building HMS Dreadnaught it had not hit my priority list.
As you say there was so much commonality of parts and equipment in that era, of necessity for repair and replacement around the world, that much of the detail fittings would be the same.
The bottom fitting on the boom looks like a flanged-base ball joint in the photo. I am sure it is something much simpler.
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Torpedo Nets Detail
Book “Anatomy of a Ship. HMS Dreadnaught” just arrived. What a fantastic mine of information. What I really needed was better detail on how the ends of the torpedo net booms were constructed. Wow. Every detail you could ever need.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-NgXBjxb/0/ca10fa49/S/tn-boom-a-S.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-NgXBjxb/A) (https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-QJLxPxw/0/4306ac2a/S/tn-boom-b-S.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-QJLxPxw/A)
And as a bonus, detail on the brailling davits used to deploy the nets. I can ‘t remember ever having seen these on a model of that era before.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-KBDr5H2/0/e8b25191/M/brailling-davit-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-KBDr5H2/A)
More than enough info to construct the net booms. I may even produce 64 davits as well, but not sure if I will go as far as the vast amount of cabling and pulleys for deploying the nets that are also described in great detail.
6 Inch Mountings
Whilst waiting for the book to come I have been working on the secondary armament mountings, which are also vulnerable to being broken off lakeside. From the plans the cylindrical section gun facings scale to 15mm diameter. So, I have some 15mm diameter Neoprene sponge cord to simulate the facings and help absorb minor knocks.
More on that next time . . .
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Told ya! ;)
My current focus is on funnels. ...been inspired, yet?!
Andy
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Battle ship funnels are models in their own right before you even get to stays and any plumbing for smoker tubes etc!
I wonder if Dreadnought had a winch for mine sweeping gear, and wether it might be the same as what Nick and Steve are after? Lovely illustrations, I think we have all learnt a little about the subject today.
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Any detailed sub assembly, such as funnels, are indeed a model in their own right Ian.
Torpedo Nets Detail
Well I did ask for more detailed information on torpedo net booms, but when the book “Anatomy of a Ship. HMS Dreadnaught” arrived I automatically went into my “detailing” mode and tried to reproduce them with the same degree of accuracy. Scuppered myself, as after a week I am still working on them. Each of the 34 booms will be constructed in eight pieces, which unfortunately takes a lot of time.
Had I not seen those two highly detailed pages I would probably have made simple rods with representative “lumps” at the hinging point, much like most other such models I have seen.
I have never seen the Brailling Davits on any model I can recall. More than sixty of them are used to deploy and recover the actual ringed netting.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-KBDr5H2/0/e8b25191/M/brailling-davit-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-KBDr5H2/A)
Whilst at Dean’s Christmas Open Days today I happened to ask Ron if he had ever seen Brailing Davits, whereupon he took me into his parts store and brought out this die-cast one - exactly the right size . . .
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-BNCXzbS/0/2f739e86/M/diecast-b-davit-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-BNCXzbS/A)
OK, so I will not try to fabricate sixty of these as Dean’s can die-cast them in quantity for me.
Apparently the cataloguing for the Semi Kit list of Agincourt fittings is underway as I write. O0
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Die cast or pewter Bob? I ask because if the former, they would be stronger given that Mazak (Die casting alloy) is stonger than pewter in most forms excepting where the harder pewter alloys are also quite brittle. The parts I have got from Deans have so far all been pewter, a material I work with weekly at several levels cast in rubber moulds.
I am not being picky, it is just that, as mentioned above, Mazak would be great for certain parts.
The book on Monitors has thrown up so many interesting extra details for M19 over the last year or so that the model will be almost unrecognisable from the parent kit! So Agincourt will be bursting with details :-))
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"Die cast" as in a hot metallic component poured into a centrifugal machine that can cast many items at once. As I understand it the spinning expels air bubbles and drives the hot metal outwards to fill the moulding cavities. Not sure what metal is used, but the various machines used look very impressive.
At least I will not have to 3D model it and send an STL file for 3D printing such a large quantity, and die cast parts will be inherently stronger.
I will carry on hand crafting the 34 booms. Carbon fibre tube plus various brass wire sizes and small pieces of 3mm heat-shrink.
The hull mountings are 4mm threaded eyes with 5mm deadeyes sliced across. I have a little production line with a micro h/shrink gun.
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Devil in the Detail
As many of you know I am a sucker for detail. Had I found a clearer picture of the joint at the bottom of the torpedo net booms I would have been content to build much simpler representative booms. However, the technical illustrations in “Anatomy of a Ship” meant I could not proceed without going the full monte, including fittings and brailing davits.
On the hull 4mm eyes with 5mm deadeyes sliced in half to form base joints. 3mm carbon fibre tube for the boom, with brass wire detail at the ends, and 3.1 I/D heat-shrink over the boom ends. Finally, some fiddly straps formed from litho-plate, plus stowage chocks carved from ABS section. A dumb move as there are 34 booms that kept me amused for weeks. I needed a large supply of disposable lighters for my micro heat-shrink gun, but when the first batch arrived they were too small so I had to order another lot.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-zmvgWQH/0/bb1e1453/M/booms-parts-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-zmvgWQH/A)
A large pile of part completed booms
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-NMPfzZt/0/4d92831e/M/booms-fitted-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-NMPfzZt/A)
First booms being installed.
I am currently assembling the 34 booms onto the hull. There will be a lot of cables involved with their deployment, plus the roll of netting of course. The netting will not go on the shelves until after spray painting.
Yes, thoroughly O.T.T., but given the detail info it’s what I tend to do.
PS: My complex 4 Buhler motor system with four ACTion electronics units system runs sweet as a nut, as I knew it would.
Special thanks to Dave M and Component Shop for their technical advice and super prompt delivery.
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Wow Bob - looking good
C-3PO
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Stunning detail Bob
You’ve got me interested in my Prince George torpedo net protection again. Lots and lots of interest now! :-)) :-)) ok2
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Bob you going to alley pally?
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Bob you going to alley pally?
Sorry, physically impossible due to my dodgy legs and the snooker finals being held there. I could no more scale that hill again than Mount Everest.
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Don’t worry Klunk I’ll be there on the Saturday with Steve. We can go and get Phil! :}
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Lol. Will see what i can do then!
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? Unsure as to what that question was about?
Anyway, all 34 torpedo net booms finally fitted. Sure is a lot of them. Top shackles were challenging to mount.
Apart from commencing on the basic superstructure islands, I am getting fairly close to the point when I need to start work on the turret mountings - on which all else depends. These will be technically complicated with both TARGET bearing control system and the actual gun smoke firing equipment.
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? Unsure as to what that question was about?
Don’t worry about it bob, I’m going to Alexandria Palace show and klunk is too when he asked yourself.
Keep up the good work. I’m considering using the same materials for my booms too :-))
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Fret not Bob, I think they was gibbering %%
Those booms are so detailed that I will one day refer to these photos to build mine from when building Achilles.
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Oops, my passion for over detailing may have started a "boom" in model torpedo protection ?
Maybe I should make some progress on the secondary armament internals. Can't fix the decks down till the turret internals done, and can't plank the decks until the decks are secured. Same with the superstructure.
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That's a rather neat execution of the Boom Nets Bob >>:-(.... will the Carbon Fibre tube surface need any special priming prior to actual painting?
Derek
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Thank you Derek. I am hoping the carbon fibre parts will not need special treatment, other than the usual thorough washing to degrease, then careful application of a fine scouring pad before the Halfords grey primer rattle cans. Same as the fibre glass. The tubes have already been lightly abraded prior to installing the detail on them.
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Really impressive work on the booms - great attention to detail!
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Six Inch Guns
HMS Agincourt carried 20 six inch guns as secondary armament, fourteen of them in casemate embrasures. Ten of these protrude up to 30 mm outside the hull lines and are therefore very liable to damage on a model. I had considered casting them in fairly stiff rubber, but in the end came up with this solution instead.
Separate ply platforms made up inside the hull with 16 diameter neoprene “bar” to represent the visible facing of the gun mount. Additional sections of 5 mm neoprene sheet for the angled internal side facings. Next I opted for aluminium tube fitted into the neoprene gun mount as this would be light, less likely to snap off, and the neoprene providing a degree of shock protection. Another advantage is that individual barrels are readily replaceable.
Four thickness of K&S tubing used. 3/16 inch dia x 3 inches long for the barrel, 7/32 inch dia for the ticker part of the barrel near the gun mount, and short lengths of 5/32 and 3/16 inch to reduce the I/D of the muzzle end.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-NvD5J65/0/58c12867/M/six-inch-2-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-NvD5J65/A)
Gun in neoprene mount
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-R379MLC/0/e15cd59b/M/six-inch-1-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-R379MLC/A)
Assembled casement
I just need to assemble the remainder of the gun mountings in the hull and hull-step positions, the same as above. The barrel is fairly firm, but able to take slight knocks without damage. A lot of barrel sticking out all the same, so I needed a reasonable solution.
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The added benefit of using the smaller diameter tube at the muzzle is that it creates the slightly protruding inner tube.
I like the idea especially as the initial untidiness of having to cut rubber is hidden neatly inside the casemates.
I bet that is a headache behind you? Good for you Bob.
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Six Inch Guns
Fourteen of the 20 six inch guns are now fitted into the hull using the shaped neoprene mountings described yesterday. The detail inside the casemates does not show very clearly as both the gun mount facing and angled plates are in black Neoprene. They will show better when all sprayed grey.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-WrJ96WH/0/8133114b/M/six-inch-fitted-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-WrJ96WH/A)
Foremost six inch guns
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-pzqDL5h/0/152a315e/M/6-inch-rear-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-pzqDL5h/A)
Detail showing the four guns on the step deck
The remaining six guns are mounted in the superstructure, which will probably be my next area of construction.
At least it is starting to look like a WW1 Battleship, bristling guns like a porcupine. :}
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Seeing that has filled my entusiasm tanks to the brim Bob! Capital ships are beautiful O0 I love those booms very very much.
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Thank you Sir, appreciated. These ships were built to impress with power, to look dangerous. Unlike a modern Type 45 with almost no detail to speak of - but of course a Type 45 can do far more damage at much greater range. They just look flat and unthreatening in comparison though.
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Aft Superstructure
I am nearing the point where I cannot get much further without first trial fitting the barbettes with all the yummy gun fire and bearing control circuitry. So I have made a start on the aft superstructure island. To keep the weight down this is mainly in 1.2 mm ply for the vertical surfaces and 4 mm balsa for the horizontals.
Because the aft superstructure has to align in several planes with the two aft deck panels I was compelled to ‘nail down’ both the rear deck panel and the continuation of the foredeck panel. I was trying to leave that until after sorting out the barbettes, although all the 12 inch guns are in lift off panels.
Main difficulty was in needing to refer between 3 very large plan sheets with the model filling my workbench, plus the plans show her after RN conversion. ie: No aft tripod or boat deck.
A tricky bit of alignment as the centre hatch runs through this six sided island, and aligns with three verticals between the decks step, hence having to secure the aft decks first. Cut-outs made for the apertures for various gun types. To make things interesting the front face is curved, plus the after tripod mast rises through the island’s balsa decks.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-CCftC2M/0/37bf6a00/M/aft-island-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-CCftC2M/A)
A lot of detail still to add, namely the aft funnel; another couple of decks, more guns, and completing the tripod base.
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Crikey,those 6 inch guns poke out everywhere! They must have been a handful to even try and control. The doors look great.
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Main difficulty was in needing to refer between 3 very large plan sheets with the model filling my workbench
Bob, have you considered scanning or copying the plans in sections ? you could then just pin up the relevant part you're working on - just a thought :-)
I know from your postings that your space is limited. :-))
Regards,
Ray.
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Really good work going on here Bob. Reminds me to get a move on with my Invincible project! :-))
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Aft Superstructure
Ray: That is a good idea. Thanks. At present I am part-unrolling plans across the forward deck, but once I start on the main superstructure island I will have nowhere left to unroll them on.
ballastanksian: The uppermost guns are the first of the four inch, although more six inch are mounted in the forward superstructure, which will be more intricate to build. I have to keep re-reading the tech info, and have discovered that the two six inch guns mounted on deck alongside that structure were added after the RN conversion, so “only” 18 six inch as-built. Handy, as these were uniquely mounted with open rear gun shields, unlike all the others which were in casemates.
Nick: I am looking forward to seeing more progress on your Invincible, especially any tips on superstructure building.
I may need to make a start on the main superstructure soon due to certain commonalities such as funnels and tripod masts.
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Does anyone make this type of Six inch as a kit?
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Not as far as I know Iain, although Dean's may include it on their semi-kit fittings list for Agincourt which is due out soon. The extra two 6 inch MkXIII (with open rear gun shields) were fitted after the RN takeover of this vessel, so in my case I will not be fitting those as I am building it to the as-built spec. The rest of the 18 six inch guns are casemate mounted so I just had to make up barrels for them.
I have now made a start on the main superstructure island, which will be a fairly challenging fabrication exercise.
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I'm looking forward to that Bob :-)
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Gun Fire System
I was greatly inspired by the awesome gun fire system developed by Geoff for his beautiful HMS Iron Duke. So much so that I wanted to replicate it on Agincourt. We had a long chat at Wicksteed, and several times since. My problem is that I do not have a lathe or other equipment for turning the metal parts for the pump system and heat exchanger blocks. Geoff very kindly offered to make these for me, and said he wants a ship to fire back at him at the next Mayhem event. O0
I sourced the thermistor heaters, servos and special fog fluid. Geoff said he would make the other essential parts that I did not have the equipment to reproduce from his detailed drawings and description. This week he contacted me to say he had built four barbettes with fully working pumps, reservoirs etc.
O.M.G When I visited him on Sunday he had produced four barbette inners, complete with all the essentials of the firing system. We fitted the servos plus the bosses to mount the stepper motors concentrically. Here are some photo’s.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-nhscKZZ/0/27869706/M/barbette-inner-2-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-nhscKZZ/A)
(L) Barbette assy. (R) Underside of barbette with stepper motor boss. (F) Inner frame with brass pump, servo, and fill tube.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-TNsQbmJ/0/8c72fc10/M/barbette-inner-1%20-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-TNsQbmJ/A)
(R) Barbette with f/glass hood, (F) Thermistor, heat exchange block and barrel inner
The servo pumps a small quantity of fog fluid from the base reservoir up to the heat exchanger, vaporises it, and expels it under pressure from the gun barrel inner. The pump, with two ball bearings acting as valves, lies just under the level of fog fluid in the base reservoir.
Geoff you are a real hero :-))
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What a gentleman 8) Geoff deserves at least one bacon roll on Sunday Morning at Wicksteed this year! It's such an elegant system.
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Su-flippin'-perb. :-))
That's the bar raised, I think. Carry on ... I'm agog.
Andy
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Main Superstructure
The construction method seems to work OK, The aft superstructure, as far it got in reply #400, is very strong yet only weighs 68 gm.
The main superstructure is larger and more intricate than the aft island, the principle construction feature being the circular conning citadel which I built first. This was formed around a 2 inch dia alloy tube former. Several thicknesses of 0.020” Plasticard to make up the profile. Next was the 4mm balsa lower platforms to support the 1.2mm ply vertical panels.
So far this has taken more time than the aft structure. Getting the build sequence right is vital, however, I had glued the sides to the base before realising I had not cut out the gun embrasures. Doh !!!
Photo is the first three decks, 2 x six inch guns and 4 x four inch guns, plus conning citadel.
Rough shaped so far, weight just 145 gm including guns.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-89tJFm3/0/b1a863fc/M/main-island-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-89tJFm3/A)
Several more decks to go above this, plus main tripod mast, and of course funnel (I look forward to the funnels!).
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I look forward to see these in progress.
You are making great progress Bob, the superstructure basis looks nice.
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Tight for space
Things are getting tricky. I cannot fix the two superstructure islands in place as I would be left with nowhere to work. Without the superstructure the conjoined hulls looks a bit like HMS Furious, with two thirds of a ‘flat top’ that I can use with a sheet of ply over as a temporary workbench.
