Model Boat Mayhem
Masterclasses => 63 FOOT RAF AIR SEA RESCUE LAUNCH => Topic started by: Bunkerbarge on March 23, 2008, 08:01:45 pm
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Please feel free to share your Questions and comments on Bluebirds build in this thread.
( Build thread: 63 FOOT RAF AIR SEA RESCUE LAUNCH WHALEBACK (http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=9758.0) )
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John- needless to say that this is an absolutely excellent job you have made there. As I am a bit in that fast-scale-theme I wonder, why you have made it plank on frame. Was it your opinion to catch up the hull, like the origin had been built?
Don`t want to doubt in any way what you have done- just want to come behind the idea.
Thankkyou in advance.
Jörg
Hi there Jorg - to try and answer your above questions:
When I originally thought about building this hull, it was to try and show newcomers to the hobby what diagonal planking was about; so, originally I was only going to 'single plank' the hull and keep it at the scale of 1/2 inch to the foot and in doing so, I was planning on using brushless motors. This brushless motor field was going to be a new learning curve for me personally - but, due to the expense of the brushless set-up, it wasnt a viable option. I then began to rethink the build and it was at that stage that I decided to build a double-diagonally planked hull, using the inner planks as semi-scale, which should show the beginner or the 'newby' the basics of the planking method. It would also show others, by adding the scale planking to the outside, how to commence producing a hull near enough to the original full size hull.
With using light materials, as I did with the very thin ply, this meant keeping the weight down to an extremely light hull. When I took the hull from the building board, I weighed it, and it came in at 2lb and 8oz this is without any running gear added. This hull is some 39 1/2 inches long, by 10 1/2 inches beam and I think you will find, you will have to go some, to find a fibre-glass hull as light as that, unless we begin to use carbon fibres.
Hope that helps to answer your question Jorg. If not, fire away with more queries. :)
aye
john e
bluebird
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Hi John,
thankyou for the answer. Well, that explains a lot. Now I have to calculate the imperials into metric....
2lb = 2x453,6 Gramm= 907,2 Gramm
8oz= 8x28,35 Gramm= 226,8 Gramm
Total: 1134,0 Gramm= 1,134 Kilogramm
Length: 39 1/2 " x 2,542= 100,4 cm
Beam: 10 1/2 " x 2,542= 26,69 cm
That gives me a very good relation to my 70`CMB hull, which is out of fibreglass with a deadweigth of in total 700 Gramm at nearly the same dimensions.
I think, that the most people mould much too thick with too many layers when using fibre and carbon isn`t the final answer.
However, this should not be meant to reduce your quality or skill. An awsome job which I am sure, I`d never reach (or just with very much difficulties.
Your photographs remind me on a shipmate at the SWA. He made a MTB all the same way and won the Duke of Edinborough-Trophy some years ago with it.
Again, thankyou for your information. Great to talk with shipmates about their technics. Go on with it, I`m excited to see some more.
Jörg
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John,
Great build.. Love the double diagonal planking. tried it out on my BB and was surprised by how strong the hull is before fibreglassing.
I.m just a little confused by one matter and that is why have you painted the hull after laying mahogany planking. I thought that the planking was going to be a feature of the model.....or have I missed something.
One other thing - when you were talking about the prop shaft exits and rudder positioning - how does one do this when your (mine) drawings do not show this detail....I hope I do not install them at the wrong end.
Martin Doon Under
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Hi there Martin - in response to your queries....
I.m just a little confused by one matter and that is why have you painted the hull after laying mahogany planking. I thought that the planking was going to be a feature of the model.....or have I missed something.
One other thing - when you were talking about the prop shaft exits and rudder positioning - how does one do this when your (mine) drawings do not show this detail....I hope I do not install them at the wrong end.
First of all - painting the planks - I myself would have loved to have left the mahogany showing and just with a coating of Epoxy - because, before I painted her, you would think she had been French Polished (the boat not the Mrs ) :) but to keep in with authenticity of the model; we have had to paint her.
In certain lighting, looking along the hull, one can make out some individual planks along the side which you sometimes can see in the life sized boats.
With regards to props and rudders - there should be somewhere on your plans mention of position of motors in the hull. O0 If not, though, will have to look for some photographs/other drawings either on the web or in the books, which we can use and scale up to suit your drawings and take the dimensions from there. Although, having said that, are you going to make your hull a 'single screw' or are you going to go for the 'triple screw' ??.
Aye
John
Bluebird O0
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Hi there Martin - in response to your queries....
First of all - painting the planks - I myself would have loved to have left the mahogany showing and just with a coating of Epoxy - because, before I painted her, you would think she had been French Polished (the boat not the Mrs ) :) but to keep in with authenticity of the model; we have had to paint her.
In certain lighting, looking along the hull, one can make out some individual planks along the side which you sometimes can see in the life sized boats.
With regards to props and rudders - there should be somewhere on your plans mention of position of motors in the hull. O0 If not, though, will have to look for some photographs/other drawings either on the web or in the books, which we can use and scale up to suit your drawings and take the dimensions from there. Although, having said that, are you going to make your hull a 'single screw' or are you going to go for the 'triple screw' ??.
Aye
John
Bluebird O0
Hi John,
I new I had missed something about the mahogany being painted.
As for the propshafts and rudders, I intend building as three screws.
The drawings show the location of the gas turbine engines , gearboxes, exhausts etc, but weeing I do not have the technical prowess with the real boat - am a little confused. Don't worry about chasing down pic's as I have about 35 photo's of the beast when she was first laid down with a couple showing props and rudders.
I will send CD with the plans -
Thanks again
Martin doon under
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[boats.
