Model Boat Mayhem - Forum

Dry Dock / Shipyard: Builds & Questions => Sports boats, Race, Power and Leisure Boats: => Topic started by: Davo on September 14, 2017, 08:40:02 PM

Title: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on September 14, 2017, 08:40:02 PM
Built in 1966 my Sea Queen spent some time in the 70s with a Merco 61 as power. After some 25 years in dry dock I decided this year that the Merco would go for the simplicity of electric power.
Being new to all the latest electrical equipment I decided to install a Graupner 700BB with a 12V 5000 mAh SC NiMH battery and using the existing 2026 alloy two blade propeller.
Performance was quite acceptable. With the battery amidships below the cockpit it floated level and the bow came out of the water for a convincing scale speed.
However, success with a Sea Nymph going brushless with a 2028 motor lead me to believe I had maybe gone down the wrong road.
So, after much reading of the articles on brushless motors, I bought a Tornado Thumper V3 3542/05 1250KV and mounted it on another 700 engine mount so I could swap motors easily if things went wrong. A Hawk BL 60A HV brushless controller took care of power distribution. Looking at the installed tiny outrunner, less than half the size of the 700BB (and much lighter) I thought I had made a mistake.  Given these are really aero motors I mounted a 60mm dia computer fan with its own 9v battery to blow air through the motor.
Taking to the water with the same battery and prop was a revelation. Probably twice the speed with the boat on the plane as I remember it with the Merco 61.  I will experiment with other propellers and of course maybe higher voltage. Brushless motors are without doubt the way to go.
The picture is with the 700BB. (no one around to  take brushless pictures!)
David
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: canabus on September 15, 2017, 12:18:31 AM
Hi Davo
Nice engine swap.
OH, THE POWER OF BRUSHLESS!!!!!

If you go to 4S Lipo you will can about an extra 3500 rpm.
That if the ESC will take 4S.

Note the power rating for the motors are on the maximum voltage they can handle.

Canabus
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on September 15, 2017, 11:30:02 PM
There are still some minor works to be done. A brass framed screen will be added and I may reinstate the window frames but cut from brass sheet. Would be nice if there was an etched brass set available!
The Merco water cooling pipework still exists and was used for the brushed controller. Now I know this will not be going back in I may devise a brass assembly to water cool the engine mount frame.
I have also made a harness to put two 7.2v batteries together for a 14.4v set up. Classic boating at it's best.

(Still getting used to the University Challenge each time I post.........)
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: derekwarner_decoy on September 16, 2017, 12:36:54 AM
Dave...

From the image Sea Queen 200.jpg below. the windows appear  :o to have condensation......with the 60 mm pillow fan, is the a sufficient opening the cabin to provide fresh air for the fan?.....and so following on is there a corresponding outlet for the warm air from over the motor?

Derek
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: JB on September 16, 2017, 06:02:39 AM
The photo of your Sea Queen takes me back to 1967 at my old haunt of fleetwood lake in Lancashire!

A lovely pic  :-))

Well done for resurrecting the boat.

Lots of video online if you know where to look..

A few here for your interest..... and everyone else's I would think (hope?)  O0 8)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHJPgeUVAM4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHJPgeUVAM4)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Au6JQ7bopdE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Au6JQ7bopdE)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlaZmZJ0cGA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlaZmZJ0cGA)




Enjoy folks..

JaB.
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: JB on September 16, 2017, 06:25:54 AM
Another worth watching..if I've got the link right? !!!

Even I get it wrong ...sometimes..or is that.... usually??? %%


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPpZ-nsLTWc&t=22s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPpZ-nsLTWc&t=22s)

Might be a Fairy Huntsman or two in there... others too.. Aerokits crash tender? ..all good stuff anyway

JaB.
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: JB on September 16, 2017, 06:43:00 AM
I think.. not certain though  that this is a Mayhem members  Sea Queen with brushless?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vO4olY1x13Q&t=3s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vO4olY1x13Q&t=3s)

My old laptop is feeling the strain. will have to shut down for a while.

JaB.
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on September 16, 2017, 09:13:56 AM
The Youtube links are great and the ability these days to have on board footage is interesting.

Re cooling; the front windows remain open and the cabin door has open slats for letting air out; (and smoke in the old days!). The foggy windows are down to a lazy window cleaner!  The scale of the boat suggested a stepped cockpit floor and large door. The picture shows the trim tabs still fitted from IC days. See picture from 1975.
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: JB on September 16, 2017, 10:09:33 AM
Re Cooling.. the outlet must be at least 3 times the area of the inlet  O0

sounds daft but it's true..

I have seen model aircraft with very little in the way of outlet area in relation to the inlet..a small outlet hole only... %)   the flyer could  not understand why their I.C. engine cut out...not enough air flow out of the model airframe.  would think it's the same for an electric 'engine' in a boat ! unless it's watercooled....

Back later..italics are stuck on!

Just my sixpence .. :-))

JaB.
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Tug-Kenny on September 16, 2017, 10:15:55 AM

if you look at your letter (under Preview) you can see the little letter  (I)

Cut and re paste this where you want the ITALICS to end.   ok2

ken

Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: JB on September 16, 2017, 10:33:09 AM
Thanks Ken!

A new one to me, every day is a school day, take me the rest of the day to work it out  :embarrassed:

Ta.

JaB.
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on September 28, 2017, 10:53:36 PM
Being a newcomer to modern boat electronics I am wondering if I have the right fuse(s) in the right place. Searching 'fuses' did not throw up any articles. With the above set-up I only have one fuse on the positive feed from the battery to the ESC of 60amps rating.
The wiring Diagrams on the forum seem to show a second fuse protecting a brushed motor. Should a brushless motor be fuse protected? And, if so, which of the three wires would you choose?
Any guidance gratefully received!
David
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: canabus on September 29, 2017, 02:40:10 AM
Hi Davo

Fuse for the brushless motor via ESC are not required.

As I use the XT-60 connectors on the battery to ESC, I do not use any fuses in my setups.

Canabus
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on September 29, 2017, 12:35:47 PM
Hi Canabus.

