Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Lifeboats => Topic started by: Charlie on July 01, 2018, 09:00:42 pm
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Hello fellow Forum Peeps, hope you are all ok. It's got a lot quieter here recently - has everyone gone over to the Facebook Groups now? As good as they are, I still think you can't beat a Forum Build Thread if you want to keep track of what's been done.
Anyway, this is my latest project, a 1/15 scale, Plank On Frame model of the Rother Class Lifeboat that was stationed at Eastbourne from 1979 until 1992, when she was replaced by a Mersey Class. She was one of 3 Beach Launched Rother Class Lifeboats. She was kept in a Boathouse, and launched by a team of shore crew pulling her out of the shed and onto the slipway, until gravity took over. With sufficient depth of water, she would launch with a spectacular splash.
The keel was laminated from several pieces of ply, as the section varies in thickness along the length. The Ribs are 4mm ply, and the stringers are Obechi. I've just had a very speedy delivery of Lime Planks from SLEC, ready for when I start the planking.
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Looking good Charlie :-)).......the Green has superior water resistant qualities over the Red %) ... Derek
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oh, something nice to watch for a change, Charlie...…….
the framing looks wonderful. are you going to do it longitudinal or double diagonal planking...…..like the old girls were when built?
and my final question for tonight...………..it sure looks bigger than 1;15 scale or was that a slip of the finger.
look forward to this one immensely.
neil.
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Hi Derek,
You spotted the Red Titebond lurking in the background - well done :-) However you have jumped to the wrong conclusion <*<
I've got a whole bunch of Adhesives on my bench, but i didn't use the Titebond for this build. I initially used Gorilla Glue, but found this created too much foam. I then switched to Gorilla Wood Glue, but i am now using the Aliphatic. I might add a bottle of the Green Titebond to my collection though :-)) After all, you can never have enough glue! :}
Hi Neil,
There was no finger slippage, scale is deffo 1:15, giving the perfect model length of 30"
I had planned to go for proper double diagonal planking, but i'm having second thoughts now. Last time i tried this, the hull finish ended up rather bumpy. So i was thinking of laying the first layer longitudinally, to smooth the lines out, and then add a layer of diagonal planking on top. What do you think?
Charlie
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Hi Derek,
You spotted the Red Titebond lurking in the background - well done :-) However you have jumped to the wrong conclusion <*<
I've got a whole bunch of Adhesives on my bench, but i didn't use the Titebond for this build. I initially used Gorilla Glue, but found this created too much foam. I then switched to Gorilla Wood Glue, but i am now using the Aliphatic. I might add a bottle of the Green Titebond to my collection though :-)) After all, you can never have enough glue! :}
Hi Neil,
There was no finger slippage, scale is deffo 1:15, giving the perfect model length of 30"
I had planned to go for proper double diagonal planking, but i'm having second thoughts now. Last time i tried this, the hull finish ended up rather bumpy. So i was thinking of laying the first layer longitudinally, to smooth the lines out, and then add a layer of diagonal planking on top. What do you think?
Charlie
I have never double diagonal planked but have done similar to what you have described in your planning and it worked for me, and gave a very smooth finish....and it gave super strength to the hull.
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Nothing more satisfying than double diagonal planking as you can see the effect on the inside of the boat. :-))
Lay the first diagonal layer using 1/16th thick planks and then correct the shape by sanding and filling this layer just as the original builders did. Then glue the calico layer onto the hull and plank, again 1/16th thick, in the opposite direction, shaping the planks carefully as you go.
There is no finer feeling than doing the job correctly as the hull is strong but still flexible :-)) :-)) :-))
That's how I build my older boats.
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,11346.0.html (http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,11346.0.html)
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There is no finer feeling than doing the job correctly as the hull is strong but still flexible :-)) :-)) :-))
That's how I build my older boats.
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,11346.0.html (http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,11346.0.html)
and what a beautiful job you make of them too, mike.
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Thanks for the advice chaps. I think i will cogitate on this for a while!
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Hi
Have you tried Gorilla clear? I am using it on my MMM Lady "T" and so far I am very happy with it.
Fred
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That looks like some good stuff Fred. It does state "Water-Resistant (can withstand intermittent exposure)" on the spec sheet. How waterproof have you found it to be in your experience?
Charlie
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I think gorilla glue is vastly over rated and dearer than most glues..
I've tried the bubbly stuff...….no sticking power, the superglue...twice as potent on my sinuses, sticks fingers great but other materials including wood not so well, and takes longer to grab and set than Loctite at a 1/3 the price, tried the white wood glue.....takes ages to grab and set and no where near as good as aliphatic resin, and the gorilla duct tape is next to useless except for sticking to itself....
there are far better glues and adhesives on the market for less price and longer shelf life, and I have tried many...…..
in fact the old powder and water but waterproof Cascamite glue is better than gorilla white, only problem is it takes 24 hours under clamped conditions to cure lol. >>:-( >:-o
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Charlie, I have Duke of Kent too, mine is 1/8th scale. I would post some pictures but can never seem to manage to get them on here.
Not sure if you know but the real Duke has returned to Eastbourne, and in the process of being restored.
They brought her home last year in a very sorry state.
I have loads of pictures of her, inside and out.
Ian
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Hi Ian,
A 1/8th scale Rother must be quite a beast. Please feel free to post a picture in this thread if you can. I love the Rother's, i think it was seeing the Duke of Kent at Eastbourne that got me interested in Lifeboats in the first place. There was a thread here on Mayhem about someone else who was also building a 1/8th Rother - this wouldn't be the same boat, would it? There can't be many built to this scale.