The drawings show the location of the gas turbine engines , gearboxes, exhausts etc, but weeing I do not have the technical prowess with the
Martin doon under
[/quote]
Sorry, early morning finger problems - weeing should have read as "seeing". Now why did the spell checker not pick up that error >>:-(
Martin doon under
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The drawings show the location of the gas turbine engines , gearboxes, exhausts etc,
Martin doon under
I did not think the boat Bluebird was building had Gas turbines? or are we talking about Two different boats ? :D
fredy
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The drawings show the location of the gas turbine engines , gearboxes, exhausts etc,
Martin doon under
I did not think the boat Bluebird was building had Gas turbines? or are we talking about Two different boats ? :D
fredy
Sorry Proteus,
Yes, I was actually talking about my boat HMS Brave Borderer. apologies for the confusion :embarrassed: :embarrassed:
Martin doon under
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Yea no problem Martin , I was just a bit confused (doesent take a lot with me). I kept reading the topic and thought I was missing something, it was as much for you than me that I posted. no need to apologise
fredy
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Hi there Proteus I admit I am as guilty as Martin for side-tracking the topic :D :D problem is Martin is in the process of a build, and, I am trying to persuade him to put his build on the Forum.
Come on Martin, let us all see your pics - its a blinking good build of yours.
aye
john e
bluebird
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Come on Martin, let us all see your pics - its a blinking good build of yours.
aye
john e
bluebird
My god your persistent :P
It's coming, one more day for work then I will set about posting my build.......although spending time sanding my recent attempt at fibreglassing may be the order of the day :(
Martin doon under
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Bluebird are you going to varnish that wonderfull deck planking
Stavros
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hi there, Sadly to say, the deck planking is either going to be a grey or a yellow, depending on which era I build the boat at.
Early on in World War II, some of these boats had bright yellow'ish deck and then later on in hostilities - they modify them to 'just grey' because these Rescue Launches became targets for not only the enemy but BOTH SIDES :o
aye
John e
bluebird
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G'Day John,
2 Questions,
Rubbing strake - was this timber of plastic - now if I read the photo's correct, did you pin the strake then glued or the other way around - was this to protect the paint - maybe I am just off the track.
Q2. Prop shaft support - probably got this wrong too - but if I read it right -the outer sleeve, then another to slide inside, then another again, solder, then fit shaft, all of which then fit into "P" bracket ??? ???
I thought that the bronze bush at the end of the tube supported the shaft beyond the "P" bracket - why all the sleeves, or I'm reading this wrong too :embarrassed:
I still think it a shame to paint over the Mahogany - what a beautiful piece of planking, maybe one day when I grow up, I can do it too...
Martin doon under
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Aye aye there Martin doon under
Rubbing strake - was this timber of plastic - now if I read the photo's correct, did you pin the strake then glued or the other way around - was this to protect the paint - maybe I am just off the track.
The rubbing strakes were 1/8 x 1/8 inch Obechi timber - I first held the strake in place with Superglue and then pinned it. To protect the paint was one of the minor jobs it does; the main function though is to protect the joint between the deck and the hull side.
O0
Prop shaft support - probably got this wrong too - but if I read it right -the outer sleeve, then another to slide inside, then another again, solder, then fit shaft, all of which then fit into "P" bracket
I thought that the bronze bush at the end of the tube supported the shaft beyond the "P" bracket - why all the sleeves?
The 'P' bracket is the bush which is next to the propeller, so, this 'P' bracket takes a percentage of the thrust between the propeller and the stern tube bush.
The reason for all the sleeves is; it is an alternative method of making a 'P' bracket, and, it is for those who do not have the facility to machine one of these on a lathe; for those who do have a lathe - they could produce one of these from a suitable piece of say bronze or brass material.
Hope this helps; if it still needs any clarification, please give me a yell O0 :D :)
aye
John e
Bluebird
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Aye aye there Martin doon under
O0
The reason for all the sleeves is; it is an alternative method of making a 'P' bracket,
Hope this helps; if it still needs any clarification, please give me a yell O0 :D :)
aye
John e
Bluebird
Ahhhh......The penny has dropped... O0 O0 O0
Martin doon under
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Gee, that Aussie 50 dollar note can't be worth much in the UK? {-) {-) {-) {-) {-) {-) {-)
Question-1 - Re your intermediate stringers -
Your model is about 39" long and I forgot the beam. I have noticed that you have four stringers between the keel and chine. My guess is that by having the stringers closer together, there is less likelihood of hollows in the hull - Am I on the right track?
My build of Brave Borderer 1:16 scale being 72" long and beam of 18", how many stringers would you have placed between the keel and chine - I have three, and now realise it would have been better to install more as I have discovered hollows whilst sanding the glass.
Question-2 Planking
I noticed that when you planked the second layer that you started on the side first then did the bottom so that the end grain of the planks were not facing down. Unfortunately, on my model, I did it the other way around - bottom then side. Is this critical or will the Polyester resin seal the end grain? :-\ :-\
Martin doon under
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Hi Martin and everyone :)
Question-1 - Re your intermediate stringers -
Your model is about 39" long and I forgot the beam. I have noticed that you have four stringers between the keel and chine. My guess is that by having the stringers closer together, there is less likelihood of hollows in the hull - Am I on the right track?
The beam is roughly 10 1/2 inches. If you note, the bottom stringers - two of them actually form motor mounts on either side of the keel; the distance at the widest part of the hull on the bottom is divided roughly equally - into four sections. This serves three purposes : As you say prevents hollows and humps as well as adding strength to the build;
Also the more complicated the bottom hull shape is, they help to reproduce the shape - the actual thickness of the stringers (or the dimensions) depend obviously on the size of hull you are building - the larger the hull, the more stringers you would put in.
ooOOooOOooOOooOO
My build of Brave Borderer 1:16 scale being 72" long and beam of 18", how many stringers would you have placed between the keel and chine - I have three, and now realise it would have been better to install more as I have discovered hollows whilst sanding the glass.
Knowing of the complicated shape of the bow, on the Brave Class hull, I would have opted to put at least five stringers in, per side, on the bottom. However, they would have only been about 3/16 of an inch square and for the sides, I would have gone to about four or five stringers per side.
ooOOooOOooOOooOO
Question-2 Planking
I noticed that when you planked the second layer that you started on the side first then did the bottom so that the end grain of the planks were not facing down. Unfortunately, on my model, I did it the other way around - bottom then side. Is this critical or will the Polyester resin seal the end grain?
