Model Boat Mayhem - Forum

Dry Dock / Shipyard: Builds & Questions => Steam => Topic started by: jpdenver on September 08, 2017, 03:41:40 AM

Title: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: jpdenver on September 08, 2017, 03:41:40 AM
Greetings from this side of the pond.
One thing about being in Colorado is that we do not get hit by hurricanes!

I hope that those mayhemers located down in the islands are safe from Irene.

Now to business -

I built a D10 last year, and then this year I have been adding the reversing gear.
I read very carefully the thread from George, and used his flat linkage setup.
It worked out pretty well.

I have still to finish up the linkage, since it will be going in a boat, I may not use the
handle provided, instead I will be making up my own.

I have attached a picture.

The issue I am having is that I think I am getting "blow-by"

First, I followed the plans and put the three oil grooves on the pistons rather than a
ring.  I did not have any rings to use.  I am using air for the moment, and
only running for less than a minute.  I squirted in some oil, and I see a little
dripping from the exhaust, so I think I should have adequate  lubrication.

But I get a steady stream of air out the exhaust, on very low pressure,
once the engine starts, the stream continues but also puffs like I would
normally expect. 

So - I started looking at o-rings, and I am curious about what size
I should get.  I need to reverse engineer as the pistons and cylinders are
already done. 

I have found a good source I think - not the local DYI store but instead:

http://www.theoringstore.com/index.php?main_page=index 

Also what type is favored? PTFE? Silicone? other?
What size cross-section?  1/16", 1/8"

All advice is appreciated.

Thanks,
Jim Pope
Denver, Colorado





Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: derekwarner_decoy on September 08, 2017, 05:07:33 AM
Morning Jim......that reversing gear looks fine O0

With respect to O-Ring selection, both VITON and Silicone elastomer are technically rated by the manufactures to 200 degrees C, however above say 180 degrees C +, both suffer from greatly reduced mechanical strength and are really only suitable for static applications at these temperatures

Your 3 Bar boiler rating will provide steam at ~~ 143 degrees C, so either elastomer will be suitable in the dynamic piston application, they are also both fully compatible with steam and gear oils so there are no issues here

{burnt VITON elastomer carries the MSDS warning in the creation of hydrofluoric acid, however careful use should never create such a scenario}

Both VITON and Silicone elastomer O-Rings are usually available in 70 Duro and are easily stretched over a piston to the O-Ring groove. The O-Ring groove geometry and dimensions should be as per the manufacturers specification and relative to the bore dimension

A 1/8" section O-Ring when pressure energised and deformed will present a longer friction sealing lip that a 1/16" O-Ring

PTFE elastomer is certainly suitable for the above temperatures, however the elastomer has no memory so the piston requires to be a two piece construction to enable installation. The alternative to this is expanding and resizing cones & bushes ....more expense for a one [1] off build

Virgin PTFE has  a very low mechanical strength, so manufactures add fillers to improve or increase strength and resistance to extrusion. It can be difficult to understand or obtain a round bar of PTFE with a hardness in the range of 70 to 90 Duro

Come back with the actual cylinder bore diameter &  the piston diameters & height........from there we could look at an O-Ring nomination

Derek 
Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: rhavrane on September 08, 2017, 07:20:35 AM
Bonjour Jim,


Alternative 2 : Teflon sefment http://www.vapeuretmodelesavapeur.com/trucs/index.html#segment
Alternative 3 : Pston with Teflon cup http://www.vapeuretmodelesavapeur.com/piston/index.html
Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: pendlesteam on September 08, 2017, 09:27:02 AM
Ive built quite a few engines and dont favour O rings in pistons for the simple fact that they offer very little in the way of abrasive resistance to wear and simply are not designed for this application. For any piston under 1" dia I have always used graphite yarn, its easy to fit, cheap and gives a good seal, made all the better by hot steam. The width and depth of the 'ring' groove is not critical and I know of locos which have run every weekend for 30 years with the same packing in them. And yet no one seems to have mentioned it? My experience is from high speed engines fitted to model locos where a strip down can be a mammoth task (inside twin pistons for example) so reliability is paramount. Just a thought....
Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: aeronut on September 08, 2017, 01:00:49 PM
I would only add that it's probably worth getting the whole lot up to working temperature on steam before you do anything else.  You may well find that blowby is greatly reduced when all up to temp.
Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: IanJ on September 08, 2017, 06:36:36 PM
Hi' Interesting comment from 'Pendlesteam' regards graphite yarn to seal pistons. I saw this specified on a drawing for a small static steam engine only recently. My only experience of graphite yarn is as gland packing in stuffing boxes, so was about to ask for others opinions regards this application. How do you fit it? I assume it is simply wrapped around the groove then the piston inserted into the bore. How much needs to 'packed in'?