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,38286.msg382488.html#msg382488 (http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,38286.msg382488.html#msg382488)
I have been back down to Eastbourne to see the Duke of Kent this year. She does look a bit sorry for herself, as a result of being left to rot on a quay up in Scotland for years. Hopefully the restoration goes well, and she will be back to her previous condition. I have only got photos from ground level though. Presumably you went onboard? Any photos you have of her taken from onboard would be really useful. There is a Facebook page with some photos of the restoration in progress, which makes for interesting viewing.
https://www.facebook.com/williamallchorn/?ref=gs&fref=gs&hc_location=group (https://www.facebook.com/williamallchorn/?ref=gs&fref=gs&hc_location=group)
Charlie
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Yep that's her Charlie, I notice Russell said it's approx 30 years old, and that was in 2012 lol. Just shows how good the original builder was if she's still going strong.
I have completely stripped it down and re-sprayed it so now is the Duke of Kent. Mainly because the real one is about 10 minutes drive from me so I could get lots of pics.
this evening
I'll see if I can load some pictures this evening, if not I could email you the pictures of the real one.
Ian
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Hi Ian,
I just sent you a PM with my email address. If you cannot upload the photos, email them to me and i will upload them here.
Here are a few photos of the full size boat, in her current state, which i took during my last visit to Eastbourne.
Charlie
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That looks like some good stuff Fred. It does state "Water-Resistant (can withstand intermittent exposure)" on the spec sheet. How waterproof have you found it to be in your experience?
Charlie
Hi
So far I am very happy with it, as I am s++t at carpentry all the wood work that I have done are butt joints with a small triangle under the joint, just to see how strong the joints are I put a 4klo weigh on them with no braking so far.
As for water proof I will see when I get to the deck housing,
All the best
Fred
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I managed to get a look around Duke of Kent when it was at Tayport. A few photo's might be of interest to you
https://www.flickr.com/photos/26465928@N02/albums/72157695526161792 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/26465928@N02/albums/72157695526161792)
Richie
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I've sent you some pics Charlie, a few of the inside might be of some help.
That keep off sign doesn't really work, there's been a couple of evenings already where the local youth decided to break in to it. The first time the decks were still pretty rotten, only problem was none of them fell through.
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is this the Rother that is for sale and has been for some years now but at a ridiculously high price......something like around 15 grand, but the chap won't take a penny less..
what price for match wood and kindling,
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Ian – many thanks for the photos you sent to me. I have uploaded a few of your fantastic 1/8th Scale Rother – what a beauty! Do you sail her on Princes Park lake by any chance? I would love to see her afloat one day.
Fred – Thanks for the info about the Gorilla Glue. I probably have enough Glues of various types to last me for a while now, but I might try that one in the future.
Richie – Thanks for those photos, there are some excellent shots of the various fittings that will be most useful when I get that far with my build. Your pics were taken in 2003, a decade after she had been sold out of service, and although in better condition that she is now, you can see the Plywood Decks beginning to rot. And to think she was basically left like that for another 15 years before being saved!
Neil – I don’t know if this is the same boat you are referring to, or not. She’s certainly not for sale any more. I have heard that there is another Rother in similar condition, located in Denmark, which has been for sale for some time, possibly with too high an asking price as well. I think I saw that one the Historic Lifeboats Facebook Group.
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Ok, that's enough cogitating, lets get Planking %%
First plank is on. I've a feeling this could take a while to complete.....
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This is why you cant beat a forum, a build to get your teeth into.
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Charlie - following my post in Beginners I shall be following this build with great interest and making copious notes!
Chris
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Welcome aboard Chris :-))
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The inside running astern O0....will be watching on Charlie.......if you have not yet purchased these, a set of temporary planking screw in pins will certainly be of use in tight spots :-))..... Derek
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those look handy bits of kit Derek……….have you got a link by any chance.
cheers,
neil.
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Neil.....these will be available worldwide %) ...I have the plastic set which can distort, however the stepped metal set are certainly superior :-)) in their clamping ability..Derek
https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjCr9-3iIncAhVY_GEKHakQCpQQFgg_MAc&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hobbytools.com.au%2F10-piece-planking-clamp-set%2F&usg=AOvVaw28gM48f9NrnLS5l7VuYsGG
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Those planking screws look ok if you are fixing longitudinal planks, and have nice thick frames to screw into. In my case they would have to screw into my very thin Stringers, which wouldn't be strong enough. So i will stick with the G-Clamps i think.
2 things i have learned so far, 1) i need a lot more clamps, and 2) i must soak the planks in hot water for a few minutes, otherwise they won't take the bend, and will snap.
Once my new clamps (from ebay) arrive, i can plank both sides simultaneously. Which might mean i get the first layer finished before Christmas :-)
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This book is well worth a read, for anyone interested in Rother's. They often come up 2nd hand on eBay or Amazon, for a knockdown price.
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This is the Rother that is for sale in Denmark. I believe this is ex 37-31 RNLB J Reginald Corah, which served at Swanage.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10210570438961979&set=gm.1963529250354419&type=3&theater&ifg=1 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10210570438961979&set=gm.1963529250354419&type=3&theater&ifg=1)
is this the Rother that is for sale and has been for some years now but at a ridiculously high price......something like around 15 grand, but the chap won't take a penny less..
what price for match wood and kindling,
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Cheers Charlie,...….I think my eyes are probably deceiving me, but that boat, from the boot topping white lining looks to be hogsbacking...……..ten grand for a boat that's bent in the middle like a one string fiddle, doesn't inspire a lot of future for her...…….he'd have been better selling for that price a long time ago before she descended into this awful condition.....sad, but what a mess. >>:-( <*< <:( <:( <:(
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Hi Charlie - I was going to ask what you were using for the planking but I see from the first post that you are using lime. Is this deemed to be the best timber to use? What thickness are you using and are you double planking?