On your build it is not critical. The Polyester will have sealed the end grain. The drawback of your hull though is that it doesnt have a protective spray rail around the chine, where the Whaleback does. If we wanted to be truly authentic to a double diagonal build, the planks would have been recessed into a rebate in the chine stringer and I have seen this done on a build before; and when done correctly it looks absolutely beautiful, but, it could be very, very time consuming.
Two pictures attached are what I worked from when I did the planking; and, if you have a close look you may be able to make out the rebate line - these pictures were kindly supplied by CDSC123 - and I am deeply indebted to him as he has helped me a great deal with this build.
Aye
John E
Bluebird
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Wow John worth waiting a fortnight for the cabin, very nice. O0
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Love the opening sick-bay doors with home-made hinges O0 O0
How are you planning to make the turret domes?
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hello there Christian do you like this one:
PLAN A:
Hopefully, I am going to produce a 'dummy turret' from solid wood; which can be collapsed inwardly. Onto this, I will construct a framework similar to that of the real turret from plastistrutt 't' section of the correct scale. Then glue in clear panels of styrene.
if this fails....
PLAN B:
Produce the gun turret out of solid timber once again; that will become the male and the female will made up of a flat piece of plywood with a hole drilled in it slightly bigger than the turret. The clear styrene sheet is then 'clamped' onto the plywood and put into the cooking oven and warmed through :-) when the styrene is nice and soft and pliable the male former is pushed through the hole forming the Dome shape. That is if it hasnt all melted and ruined cooker :o :D and then flat styrene stip would be glued on top of the Dome to assimilate the structure.
:D To be honest with you, Christian, I am dreading this part of the build
aye
john
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I look forward to seeing how you do them, I wimped out with my 1/24th Thornycroft HSL and bought them from Deans Marine but that's not an option for you. I have heard people have used the valve out of old radios though..
What did you think of For Those In Peril?
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Hi there Christian
Really good shots of the whalebacks plus Fairmile Bs - anybody building a Fairmile B wants to try and get hold of this film for some of the shots - storyline a bit weak - but worth watching for the shots of the craft alone, just as you said.
I did try and purchase this film on DVD - but couldnt only manage to get the video. It would be good on DVD because of I would be able to pause it without damaging the film so I could have a good look at the detail etc.
aye
john e
BLUEBIRD
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Hi John- VMT for the wonderfully clear explanation on how to tackle the turret domes O0
One question, how thick was the clear PVC sheet? I feel much happier about trying it myself now.
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Hi there Christian
I ended up, and obtained the best results, from PVC that was 0.5 mm in thickness.
The other thing I found was, on the plywood jig, with the hole in - do not tighten the two pieces of plywood together too tightly. Clamp them so that, with a little effort, you can move the PVC back and forwards. This allows for movement when you push the mould through the hole and it also gives a uniform thickness around the dome.
If you clamp it too tightly, not allowing the material to move, what you will find is that the finished moulded dome is fairly thick at the top but thins out drastically towards the base. This makes it unusable or splits which has happened to me once or twice.
Just as a sidenote, have you ever come across two versions of the turrets? A low profile turret which is supposedly later on in hostilities to the turrets which were added when the vessels were first introduced.
Of all of the vessels, not only with the Whaleback, but, other Air Sea Rescue Launches with the ball turrets, they all appear to be of the 'rounded type' do you know of any different ones and do you have any reference photographs????
Aye
John e
bluebird
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Thanks John, I'll give that a try. I agree with you regarding the turrets, as far as I know they were all the Boulton & Paul aircraft type turret, although in some photos of the Hants & Dorsets they do look lower, I always thought this was because of the armour plating around the base though. I will check with the experts and get back to you on this one..
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Now don't forget to show us how you made those hatches and the vents. I have pen and paper ready. This stuff is really important, especially when one decides to build a model where you cannot buy ready-made fittings.
Must admit though, I'm still in awe on how you made those gun turrets - would never have thought it possible..
Bl###y Amazing :)
Martin doon under
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Thanks John for the explanation on how you made those hatches and Hinges, this is exactly what I was hoping for. I need to make transom exhaust flaps for Brave Borderer and your method is simple and perfect for the job. O0 O0
It's amazing how you make your fittings with only one fully functional arm ;)
The Brass channel - was that obtained from a hobby shop? ???
Your model is looking great - keep up the good work and How To's
Martin :)
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Hi Bluebird
just started following your build, wonderful stuff, your write ups are great, how do you find the time to do them!!
I saw you were looking for "For those in peril" on DVD, I just got a copy of ebay, its a buy it now and the seller has one left, actually he makes the dvd copies so I guess he wont run out!
here the item number 360072008936
I guess Christian mentioned that there is a whale back here up in Norfolk! There is another near my boat in West Mersea, both have the same redesigned superstructure.
Anyway hope this helps.
Mark
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good morning there Mark
I was lucky enough to be supplied with a DVD for those in Peril on the Sea - Christian, in his goodness did that for me (I had purchased a copy on video, but I wanted to pause the video for long periods, so I could examine different aspects of the vessel, and, of course the tape began to deteriorate on the video - as they do) :-\ . Thank you to you for the Ebay information Mark.
Christian has been an immense help to me with information throughout the build. I am very grateful for that.
As far as I am going with the build - it is going rather slowly at the moment - due to the fact I am busy researching some other vessels - for a possible build.
aye
john e
bluebird
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Hi Bluebird
I have been reading with great interest the article concerning this build. I purchased the same plans as you about 15 yrs ago, and I hope to star building in the next few weeks. Part of the reason being confidence to tackle this project as I am a relatively inexperienced modeller at this level, but what the hell I have waited 15 yrs lol. I am planning to upscale to 1:12 giving an overall length of 63", I have a couple of questions that have troubled me and you or someone else more knowledgable than me can help with. The first being the power plant, I want a triple screw set up and was looking for recommendations for motors. The other problem I forsee is the stringers and chine rails where they meet the bow. I have looked at the pictures you have posted but I can quiet see how you completed this. Please forgive me if you feel this is a silly question, but I need help with it. Any help, advice or additional pics of your build would be greatly appreciated.