Ian
Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: pendlesteam on September 08, 2017, 06:46:17 PM
Hi Ian. To elaborate...Graphite yarn comes in different sizes ranging from a type of thin string right up to  1/2" square in cross section. If you were to buy 1/8" square you simply machine your ring groove a tad over 1/8" wide and a tad under 1/8" deep. You splice the cord at 45 degrees each end being sure it is a good overlap and simply squash it into the groove. Slightly Chamfer the piston bore end to help the packing into the bore and its done. It is easy and very long lasting.
Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: IanJ on September 08, 2017, 06:58:09 PM
Hi, Thanks for reply. Simple when it's explained. Are you able to suggest a supplier of square section packing that small. Many many years ago industry had experience of packing of I/4" and much greater for all sorts of applications such as valve stems, pump glands, etc. but never had the need to use any thing that small.
Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: pendlesteam on September 08, 2017, 07:13:00 PM
It and teflon yarn which is just as good are on ebay

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-16-square-teflon-coated-yarn-2ft-length-live-steam-/391865301442?hash=item5b3cfdf9c2:g:3owAAOSwDmtZlF-F (http://http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-16-square-teflon-coated-yarn-2ft-length-live-steam-/391865301442?hash=item5b3cfdf9c2:g:3owAAOSwDmtZlF-F)

and

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-16-square-graphite-yarn-1ft-length-quality-James-Walker-live-steam-/391880858266?hash=item5b3deb5a9a:g:a2kAAOSwdGFYsZ29 (http://http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-16-square-graphite-yarn-1ft-length-quality-James-Walker-live-steam-/391880858266?hash=item5b3deb5a9a:g:a2kAAOSwdGFYsZ29)

(http://http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-16-square-graphite-yarn-1ft-length-quality-James-Walker-live-steam-/391880858266?hash=item5b3deb5a9a:g:a2kAAOSwdGFYsZ29)

(http://http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-16-square-graphite-yarn-1ft-length-quality-James-Walker-live-steam-/391880858266?hash=item5b3deb5a9a:g:a2kAAOSwdGFYsZ29)
Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: jpdenver on September 10, 2017, 03:30:33 AM
Thanks for all the input.

I opened the heads and found they have dried out.
Obviously the cause of my blow-by.
Since the engine has never run on steam yet, and was sitting on the shelf
for a while, it does not really surprise me.  I added some steam oil and sealed it back up.

It started to act better, still under air, but ran well at low pressure - both directions.

Next I will finish up a steam plant - and see if heating it up increases the seals.

I made a movie:

https://youtu.be/-yALyraHIds 

There are a few points that bind, so a little some fine file work is in order.

I'll post some more when I get it hooked up to live steam.
Then I can evaluate if I need to go the o-ring, graphite route.

Thanks for reading.

Jim Pope
Denver, CO
USA

Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: pendlesteam on September 10, 2017, 10:12:38 AM
Hi Jim
Im afraid that when it all gets hot the blowby will get worse. Might be worth having a look at a little video I made yesterday with a D10 on one of my boilers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzLDGuBCNN8 (http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzLDGuBCNN8)
Might inspire you (not that you need inspiring!)
Nigel
Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: steamboatmodel on September 10, 2017, 04:49:29 PM

Hi Jim,
Just remember that when you run a steam engine on air, it is not a steam engine, but an air engine and needs Air Tool Oil. One of the fellows in the Toronto Model Engineer Society builds excellent model engine and mounts them on display cases that have a Filter Regulator Lubricator unit in the base. He plugs in the air and can set the speed with the regulator and knows that it is getting lubrication.
Regards,
Gerald.
Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: jpdenver on September 11, 2017, 03:05:10 AM
Thanks everyone.

So I am moving on to assembling a steam plant.

First, I smoothed out a couple of surfaces, making the shifting
smoother.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-Ntc8jviAU
This is the result.


Then I got out one of my hulls, which had an undersized twin
and pulled it's plant.

I will have to remove the soleplate and put together some new
mounting rails. But it may work pretty well.

More to come, I will fire it up later this week.

Regards,
Jim Pope
Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: rhavrane on September 11, 2017, 08:32:55 PM
Bonjour James,
Nice steam plant indeed, I hope the burner will be powerful enough to provide a 2 bars steam to your greedy blue D10.
Do you plan to install a water feed pump later ?
Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: jpdenver on September 11, 2017, 09:12:58 PM
Raphael,

The Boiler is a Maccsteam - a Full Liter capacity.  The Gas tank will run over an Hour.
At 40 PSI - I get about 35 Min to a tank - without any additional.

If you check the pics above - you will see the side tanks in the boat -
these are for feed-water, just not hooked in yet. I do not have room for
the Stuart pump, so I may have to sneak in an electric one.

I ran the engine on steam - and have some issues:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3fbX9VyQiA

1.  The Blow-By is very evident.  Time to look at Rings I guess.
2.  I have some sputters on the input and exhaust manifolds - so some gasket goop is called for.
3.  One of my glad nuts is coming loose.   When it runs itself back out, It jams against the piston rod and seizes the engine.
    I know why - I only had a pipe-thread tap and die, so it is tapered.  I think if I wind some teflon tape on it I should tighten up and not effect
   the way the graphite is packed.