Cheers, Chris
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Hi Chris - i am using Lime. See discussion here:
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,61101.0.html
My planks are 6mm x 1.5mm, and i will be double planking.
Latest update: 16 planks now fitted. That Aliphatic Resin is very strong; i've found that it sticks my metal clamps to the wood so strongly, that when i try to remove the clamps, parts of the timber will come away stuck to the clamp. So now i'm using some packing pieces between clamp and planks.
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You're right Neil, it is very sad to see a once immaculately maintained Lifeboat be allowed so suffer such a sad demise. This was a photo i took of the J Reginald Corah back in 1989 or 1990, which shows how well she was looked after.
Cheers Charlie,...….I think my eyes are probably deceiving me, but that boat, from the boot topping white lining looks to be hogsbacking...……..ten grand for a boat that's bent in the middle like a one string fiddle, doesn't inspire a lot of future for her...…….he'd have been better selling for that price a long time ago before she descended into this awful condition.....sad, but what a mess. >>:-( <*< <:( <:( <:(
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You're right Neil, it is very sad to see a once immaculately maintained Lifeboat be allowed so suffer such a sad demise. This was a photo i took of the J Reginald Corah back in 1989 or 1990, which shows how well she was looked after.
I just cannot understand someone with such mentality as to allow such a thing to happen.
your model looks superb, Charlie....are you finding the planking an easy task or hard going, and are you steaming the planks at all.
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Thanks for the information Charlie.
Yes, the a/resin glue is brilliant stuff, it's the only glue I'm using at the moment. Bit slow going though as I tend to leave it clamped up for quite a few hours and usually over night.
Forgot to ask, did you draw up the plans yourself?
Chris
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Cameras can play terrible tricks >>:-( .....'broken back or hogged'?...........I would not put 10 cents on a bet that this vessel has a broken back.....without seeing complimentary evidence of such hull mechanical distortion.............Derek
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Hi Neil - the planking is pretty straight forward, you just need a large dose of patience :-)
I give each plank a 5 minute soak in hot water, and then they are flexible enough to bend. No steaming required.
Hi Chris - i glued 2 pieces of Lime together using the Resin Glue, and left to soak in water for 5 days. When i took them out, they were still firmly glued together, with no softening. So it's definitely good stuff. I managed to obtain a set of RNLI Plans, which i then reduced on a photo copier from 1/12th down to 1/15th scale.
Charlie
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Hi Derek - i would wager good money that you are not now, nor have ever been, a gambling man! {-)
Cameras can play terrible tricks >>:-( .....'broken back or hogged'?...........I would not put 10 cents on a bet that this vessel has a broken back.....without seeing complimentary evidence of such hull mechanical distortion.............Derek
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Not too much progress to report today, so i'm going to share some Rother Trivia. I just picked up these 2 Magazines on eBay. The Feb 1980 edition of Model Boats Magazine contains part 1 of 2, of a Rother Build at a scale of 3/4" to 1ft. Plans used to be available from the Model Boats catalogue, to go with the article. I also picked up this Feb 1980 edition of the Model Engineer, which has a photo of the Duke of Kent on the cover. Sadly there is no more info inside.
Charlie
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Just passed my unmade one on with plans and write up.
Had it for some twenty years and just could not find the time to make her.
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Hi Fred - would that be the Metcalf Rother kit you had? They can build up into a nice model. This was one i saw at the LBES Meeting at Knightcote.
Just passed my unmade one on with plans and write up.
Had it for some twenty years and just could not find the time to make her.
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Todays bit of Rother Trivia: There are actually 2 Rothers in private ownership, which are used as trip boats.
The former Walmer Lifeboat RNLB The Hampshire Rose, Operational Number 37-32 is now based at Ilfracombe. I have a photo of this boat when she was running trips from Gunwharf Quay in Portsmouth Harbour, from a few years ago
Website: https://www.lifeboattrips.co.uk/ (https://www.lifeboattrips.co.uk/)
YouTube clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVNg8kwB5XE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVNg8kwB5XE)
The former Hoylake and Rhyl Lifeboat RNLB Mary Gabriel, Operational Number 37-29 is now based at Tenby.
Website: https://www.facebook.com/lifeboattripstenby/ (https://www.facebook.com/lifeboattripstenby/)
YouTube clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfwldLp7cjQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfwldLp7cjQ)
At some point I hope to have a trip myself, on one or both of these Lifeboats.
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More planks fitted today. If i get my timing right, i can fit 3 pairs per day :-)
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jeeeez thats looks painfully tedious but i take me hat of to you it seems you doing a grand job , me i think ill stick to fibreglass hulls as i havent got the patience or the skills for that planking lark.
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Hi Fred - would that be the Metcalf Rother kit you had? They can build up into a nice model. This was one i saw at the LBES Meeting at Knightcote.
Sorry but I have no idea were the hull came from I picked it up at an R.N.L.I. bring and buy sale back in 94/95,
All the best
Fred
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To keep the hull symmetrical, i have made a start on the Port Side planking. I think this side is going better; some of the earlier planks on the other side were straightening out between stringers, so what i have now started doing is pre-bending the planks around a baked bean tin! to give a bit of curvature before stretching them over the stringers. Seems to be working a bit better and giving a smoother profile. I have also bought a load of these Clamps, which due to the plastic clamping face, don't get stuck to the hull.
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Steady progress has been made with the Planking. I have now applied the first 5 Planks into each Tunnel, but the next ones are going to be quite challenging due to the amount of twist required.