Mike
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Hi there Mike
welcome to the Forum my friend; one thing I can say straight away always remember no question is a stupid question - the only stupid question is the one - one should have asked O0
First off; concerning the whaleback build, can I ask you - are you going to build it true to scale or as near to scale as you can get. The reason being, the original vessels had all their props turning in the same direction. (All three were turning anti-clockwise).
This is how I built my model and I have yet to try it out on the Lake - I have a suspicion that the stern will tend to kick to one side. The other thing is these boats with scale size rudders are notoriously difficult to turn using rudders only.
This is why myself I opted to have independent controls of each motor; through a mixer. Which is in turn connected to the speed controllers. This is to aid the turning circle of the vessel. As for size of motors; the model I am building is roughly about 40 inches long; and I have equipt her with 3 x Graupner 600 motors - I intend to eventually run her on 3 x 7.2 NiCad packs.
So, looking at your intended build; of 1/12 scale - i.e. roughly 63 inches long - I would be looking for something like 700 or 800s motors with NiCads.
Now for your next part of the question; as far as the build the chine stringers - where they reach the bow, they are notched in to what we will call 'sidecheeks' I have shown these in a small sketch and they are marked in as 'B'.
On the next drawing, you will see how I have made these 'sidecheeks' up out of 1/4 x 1/4 inch Obechi, these are glued either side of the keel at the beginning of the build and shaped when they are fairing the frames in. You will see these marked as 'D' in the drawing - as for the deck stringer/gunnel stringer, when it reaches the last frame or the first frame whichever you want at the bow; it overlaps by about 1 inch past the frame - there is a plywood sub-frame shall we call it; but I normally call it a 'false deck' which is glued flush with the top of the frame and the top of the keel. It takes the place of the stringer at the bow and is marked as 'C' on the scribble.
Hope this is of some help to you.
aye
john e
bluebird
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John
firstly your remark about a stupid question is very much appreciated. I was thinking of running one prop clockwise to negate the effects you are expecting as well as using a proportional motor control which is controlled via the rudder control. I hope to build a near scale model due to my limited experience and progress on more accurate models at a slightly later date. I plan to start marking out sometime in the next week (got a week off work coming up). I have looked at the information and sketches you have provided and really do appreciate the time you have spared to do this. It may be fare to say, I would expect this is not the last time I pose a questions to you and any other forum members.
Mike
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Whilst on the subject of silly questions...
Where can I posibly find a copy of the plans for this boat? ;)
It does look rather nice, and I am feeling the urge to build sumink.
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Hi try this for the plans
http://www.myhobbystore.com/ProductsList/mcs/CategoryID/80/GroupID/4/CatName/Plans%20-%20John%20Pritchard/v/9fc4093d-1f69-43c3-be33-a6673c92ded7
aye
john e
bluebird
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Thanks John O0
Set of plans now ordered! :)
Time to start buying in...
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And there was I wondering what you were up to!
Looking good.
I was on the net last night doing a bit of searching on the real boat. Could not find a great deal at all, however, i did find an interesting write up about the whaleback on a German model shops' websit. If you are interested, or anyone else for that matter, you can read a bit about them here. It is one of two sites that actually names the 130!
An other site I found had some good photos (of the model), but none of the real boat. The photos are quite good to but thy depict the boat in its "Yellow" paint job.
Have you plans to include the sand sacking around the cabin?
Here are the links:
http://www.superbox.at/rescue-launch-p-2579.html for the site with the history. (bit ironic that it is a German site) the site is in English.
http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery/misc/hms/rescue-72-mm/mm-index.html For the site with the photos. even though its an airfix, it is very well done.
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hi ya there hagar
if you send me your email address by PM, on this forum, I would forward some pictures to you that I have - these were sent to me by a gentleman, Christian, who also visits this Forum.
john
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Hi ya John,
By the way, what's the current status of the whaleback build - you still making fittings or something ??? :embarrassed: O0
Martin doon under
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Hes done a bit of painting Martin, its on the build.
Reckon he doesn't want to rush things, either that or too many tea and forum breaks. ;)
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could be right about too many tea breaks.....but Forum breaks....wey aye especially when I got to keep him right on Name that Ship - but, if one looks closer at the build you will see a search light - which works ya nar.....anti shrapnel matts on the windscreens - scrambling nets Im on the go with, ventilator made and fitted, so have the clear screens on the front. Not to mention the guns in the turrets :P {-) {-) {-) nah nah nah nah NAH!!!! :D :D :D {-) {-) O0
aye man
John
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See what happens when ya dont be on the forum for a couple of weeks - ya miss things....
Apologies John O0
Martin du
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John
I need to pick your brains as need a little advice. Considering my model is at 1:12 scale and I plan to use 3 x 700's what would your recommendations be on prop size? I was considering 40mm or 45mm three bladed, I am currently in the process of marking out the keel and frames at this time after visiting my local graphics shop where I was lucky enough to get the keel and half frames enlarged and copied to actual size.
Thanks
Mike O0
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hi ya there Mike
the original propellers on the Whaleback, as I have mentioned before, were all left-handed and the diameter of these propellers were 23.5 inches and the pitch was 23 inches. For information, they were made out of nikel aluminium bronze. Now with using 700 motors, obviously the true scale size of the prop would be roughly about 50mm in your case. However, I do have a feeling this may be a little bit too big, unless of course we go down the route of 50mm fine pitch. If you were to commence with 40mm as you suggested (plastic 3 blade props) and see how she performs on these props; then possibly you could if the model performs well upgrade to brass props & maybe go to 45mm diameter. The reason, going up in diameter, for some reason - the brass props which you purchase off the shelves are not as efficient as the plastic ones. In most cases, this could be open to debate.