Any good ideas are welcome.

Regards to all,
Jim Pope

Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: jpdenver on September 12, 2017, 12:27:16 AM
To Nigel at Pendlesteam,
About Graphite Cord.

I rummaged in my accumulation of crap, and found two types.

Type 1 -
Is very smooth, but does not have any long strands in it so there is no tensile strength.
Seems to be made for packing. 

Type 2 - is a bit left over from the D10 kit.  Is obviously a string, with graphite.
Lots of tug and pull - tensile strength.

So which to use?

Your thoughts?

Thanks,
Jim



Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: ooyah/2 on September 12, 2017, 12:26:30 PM
To Nigel at Pendlesteam,
About Graphite Cord.

I rummaged in my accumulation of crap, and found two types.

Type 1 -
Is very smooth, but does not have any long strands in it so there is no tensile strength.
Seems to be made for packing. 

Type 2 - is a bit left over from the D10 kit.  Is obviously a string, with graphite.
Lots of tug and pull - tensile strength.

So which to use?

Your thoughts?

Thanks,
Jim


Hi Jim.


Just back from a 3- day trip to Yorkshire.


Use the graphite that came with the D10 kit.


Contrary to the general opinion about "O" rings I use nothing else but them and have done so for the past 20 odd years, fitting them to many engines for friends and club mates they work very well with a long life as long as you make the grooves to the "O" in manufacturers dimensions.
I believe that the Silicone "O" rings are hard to come by in the States  so Stuart's graphite packing will do fine.


Your engine looks great , I would check that the Slide valves are free floating it's the steam pressure that holds them down and you may have marked the faces which could caused the blow back by running the engine dry on air and they may need another  polish.
When you run on steam remember to use a good quality steam oil in the lubricator, the needle valve only needs to be opened a crack to get oil into the cylinders.
I see too many people opening the needle valve too far and using excess oil which isn't required.
  George.


George.
Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: xrad on September 12, 2017, 09:59:29 PM
O rings on my PM research #8 engine, runs like a champ. Small length pistons with large O ring groove.
Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: jpdenver on September 13, 2017, 03:14:07 AM
So it looks like we have two (maybe three) camps.

1.  O-Rings

2.  Graphite

(3) - oil grooves


Well - I tried the oil grooves.  I am willing to bet that my inexperience as a machinist added to the
amount of error in the final alignment.

Result - Well, it ran, but leaked.

So - Since I had some Graphite cord, I decided to try that. 
The graphite cord I had was nominally 1/16 in diameter.
So I removed the pistons, quite a pain - so I think I will work up some type of "wrench" like I saw on another build.
Then I expanded one of the Oil grooves to 1/16 wide and just a little less than that deep.
Then I smashed the cord into it and I will see how that goes, once I remember how it all goes back together.
I could not get just the piston out, so I needed to just about take the whole thing apart.

I guess I will get more practice on timing a Twin Slide valve. - Have to put it back together.

In the event that the graphite does not do the task, I can widen the groove and put in an o-ring.

More to come,

Thanks for the input.

Jim Pope
Denver





Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: rhavrane on September 13, 2017, 07:38:34 AM
Bonjour James,
You have forgotten the Teflon option (done successfuly on one of my D10)  ok2
(http://pimg.imagesia.com/fichiers/1eu/d10-segment3_imagesia-com_1eudv_small.jpg) (http://imagesia.com/d10-segment3_1eudv)


(http://pimg.imagesia.com/fichiers/1eu/d10-segment4_imagesia-com_1eudw_small.jpg) (http://imagesia.com/d10-segment4_1eudw)


(http://pimg.imagesia.com/fichiers/1eu/d10-segment5_imagesia-com_1eudu_small.jpg) (http://imagesia.com/d10-segment5_1eudu)


 :-))
(http://imagesia.com/d10-segment3_1eudv)
(http://imagesia.com/d10-segment3_1eudv)
Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: ooyah/2 on September 13, 2017, 12:36:31 PM
Jim,
If you make a key to unscrew the piston and rod at the same time it saves so much time and the timing need not be altered.


Any time that I make an engine I always make a key to suit to unscrew the piston and rod, I also put some Loctite 603 on the end of the rod that goes into the piston to stop any chance of it unscrewing.


When you make the piston and thread it for the rod when assembling put some Loctite 243 on the screw as it goes into the Cross head slide, also the rod at the Cross head slide make a very small taper with a file to the 1/8" dia rod  which allows you to get the rod thro' the packing gland without disturbing it too much.


George.


