Model Boat Mayhem - Forum

Dry Dock / Shipyard: Builds & Questions => Sports boats, Race, Power and Leisure Boats: => Topic started by: Davo on September 14, 2017, 08:40:02 PM

Title: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on September 14, 2017, 08:40:02 PM
Built in 1966 my Sea Queen spent some time in the 70s with a Merco 61 as power. After some 25 years in dry dock I decided this year that the Merco would go for the simplicity of electric power.
Being new to all the latest electrical equipment I decided to install a Graupner 700BB with a 12V 5000 mAh SC NiMH battery and using the existing 2026 alloy two blade propeller.
Performance was quite acceptable. With the battery amidships below the cockpit it floated level and the bow came out of the water for a convincing scale speed.
However, success with a Sea Nymph going brushless with a 2028 motor lead me to believe I had maybe gone down the wrong road.
So, after much reading of the articles on brushless motors, I bought a Tornado Thumper V3 3542/05 1250KV and mounted it on another 700 engine mount so I could swap motors easily if things went wrong. A Hawk BL 60A HV brushless controller took care of power distribution. Looking at the installed tiny outrunner, less than half the size of the 700BB (and much lighter) I thought I had made a mistake.  Given these are really aero motors I mounted a 60mm dia computer fan with its own 9v battery to blow air through the motor.
Taking to the water with the same battery and prop was a revelation. Probably twice the speed with the boat on the plane as I remember it with the Merco 61.  I will experiment with other propellers and of course maybe higher voltage. Brushless motors are without doubt the way to go.
The picture is with the 700BB. (no one around to  take brushless pictures!)
David
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: canabus on September 15, 2017, 12:18:31 AM
Hi Davo
Nice engine swap.
OH, THE POWER OF BRUSHLESS!!!!!

If you go to 4S Lipo you will can about an extra 3500 rpm.
That if the ESC will take 4S.

Note the power rating for the motors are on the maximum voltage they can handle.

Canabus
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on September 15, 2017, 11:30:02 PM
There are still some minor works to be done. A brass framed screen will be added and I may reinstate the window frames but cut from brass sheet. Would be nice if there was an etched brass set available!
The Merco water cooling pipework still exists and was used for the brushed controller. Now I know this will not be going back in I may devise a brass assembly to water cool the engine mount frame.
I have also made a harness to put two 7.2v batteries together for a 14.4v set up. Classic boating at it's best.

(Still getting used to the University Challenge each time I post.........)
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: derekwarner_decoy on September 16, 2017, 12:36:54 AM
Dave...

From the image Sea Queen 200.jpg below. the windows appear  :o to have condensation......with the 60 mm pillow fan, is the a sufficient opening the cabin to provide fresh air for the fan?.....and so following on is there a corresponding outlet for the warm air from over the motor?

Derek
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: JB on September 16, 2017, 06:02:39 AM
The photo of your Sea Queen takes me back to 1967 at my old haunt of fleetwood lake in Lancashire!

A lovely pic  :-))

Well done for resurrecting the boat.

Lots of video online if you know where to look..

A few here for your interest..... and everyone else's I would think (hope?)  O0 8)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHJPgeUVAM4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHJPgeUVAM4)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Au6JQ7bopdE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Au6JQ7bopdE)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlaZmZJ0cGA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlaZmZJ0cGA)




Enjoy folks..

JaB.
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: JB on September 16, 2017, 06:25:54 AM
Another worth watching..if I've got the link right? !!!

Even I get it wrong ...sometimes..or is that.... usually??? %%


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPpZ-nsLTWc&t=22s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPpZ-nsLTWc&t=22s)

Might be a Fairy Huntsman or two in there... others too.. Aerokits crash tender? ..all good stuff anyway

JaB.
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: JB on September 16, 2017, 06:43:00 AM
I think.. not certain though  that this is a Mayhem members  Sea Queen with brushless?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vO4olY1x13Q&t=3s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vO4olY1x13Q&t=3s)

My old laptop is feeling the strain. will have to shut down for a while.

JaB.
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on September 16, 2017, 09:13:56 AM
The Youtube links are great and the ability these days to have on board footage is interesting.