Last and final thing; have a would with Christian (Cdsc123) on this Forum - with regard to prop shafts of these vessels. The reason being the pictures I have seen of Christian's father's boat; only had 2 props. Now there is every chance in the world that the centre prop was removed for economy on his boat. Just to be on the safeside double check with Christian before you proceed. I very much doubt these vessels would be twin screw, but you never know.
aye
john e
bluebird
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Hi Mike and John
That is a small can of worms into which we shall take a quick peek, as without doubt all the RAF HSL versions of the 63ft Whaleback hull had 3 full sets of sterngear mated to 3 Power-Napier Sea Lion W-12s so no worries for you guys.
The RN versions (called MA/SBs for Motor Anti-Submarine Boats, later re-designated and fitted out as MGBs) were a different proposition, as the boats which were in build for export to other countries (e.g. Poland) were fitted with 2 Rolls-Royce Merlins (approx 1100hp each at that stage) and were all taken over by the RN at the commencement of hostilities with these power units fitted. Other boats which were built specifically for the RN were fitted with only 2 of the lesser Sea Lions (approx 550hp each).
The boat dad had was fitted with 3 sets originally, the original stuffing boxes etc are all still in place. Post-war when she was in private hands and fitted with 2 cruising diesels the centre shaft etc was removed. There is however no doubt she was RN MA/SB 32, and according to the records she was built with only 2 sets. A bit of a mystery!
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John / Christian
Once again I bow to the extent of your knowledge and thank you for the information and advice.
John
I will go with my original plan of 3 props at 40mm (3 bladed) but I will set the shafts up so they will accommodate up to 50mm props if required. By the way how is your build progressing? I cant wait to see the latest updates when you post them.
Christian
I noticed on your model of S32 you have used three brass 3 bladed props and if my memory serves me right you wrote on the BMPT forum that you model was also 1:12 scale. If I am correct what was the running gear you used and how do you find the prop size/material.
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Hi Mike
I'm afraid the S-32 model (which is at 1:16 scale) is static as dad wanted it for display only. If it were powered I would have used whichever plastic props John would have recommended, the sizes you mention seem about right to me for your boat O0
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I see in the build, that you have already made provision for motor mounts which are mounted into the ribs. Now I know you have years of experiance in these matters, but how do you go about working out where they should go?
As a new beginner to all this, woúld it be easier to go with a flat deck in the hull and fix the motor mounts to this?
Ian M
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O0
Hi there Hagar
To calculate the position of the rudders and prop shafts on this plan we have to use the side profile drawing of the actual vessel. On the line drawings there are no prop shaft/rudder positions shown. What you need to do is use the very edge of the transom as a reference point; where the transom meets the keel of the vessel. Take all measurements for your centre rudder and prop shaft from this point.
Then, transfer them to your line drawing if you wish; or, transfer them to the keel drawing on your piece of chosen plywood. The distance between the two outer propeller shafts and rudders come from the stern elevation of the vessel; this again, you may transfer to your bottom profile line drawing. What I would strongly recommend is you mark your centre prop shaft on your keel because this needs to be cut and cheek pieces added prior to any part of the building of the hull.
Complete the build of the hull, without worrying about the location of the two outer prop shafts; once the hull has been completed, you can then calculate from the drawing onto the actual hull the position of your two outer prop shafts - using your centre prop shaft as a guide.
As far as engine mounts are concerned, as you have suggested, for those who are unfamiliar with building from line drawings; and have the ability to calculate frame positions for motor mounts; (which knowledge you will gain through experience) is do as you suggest by putting flat-beds in to support your motors.
Now .... for a confession - and this has no reflection on this particular plan - I redrew this plan and added an extra rib in at the stern and altered the width of the hull and the flare of the bow. This was because I had received adequate photographs and information to correct very slight imperfections; now, before anyone thinks that this plan will not build a very true to lifelike hull, do not worry AS IT DOES because I have built a hull directly from this plan, with no modifications.
The only problem I found with the original scale and hull was at the time I built it, we did not have brushless motors or the associated electronics to go with them. To get the best performance from this scale hull it may be better to go to the 'brushless set-up'.
Hope this is of some help.
aye
john e
bluebird
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Thank you for a very informative reply!
Could you give as good a reply to this one? The inside of the hull, you treated that with a resin, to protect it from water in the hull, and the out side was epoxied and wrapped.
Couldn't go into that in a little more detail could you.
Also, is it possible to plank on top of a resin/epoxy. If so what glue would you suggest?
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Hagar Hi there Mate
Yes, the inside of the hull was sealed with inexpensive polyester resin, the reason for this, is that the inside of the hull is not as subjected to the same wear and tear treatment as the exterior.
The exterior of the hull, the first layer of planks were Obechi timber.
the second and outer layer were of Mahogany. This, then, was given 2-3 coats of pure Epoxy Resin - no matting or any other material was added.
This Epoxy finish was then rubbed down to the desired finish for painting.
Before I answer your next question, I need to ask you why do you wish to seal the inner planks, before you 'lay up' over the top? Yes, I do realise that in real life there was a skin of Calico with red lead put on between the two layers of planking. Are you trying to assimilate this, as Gribeauval does with his lifeboats?
or
Are you concerned in case you acquire a leak between the planks????
If it was me going to glue on top of Epoxy, or a Polyester; I would be tempted to use a superglue - knowing full well the exterior planking is going to be sealed completely with another coat of Epoxy resin.
To be honest, I would think this was a bit overkill, although having said that - what materials are you proposing planking the hull with?
aye
john
bluebird
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To be 100% honest, I will be doing the deck i mahogani and clearcoating it!
Needless to say this hull, in my build will not be finnished as a rescue launch, but as a conversion....
Bit like a 60's runabout if you understand what I mean. ???