Also have a look at this post on the Machining of a D!0 on this forum. 
[size=0px]« [/size][/size][size=0px]Reply #8 on:[/size][/size][size=0px] December 20, 2014, 08:47:29 PM »[/size]


Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: steamboatmodel on September 13, 2017, 03:08:24 PM

So it looks like we have two (maybe three) camps.

1.  O-Rings

2.  Graphite

(3) - oil grooves


Well - I tried the oil grooves.  I am willing to bet that my inexperience as a machinist added to the
amount of error in the final alignment.

Result - Well, it ran, but leaked.

So - Since I had some Graphite cord, I decided to try that. 
The graphite cord I had was nominally 1/16 in diameter.
So I removed the pistons, quite a pain - so I think I will work up some type of "wrench" like I saw on another build.
Then I expanded one of the Oil grooves to 1/16 wide and just a little less than that deep.
Then I smashed the cord into it and I will see how that goes, once I remember how it all goes back together.
I could not get just the piston out, so I needed to just about take the whole thing apart.

I guess I will get more practice on timing a Twin Slide valve. - Have to put it back together.

In the event that the graphite does not do the task, I can widen the groove and put in an o-ring.

More to come,

Thanks for the input.

Jim Pope
Denver
I would change the first category to Piston Rings, with sub category's of material;
Iron
Teflon
O-rings various materials.
All of which have pro and cons.
I have tried them all except Teflon O-rings. No favorite sometimes it is just what I have available, have even used Teflon plumbers string from the hardware store.
Regards,
Gerald.
Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: jpdenver on September 13, 2017, 03:28:26 PM
Raphael -
You commented on my youtube post - My definition of "BlowBy" is that the air/steam is escaping without doing it's work.
about 50% or more seems to be just coming out of the exhaust.  I thought it was getting by the piston, but as George said, it
might be that it is getting past the slide valve.

Oh- and I was putting the teflon option in the same category as the silicone.  I saw both as an o-ring.

George -
On your key the little studs look long - do the holes go all the way thru the piston? 
I would not think so - but just checking.

I will look at the slide valve to see if it needs any polishing, and I may adopt your
use of a grub screw as well, this will allow me to adjust the clearances and contact with the
faces.  More experimentation is needed. More knowledge to absorb.

Gerald - Right you are -
The Iron rings are certainly primary - again I was using the term o-ring loosely.
(Loose Lips Sink Ships?)

Anyway - I am attempting Graphite first. 

To All -

I am learning a lot about my sloppiness as a machinist! 
Building a one-off allows one to "make it fit right" but then you find out that the "fit" effects another
part, and you have to go back and fiddle again. 

More to come - I guess - I hope that others may learn from my minor mishaps.
I have no "fear of foolishness" any more -
not with 6 granddaughters wanting to have a "princess tea party" most of the time!

Cheers!,
Jim
Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: ooyah/2 on September 13, 2017, 04:04:20 PM
Hi Jim,
No the pins don't go thro' the piston, I make them approx 3/16" long and the brass boss that they are fitted into is a clearance fit, with the holes in the piston about 1/8" deep.


Just enough to allow you to unscrew the piston and rod from the Cross head.


Another method is to mill a slot on the piston head to take a screw driver, I prefer the other method described as it doesn't interfere with the top of the piston rod.


I tell you Jim if I had granddaughters a Princes Tea party would take precedence to any machining, count yourself a Blest guy.


George.
Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: steamboatmodel on September 13, 2017, 04:36:39 PM

Hi Jim,
"I am learning a lot about my sloppiness as a machinist! 
Building a one-off allows one to "make it fit right" but then you find out that the "fit" effects another
part, and you have to go back and fiddle again."
I think that comes under Fudge to fit, Paint to Match" category, I would hate to admit how many times we used that when I was working due to sloppy tolerances. Enjoy the Tea Parties, I am still waiting for my offspring to provide Grandchildren.
Regards,
Gerald.
Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: jpdenver on September 14, 2017, 04:27:02 AM
Hello all -

I spent the day re-assembling and studying the linkages of the parts in the slide valves.
What I discovered was that my fudging had caused the top of the slide valve "post"
(the drawing is out in the shop and I am too tired to go get the correct part name)
to pull out of the top hole, thus letting the slide wobble around, and then the incoming
gas escaped.

See the Pic.

The solution was to fiddle - again - I needed to "lengthen" the overall combination of parts
so that the the eccentric movement was correctly controlling the slide, and also insert the
end back into the proper hole.  To do this I unscrewed the various pieces one or two revolutions to
stretch the length and allow the end to stay in the hole.

When I finished the re-assembly, and ran it on air, the exhaust "puffed" just like she should.

I'll run her on steam again tomorrow.

Regards,
Jim



Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: IanJ on September 14, 2017, 03:07:25 PM
Following this thread with interest. Can clearly see how utilising a grub screw instead of relying on a threaded valve rod would make valve timing a lot easier to perform. I am still hoping to build my 'Marcher' as the piston valve version. I note that the piston as a screwdriver slot in the top to aid with the timing adjustment. Also, one for George, could graphite string be fitted to a suitable size grove, that is that much smaller than that needed for an 'o' ring solve the seal issue?