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Did you know, there is a superb 1:12 scale model of the Duke of Kent, in the Eastbourne Lifeboat Museum? It was one of 3 Rother models made for the RNLI for display, by the late Brian King, master modeler.
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I've done approx 70% of the first layer of planking now. Tunnels are starting to take shape.
Took a drive down to Eastbourne to view the Full Size Duke of Kent today, looking for a bit of inspiration. She needs a lot of work doing, so I'm not sure whether it will be the model or the full sized boat that will be afloat first!
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lovely planking Charlie.that will be a strong hull.
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Progressing well now.
As per the advice in one of the earlier posts are you going to cover in calico/cloth before the second layer of planking?
I've been wondering if this is necessary in a model (mine will be 27" long) as due to the size and all the glue used it will be a very solid construction and I'm going to cloth and resin the outside and resin the inside. I can understand it being necessary in a full sized boat due to the movement in heavy seas and that due to differing temperatures and humidity, where it would be quite considerable.
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Hi Chris,
I don't think i will be applying a layer of Calico between the planks.
How is your build going?
Charlie
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Over the weekend I did a bit of research into how the full sized Lifeboats were built, and to find out whether in fact a layer of Calico was placed between the layers of planking. I found that back in the 1970’s, the RNLI Journal contained a series of 10 articles entitled “Building a Rother Class Lifeboat”, which contained all the build information you could possibly want! I knew that these boats used the ‘Double Diagonal’ hull construction method, and had assumed that there were 2 layers of planks. However on reading the description, it transpires that actually there was a longitudinal layer between the 2 diagonal layers, so 3 layers in total. And there is no mention of any Calico being used, so I assume by the time these boats were built, the use of Calico had been phased out. This is how the process is described in the Journal:
The 37' Rother class lifeboat is of cold moulded wood construction; which means that, instead of solid timber, her hull is a skin made up of three layers of thin planks, laid at different angles and bonded together with glue into one immensely strong laminate moulded to the boat's shape. The first skin is the thickest. These planks are 8 mm agba, about 4" wide before they are shaped. The planks are laid diagonally across the longitudinals and timbers of the boat's frame, bottom aft to top forward, at an angle of 45 degrees. Once all the planks of the first skin are laid, it will probably be necessary to do a little fairing with the plane in way of the solid wood members of the frame, particularly the longitudinals, to make sure that this first skin is quite smooth, with no high points. Now for the second skin—a thinner one, of 6 mm agba, which will be laid straight fore and aft. Each strake of the second skin is bonded to the first skin with resorcinol glue and fastened with silicon bronze staples. The third skin, also of 6 mm agba, is once again laid diagonally, but this time on the opposite diagonal to the first skin: top aft, bottom forward. It is glued in the same way as the second skin and fixed with staples. Now that the three layers have been built up, the completed skin is finally fastened through to the solid timber longitudinals with 12 gauge screws at 3" centres.
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Charlie - very interesting information on how the full-size boats were built. Size for size our hulls are going to be extremely strong!
Not started building the Fairey Fisherman yet. Been at the research stage and just about to start the drawings. I've got three other Faireys on the go though!
Chris
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I learned from the Journal that the Planks are actually called Strakes, so that is what I will refer to them as, from now on. The good thing about the recent heatwave is that is doesn't half shorten my glue drying time. So today I was able to fix about 15 Strakes :-)
Here are a few photos to show how far I have got.
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looking mighty fine work indeed...……...wish my planking was as neat. :-))
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Well, I finally finished the first layer of planking. That didn't take nearly as long as I was expecting. She's not looking too bad, what do you think? Now for some serious sanding, filling, then more sanding.....
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looks pretty damn good to me...…...a lovely hull forming there. O0 O0 :-))
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Hi Neil,
I have given her a good sanding, and overall she is pretty smooth. You can see some slightly darker areas, which is where there is a bit of a dip, but these dips seem to be a maximum of 1mm deep. So i'm wondering whether i actually need to apply any filler to these areas, or if i should just go straight ahead with the second layer of planking. What would your advice be?
As you can see, i was so pleased with the result that i got a bit carried away with the picture taking ;)
Charlie
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I don't honestly think you would need to fill those, as you'd loose some adhesive properties if areas were filled......you'd be much better just laying on the second layer of planking using aliphatic resin adhesive......and gain a greater adhesive bond.
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Hullo Charlie.......so no, not questioning a Pom who taught Chippie Kids in OZ. %)......however expecting an Aliphatic wood glue to fill small slabs of 1 mm gap is asking or using way outside the manufacturers recommendations
Could I would suggest researching easy sandable, gluable wood fillers first...... O0
There are a few UK possibilities via Google...you may need to use a manufactures Help line for your question....I have found such woodworking associated Help line staff only too helpful in providing suggestions & recommendations
[I am not sure how you will apply tension in the plank of the second layer which results in a clamping force between the second layer plank and the first layer]
Don't rush.......make sure it is the best way forward, first
Derek
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AHHH, I don't know these ozzies are looking at the problem all upside down I'm afraid %% {-) O0
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Thanks for the replies chaps. So on the one hand using filler may lessen the adhesive properties between the layers of planks. But on the other hand, not using filler may result in some voids between the layers that the adhesive won't fill. There is only one thing to do - conduct an experiment! I have to hand some BodyWorx Filler, so i have prepared a piece of Plywood with a layer of filler. I have then glued some pieces of Lime Planking, using the adhesives i have available. When this has all set (probably tomorrow) i will try pulling the Lime pieces off, and see how effective each adhesive has been. I will report back with my findings %)
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It's worth remembering you won't be covering the whole hull in filler. there will still be a significant amount of wood to give a good grip between layers of planking.
are you going to use a layer of "calico" I've seen Mike P use J-Cloths for this!
you could always do what we did with the real things and rivet the planking too {-)
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Hi Spongie,
You need to catchup son, we already been through the Calico issue quite a few posts ago {-)
Can you please advise the correct number of rivets to use? Wouldn't want to get that wrong!