Re cooling; the front windows remain open and the cabin door has open slats for letting air out; (and smoke in the old days!). The foggy windows are down to a lazy window cleaner!  The scale of the boat suggested a stepped cockpit floor and large door. The picture shows the trim tabs still fitted from IC days. See picture from 1975.
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: JB on September 16, 2017, 10:09:33 AM
Re Cooling.. the outlet must be at least 3 times the area of the inlet  O0

sounds daft but it's true..

I have seen model aircraft with very little in the way of outlet area in relation to the inlet..a small outlet hole only... %)   the flyer could  not understand why their I.C. engine cut out...not enough air flow out of the model airframe.  would think it's the same for an electric 'engine' in a boat ! unless it's watercooled....

Back later..italics are stuck on!

Just my sixpence .. :-))

JaB.
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Tug-Kenny on September 16, 2017, 10:15:55 AM

if you look at your letter (under Preview) you can see the little letter  (I)

Cut and re paste this where you want the ITALICS to end.   ok2

ken

Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: JB on September 16, 2017, 10:33:09 AM
Thanks Ken!

A new one to me, every day is a school day, take me the rest of the day to work it out  :embarrassed:

Ta.

JaB.
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on September 28, 2017, 10:53:36 PM
Being a newcomer to modern boat electronics I am wondering if I have the right fuse(s) in the right place. Searching 'fuses' did not throw up any articles. With the above set-up I only have one fuse on the positive feed from the battery to the ESC of 60amps rating.
The wiring Diagrams on the forum seem to show a second fuse protecting a brushed motor. Should a brushless motor be fuse protected? And, if so, which of the three wires would you choose?
Any guidance gratefully received!
David
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: canabus on September 29, 2017, 02:40:10 AM
Hi Davo

Fuse for the brushless motor via ESC are not required.

As I use the XT-60 connectors on the battery to ESC, I do not use any fuses in my setups.

Canabus
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on September 29, 2017, 12:35:47 PM
Hi Canabus.

The XT 60 connectors look the part for high voltage applications. Does that mean the Tamiya connectors used so far with 14AWG are not quite up to the job?. As high voltage will be for relatively short durations I hope that the Tamiya connectors will be ok.
So, do I need any fuse at all in a set up for brushless ESC (Hawk BL 60A HV)? To get a 60A fuse in the circuit means using a MAXI Blade fuse though I have also bought a 60A re-settable in-line fuse to try.
My current set up is quite simple (and will be tidied up when finalised!) as can be seen. The current small in-line fuse of 30A being not able to handle full throttle.
The water cooling was for the previous brushed ESC and will be adapted to some form of motor mount cooling.
Thanks in anticipation of guidance/comment.
David
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on September 30, 2017, 09:37:37 PM
Since the last post I have delved through some of the technical pages on the Mayhem website and decided to fit a re-setable  60amp fuse between the battery and the ESC. This quite large item was bolted to the bulkhead above the battery. This can also be used to isolate the battery at the press of a button. The ESC used did not have an ON/OFF switch as per other ESCs used. Just need to see how it goes on the water.
David
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Peter Wallis on October 09, 2017, 03:21:31 PM
So good to hear that I was not alone way back when I built my Sea Queen around 1963/4  also powered by a Merco 61 .
I converted to a MFA800 brushed motor initially with a Gel Cell then NiMH but early this year asked for advice via this 'FORUM' . As a result I switched to a 4Max Purple Power outrunner together with Turnigy Marine ESC  60A water cooled .
Not forgetting there was a weight reduction from 535G to 130G = updating the motor that must have been at least 20 years old ! This plus the 3S LiPo and prop change has changed the Sea Queen into a genuine 'fast electric' that one can use in the sea ..............YES .
I try and use metal props and common power source as I use the same 3S LiPO's in my Swordsman . -
I prefer to use but need to order a couple of replacements props - just in case !