Once I mount the superstructure on however . . .
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-wTjc2ww/0/f8218f5c/M/islands-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-wTjc2ww/A)
So, temporary pegs to position them, then remove and store. It feels like building an airship in the airing cupboard. The plan is to complete each island with its own tripod mast, funnel, and additional decks as separate builds, then remove them and start work on the barbette outers. After that will be C-3PO's Arduino turret bearing electronics, then marry them up to Geoff’s barbette gunfire innards. This will be the first ever T.A.R.G.E.T. bearing system, plus only the second example of Geoff's unique gunfire system.
Eventually I will get around to the deck planking, then Ron Dean’s semi-kit fittings list when that becomes available, but for now I must concentrate on the gunnery controls. Mostly all scratch building, and Wicksteed is coming up fast %%
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so bob, your making a seperate deck area yo turn it into a what if ship with a flight deck. an interesting concept!
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Just for you Klunk, temporary ply worktop (flight deck) with Dragon Rapide {-)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-2ctmbFn/0/25558d8b/M/flight-deck-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-2ctmbFn/A)
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Just a thought have a read of ‘Far Aft and Faintly’ by Mark Klimaszewski which was advertised in Model Boats magazine last year for a Lion/Princess Royal hybrid battlecruiser aircraft carrier project by the Dutch and used in WW2. A Fleetscale 1/128 scale hull, two 13.5inch gun turrets and a flight deck... just one of my future plans one day!!! ok2
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I think you should do it
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Anyway, happily sidetracked, brilliant work Bob :-))
I’ve been busy wiring up my Invincible and busy buying some PTC thermistors on Geoff’s advice. I think you know which will be the third model with Geoff’s patent firing gun system! %)
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But Adamant did not have any armament. (Chortle :} )
Do put up photos of your turret firing system chaps as it will be useful to see the variations in building styles and if you make any modifications/adaptions to Geoff's original design (Not that there need be, but smaller turrets may need a thought or two on making things fit.)
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But Adamant did not have any armament. (Chortle :} )
Do put up photos of your turret firing system chaps as it will be useful to see the variations in building styles and if you make any modifications/adaptions to Geoff's original design (Not that there need be, but smaller turrets may need a thought or two on making things fit.)
Will do, I’m still collecting/buying the various bits and pieces that Geoff recommends. Looking forward to trying it once everything arrives. :-))
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Bob,
Nice progress, don't forget to cut slots in the conning tower so the crew can see out!
Cheers
Geoff
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Geoff,
Certainly. There is a sighting hood to go on top, a bit like a submarine conning dome. Your gunnery system is generating even more interest. Nick want to replicate it on his HMS Invincible.
Not a huge amount of info on the two decks above what I have rough modelled so far, and aligning the tripod mast elements through them will prove interesting.
Bob K
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Bob,
I've given quite a lot of thought to tripod masts as I have two to make on Invincible. If they are made of brass tube then the legs could be cut at each deck level to take measurements with an inner brass tube inserted afterwards to make the whole thing rigid and keep alignment.
This would allow each deck level to be cut and measured accurately for the holes and then the whole thing assembled afterwards. A bit like a telescopic tube but with the outer level always being the same diameter.
The weight would be minimal but if of concern alloy tube could be used and glued or even plastic tube.
Cheers
Geoff
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Geoff,
An excellent suggestion. Mine will go through 2 or 3 lower superstructure decks that are already in place, but I was trying to figure out how to accurately go through the smaller decks above. For the lower decks I will pierce through with piano wire then open out to fit. To build upwards I will use thin ply to use the method you suggest.
PS: I am using dowel for the vertical members and Plastruct tubes for the angled ones. Least weight.
Thank you
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I keep forgetting that top weight isn't such a problem, it is over all weight you are watching Bob. I was thinking 'would brass tube be that heavy on a hull with over 20 kilos of ballast?' and then remembered the 0ver 20 kilos of ballast!
I will watch your development of the masts with great interest (well I am watching everything you do as such!)
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Iain, it seems strange that something this voluminous does not demand vast amounts of ballast. When the six SLA batteries go in I will be very close to the 29kg you all loaded aboard her at Wicksteed last year to take her to the waterline, but if necessary I can take her a little deeper draft. That is why I am going for four turrets firing, not all seven. That would take another three big batteries. Even a square metre of deck planking is significant.
I was in Mantua Models last week, which is close to where I live, and we weighed lengths of tube in plastic alloy and brass. I am using the largest standard Plastruct tube, which is the lightest of the three, but solid wood dowel was lighter than even alloy tube. A local model shop can sometimes be more convenient than buying online.
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How interesting! I know you didn't pug that much filler and Milliput into the hull when fitting the location tubes, nor did you use hefty slabs of wood for the bulkheads.
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The hull joining methodology did not help. 19 mm thick bulkheads each side of the join (the other four are only 9 mm). plus nine lengths of 1.6 mm wall thickness stainless steel joining tubes total almost 3 kg. Four big Buhler motors at a kilogram apiece.
Six large SLA batteries totalling 12 Kg. You are looking at twenty kilograms for that lot in total.
That leaves just 9 kg for everything else, including the 2.2 m f/glass hull. It adds up rapidly.
Sorry, not much progress lately. Family matters have limited my workshop hours recently.
To come: More work on the superstructure, plus laminating up the fixed barbette outers.
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Bob,
Would you be better in using lighter LiPo batteries?
More expensive but more flexibility weight wise. Additional weight was always a bugbear in the original ships.
Colin
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Thank you Colin, but all the batteries have to be 12V, and the ones powering the gun fire thermistors have an initial current of 13A. This drops rapidly to 2A as the thermistors heat up.
There are LiFePO4 batteries which are a third of the weight of SLA's but cost £199 for a 12V 12AH one.
Not sure if I want to spend mega £'s on batteries.
High discharge large NiMh batteries are also expensive but I do not feel comfortable ganging them in parallel for high initial current.
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Have you looked on Hobby King Uk website .
best place for batteries
John
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Bob,
I have also considered Lipo's for the gun thermistor units but you would need some "eletrickery" to avoid over discharging the Lipo's. With lead acid you can effectively keep going until they just run down but if you did this with Lipo's you would destroy them.
As a reminder dreadnoughts draft varied a couple of feet depending on how much coal they had on board as they invariably anticipated hours and hours of steaming (sometimes days) before any action commenced. Also the lower level of the armour belt should be about 4 feet below the normal water line to protect against underwater hits.
Also as you say cost comes into it but a mixture of battery types could be an elegant solution to keep costs reasonable.
Cheer
Geoff
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Geoff: I agree about LiPo's not being suitable for the gun fire thermistors, and could cause major problems. I will stick with SLA's for those (1 battery per gun), as you say they will be far more forgiving on cumulative discharge.
I may however consider using a 12V 16Ah LiFePO4 for the four Buhler motors. I have spoken with TracerPower and they claim these can operate at much better ranges of discharge than SLA's and the 16Ah one should run two hours with ease as the motors are not being run full speed continuously. However, it costs £224 c/w power leads case and special charger. They have a built-in charge indicator.
Costly, but could save 3 kg over twin 9 Ah SLA's.
In fact I can put the 1.9 Kg LiFePO4 (4 motors) alongside a 1.7 Kg 5Ah SLA (gun fire) battery.
https://www.tracerpower.com/tracer-12v-16ah-lifepo4-battery.html (https://www.tracerpower.com/tracer-12v-16ah-lifepo4-battery.html)
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Is a 16ah Lipo equal to two 9ah lead acids though? You should not normally discharge a lead acid below 50% of its nominal capacity as a rule of thumb but I believe that a LiPo can be more deeply discharged than a lead acid so you might only need say 10-12ah of Lipo to get the same performance. No doubt somebody will be able to confirm that or otherwise.
Something else that might be worth checking is whether two smaller LiPos, each running two motors would be cheaper than one big one. The LiPo chargers (not special ones) often have more than one output so they could be charged simultaneously.
You can also get 10ah tagged NiMH D size cells now which would would be a lot cheaper than your £224 LiPo, last longer and probably still save significant weight over the SLAs. You would need two 10 cell packs of course. I swapped out the 4 lead acid Cyclons in my Fishery cruiser for NiMh replacements and saved both space and weight for the same performance.
I can't remember, but have you tried out a Buhler motor with a prop on the end in water to see what the current draw is at various voltages?
It's certainly worth checking out the various possibilities.
Colin
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Maybe you could use the LiPo option for the gunfire side of your set up. They are designed primarily for high current work and should easily handle the 12amp initial surge current incurred by your firing system. I assume the firing system is only drawing current while in a live and firing sequence? If that is the case, then you will have minutes while the system is 'hot' and minutes when it is not. This should be within the capability of decent quality LiPo packs. You just need to check the C rating of the cells first.
As far as over discharging the cells, you can always fit a LiPo alarm into the balance lead, or in the main circuit, depending on type. This will give an audible alarm when you are approaching a flat battery situation.
Although I am currently avoiding a LiPo option for my own proper firing pyros, not too keen on direct shorts to blow fuse wire! I know that is what fuse wire is for, it's just LiPos still make me nervous......
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I said "LiFePO4", not "LiPo". a huge difference. Lithium Iron Phosphate.
Guaranteed for 1,400+ cycles. Discharge cut-off voltage: 10V.
This battery type was mentioned in a much earlier Post from Across the Pond as "SLA Replacements" but at a third of the weight. At that time I could not find them available over here.
The disadvantage is the very much higher price.
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Sorry, didn't realise the difference. Expensive though, as you say.
Colin
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The more I think about, the most I am leaning towards a LiFePO4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate) battery for the main propulsion.
The 3 kg weight saving could make all the difference.
Instead of two 9 Ah SLA's, (one each side of the central tube) I can fit the new 1.9 kg battery one side of the centre, and one of the 5 Ah gun fire SLA's (at 1.7 kg) the other side. Almost balances.
This also brings the rear half to within 2 kg of the front half. Better weight distribution.
Additionally this gives me almost 3 kg in hand for the remainder of the build, so I can keep it to waterline.
£224 is a lot of money for a battery though, but it may be the best option.
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It's OK Bob :-))....
Just think of it a message from the War Office confirming a request from the Admirals [as approved by Whitehall] for a minor technical propulsion revision %)
Derek
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Bob, I think I'd wait until Agincourt is afloat and sailing before deciding on a final battery decision as you may be surprised in a number of ways.
Cheers
Geoff
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bobk
found this also do an 18amp
http://www.allbatteries.co.uk/lithium-iron-phosphate-battery-lifepo4/12v/16ah.html (http://www.allbatteries.co.uk/lithium-iron-phosphate-battery-lifepo4/12v/16ah.html)
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Thanks Pete. That looks interesting. I will check it out.
Geoff: At the moment as I am building each half I am regularly checking them on my scales.
I am also keeping a detail spreadsheet itemising the known weights of items to be added to each half.
I know the final displacement as my hull was loaded with lead at Wicksteed '17, 29kg took it to the waterline.
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I said "LiFePO4", not "LiPo". a huge difference. Lithium Iron Phosphate.
Guaranteed for 1,400+ cycles. Discharge cut-off voltage: 10V.
This battery type was mentioned in a much earlier Post from Across the Pond as "SLA Replacements" but at a third of the weight. At that time I could not find them available over here.
The disadvantage is the very much higher price.
I was just broaching the subject of LiPos having the grunt to work your firing gun system. If they were an option, that would free up volume, displacement and pound notes for other jobs! I would still rely on the big gel cells for main drive, you won't be pulling big amps with those motors and you would benefit from their weight.
Over to you and Geoff on that one..
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Really sorry but been reading this build for ages and have to ask. "Thermistor units"? A thermistor is usually just a small temp sensor -it doesn't draw much if any current (it's pretty much a small resistor), couple of magnitudes less than what you're talking about anyway. I see references made to the system in other boats and I appreciate it's part of a bigger system? Could you provide a link or description for a proletarian please? Sorry if it's been asked before.
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Hi RST: A thermistor is a type of resistor whose resistance is dependent on temperature, in this case a self-regulating heating element. The heating element is used to heat up a small amount of Fog Fluid, boiling off the water to produce a puff of fluid smoke from the gun barrel. It draws a lot of current when cold, but much less when it reaches its optimum 220 degrees.
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There are different types and sizes of thermistors but fundamentally two different types:
1) NTC (Negative temperature coefficient) as they are heated the internal resistance reduces - these are used in many applications but the obvious is a car temperature sender unit. As the engine warms up the temperature increases and it allows a voltage to flow which moves the voltmeter (temperature gauge)on your dashboard.
2) PTC (positive temperature coefficient) these are exactly the opposite as a voltage/current flows through them their resistance increases which in turn produces heat. These can frequently be used to keep coffee warm on a hot plate and are used in industry.
Specifically these are designed to have certain characteristics such they can only reach a certain temperature and are self regulating so can be used as heating units in certain applications.
The advantage is that they are self regulating so don't need any feedback circuits to maintain a constant temperature. PTC's are designed for multiple applications and can have maximum temperature settings from 60 degrees up to 250 or in some cases 400 degrees!
Sizes range from a few mm to 60mm x 25mm x 5mm.
If I may, have a look at another thread for Iron Duke on this site under warships R&D. Start at the end of the thread and work backwards and it shows the development process of this system and how it came about in more detail together with plans and pictures. Iron Duke has now fired well over 5,000 shots and works consistently. I typically get 300 to 350 shots in a session and because its totally no pyrotechnic can be used anywhere.
Below is a link address for some I have on order.
Hope this is of interest
Cheers
Geoff
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00M85KTO2/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
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Sorry, wrong link! I'm experimenting with these as well!
Correct link below!
Cheers
Geoff
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01N7SSYH5/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
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Excellent description Geoff.
Bilge keels?
Something else I need to consider before the superstructure is permanently fitted. Bilge Keels.
Was HMS Agincourt fitted with them? My 3 sheets of plans only show the side view down to the waterline.
The prototype model does not appear to have them, but several illustrations do, in various forms.
Where they go (if fitted) is fairly straightforward, on the curve between the vertical and horizontal hull planes.
If I fit them I should do so now, whilst the hull can be placed at an angle or upside down.
Maybe three thicknesses with supporting pins through the centre plane, and slightly curved.
What do think? Fit them, or not?
With the shape and size of the hull it may not make additional effect to stability.
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This is an interesting dilemma Bob........as you note, certain text suggests that 'Bilge Keels' were not fitted .......[due to the Dock size or limitations >:-o ., ........I have difficulty in understanding the logical basis with these written words ]
It is clear, that the Battleship Class builds after the first Dreadnaught incorporated 'bilge keels' in their hull design
One could type 10 pages on the facts, omitted or un-scribed notation....... however ...
I would be inclined to consider the copy the bilge keel design [net effective length x height x profile etc] as installed to the following vessels such as the Iron Duke
Derek
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Bob,
Consulting "British Battleships of World War 1" by R A Burt, on pages 272-273, shows inboard profile sections of Angincourt, circa 1918. Clearly shown are bilge keels running from frames 111 to 243. I suspect they actually extended beyond these noted frames however. On American ships, bilge keels ran parallel to the keel, so measuring with a flexible rule at the widest point will allow an easy transfer of the bilge keel lines for the full extent of their run as a constant measure from the keel centerline.
I will be happy to scan and send you copies of the pages, if you like.
Jonathan
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Jonathan (Akira); Looking in that book, you are correct. It clearly shows bilge keels in various of the section views.
That kind of settles it. Bilge keels need to be fitted. Such keels from that era appear to be markedly curved, so I will try to replicate that. Another challenge on my "to do" list !
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Bob,
Using the technique I described, I beleive that if you were to plot out the bilge keel, measured as a constant distance from the keel's centerline, the bilge keel will APPEAR to be significantly curved when viewed in profile, but is in reality a straight line. I hope this makes sense. perhaps someone else can explain it better.
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Bob, as you are probably aware, bilge keels were usually fitted on the turn of the bilge and their size was dictated by not protruding below the bottom of the ship or beyond the side of the hull so they would not normally be damaged if the ship touched the bottom or was alongside a vertical dock. This line was usually curved in appearance.