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I've slept since that was discussed!.
I'll send you the correct number of rivets by private message...
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looking mighty fine work indeed...……...wish my planking was as neat. :-))
I must admit I haven't been following this build...until now! Its amazing that there is such an intricate shape in this hull,and you have done it well.
Reminds me of when I built my 2 metre long Battleship,using this method,and believe me it IS immensely strong.Im going back a good many years,and only had cascamite as a glue,but when it set it really did and does hold! At one stage of planking,I had over 1000 pins in place (no I didn't count them lol,I knew how many was in a packet.Ah well 35 years on and she still isn't finished.
Keep up the good work,and I certainly will be following your progress from now on.
Mick F
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I've slept since that was discussed!.
I'll send you the correct number of rivets by private message...
aughhh, don't keep your knowledge private spongie……….we are all here to learn...……….publish the number on here, then we can take your knowledge seriously.
cheers...…….after all, we learn from each other. O0 O0 :-))
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I'm still counting them...
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I come a little late to this discussion and I don't have the years of experience that others bring to the discussion. But having built a couple of double planked hulls I would urge you to get the first layer as smooth and fair as you can before embarking on the second layer. It will make life a lot easier. You might consider gluing pieces of veneer or thin ply into the depressions if you are dubious about gluing to filler, but I suspect your adhesion trials will show you that you have no problem there. Oh, and it's a lovely hull, beautifully executed!
Greg
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I'm going to ask what might be a real stupid question here!
If you have got the shape required after the first layer, why do you need a second layer? Once filled and resin and mat applied wouldn't that be ready for painting?
I fully understand why multi layers are required in full sized boats as the hull skin is thin relative to the size of the boat but with a model even one layer it is relatively thick and strong and won't be subjected to the forces that a full sized boat is due to flexing and expansion/contraction.
I ask because I've been thinking about how you clamp the second layer as well and the additional work of applying the second layer? Pins or bigger clamps I suppose?
Can the second layer be thinner to make following the curves easier?
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Hi Christ,
To answer some of your query,with a model built in this way,personally I would never resin or fibreglass over it,there is no need? I would preferably use pins rather than clamps,as pins are far easier to use,and to get into odd angles,that clamps are unable to be placed..As you can see,this excellent build is using strips of timber rather than larger pieces as I suspect you may use on your model.When last I used this method,I used 1/16" spruce,which was cut into 1" wide strips.My method of dampening them as you put it,was to get an old electric kettle,and insert a couple of strips down the spout,and boil the kettle for less than a minute.This of course is the old fashioned way of steaming,enabling the strips to be bent and curved and shaped round the corners with ease,and without fear of splitting.As the strips dried out,in with,they would shrink a little,and thus form a tighter fit.
My battleship of 6' 6" long is immensely strong,being built this way,and it has to be with a full size car battery and over 20lbs of lead for ballast!
Hope this helps
Mick F
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Hi Chris,
I'm applying 2 layers of diagonal planking just because that's how the full size boats were made, and i want to replicate that method. However it would certainly be possible to do what you suggest and apply resin and cloth over a single layer, and get a strong hull. It's just my choice not to do that.
The results from my glue tests were quite interesting. The Evostik had zero adhesion; the Titebond had moderate adhesion, the Gorilla Glue performed the best, as i couldn't remove the test piece. The Aliphatic test piece shows good adhesion. It would be tempting to use the Gorilla Glue for the second layer of planking based on this result, but it is not 100% waterproof, so i will stick with the Aliphatic.
Charlie
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good market research there, Charlie...……..very impressive..
I'm actually amazed with the performance of the Gorilla glue, because I have used 4 of their products including their gaffer tape [ which was the worst duct tap I have ever used with absolute zero sticking power] and not one of their products that I used came up to their advertising claims.
but the aliphatic is a very good choice.
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Thanks Mick and Charlie - I can't replicate the method that Fairey used as it was 7 layers of Agba, each 2.5mm thick, hot moulded in an autoclave!
I'm using diagonal planking just because of the curves of the hull. If having fixed one layer I'm happy with the shape achieved I'll leave it there and apply resin and mat.
Interesting tests on the various glues. Looks like that with the Aliphatic it was the filler that failed rather than the glue. I use nothing else.
Chris
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I see that you used Titebond "Original". They are up to Titebond III now, I wonder if there any improvement in sticking power or any other qualities. Maybe just marketing hype.
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From a little experience and reading the American Standards testing procedures, there appears not to be any increase in adhesive quality, however the degree of water resistance is markedly increased...
Being Americans, they do state & print on the Titebond III bottle that it is Waterproof O0...however what they really mean that it is very, very, very, very resistant to water unsticking the pieces of wood. {-).
However they do not state nor even make the slightest suggestion that it is suitable for adhering wood to plastic body filler.....
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Didn't need to use much filler in the end. Second layer of Planking is now underway.
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I'm quite surprised by how much the glue drying time is affected by the weather. During the recent heatwave, i could remove the clamps after a mere 3 hours, and the glue would be set solid. But now that the temperature has dropped to around 12 degrees, even after 11 hours drying time overnight, the glue still wasn't set.