   
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on October 09, 2017, 04:29:23 PM
Peter,
Good to hear another SQ has been refurbished. As you say, the weight savings with brushless and Lipo batteries is substantial. Maybe I should pluck up courage to go Lipo as well.  I have already invested in a modern charger for such things.
The Sea Queen is one model that would be quite happy on a reasonably calm sea and it would be lovely to try  one day (keeping swimming trunks to hand!).  I remember back in the 1960s that the SQ was often a choice for off-shore racing. No doubt lots of rinsing and cleaning after a run to avoid salt corrosion.
Maybe we need a Sea Queen Forum page!
David
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Peter Wallis on October 09, 2017, 06:10:33 PM
Well David the dear old Sea Queen has attracted a lot of 'posts' .
I know you can go further but in my own case a 3S LiPO was big enough as I always like commonality and this capacity does just that .................YES
Not sure how the experts work out prop size and pitch but I use a watt meter to measure how many watts we drawing making sure we are within safety limits for the ESC - so far so good .
The ESC I'm now using is rated up to 60A and the max I draw off is below 50A and that's only in short bursts - she plain's beautifully with this set up but I may fit a small fan to circulate air . This will use its own LiPO .


All the very best for now .


Peter
 





Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on October 09, 2017, 08:56:11 PM
Being new to brushless technology, and not having the advantage of a club and pooled knowledge, I am on a steep learning curve. It may be that an INRUNNER motor might well have the power desired but also have the benefit of full water cooling.  Still, I am very happy with the boat as it is at present so will enjoy it for now.
As mentioned, new windscreen and window frames are next on the list to bring her back up to standard. Will be looking out for friendly Action Man to take the helm.
David
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: ChrisF on October 09, 2017, 09:32:53 PM
David - with reference to your initial post can I ask where you got your motor mount from or is it one you've made? It looks as though you have fitted the aero mounting X piece to the motor and then connected that to the motor mount.

I'm looking to do the same thing but need to source the motor mount.

My motor is a bigger diameter being a Tornado Thumper V3 4250/06 800kv.

Chris
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on October 10, 2017, 04:46:18 PM
Chris,
The electric motor installation uses two of the original four mounts used for the Merco 61; which is why it looks a bit Heath Robinson. Having installed a 700BB motor it seemed logical to adapt the same motor mount for the 3542 brushless motor. The rationale being if it went wrong I could just drop the 700BB back in.
So a AMP 700 motor mount was obtained from Cornwall Model Boats (also available from Mantua Model UK Ltd) and fitted with the brushless motor mount as seen.  Alignment of the 700BB took a lot of trial and error but using the same mount allowed the brushless to just drop in. The bottom leg of the cross mount was filed down a bit to centre the motor.  I would think there is enough room for a 4250 motor. Cornwall Model Boats do an 800 size mount made to the same standards which might be an option.
Hope this is of help.
David
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Peter Wallis on October 10, 2017, 05:36:23 PM
Hi Guys - dare I say I too used the old engine bears from Merco 61 days when I fitted the dear old MFA motor .
The MFA motor was supplied with the mount and I was able to adapt this to take a model aircraft 'spider' mount that is perfect for the job . I too had the problem of alignment but managed in the end .
I find the 3S LiPO more than adequate for my needs - the ESC cuts out when the LiPO reach's a critical level . I then move the stick to neutral and gentle move forward that restarts the motor that gets me back pondside . Another good reason to use LiPO power .........................
 
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: ChrisF on October 10, 2017, 09:24:32 PM
David & Peter

Thanks for the information. I'll order a mount from Cornwall Model boats and see how I get on, will go for the 800.

I'd like to use the cross/spider as it came with the motor and fits it well.

Chris
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on October 10, 2017, 11:31:35 PM
Chris
I can vouch that the aluminium mount is both very light and stiff. For my smaller boats I have fabricated mounts but, as mentioned above, the easier route was a purpose made mount for the initial brushed motor.
I am looking to see how I can add some water cooling to the front of the mount although so far the motor has stayed cool. I am not sure how much influence the fan has on the installation.
Do post your final installation as the shared knowledge on this Forum is invaluable.
David
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. - Motor Mounts
Post by: Peter Wallis on October 11, 2017, 09:31:27 AM



Chris / David - my 4MAX outrunner was in fact second hand that was given to me by a fellow flyer . We had pond trials on Friday and apart from a few prop changes seem to have the right set up which I put down to using the watt meter .
What I call spider mounts I buy from www.4-max.co.uk . They have an extensive range of  'motor mounts' that I think you will find useful .