Probably the best way to experiment would be to tape a thin picece of stripwood along the turn of the bilge and see what sort of natural curve it takes up. It will probably look right then.
In any event, who is to prove you wrong?!
Colin
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The same guy who will be counting the rivets :D :D
Ned
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Akira: I know exactly what you mean. It will produce a curve on the material, even though following a projected straight line.
Colin: Having fitted these before on other ships, I know they must be contained within the volume of the sectional hull curve. ie: not protrude beyond the side of the hull, nor beneath it. This in itself goes a long way to define its position and shape.
Ned: Any rivets counters are welcome to build one better themselves. (Tee hee !)
Definitive information prior to the RN conversion are quite limited, which gives me scope to make reasonable approximation where exact info is lacking. Plans and most photos are of the converted ship as operated by the Royal Navy.
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Hi Bob
Great that you’re going for it! I would recommend Geoff’ method of a 90 degree angle strip of brass so you can screw it into the hull- I wish I had done it on my Invincible in this method as I think mine might be a little fragile if I’m a little rough with her docking!
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Hi Nick. Did I miss something here? Been searching on Mayhem for that method. Not sure how you "force" a brass angle into the curve needed.
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No it’s on his Invincible build. Geoff showed me his model at Warwick last year with the brass bilge keels.
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If you use "L" shaped brass there is actually very little force required to bend it into shape as the bilge line is a natural curve well within the ability to bend the brass. Its a bit like putting a long plank on the bilge as it naturally conforms to the shape of the hull.
I drilled small holes and used small screws to fix the brass bilge keel - final fixing was done with Araldite and the screws. Sometimes a small metal plate on the inside of the hull at each end can give a very firm attachment point.
It may sound awkward but in practice its really easy. Start in the middle and the it just follows the natural curve. Once fitted I then fill the angle with car body filler and you have a nice triangular shape.
Yes, definitely fir bilge keels as I'm not aware of a single battleship of that era that didn't have them as it both strengthened the hull at a key point and from a modelling perspective gives you something to grip!
Bob, if you do this I'd join the two hull halves together but with a small spacer to keep the bilge line true then cut it in half with a hacksaw once dry.
Cheers
Geoff
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Thank you Geoff. I have ordered some thin brass angle, and will definitely give that a go. 10 x 10 x 1 mm thick.
It does seem a "stretch" to bend though.
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Bob,
You can always anneal it first - just heat it with a gas blowlamp until it glows and work you way along. It makes it much easier to bend but on ID and Invincible I was able to cold bend it as the curve is very gentle.
I read somewhere that the distance from the keel line is the same all the way along - I'm not quite convinced though - basically it follows the water flow round the hull hence the shape.
Cheers
Geoff
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Credits
Well, I have only been building model boats for less than seven years, but I am indebted to those whose experience and welcome advice have lifted my often over-ambitious projects towards a successful conclusion I might not have reached on my own. Joining Mayhem has made a big difference, and the many friends I have met at events. A big thank you to all.
Bilge Keels
Thank you Geoff for your tips on building bilge keels. Despite the large apparent curve when viewed from the side the 10 x 10 x 1 brass angle did not have to bend much at all to produce that curve. It extends 450 mm each side of the centre join, as per several line drawings of the hull.
In practice it naturally followed the contour contained between the planes of the hull sides and flat keel, with the keel plate keeping a right angle to the hull surface. Fitting them with the hulls joined as suggested, then sawing on the join line, will keep the lines looking nicely continuous. Not sure if I need to extend the depth a tad. I will decide later. The photo is almost edge-on to the bilge keel plate. Some Isopon filler should smooth the angle contours later.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-82b4b2s/0/ca601302/M/bilge-keel-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-82b4b2s/A)
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I suspect that'll more than do. Very nice!
Andy
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Its definitely an important step in the whole project. It went right and you can put the experience behind you.
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Many thanks to C-3PO. His design for the T.A.R.G.E.T. bearing control is now greatly advanced.
See http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,56800.msg634468/topicseen.html#msg634468 (http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,56800.msg634468/topicseen.html#msg634468)
I am currently working on the fixed barbette outers which will incorporate the mounting of the stepper motors, and where applicable gun fire modules.
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Barbette Outers
I bought three sheets of 600 x 600 “twenty thou” (0.5 mm) Plasticard to laminate up the fixed barbettes. To mark it up I had to wait until everyone was out then set up my pasting table in the lounge.
However, I was not satisfied with the result of laminating 80mm or 40mm strips using EMA Plastic Weld. The resultant tubes, after four layers applied, were still very squishy and I could hear the adhesive cracking when I lightly pressed them. Not man enough for the job. I do have a 1m length of thin-wall steel tube of the right diameter, but would prefer plastic for various reasons.
So, abandoning the laminating I have ordered a 910mm length of 83 dia ABS tubing from EMA Model Supplies which I intend to cut into lengths. A small amount of laminating will be needed but now I will be starting off with rigid tube that can support the gun fire and TARGET components with reasonable concentricity.
The mounting of both the gun fire modules, and stepper motors, require more precision, and I have to fit wiring in the space between the tubes.
Waiting for the tube to arrive.
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Hi Bob
I use something similar too for barbettes because of the same reason- the laminating of plastic into a circle is weak and will eventually break. Something solid like ABS or Acrylic Perspex is perfect as it’s almost perfectly circular and cuts into lengths with relative ease. I’ve used it on both Dreadnought and Invincible for barbettes and on my Dad’s Adamant as the funnel. No point struggling especially when you’ve got seven to make!
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My experiences with laminating thin layers is that it warps and can also get slumps where the plastic weld is concentrated. I chose to do my funnels as a turning or machined acrylic for that reason. I look forward to your efforts and wish you a seamless and undetectable tidy up of the lounge post model making period :}
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The ABS precision tubing has arrived so I can make a start on the fixed outers for the barbettes. It is 2.4mm smaller diameter than the thin wall steel tubing so will need some exterior laminating to get it to fit the deck holes.
It is nicely very rigid.
By necessity there needs to be a gap between the barbette outer and the rotating inner module to allow wiring due to the stepper motor being underneath on the centreline. I intend using thin brass strip for the thermistor wiring, plus a servo lead and thin LED wires.
Thermal Lagging
I have hit a slight snag. I need some heat resistant fabric to clad the gun fire thermistors in to prevent heat damaging the turret interiors. Going way back you could get plumbers heat mats in a woven material that was quite thin and ideal for the job. Now these all seem about 8 mm thick and barely bendable. Maybe post-asbestos modern equivalents? Useless.
Anyone got some thin “vintage” plumbers mat that I can wrap the small thermistor blocks in to withstand 220 ‘C, or something similar?
Maybe some of our steam engine enthusiasts can suggest some suitable lagging material?
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Perhaps something like this (http://fireplug.co.uk/ceramic-fibre-paper---3-mm-thermal-and-electrical-insulation-4509-p.asp) will suit your needs? I used this to lag the boiler of my steam launch under the wood cladding.
Greg
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Or https://www.camdenmin.co.uk/collections/kayowool-ceramic-fibre-insulation-material
Tony :-))
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Bob...the second option...Kayowool would offer a few advantages and similar costing
1. it is able to be soaked in water then to compress to take a permanent shape and dry out thus maintaining the profile [obviously limits apply]
2. has a markedly higher thermal resistance
3. can be wrapped in a Alfoil sheet to improve strength
So whilst real wool for an Oz sheep's back is best :-))......not so for this application as the ...Kayowool is synthetic %)
Derek
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Bob,
I just went to B&Q and got a cheap plumbers matt (Circa £6). Yes its a little stiff but its only about 1/16" thick and can be readily cut and folded and can take temperatures up to 400 C. To minimise the volume of the primary insulation I wrap it in very thin copper wire thread, as a binding, so I can pull it all tight. The secondary insulation is just loft insulation which is stuffed in every orifice I can fill. This is an advantage with turrets where the roof comes off.
I'll Google the other items mentioned as some of it looks interesting.
Cheers
Geoff
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Thank you Geoff. I am trying to follow your methodology as closely as possible. I will drive over to B&Q to have a look. Incidentally I just cut open the thick Rothernberger mat and it appears to contain "Ecomab" paper felt-like infill, maybe similar to the Kayowool material mentioned previously.
Off to B&Q . . .
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I used a 2mm version of Kayo round the boiler in my torpedo boat before cladding with 0.5mm ply. tacked it to the brass with the water based glue you use for the rope door seal on log burners.
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Barbette Outers
The ABS rigid tubing is really nice, although 2.4mm smaller diameter than I had planned for. After a lot of thought, rather than laminating the above deck portion I would instead use 6mm strips of ABS to line the deck holes with, Araldited in. I now have a good slide fit for the tubes. I have cut the tube into 80mm and 40mm lengths, to suit barbettes with gun fire modules and those without. The super-firing turrets are just mounted higher.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-v4Gnpqb/0/7e7fd72b/M/barbette-outers-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-v4Gnpqb/A)
Turrets
I cannot mount the stepper motors just yet, so I have moved on to the turrets. Thank you Geoff, I tried B&Q and they had some acceptably thin soldering heat mats. Carefully cutting the mat to shape I “lagged” the thermistors, securing with thin brass wire. Gently bending the copper gun barrel inners to a realistic angle I lagged the barrels with cotton yacht rigging, to be sealed with high temperature adhesive. Barrel outers will be fabricated from aluminium tube. One barrel will carry the smoke outlet, the other an LED.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-W22SsrS/0/f9c330d4/M/thermistor-lagging-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-W22SsrS/A)
Wiring
Tricky this: Due to the stepper motor being underneath the gun fire module, on its centreline, all wiring has to pass between the module outer wall and the fixed barbette. Not a lot of room for the thermistors wires, servo lead and LED wires.
More on this later, after I have completed the turret hoods and bases.
T.A.R.G.E.T.
We are gradually approaching the stage where Geoff's gun fire system is to be married up to C-3PO's TARGET gun director control system. Please keep an eye on that thread too as his development work is coming along superbly. HMS Agincourt will be the first ship to be equipped with this system, and the Mayhem event at Wicsteed is approaching too fast.
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,56800.msg635813/topicseen.html#msg635813 (http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,56800.msg635813/topicseen.html#msg635813)
In the words of Willy Wonka "So much time. So little to do. Reverse that !"
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Not a lot to report, just spending several day grinding and filing a surplus 4mm from the bottoms of seven turrets. This fibreglass is good quality, blunts files and is almost 6 mm thick in places. Anyway, I have to press on as I can't start the turret bases until it's finished.
When this bit is done I can make the gun apertures, then figure how to mount the lagged thermistor assemblies with lagged barrels. Beside each working gun assembly will be a dummy gun with ultra bright wide angle LED.
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Turrets
Finally finished fettling the turret bases. Fibreglass powder everywhere, but they are now the correct profile underneath. Now the start on the turret floors. 2mm ply, to be flush with turret base and just inset into the barbette ‘round’. This meant making a template, then getting out the trusty vibrosaw. Only problem is where do I put it in this cramped space? In the end I got out the Workmate, put a ply sheet over it, and used that.
Filed edges of ply to individually fit turret inner profiles, slight variances due to fibreglass thickness. Instead of trying to fit numerous small sections of ply inside I decided to use a fillet of Milliput as a support ledge, then lightly pressed the cut ply shapes into it until flush.
The thermistor assemblies will be a close fit inside.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-XLgRWsw/0/5a4c8145/M/turret-bases-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-XLgRWsw/A)
The circular sections will fit onto the barbettes. Next step will be to drill the gun barrel holes. It is intended that a single screw will retain the hood for access, after sliding the hood over the barrels.
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I'm not sold on fibreglass for smaller items, and not really for hulls either, but it looks like you have got the better of those turrets!
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At four and a half inches long they are almost like a small boat in their own right. %%
Fourteen barrel holes drilled, a little green putty on cut edges for minor blemishes, and I am nearly ready to fit thermistor assemblies alloy tube guns and LED's.
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Good show! This is getting exciting Bob :-))
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Turrets
Apologies for the update delay, this stage took a very long time. After providing an internal lip for the 2mm ply bases I began on the ply internal structures of the turrets.
It was necessary to make the turret bases in two sections as the turret rears are slightly higher than the circular part. Quite a bit of fettling was needed to get the joined base sections to lie flush with the lower turret profiles.
Next bit was fiddly in the extreme. I used 5mm ply as vertical support structures, to mount the thermistor assembly one side, and the LED barrel and plumbing the other. An interesting profile based on many Vernier depth gauge readings, plus a step for the two part base. The fibreglass turrets were each drilled for an M3 stainless CSK screw.
I next fitted M3 stainless nutserts into the top of each divider. All this virtually blind inside the structure.
At final fit the alloy tubes will be affixed to the lagged barrels using high temp adhesive.
Having the internal structures built it then remained to mount the thermistor assembly inside each, together with the alloy tubes for the barrels. The plan is to remove the M3 screw, raise the rear of the turret and slide it off the barrels. Positioning the thermistor assembly is critical as space is extremely tight. My 12 inch turrets are a fair bit smaller than Iron Duke’s 13.5 inch.
The fog fluid supply tube goes through the ply, some hot mat padding under the rear of the thermistor assembly, then wire it into position.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-2wfjJns/0/7659202e/M/thermistor-mounting-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-2wfjJns/A)
The above should give an idea of the tightness of fit and accuracy needed for ply mounting support. The turret “shell” just slides over the barrel(s) and is clamped down with the M3 CSK screw. Next job will be to thread the thermistor wires so they can exit between the fixed barbette and rotating inner, Very little clearance here for wiring either.
I plan on using thin brass strips down the rotating turret inner, plus thin wires for the LED. The pump servo cable also has to route between the tubes. It will be challenging.
The non-firing turrets will be a lot easier, having only alloy barrels and a single LED.
This is all taking time, and Wicksteed is approaching far too fast. :((
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I make it about seven weeks %%
Its good to get awkward things out of the way sooner.
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Kind words always appreciated Iain. O0
Only seven turrets too ... Tee hee !
Seriously, the ship is not even painted yet, no batteries, a lot of superstructure still to build, and the TARGET electronics.
I am indebted to both Geoff and C-3PO and so wanted to have their systems at least working by Wicksteed.
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Bob,
Looking good. As a reminder the holes in the turret should be elongated to allow for the guns to elevate. On a practical basis this will also allow you more clearance when sliding the turret over the guns.
Cheers
Geoff
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Many thank Geoff. Much appreciated. Boy, it is a tight fit for 12 inch turrets rather than your 13.5 inch.
I am trying not to do full "U" slots for the gun barrels, but realise that the holes will need to have sufficient vertical clearance to allow the turret hood assemblies to slide over.
When I have the first one operational I will try to post a photo of the gun fire smoke !
The TARGET gun bearing control is being worked on by C-3PO, but that is a brand new development. Coming along well from what he has shown me. If I don't have time to complete that I aim to at least have the guns firing, albeit with turrets pointed broadsides.
I must at least do the spray painting in the time remaining, and get all the batteries on board.
Fingers crossed :-))
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Keep going Bob, can't wait to see it in only a few weeks (no pressure then) :-))
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TARGET on TARGET
Even if it's just in time for Wicksteed
C-3PO
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C-3PO. I am very grateful for the wonderful development work you are doing on the TARGET system. It just seems so much to get working with all the software systems to write and debug.
Separate electronics modules for each turret, each with its own Arduino coding, plus fire control director master and slave units, then the electronic compass (almost like a GPS). Oh yes, then there are the audio units too - from your diagram. I reckon about 14 Arduino units including the inter-hull communications units.
From my limited programming experience (yonks ago) It still sounds a heck of a mountain to climb.
I shall press here and aim to have something sailable for Wicksteed, and hopefully operational too O0
Many thanks again :-))
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Turrets
Slow steady progress on the four firing turrets. The thermistor assemblies are now mounted, secured with brass wire. Next is the wiring for them, bearing in mind they can draw up to 13A on start-up and space is limited between inner and outer tubes. I used 0.25 inch x 0.016 brass strip epoxied onto the cylinder wall. This allowed connection to the thermistor wires using standard spade receptacles. Thicker wire will be connected onto the strips underneath for connection to the control relay.