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John
I found this web site and may be of interest to you and others:
http://www.mwadui.com/HongKong/Crest.htm
Mike
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Hi John
I would like to pick you brains again, I have enlarged my plans from 1:24 to 1:12 and proceded to convert the half frames to full frames using tracing paper. I since transposed a number of these onto my 4mm ply. I have noted that I appear to be making a complete hash of all the frames in respect of the area where the top chine stringer locates. It appears I have been unable to correctly translate this from the drawing. If I look at the plans the frame view it seems the view showing half frames from the bow to the forth frame have somewhat rounded corners.
Can you advise how to get this part of the marking out as accurate as I can considering my limited experience with this level of build.
Thanks
Mike
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Hi Mike
After reading your posting, may I express a little concern here. The concern is to do with your proposed use of using 4mm ply - for the frames. What concerns me is, the overall length of this hull will be some 60 inches long. The frame spacings in that - to use 4mm ply for frames - of a hull this size - you really need to be having double the amount of frames into the build. The preferred thickness should be 8mm thick ply for the frames; and then you could comfortably accommodate 6mm square stringers, which I think you are going to have to add 2-3 more stringers per side and bottom than I myself fitted into my model.
A bit food for thought for you Mike.
Now the next thing, your chine line - if you see on the build which I am doing at the moment, you will see I actually marked in what they call the water lines onto the frames; these are the horizontal lines which you see marked onto the frames. You also see the vertical lines. These lines, when they are traced onto the actual ply wood help us keep the trueness of the frame, knowing that the vertical lines should be parallel with the centre line of the frame; and, also, the horizontal lines should be parallel to the building board line. - This is how I keep the squareness and trueness of my frames sometimes. The other thing to think of, we are going to put notches in for the chine stringer, and, so the radius' which I believe you may be concerned about - will be removed, because you will be cutting the notches out to facilitate the fixing of the chine stringer.
I hope this helps you a bit, if not, you know where I am - you have the Forum and my email address also. {-) O0 O0
aye
john e
bluebird
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John
Your concern over the 4mm ply is noted, I was planning on using these as templates for the final build as they would be useful if I wanted to rebuild hull for diffrent variant of this craft. The small problem I have found is the I can not seem to get the top outer edge of the frames where the top chine I think it is refered to as the deck chine correct.
The drawings are a not as positive as I would have felt comfertable with to ensure accuracy. The pictures you posted show a more positive and defined layout. I am continplating going back to phase one and drawing the fames based on the line drawings rather than tracing half frames and converting to full frames from enlarged frame drawings.
Mike
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Hi John
Just seen the photos of the almost completed Whaleback. Congratulations, it is without a doubt the most accurate model of one of these I'm aware of O0
In answer to your question I'd say the only things left are the finishing touches i.e. the roundels, the red & white chequer board markings and the ensign.
Take care,
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O0 Christian
Thank you very much for the kind compliments. With regard to the checker boarding, can you answer this, I read in a book that the red and white chequer board markings on the foredeck are only painted on when the vessel had equipment aboard to communicate with aircraft? ah....
The roundells are on my son's painting board - reason why - he can paint circles great! I can't - I can't paint ...... :embarrassed:
the Ensign - story behind that one....I ordered a small one instead of the large.
What we have missed - have a look at the number on the deck - the centre of the 6 is supposed to be white edged.......I will do that. :D O0
John
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Hi John
Your attention to historical detail is as good as your attention to modelling detail as the HSLs were painted with an over-all grey scheme on the upperworks with only the wheelhouse roof in yellow (they had all yellow upperworks including the decks previously) and later when they were all fitted with VHF they were painted up with the red & white chequer-board pattern on the foredeck. So your model depicts her in between the two schemes, nice one!
Kind regards,
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Good grief, now I'm hallucinating, I'm imagining that you have floated 2 boats in 2 weeks, cant be true. :o
Next I will be imagining that you have at long last floated your PT boat John.
Must go for a lie down, think the glue fumes have got at me. Managed 3 hours in the shed today.
Boat looks great John. O0
Must be the first time youve built one quicker than me ;)
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Hi John O0
Finished the documents now have changed them to PDF files and on disc. Have all the pictures of the completed model and the ones on the water..looks great O0 O0
Whats next ???? :)
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Hi there Bluebird.
Just seen the latest photos of the "almost finished" as you put it, of this build.
Looks really great! Job well done if you ask me.
Now I'm sitting looking at the plans for this boat and thinking; How can I slpi this one past SWMBO ???
Shall we just say she is not a great fan of "warships"....
Would also just like to say a big thank you for a very good Master class. I'm looking forwards to the next one.
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O0
thank you for the kind comments . Just go for it mate, it is an enjoyable build - nothing ventured nothing gained. O0 O0
Aye
John
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Hi Bluebeard.
Studied your build thread with interest ,I'm building a deans marine ASRL The superstructure (replaced) portholes seem to be large if you cut them out to the marked line. any ideas as to how to make them a neater looking porthole?
If I was to make the porthole smaller I would still be left with the raised cut out line would it be worth using fine plastic strip to make a frame of sorts ?Any advise welcomed.Chris
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Bluebeard here oh ah...me hearties.... :-)) :-)) :-))
Hi there Chris, Would there be any way of backing off the portholes with thin plasticard on the inside? rubbing down and rubbing off the raised area on the outside??
Then recutting a smaller side window/s /portholes in the plasticard which you have pasted on the inside of the superstructure.
As I did, you could then put plastic inserts in, the correct size, fill them with either Plastic filler/P38 car body filler.
This would blend in the oversize opening to the new size - this would be the way I would approach it - but, don't forget, there are 'eyebrows' over the top of the portholes - I don't know if these 'eyebrows' are included on the mouldings, but, they are a noticeable feature on the vessel.
The other thing to take note of, are the wheelhouse side windows; they are slightly wrong on Deane's , as far as I can see anyway. The little triangular one at the front - the bottom of the triangle actually slopes down slightly - I will try and dig out a photograph to show you what I mean :-))
Hope this helps.
aye
john e
bluebird
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Thanks bluebeard,
Allowing for the eyebrow over the top would solve it ,I had cut the entire raised part of the plastic away leaving a gapping chasm rather than a porthole i will give it a go .Thanks again .