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Well Charlie.......I am sure the temperature variance will have an effect on the drying time, but now with the second diagonal planked layer, you are also now bonding to a partially filled plastic substrate
So even the lightest coating of Finishing Grade Silk Body Filler [polyester] in the porosity of the first layer of planking timber will greatly effect the bonding process O0
Derek
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I would say having tested various adhesives in industry over a fw RnD projects over the years, temperature and humidity hava a huge effect on curing times. DIY / modelling adhesives are usually more easy to work with though. A 10deg swing on temp on most adhesives I can think of would probably have a significant effect on curing times regardless (same with paints). Carry on anyway, looks like you're doing nothing wrong. My biggest problem always seems to be pulling the pins out afterwards -which always seem to try to be a permanent fixture when the adhesive dries LoL.
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...NB I just noticed a bottle of Deluxe glue in the background of your pic. I know it is a popular brand, but on the subject of curing -and end strength, I have personally found anything by Delux vastly variable from top to bottom of bottles, and one bottle to the next which might explain things. I tend to avoid Deluxe adhesives now -I found their cyanyo particularly inconsistent on curing and can be very weak / brittle also.
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The results from my glue tests were quite interesting. The Evostik had zero adhesion; the Titebond had moderate adhesion, the Gorilla Glue performed the best, as i couldn't remove the test piece. The Aliphatic test piece shows good adhesion. It would be tempting to use the Gorilla Glue for the second layer of planking based on this result, but it is not 100% waterproof, so i will stick with the Aliphatic.
Hi Charlie,
Lovin' the build.
Just catching up.... you say that 'Gorilla Glue is not 100% waterproof,' Delux say, "Also sets at low temperatures and is water resistant making it ideal for model boats."
.... just wondering..... :-)
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Hi Martin,
Glad you like the build. I'm certainly enjoying doing it.
The glue waterproof info I have taken directly off the labels of the bottles in my possession. The label of the Gorilla Wood Glue states "Not recommended for structural or load bearing applications nor for continuous submersion or below waterline use". I interpreted this as meaning not fully waterproof, therefore not suitable for a boat. The label on the Aliphatic states "Waterproof when dry". I tested this out by glueing 2 pieces of Limewood together, and then submerging them in water when the glue was fully set. After a week the glue was still set solid, which convinced me to use it for my build.
Latest pics below.
Charlie
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Interesting discussion on the qualities of various glues. To be honest, the amount of time our models spend in the water, any of the above glues would probably do fine. The warnings and qualifications on the labels are aimed at full scale use, where hulls may well be kept afloat for months at a time and where loads might be measured in tons not ounces. Several of my boats rely heavily on superglue to keep them in one piece. I doubt any full size boatbuilder would accept that as a suitable adhesive for his work. Horses for courses... :-)
Greg
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Interesting discussion on the qualities of various glues. To be honest, the amount of time our models spend in the water, any of the above glues would probably do fine. The warnings and qualifications on the labels are aimed at full scale use, where hulls may well be kept afloat for months at a time and where loads might be measured in tons not ounces. Several of my boats rely heavily on superglue to keep them in one piece. I doubt any full size boatbuilder would accept that as a suitable adhesive for his work. Horses for courses... :-)
Greg
Posted in error - finger trouble! Mods please delete.
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It's important to remember that 'water resistant' does not mean water proof.
It might be worth using an inexpensive fan heater in your workshop to accelerate glue setting time. Draper sell a cheap heater which is also thermostatic. It's a good idea to ensure ventilation in case of fumes where appropriate. I realise that your hull is almost fully planked and that the above may be a bit late. I am enjoying your excellent build log. Lovely work.
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The Starboard side second layer of planking is now finished, except for the Prop Tunnel which I will do last. Now onto the Port side.
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looks magnificently strong, and superb finish Charlie. :-))
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Managed to get an hour in the workshop before work this morning, and get a few more Strakes fitted. Back to the subject of glue; i decided to test just how effective the Gorilla Glue is, to see if it is Water Resistant or Waterproof. I glued two pieces of Limewood together and last night left them in a jar of water to soak. This morning the pieces are still firmly attached to each other, but the glue is just starting to soften ever so slightly. So the Gorilla Glue is definitely not fully waterproof, so i consider that i made the correct decision not to use it in my build.
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Just 3 Strakes left to fit, then this side will be finished. Then on to the tricky tunnels....
I just counted up the total number of Strakes fitted so far, and there are 453 :o
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That is a lovely looking hull, Charlie...….can't wait to see that all sanded up...…
a lovely shape to it....perfection.
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You are right Neil, i always used to admire the shape of the hull when she was recovered up the beach after a launch. Those smooth curves and lines really make for a thing of beauty. I always thought dragging a 12 ton wooden hull over a shingle beach couldn't be any good for her, but that double / triple diagonal construction was obviously tough enough to deal with it.
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Today i detached the hull from the building board for the first time. I reckon it looks pretty good on the inside, neater than i imagined it would be. I expected lots of glue drips everywhere, but no! Pretty pleased with that. I had started to sand down the hull planking, but before i get too far with that, i want to mark out the position of the additional layer of planking that partially covers the underside. I believe this extra layer was applied to a few of the Rother Class, to enable them to cope with the rigours of Beach launching. I don't think the Rothers that were carriage launched had this additional layer. To enable accurate marking i first need to trim the edge of the hull down to deck level.
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WOW!, WOWW!!, WOWWWWW!!!!! :-)) :-)) :-)) O0 O0 O0 O0
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I used my Dremel with a cutting disc, to roughly trim the hull down to a few mm above deck level. Now i can proceed with marking out, and then applying the 3rd layer of Planks to the underside.
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So many pins! Current task is to apply the second layer of Lime Planks to the Tunnels. Some careful heating and bending is required here in order not to snap the planks!
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Question....... :o what were the internal surfaces of the hull finished with on the original vessels?
Seems a terrible shame to use a paint & hide the :kiss: internal planking
Derek
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Painted - white or grey usually.