The XT 60 connectors look the part for high voltage applications. Does that mean the Tamiya connectors used so far with 14AWG are not quite up to the job?. As high voltage will be for relatively short durations I hope that the Tamiya connectors will be ok.
So, do I need any fuse at all in a set up for brushless ESC (Hawk BL 60A HV)? To get a 60A fuse in the circuit means using a MAXI Blade fuse though I have also bought a 60A re-settable in-line fuse to try.
My current set up is quite simple (and will be tidied up when finalised!) as can be seen. The current small in-line fuse of 30A being not able to handle full throttle.
The water cooling was for the previous brushed ESC and will be adapted to some form of motor mount cooling.
Thanks in anticipation of guidance/comment.
David
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on September 30, 2017, 09:37:37 PM
Since the last post I have delved through some of the technical pages on the Mayhem website and decided to fit a re-setable  60amp fuse between the battery and the ESC. This quite large item was bolted to the bulkhead above the battery. This can also be used to isolate the battery at the press of a button. The ESC used did not have an ON/OFF switch as per other ESCs used. Just need to see how it goes on the water.
David
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Peter Wallis on October 09, 2017, 03:21:31 PM
So good to hear that I was not alone way back when I built my Sea Queen around 1963/4  also powered by a Merco 61 .
I converted to a MFA800 brushed motor initially with a Gel Cell then NiMH but early this year asked for advice via this 'FORUM' . As a result I switched to a 4Max Purple Power outrunner together with Turnigy Marine ESC  60A water cooled .
Not forgetting there was a weight reduction from 535G to 130G = updating the motor that must have been at least 20 years old ! This plus the 3S LiPo and prop change has changed the Sea Queen into a genuine 'fast electric' that one can use in the sea ..............YES .
I try and use metal props and common power source as I use the same 3S LiPO's in my Swordsman . -
I prefer to use but need to order a couple of replacements props - just in case !


   
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on October 09, 2017, 04:29:23 PM
Peter,
Good to hear another SQ has been refurbished. As you say, the weight savings with brushless and Lipo batteries is substantial. Maybe I should pluck up courage to go Lipo as well.  I have already invested in a modern charger for such things.
The Sea Queen is one model that would be quite happy on a reasonably calm sea and it would be lovely to try  one day (keeping swimming trunks to hand!).  I remember back in the 1960s that the SQ was often a choice for off-shore racing. No doubt lots of rinsing and cleaning after a run to avoid salt corrosion.
Maybe we need a Sea Queen Forum page!
David
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Peter Wallis on October 09, 2017, 06:10:33 PM
Well David the dear old Sea Queen has attracted a lot of 'posts' .
I know you can go further but in my own case a 3S LiPO was big enough as I always like commonality and this capacity does just that .................YES
Not sure how the experts work out prop size and pitch but I use a watt meter to measure how many watts we drawing making sure we are within safety limits for the ESC - so far so good .
The ESC I'm now using is rated up to 60A and the max I draw off is below 50A and that's only in short bursts - she plain's beautifully with this set up but I may fit a small fan to circulate air . This will use its own LiPO .


All the very best for now .


Peter
 





Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on October 09, 2017, 08:56:11 PM
Being new to brushless technology, and not having the advantage of a club and pooled knowledge, I am on a steep learning curve. It may be that an INRUNNER motor might well have the power desired but also have the benefit of full water cooling.  Still, I am very happy with the boat as it is at present so will enjoy it for now.
As mentioned, new windscreen and window frames are next on the list to bring her back up to standard. Will be looking out for friendly Action Man to take the helm.
David
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: ChrisF on October 09, 2017, 09:32:53 PM
David - with reference to your initial post can I ask where you got your motor mount from or is it one you've made? It looks as though you have fitted the aero mounting X piece to the motor and then connected that to the motor mount.

I'm looking to do the same thing but need to source the motor mount.

My motor is a bigger diameter being a Tornado Thumper V3 4250/06 800kv.

Chris
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on October 10, 2017, 04:46:18 PM
Chris,
The electric motor installation uses two of the original four mounts used for the Merco 61; which is why it looks a bit Heath Robinson. Having installed a 700BB motor it seemed logical to adapt the same motor mount for the 3542 brushless motor. The rationale being if it went wrong I could just drop the 700BB back in.
So a AMP 700 motor mount was obtained from Cornwall Model Boats (also available from Mantua Model UK Ltd) and fitted with the brushless motor mount as seen.  Alignment of the 700BB took a lot of trial and error but using the same mount allowed the brushless to just drop in. The bottom leg of the cross mount was filed down a bit to centre the motor.  I would think there is enough room for a 4250 motor. Cornwall Model Boats do an 800 size mount made to the same standards which might be an option.
Hope this is of help.
David
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Peter Wallis on October 10, 2017, 05:36:23 PM
Hi Guys - dare I say I too used the old engine bears from Merco 61 days when I fitted the dear old MFA motor .
The MFA motor was supplied with the mount and I was able to adapt this to take a model aircraft 'spider' mount that is perfect for the job . I too had the problem of alignment but managed in the end .
I find the 3S LiPO more than adequate for my needs - the ESC cuts out when the LiPO reach's a critical level . I then move the stick to neutral and gentle move forward that restarts the motor that gets me back pondside . Another good reason to use LiPO power .........................
 
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: ChrisF on October 10, 2017, 09:24:32 PM
David & Peter

Thanks for the information. I'll order a mount from Cornwall Model boats and see how I get on, will go for the 800.

I'd like to use the cross/spider as it came with the motor and fits it well.

Chris
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on October 10, 2017, 11:31:35 PM
Chris
I can vouch that the aluminium mount is both very light and stiff. For my smaller boats I have fabricated mounts but, as mentioned above, the easier route was a purpose made mount for the initial brushed motor.
I am looking to see how I can add some water cooling to the front of the mount although so far the motor has stayed cool. I am not sure how much influence the fan has on the installation.
Do post your final installation as the shared knowledge on this Forum is invaluable.
David
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. - Motor Mounts
Post by: Peter Wallis on October 11, 2017, 09:31:27 AM



Chris / David - my 4MAX outrunner was in fact second hand that was given to me by a fellow flyer . We had pond trials on Friday and apart from a few prop changes seem to have the right set up which I put down to using the watt meter .
What I call spider mounts I buy from www.4-max.co.uk . They have an extensive range of  'motor mounts' that I think you will find useful .


Peter 
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: canabus on October 11, 2017, 10:51:09 AM
Hi All
Generally all the motors from Hobbyking I have purchase came with the spider mounting bracket and screws.
All the motors I have purchase had the specs for the motor with required ESC, battery, power and all the required sizing.
Also they have water cooled motor mounts.
The 540 motor mounts handle the 35mm brushless motor, but, the red uni joints do not handle the extra power of the motors.
Banggood have a good range of metal ones(part No.87379).
I have not installed water cooling in any brushless motored boats as they only get very hot with over prop-ing the boat.
Yes I have done it, but, not kill a motor or ESC!!!
One of the  problems is no specs on water prop size and loading for model boats!!!
Another is very limited specs on motors and required ESC's, also maximum voltage.

The SG is on my bucket list to build(I have the PLANS !!!), but, I have a few other projects to finish first.
Also one of the club member has two which he does not use, so, I am working on that angle at present.
Old buddy, old pal, old mate, fellow club member!!!
Including a water thrust tester which is one for my mad idea's and maybe a total failure!!!!
This also has a Watt meter, motor RPM, motor Temp, battery Voltage and thrust scales or weights.

