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Author Topic: Learning CAD & to draw properly - can it be done from a book?  (Read 6489 times)

RipSlider

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hello all.

I'm getting more and more annoyed with myself at my total - and I do mean total - inability to convert images in my head into pictures on a page.

without a word of a lie, my drawing ability is absolutely ideantical to my god son Alfie ( I know.. I know... what a terrble name. I did *TRY* to convnce the parents of this ) and he is 5 years old.

this mostly comes from being dyslexic and having another weird condition called aspergers. Mix the two up and it's really difficult to get something inside your head to make sense out-side of it.

Over the years I've developed a system of being able to write/type. Which involves numbers, colours, mental images etc etc. All very odd sounding ( and makes me sound a bit like Rain man or something)  and an utter pain in the backside, but at least if I want to write a word it actually comes out somewhat similar on the page to what I was thinking.


I've never developed a similar system for drawing though - mostly becuase up until recently I've never really needed to draw much. In work I need to draw diagrams for my systems design work, but here again I have got my own system which I can teach to others. With drawing, I don't think it is going to be easy.


What I need is a riourous, fixed way process of taking an image in my head and getting it down on paper. If there is a standard method, I'll be able to slowly get better at it. the more rigorous the better.

ideally, I'd like to end up beng able to produce a single picture that makes sense. For example, have a look at some of Bluebird's diagrams on this site - they seem to be freehand isometric pictures - and everyone who looks at them understand them.

So question 1 is:

1) Is there a book somewhere that can provide a standard method to let me draw like this?

If not, I thought about using technical drawing. It doesn't look as pretty, but the 3-view process is very strict and controlled, and I might be able to be OK at that. However, I have ben told that is it very difficult to learn technical drawing from a book. there is a local 8-week course here in York, but they want £5,200 for it, and I'm not sure I value being able to draw THAT much.

so, two questions here:
2) is it practical to learn technical drawing from a book alone?
3) if so, does anyone have a reccommenation for one that they think will be good?

Question 4 is:
If it's NOT practical to learn to draw from a book, is there any other ways that people can suggest?

Sorry for the long post.

 Many thanks in advance

Steve
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Re: Learning CAD & to draw properly - can it be done from a book?
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2008, 04:10:57 pm »

Ripslider,
That's an interesting problem you have there. This may or may not help you.
There are basic books for learning technical drawing - students used them for ages back in the dark days. Sorry, it's so long ago I can't remember the titles / authors.
As a youngster we started drawing at about eleven years of age and carried on for about another ten years. If you can accept rigid rules / methods, you may well be able to pick the different forms of projection up, once you get the basic idea it is fairly straightforward. Drawback, I suppose, do you have access to drawing equipment? (board, tee square, set squares, compasses etc.).
The modern alternative is to go down the cad route. Now this I know will generate howls of disagreement from many, use a simple cad programme, leave out all the complex packages and simply play with it. My answer when I started into cad was to try a number of makes. I finally settled on a German one, TSCAD. (Marketed as Tommysoft Cad). I got a free demo from a magazine, tried it, liked it - so much so that I bought the package (cheapo job at that time). This was version 2, it does what it says on the tin. Yes, there are heavy packages around (e.g. Autocad), you'll spend ages trying to find out how they work even if you have a manual for them (I find the books make it harder for the straightforward stuff!). Of course, your local college will, no doubt, be only too pleased to take a lot of your pennies to teach you.
I used this at work to teach students basic cad. Even lads who could barely hold a pencil let alone draw a line took to it with some ease. If you are reasonable at using a computer, it could well be your solution.
It doesn't matter which route you go down, if there is some friendly patient person around to help you get started, it does make life that little bit easier.

As a first step, how about raiding your local library. Even if they don't have the books in stock, they can obtain them through the library exchange scheme. Smile nicely at the lady behind the desk and ask for text books covering basic engineering drawing methods or techniques. You never know........
If you see the problem in print before you, it may just help you to realise that you can take it on.
Good hunting.
Regards.
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Reade Models

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Re: Learning CAD & to draw properly - can it be done from a book?
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2008, 05:50:47 pm »

Hi Ripslider

I read your post with interest.