The tube supplies fog fluid from the barbette reservoir to the thermistor via servo operated pump.
The alloy spigot is to fill / drain the fluid with turret hood removed.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-XgfVLph/0/72324768/M/thermistor-wiring-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-XgfVLph/A)
The servo cable exits down the outside of this cylinder, epoxied in, plus two cores of servo wire will be similarly fixed on this side for the LED’s. Wiring is roughly equal spacing around the cylinder.
Next task will be mounting the dummy barrels for the LED’s. The overall visual effect is a mass of smoke with a bright yellow flash, although only one barrel per turret blast smoke. The other has an ultra bright wide angle LED at its end. This should be relatively straightforward compared with the above.
Special battery
As discussed on previous posts weight has become a critical factor, necessitating a very special main propulsion battery to keep the overall displacement from going way over the 29Kg limit.
So I have bitten the bullet and bought a 12V 14Ah LiFePO4 battery, Compared to an SLA it weighs in at just 1.9Kg instead of over 5Kg for a similar sized SLA. Darned expensive, but it has become necessary. In addition to this battery will be four 12V 5Ah batteries for the gun-fire, one per turret, plus two batteries for all the electronics. That's eight batteries in all, that otherwise could have totalled around 15Kg.
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Bob,
Its all looking good and yes the wiring is a challenge if not on the centreline, hence my ones have the central tube but of course this does not suit your use of the stepper motors!
All good fun
Cheers
Geoff
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Thank you Geoff, much appreciated.
This kind of construction is not exactly my forte, which makes me admire your barbette construction even more.
However, it is getting there. :-))
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Smoking Hot
Not fitted the RH barrels yet, but was tempted to see how the LH barrel worked in action.
60ml of fug fluid pipetted into one barbette module, and a 12VDC supply connected to the brass strips under the module.
Took just a minute and a half to get the thermistor hot.
Not having the electronics for firing it yet I replicated this with a servo tester and 4.8V battery.
It moves the internal pump servo arm just using the tester knob.
My wife kindly took a photo whilst I turned the knob.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-xbhDHXD/0/16a26d09/M/first-gunfire-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-xbhDHXD/A)
Wow !! Is that smoking hot – or what ?
Thank you Geoff. Yippee. It works. A major build milestone achieved.
After four shots my workshop has a smoke screen.
OK, fun part over. Back to fitting out the dummy barrels and LED’s.
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Awesome! :-))
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Wicked nice!
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Bob,
Thank you for posting the pictures and I'm just as pleased as you are that it all worked fine! Its nice to know at some point in time we can shoot at each other!
All we want now are more battleships with firing guns and we can stage a battle.
As a reminder don't forget to seal the end of the barrel with high temperature silicon so any drips don't run back into the barrel and soak the insulation.
I'm very pleased for you
Cheers
Geoff
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Geoff. Thank you. Please do not think I was "surprised". I knew it would work, just like your Iron Duke.
I am just pleased that my implementation hadn't messed up. SO good to see it work though. Exciting :-))
I was thinking of you yesterday. Our family were at Portsmouth making the most of our season tickets. We saw the actual battle ensign of Iron Duke flown at Jutland. As you know my wife's Grandfather served in her at that time.
Whatever, I am going to Wicksteed, and although Agincourt will be far from completed the guns will be firing.
I need to finish the turrets then think about painting her, and getting the full set of batteries.
Hopefully more will consider building real gunfire systems. I am following your Invincible with interest.
PS: Yes, the barrels are sealed with high temp adhesive over the lagging.
Thank you so much for all your help :-))
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Cheers, Bob,
I have also seen the Jutland exhibition and it was really quite good. I was with a friend and we were wondering if we could sneak out the HMS Canada model past the security guards. It may have been tricky at about 14 feet!
If you Google that model it recently underwent a complete restoration and there are pictures of before and after - quite a difference.
Cheers
Geoff
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Geoff,
Do not bother with the HMS Canada model, however awesome it looked. The guns don't work {-)
This is now what now defines a Dreadnaught battleship model.
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Indeed, there are only two types of battleship models, those with guns that fire and those that are targets!!! :-) :-) :-)
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I am so pleased that your efforts on this have paid off Bob. The smoke ejection looks very effective.
Onwards and upwards :-))
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Firing Turrets
That is the four firing turrets done. The RH (LED) barrels proved interesting as the mountings were entirely inside the turrets. Started off with Plasticence then recreated the shapes in wood, fixing into the ply structure and positioning the barrel holes.
Worked out OK, with a bit of fiddling. Ultra bright wide angle LED’s fitted in the barrel ends, with wires through. All wiring has to be routed down the outside of the barbette inners. Will be glue-tacked, then sealed in place with 48mm Gorilla Tape.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-JBSVpTz/0/3ea11bbc/M/4-turrets-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-JBSVpTz/A)
Next job will be the three non-firing turrets, which should be easier as it will be just mounting the alloy barrel assemblies into a shaped wood inner core. These will only have LED wiring passing into the hull.
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I can't wait to see the full set :-)) They look good.
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Thank Iain. I do like them O0
Currently working on the three non-firing turrets. Hit a small snag.
The actual turrets will be fairly straightforward, just a central rib of wood for the hood fixing, and a transverse wood block for mounting the barrels. Underneath will be a short tube of 75mm acrylic capped at each end with 1.5mm styrene flanged caps.
What I needed was some flanged bosses with grub screws to mount the bracket-supported stepper motors.
These have 5mm shafts. Ordered from two suppliers, but both appear far-East with a delivery up to early June. I may have to improvise something else if they will not arrive before Wicksteed. {:-{
No lathe. So thinking cap on. Suggestions?
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Bob,
Post a picture of what you actually need and we may be able to figure something out.
Cheers
Geoff
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Geoff,
Something similar to what you made for the four firing turrets. ie:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-8MLPwzh/0/d35398b6/Th/turret-boss-Th.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-8MLPwzh/A)
Does anyone in UK make them? 6 to 8 weeks delivery for an ex stock item seems silly.
5mm motor shaft with two flats, hence two grub screws. I could maybe use a 10mm shaft with 5mm hole & screws, to expoxy into wood turret base cylinder, or even a brass plate with suitable cutout that could be glued to base cylinder.
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Bob,
So another three identical ones would work, yes?
Geoff
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Geoff: Eh, yes. But you have done so much to help already I would not want take up more of your precious time that should be spent on Invincible.
I should have four firing turrets for Wicksteed, and hope to have them auto-training.
All seven training would be Wick-ed {-)
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Bob,
No problem and I can easily make up another three for you.
I'll let you know when they are done.
Cheers
Geoff
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Greatly appreciated Geoff. Thank you.
2 months delivery from far East is a pain, especially at this time.
Non Firing Turrets
The upper turret structures of the three non firing turrets were relatively straightforward after the firing turrets. Two shaped blocks of wood in a T. Turret hoods on, then drilling through for the barrel assemblies. I am going to have LED’s in both barrels on these, so only two wires exiting the hood assemblies.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-Hn7TRnN/0/c2374675/M/non-firing-turrets-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-Hn7TRnN/A)
Next stage will be to cut 30mm slices from a 76mm acrylic tube, capping top and bottom with flanged ends made from 0.5 and 1.5mm Plasticard.
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Non Firing Turrets
As per my last post, 76 mm acrylic cylinders cut 30 mm deep. Flanged end caps of 0.5 and 1.5 mm Plastruct sheet cut to size. Centres of circles found by old draughting technique of drawing two chords and connecting their ends with intersecting lines.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-DQkbq4v/0/f32a42bf/L/barbette-inner-shells-L.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-DQkbq4v/A)
Hole to go through cylinder near inner edge for 8 mm Plastruct tube. This will take the LED wiring through the inner barbettes to the TARGET control box. Only other thing to do is fit M3 nutserts in ply spine to retain turret hood.
Bases of all seven turrets are now ready to mount flanged bosses for stepper motors.
Next job is to create some light alloy plates to mount the steppers to the fixed outer barbette tubes.
Good progress I believe.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Timewise I need to start painting the ship, although quite a bit of external detailing still to do.
Should I now build the Admirals Walk at the stern, or leave that till after Wicksteed?
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Good question, stern walks can be notoriously fragile. On ID I drilled holes in the hull at strategic points and inserted 1mm rod super glued in then soft soldered the bottom rail 1.5mm which gave me the base outline. The rest of the structure was built up spot soldering and this gives a surprisingly strong structure which looks light.
Good luck, its always a fun part.
Cheers
Geoff
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Thanks Geoff. They do appear fragile, especially overhanging the stern.
I will try it as you suggest. Probably better to build it in before spraying the hull. :-))
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I'd spray the hull first as you are only drilling small holes which won't impact the hull finish, touch up anything with a small brush!
Cheers
Geoff
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When you start talking about things like Stern walks Bob, we know you are flying along. The turrets are coming together very well. Geoff's assistance in making the collars is a prime example of the generosity of friendship on this forum :-)) 8)
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I totally agree Iain. I am indebted for all the kind help given, and I hear C-3PO is making excellent progress on the Arduino comms.
Thinking about painting has me considering all sorts of things, like ordering the Slaters raised letters (not vinyl) for ships name on the stern.
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I used these for HMS Ready. They look pretty good and you only need two of each letter with no repetitions. Once applied, you could gently sand them to flatten them out a bit if needed?
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Bob,
If you hunt about you can get a sheet of brass photo etched letters in all sorts of sizes. I've used these on a number of models including Iron Duke. If they are on a name plate fixing them is easy as you paint the name plate in gloss varnish and whilst still wet drop the letters on. Because the varnish is wet you can align them perfectly. Once dry another coat of gloss varnish further fixes them and protects the brass finish. It all looks very neat!
Cheers
Geoff
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Geoff,
Excellent idea ! I have just ordered a sheet of 5mm PE letters from The Model Dockyard.
Not entirely sure what letter style was used. I was originally trying to replicate the name from the prototype model, but I think the PE should look more elegant, and I can apply them after painting.
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Painting
Preliminary painting is underway, being conscious of how fast Wicksteed is coming up.
Another good clean of the surfaces, and a scrub with a light scouring pad. Some minor blemishes tidied up. I am bound to find more later. Incredible how much masking up is required, undoubtedly the most masking I have ever used.
Nice weather so I used the Workbench in the garden, suitably covered. Two coats of grey, several hours apart. Halfords rattle-can grey primer is an ideal grey for this ship, as is the red primer for anti-foul.
As usual I found some blemishes afterwards, dealt with them and re-sprayed over.
Superstructure, still incomplete, a coat of sanding sealer before spraying. The seven turrets were a separate operation, after masking the barbette inners and gun muzzles.
After two days a ton more masking close to the waterline, with strips of bin liner to cover the grey areas. The usual intricate masking of props, shafts and rudder shaft.
After 3 cans of grey I then applied two cans of red. When fully dry I will carefully brush-apply the black line between the two colours.
Now in my experience masking comes in two types. Ones that don’t stick properly and allow under-bleed, and the other types that stick so well they lift the paint – Even after 48 hours. Well, the masking tape from Halfords achieved both !!!!
Not too bad, just some minor touch ups required. Finally I could remove the acres of masking from the decks, props, etc.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-dkWzcZX/0/02c49bac/L/hull-painting-L.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-dkWzcZX/A)
Hand brushing the wide black waterline will be challenging on a hull this size.
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Such an impressive model.
One tip I heard, but have never the chance to try - when spraying, for example the hull, having masked off the grey, but before spraying the red, give the join line a quick coat gray. This then seals the masking tape prior to laying down the red. Don't know if it actually works, though.
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For masking I use 3M fine line blue masking tape like they use on cars as it comes in various sizes and easily sourced from ebay, painted 3 models using this tape so far and not had any issues with paint bleed or the tape pulling off the paint.
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I used the tip Steve mentions for the destroyer and it worked a dream. It worked better than my cack handed hand painting of the full red! I still managed to get hints of it above the boot topping >>:-( It doesn't show much which is good.
Your paintwork looks great Bob. Good luck with the boot topping. I cannot think of any easy tips for hand painting lines without masking except lots and lots of practice.
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I must have tried just about every type of masking tape going, none with total success.
They either bleed paint under, or pull fully dried paint off, or both.
As to the black bootstrap line, on my other boats I have used Model Technics Trim Line.
Fairly successful but does need a drop of CA at the ends.
This is my first attempt to hand-brush a 7mm wide "raised ridge" line approx. 4.5 m long. %%
It will need slight touching up.
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I use frog tape. frim builders merchant or b and q. make sure you run a thumb along the edge. I did hear about sealing masking tape with hairspray. never tried it though. no hair and when i asked the other half i got threatened
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Just a thought - when did they start painting boot toppings on ships, I've seen photos of Dreadnought with and without!
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HMS Agincourt had a wide black line at the waterline, shown on the plans and in photos.
Difficulty painting it as it is on a slightly raised section of the moulding, and the sheer size of the hull.
So far hand applied the black "coach line", now just some minor touch ups along the raised lip edge corners.
Fiddly :((
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Painting
Hand painting the boot-top black between the grey and red areas has been challenging, but seems to have come out OK after some minor touch-ups afterwards. The main difficulty being the sheer size of each hull half. Using stands of different heights avoided using steps.
Luckily Halfords did touch up pen brushes for the grey primer, and although they no longer sell similar for the red I was able to get some on EBay.
Now I can add the fine trimmings. With 4mm punch pliers I cut out porthole windows in a darker grey transparent sheet and stuck the discs on. Next was floating the PE 5mm brass lettering for the ships name on each side of the stern using varnish as Geoff suggested.
The finish will be potentially vulnerable until I could cover it with a couple of light coats of PlastiKote satin varnish. Although EU regs have stopped them making this in polyurethane I had already got in a good stock before they did.
Then the hull be handleable and I can continue work on the superstructure.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-nnx2SxG/0/6e4e96cf/M/lettering-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-nnx2SxG/A)
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More . . ..
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-ctFRgVS/0/67fa1c31/M/more-painting-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-ctFRgVS/A)
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I'm falling in love Bob :-))
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Bob,
I've made the other three turret connectors for you but you will need to fin some m3 x 0.5 screws as i'm out! Next thing is how to get them to you!
Cheers
geoff
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Geoff, You are a real star sir. :-))
I had sent you an email on Friday, but that may be to your work email?
The bosses from China arrived much earlier than "by the 9 June!" delivery quoted. They are quite small though.
The screws are no problem. I will email you my address.
Bob K
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I'm falling in love Bob :-))
run bob run.
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Best laid plans when deadlines are wooshing up on my inside . . . . {:-{
As stated before I had four new unused cans of Plastikote clear satin polyurethane varnish to seal the finish on the hull halves. Took the first new can, two minutes of vigorous rattling, went to press the button for the first spray pass ..... Nothing ! Duff can. The same with the second, third AND fourth <*<
They had been stored nicely in a cupboard indoors for around nine months. Boy, I am teed off !
I managed to source some more from Amazon, but most of the week ahead is forecast rain.
Basically, not a lot I can do until the hull halves are handleable.
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Is there no way they can be re pressurised? I presume they are full of useful varnish, but the pressure has gone, or was never there in the first place?
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I am sure the pressure is still there. I've even tried soaking the spray caps in Polycleanse.
Maybe there is a maximum shelf life?
2 new cans on their way.
Normally very good stuff, used it on every boat. When fully dry provides a hard scratch resistant coat.
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I understand you note they were new/unused cans Bob, however I store by soaking nozzles in IPA from both new/unused and partially used cans
Possibly the worst thing to do is insert/place the cans nozzle valve on any packs that are planned for storage
Have not encountered any problems with Rustolium or the VHT range of spray packs in this way
Even with higher ambient temperatures in OZ, on colder days [20-] I place a spray can in direct sunlight for 30 minutes
This does increase the cans temperature contents by 3 or 4 degrees C...placing the spray can in warm water for a similar time would help elevate the temperature
Derek
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PlasitiKote arrived from Amazon. Absolutely no problems. Worked exactly like on previous boat finishes.