Canabus
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on October 11, 2017, 04:06:42 PM
Anyone building a Sea Queen should look to improve some areas of construction. The cabin roofs should have several profile formers, not just the ends and centre one, as the roof panels can sag with time.  Maybe make a one piece front roof (as per my Sea Nymph models) as it does look better (in my opinion) This design removes a roof joint.
At the bow add thicker timbers to the stem for fixing the ply skins to; this gives added strength. During the 1991 refit of mine I added a Kevlar strip down the bow as the ply to stem joint was looking a little weak (probably a few concrete pond edge collisions!)
Fill any voids (bow area) with expanding foam. My SQ had foam forced up into the voids under the deck for emergency buoyancy. It could get quite busy at Wanstead and collisions were not infrequent. Add in the drive by CB radio enthusiasts (1970s) whose radio signal would scatter our models in all directions for a few minutes.
The advent of powerful brushless motors has allowed enthusiasts to build traditional wood/ply based boats and still get good performance; many years ago only the preserve of fibreglass or vac formed hulls. It is great to see so many traditional boats being built on Forum threads.
David
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: ChrisF on October 16, 2017, 06:51:27 PM
It's a pity that the 3mm motor mounts on the Cornwall Model Boats web-site don't have a drawing showing the hole centres and diameters to make it easy to choose the right one.

I've emailed them to ask which one will suit my motor.

From another forum site posting I found that a 600 motor mount has the correct 25mm spacing for my 42mm dia motor but don't know if there is sufficient clearance between the motor casing and base of the mounting.
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Peter Wallis on October 16, 2017, 08:11:50 PM
I use the 4-Max.co.uk website for nearly all electrical needs especially those 'spiders' . . They have a full range for most outrunners .


Dare I say where possible I use the model aircraft supply base as items are far more competitively priced..........................


Peter W   
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: ChrisF on October 17, 2017, 01:27:28 PM
Peter - no problem with the spider as one came with the motor. But the outer holes are 50mm apart and I doubt that any right-angle mount is available to suit. I could always make one I suppose.

The inner holes are 25mm apart as per the 600 mount. I have found a supplier on Ebay that are the same/very similar to the Cornwall Model Boat ones and he does give dimensions. It is pretty tight for a 42mm dia. motor but should fit. I'll order one and check it out.

Chris
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: canabus on October 21, 2017, 06:50:59 AM
Hi All
As per Davo, with the brushless motors I have drop the lite ply and balsa.
Soft wood stringers and marine ply.
I did this with my Aerokits Sea Hornet and drop in a 750watt 28mm 1900kv motor on 3S Lipo with a 2 blade 32mm prop.
Pocket Rocket!!!!!
If GPS clocked at 45 KPH is not fast, what is!!!!
I set up the ESC with only 10% starting force and 25% reverse throttle for low speed.
At third throttle up on the plane and at scale speed.
I set up the transmitter throttle to another channel to limit the ESC to 50% and on changing the switch over to get 100% throttle.

Canabus
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: chris1 on October 21, 2017, 07:12:55 AM
Hi all and sorry to butt in.  I have a Sea Queen waiting to be restored.  I also have a 1000W, 1000kv outrunner motor i bought for a different project (airboat).  Can this motor be used in the Queen?  Any recommendation re battery cell count and prop size with this motor? Or is the kv too high?
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: canabus on October 21, 2017, 10:04:27 AM
Hi Chris 1

More info on the motor please, brand, diameter, cell count range?
1000kv is not to high.
If you get a ESC which handles to full cell count of the motor and Amps.
Changing the battery will give you the rpm required and that depends on the prop you use.

Canabus
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Peter Wallis on October 21, 2017, 11:29:52 AM
Firstly it amazes me how we have interests from Tasmania, Malta and Australia .
The original power for my S.Q was a Merco 61 - wonderful - followed by the MFA 800 electric . A good motor in its day but as we all know this motor was fine 20 years ago but electric power has moved ahead rapidly .
[size=78%]I now use a 600 brushless outrunner that first saw life in a friends model aircraft that I find ideal for my use as in 'fast electric' powered by a 3S LiPo 5,500A ..[/size]
This is now a very light boat and performs well - not only saving 400g with the switch to the outrunner the original battery was a 12V Gel cell and the switch to LiPo in terms of weight could be measured in lbs .


I use a watt meter to measure the efficiency of the prop exactly as we do in model aircraft . This has all been a steep learning curve for me but I am delighted with my 60A w/c Turnigy Marine ESC . The only change I envisage will be making is to fit a small fan powered by a separate LiPo directed at the only bearing ..
I know parts of this are a bit vague but these are guide lines from my experience as 'fast electric' is a new scene for me .


Peter W                                                                                       
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: chris1 on October 21, 2017, 01:36:05 PM
So i had a slight error.  The motor is a Turnigy Aerodrive 3548-4 (35mm diameter, 48mm length, not sure what the -4 represents.  It is a tually 1100kv and 910w, designed for 3 to 5 cell lipo, 11.1 to 18.5v.  Max current 50A.  ESC is not a proble, as i will just buy one big enough.  Batteries also not a problem as i have quite a few left over from my planes, which i have stopped flying.  Any help appreciated.
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on October 21, 2017, 04:19:32 PM
Chris
Your motor is in the same ball park as the one it fitted above so should be ok. The /4 figure I believe refers to the number of stators (or poles as in a brushed motor). The ESC I bought above has a programmer where all such data is entered to get the best out of the motor. You can even change the timing.
It is advised the an ESC of +20% of the stall range of the motor be used. To get a 60AMP rating fuse I used a re-settable one as used for hi-fi systems in cars (owners must be deaf) and I have seen these in Halfords though mine was bought after a search on eBay. You can use a large in-line blade fuse but the re-settable one includes a break button which could be useful in emergencies; also strangely my ESC had no on/off switch. This is fitted in the positive line between battery and ESC using 14AWG silicone cable.

Hope to see a new Topic with your build and results.

It would be good to have a register of kit builds with just basic running gear info, equipment installation pictures (without going into full build detail) and the eventual sea trial results.

David
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: chris1 on October 21, 2017, 05:48:06 PM
Thanks again David.  I still have to finish a static model (1/80 J Class Endeavour) before picking up the Queen, so not until early next year.  I will put up some pics along the way.  Lots of work to do on mine.  Given to me by an uncle who started to build it, almost complete, but never used it. 
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: canabus on October 22, 2017, 06:55:59 AM
Hi Chris 1
I have that motor in my Sea Commander on 3S lipo 5800mah with the Hobbyking car ESC 60 Amp and a 2 blade 40mm prop.
Good turn of speed with no water cooling on the motor.
I used the car ESC because of the electric fan on top and it does not get hot at low speed work.
General run the boat for about 1/2 a hour at a mix of speeds.
I have tested the boat on 4S and it is over what the boat can handle.
Canabus
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on November 15, 2017, 12:15:25 PM
Seeing all the nicely named boats on the Forum I decided the Sea Queen needed a name after some 50 years. So waterslide transfers from eBay were obtained, applied and sealed with spray can varnish.  Named after my mum who encouraged all our hobbies. How many kids build an Airfix kit with their dad these days?
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Peter Wallis on November 15, 2017, 03:58:52 PM
Two weeks ago I enjoyed an outing with my Sea Queen on the  Tamar River in Cornwall  - the new 600 outrunner powered by a 3S 5500A  LiPo gave excellent performance in choppy conditions .