Chris
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John as someone who is recently starting in the hobby of boat modeling I have found your build both informing and interesting, I look forward to seeing the finished model.
Geoff (flytier07 )
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I have just found the site. Interesting to read about the whaleback, i built one some years ago from John Prichard,s plan but i couldn,t make the domes so i just left them as wire frames without glazing, maybe now i might try and glaze them although supplies have to be mail order. My whaleback is No 156 with yellow deck which it had and later it was painted gray, I have 9 RAF boats.
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hi there John
Thanks for the comments, I have one other air sea rescue launch - Vosper 72 ft one - there are some photographs on this forum of the model.
With regard to making the domes, I myself had several attempts at making them. What I found was that the 2 pieces of plywood which hold the perspex in place (with the hole in the centre) don't clamp these together too tightly. Leave them slack enough, so, that with a bit of pressure you can move the perspex between the 2 pieces of plywood. Then, heat the whole assembly up in a conventional oven, so that the perspex just begins to 'sag' then take it out of the oven and then force your male former through the hole.
Also as a note, on your male former put a reference mark for where to stop - in that way you don't push too far through and split the dome.
Another thing is, when you build the plastic cage around the outside of the clear plastic dome, paint the inner edges of your plastic strip which come into contact with your dome. Paint them either a matt black/dark grey as, if you don't the white plastic shows through like a sore thumb when you have finished.
If you need any more help send me a pm.
Hi Flytier07, the model is all but finished now - there wasn't much more to do to it when the last pics were put on here. The only thing I have done now is to put NiCad batteries in her; and it is keeping her on the surface of the water and also trying to increase the running time on the water. 7 mins running time is a little bit short.....
aye
john e
bluebird
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THANK,S For the info on the domes, i tried DEANS but they wont sell them and i need 7, two each for the "HANT,S AND DORSET" and the "WHALEBACK" and 3 for the "THORNEYCROFT" I did panel the turrets in the "HANTS and DORSET' and the "THORNEYCROFT" with individual panels but they are not good . There is a small hobby shop 400km away so next time i go there i will see if any PVC type material is available
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Many thanks Bluebird! (fellow Geordie) Your detailed,precise and clear photos/explanation of the frame/planking methods of hull construction are outstanding, your methods have enabled the complex sweeping/curving hull/superstructure lines of this boat to be carefully/exactly represented - no easy task. Some years ago I wanted to do a large scale Elco 80, now less rare, and the more I studied the hull the more I was worried, until I finlly gave up - I wish your tutorial had been around then - compared to the whaleback the 80 hull is comparatively easy, a doddle, using your construction methods. (It's a shame some grp hull manufacturer did'nt make a plug/mould of your fine hull.) There seems to be no alternative to short duration nicads other than ic with smaller hull sizes. Seven minutes is short. Getting the hull ballasted down into the water and with enough power to plane is very problematic to get the right high speed 'scale look'. :-) This boat I think must be the most difficult of the coastal craft to model and get right - Well done! :-)
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As a new member, I have just joined, I was interested in the correspondence over the 63 ft. Whale Back launch . This may be a bit late
as I note the dates for most of the correspondence was over a year ago! However some body might find this helpful , in Model Boats
magazine October 1981 there is a article by John Pritchard together with a small plan( the full scale can be purchased from M.B. )
on the 130 R.A.F. rescue launch together with some photos taken on service. I have also noted someone asking about the turrets;
some years ago I built a small model of one of these craft and successfully made them out of car light bulbs the thought occurs to me
that the larger round 15/ 25 watt clear lamp bulbs would do an job on a larger scale. It is a tedious job removing the filament
but worth the effort . soak in hot water and gently manipulate the base until it begins to loosen, great care should be taken to avoid
breakage's which could result in a nasty cut ! I would recommend that the younger members of our fraternity have a adult help.
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Hello Bluebird
I am just going through building a 1:20 scale PT Boat, I downloaded the drawings from http://www.pt-boat.com I just wanted to say thanks for the fantastic Masterclass, Well done!! :-)
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Hi Andrew and welcome to the forum mad house :-))
If you have a look at this build http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=9865.0
by Martin doon under this may help you with your PT build as well ,plus there is the RTTL 2751 build
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=20758.0
aye
john
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Hi there, John, please come back on the Forum.
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Does anyone have an up to date source for plans for this boat please?
I am eager to build a boat of this style and size.
Rgds Ken
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Hi
The Model Boat Shack produce A Whaleback hull in 1/16 scale.
Gra
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Check out Bluebird s original article - very bottom of page
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=9758.0
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I think Bluebird based his beautiful model on a plan set drawn by John Pritchard which is currently available:
http://www.myhobbystore.co.uk/product/16744/raf-rescue-launch-mm1320
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Hello
Could someone please tell me if it is common not to hear back from the dealer of the plans from the link posted above for two months? This is my Second attempt at contacting the seller with NO reply. Are they still in business? Please let me know, if there is a special way to go to contact the plans source to find out in what form the plans are sent; CD or drawn out in 1/24 scale on paper and what the total to Canada is.
Thanks for the Help.
George
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G/day George,
I have the plan at 1/24 scale I might be able to mail it to you if cost is not to much.
Graham
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I look forward to seeing how you do them, I wimped out with my 1/24th Thornycroft HSL and bought them from Deans Marine but that's not an option for you. I have heard people have used the valve out of old radios though..
What did you think of For Those In Peril?
The sea shall not have them was another ASR film B&W worth watching for details.Available from Amazons also is For those in Peril
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I scratch built one of these boats in 1986,1/24th scale.. with a dremel as the most advances tool I had at the time.. now that I have some more advanced tools, the advances in motors,ESC's,batteries and 3D printing.. It's time to build another this time 1/16th.. I've had the plans and wood waiting for a couple of months.. been doing lots of photo research(all I had was plans and the Airfix 1/72 model kit the first time)have gathered a few books.. So it was time to make some sawdust and shavings..