I am a registered CAD manger and design engineer and have been using AutoCAD (amongst many other CAD packages) since the 1980's for a living - I still use it on a daily basis.

My advice to you would be to look to your local college that offers adult education courses.  Most of them do basic AutoCAD training at a fraction of the cost that you have been previously quoted (probably less than £100)?  As a registered student, you would also likely be entitled to buy a licence for a an AutoCAD 'seat' at a huge discount - The retail price of AutoCAD LT (Lite) is around £900 these days, the full product costing way over £3K.  The cost to registered students is often minimal however.

Why AutoCAD?  Basically because it's the one that everybody in industry uses, it's stable, it works, and most importantly, there are loads of people around who can use it who will help you learn.

Dislexia need not be a barrier, CAD packages are highly 'visual'.  You might have a little trouble typing commands, but then all AutoCAD's commands have equivalent Icons - you can use it to it's full capacity without actually touching the keyboard (apart from numeric entries).  Besides, a lot of dislexic people have highly advanced geometry and arthmetical skills.  You might well turn out to be a fast learner and become a real 'Ace'!

I wish you all the best with this, please keep us all posted as to how you get on?

Regards,

Malc

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FullLeatherJacket

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Re: Learning CAD & to draw properly - can it be done from a book?
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2008, 06:15:12 pm »

Steve

I can't endorse what Malc has said enough. I went to evening classes for a year to learn the 2D aspects of AutoCAD and managed to obtain a C&G certificate. I seem to recall the course cost about a hundred quid. Since then I've used it as my No 1 drawing package, although I do now tend to import the drawings into CorelDRAW afterwards and add the text, colours and fills there. Works for me but, like cars, ask ten people about the best CAD package and you'll get ten different answers.

If you want to see examples of what a complete idiot can achieve after a while mucking about with these programs then have a shufti at the wiring diagrams on our website (ACTion).

I wish I could help with the Aspergers, mate - I really do.

Good luck.

FLJ
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RipSlider

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Re: Learning CAD & to draw properly - can it be done from a book?
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2008, 07:14:10 pm »

Thanks for the responses so far.

It's nice of people to express sympathy with my problem, but please don't see the whole dyslexia/aspergers thing as something to feel bad/sorry about. There are down sides - such as having to count to myself constantly when I type, there are upsides as well. I can calculas in my head without having to do any working out, and i am frigging *amazing* at anagrams - as I  letters as jumbled up anyway - so I guess there are up sides to it all as well.

I do need to say though that this topic's title has been changed slightly from when I posted it originally - I didn't initally ask about CAD as I'm in the process of covering that already.

I think CAD and drawing are different skills, but I think of them as compliments, rather than replacements.

as an example -

at the moment I am playing with some designs for a few concepts of boats. I don't really have any detail around them, just some vauge shapes and idea's that I'd like to post up onto this site to get comments on.

This I see as an Idea job for drawing by hand. Rather than go all out and produce a wonderful CAD model - which - becuase the shapes I'm thinking of are fairly complex, may take a few hours per diagram - it would be nice to be able to knock out 4 or 5 different diagrams in 20 minute's, post them up here, get comments, then do another raft of 4 or 5 and post the again.

However, when the concept is roughly is "right" - that would then seem to be an ideal time to use CAD to get everything sorted out properly and  be able to extract things like former templates straight out of the package.

Perhaps I'm wrong - and if I am please shout - but I see drawing by hand as an excellent way of prototyping idea's, and drawing in CAD as a way of solidifying those idea's and producing "locked" articles.

Also, there is a degree of envy here as well. It would be nice to actually be able to draw! most people seem to be able to do it.

As far as CAD goes, I'm just about to start classes on an evening. However, I showed the teacher a few pictures of what I wanted to be able to draw in CAD - things like my EarthRace build etc, and he said that it would take even him a few hours, and that it was "much" more advanced than this course would take me.