Peter 
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: canabus on October 11, 2017, 10:51:09 AM
Hi All
Generally all the motors from Hobbyking I have purchase came with the spider mounting bracket and screws.
All the motors I have purchase had the specs for the motor with required ESC, battery, power and all the required sizing.
Also they have water cooled motor mounts.
The 540 motor mounts handle the 35mm brushless motor, but, the red uni joints do not handle the extra power of the motors.
Banggood have a good range of metal ones(part No.87379).
I have not installed water cooling in any brushless motored boats as they only get very hot with over prop-ing the boat.
Yes I have done it, but, not kill a motor or ESC!!!
One of the  problems is no specs on water prop size and loading for model boats!!!
Another is very limited specs on motors and required ESC's, also maximum voltage.

The SG is on my bucket list to build(I have the PLANS !!!), but, I have a few other projects to finish first.
Also one of the club member has two which he does not use, so, I am working on that angle at present.
Old buddy, old pal, old mate, fellow club member!!!
Including a water thrust tester which is one for my mad idea's and maybe a total failure!!!!
This also has a Watt meter, motor RPM, motor Temp, battery Voltage and thrust scales or weights.

Canabus
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on October 11, 2017, 04:06:42 PM
Anyone building a Sea Queen should look to improve some areas of construction. The cabin roofs should have several profile formers, not just the ends and centre one, as the roof panels can sag with time.  Maybe make a one piece front roof (as per my Sea Nymph models) as it does look better (in my opinion) This design removes a roof joint.
At the bow add thicker timbers to the stem for fixing the ply skins to; this gives added strength. During the 1991 refit of mine I added a Kevlar strip down the bow as the ply to stem joint was looking a little weak (probably a few concrete pond edge collisions!)
Fill any voids (bow area) with expanding foam. My SQ had foam forced up into the voids under the deck for emergency buoyancy. It could get quite busy at Wanstead and collisions were not infrequent. Add in the drive by CB radio enthusiasts (1970s) whose radio signal would scatter our models in all directions for a few minutes.
The advent of powerful brushless motors has allowed enthusiasts to build traditional wood/ply based boats and still get good performance; many years ago only the preserve of fibreglass or vac formed hulls. It is great to see so many traditional boats being built on Forum threads.
David
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: ChrisF on October 16, 2017, 06:51:27 PM
It's a pity that the 3mm motor mounts on the Cornwall Model Boats web-site don't have a drawing showing the hole centres and diameters to make it easy to choose the right one.

I've emailed them to ask which one will suit my motor.

From another forum site posting I found that a 600 motor mount has the correct 25mm spacing for my 42mm dia motor but don't know if there is sufficient clearance between the motor casing and base of the mounting.
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Peter Wallis on October 16, 2017, 08:11:50 PM
I use the 4-Max.co.uk website for nearly all electrical needs especially those 'spiders' . . They have a full range for most outrunners .


Dare I say where possible I use the model aircraft supply base as items are far more competitively priced..........................


Peter W   
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: ChrisF on October 17, 2017, 01:27:28 PM
Peter - no problem with the spider as one came with the motor. But the outer holes are 50mm apart and I doubt that any right-angle mount is available to suit. I could always make one I suppose.

The inner holes are 25mm apart as per the 600 mount. I have found a supplier on Ebay that are the same/very similar to the Cornwall Model Boat ones and he does give dimensions. It is pretty tight for a 42mm dia. motor but should fit. I'll order one and check it out.

Chris
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: canabus on October 21, 2017, 06:50:59 AM
Hi All
As per Davo, with the brushless motors I have drop the lite ply and balsa.
Soft wood stringers and marine ply.
I did this with my Aerokits Sea Hornet and drop in a 750watt 28mm 1900kv motor on 3S Lipo with a 2 blade 32mm prop.
Pocket Rocket!!!!!
If GPS clocked at 45 KPH is not fast, what is!!!!
I set up the ESC with only 10% starting force and 25% reverse throttle for low speed.
At third throttle up on the plane and at scale speed.
I set up the transmitter throttle to another channel to limit the ESC to 50% and on changing the switch over to get 100% throttle.