Don’t forget that the interior would have been stuffed full of air cases (or for the Rother, polystyrene blocks), so you couldn’t see the inner surface anyway.
Lance
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Over the years i have collected a fair few postcards of Rother Class Lifeboats. The top 2 are of the Duke of Kent. Can anyone tell me the names and stations of the others? If you have any other postcards featuring a Rother, feel free to post them here :-)
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If you can post the op numbers you want info on.
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Hi Charlie
This is a picture of my Rother, The Hampshire Rose, Walmer lifeboat, I totally scratch built her in the early eighties as a labour of love. It took me five years to complete and 3500 hours. Nothing was purchased.
You can see the extra protective strakes along the lower hull and the smaller ones near the bow to protect the hull when running over the shingle beach at Walmer. The thinner bow protection strips were to protect against the recovery bridle which was secured to the forward ruffle hole then up to the bow where it was secured.
Some boats had a complete extra panel of timber attached instead of the individual strakes.
Kind regards 17-09 .... Alan
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That is a great looking model. I love how you have her displayed on the Turntable. I was thinking of doing something similar with mine as the station at Eastbourne had a similar setup to that at Walmer. Did you ever exhibit your model some years ago, possibly at the Model Engineer Exhibition? I have a vague memory of seeing a model much like yours, on display there.
Charlie
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Hi Charlie,
Yes back in 1986, the MEE at Wembley Conference Centre....is that really 32 years ago? Silver Medal.
She is now on display in the Royal Cinque Ports Yacht Club in Dover.
The turntable is on it's concrete base and also has a section of the roller slipway modelled which the boat runs on before before gliding over the "woods" down the beach and into the sea. The beach is also to scale and taken from Walmer beach near to the low water mark where the shingle is much finer.
You can clearly see the extra rubbing strakes that protect the hull from the beach, also the smaller ones near the bow which protect the hull from the recovery bridle that is fixed through the ruffle holes then secured up in the bows. Some boats had a full sheathing of timber over the lower hull to do the same job.
I loved building this boat which is totally scratch built, even the chains!
Sorry about the picture quality which is not good.
Regards Alan (17-09)
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Hi Alan,
A Silver Medal at the MEE back in 1986 would have been no mean feat. Those were the days when this was the premier competition to enter, and standards were very high. I'm sure i have a photo or a magazine article with a photo, which i will try to dig out at some point, and post on here.
I have had a few days away in sunny Portugal playing Golf with the lads, so my progress has slipped somewhat! {-)
But i have now got back into it. The 2nd layer of planking inside the propeller tunnels is now completed. And this morning i was attempting to mark out the position of the outer layer of hull sheathing that protects the underside whilst being launched or dragged over a shingle beach. This had to be done from photos as the plans don't show this.
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I am in awe of your building and the finished hull...……….just superb craftsmanship. O0 O0 :-))
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Charlie,
I totally agree with Neil, that is some fine work, well done.
I must admit to bread and butter constructing planks of Ramin then fairing my diagonal planking into them on the tunnels.
I also had the good fortune to have the real boat only 4 miles from my home and spending hours measuring the features you now need.
I well remember having the drawings laid out on the turntable when some engineers from the RNLI turned up to do some repairs, not knowing me they asked how we were going to sort out the problem....I had to admit to only being a lifeboat rivet counter and making a model of her.
Regards Alan (17-09)
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Hi Charlie,
Thanks for your comments regarding my “Rother” model where you mention the Silver medal, I hope I am not going “off piste” here and feel sure Martin will move this post if I am.
Back in the eighties you could only get one Gold medal in each class, Silvers were all of a certain standard which allowed you to be considered for the Gold. There were quite a few sections of the model which were judged and given points which amounted to a Silver medal, from these the judges awarded one Gold.
There was no Lifeboat trophy at that time.
The judging at the MEE has always been a subject that has had a lot of correspondence over the years, who would be a judge? Perhaps Colin Bishop might comment.
Keep up your build and perhaps enter the MEE with one of your excellent models, the Hampshire Rose is currently operating as a tour boat from Ilfracombe.
Regards Alan (17-09)
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Alan.....I am sure Charlie won't mind your comments......
As I read them, you are simply reporting from a humble perspective on a build and the Judging criteria of the day
Congratulations on your work prior to 1986 :-))
Derek
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Hi Alan - i am always interested to hear other builders experiences, so please keep on going off-piste!
Over the weekend i gave the hull a coat of filler, and a rub down. Most of the gaps, cracks, pin holes and undulations are now pretty well smoothed over. Now i can crack on with applying the planks that make up the hull sheathing.
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Hi Charlie,
That has to be the neatest wooden hull build I have ever witnessed!! Give it a final sand, teak oil it and use it as a piece of 'modern art' - it's far better than anything that wins the Turner Prize!! What a lovely shape, especially those tunnels. Enter it next year and you should [if there was any justice in the world] win it. Then get back in the workshop and make another for your 'boat build'. Seriously, that's proper boat [and model] building. Congratulations - an aspiration to us all.
Kim
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Hi Charlie,
That has to be the neatest wooden hull build I have ever witnessed!! Give it a final sand, teak oil it and use it as a piece of 'modern art' - it's far better than anything that wins the Turner Prize!! What a lovely shape, especially those tunnels. Enter it next year and you should [if there was any justice in the world] win it. Then get back in the workshop and make another for your 'boat build'. Seriously, that's proper boat [and model] building. Congratulations - an aspiration to us all.
Kim
I totally agree...…….its beautiful.
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This is how i believe the planking should be applied. There is a bit of guesswork here, since i haven't got a photo showing the complete underside, and the plans don't show much detail.