So: Drawing for concepts/prototypes/messing about with idea's
CAD for higher quality work.

CAD for me will be OK I think - the fact that it's in a computer means it is inheriently pretty "strict" in the way it works and so I should be able to get OK at it.



Final example:

Have a look (becuase I can't mak the link work at the moment ) at the Q+A post for the Cervia Tug build in the Master Classes topic. Someone asked bluebord how to build a davit. So he drew a picture. i "think" it's freehand - it's just a sketch showing how different things work and fit together. That's all I really want to be able to do.

Ah ha! link:

http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=9788.0


Steve
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kiwi

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Re: Learning CAD & to draw properly - can it be done from a book?
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2008, 09:12:35 pm »

Steve,
while I basically agree with all the replies you have received, it appears from your last post, that is more in the freehand sketching field you require the most help. Books, and /or short courses on technical drawing should help, as well as similar on freehand pencil and charcoal sketching. BUT, the biggest help would be to PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. The books and courses will give you the technical methods, etc. and to develop this requires simply doing it, over and over again. One method which has helped a number of my friends is to place a transparent sheet over a photo of something similar to what you want to sketch and trace it out. Do this with everything to get the hang of how things look and associate this with whats in your head, and you hopefully will then get the required connection. This simplifies the depth and perspective aspects, rendering them more into an exercise in 2D.
I am very lucky, in that I can see a part in solid 3D in my head from a 2 dimension engineering drawing, and could even before I embarked on a life as a Design Draughtsman, started on the drawing board way before computers came along. As to CAD, its just another pencil, and being very mildly dislexic myself, find I use the mouse and ikons for more than 95% of my work. I use Autocad on a daily basis professionally, because the companies use this, as its always been cheap. There are much better programs out there, but even their student versions cost more than Full Autocad. It is possible to learn from books, but personal help also eases the path. With CAD, just go for it, and use it, try different things and see what happens. As in most things, constant use will result in improved skills.
Hope a little of this helps
kiwi
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John W E

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Re: Learning CAD & to draw properly - can it be done from a book?
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2008, 09:28:41 pm »

Hi there Steve

I must confess I have the autocad programme and if at all, I very rarely use it.   I am one from the old school of drawing board and T square - it is my preference and only my preference.  When I was first taught how to draw; I was taught to think of a simple object, such as a square, then sketch that square roughly on a piece of paper - then visualise in my mind what it looked liked from the top - thus giving it some depth - also Imagine what it looked like from the side.

How you actually drew these shapes, and, how accurate did not really matter  -  it was more getting these shapes from your mind onto the paper that counted.

When you are scribbling your thoughts and they do not look right - you can erase them and start again until you are happy and right with it.

Then, when you are happy with your three views; you then move on to your 3rd dimensional view - which you roughly sketched out - keeping all lines very lightly drawn - so then any mistakes can be easily rubbed out.

When you are happy with your scribble, as we call it, where you would possibly move on to cad - I would go to the drawing board  :) the one thing which I really like is once you have done a main drawing; you can overlay this main drawing with tracing paper - thus adding alterations and if you do not approve or don't like the alterations you are doing - you have not disturbed your main drawing underneath.   This is how I was taught to do Naval Architectural drawing.

aye
john e
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Reade Models

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Re: Learning CAD & to draw properly - can it be done from a book?
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2008, 09:29:42 pm »


Hi Ripslider

Bluebird sure draws a mean davit! A true Leonardo of the modelling world! ;D  John's drawing, which I hadn't seen before, certainly does have that 'Leonardo' look about it.

Drawing skills are just what they say on the tin - they are skills, and they have to be learned and developed.  I spent the first 25 years of my working life working on a drawing board, mostly working with ink on Mylar (plastic) film, and occasionally on linen, modifying drawings that were sometimes more than a hundred years old.  It was a privilege to be allowed to do so, and gave me confidence that I had learned my craft properly.

I have gazed in awe at Stevenson's drawing for his 'Rocket' and marvelled at the way he toleranced the piston.  Someting like "the gap between the piston and the bore shall take no more space than would be occupied by a worn sixpence".  How things have changed?