Canabus
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: chris1 on October 21, 2017, 07:12:55 AM
Hi all and sorry to butt in.  I have a Sea Queen waiting to be restored.  I also have a 1000W, 1000kv outrunner motor i bought for a different project (airboat).  Can this motor be used in the Queen?  Any recommendation re battery cell count and prop size with this motor? Or is the kv too high?
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: canabus on October 21, 2017, 10:04:27 AM
Hi Chris 1

More info on the motor please, brand, diameter, cell count range?
1000kv is not to high.
If you get a ESC which handles to full cell count of the motor and Amps.
Changing the battery will give you the rpm required and that depends on the prop you use.

Canabus
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Peter Wallis on October 21, 2017, 11:29:52 AM
Firstly it amazes me how we have interests from Tasmania, Malta and Australia .
The original power for my S.Q was a Merco 61 - wonderful - followed by the MFA 800 electric . A good motor in its day but as we all know this motor was fine 20 years ago but electric power has moved ahead rapidly .
[size=78%]I now use a 600 brushless outrunner that first saw life in a friends model aircraft that I find ideal for my use as in 'fast electric' powered by a 3S LiPo 5,500A ..[/size]
This is now a very light boat and performs well - not only saving 400g with the switch to the outrunner the original battery was a 12V Gel cell and the switch to LiPo in terms of weight could be measured in lbs .


I use a watt meter to measure the efficiency of the prop exactly as we do in model aircraft . This has all been a steep learning curve for me but I am delighted with my 60A w/c Turnigy Marine ESC . The only change I envisage will be making is to fit a small fan powered by a separate LiPo directed at the only bearing ..
I know parts of this are a bit vague but these are guide lines from my experience as 'fast electric' is a new scene for me .


Peter W                                                                                       
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: chris1 on October 21, 2017, 01:36:05 PM
So i had a slight error.  The motor is a Turnigy Aerodrive 3548-4 (35mm diameter, 48mm length, not sure what the -4 represents.  It is a tually 1100kv and 910w, designed for 3 to 5 cell lipo, 11.1 to 18.5v.  Max current 50A.  ESC is not a proble, as i will just buy one big enough.  Batteries also not a problem as i have quite a few left over from my planes, which i have stopped flying.  Any help appreciated.
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on October 21, 2017, 04:19:32 PM
Chris
Your motor is in the same ball park as the one it fitted above so should be ok. The /4 figure I believe refers to the number of stators (or poles as in a brushed motor). The ESC I bought above has a programmer where all such data is entered to get the best out of the motor. You can even change the timing.
It is advised the an ESC of +20% of the stall range of the motor be used. To get a 60AMP rating fuse I used a re-settable one as used for hi-fi systems in cars (owners must be deaf) and I have seen these in Halfords though mine was bought after a search on eBay. You can use a large in-line blade fuse but the re-settable one includes a break button which could be useful in emergencies; also strangely my ESC had no on/off switch. This is fitted in the positive line between battery and ESC using 14AWG silicone cable.

Hope to see a new Topic with your build and results.

It would be good to have a register of kit builds with just basic running gear info, equipment installation pictures (without going into full build detail) and the eventual sea trial results.

David
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: chris1 on October 21, 2017, 05:48:06 PM
Thanks again David.  I still have to finish a static model (1/80 J Class Endeavour) before picking up the Queen, so not until early next year.  I will put up some pics along the way.  Lots of work to do on mine.  Given to me by an uncle who started to build it, almost complete, but never used it. 
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: canabus on October 22, 2017, 06:55:59 AM
Hi Chris 1
I have that motor in my Sea Commander on 3S lipo 5800mah with the Hobbyking car ESC 60 Amp and a 2 blade 40mm prop.
Good turn of speed with no water cooling on the motor.
I used the car ESC because of the electric fan on top and it does not get hot at low speed work.
General run the boat for about 1/2 a hour at a mix of speeds.
I have tested the boat on 4S and it is over what the boat can handle.
Canabus
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on November 15, 2017, 12:15:25 PM
Seeing all the nicely named boats on the Forum I decided the Sea Queen needed a name after some 50 years. So waterslide transfers from eBay were obtained, applied and sealed with spray can varnish.  Named after my mum who encouraged all our hobbies. How many kids build an Airfix kit with their dad these days?
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Peter Wallis on November 15, 2017, 03:58:52 PM
Two weeks ago I enjoyed an outing with my Sea Queen on the  Tamar River in Cornwall  - the new 600 outrunner powered by a 3S 5500A  LiPo gave excellent performance in choppy conditions .