Ian
Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: pendlesteam on September 14, 2017, 06:36:00 PM
Hi

As someone has already said, go for the scruffy graphite yarn and wrap it tightly - there should be no elasticity in the yarn. The photos of the teflon 'rings' save many words and if overlapped correctly also work very well.
Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: derekwarner_decoy on September 15, 2017, 12:56:04 AM
From an industrial perspective...and there is absolutely no reason not to adopt the same orientation or engineering principal for model work, is when making a split piston seal to adopt the Z cut approach <*<

This when installed on and over to the groove a one piece piston, is a sealing element that will be pressure energised to seal in both extension and retraction

The example here appears to be a woven Teflon square section braid......

Derek

[PS...some 50 years ago as an apprentice I remember using this Z cut approach for 50" ID leather V packing's over a large diameter wooden former, then let them soak in Neetsfoot oil for a month prior to the staggered installation of a new set of gland seal packing's to a 95/5 fluid vertical extruder press ....the continuous coil of preformed leather packing was of a diameter being taller than me O0

The real trick was to calculate {a 2 + b 2 = c 2} and mark out the distance between the two vertical lines that when cut to form the Z , would provide the packing with the actual 50" ID]
Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: jpdenver on September 15, 2017, 07:45:42 PM
To All,

When I pulled the heads after a single run on steam I noticed a little
surface rust particles. 

This tells me how important lubrication is with cast iron especially.

Raphael suggested a hole in the head to allow for squirting in a little oil for preservation.
I think this is a good idea.

So I seek an opinion of the forum:     

Which form of plug,
Photo 1 - a nice little knurled knob with fiber washer?,   or
Photo 2 - a small brass screw?

Not that I will take your advice  %)

But I am curious as to what it might be.

Thanks,
Jim







Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: pendlesteam on September 15, 2017, 07:58:31 PM
Some people fit a small drain cock to the cylinder head (as opposed to twin drain cocks) to allow condensate to be evacuated at start up and to allow oil to be input prior to the start and end of a run (as used in early full size engines). Fitting such a device would look much better and be 'authentic'. And unless you are accustomed to machining them just buy a pair, it took me weeks to get the knack of machining them so they dont leak.
Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: rhavrane on September 15, 2017, 08:17:53 PM
Bonjour James,
My last D10:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/q1YpEcSiombcyE86-7wBsluaI9LWaHuOJfVuCwNBJUcF4DepWQdv_d-KDdkLTuLgLIn3Kr_d3Cxr3WUW_0pL7190VeXzwBFkwRXg7x4jPDc3uyBPB1urW-GDzOEZsEd9k3NYgZSg26i68x-QFqbUUVJ-QGFh4s5fsi6n4ab8wHbv7bSTXhUe5h20wnCY4Wl705ijXG3sZ83egW7jr1VrY1TdpmMy_XCGXQsmVd9-FNEmE9ym73qBQbxfaBGPG-c_HgEtq5a0Vg4jsgfES5pJKmBru7ckLErAhnWymalhqe25LmWVDt-5h1b0pSJTYcDh7fEPZOrTkkkUdkuyqtzR9jXyvQXw6BTd0aqgW94SsP8pa4SxjR0KcMXnE_5gLj_OmnTo1wsUt4-opQQjtn9LZvD3wRSjQNVEMXDQIONK84dx-PeQ8VFF3G9YIw1moUBFXm5XFOAyEZEN2_53cSpnWZaVDNwbVGjhBqcElWtS11SQm7EvuGJV_qfeUKL48cnePebcWB9FhnCY_N2yRv9ZNXxzTH27RQIzrMIQcWglouXm_5fcm-d1TnXTtT5oGuuN0Qsc5ulTNQjFSrqqV9OYn8yH9hy4gGaYODff6GTLJPLiaYtsg-rmP28s-YSk95P8cStVOT4hb-G3JZRmlm0AieCvm3KE6Tig_xM=w851-h638-no)