She  has the letters K.F on her stern - i was amazed when an onlooker came up to me and asked had I been a member of the 'King Fisher' model boat club and that must have been 45 years ago . Sadly this club no longer running .


Peter Wallis


North Hampshire
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: shadysadie on November 15, 2017, 06:20:23 PM
Hello folks. I'm not trying to high-jack this thread but have been following it with great interest because I've just started to build a Sea Queen and want to go brushless from the start. I have a Turnigy 3639 -1100 outrunner left from a previous project, together with a HK 60A brushless car ESC and wonder if this combination would be any good to power the boat? Otherwise, what would you recommend as an alternative to give a good turn of speed?
Canabus earlier mentioned that the std. red uni-joints are not up to handling high powered motors and here in the UK you can get a bonded rubber uni- drive made up to order from SHG models. I am using these items in my MTB and can confirm that they are excellent.
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Peter Wallis on November 15, 2017, 08:36:11 PM
A little more info - my 600 brushless outrunner is not far off the power output of the original engine I used 50 odd years ago -a Merco 61  10cc glow motor.
I now use a Turnigy Marine ESC  60A w/c and 3S 5500A LiPo that allows me to draw up to 50A  and this combination I find is ample power for my 46" Sea Queen .


I believe I have the right balance . With your 1100 outrunner  you will need a 4S LiPo and bigger ESC which in my terms are not cost effective .


But it's only a hobby so your choice ENJOY .


Peter Wallis


North Hampshire


 
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on November 15, 2017, 09:46:22 PM
The above motors are in the same ball park as my conversion to brushless so I guess we are all enjoying the same level of performance. I am still with NiMH batteries at just 12v so 2No NiMH 7.2v batteries in parallel should go even better.

Sadly, since my test run I have not yet been back to the lake to test the new safety cut out. The lake is used for breeding ducks this time of year and so boating is a bit alien to them!

Nice to know so many Sea Queens are going back to sea. They really excel in choppy waters so looking forward to a windy day for the next outing.
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on November 15, 2017, 10:42:27 PM
This is the fuse I have installed for 60amp. It can be re-set or at a push of a button cut out the battery supply.
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Peter Wallis on November 16, 2017, 09:17:37 AM

I think I could do with that from where did you buy !


Early this year I had a very old ESC 'melt' on me - no flames thankfully just smoke . I was very lucky to get away with it - my new ESC is mounted on a metal plate and is water cooled as well as having a built in cut-out .


Have to say this was all my fault ..........................


Peter Wallis


North Hampshire
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on November 16, 2017, 10:09:06 AM
I acquired this after a search on ebay for 60 amp fuses. At this level all fuse options get a bit large and I would be interested to know what products others have used at this level.  At 100mm long not an easy item to lose in a model boat but the space in the Sea Queen allows for it. Also, the ESC I have does not have an on/off switch so the push button break facility is a good way to isolate all electrics.

search:   60AMP Car Audio Circuit AGU Style Breaker Fuse 12-24vDC UK L121B

I have since seen them in the car Hi Fi section at Halfords. 
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: jarvo on November 16, 2017, 10:16:49 AM
Compared to the Aero guys, we are very much on a learning curve, most all of the motors i have seen are specced for aero props so any info we can share will do us all good


Mark
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: canabus on November 16, 2017, 11:42:58 AM
Hi Peter
I found out about the water cooled ESCs not having an on/off switch, so I was told by the guys at the club to use the Hobbyking car ESC.
These are available up to 100 Amps(different program card) and handle up to 4S.
Also have an electric fan on top, so cooling problems at low speed.
If you setup the start power to between 5 and 10% very good slow speed.
The reverse I set to 25% to go a good reverse speed.
I have 8 boats with these ESCs and have not had a problem with them.
Also I changed to the XT60 connectors because I think they are safer than the Deans ones .

Canabus
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: shadysadie on November 16, 2017, 01:12:11 PM
So I'm now thinking along the lines of a Turnigy L5055B - 600KV.. Will this be OK bearing in mind that I want a good turn of speed but am not wanting to break any records (or boats)?
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Tug Fanatic on November 16, 2017, 02:51:09 PM


...........................60AMP Car Audio Circuit AGU Style Breaker Fuse 12-24vDC UK L121B

I have since seen them in the car Hi Fi section at Halfords.


To need that I don't think that Hi Fi is an appropriate term!


This should be really nice when finished. I have always liked the Sea Queen - it somehow has gravitas.
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Peter Wallis on November 16, 2017, 03:54:52 PM
Have to Guy's i'm overwhelmed by the interest in the old Sea Queen ......................


Coming from the model aircraft world we are recommended to use 'bullets' at all times and I still do.


The Turnigy marine ESC range seem to be all W/C and whilst at times I'm drawing 50A  from the 60A ESC it's just warm . Their range is reasonably priced and the quality excellent . Dare I say you can pay twice the price and this will not be as good - fact . Also their whole ESC range has a switch as standard .                                                                 


I have noted with some surprise there has been little mention of the 'watt meter' that is so widely used in the model aircraft . I have used  this instrument to help identify the correct prop and the level of current drawn from the LiPo in the S.Q. 

Long may this interest continue.............

Peter Wallis

North Hampshire
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Tug Fanatic on November 16, 2017, 04:14:37 PM

I think that you can divide the model boating population quite easily. Those with an aircraft background believe in our watt meters & most of the rest have either never heard of them or certainly never mention their use. I guess that part of the problem is that I have a box full of aircraft propellers & I am quite happy to try a few to see what works & what doesn't. Scale model boat owners take a guess, based on experience or recommendation, and buy one relatively expensive brass prop. As most scale boats do not push their motors very hard this seems to work most of the time & very few know or care whether it is the optimal solution. Boats are a lot less sensitive to weight than aircraft so always fitting the bigger motor is rarely a bad idea in a boat.


You will have noted that there is virtually no data available for scale model boat props.


I will be interested to hear what your watt meter records.
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on November 16, 2017, 05:30:48 PM
I would be interested to know if there is a watt meter that can record the highest load drawn by the motor when at sea and remember it. I suppose a test in the bath with one might give some indication of power consumption. (For safety do not sit in the bath during testing!).
As outlined above, with model boats it is a case of trial and error as speeds can usually be fairly slow and will vary greatly compared to an aircraft. Whereas I imagine a motor on a model aircraft is probably running at max output for a lot of the time.
David
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Tug Fanatic on November 16, 2017, 06:54:45 PM
 Yes you can do this. You can buy logging systems such as:
http://www.eagletreesystems.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=54 (http://www.eagletreesystems.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=54)
You can also buy motor controllers that do the data logging for you - in fact this is the way that I would go.
https://hobbyking.com/en_us/aerostar-advance-150a-esc-opto.html (https://hobbyking.com/en_us/aerostar-advance-150a-esc-opto.html)
I have not used data loggers & I am sure that it can be done for a lot less money than those listed above. I offer them as a demonstration of method only.
If you only want peak readings it is much easier & cheaper. If it was me in a boat with long time high throttle/load use I would think keeping an eye on motor temperature was a good idea as well.