No idea what was wrong with those other four cans, especially after being stored in a cupboard indoors, CH controlled to 19 degrees.
Well, now I can progress with the build O0
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I've got two cans that worked perfectly when new but stopped when left on the shelf for a while. (Yes I did clear the nozzle after use.) Never touch the stuff now >>:-(
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As with most rattle cans it is always best to give it an inverted blast when finishing so the nozzle remains clear.
When using matt finishes a protective coating is essential to protect against finger marks, pond and rain water dirt.
Tomorrow, when the finish is hardened, I will start on the barbette structures with stepper bracketry and electronics box mountings.
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A gentleman over here, someone with 25 + years as a supplier and manufacturer of model parts, just had a rattle can explode in his face, taking an eye, fracturing bones and causing severe lacerations. Please use extreme caution when and if attempting to heat a rattle can. Please remember that they are full of explosive gases.
Jonathan
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Obviously, no one should attempt to heat a rattle can. Mine had been stored at room temperature in an indoors cupboard.
Anyway, all done. Finish is now nicely protected. Back to the turret mechanics
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I hope the gentleman recovers quickly. A chap on YouTube was using a blow torch periodically to warm a gas canister as it was freezing up.
He does many videos making madcap machines and suchlike, and though he made videos that date after this one meaning that he survived, I was wondering whilst watching whether he went up in a steel encrusted ball of flame.
While I would question his take on safety, he does a god job of explaining his builds, and does not drone on like so many other video makers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKpMQlVu1As (2:10) I did expect it to go horribly wrong :((
How is progress Bob?
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Turret Mountings
Most of what is being worked on right now will be largely hidden inside the hull.
Seven sets of stepper motor mountings, 2mm ply platforms with shaped hardwood mounting blocks, curve to suit inside face of barbette. I had to make a jig for this as they need to be dimensionally accurate. ie: Stepper spindle exactly on turret inner shell centreline. Minimal space either side of platforms to allow turret wiring to curve around and through.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-J5sWfc4/0/57de82b7/M/stepper-mountings-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-J5sWfc4/A)
And then Disaster
So little space to work on this monster in this tiny workshop. To use part of the worktop for turret mounting work I have had to stand each hull half on end on small step stools. Very handy for the hull that has the protruding brass latch bar. Anyway, I have to keep moving the hulls around as I squeeze around them.
As I moved past the fore end I must have caught something on one the gun barrels, and CRASH, over it went. Sprung most of the ply deck panel, and the casement inserts, plus ripped out four of the net booms.
Suffice to say repairs cost me two and half days I could ill afford to lose.
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Hi Bob,
Looking good - sorry to hear about your set back.
Can Martin put the snow covered logo back and we can have Mayhem @ Wicksteed in May December? - Maybe we would be ready by then...
Sure it will all be worth it...
C-3PO
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I can try the 'restore from backup' option C-3PO .... but I don't think that works on dreadnought on let than Windows 7! %)
Feel for you Sir Bob. what was the 1st thing you did?
Swear, cry, scream, kick / throw something?!!
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Ready or not the Beast From The
East South will be coming to Wicksteed !
I had previously thought the days grew rapidly shorter in December ? Wrong >:-o
When the hull went over, smack onto the point of the bow, was more of a <*< >>:-( <:( :police: moment.
Anyway, time pressing on. I have just ordered a load of wiring, fuse holders, etc from Comp. Shop.
I need to start sequentially charging up batteries too. But before that the fiddly wiring up of ten barrel LED's, and yes I will have to file the base ridges off the LED's so they will muzzle-load - after I've wired them of course.
On the 26th you may find me asleep with my finger on the fire button. I am tired already !
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I am tired already !
Know that feeling Bob - never had blisters from over use of wire cutters before - this is the debris from construction of 7 x Turret Control Units and still got 3 boards to go...
(http://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2018/05/08/TARGET_Blisters.png)
C-3PO
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Ha, ha! As we large battleship builders get into the special effects and scale detail its quite daunting the enormous amount of time and effort that goes into making one of these models, not to mention the financial cost and the debris that ensures!
Its just like the real thing!
Sometimes I get demoralised at how much there is left to do on a large model as at times it just seems endless!
Its all a significant emotional and capital investment (hence capital ships) which stretches our skill sets in all sorts of unanticipated directions and creates a huge mess. I usually have to stop when I've worked myself into a corner and there is no space to work on anything!
But its fun!! :-) :-)
Geoff
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Thanks for your appreciated support and encouragement gentlemen O0
How did the R.N. build the prototype HMS Dreadnaught in less than a year? Beats me.
I expect it to take a month just to do the deck planking, and two weeks more for the stancheons, but that is months away still.
LED Wiring
I now have LED's in all four firing turrets. Not too fiddly, apart from filing down the LED "ledge" so it fits in the muzzle. I wouldn't have to do this with 13.5 inch guns, but 12 inch are smaller.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-bzcJZfK/0/2a97ca27/M/LED-wiring-1-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-bzcJZfK/A)
The non firing turrets should be easier, although they have two LED's each, wired in parallel.
Running all the wiring distributed down the outside of the inner barbettes. To keep it tight in I intend using clear Gorilla Tape. Heck, it is a very close fit, and will be even closer where it all exits around the stepper motor bracketry.
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I think that every modeller has had similar problems- a few years ago I was building a model of HMS Coventry (C-class AA cruiser) and I took it into my barracks through a set of double doors. It got caught by one set of doors spinning it from my hands and the entire Model tumbled on to the floor. The Model’s superstructure had to be rebuilt again and a crack in the hull repaired. I learnt a second time later in the year the hard way when a gust of wind at Deans Marine open weekend blew it off the table!!!
I think you’re doing an excellent job- I’m looking forward to seeing the model at the end of the month.
Dreadnought was completed so quickly because the RN were very sneaky and had much of the hull plating pre-made in advance.
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I imagine having the little terrier Jackie at the builder's heels daily helped keep minds focussed! Also, Pompey was considered a fast builder of ships.
Anyhow, Its good to see that your progress albeit threatened by a mishap is going well. The turrets and their systems all look good. Don't forget to have a cuppa at regular intervals to keep match fit :-))
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I seem to recall that Portsmouth had been reorganised a few years earlier by Fisher so it was a very efficient yard. Also extensive efforts were made to use standard sized plates and indeed they did stockpile material in advance. I seem to recall they also "borrowed" some turrets from the Lord Nelson class to speed construction.
The fast construction was also a huge credit on the project managers at Portsmouth and the large workforce.
In addition in introducing a new design which had the potential to revolutionise all battleship construction to a degree it made obsolete all the other battleships (not actually true) so speed of construction was important to demonstrate to the world that we could out build any other nation so it was also a very strong political statement. The fact that it all worked so well was a tremendous achievement for all concerned.
It was very important development and until Dreadnought had undergone trials the RN could not lay down any more battleships.
The pre dreadnoughts were still very powerful ships and other than at long range Dreadnought would have been in trouble with a Lord Nelson at medium ranges, which were typical in the North Sea, as Lord nelson was much better protected and could fire a nine gun broadside as opposed to Dreadnoughts 8 guns (the 9.2" weapon on LN was a main armament weapon and was quite capable of penetrating thick armour at the 6,000 yard range envisaged at the time.
With the development of long range fire and the associated fire control equipment which was just perfected by WW1 the Dreadnoughts really came into their own, which was the plan!
I find it a fascinating period of history.
Cheers
Geoff
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At some point it would be great to see photos of your amazing HMS Lord Nelson on Mayhem, especially the beautiful but complex watchmaking gear that mover the turrets.
Lord Nelson was almost a Dreadnaught, the only problem was in differentially spotting the 9.2 and 12 inch shells and telling which was which for rangefinding purposes, especially at longer ranges.
Agincourt did not even have a Dreyer Fire Control Table system at Jutland. I am amazed how ships could hit anything under those conditions.
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The Dreyer fire control table was linked into director firing which was being fitted throughout the fleet. I think only Agincourt at Erin didn't have it by the time of Jutland.
Individual gun laying was still very effective and in certain conditions could even be more effective when rate of fire is considered as the faster gun crews could fire more shots but with director firing had to wait for the slowest.
The well known trials between Orion and Thunderer were not really as conclusive as has been portrayed. Director firing was significantly better under difficult conditions but individual fire was still effective. Falklands demonstrated this as whilst the pictures show the director tower on Invincible is was not yet connected.
On another thread I challenged the statements about Invincible and Inflexible's shooting as they hit the German ships at least 45 times and in turn were hit 25 times and whilst most hits were at lesser range they disabled the German ships at long range! 25 hits vs 45 hits despite the Germans being crack gunnery ships? A bit of Fisher spite I think!
Before radar a key consideration was the light gauge for long range fire.
Cheers
Geoff
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LED's
Wiring the LED's for the three non firing turrets done. There are two LED's in each, wired in parallel.
A plastic clip glued to the ply to retain the wiring.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-n5CCnGn/0/c84aad5e/M/LED-wiring-2-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-n5CCnGn/A)
My temperature controlled solder station decided to fail during this. Bit not heating. Luckily I had an old fashioned soldering iron as a backup.
Next to do are the turret base cylinders for the above. Getting there, slowly.
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Typical isn't it >:-o They never fail when you have loads of time >>:-(
Lovely job :-))
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Other Turret Mountings
Three non-firing turret mountings were next to be built. 76mm precision ABS extrusion from Plastruct. Flanged end caps in 0.5 and 1.5mm Plasticard. Plustruct tubes used to route the LED wires through the barbettes.
Special thanks to Geoff for turning up three more flanged bosses for stepper motors mounting, as per the mountings on his firing turret assemblies.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-39NRzLR/0/a1b07d87/M/turret-base-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-39NRzLR/A)
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Wicksteed T-10
Two days to charge up the seven new 12V batteries, one at a time. Four for the firing turrets, then one in each hull half for the electronics, plus the big main propulsion battery aft.
Mounting the turrets
Everything has to be dry assembled before gluing the fixed outer barbette tubes into the deck panels, because after that things get more difficult to work on. A slight delay to order shorter stepper shaft screws as wiring could possibly snag as the turret rotates. Keeping the cap heads close to the mounting boss.
One thing I cannot check is the actual rotation as the stepper motors can only be operated by the TARGET electronics.
Outer barbettes now fixed in place. Turrets with rotating inner barbettes lowered into place.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-hDm7CbL/0/6c747889/M/turrets-top-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-hDm7CbL/A)
Next is underside view, showing the stepper motors, support brackets, and loads of wiring to connect to the Arduino boxes next week.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-66fMXM6/0/64f02934/M/turret-under-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-66fMXM6/A)
Still not had the opportunity to fit the batteries and show Agincourt some water. Waiting for a puncture repair kit for the kids ten foot paddling pool.
Clock is ticking !!!!
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can't wait to see this in the flesh. last time i saw it was at deans last year! or was it at wicksteed when Ron was sneaking round bushes with a 7ft hull!
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get scabs from a cycle shop for the pool bob.
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can't wait to see this in the flesh. last time i saw it was at deans last year! or was it at wicksteed when Ron was sneaking round bushes with a 7ft hull!
It was indeed Wicksted last year when Ron Dean sneaked in the 7 foot hull, and we filled it with 29 kg of ballast. A couple of months later I went to Peterborough to cut it in half so I could bring it home. The pool puncture needs a BIG patch before I can ballast test the hull.
I would like to give special thanks to Geoff and C-3PO for their appreciated work in helping me realise a really crazy project.
PS: Six of the seven turrets now mounted.
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Don't do yourself a mischief pumping that pool up once you have patched it Bob ;) The turrets on their decks are looking brilliant.
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Standing back, this project is a brilliant collaborative effort and something which I think takes model boating into new territory. All concerned are to be very much congratulated. Building large warship models will never be the same again.
Great achievement!
Colin
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Hello Bob,
as a fellow Battleship builder, I must say, What a magnificent ship! I went through as many pages of this thread but I still have many to look at...
I am really interested in the way you motorized your turrets. I was considering the same sort of system for my turrets on Richelieu, until I got lazy and went the high torque servos route {:-{.
Your gun "firing" system is amazing. I probably missed the information, but how are you going to simulate the noise of a gun discharge?
I went the pyrotechnic route which made everything a lot simpler (this being said this is my first RC scratch built ship and I had zero experience when I started it :embarrassed:).
Again, what a superb ship you are building, and I can't wait to follow your progress.
Cheers
Serge
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Hello Serge,
I hope Bob won't mind me stepping in one one aspect of your post.
I probably missed the information, but how are you going to simulate the noise of a gun discharge?
Bob and I have a plan for the gun discharge noise but until after the 27th May (Model Boat Mayhem Weekend @ Wicksteed Park 26/27th May) - our plans remain "under wraps"
C-3PO
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Hello Serge,
I hope Bob won't mind me stepping in one one aspect of your post.
Bob and I have a plan for the gun discharge noise but until after the 27th May (Model Boat Mayhem Weekend @ Wicksteed Park 26/27th May) - our plans remain "under wraps"
C-3PO
Haaa... Thx C-3PO. Can't wait to see what you guys come up with. You're going to need some strong bangs for sure!
Cheers
Serge
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Hello Serge,
Many thanks for your kind words. I have been following your amazing Richelieu build.
Beautiful detail work. Lovely build pictures. Very impressive detail.
We are using fog fluid with a pump and thermistor heating element. Using pyrotechnics like yours is very difficult in England as you need special licences to store and fire pyrotechnic materials.
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Hello Serge,
Many thanks for your kind words. I have been following your amazing Richelieu build.
Beautiful detail work. Lovely build pictures. Very impressive detail.
We are using fog fluid with a pump and thermistor heating element. Using pyrotechnics like yours is very difficult in England as you need special licences to store and fire pyrotechnic materials.
Hello Bob,
hmmm, it's just like what I remembered from my stay in Scotland... Mind you, I think it's the same in France, but, since we can still use firecrackers, I am taking the "liberty"! ok2
Cheers
Serge
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.....''Bob and I have a plan for the gun discharge noise" ....
OK Guys.....does the scale of the vessel represent the scale reduction in sound pressure level?
Sound is 3D, so the actual SPL x by the cube root of scale = scale SPL...is this how you see [hear] it?
Derek
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Wicksteed T-9
Almost into the last week. Not been able to ballast check the hull with batteries in yet. Lots of wiring parts from Comp Shop due shortly. Currently working on ten computer racks.
Computer Racks
There will be lots of 100 x 75 x 17mm deep boxes containing the special Arduino boards, each one programmed specifically for its unique location. I made up ten support brackets from 2mm ply and Plastruct angle. One for each turret, plus MCU Master and MCU Slave units. These to be fixed by screws close alongside the barbettes so deck assemblies can be removed complete, with minimum interconnecting wiring between the deck assemblies.
Picture below shows a typical Arduino board mounting. There are other boxes for electronic compass etc but these will be sited on test.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-wqdp8Lj/0/b69fbd0f/M/rack-1-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-wqdp8Lj/A)
Power Wiring
I really dislike keep pulling off terminals to charge batteries. Also I need to be able to power up the system in a defined sequence. So each battery will have a mini-panel with C/O switch and charging sockets, plus fuse of course. With the switch in one position power goes to the equipment. In the other position power is disconnected and diverted to the charging sockets. The big LiFePO4 battery has its own built in charging socket, battery status LED’s and clip in power connector. Fuses are on the Distribution Board.
All power controls are accessible under one deck panel assembly in each hull half.
PS Derek: We have a sound but Cunning Plan.
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.....''Bob and I have a plan for the gun discharge noise" ....
OK Guys.....does the scale of the vessel represent the scale reduction in sound pressure level?
Sound is 3D, so the actual SPL x by the cube root of scale = scale SPL...is this how you see [hear] it?
Derek
Derek - Not sure I understand this - in laymans terms are you saying that we should scale the db of the sound in relation to the scale of the boat?
Our sound might be heard the other side of the lake if we are lucky...