My Cote d'Emeraude one:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/hSDDOggaz5P8zgr7ggAwMMusI9qeKQchF-hMOcVpmMnDU4oFgnkZHLD3udTzfzCR4IjcUSNkvfo-EhliFrNl32dp2XUtWyKo_OUbm8Dj12kX0b4ByltB-6UvxURE9_HmmD1qADQxjqAamdcocFgef7hLfji_1Zp2NENP8nH3DGIHGXPe4CyvZw6roZJJjS_KRLeMw6SuGkvB_rgbGrbatyi2HvnbYSUCn2VGMt7RGHA-gli3Oix8Gb9P4CpS4Ezo4BvszoeToXtEt2vT7t-jjvQXOhYx_g-Lm55i89XP9t2esXcjhicPfEnoK2DtydIJmncMb_ngcTxICNQXvADM-yJ7C1Jxsg80WHDBRMI3B3IczfcB8oMmOB1D-EQWIUqgTd1YMzx6kdJoJsw1Xp-QPtyIvOy-bw1rkIeUbFwKNhYhvBLXqpkzUe3ECKkY8IzUHIMjmuQv79uNElMCj4V2HYLNqwy7dkmgQPQY1tSscnXigUGArpVTLYzH-0mKD1S50Ef5ZaVtC0WsVEjBjXXWXWwagtQucPdyoLqCR-pPwOhvaKOOsnJcwixeoj_qHHP99gbZe1lz0PwFS1naT7baaNgKRUh4Eg0UWq0sdatZnoDM2o0KECLYwi1wG5ftZgOPBHq822B2tw7eYxncUki7sj6Q3fB7foNd8Fc=w851-h638-no)


My Jan one :
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/fzmfUhOVPnq02TO7ckoJgtGRLLKL5XvrXBx5qA-mWMlTT8BCaI9aBFPZ9mO-fZbjPoiwSxqA0ogayJOHhUE4qHfrC3X9ZHR6O1M_LmE4FuGsgmv-tH5BR8yST7_Hi-eo8Q1oogHAzcBCnwzLAj8LWyxRWSbijHmeU6D9_qPw47cDXBcUsBrdxismvl-FFh48tFfhTA5VBip1GeX5Qgwrn26fBfpM7-mdgR1_NpK0xKCpLuidH_ei0_KFCQxFkVm7xOWj5RDIyhtUBJlHFBnXKAP85ACcLYm64V4g5wPeanMtyPnIClYNphmUwgxVRkXzzsyyHRB8G_6jXAbqt5kbCSnBTa1jwvbGqYWguTjwP3AtWbrYwzsx_v6E3E38cwNUkP29Mk0LYR6EYal2aGDGeDTcbr8YYdGe2DIV6n_B1kFkE6Ti84QCwD4_bkShW2GMmC6BlUWoFaN7xrPYzfcNQhkm9AaozNrtG2z-pxDTcyHayyOWnEaUspueX0KWGV0MF3JsXcbntOO5zc4EgHE6Yo5bG52oY5VFIaG4PTz7nYEowsrML0hnZKajAiVDIGN4GFJDPeApccyDXH3GRhDBfQcCkj61lsUs4fyitEcynyWzbmModhpYxwwnNQeECGpUib9jmvsk29FgeLKAt-qHjbbGzMrYBoK145s=w851-h638-no)
Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: pendlesteam on September 16, 2017, 12:04:23 PM
Hi
Do you have any more photos of the D10 in the boat, and the boat? It looks realy good and I am looking for a design to showcase my boilers and this might be it?

Regards


Nigel
Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: rhavrane on September 16, 2017, 04:41:27 PM
Bonjour Nigel,
I hope these videos will help you :
JAN : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utYZJDJPBVg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utYZJDJPBVg)
Côte d'Emeraude : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSOSj89BY_M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSOSj89BY_M)
Ulysse 2 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSOSj89BY_M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSOSj89BY_M)
The cousin Moulay-Idris (Reeves Warrior MK3) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SLqSuZjE94 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SLqSuZjE94)
And the little brother (DN15) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fi5eNgz0AEg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fi5eNgz0AEg)
Open hull:
Marco's launch : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaZ293bphLg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaZ293bphLg)
Pascal's launch  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwwgy0qGKoA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwwgy0qGKoA)


Pictures in dedicated albums, plese find the link in my signature.


Based on my experience, the Stuart D10 is a powerful machine and huge steam consumer, even running gently at 1-2 bars and I appreciate the additional water pump which allows a smaller boiler.
Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: pendlesteam on September 16, 2017, 08:44:04 PM
Thank you Raphael, and thank you so much for your pictures.

I tested my range of boilers on the D10 last week and was stunned to find that the smallest boiler I produce which is only 2.5" diameter with a tiny 22mm flue was powerful enough to run the motor. It is of course way too small to run it for very long or with any great upmh but run it it did. I then tested the 5" twin flue boiler and this ran the motor constantly whilst maintaining maximum boiler pressure so raising enough steam will not be an issue. All of the other boilers I make ran the motor with no problem so I just have to choose which boiler will look the best - any thoughts on this? I will also be running an engine powered water pump and a water pre-heater coil with a super-heater.