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Be a shame to paint that workmanship O0 :-)) looking good !!
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There is still some work to be done to finish off the propellor tunnels. Where the keel meets the top of the tunnel planking, there is a triangular profile section. Hopefully you can see this in the photos. I think I will try making this out of a single plank of Obechi.
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Some progress has been made in the Shipyard! The 3rd layer of 'Partial' planking has been completed; the bases for the Bilge Keels have been fitted; the Prop Tunnels have been completed with the addition of the triangular profile section, and the hull has been filled and rubbed down to a satisfactory finish. So today the hull was turned over, and the frames were cut down to deck level.
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Hull now trimmed/sanded down to deck level.
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One of the next jobs will be to make the Bilge Keels. I'm undecided on how to create these so far. I was thinking of making a pattern and mould, and then cast them in white metal. However I don't think that would pour well, since the metal will likely harden before it reaches the bottom of such a long thin mould. Now I'm thinking of fabricating from brass strip. Is there an easier way to make these?
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Hi Charlie,
Just a quick thought - could you 're-fabricate' / machine a piece of 'O' gauge or larger scale brass railway track? Even, in the old days, a curtain rail was brass and of similar cross section. Just a thought and 'starting point' to get the ball rolling and the solution for you. That's the great reward from this Forum. However, I'll keep it to the 'front of my mind' when sitting in heavy traffic!
Cheers,
KIm
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Hi Kim,
Thanks for the suggestion. The Bilge Keel certainly has a similar profile to Rail Track, so that could be a possibility. I reckon i would need a Milling Machine to cut out the oval shaped slots in the 'Web' part of the section, something i don't currently posses. Do you have any advice about how i may slip the purchase of one through our weekly 'Housekeeping' budget without it being spotted? :-)
Charlie
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Charlie,
Here might be some suggestions:
- 'it's a small machine that will fit into my workshop [out of the way and not cluttering the house!] that will make items thinner or else drill various size holes through them, thereby not requiring me to get local shops or firms to do the job to an inferior standard, at a higher cost and invariably having to wait a longer time than it would take me %) .
- 'it can be used on any kind of rigid material that requires altering in the kitchen, bathroom, vanity mirror / worktop, lounge, dining room, utility room, loft, spare room and hallway or stairs. It could even be of use to me in the workshop, so would not be money wasted, more like 'money in the bank'' ok2 .
- 'it would give years of service and pleasure - much the same as me! :-)) '
- 'my friend Kim, whom you have met, never wastes a penny more than necessary and even he has one, his wife having bought him a lathe for his sixtieth birthday which does the same job, but to round items :} .'
Seriously, if none of these work, you are always welcome to come across to Canterbury and use mine, whenever.
Another suggestion is that some extruded 'H' section lengths of plastic could do the job, but two or three lengths might need to be joined to get the overall length. I do have some of this size in a dark grey [it had to be that colour!!]. A search on Google of the cross section dimensions required might come up with the answer.
I wish you well in your endeavours - you might need to change the birthday from sixty [that was eleven years ago now!] to your next one or even as a Christmas present!!
Kim
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Excellent tips indeed! However i think i will avoid going down the machining route, except as a last resort. I still like the idea of casting them, and i'm thinking that if i have the mould positioned horizontally, with multiple pour points, then a successful pour might just be possible. If the White Metal doesn't work, i could then try using a Casting Resin instead.
Charlie
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I my case Kim‘s tips worked. I bought a lathe and a milling machine last year and if you want to go this route, I would like to encourage you. There are some very helpful tutorials on youtube and an excellent small book for the ‚mini lathe‘. Making your own bits is also very rewarding. I would not want to miss that experience. All in all working with those machines is not as difficult as I thought it would be and I had definitely no knowledge before.
Regards
Arno
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Charlie,
Two further points for consideration:
- If the bilge keels are in cast white metal this will quite 'a weight', which might give a 'lurching' effect in anything other than a calm water - creating a pendulum motion. The weight might be better served lower and on the keel in the centre line. Remembering this is a model and not the actual vessel with natural low, central weight [the engine].
- Casting white metal - in my experience - can be, in its own way of materials, quite expensive too. However, when casting a long length it will need to be poured across the whole length in one go, so that the metals from different 'entry points' are still molten and will 'join' to each other. If not, you might find they will part at the 'joints' at the least provocation.
I would rather mention this now before any outlay has occurred. Maybe the cast resin would be better, but potential knocks in this area [both in and out of water] need to be thought of too.
I'm sure it will get solved in the best possible way for you. It was good to hear from Arno [Swiftdoc] too.
Kim
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Charlie,
I would personally go down the fabrication route, the shape of the upper plates would be built onto the hull giving you the perfect shape of your hull and a good strong joint, you could use wood or plastic to make these. The vertical section with all the detail could then be added from whatever material you prefer, I think again would use a thick styrene, easily machined or constructed with normal hand tools, drill/filed, this would be followed by the skid, again from bent styrene or even metal section which could be easily pinned to the vertical plate because it has a good cross section thickness.
My skid, the part that runs on the cradle, had a round section where yours has it square which is easier to attach. Moulding one in resin or white metal would be good but you have to make a master anyway.
Regards 17-09 (Alan)
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Thanks for all the feedback and suggestions, it is much appreciated. I will mull over my next steps, and hopefully (if the temperature warms up in the shop) make some progress. I will of course provide an update here when I have anything to show.
Charlie
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A little progress to report. Fore and Aft deck beams are now fitted. The steering gear is sorted, and the mould for the GRP Wheelhouse is progressing.
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Looking good Charlie - this is another one for me to catch up with - I'm off back to page one for a memory jogger :-))
Regards,
Ray.