I could never produce the sort of work that a master of his art like John Lambert does, not on a drawing board anyway, but I believe that I certainly could using AutoCAD, and with all due respect to Mr Lambert, probably a lot quicker than he.  But then, it's not a race.

As for freehand drawing, my own belief is that anybody has either got the ability or they haven't?  The truth is that whilst I could produce work on a drawing board or CAD system that would satisfy anybody, my own freehand drawing skills are abysmal - I'm no artist.  I am sure that if, like you, I was prepared to apply myself, I could become better at it than I am, and surely that is the joy of the whole process?  A challenge to be met?

One point that I would make which tends to run against your argument for your "drawing for concepts, CAD for higher quality work" etc. view is that when I have to convey an idea to a fellow engineer, I invariably reach for my AutoCAD workstation, and not a sketch pad and pencil! Horses for courses?

Going back to your original question, yes, there are many books to be read on the CAD subject - CAD for Dummies etc. but I don't think that you would learn anything from reading them in isolation?  To get the best out of any of them, you would really need to sit at a CAD workstation and work your way through the exercises that they contain.

Best regards,

Malc

 
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John W E

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Re: Learning CAD & to draw properly - can it be done from a book?
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2008, 09:40:14 pm »

......  O0 {-) and..... here is one I sketched earlier - took me ruddy ages to get this one right - no autocad around to help with the mistakes on this one - its supposed to be the wife - but it looks nowt like her  {-) :D :D :D :D :D :D
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Reade Models

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Re: Learning CAD & to draw properly - can it be done from a book?
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2008, 09:46:38 pm »



Priceless!  {-) {-) {-)

Malc

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Tug-Kenny RIP

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Re: Learning CAD & to draw properly - can it be done from a book?
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2008, 09:49:01 pm »

I was in the process of suggesting oil painting when your posting came through.

Ripslider, have you tried painting freehand ? Not necessarily copying anything, but just trying the brush on paper and doodling ?

Ken
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Reade Models

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Re: Learning CAD & to draw properly - can it be done from a book?
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2008, 11:11:34 pm »



Quote
I didn't initally ask about CAD as I'm in the process of covering that already.

Hi Ripslider

I'm sorry if I missed the point of your original post, I was responding based on the title subject of the thread...

Quote
Learning CAD & to draw properly - can it be done from a book?

Regards, Malc

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RipSlider

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Re: Learning CAD & to draw properly - can it be done from a book?
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2008, 01:52:43 am »

No problem.

A certain Global Admin moved the post for me - as I put it in the wrong place initially - and some how the title changed to include CAD - I think to make it a bit more inclusive.

Steve
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Reade Models

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Re: Learning CAD & to draw properly - can it be done from a book?
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2008, 06:34:49 am »



Bluebird

Can you confirm that it's Edinburgh Castle that you've sketched in the background of the portrait of your missus?  And how did you get her eyes to look at you from anywhere in the room?

Regards, Malc

 {-) {-)


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John W E

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Re: Learning CAD & to draw properly - can it be done from a book?
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2008, 10:46:43 am »

............... sorry its not Edinburgh Castle - it is in fact a BOUNCY CASTLE that we borrowed from the garden down the road.....  :o :o :o :D :D {-) :) ;)

and hey as for her eyes - be careful they are sussing out the wallet  :o :o :D :D ::) :-X

aye
john e
bluebird
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Re: Learning CAD & to draw properly - can it be done from a book?
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2008, 11:29:47 am »

Hi there

Steve – I was just having a little think about your drawing – why don’t you try and get yourself an ‘old’ nut and bolt and using that as a model to copy for your sketching; practising using objects like that will, not only increase your drawing skill, but, also build confidence in your drawing.  I have included a small scribble to show you how I set out the beginnings of an idea.