C-3PO
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This is not my field, but I'll chip in anyway. Ideally we want to replicate the sound of a battleship broadside which I think will prove very difficult due to the scale effect. It may be that a simple "boom" being a single drum strike may carry better across the water due to the nature of the actual sound wave particularly if enhances.
As example being years ago there were complaints that TV adverts were louder that the movie. Investigation revealed they were not louder but the loud component had been stretched to be a longer component. Simplistically I think most sound is in a curve/sine wave format but if square then you have the same loudness but over a longer period. I bet an analysis if a battleship firing would produce a very complex pattern so perhaps a simpler pattern would produce a better effect at the scale we are working.
Just random thoughts and I expect to be shot down over this so not sure it contributes anything.
Cheers
Geoff
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In my opinion there are real differences between perceived scale and actual scale.
ie: 10mph at 1/96 is hurricane force, but because scale waves on a lake move differently 10mph becomes realistic sailing conditions. The same way as perceived scale speed will generally be a little quicker than actual scale. You need a slight bow wave to make it look right.
Sound is difficult to generate on a model in a perceived accurate way. It will not travel anyway near as far unless you have a speaker capable of pushing huge amounts of air. We should hear what we expect to hear, without reducing frequency etc. A suitably edited audio clip of actual gunfire from a battleship will sound that, what you would expect to hear, although diminished in range of how far it carries.
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C-3PO & Bob....no, I do not know the answer either.......scale is a funny thing.......if you were to apply scale rotational speed for the turrets train.......the barrels would go zip..zip from side to side and look totally unrealistic so slow visual speed of train & elevation is needed...
[SPL is a log scale ....140dB may sound thirty x as loud as 110 dB]...so I am thinking that sound may be a unit of measurement that does not scale well and still provide an aural perception of accuracy
I am sure we have all seen & listened to video's of an Iowa Class Battleship fire their 16"guns {greater than 130 dB??} . Any sailor unfortunate to be on deck when these guns were fired ended up with permanently perforated ear drums
Maybe if it sounds loud and right ......it must be right :-))
Derek
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First time in the water !!!
Finally, received the “Next Day Delivery” batteries ordered Friday (Delayed by a Wedding) arrived Monday.
The ten foot paddling pool was repaired today.
Hull halves joined with sliding stainless telescopic tubes, and inter-hull latch clipped home. Currently with deck panels (and guns etc) removed to check for leaks.
It Floats !!!
A shade heavier than planned due to having to replace the special LiFePO4 battery (2.2 kg) with two regular 9Ah SLA’s totalling 5.6 kg. Result is it floats slightly lower than calculated, but I can live with that.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-hLjcnVd/0/94b89639/M/it-floats-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-hLjcnVd/A)
A couple of very minor leaks, but no problems. A little bit from round the rudder tube, it must have taken a knock, and bit around the latch coffer dam.
With deck panels off you can see the switches and charging sockets for the 8 batteries required for the various electrical systems.
Electronics to be married up on Saturday morning in Sudborough, on the way to Wicksteed.
Are we cutting it fine ??? Yes
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looking forward to seeing this Bob. build of the year
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So Bob, do you now fit wheels to it and drive to Mayhem with the car on the back......or....more likely will you be sleeping inside it this year
Tis awesome M8.......that is text speak apparently :-))
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Hark at you Phil, going all 'Yoof' on us!
I am pleased for you Bob. It shows that you were doing it right from the word go if you only have a few wee leaks and a little extra depth. Go careful with setting your electrics up and don't rush. We'd rather see a running model than one that experienced the magic grey smoke from rushing the other electrics.
She looks fab :-))
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Wicksteed T-0
The day of Wicksteed had finally arrived and after a very early start I journeyed to C0-3PO’s to commence the initial marrying up of the floating hardware and the intricate computer systems. It was highly unlikely that we would complete the transplant, test everything, and update the software in each of the boxes. However, if we could achieve something that could be demonstrated that would be wonderful.
After installing the Main Control Unit, Slave Control Unit, and getting the two halves of the ship talking to each other, C-3PO installed the forward three turret control boxes. Turrets rotated and LED’s flashed. Discretion prevailed in not firing the guns in his conservatory. I know they make a lot of smoke.
At that point it was 3 PM So we headed to Mayhem, hopefully not too late to create a stir.
The two hull halves were joined together and the huge ship lowered into the water for it’s maiden voyage. Wonderful to see it underway for the first time under power. Initial thoughts were that it really did not want to steer, and the big motors generated less tractive effort that anticipated, but an awesome start.
Did anyone get a photo ?
Huge thanks to Geoff and C-3PO.
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It was great to you and Agin/Court over the weekend to see the progress in model form and I’m certainly impressed. I’ve got some pictures on my camera when she was on the water. I’ll download them this afternoon for you. :-))
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Top man Nick. Thank you. I was too busy with my Tx to take photo's. :-))
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Hi Bob
Just found the pictures of Agincourt on the water late Saturday evening. :-))
(https://thumb.ibb.co/cdZPtJ/P5260243.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cdZPtJ) (https://thumb.ibb.co/ePOTLy/P5260244.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ePOTLy)
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Many thanks Nick. It proves she was on the water :-))
Some modifications were found necessary after the maiden voyage due to lack of propulsive oomph (if that is the correct nautical term?) plus great reluctance to steer. So, the four 35mm props are being replaced with 45mm ones, which means I have to build in some under-keel protective skegs to avoid the prop edges clouting the table. The rudder needs to be increased in size by around 50%.
However, it sailed. First water O0
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It was good to see her sail for the first time, and I reckon she did very well. The minimal water ingress can be alleviated and is to be expected on a maiden voyage.
Keep up the good work Bob!
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Indeed good to see her on the water and I can't wait until the tripods are mounted and she looks more like the real ship. The leakage was caused by capillary action at the hull joint and possibly by virtue of the motion of the ship. A big dollop of Vaseline may stop this or possibly some silicon sealant in a "U" shape with Vaseline the other side to stop it sticking, then pull the hull together and you may get a perfect seal or at least significantly reduce the water intake. To put this into perspective it was only about 1/2 a cup of water and that was contained by the latch mechanism so at some point it would stop leaking any more as the levels stabilised.
Keep up the good work.
Cheers
Geoff
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Thank you Geoff,
It did not help that the temporary main propulsion batteries were 3Kg heavier than planned for, making her over a cm lower in the water, and the latching mechanism closer to waterline. The coffer dam around this limited ingress but I will probably need to do as you suggest even with the replacement lighter LiFePO4 ones installed. I had thought of embedding a one inch diameter O ring around the bar, set in to half its thickness. The clamping force on the latch should force a seal, but Vasalene etc would help.
The telescopic tubes arrangement supported the hulls well, and did not leak.
I believe this may be a first for hull halves connection so it is experimental.
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Propulsion & Steering
Motors props and steering becomes a whole new science for very large ships. All the knowledge and experience gained on previous smaller vessels seems to fall flat at this magnitude. I know several of us have run into problems in this bigger ball park.
Some necessary modifications after the maiden voyage at Wicksteed. A lack of propulsive oomph (if that is the correct nautical term?) plus great reluctance to steer. So, the four 35mm props have been replaced with 45mm ones, 65% additional blade area. Inner and outer props now slightly overlap when viewed from the rear.
This meant I had to build a protective skeg projection under the rear of the keel to ensure the propeller tips did not get damaged against the table prior to launching.
The rudder needed to be increased in size by around 50% to provide greater effect in the water flow behind the props. The extended forward end of the rudder now slightly overlaps the edge of the inboard propeller on full rudder. Hopefully these modifications will make Agincourt move better on the water.
Before
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-nnx2SxG/0/6e4e96cf/M/lettering-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-nnx2SxG/A)
After
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-RGtgfZp/0/b868b671/M/rudder-and-props-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-RGtgfZp/A)
Only another trip to a lake will tell if this solves the problems, but before that I need to put an ammeter in line to the drive system to check values, and another dip in the ten foot paddling pool for a batteries refit as she is floating 30mm too deep. Much of that is due to the two 12V 9Ah SLA's in parallel I had to put in to replace the 12V 16Ah LiFePO4 lightweight battery that refused to fit in the space by 3mm. That added nearly 4Kg over the planned displacement.
The 8 batteries comprise a major part of the displacement.
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That's a big rudder Bob! However, have you introduced mixing to get the motors to help in turning the ship. If not, it could make a significant difference. Particularly if the ship is moving at slow speed or is stopped.
Colin
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Hi Bob,
I know you have a P94 Dual ESC and Mixer installed - is it running in mode 3?
https://www.componentshop.co.uk/pdf/P94.pdf - Switch 1 off / Switch 2 on?
C-3PO
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Bob,
Is there no way you can get the larger battery to fit as its quite a difference in weight. If its a bulkhead issue you could always cut a door then seal the bulkhead the other side which would give you another 4-5mm to play with. As you have a fibreglass hull this would not impact the integrity of the structure.
I suspect the current consumption with the new props will be hardly any different given the high torque motors you have.
Cheers
Geoff
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ob.......in October 2017 you display outboard turning propellers which is the traditional format for Capital size or Class and latter design Naval vessels
Today you display inboard turning propellers and comment on poor steerage characteristics
Have I missed the reversal of the propeller rotation?, simply increasing propeller diameter to water that is not there will do little
The first image is October 2017, the second image is this week
As C-3PO noted, ......the P94 Dual ESC and Mixer installed - running in mode 3 is also critical
Derek
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Why not use LiPo instead of LiFePO4, generally smaller and lighter.. I have a couple of 3S (nominally 12V when charged) 8Ah Lipo packs, each 165 x 70 x 25mm weighing 590g each. A pair of them in parallel gives 16Ah with capacity of providing much more current than you need. Looking on Amazon an equivalent 12V 16Ah LiFePO4 battery weighs 2200g twice the weight.
Jim
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OK. Some very old pictures Derek. The latest shows inboard turning props, which IMO are more efficient.
I ended up using Mode 4 on the P94, on advice from Dave M (Inertia) back in October.
"100% mixing on a 7ft model would be a bit extreme!"
I can't cut the bulkheads now they are installed. They are 9 and 12mm thick for the mounting tubes, and not accessible now.
The current characteristics of the thermistors do not lend themselves to LiPo's, and need to be 12V.
Before going much further I need to get this into the giant paddling pool for some tests with an ammeter before deciding on batteries At the same time I will test the waterline without batteries, gradually adding them until I go over depth on the waterline. That will ultimately define battery choices.
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Bob,
I have also thought about using LiPo's for the thermistors and whilst a 3 cell is nominally 11.1 volts I think this would work okay because even with lead acid batteries as they are used the voltage will drop below 12 volts - it just takes longer to get the thermistors to the required temperature. Lead acid can also be virtually discharged and used again where this would be the death of a LiPo.
Experimentation would be the key as it may well be that the current availability is more important than voltage.
The problem I see with LiPo's is that:
1) You would need some electronic circuitry to stop them over discharging and as this is voltage triggered I don't know how long they would last for before the voltage trigger kicked in.
2) Cost - individually they typically cost more than a single lead acid battery
3) You would need at least two or more wired in parallel to get the required capacity and I understand this can be tricky as unless they are identical one battery will look to discharge into the other at an exponential rate causing damage. I'm pretty sure there is some "electrickery" available to alleviate this problem though.
However I would see no reason why you couldn't use them for motive power and save weight that way as a possible solution. The speed controllers would need to be designed for LiPo usage as these automatically prevent over discharge.
I appreciate it would be impossible to remove a bulkhead but assuming the battery would otherwise fit you could drill a series of interlinked holes to cut out a section maybe? I can't recall the precise layout and internal structure which may preclude this but it may be viable to let you use the light weight battery.
Such issues always plague us big model builders. Just because its big doesn't actually mean you have usable internal space!
Cheers
Geoff
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I ended up using Mode 4 on the P94, on advice from Dave M (Inertia) back in October.
"100% mixing on a 7ft model would be a bit extreme!"
Bob,
I would think it would be worth a try in mode 3 - reading the PDF that would have been the mode I would have chosen - nothing to loose...
PDF specifies:
Mode 4 faster vessels e.g. fast luxury cruisers, MTBs and modern lifeboats
Mode 3 slower vessels e.g. tugs, ferries, fishing vessels and other work-boats
C-3PO
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Bob,
The problem I see with LiPo's is that:
1) You would need some electronic circuitry to stop them over discharging and as this is voltage triggered I don't know how long they would last for before the voltage trigger kicked in.
There are plenty of low voltage warning sensors available, many use either bright LEDs or a loud buzzer to signal low voltage. LiPo generally hold their voltage under load better than gell cells. Why they are used in high power electric flight.
2) Cost - individually they typically cost more than a single lead acid battery
3) You would need at least two or more wired in parallel to get the required capacity and I understand this can be tricky as unless they are identical one battery will look to discharge into the other at an exponential rate causing damage. I'm pretty sure there is some "electrickery" available to alleviate this problem though.
LiPos are easy to connect in parallel, you just need two with the same capacity and as long as they are fully charged when connected they will not discharge into each other. This 'problem' was debunked years ago on RC Universe, originally for Lead acids, although still applicable for LiPos. In fact many of the larger LiPos are made up of parallel cells. ( often described as 3S2P for example) I have regularly used 2 packs in parallel without any problems both in the air and on the water.
However I would see no reason why you couldn't use them for motive power and save weight that way as a possible solution. The speed controllers would need to be designed for LiPo usage as these automatically prevent over discharge.
Cheers
Geoff
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Testing
I connected up an ammeter in between the batteries and the propulsion system. Most odd. Showing just under 2 Amps with all four motors turning flat out in air. Strange, because these four motors are rated at 1.9 A each I expected a lot more. Obviously it is with water resistance that counts.
Joined up the two hull halves and with assistance lowered it into the ten foot diameter paddling pool.
With propellers going flat out in water it still shows only 4 Amps. Not what I had expected. Maybe the Buehler spec was for driving a much higher mechanical resistance load. Well, one thing, that gives me more options on batteries as I was expecting nearer 8 Amps for four motors.
Buehler rate these motors as 12-24V. 24V batteries are not an option unless I connect 12V in series, but the ESC’s are only rated up to 15V so that is out. The next choice is less Amp Hour capacity for the main batteries, which will save a lot of weight. With only one of the two 2.6Kg 9Ah batteries installed she sits more closely to the waterline.
Now if I can offload that to shore and fit a single LiFePO4 12V 7AH that should still give me two hours sailing (flat out) plus shed 1.6Kg of weight. (4.2 Kg less than twin SLA’s)
Turning
Next I tested the steering, as far as I could with only 18 inches of water for and aft. Remarkably the larger props quickly moved it forwards, and full rudder provided a good swing. The same in reverse. In fact reversing the props seemed to slow it considerably even in a confined space. Being able to stop is as essential as a workable turning circle.
I think I am getting there. :-))
PS: LifePO4's are self limiting on current, whereas LiPo's would need additional circuitry to shut down on low voltage.
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Bob,
Iron Duke only draws about 3.5 amps on full throttle in the water and about 2.5 amps in the air running on 6 volts. I suspect the current consumption is lower that you anticipated as you are using the motors on 12 volts and not 24 volts but its a very positive result.
Cheers
Geoff
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Geoff,
It is indeed a positive result, though I am still not sure why as the motors are quoted at 33W, which does not equate to the half Amp each I appear to be getting, even at 12V.
Still, not to look a gift horse in the mouth. If I can run them on a 960gm 12V 7Ah LiFePo4 I am a happy bunny. Battery on order.
Bob K
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Hull Latching
Despite the inter hull latching mechanism being inside a coffer dam, the latching bar is still close to the waterline. With battery weights now reduced the square bar should be well clear, but to protect it further I carefully dremeled a circular U groove to half embed a one inch diameter O ring, embedded in epoxy. Thus the clamping latch has a sealing ring around it which the the hull face clamps against.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-cRfFT3F/0/198d38d7/M/o-ring-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-cRfFT3F/A)
The latch mechanism is very effective and easy to use, but unfortunately the stepper motor under turret #3 fouls on it when latched, even after cutting away part of the latch handle. I need to redesign this to allow the deck assembly to fit fully flush. This will involve a bespoke latch, rather than utilising a stock item.