 
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Peter Wallis on November 16, 2017, 08:13:35 PM
WATT METER


Used to measure the amount of current being drawn from the battery - in my case LiPo .


I know what my motor will draw and the max the ESC can handle .


The boat is placed in the water whilst held advancing the throttle to maximum .


If the measured current is below the max throttle setting then the prop is too small - either fit a larger prop or one with more pitch .


If the current drain is to high the fit a smaller prop or increase pitch .


From my experience I never run a set up more than at 90% of the ESC - in other words do your homework otherwise when you make a mistake it can be expensive . I am lucky as I have a very good friend who checks though my system ......................


P.W     





Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: canabus on November 16, 2017, 09:40:19 PM
Hi Shady

Or the Turnigy L5055-700 which I am going to use in my 46" Vosper Crash Tender with a 52mm 2 blade prop on 3S to start with and maybe 4S on a Hobbyking car ESC 100 amp.
I also have a 150Amp water cooled ESC which handles up to 6S (twin 5800mah 3S in series).
A mate in the club has a number of props around the 50-60mm size I can test as well.

Canabus
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: shadysadie on November 17, 2017, 07:52:13 AM
Many thanks Canabus. Your past advice regarding my Vosper MTB and Fairmile D was spot-on, so Turnigy L5055-700 it shall be for Sea Queen.
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: shadysadie on November 24, 2017, 07:59:32 AM
The build of my Aerokits (Jotika) Sea Queen is progressing rapidly but I have noticed that there are no strakes or spray rails included in the hull design. What are you folks thoughts on this please?
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: canabus on November 24, 2017, 09:41:37 AM
Hi Shady Sadie
The original Aerokits plan which I have a copy of, only shows a rubbing strake at the edge of the deck/side as 1/4" x 1/8".
Personal after my SG&K 1920 Gentleman's Runabout which did not have spray on the bottom of the sides(not invented in 1920).
I would be adding spray line as the runabout throws a mountain of water up the sides at low to mid speed and on cornering.
Looks great, but, the boys keep their boats out of the way!!!!
As for spray rails on the bottom of the boat, two on each side as it help lift the boat out of the water for more speed.
 Added a picture of my experiment on a Swordsman hull to give you an idea.

Canabus
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Peter Wallis on November 24, 2017, 10:48:37 AM
Well Guy's I built and still use both my Sea Queen and Swordsman that I built 50 odd years ago .


The original S.Q only has the rubbing strakes  but the skeg that fills in between the prop shaft and hull plus the 'V' hull that gives her the stability . One thing that is often forgotten is getting the C of G right . Coming from model aircraft this is second nature but not so much with the model boat world !


My Swordsman has the spray rails and these do exactly as required and her turning at speed is just perfect - remembering I also use the sea !


Peter Wallis


North Hampshire   
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: canabus on November 24, 2017, 11:26:23 AM
Hi
Peter is totally right about the CG of both aircraft and boats.
I ran my Precedent Huntsman for the first time the other day with the CG to far to the stern.
The sat bow up and hitting a few small waves from other boats it was bouncing up and down.
Moved the battery forward about 50mm which had the bow a little down.
The second run the boat sat level and cut straight into the waves.
The 3648-1450kv on 3S was getting the boat up to about 35KPH !!!

Canabus
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Peter Wallis on November 24, 2017, 12:49:37 PM
I think that's cos you live in the Southern Hemisphere ..........................there has just been a very interesting documentary about your little steam railway - I have to mention !


Went to a Model Boat Exhibition the other weekend where there were several S.Q's on display but all the motors were the old MFA 800 or 850 that were excellent in there time . Need I say more !


I have doubts whether my 4BA prop shaft power could managed your power unit - do you use a metal or plastic prop  !


Check out www.propman.uk.com they were at the exhibition .


Peter W


North Hampshire
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on November 24, 2017, 02:30:58 PM
Regarding spray, rails my original picture posting of my SQ in action in the 1970s shows the rails fitted then and still in place. These can be seen in the later stern shot, as can the chine rubbing rail.
All my boats have spray rails and I think an important point is to keep them parallel to the keel on the basis the water is passing straight down the length of the boat.
For my Sea Nymph I over-ran the side skin and formed an integral spray rail as I have seen in full size boats.
The Huntsman has nicely triangulated section rails that best match the deep V hull. I have left them as square strip section on my models as they are fairly flat section hulls to the rear.
I also brought the keel to a razor edge and cut it back to reduce turbulence in front of the propeller. The larger version having just a length of exposed prop tube to again allow water to flow unhindered to the propeller.
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Peter Wallis on November 24, 2017, 02:45:45 PM
May I say a beautiful bottom........................what I do notice is that the spray rails do not appear to run the full length of the hull it appears they finish in line with the prop - why !


On my Swordsman they run the full length of the hull and I can see why !


Peter W


North Hampshire
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on November 24, 2017, 03:00:25 PM
Hi Peter
I think for my models the spray rail fitting is a bit of guessology. The Sea Nymph will never run at a high enough speed to warrant rails to the stern. Stopping short of the propeller was just a nod towards avoiding feeding air to the prop area; though the brushless motor is well capable of cavitating the prop on tight turns if you are over eager.  I could probably have run the rails further forward but as a general fun model it becomes arbitrary.  The incorporated turn down at the chine rail does however earn its keep.
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: shadysadie on November 24, 2017, 03:24:58 PM
As I understand it, the rails on the bottom of the hull are strakes, the rails on the chine running from bow to stern are the spray rails and the rubbing strip is at deck level. Or have I (probably) got it wrong!
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: shadysadie on November 24, 2017, 05:09:08 PM
Yes, I have indeed got it wrong! I've just looked up Bluebird's excellent post (13-8-11) regarding spray rails etc. and all has become clear.
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on November 24, 2017, 08:58:08 PM
I guess I have never really looked a the precise terms that closely but, by putting 'strakes on a boat hull' in Google images, it throws up a whole heap of info. I enclose one small sketch found that also includes a 'knuckle' section that I have seen but just thought to be a design flair.
The strakes usually seem to be a triangular section as seen on most Fairey models and help produce lift.  They also do not appear to need to be parallel to the keel in the bow area as I guess under planing conditions these are in the air.  Anything along the edge being a chine rail.
A rubbing rail would logically be positioned to protect a hull from contact with a dockside or similar when putting the rudder over And depending upon hull shape not always at the water line. For simple designs like the Sea Queen it just looks right along the chine rail though I have seen many SQs without these and they look just as nice. All down to the personal taste of the builder.
Glad I have learned something new today.
David
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: shadysadie on February 12, 2018, 07:46:00 PM
Another request for Sea Queen info. please. My build is now complete apart from final painting but please can you give me a starting point for finding the CofG / balance point?