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/921/2NAFqi.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pl2NAFqij)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/923/zIF3Li.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pnzIF3Lij)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/922/4JpiH3.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pm4JpiH3j)
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I do love double diagonal %) planking Mr Smith...always seems a pity to paint over it......
Do you have a fetish :kiss:....for power saw blades?...
I certainly do.......three x 85mm diameter TCT blades for my Proxxon table saw for $18.00 including delivery from Hong Kong.....I think they are made on CNC machining, silver soldering and precision grinding stations..............
Derek
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Excellent! :-))
I scratch built one of these boats in 1986,1/24th scale.. with a dremel as the most advances tool I had at the time.. now that I have some more advanced tools, the advances in motors,ESC's,batteries and 3D printing.. It's time to build another this time 1/16th.. I've had the plans and wood waiting for a couple of months.. been doing lots of photo research(all I had was plans and the Airfix 1/72 model kit the first time)have gathered a few books.. So it was time to make some sawdust and shavings..
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some of the photos show the planks on the deck fairly well, thinking about a thin plywood sub-deck that will be glassed and then adding pre epoxy coated planks to achieve the look.. link to more on this build http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2581824
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first layer planks about done, starting to see those great lines of the hull..
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/922/Oo2CgF.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pmOo2CgFj)
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Really good . Second layer opposite way ?
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yes, the double diagonal as in the prototype construction, once both layers are in place the hull will be cut free from the building board, thinned epoxy poured and brushed on the inside (no excess resin, no excess weight) sand and prep the exterior followed by a layer of fine glass and resin.. I'm looking at a total weight of 7.5-8 lbs for this boat, watching weight where I can,, I spent several days dremeling out "weight" on my 1/24th scale version so it would get up on plane..would rather have some extra room at the end of the build to add extras like a sound system...
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Please excuse my ignorance but this is my first ever post ... I am trying to address a message regarding a question concerning (Re: Q&A - 63 FOOT RAF AIR SEA RESCUE LAUNCH by Bluebird) ... to Bluebird ... Dear Sir, I write to you with a request for information concerning a 'Hants & Dorset' 63 Foot ASR HSL # 2595 (Hand made to John Pritchard Plans # MM1358 1/2 inch to the foot) ... My Dad, Tom Weaving in Calgary, Alberta, Canada has hand built this model 'Plank-On-Plank' ... Double Diagonal ... as he served with RAF Marine Services Maritime Division in Madagascar and towards the end of WWII in Colton and Newhaven on these boats. My apologies, I digress, Dad, now 95 and due to failing eyesight has passed along his boat to myself to complete by attaching all finishing details ... My first question is regarding the AW-11 Manually Operated Gun Turret from the AVRO Anson which was modified by RAF Marine Services to AW-77 configuration for installation on these 'Hants & Dorset' HSL's, which has been confirmed in letter by the RAF Museum in England ... Can you advise as to where I can obtain a Dimensioned Technical Drawing for these Turrets to enable me to fabricate same for installation on his model ? ... I can provide photos of completion stage of Dad's Boat thus far but must confess I have absolutely no idea of how to attach them in this excellent blog & your fantastic model with detail I would love to include in Dad's boat as I have promised to send it to the RAF ASR Museum in the UK after completion with his compliments when the appropriate time arrives ... Can you please help with sources of any information available ? ... Thank You in advance for your support & cooperation, Kind Regards, Alan Weaving, West Kelowna, British Columbia, Canada.
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Correction on Dad's last postings ... I believe it should read Calshot & Newhaven ? ... Again my apologies for the error.
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Hi there Alan, if you have a look at my Avatar you will see my name Bluebird - if you click on my name = it brings up my profile - you will see it brings up personal messages. I will send you a test message - then I can respond to you off the forum - test message being sent. Once we have done that I can respond to your queries.
John
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Firstly John, thanks belatedly for a terrific account of your build of the 63' RAF Rescue Launch, the Whaleback. I should think you've just about forgotten it by now, whereas I have been thinking about it in detail for the last few weeks. On the strength of your article and the bottomless pit of information that seems to be available through Model Boat Mayhem, I have decided to attempt a 1:12 scale Whaleback, based on Mr.Pritchard's drawings, supplemented by all the photos and information I can get my hands on. If mine comes out even half as good as yours, I will be well pleased.
Taking your advice on deciding early on what motors to put in it and also having a go at planning required batteries and wiring, I wonder if you could give me some guidance please? (Here we go again; the age-old question, I bet you can guess what's coming. What motors?)
I have decided that brushless motors and their attendant electronics just isn't worth the hassle for a relative novice, so I think that three brushed 900 motors running on NiMh might be suitable, but others are suggesting three 700 motors, or even 800 or 850. Am I going for overkill here, would I be better off with 800 or 850 motors and what revs should I be looking for, 5000, 8500? 45mm props at three blade?
Action controls seem a very sensible choice (or as near as) and they have what looks like a perfect set up for three motors, but their circuit diagram for a Fairmile C is using 12 volt. Do I need to go to 24 volt? All I really want is to get the hull planing like the real thing, but I am totally stumped with prop sizes, revs and power requirements. Yes, I know, it is difficult to state hard and fast recommendations for any given model and I am not looking for a definite specification, but I would be very grateful for whatever guidance either you or anybody could offer with regard to at least a starting point, something which would be, as a minimum, powerful and fast enough.
Just one more question please. You mentioned in your write-up a small anomaly on the plans with reference to the beam measurement. I noticed this when the plans arrived today and so checked a copy of the original BPB General arrangement. This seems odd too! If the boat was 63' long and 17'-6" beam, is it worth scaling up the hull sections in relation to the overall length? The plans would give a 16'-3" beam.
Well, that's it for now, wish me luck trying to make 80mm diameter turret domes.
Thanks for any guidance you or anyone else might be able to offer and happy sailing.
Chris.