Thinking cap on. It's going to need a latch that goes around the stepper motor.
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Having seen the bloke on Project binky (YouTube Austin Mini project series) cut lumps out of his new front chassis and then rebuild and weld bits in, I imagine that you could make a new latch to weld onto the stump of the old one and retain the strength required to make it workable.
I am pleased that you have managed to modify 'Court' to improve movement and turning :-)) T'is a bloomin nuisance about that motor poking into the latch >:-o
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It is indeed a nuisance Ian, but that is development into the unknown.
Hull Latching
As depicted in the picture below, even cutting away part of the latch handle was insufficient to clear the bottom of the #3 turret stepper motor. I had considered cutting away part of the 3mm thick under shoe as well but it was still going to be very close. The latch clamps the two hull halves together.
I decided to bite the bullet and use a shorter latch mechanism mounted further back, with the threaded rod extended using an M6 threaded spacer. No, I was not going to get involved with welding etc.
The new latch was secured using M5 nutserts, epoxied in position. The new assembly clears the stepper motor allowing the deck panel to fit properly flush.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-dfrRsJ9/0/1a77c0bd/M/latch-mods-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-dfrRsJ9/A)
New battery
The new 12v 7Ah LifePO4 battery weighs only 960gm, so I discarded the two 12V 9Ah SLA’s weighing in at 5.2Kg after measuring just under 4A for the four Buehler motors running full speed in water. Agincourt now sits with her waterline just above water. This will allow for completing the superstructure, tripod masts, and detailing.
Some expensive mistakes made in battery selection, but that’s the cost of developing something so radically large. There is a lot of ancillary weight on board, namely 3Kg for the four motors, 4Kg of joining tubes, and some very thick bulkheads to support them.
Six batteries in all fitted, totalling 8Kg. The ultra light LiFePO4 was a life saver.
Weather permitting she will be going to Black Park Lake on Sunday. I think I have the propulsion system effective now with much larger props, and she should turn with greatly enlarged rudder.
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The batteries you have discarded should have resale value as I am sure you kept them topped up.
That was a good idea for the latch and has saved lots of cutting and redesign of the hull and it's internals beyond that needed immediately for mounting the latch.
Onwards and upwards Bob :-))
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Weather permitting she will be going to Black Park Lake on Sunday. I think I have the propulsion system effective now with much larger props, and she should turn with greatly enlarged rudder.
Bob - looking good - pleased you have found a solution - when you next take her out any chance of a fellow club member taking some video to post on here?
C-3PO
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That would be excellent.
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Neccesity is the mother of all invention........according to some bloke named Plato........whoever he is %)
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Sailing
Agincourt went to Black Park Lake today, her home port.
Hopefully the modifications to propellers, rudder and lighter batteries, would make all the difference.
The modified ship transporter did the short journey from car to water admirably, even with a fully laden payload on board.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-sqJ5VBg/0/fcc9ea95/M/transporter-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-sqJ5VBg/A)
On the water
The two halves were assembled at the waters edge using the three stainless connecting tubes and toggle latch clamping the two ends. With assistance from a fellow club member she was lowered into the water.
First thoughts: Now almost exactly on the waterline, thanks to replacing the two huge SLA batteries with the single 960gm LiFePO4 of 12V 7Ah.
The toggle latch bar hole is now an inch above the waterline, and with an embedded O ring for extra security. No visible water ingress. Gently ahead, props now moving her well. Once clear of the bank full throttle.
Now that’s more like it!.
A realistic turn of speed with the much larger props fitted. The Buehler motors with rubber couplings virtually silent even under load.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-XDcPtcC/0/4730cf9a/M/BP%20trials%203-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-XDcPtcC/A)
Turning was vastly improved with the greatly enlarged rudder, plus mixing on the two outer props 165mm apart. She can now steer properly in a congested seaway, and stop within a third of her length in an emergency.
After two hours of sailing the Tracer 7Ah battery was still going strong, which was another aim of this trial sailing session.
Two hours sailing time being a key prerequisite for the new lighter battery arrangement.
I was asked to take a movie. Here it is. (Sorry about the shaky quality) But judge for yourself. She runs and turns beautifully, and the new battery can run the four Buehler’s for at least two hours. I am a happy bunny.
The Movie !!!
https://youtu.be/ARyMl7_Qfi0 (https://youtu.be/ARyMl7_Qfi0)
I feel well relieved that the key parts of this trial proved most successful, in fact better than I had hoped.
Making a 7 foot ship in two parts able to fit in my small car, developing an easy way of assembling the halves at waters edge, and launching it. The waterline is almost spot on to calculations, allowing for the rest of the superstructure and detailing. And most important it remained watertight.
I can now concentrate on the TARGET electronics and gun fire system at my leisure, whilst starting in earnest on the detailing - Which is my favourite part of any build.
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Please can you check and repost the link as I can't seem to make it work?
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Great news Bob
You are nearly there
Linc don't work though
mate.
Ned
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Strange. Link works here, and its set to "Public" on YouTube.
It also works copy/pasted into YouTube
Try https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARyMl7_Qfi0&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARyMl7_Qfi0&feature=youtu.be)
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Sorry Bob but link still not working?
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Doesn't work for me either, just a black screen with an exclamation mark on it. Like this: https://webapps.stackexchange.com/questions/116483/youtube-has-a-grey-exclamation-mark
Colin
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working perfectly for me :}
Bob
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Hopefully the video is now working for everyone, but I can assure you all that Agincourt was very manoeuvrable and despite lacking top hamper, she looks darned regal. Top marks to you Bob for succeeding thus far.
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Yes, OK for me now. The model looks very responsive and impressive, you seem to have nailed it Bob.
Colin
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Looking good Bob - a great achievement....
C-3PO
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Magic thanks, that looks the dog's danglies, it really does.
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Thank you gentlemen. I appreciate your support and encouragement for this over ambitious build project.
After today I am finally beginning to believe it is all possible.
I have had one of Geoff's guns firing smoke, and have seen C-3PO's Arduino boxes working the steppers.
Thanks for everyones patience over the last year. O0
No idea what happened to the video for a while, maybe it needed time to propagate on the YouTube network?
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Just watched it Bob, looks very majestic on the water, all the hard work is paying off.
Look forward to the next phase of the build...... :-))
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Next Stages
After last week’s very successful sailing at Black Park I am now into an extensive planning mode for the next stages of the build. Completing the electronics make take some time, apart from tidying up wiring, so I need to concentrate on the physical build.
Further to my testing on the new LiFePO4 battery, which easily ran for a full two hour sailing session, I later found the built-in “fuel level” LED’s were still showing a full voltage charge. Good confirmation that there was plenty in reserve.
Four areas being planned in parallel. The Admiral’s stern walk structure, to be fabricated from brass rod and copper mesh. Special care to make the hull jointing strong as it is potentially vulnerable. (What isn’t on this heavy ship!)
The two sets of tripod masts will need section tubes over thinner cores as they go through numerous decks at angles.
Torpedo netting. The fibreglass mesh is tough to roll, even after heating in hot water. I intend using 16AWG black silicon wire as a core and secure with thread before mounting on the net platforms.
Then the funnels, which I am looking forward to. The trick will be to make them light weight, as well as strong. With funnels and tripods the superstructure can be further advanced.
Enough to keep me amused for a while.
In case you missed it, sea trials at Black Park
https://youtu.be/ARyMl7_Qfi0[/b]]https://youtu.be/ARyMl7_Qfi0 (http://[b)
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Link went wonky - after I had tested it
https://youtu.be/ARyMl7_Qfi0 (https://youtu.be/ARyMl7_Qfi0)
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Bob,
In the past I have used dressmakers tulle for netting. Its a stiff netting used in dresses. On a practical basis I used a brass rod and wrapped it round in a long spiral, then a single strand of cotton and then another strand spiral going the other way (I tried a long narrow section rolled lengthwise but found it impossible to keep nest), this keep it all in a neat roll. I then slid the rod out and you have a thin hollow tube of black netting. This was then painted in grey as you don't want it black but a dark grey. It was then glued to the net shelf. In the old days I then uses to run the Arial inside the tube. This brought it outside and was completely invisible.
I intend to use the same process on my Invincible.
Cheers
Geoff
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Geoff,
That sounds a good idea, I will try that. Struggling a bit with the f/glass fine mesh.
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Hi
Have a look at beekeeper faces netting, very fine and folds and flows easily, I use it on my pre-dreadnought models Regards Deans marine
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Thank you all for the much appreciated advice. The Mayhem community has such depth of experience and expertise. O0
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Just watched the video Bob she looks great afloat and the handling looks very realistic, you got to be pleased, I know I would be. :-))
Joe
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Thank you Joe. Certainly goes a lot better than its first run at Wicksteed Park.
I am indeed well pleased with the modifications since then
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Looking great Bob :-))
Hope we get to see her again at Ron’s open weekend in September :-)
And hi by the way from 37 degree Centigrade sunny Akrotiri!!!
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Thank you Nick, and yes I will be at Ron Dean's.
Not much progress
Quite a lot of planning on how to create the funnels, tripod masts, stern walk, and torpedo net rolls. Suggestions given appreciated, I am working on trials with new netting.
However, nothing much to show at this stage. Somewhat hot in the workshop, but a lovely day for sailing at Black Park. I am starting to get the hang of car-loading and assembling this 2.2 meter monster.
So, spent a couple of hours lazily manoeuvring Agincourt around a fairly busy sea way. Although large and heavy she does respond nimbly when boxed in by yachts and rowboats. I am well happy how she sails, although the externals can be rather vulnerable, especially the enlarged rudder. The little LiFePO4 propulsion battery was still showing all five LED’s on its “fuel gauge” after I got home.
Do not expect frequent updates. Just about every item needs to be designed and scratch built, although I now have Ron Dean's fittings list which will help with many of the 1/96 standard parts for that era.
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If you need any 3Pdr HA guns, let me know Bob.
As T888's Akazuki project shows, Funnels are a model in their own right. Even the little Destroyer ones that I made took a lot longer than I expected. A tube with a whistle and nowt else they are not. The Funnels you need may be big enough to require some internal framework and ladders!
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Thank you Ian. You do make lovely funnels. :-))
They are indeed mini models in their own right, almost 100mm tall, oval, with lots of detail.
Plus of course they are both of different shape and section. Challenging, and interesting.
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Sorry for lack of progress recently, there have a number of personal issues that have put a hold on buying materials etc. Finally, I am back on track.
I have decided to replace the four 5Ah SLA batteries for the gunfire system with 5Ah NiMh as they are much lighter.
The recent sailing trials went well, but indicated a further reduction in displacement required. Reducing from 1.58Kg to 704 gam times four.
Batteries are on order
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Don't fret Bob. As long as you and yours are alright. You will get her done when you get her done; we will still be along for the journey :}
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Hi Bob
How is Agin and Court going? If you need inspiration if you look in the last issue of Model Boats you can see Ron Kingdon's G3 battlecruiser but appearing behind her in the picture is Agincourt. My Invincible is on a go-slow at the moment due to a project for the Model Boats editor but I'll be back up and running with her in the next couple of weeks. Had hoped to see you at the Deans Marine Christmas Do where I bought Invincible in her current condition and bought (I know... :embarrassed: ) a hull from Ron's scrapyard of the 1882 turret ship HMS Inflexible. Looking at alternatives for her as there quite a few Inflexibles out there and depending on how accurate I want it to be I may do a conversion to Collosus or a similar ship. One day...
Keep us up to date with your progress. :-))
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Yes, I have been wondering how you are doing Bob. I hope you are alright?
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Nick,
Slightly off topic but if you have an Infelxible hull why not build her with the full masting - full ship rig on two masts rather than the cut down masting in the standard model. This would make a very real difference.
Cheers
Geoff
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Hi Geoff
That’s entirely possible, I do have a good quality photo of her in her original rig so perhaps is the way to go. All other options are a bit difficult to pull of due to different lengths and beams.
I’ve got some plans to work with but I’m going to finish off my other projects before I start another!
I promise... this time %%
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I’ve got some plans to work with but I’m going to finish off my other projects before I start another!
Flying bacon again !
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Agin' and Court are still on hold at the moment. I need to rewire the forward (Agin') electronics and remount their boxes before I can get on with the (fragile) external detailing work. C-3PO still has most of the aft (Court) electronics, and I understand is considering some significant upgrades in a couple of months time. I am reluctant to proceed until after this design review. ie: it could possibly become more compact. I also need to test the steppers rotating to ensure I have them on the turret centrelines.
I do occasionally sail the conjoined hull halves (designated Agincourt) as the steering / propulsion/ ballasting is now optimum following post -Wicksteed modifications. It also had a trip to Deans.
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Good news Bob. You are getting the best of both worlds, testing the ship and learning her sailing quirks and getting up to the minute technology for her!
I can't wait to see how things are going and wish you and yours well.
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Thank you Ian. Positive as always O0
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HMS Agincourt - TARGET update
So this has been dorment for a while from my side.....lots of other interesting avenues to explore that have grabbed my limited play time
Currently writing my own model submarine operating system which has lots of whistles and bells in concept - but when finished may just have the bells as I think I have been over optimistic in my specification - time will tell.
So I will be sending Bob as small circuit that allows him to move the turret steppers to check/ensure they don't hit the superstructure and also a servo fire sequence that will allow him to make sure we have got the correct movement of the servo to suck/spit the smoke fluid
C-3PO
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Many thanks C-3PO. Greatly appreciated.
I did say this was going to be a long project, but I do take HMS Agin-court sailing, like today in fact. A perfect day for sailing anything (without sails). Well, here she is at Black Park Lake this morning in beautiful sunshine, if a tad cold.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-Qnh3xHp/0/f775b25a/M/jan-sailin-1-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-Qnh3xHp/A)
Moving the beast, albeit in two halves, leaves too much vulnerable to handling damage at the moment.
This weekend I made up a wooden guard to protect the oversized rudder whilst in transit
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-Kz9DXvL/0/e517b7b8/M/rudder-guard-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-Kz9DXvL/A)
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Stepper Tester & Servo Fire Control Board
Bob - this will be in the post on Monday - https://youtu.be/IHdOx2WFrhM
(https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/01/26/TargetTester.jpg)
C-3PO
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Wow !! that looks awesome C-3PO. Many thanks.
If I am following the video clip correctly one cable is for the stepper motor, the 3 core one connects to the pump servo, and the read and black leads are DC power. The push buttons manual controls. Neat
It will be a real boon being able to "manually" turn the steppers to ensure the mountings are concentric with the fixed barbettes. Also that the pump servo operates to the required angles. Previously I had tested them using a little servo tester and battery, but that did not replicate how the software would operate them.
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Turret Testing
On the Saturday of Mayhem 2018 we had not finished commissioning all the Arduino’s, especially in the after section of the hull. All the aft part had was the Receiver Arduino and the Compass. This made testing the turrets, especially the 4 aftermost, highly difficult. The turrets run on precision stepper motors rather than just servos or motors.
As you can see from the photo the 12 inch turrets were incredibly tightly packed, and with very limited clearance for wiring between the rotating turret cylinder and the fixed barbettes. Getting the steppers exactly concentric was key to preventing sticking or jamming.
Thanks again to C-3PO, who had developed the Arduino control system, in producing an Arduino stepper motor test board.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-4T7LHpJ/0/5d721781/M/turret-testing-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-4T7LHpJ/A)
The test board was a real boon in identifying the mechanical problems so that I could solve them. Some adjustments to aid concentricity were made, including re-aligning the stepper motor mounting brackets. Next problem was vertical alignment. I had to raise the superfiring mount by 2 mm, and also file off the sighting hoods from the adjacent deck level mountings to give more clearance.