She  has the letters K.F on her stern - i was amazed when an onlooker came up to me and asked had I been a member of the 'King Fisher' model boat club and that must have been 45 years ago . Sadly this club no longer running .


Peter Wallis


North Hampshire
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: shadysadie on November 15, 2017, 06:20:23 PM
Hello folks. I'm not trying to high-jack this thread but have been following it with great interest because I've just started to build a Sea Queen and want to go brushless from the start. I have a Turnigy 3639 -1100 outrunner left from a previous project, together with a HK 60A brushless car ESC and wonder if this combination would be any good to power the boat? Otherwise, what would you recommend as an alternative to give a good turn of speed?
Canabus earlier mentioned that the std. red uni-joints are not up to handling high powered motors and here in the UK you can get a bonded rubber uni- drive made up to order from SHG models. I am using these items in my MTB and can confirm that they are excellent.
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Peter Wallis on November 15, 2017, 08:36:11 PM
A little more info - my 600 brushless outrunner is not far off the power output of the original engine I used 50 odd years ago -a Merco 61  10cc glow motor.
I now use a Turnigy Marine ESC  60A w/c and 3S 5500A LiPo that allows me to draw up to 50A  and this combination I find is ample power for my 46" Sea Queen .


I believe I have the right balance . With your 1100 outrunner  you will need a 4S LiPo and bigger ESC which in my terms are not cost effective .


But it's only a hobby so your choice ENJOY .


Peter Wallis


North Hampshire


 
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on November 15, 2017, 09:46:22 PM
The above motors are in the same ball park as my conversion to brushless so I guess we are all enjoying the same level of performance. I am still with NiMH batteries at just 12v so 2No NiMH 7.2v batteries in parallel should go even better.

Sadly, since my test run I have not yet been back to the lake to test the new safety cut out. The lake is used for breeding ducks this time of year and so boating is a bit alien to them!

Nice to know so many Sea Queens are going back to sea. They really excel in choppy waters so looking forward to a windy day for the next outing.
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on November 15, 2017, 10:42:27 PM
This is the fuse I have installed for 60amp. It can be re-set or at a push of a button cut out the battery supply.
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Peter Wallis on November 16, 2017, 09:17:37 AM

I think I could do with that from where did you buy !


Early this year I had a very old ESC 'melt' on me - no flames thankfully just smoke . I was very lucky to get away with it - my new ESC is mounted on a metal plate and is water cooled as well as having a built in cut-out .


Have to say this was all my fault ..........................


Peter Wallis


North Hampshire
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on November 16, 2017, 10:09:06 AM
I acquired this after a search on ebay for 60 amp fuses. At this level all fuse options get a bit large and I would be interested to know what products others have used at this level.  At 100mm long not an easy item to lose in a model boat but the space in the Sea Queen allows for it. Also, the ESC I have does not have an on/off switch so the push button break facility is a good way to isolate all electrics.

search:   60AMP Car Audio Circuit AGU Style Breaker Fuse 12-24vDC UK L121B

I have since seen them in the car Hi Fi section at Halfords. 
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: jarvo on November 16, 2017, 10:16:49 AM
Compared to the Aero guys, we are very much on a learning curve, most all of the motors i have seen are specced for aero props so any info we can share will do us all good


Mark
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: canabus on November 16, 2017, 11:42:58 AM
Hi Peter
I found out about the water cooled ESCs not having an on/off switch, so I was told by the guys at the club to use the Hobbyking car ESC.
These are available up to 100 Amps(different program card) and handle up to 4S.
Also have an electric fan on top, so cooling problems at low speed.
If you setup the start power to between 5 and 10% very good slow speed.
The reverse I set to 25% to go a good reverse speed.
I have 8 boats with these ESCs and have not had a problem with them.
Also I changed to the XT60 connectors because I think they are safer than the Deans ones .

Canabus
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: shadysadie on November 16, 2017, 01:12:11 PM
So I'm now thinking along the lines of a Turnigy L5055B - 600KV.. Will this be OK bearing in mind that I want a good turn of speed but am not wanting to break any records (or boats)?
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Tug Fanatic on November 16, 2017, 02:51:09 PM


...........................60AMP Car Audio Circuit AGU Style Breaker Fuse 12-24vDC UK L121B

I have since seen them in the car Hi Fi section at Halfords.