Thanks, David.
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on February 12, 2018, 09:31:59 PM
David
I think with boats like the Sea Queen, the CofG for balance is a bit arbitrary; depending upon the speeds you hope to run at. The motor is as close to the propshaft as is practical. The radio weighs next to nothing so is in the rear cabin; as it was in the petrol head days (it was cleaner in there!).
I initially placed the batteries forward of the motor and the boat floated level. But of course the bows did not want to lift. Placing the battery pack to the rear of the cockpit section proved to be about right. The bows lift at just a modest cruising speed and it sits right when stationary.  At full speed (no photos available as I am at the helm!) a fair amount more is out of the water. However, I do still have trim tabs from the petrol days
Bathtub floatation test will eventually show water line if part of the painting scheme. 
Do add a thread on your build. The more (SQs) the merrier.
David
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Peter Wallis on February 12, 2018, 10:11:58 PM
David - last year I installed my third engine an electrc 600 outrunner weighing only 130g my previous old brushed motor  weighed some 530g . Not forgetting forgetting long ago I used a 12V GelCell then a NIMH and finally a 3S LiPo 5500A .


I class my 50 year old Sea Queen as a fast electric and at all times I have balanced her COG where I installed the carry handle bolted into the main bulkhead that carries the windscreen identified as the bulkhead where the prop-shaft first enters from the universal coupling.


Whilst this is not central to the overall length it provides a perfect position when at speed  on the water - in the same way as with model aircraft she is slightly nose heavy but rises beautifully to plane when on the water .


Good luck - I built mine 52 year ago and she is still my favorite ......................YES


Peter Wallis


North Hampshire 
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: canabus on February 13, 2018, 01:43:14 AM
Hi Peter

You are spot on with your comments!!!!
A bit of nose down at rest and with power it sits just right on the water.
The American classic boats re-engineered by StarCraft (you tube) with the main design on making the boat sit better on the water and a softer ride.
50 old Sea Queen with a young heart, beautiful !!!!!
I still have the original plans.


Canabus
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Peter Wallis on February 13, 2018, 08:49:12 AM
Tkx for those comments it's made my day .................................
I did consider changing the 600 outrunner to an 800 or more but I also have a Swordsman and they both share the same capacity LiPo that makes for economical  running .
I noticed awhile ago where you are in Tasmania and have to say it continues to amaze me just how far this hobby stretch's thanks to the internet . You may recall that I switched to a w/c ESC that I purchased from Hobby King . This 60A  Turnigy has proved faultless as with the 600 motor I can draw up to to 50A .
I would like to build a Huntsman using the wooden kit that is still available but the Swordsman is so similar ....................any thoughts  !


Peter


North Hampshire
 
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: shadysadie on February 13, 2018, 08:57:02 AM
Many thanks Davo, Peter and canabus for this latest information. Once again this forum has proved to be a veritable mine of knowledge.
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: canabus on February 13, 2018, 10:33:17 AM
Hi Peter
If you can get a Spearfish kit, as it is the sportsman's cabin cruiser/racer.
My mate has a MFA Spearfish fibreglass one and is handles like a dream.
We fitted a 3648-1450kv 1600 Watt brushless motor on a 4S 5800mah Lipo a 100 Amp Car ESC and a 2 blade CNC 40mm 1.4 pitch prop.
37 KPH !!!
That is one fast old girl !!!

Canabus 
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on February 13, 2018, 12:34:34 PM
Peter.
Both are superb models. My preference would be the open cockpit of the Swordsman. However, if you are going to run in rougher waters the Huntsman is less likely to take on water; as might happen to the Swordsman.
Or build both!
David
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: ChrisF on February 13, 2018, 01:46:18 PM
David - Peter already has a Swordsman, so I think the Huntsman is in addition.

Good idea to build more than one type though as that's what I'm doing! I've got a couple on the go at the moment, including a Swordsman (but the aft cabin version) and the plan is to build 4 or 5 different ones!

Whilst the intention was to stick with the wooden hulled boats I did pick up a Spearfish kit recently but will probably fit a timber superstructure.

Chris
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on March 15, 2018, 08:42:34 PM
The screen on my SQ was a quick job some 30 years ago. Looking at some of the models on this forum I thought it was about time to try and improve it. Using some brass channel I made up a frame I thought suited the boat.  I have also taken on a helmsman though I may have to move the battery to balance his weight!  I think the stepped cockpit floor and door suit the scale of this boat.  The Perspex can be slipped in to the channel and fixed with Canopy Glue. Navigation light to be added soon.

David
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: shadysadie on March 16, 2018, 09:12:58 AM
Looking really good. Where did you get the helmsman figure from please?
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on March 16, 2018, 07:43:30 PM
A 5 action man at a toy fair. Had to buy some casual wear on eBay as the military kit and guns looked a bit agressive!  A brass tube seat has holes for a Velcro strip seat belt to keep him on board.

David
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: shadysadie on March 16, 2018, 08:07:10 PM
Many thanks for the info Davo. Action man is go!
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Peter Wallis on March 17, 2018, 09:03:05 AM
David you've made a very good job of the screen surround - what is your power set up !


Whilst I'm happy with my 600 Outrunner I am considering increasing the capacity of the LiPo 3S 5500A . My problem is that I use this capacity LiPo in my Swordsman . I built both Sea Queen and Swordman over 50 years ago .


How time flies......................


Peter W


North Hampshire
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on March 17, 2018, 08:42:43 PM
Hi Peter,
If you have a scroll through the first page of this thread I have some motor details and pictures of the battery set up etc. It performed very well on 30amp line fuses but would blow them at extra throttle; so I have not seen top speed. I then fitted a re-settable 60amp fuse but never got to try it as I could not use my neighbours lake during the shooting season. The re-settable fuse gives a push button battery isolation which is handy. I am thinking of adding a fuse by-pass circuit with a servo operated switch. If I trip the fuse I can activate the by-pass circuit with a third servo and bring the model back on a low throttle.   I am avoiding Lipo batteries as I am happy with the scale speeds achieved so far.
This Sea Queen is now 52 years old and still going well. It has been great to see the return to traditional boat building in recent years; though I can appreciate weight savings etc that come with fibre glass etc. I am surprised there is not a fibre glass SQ hull available as it is a simple shape.
David
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Peter Wallis on March 18, 2018, 09:35:40 AM
Yes David I remember reading about your fuse set-up . I built my S.Q  in 1963 when I fitted a Merco 61 with reed radio .  The smell - the noise were to die for .