C-3PO’s test board also tests the action of the servos that pump the fog fluid through the thermistor heaters and out through the gun barrels.
https://youtu.be/IHdOx2WFrhM (https://youtu.be/IHdOx2WFrhM)
The rear hull (HMS ‘Court) now has its turrets turning effectively. I shall now use the test board to check out the three turrets in the forward half (HMS Agin’)
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Hooray the 2019 Agincourt project season has begun :-)) It is good to see you back and whittling again Bob. The hull looks good especially with her name emblazoned on the stern, and the turrets are adding to that feeling that progress is being steadily made.
I cannot deny my childlike glee at seeing all those coloured buttons CPO has put on the tester system!!
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Excellent work, hopefully we will see a fully functional TARGET system at Wicksteed this year. You and C3PO keep up the good work. :-))
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perhaps we need a target like a few years back!
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I have no knowledge of big navy guns firing.
If all 7 guns on HMS Agincourt where fired at the "same time" presumably they would be spaced out over a short timeframe?
Something like - https://soundcloud.com/user-477761400/7guns2 (https://soundcloud.com/user-477761400/7guns2)
Any feedback would be much appreciated
Regards
C-3PO
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As far as I know Agincourt had not yet had her Dreyfus Fire Control system fitted, even by Jutland.
The "Fire" command was manually sent to each turret simultaneously, but it required someone in the turret watching for it to then operate the Fire mechanism. I would guess there could be up to two seconds delay before the guns went off. Action / reaction time. It would almost certainly not have been exactly simultaneous across all seven turrets, although a well drilled crew could get fairly close to optimum including reaction time.
Not very definitive I am afraid.
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It is all literally a moving feast!
Agincourt is recorded as firing 14 gun broadsides at Jutland just to show it could be done! Observers said it looked as if the ship had blown up.
However I am reading John Brooks' account of the Battle of Jutland at the moment and there is a lot of interesting and technical stuff including gunnery operation procedures.
Gunnery control evolved throughout WW1 and different ships were fitted with different marks of control systems at any given time. Under full director control the gunnery officer could pull a trigger to fire as many guns as he chose simultaneously, salvoes or broadsides etc. But the less automated systems fitted in many ships relied upon individual turrets 'laying' their guns by following pointers for direction and elevation from the central transmitting station, waiting for the fire gong and then firing as their sights 'came on' with the roll of the ship which would give the effect of 'ripple' firing within a couple of seconds or so. I think the Germans had something very similar.
Personally for modelling visual effect I think that a rapid ripple of fire would look most effective but you have the choice!
At Jutland, Agincourt was one of two British dreadnoughts not to have been fitted with a director so presumably placed more reliance on individual turret gunlayers.
It is a complicated subject and more technical than you might think but for modelling purposes it probably doesn't matter much whether you go for simultaneous or ripple firing. Most people won't notice, they will be too impressed with the fact that the model fires at all!
Colin
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Most people won't notice, they will be too impressed with the fact that the model fires at all!
Colin
Thanks Colin - and if it all goes to plan observers will feel Bob's HMS Agincourt firing - literally!
C-3PO
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Thanks Colin - and if it all goes to plan observers will feel Bob's HMS Agincourt firing - literally!
C-3PO
If everyone suddenly jumps, saying "What the **** was that !!! "then objective achieved. %%
There may even be a slight pause between the smoke and flash to when the sound reaches observers.
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If everyone suddenly jumps, saying "What the **** was that !!! "then objective achieved.
Just as long as it's due to the audio effects and not the pain of pellets penetrating the skin...
Colin
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For anyone who is particulary interested there is a very good book "Dreadnought Gunnery and the Battle of Jutland". Its a thesis and quite technical but its a very interesting book as it explains in great detail the enormous practical difficulties that were encountered to produce a working system including the physical manufacture of very expensive and precise equipment.
It is not necessarily realised that any fire control solution is made up of many independent elements any one of which is open to error. The main issues were range and deflection and rate of change or range:
Range is obvious but how do you measure it in a few seconds at an indistinct target and what is the error rate. Ships would typically use multiple rangefinders and use an aggregate number then rely on observation for the fall of shot and correct up, down, left, right.
Deflection - means the rate of aim ahead as at long range shells would take 30 to 60 seconds to arive so you don't aim at the target but where you calculate it will be in a future time.
There is also the rate of change of range to be calculated - Evershed equipment was used - basically how fast is the enemy closing or retreating.
It also debunks the oft repeated wisdom that the Pollen equipment was much better than the Dreyer equipment. There were in fact many similarities and the thresis brioadley comes ouy in favoutr of the Dreyer system.
Director control was generally the better system but independent controll was excellent too and could be very effective in the right circumstances so most ships actually used a combination of both systems dependent on operational circumstances of the action as to which was best.
Independent fire could give a higher rate of fire than director control under cirtain circumstances but with director gear all guns were fired at exactly the same time to minimise individual errors from the gunlayers. Continuious aim had been developed to a high level of sophistication such that big guns gould be "fixed" on the target irrespective of the roll, pitch and yaw rates.
Agincourt would and did fire full 14 gun salvo's at Jutland. References to ripple firing really applies to second ww2 triple turrets where there was a fraction of a second delay as the barrels were too close together such as the flight of one shell could affect its neighbour. Otherwise riffle firing only spreads the salvo.
Typically a five turret ship would fire 50% at a time. Reloading took about 30 seconds (2 rounds a minuite per gun) so if you fire a full broadside you can't fire again for 30 seconds but if you fire half broadsides you can fire every 15 seconds.
We also need to consider the light and visibility were key ingredients and these are very variable depending on where the sun is so sometimes you can see the enemy but they can't see you and vice versa.
Its an enormously complex area - for example how to you move a 300 ton turret one half of one degree without overshooting - again director fire put all turrets onto the same target which otherwise in the smoke and confusion of battle is not certain.
Apparently gunnery drill aimed to straddle a ship rather than hit it - sounds odd but at 15,000 yards if you fire five guns and see two splashes short chances are the rest hit or went over the problem is you can't see the "overs" due to smoke gunfire and the splashes of the shorts - a 12" gun makes a 200 foort splash!
I find it a fascinating subject but sometimes you need to be a university professor to understand the maths and dynamics.
Cheers
Geoff
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A capital ship at 15000 yards is about half the size of a 5p piece held at arm's length. In the twenty seconds or so for a shell to travel that distance, the ship moves around about one hull-length.
Factor in a rolling and pitching platform, smoke, atmospheric clarity (or the lack of it), optical estimates of range, bearing and speed...it's maybe no wonder "Agincourt fired 144 twelve-inch shells and 111 six-inch shells during the battle [of Jutland], although she is not known to have hit anything."
Andy
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In this case all we are "firing" is bursts of evaporated fog fluid and flashing LED's. The problem to solve is approximately what is the average time dispersal of seven turrets each receiving a command to fire and the collective effect of the guns going off when independently activated from inside each turret.
Remember that no firing control table was fitted to HMS Agincourt. As Geoff so eloquently described the collation of many items of data was tough enough to achieve with such as system, without it the computation problem was even harder.
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Dr Ian's advice is to concentrate on getting twelve guns to fire in as visually effective way as vaporised fluid will allow and have fun sailing and firing at the enemy. By rights, Bob should be controlling all seven turrets independently, but that is impractical, so the Arduino system will make the gunnery control more effective than it was on Agincourt in real life!
Even without turrets or superstructure Agincourt looked pretty damn good on the water last year and so what ever level of control you get Bob and Chris, it will be cutting edge :-))
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I have just donated bodily parts to RS components in exchange for a replacement soldering station.
I noticed last night that the relay on the control board for turret number one was not switching off - so I decided to investigate and eventually decided to pull it's power supply plug which with no surprise powered it down. When I reconnected it I stupidly make a mistake with the little power plug and sent 12v directly to the Arduino's heart which even though no blue smoke it decided it was going to throw it's toys out of the pram.
There were 7 turret control boards in existence - 3 installed into Bob's HMS Agincourt last year and 4 left with me so I could finish writing the code.
We need to install these shortly into HMS Agincourt but I now find myself one short so mass production will shortly start to make another batch to ensure HMS Agincourt can do us proud.
I started this process only to give up when my current soldering station gave up. - They say things come in three's - I am a little uncomfortable as to what's next...
Dr Ian - 12 months down the road and more knowledge under my belt, whilst not ready to rock and roll, Bob could indeed control independently each turret with a single finger!!!
PS Who's Chris :)
Regards
C-3PO _._
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I forget names readily and got it into my head that you were Chris! Sorry :((
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That's ok Dave
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Oh dear C-3PO {:-{
This project is becoming as protracted and apparently complex as building the LIGO interferometer that recently discovered gravity waves. I totally admire, and understand, your persistence in pursuing this goal. I have no doubt you will succeed :-))
The real problem could come after people see it all working at Wicksteed Park, and want such a system on board their own turreted warship. You could get inundated with requests. I only hope that my mechanical aspects of the turret movements are up to the job. Even on a vessel of these dimensions its all a very close fit.
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Hi Bob,
For me it’s been a very interesting project as it has presented me with many technical software challenges which are a bit like an assault course – you need to solve one before you can progress to the next. Some of these can take days or weeks to resolve. Attacking the problem with as much creativity and logic and you can muster is for me very stimulating and satisfying.
I am a firm believer that to learn something like Arduino coding you need a “real world” task that you want to solve, something real on your work bench that you can touch and feel and throw across the room when it doesn’t work – it certainly stimulates the grey cells as you turn a problem over in your head.
Reading books or watching online video whilst these are great learning resources – nothing beats getting your hands dirty.
Under the hood of the project there is some really clever stuff, individual aspects not unique and done by others before but perhaps unique when bolted together as I have
And I have a solution for post Wicksteed Park requests - https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,61665.msg661179.html#msg661179
C-3PO
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Curiously with ID I operate all the "fire" servo's at the same time albeit A&B and then Q,X & Y or on different channels but in video footage despite Q,X & Y being operated at the sme time there is a daisy chain effect and they fire in that order with a tiny gap between each one. Its only really visible on video. I suspect the issue is that I'm controlling three servo's using "Y" leads but I assumed the signal would be recieved at the same time! Strange.
Geoff
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Hi Geoff,
I trust you will be at Wicksteed Park this year with ID?
It's all interesting stuff. One of the problems of living a 100 miles or so from Bob is that I am working in the dark some of the time not having access to the boat itself.
I have made things fully configurable so assuming the turret is in a free to fire zone when the "fire" switch is pressed the following settings are used (they can be amended/tweeked)
There is a time delay between the LED being triggered and the servo pump being operated
There is a ten row x seven column lookup table of timings for individual 'turret' firing timings- each time the fire command is issued a random selection of the 10 sequences is chosen and used
There is a time delay setting for the individual gun turret audio track to be played
I think you could spend hours refining this ....
C-3PO
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I love the concept of your randomly selected 10 x 7 lookup table, as this closely replicates the slightly variable time delays in each turret between command receipt and action instigated. A turret commanders reaction time could vary at each broadside. It also avoids any visible repletion sequences.
A small time delay will also occur between the almost instant flash with smoke and the sound effect reaching an observer on shore. The flash being effectively instant, with the ship at a scale half kilometre offshore the sound could take roughly 1.5 seconds.
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So the universe has proven the rule holds true - bad things come in threes
Got back from the kennels this afternoon with my 2 dogs and my computer would not wake up.
After about an hour of increased heart rate I eventually tracked down that the graphics card has died - bad thing number three!!!
C-3PO
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At least its not a part for a nabubian royal cruiser ok2 %) (for those wondering if I have lost the plot - look under C-3PO's graphic on the left)
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HMS AGINCOURT
First fire in anger - one giant step forward - still some small ones to be taken - Well done Bob
https://youtu.be/nqpJotasUKA (https://youtu.be/nqpJotasUKA)
(https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2019/05/16/Smokin.jpg)
C-3PO
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Looks brilliant, especially in slow motion. When all seven turrets are operational it’ll look unbelievable.
I’ll have to get a move on with my turrets, I’m so far behind!
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Many thanks C-3PO. An enjoyable (but long) day up near Kettering.
With great appreciation for all your valued assistance on this long project.
We finally have all Arduino boxes installed. Today was mainly fitting and wiring up the aft half of the hull.
A few issues still to resolve. A couple of turrets sticking on rotation, partly due to end of servo connector falling right where it is most likely to jam turret. I had intended to add some photos of the neat new wiring methods, but SmugMug suddenly no longer supports Microsoft Explorer, and Chrome refuses to access SmugMug.
At least you can see from C-3PO's video the gunfire effect is totally awesome O0
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Finally got Chrome to access the photo site. IMHO Chrome is naff and cack handed compared with IE10.
Anyway, some photos:
First is preparatory work on updating the front end. Fitting new board mounting arrangement and tidying the wiring.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-W7VR2Mz/0/85fa39f7/M/fitted-boxes-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-W7VR2Mz/A)
Next is work yesterday by C-3PO mounting and wiring boards into the aft end using the new box mountings. As you can see space is very tight despite the size of the hull.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-qmN2Jz9/0/5edd5054/M/Aft-wiring-detail%2Cjpg-M.jpg) (https://bobkiralfy.smugmug.com/HMS-Agincourt/i-qmN2Jz9/A)
Uploaded software updates to the previously fitted boards. This is the first time that all boards have been fitted. Next up was a test firing of a gun in his garden, to test and validate the software for thermistor control and servo-pump operation. As you can see from his video from yesterday - highly effective :-))
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Lots of lessons learnt...
And apologies to Geoff for not crediting him in the original post as the gun smoke creation technology in the video is entirely his creation as he used on his Iron Duke.
The TARGET system is simply controlling the fog fluid servo pump :)
C-3PO
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Bob,
I seem to recall you are planning on having Agincourt at MBM on Satirday, right as I also plan to bring ID Satirday.
Cheers
Geoff
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Geoff,
I was planning to arrive on Saturday, shortly after 10AM. I am still having a little trouble with some turrets sticking. A mechanical issue, nothing to do with 3-CPO's electronics which all tested out superbly on Wednesday. Not sure if my issue will be resolved by Saturday, time is getting short, but the actual gunfire is awesome, thanks to your servo pump / thermistor system. Many thanks.
see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqpJotasUKA&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqpJotasUKA&feature=youtu.be)
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HMS Agincourt goes to Mayhem
Another key milestone in this long and complex project was achieved at Wicksteed Park on Saturday. The development of C-3PO’s TARGET bearing control system took a big step forwards on Wednesday when the electronics were fitted and initialised in the front half of the hull. Previously only the rear half had been fitted out. At the same time the software in the existing Arduino units was updated to match the latest versions.
A long but pleasant day near Kettering installing got as far as test firing the aft turrets in C-3PO’s garden. We didn’t quite have time to test fire the guns in the other hull or finish integrating it all together with Wicksteed Mayhem only three days away.
I knew I had a problem with some turrets mechanically “sticking”, but by then knew it was the pump servo lead connectors catching in the top of the barbette, where spare was very tight. Replacement servos with very long leads arrived, but not in time to fit them for Mayhem.
First run on the Mayhem lake had to be aborted when I realised I had forgotten to add fog fluid to the barbette reservoirs. A small “kick myself” moment. Guns will not fire without ammo !
After that we did had gun fire and a lot of smoke with flashing orange LED’s, but not from all guns. Still some work to do, although I am sure this is a minor electrical bug that will be resolved, not a major issue.
The real fun part was in C-3PO’s hidden high power sound system that exactly replicated the sequence of guns as they fired with a slight time delay to add realism. I am told you could clearly hear it the other end of the lake. As I am sure that anyone who has operated sound from a boat it becomes inaudible a couple of meters away. Very low frequency gun sounds only make that worse as it involves shifting a lot of air.
All in all quite a successful day, even with a few issues still to sort out. We at least were able to exchange gunfire with Geoff’s HMS Iron Duke. HMS Agincourt moves another key stage closer to combining Geoff’s gun fire design with C-3PO’s TARGET automatic target bearing control system.
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I look forward to seeing some footage of this in due course Bob! I am very pleased that all your and C3's hard work is finally paying off. All being well, niggles will be un niggled and you can concentrate on the details etc.
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The noise from C3PO's speaker was literally like thunder. Very effective.
Colin