Regards

Nigel
Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: rhavrane on September 16, 2017, 09:08:19 PM
Bonjour Nigel,
We have not been introduced and, checking "Pendlesteam" on the Net, I discover that you are a manufacturer. This is good news and I would be happy to find a way to deal with you and make your products known in France for example.
Besides this, I have seen your boilers and, as you know it I think, most of steam users have horizontal boilers, so I would suggest you a challenge, build a vertical "mushroom like" boiler with smoke pipes, please see what I mean on this video at 45" :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3J0AsrzwFpI
With an appropriate ceramic silent burner and a water feed pump, no need to have a huge one and you will be the king of the pond  :-))
And, as already said, a D10 needs nothing (15 psi) to be efficient : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkbGPp5QIno (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkbGPp5QIno)
Please note that I couple my D10 with 120 mm 4 blades propelles, thanks to its torque, that also saves steam and autonomy..
Totally apart from that, where are your whistles, mandatory accessory with the gas regulators and the RC safety gas valves to my opinion  ok2  ?
Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: steamboatmodel on September 17, 2017, 03:56:32 PM

Hi Nigel,
A very impressive line of products. With the smaller boiler and the D10 would any of them keep up it they had a feed pump?
Does your 2.5" boiler have cross tubes in the 22mm flue ?
Regards,
Gerald.
Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: jpdenver on September 17, 2017, 06:09:34 PM
Nigel,
(and Raphael)

So I am not complaining about the change in topic on MY thread,  and it is still a valid "sub-topic"
but I will at least wrap up the fine-tuning part of this thread by saying I think we have discussed a
lot ways to fine-tune the D10.  I am going to tear mine down and deal with a few stripped bolt-holes
before I rebuild it for use in a hull.

It is one thing run it for a couple of minutes, and another to run it for an hour.  I need to make sure that it does not
work something loose and bind up when it is out on a pond.

As to your question about putting it in a hull.

Obviously, an open hull gives the best view of the steam plant.   As to commercial kit/hulls, the Krick Borkum gives a lot of space.
As to some of the other Steam Launch types.  See my MH&B Topaz build log from earlier this year.

However, you might thing of picking up a hull specifically to use as a test platform.  That is what my "Greyhounds Revenge" is -
I created an open - removable platform and can mount various experiments on it. 

It was built on a Lady Margaret Hull from Kingston Mouldings.  And is completely free-form.
The removable platform gives me a lot of open space to add concepts to. Yet still looks pretty good on the water,
even if it is not historically based on reality.

The Boiler is from Mike Abbott at Maccsteam.  it holds about a liter. 

The pics below show the hull without the D10 plus a view of the D10 (partially disassembled) sitting approximately
where it will be mounted - once I remove the bottom casting and mount it on rails to lower it down for coupling.

Feel free to continue to use this thread to discuss this - we all benefit from tossing ideas around.

Regards to all -
Jim Pope
Denver,CO
USA

Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: pendlesteam on September 17, 2017, 08:07:15 PM
Thank you for the pictures Tim...and sorry for hijacking this most interesting thread.

All the best

Nigel
Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: pendlesteam on September 17, 2017, 08:13:46 PM
Dear Geralde

Thank you for your kind words. All of my boilers have cross tubes in them, all carefully configured to offer the most amount of heat absorption whilst not inhibiting the through flow of hot gasses. I have not fitted a feed pump to the small 2.5" boiler but if it were mated to the corresponding size engine there is no reason why it wouldnt cope. All of the other boilers are routinely connected to feed pumps and all without issue.

Regards

Nigel
Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: steamboatmodel on September 17, 2017, 11:38:16 PM

Thank you Nigel,
Jim your boiler and engine look very good in the boat, with so many (including some of mine) the boiler and engine are oversized, yours looks like a real boat.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: jpdenver on September 21, 2017, 02:19:50 AM
Thanks Gerald,

I finished up the plumbing, adding some insulation.

A little more timing to adjust.

Then maybe on a pond before winter. The leaves are turning and
the nights are getting colder.


Regards,
Jim
Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: steamboatmodel on September 21, 2017, 03:07:00 AM

I do like the blue on the D10, I now know what colour to do mine in.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: ooyah/2 on September 21, 2017, 09:01:22 PM
Hi Jim.


You will certainly have plenty of power with the D10 installed.
I enclose 2- pics of the D10 in my steam tug with the operating lever shown.
As the locking nut has to be removed to link up to a servo I used a small swivel joint that I acquired years ago which I think is for Aero use which you can see on the 3/16" dia rod.
I would advise that you use a steel geared servo which I used and I  think it was a 15kg pull one, the reason being that the standard servo would not stop the reversing levers to stop vibrating when the engine was running as you have to dispense with the hand lever and lock nut supplied.  I linked the servo to the new lever on the cross shaft  by a 1/16" dia brass rod and now with the new servo there is no movement when running.


Just thought that I would let you know my findings, the swivel connector is show on the second pic.


George.


 
Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: JimG on September 22, 2017, 12:49:13 PM
Your swivel joint is commonly used  on model aircraft especially the Chinese made ARTFs. They go by various names but here is an example
 https://hobbyking.com/en_us/linkage-stopper-m3x2xl11-2mm-10pcs-set.html (https://hobbyking.com/en_us/linkage-stopper-m3x2xl11-2mm-10pcs-set.html)
(I used the Hobbyking example as it was easy to find) They come in several sizes depending on the pushrod diameter.
If you are using one of these I would recommend the use of threadlock on all screws as they are known to loosen off with vibration.