I then fitted the old MFA electric first using a heavy gel cell followed by NI-MH . Good in their day but more recently moved onto a 600 Outrunner using LiPo .


Had a big search to find a reasonable priced ESC  but settled for a Turnigy 60A w/c set up and have never looked back . I keep things as simple as possible as I also use her off shore where she is in her element .


I have access to an excellent lake here in North Hampshire where I sail my big vintage model yacht .


Peter W


North Hampshire
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on March 18, 2018, 02:37:47 PM
Peter,
We seem to have trod a similar pathway with the Sea Queen. I recall in Model Boat Magazine (my hobby bible back then) that these were often used for model off-shore power boat racing (pre fibreglass days) and are certainly in their element when the water gets rough. The smell of glow fuel and the joy when it actually ran are etched in my memory. I took the Merco back a few times to their Enfield workshop where a faulty end crankcase casting was diagnosed as letting in/out air and affecting running. Also it had a bent conn rod. All fixed and a ton of spares purchased. Recently sold it and all the new spares on eBay to a very enthusiastic collector. I would never have run it again so pointless keeping it.
The Turnigy ESCs do look very good so I may upgrade to a W/C version. The Hawk one I have does not have an ON/OFF switch so I have to rely on the Fuse push button.
David
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Peter Wallis on March 18, 2018, 03:06:23 PM
Yes David I guess we are - I'm still a builder really .


I cannot speak too highly of the 60A w/c Turnigy from 'Hobby King' and of course it has a switch and automatic cut out when the battery goes below a certain voltage . It is also compatible with a NIMH battery .


I still have both my Merco's and the smell still lingers in the Sea Queen . Happy days .


Peter
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: grendel on March 18, 2018, 03:14:54 PM
I picked up an aerokits sea commander at the boot fair the other week, its on my restoration list now, just needs an engine, battery and radio gear.
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on March 18, 2018, 03:23:01 PM
Peter,
Thanks for the note about NiMH compatibility; it is not mentioned on their site, only Lipo. They are very reasonably priced; as is the programmer.
David

Good to hear a Sea Commander is heading back to the water. Perhaps start a post on the journey!
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Peter Wallis on March 18, 2018, 06:00:28 PM
Hello David - yes the Turnigy info sheet clearly states NIMH compatibility .


My 60A ESC is suitable for 4-9 cells NIMH and the 30A the same number that seems strange . With my 600W outrunner I can draw up to 50A that I have registered when I use the watt meter as we do when flying our LiPo powered planes .


At least we all have interests other than being glued to the TV............................


Peter


North Hampshire
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on June 05, 2018, 10:18:47 AM
So, to conclude this thread on my SQ I enclose pictures of her performing well in her 53rd year on the water (though many spent in dry dock).
Performance met all my expectations without the 60amp fuse kicking out. I could also switch to the stand-by 30amp system (see other thread) as the RX has its own power. Performance was quite near its 10cc petrol engine days. It runs very well on half throttle giving a scale look.
However, the next weak link in the chain was the 60amp ESC which did a few thermal cuts outs; restoring power after a few minutes of drifting. It eventually proved too much and the ESC died. So a replacement of a much higher rating (120A?) and water cooling needs to be bought.
The Action Man looked well and suits the boat; though you do need a footwell in the centre deck. Moving the battery slightly balanced his weight.  The lack of spray in the photos is down to the four spray rails added to the hull as can be seen in the photo. I think the adjustable transom mounted trim tabs are also doing their bit to keep the bow down.
Looking forward to more running days with a new ESC.
David
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: ChrisF on June 05, 2018, 10:58:21 PM
I thought I was losing the plot this morning as I could have sworn I'd posted yesterday after seeing the on water pictures etc!

Just had another look and I had, on another thread!
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on June 06, 2018, 09:24:42 AM
Chris
Sorry about the deja vue effect; hope you have recovered. I just wanted to put a footnote on this thread as well as the one re power back-up.
I have a HobbyKing 120amp watercooled ESC on the way to replace the 60amp one that died. It has certainly been a learning process for me.  I still find the power of the small brushless motors to be a revelation. The SQ certainly has a new lease of life.
David

Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: ChrisF on June 06, 2018, 01:06:29 PM
Just about, I'm easily confused!

Can't wait to get a powered boat on the water to see how these brushless motors go.

Chris
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on June 08, 2018, 08:23:31 PM
Taking out the 'dead' ESC if found the Tamiya type battery connector terminal difficult to part. When it did separate I could see burnt plastic. Evidently I had made the connectors with male pins on both sides! Doh!
They obviously worked until the arcing of the poor contact burnt out.
With new female pins fitted the 60amp ESC was back in action.
The new 120amp ESC can wait on the shelf awhile.
Decided to repaint the original window frames and refit them again.
David
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: JimG on June 09, 2018, 09:26:05 AM
The next step is to get rid of the Tamiya connectors, these are renowned for failing with higher currents.The metal connectors are not gold plated so will get dirty creating higher resistance and more heat. They also tend to slacken off with use creating more resistance and heat. Both can lead to enough heat produced to melt the plastic together . Replace them with a more up to date connector with gold plated contacts such as an XT60, good for 60A continuous.
Jim
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on June 09, 2018, 03:59:17 PM
Jim
Many for the info thanks. I have ordered up enough to replace all the connections in the boat on the various hook-up leads. Should be all ship shape next time we take to the water.
David
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on June 10, 2018, 04:44:24 PM
Just checking the correct way to wire XT60 joints and came across an interesting video. It confirms the connectors will be perfect for my set-up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEdysiZAYZ4

Looks like I have some soldering to do!

David

Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on June 15, 2018, 09:25:18 PM
The SQ has now been re-fitted with XT60 connectors. During the process I found a broken joint on the fuse connector but all is now sound. It certainly sounds a bit more feisty. The XT60 connectors are difficult to part but that reflects the better contact areas perhaps. Maybe they will get easier.
Window frames were re-painted and fitted with new glazing. I may replace the missing vertical bar in the main window that was removed in a previous 'modernisation'.
The throttle control was moved to align better with the skippers hand. This left a hole in the dashboard; so using a 6BA screw and washer, I made up a little ignition switch to fill the hole. From it dangles a little key fob.
Nearly finished!
David
 
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on July 29, 2018, 01:10:57 PM
They say a model railway is never finished but my SQ is going the same way. I have posted the following in the Brushless Motors section but am adding it here in the hope of a bigger audience.