To need that I don't think that Hi Fi is an appropriate term!


This should be really nice when finished. I have always liked the Sea Queen - it somehow has gravitas.
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Peter Wallis on November 16, 2017, 03:54:52 PM
Have to Guy's i'm overwhelmed by the interest in the old Sea Queen ......................


Coming from the model aircraft world we are recommended to use 'bullets' at all times and I still do.


The Turnigy marine ESC range seem to be all W/C and whilst at times I'm drawing 50A  from the 60A ESC it's just warm . Their range is reasonably priced and the quality excellent . Dare I say you can pay twice the price and this will not be as good - fact . Also their whole ESC range has a switch as standard .                                                                 


I have noted with some surprise there has been little mention of the 'watt meter' that is so widely used in the model aircraft . I have used  this instrument to help identify the correct prop and the level of current drawn from the LiPo in the S.Q. 

Long may this interest continue.............

Peter Wallis

North Hampshire
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Tug Fanatic on November 16, 2017, 04:14:37 PM

I think that you can divide the model boating population quite easily. Those with an aircraft background believe in our watt meters & most of the rest have either never heard of them or certainly never mention their use. I guess that part of the problem is that I have a box full of aircraft propellers & I am quite happy to try a few to see what works & what doesn't. Scale model boat owners take a guess, based on experience or recommendation, and buy one relatively expensive brass prop. As most scale boats do not push their motors very hard this seems to work most of the time & very few know or care whether it is the optimal solution. Boats are a lot less sensitive to weight than aircraft so always fitting the bigger motor is rarely a bad idea in a boat.


You will have noted that there is virtually no data available for scale model boat props.


I will be interested to hear what your watt meter records.
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on November 16, 2017, 05:30:48 PM
I would be interested to know if there is a watt meter that can record the highest load drawn by the motor when at sea and remember it. I suppose a test in the bath with one might give some indication of power consumption. (For safety do not sit in the bath during testing!).
As outlined above, with model boats it is a case of trial and error as speeds can usually be fairly slow and will vary greatly compared to an aircraft. Whereas I imagine a motor on a model aircraft is probably running at max output for a lot of the time.
David
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Tug Fanatic on November 16, 2017, 06:54:45 PM
 Yes you can do this. You can buy logging systems such as:
http://www.eagletreesystems.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=54 (http://www.eagletreesystems.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=54)
You can also buy motor controllers that do the data logging for you - in fact this is the way that I would go.
https://hobbyking.com/en_us/aerostar-advance-150a-esc-opto.html (https://hobbyking.com/en_us/aerostar-advance-150a-esc-opto.html)
I have not used data loggers & I am sure that it can be done for a lot less money than those listed above. I offer them as a demonstration of method only.
If you only want peak readings it is much easier & cheaper. If it was me in a boat with long time high throttle/load use I would think keeping an eye on motor temperature was a good idea as well.

 
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Peter Wallis on November 16, 2017, 08:13:35 PM
WATT METER


Used to measure the amount of current being drawn from the battery - in my case LiPo .


I know what my motor will draw and the max the ESC can handle .


The boat is placed in the water whilst held advancing the throttle to maximum .


If the measured current is below the max throttle setting then the prop is too small - either fit a larger prop or one with more pitch .


If the current drain is to high the fit a smaller prop or increase pitch .


From my experience I never run a set up more than at 90% of the ESC - in other words do your homework otherwise when you make a mistake it can be expensive . I am lucky as I have a very good friend who checks though my system ......................


P.W     





Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: canabus on November 16, 2017, 09:40:19 PM
Hi Shady

Or the Turnigy L5055-700 which I am going to use in my 46" Vosper Crash Tender with a 52mm 2 blade prop on 3S to start with and maybe 4S on a Hobbyking car ESC 100 amp.
I also have a 150Amp water cooled ESC which handles up to 6S (twin 5800mah 3S in series).
A mate in the club has a number of props around the 50-60mm size I can test as well.

Canabus
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: shadysadie on November 17, 2017, 07:52:13 AM
Many thanks Canabus. Your past advice regarding my Vosper MTB and Fairmile D was spot-on, so Turnigy L5055-700 it shall be for Sea Queen.