Jim
Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: jpdenver on September 23, 2017, 03:28:11 AM
So I stripped the D10 partially down,
created a "piston wrench" (see pics)

Then I followed George's advice and
used locktite Red and Blue  to keep the
piston from unscrewing.

They had unscrewed and the piston jammed to the head.

So here is what I hope is the result of the final tuning.
Although the video seems to be jerky, the engine
was actually running very smooth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2uZhTYmQAI

When I get it into the hull, with all the linkages, I will post that
too.

Regards,
Jim
Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: jpdenver on October 07, 2017, 02:01:55 AM
Hello again.
Finally got back to finishing up the reverse linkage.
Found a Metal-geared Servo, 9KG pull.Took some pieces of brass angle and machined a bracket.Found a HEAVY-DUTY linkage for the reverse-gear shafton the engine, and used a metal one for the servo end too.
Here is a video on how she ran.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUp3emHNxtk&feature=em-upload_owner (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUp3emHNxtk&feature=em-upload_owner)

Then I also did some "stress-testing" of the assembly, not that I would
advocate slamming it back and forth, but you always need to seeif your plant can stand up to a little calculated abuse.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P01m-tbXl4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P01m-tbXl4)

So, this kinda wraps my tuning of the D10. 
Time to put the boats in dry-dock for the winter, we had our first snow last weekend.More snow coming on Monday.
Thank you everyone for hints and helps.
See you next build/project/deep hole/ or whatever.
Sail well, keep the keel-side down.
Regards,Jim PopeDenver, COUSA

Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: rhavrane on October 07, 2017, 09:16:38 AM
Bonjour James,
[/size]I have greatly appreciated your videos, they give me an objective for my last D10. On my other ones, I use 3 kg pull standard servos.
[/size]I have not been able,to read the pressure gauge, under which pressure did you realize your tests ?
[/size]And you have a last job to do now before the navigation, tune the whistle  ok2
Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: IanJ on October 07, 2017, 01:51:19 PM
Hi Jim,


Found your thread very interesting and great videos. You have created a lovely boat and very impressive steam plant that you should be very proud of. Look forward to more posts.


Regards


Ian
Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: jpdenver on October 10, 2017, 01:07:53 AM
Ian and Raphael,

Thanks for the comments.

As to working pressure, I use a Bix Regulator set for 40lbs/sq in.

It snowed today, so I am not sure when she will be back in the water.

When she is, I'll shoot some more video.  I will also work on the
feed tank system and begin to experiment on that.

Regards to all,

Jim
Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: jpdenver on October 15, 2017, 12:47:26 AM
To all,

I found a hand pump in my "Box of Misc Pieces and Parts"
I also had one from Microcosm, that was under sized.
So I am marrying them using a gearhead motor from
Polulu here in the states. 

I do not have room to add the D10 Pump itself.
So I am mounting it on a plate of brass and will use
a Servo-Switch to turn it on and off.

The pump will use the side tanks for a supply,
and the longer run time means I needed to increase the
size of the waste tank. 

Found a 50 gal barrel about a year ago, so I added some
plumbing and replaced the smaller tank.

All of this has been supervised by the captain and crew.
Now waiting on the final plumbing and a new set of
test runs.


Regards to all,
Jim




Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: KNO3 on October 15, 2017, 08:11:25 AM
What exactly keeps you from running this pump directly from the engine? It looks like there is some room.
Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: rhavrane on October 15, 2017, 08:42:32 AM
Bonjour Jim,
I do agree with Kno3, your boat worths a machanical pump. Would you oblige your curret captain to manage an electric device and its battery  ok2 ?
Besides this, you have a great oil separator, what a good idea  :-))   
And on my side, we have enhanced the tuning of my D10, video soon.
Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: jpdenver on October 16, 2017, 03:35:47 AM
Guys,

I thought long and hard on the subject. 

This boat is my "test bed"  for engines. 
The D10 is my second in this hull. 
The next engine is a Stuart Compound Twin.

The current engine really is too tight to fit in the pump
without quite a bit of rework on mounting, having to move the boiler
and reorganize the universal joint to get an extra 1/4 to 1/2 inch.

So by making the pump electrical, I can
swap engines in and out by just re-working
Steam and Exhaust, along with servo linkage.

So the pump is going to stay with the Boiler,
and the Hull. 

I am going to have to put away the hulls for a bit.

We just got 210 boxes of Kitchen from Ikea.
And my wife expects my time to be spent helping
the carpenter rebuilding ours.

Take care,
Keep the keels in a downward position,

Jim







Title: Re: Fine tuning a D10
Post by: steamboatmodel on October 16, 2017, 02:44:51 PM

Yes the Honey Do List can cut into modeling time, but it is usually worth it.
Gerald.