My Sea Queen was fitted with a Tornado Thumper 3542/05 1250 kv and a NiMh 12v battery. All was running well but the Taymia connectors were not coping. On advice XT60 connectors were fitted all through (I am ok on soldering) and all seemed well on the 60amp ESC. On the water the boat went off ok but soon stalled. I could here the ESC reset and set off again. Motor slowed and stalled.
Thinking the ESC was now the weak point I fitted a water cooled Hobbyking 120amp ESC. On the water the same thing again, motor just fades away. ESC resets and the same happens again.
On the bench, applying power, the motor revs up but then dies, even with throttle at max. Same in reverse. At neutral the ESC resets and the same thing happens. This happens with boths ESCs which have been set up with their programming cards.
So I bought a new 3548/05 900kv Tornado Thumper motor and fitted that. Same thing happens. Battery is 100% and neither escape makes any difference. Even plugging the battery direct to the ESC (no fuse in circuit) the same thing happens. The RX is on its own power. The TX has new batteries.
I am pretty sure all soldered joints are sound and so I am seeking any advice that might solve the problem. The XT60 connector replacements are the only real change in the system. Could it be a bad joint in the system failing under load?
Any thoughts folks?
David.
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: shadysadie on July 29, 2018, 01:21:18 PM
Is it possible that the NiMh battery cannot cope with the massive power drain - just a thought and I am sure that someone more knowledgeable will be along shortly to advise further. Have you considered LiPo power as this is the path I followed with my SQ?
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on July 29, 2018, 03:38:02 PM
It is a thought but the boat has had several successful runs on the battery and 60amp ESC. The failure came as I had put male to male pins in when making up the Tamiya connectors and that joint failed due to arcing. The XT60 connectors have large brass pockets to solder the wires into and all passed the tug test for bonding.
I have thought of LiPo but I am wary of the charging and exploding concerns.
Thanks for your thoughts.
David
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: canabus on July 30, 2018, 09:17:10 AM
HI Davo
If you use a good balance charger with auto cutoff and a safety bag you with have no problems.
Have talk to your club members or a local model car racers.
I was very wary of them to start with, but, I did not have any issues.
I have just replaced the 6 volt Gel packs in both my Hellen fishing boats with 2S(7.4 volt) Lipo batteries.
A third the height of the Gel cells, so, the boat will be very stable.

Canabus
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on July 30, 2018, 11:49:29 PM
Thanks for all the tips. I checked the battery output at the first connector (to eliminate possible bad joints) and found 12v available. As I powered the motor up the voltage fell to 5v and the ESC auto cut-out. So a low battery was the culprit despite my thinking I had charged it and the evidence of the battery meter (see pic).
A few hours on the charger brought it up to power and all is well again.  It would be interesting to wire in a permanent meter in the boat.
Well, I now have a bigger 3548  motor though 900kv not 1250kv. Perhaps a bigger prop is next.
Many thanks
David
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: canabus on July 31, 2018, 07:06:01 AM
Hi Davo
The Hobbyking Turnigy 180 Amp Watt meter and Power Analyzer has an input and output.
So you can just put it inline between the battery and ESC.
Canabus
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on July 31, 2018, 10:16:05 AM
I will have a look at that option.
From advice in my query in the Brushless Forum it seems I was fooled by the battery checker. As it showed 89% I though it was still good for a run. However, it seems the voltage indicated otherwise. Another lesson learned. Just need to have some sea trials.
David
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on July 31, 2018, 11:07:40 AM
During the refit in the 1990s I installed a heavy duty prop shaft to cope with the then petrol engine. A 6mm dia shaft in a 8mm dia tube. This had always exhibited a rattle at certain revs which is both annoying and inefficient. Maybe I induced a curve in the shaft when I fitted it. You can see scoring halfway down the shaft.
With the tube fibreglassed in, removal is not an option. However, a 6mm dia tube running a 4mm dia shaft could be fitted inside it. A 450mm long CAP Maquettes shaft did the job; though I am not impressed with the play between shaft and bearings. This outer tube, flush at the prop end stuck out about 5mm into the boat. I cut a suitable collar from a 6mm plain coupling fitting and soldered it to a plate that locks over the original grease nipple. This allows the new shaft to be locked in position and be removable (if those lose bearings prove a problem).

There was sufficient length on the shaft to extend the thread at the prop end and allow the use of a lock nut. Two new alloy propeller's, bought for the new 4mm shaft, were threaded right through and so it seemed a good idea. I also drilled some old fibreglass props through for the same. Now fear of loosing a prop in reverse.

I also came across a company called motion.co that do various shaft connectors and thought I would try the one in the photo. There is no end float which could be a disadvantage unless you set up the propeller etc very accurately.
Without moving the motor the coupling gap is smaller and I have trimmed down a standard plain coupling to fit as a fall back.

So, with the power problem resolved, and a larger motor fitted, it needs some sea trials.

David


Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: ChrisF on July 31, 2018, 10:20:13 PM
Interesting connector. I like the way it tightens onto the shafts rather than relying on the grub screw tightening directly onto the shaft.

I've been contemplating filing flats onto my motor and prop shafts but don't really want to do that especially with my lovely motors and their shiny shafts!
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on August 01, 2018, 12:21:29 PM
Having resolved the weak links in the power train I now find the Hobbyking 120amp water-cooled ESC does not want to engage reverse. I have tried several options on the programme card and am aware of the 'double tap' of the throttle stick required to engage reverse (not a good option!). Being water-cooled it is destined to be in a boat so this feature is not required. I guess when buying an ESC you do need to get access to the operating manual to find out these things. Not always available on line.

The best I can get is the odd reverse stutter of the motor. I have sent an enquiry to HK for advice.  Swopping back the 60amp ESC all works perfectly so it seems to point at the HK ESC.
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on August 13, 2018, 03:10:32 PM
I have been in touch with Hobbyking and they have been most helpful. Hopefully I will soon have the boat 100%. 
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on August 25, 2018, 09:56:34 AM
HOBBYKING have kindly refunded my original purchase so I could change to a Turnigy W/C ESC 90amp. This was set up with the Turnigy programming card.  Initial installation saw the motor acting erratically, running back and forth in a stuttering manner. Putting the Hawk 60amp ESC back in the system saw motor working ok. Plugging the Turnigy ESC back in, it seemed that all was now fine. But having put the ESC back in to the support bracket, the motor went erratic again. For some reason I untangled the three motor wires and found things now worked normally.
So, my question is, were the three motor wires setting up some interference between themselves and causing the problem?   Any advice gratefully received.
David
Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Tug Fanatic on August 25, 2018, 10:05:43 AM


.......................I also came across a company called motion.co that do various shaft connectors and thought I would try the one in the photo. There is no end float which could be a disadvantage unless you set up the propeller etc very accurately......


David



Is it a one piece coupling or can a little end float be introduced by not pushing the castellated ends fully together?


Title: Re: Aerokits Sea Queen. Going brushless in 2017
Post by: Davo on August 25, 2018, 06:45:00 PM
There is a small amount of universal joint movement but no end float. So a propshaft would need precise installation. Probably suit finescale model battleships as they are quiet. I guess these are more probably used in printers etc.
They do the usual plastic universal coupling with brass inserts. These can be set up with some end float to protect the motor.
Hope this helps.
David