I normally scribble this on a scrap piece of paper and obviously depending on the idea that I have in mind, it will go through many variations but, I tend to keep the scribbles I can compare them.   If you see, I start off with an end view and then draw out the side view – then sketching in an isometric guidelines I build up the image in a 3D view – try practicing this and it will not take you long before you master it.
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RipSlider

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Re: Learning CAD & to draw properly - can it be done from a book?
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2008, 12:24:20 pm »

Once again - thank you to all who have responded - it has been very useful indeed.

Any other cunning plans that anyone has, please keep them coming.

Bluebird - is that diagram purely freehand, or have use used implements (squares, tirangles etc ) to produce it - especially the isometic view ( or is it a parametric view? I know the difference is in the angle, but I can't remeber which is which   :( :( )

Steve
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John W E

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Re: Learning CAD & to draw properly - can it be done from a book?
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2008, 06:24:05 pm »

Hi there Steve

it is all freehand me drawing is - no implements used whatsoever just paper and pencil.    What I really should have done is outlined all the guidelines in a thicker pencil so you could see them, as they dont show up as in the scan.

The 3rd view is supposed to be isometric  O0

Just keep on scribbling, drawing & practising.   Rome was certainly not built in a day my friend, but, it may have been built in a fortnight with Paddy & Murphy's help. {-) {-)

aye
John e
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hanna

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Re: Learning CAD & to draw properly - can it be done from a book?
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2008, 12:46:08 am »

Hi Steve.
just a quick one,back in 65 drawing for me was a big board it was only about 7 years later computers entered my life and so did cad in a way.

as for programs Autocad is the dogs danglers yet it is very technical, great for 3 dimensional but I personly say a bit long winded for 2 dimensional drawings. have a look at this site
http://www.deltacad.com/
I use this for quickies in 2D talk about easy well it is, the main thing to learn with it is which way X and Y are. go and download there demo its good for about a month worth playing with and if you like it its only £20.00 to buy a lot cheaper than the £488.00 I just had to pay to upgrade my autocad to 2009 version.

and before I forget just because its basic don't mean you cant draw complicated 2D projects with it .

good luck

Chris
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kiwi

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Re: Learning CAD & to draw properly - can it be done from a book?
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2008, 02:46:21 am »

Hi,
You follow Bluebirds advice, and you won't go wrong. Learn how to sketch and draw freehand first, Cad can come later, in whatever form you want. There are any number of 2D cad packages, and Deltacad would be one of the best value for money, and if you want 3D - try google sketchup, the free version. Professional Design Engineers now use the full version as a quick method for presentations. Whole lot easier than Autocad, but still has limitations.
Follow Bluebird and it will all come together, practice makes perfect as they say. Just don't run into murphy.
I started on Blue linen, with ruling pens, but still had to go the long slog and practice.
Enjoy yourself sketching
Kiwi
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Captain Povey

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Re: Learning CAD & to draw properly - can it be done from a book?
« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2008, 08:42:27 pm »

Well like most of you on here my education included years of technical drawing with a board and square. I have been on a couple of training courses and followed the exercises with a package but as of today I have not made the full convertion to cad as I still prefer a pencil and rubber (eraser for you Americans). In the design office we have mechanical desktop which I am told is great as you can solid model everything in 3D and then produce the 2D drawings. Sounds great if you can see it in your head but like Autocad it is also very complicated and expensive. Graham.
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Captain Povey

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Re: Learning CAD & to draw properly - can it be done from a book?
« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2008, 08:45:32 pm »

Hi John, nice sketch but where can I get some of those 8 sided bolt heads.  ;D
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Re: Learning CAD & to draw properly - can it be done from a book?
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2008, 08:28:28 pm »

Cheep chinese knock offs probably {-)

I use autcad 2005 at home and at work, another engineer now has my work computer which has LT2008 on it, I like the functionality but as it not the full blown product you cannot generate 3D solids great for collision checks etc and giving customers a visual representation of what he is going to get.

My free hand sketches etc look just like my 7 year olds school pictures.

I like inventer 7 for the ability to spin and move items around their axis, like spinning an impeller in a casing to see if anything collides, great to watch.

Warspite
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