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Author Topic: more rudder cap'n!!  (Read 10398 times)

sunnybob

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more rudder cap'n!!
« on: May 14, 2008, 08:44:13 pm »

Ok, I'm back! The boat has performed well in its sea trials in all but one respect.

Theres not a lot of steering going on!

I have a standard servo, with 45 degrees either side of dead ahead, but I want some more degrees on both sides.

I recall hearing about a gadget that increased servo arc, can anyone point (steer :D) me to it please?
 
Thanks, O0
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Shipmate60

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Re: more rudder cap'n!!
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2008, 09:23:43 pm »

Either extend the length of the servo arm or reduce the length of the rudder arm, both have the same effect.

Bob
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sunnybob

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Re: more rudder cap'n!!
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2008, 09:30:59 pm »

Now, I had just about come to that conclusion, but the servo is connected to the rudder by two brass rods in a "push me pull you" way.
if i increase the length of one arm wont that over stress the rods? If the front arm is traveling further, wont the rods bend?

My brain hurts now :embarrassed: :embarrassed:
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Shipmate60

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Re: more rudder cap'n!!
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2008, 09:37:37 pm »

You set it up on the outer holes on the servo arm and closer ones on rudder arm, did you use adjustable  links?

Bob
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sunnybob

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Re: more rudder cap'n!!
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2008, 10:01:07 pm »

No, I dont have adjustable links. just 2 straight brass wire rods.

I've just been playing, and think i might get what I want by just making a couple of wider arms, one each for servo and rudder. If I keep them the same length, but further apart, then there will be more travel on the outer edges, wont there?.

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Shipmate60

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Re: more rudder cap'n!!
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2008, 10:52:44 pm »

Is this the Canal Boat?
Have you any pics of rudder linkage and rudder/prop.

Bob
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sunnybob

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Re: more rudder cap'n!!
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2008, 12:17:01 am »

no, its a cabin cruiser.

I think I can achieve desired results with wider bars on servo and rudder.
Attached is the best pic I have of the steering, taken a while ago during mock-up stage.
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Re: more rudder cap'n!!
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2008, 08:34:37 am »

sunnybob,
If you use a standard 4 arm servo horn it will be longer than the small one you have fitted.
Just set it up and cut off the 3 unused arms.

Bob
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Re: more rudder cap'n!!
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2008, 09:22:50 am »

Hi,

I think if you increase the length of both servo and rudder arms, keeping them the same length as each other, you will only get the same rudder throw as before.The angle the servo turns through is what dictates the rudder throw.

However, if you have  a larger radious on the servo arm than on the rudder arm, the rotation of the rudder will be increased relative to the servo. This is because the tip of the servo arm travels further to turn (say) 45deg than the rudder arm tip will to turn for the same number of degrees.

Think of it in terms of the circumference of a circle, a 1" circle has a greater circumference than a 1/2" circle but has 360 degrees, just the same as any circle.

Clear? I hope so!

Ian
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FullLeatherJacket

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Re: more rudder cap'n!!
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2008, 09:28:29 am »

I think I can achieve desired results with wider bars on servo and rudder.

At the risk of making myself unpopular, IMHO the only reason for those push-me-pull-you arrangements is psychological. They are  necessary when you have stranded wire cables as connections (so-called "closed loop", such as that system often fitted to RC sailplane rudders) but for stiff, straight pushrods the purpose just eludes me. That's my first point...........

Next, if you think about it, lengthening both the servo and tiller arms by an equal amount will do nothing to increase either the movement or the torque. They both rotate by the same number of degrees now, and they'll do exactly the same even if you double both lengths. Draw a scale picture and work it through (I can feel Bluebird reaching for his pencil as I type!).

The only way you'll increase the throw is by doing as Bob suggests i.e. further out on the servo arm and/or closer in on the tiller arm.

While you're at it, I'd advise you to move the servo back to the next frame aft as close to the rudder as you can get it. Those rods are unnecessarily long and wappy, and need to be as short as possible. Finally, connect one rod from the servo to the tiller. Use model aircraft ball-and-socket adjustable clevises and piano wire of 14 SWG with a threaded adaptor soldered onto each end. If your model shop doesn't stock these  then stop going there!

Works for me, but suit yourself.

FLJ

Just seen Ian's post. Nice to think I'm not alone on this one!  ;)
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Re: more rudder cap'n!!
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2008, 09:59:25 am »

I was thinking exactly the same as FLJ

You only need one push rod, as it is solid. This allows you to move the position of the rod on the servo arm (outwards) and/or tiller arm (inwards), to get the throw you want.

I also seem to remeber that there is another post somewher on here. It says something like 'at speed a rudder angle of more than about 35 degrees is counter productive due to turbuelnce'.
So it might be worth asking - what type of boat is it? how fast is it? do you have probalems at low speed?
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Colin Bishop

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Re: more rudder cap'n!!
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2008, 10:12:46 am »

Just to throw something else into the pot, it isn't the rudder itself that turns the boat, it is the hydrodynamic imbalance it imparts to the hull - a sort of leverage effect. As TT says, once you go beyond a certain angle of throw, and 35 degrees sounds about right to me, the rudder justs acts as a brake.
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FullLeatherJacket

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Re: more rudder cap'n!!
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2008, 10:24:01 am »

Looking at the photo again, that is one big model. It may be that the rudder just isn't big enough.
The turning moment will be a function of the area of the rudder and the angle of deflection. When I made those noisy things that go up into the air I always designed control surfaces with as large an area as looked reasonable and then kept the movements relatively small. Has the same effect on turning as a smaller rudder deflecting more, but much easier on the drag (or turbulence, in this case).
As a very rough estimate I reckon you need between five and six square inches of rudder (balanced) on a beast that size, and 35 degrees each way sounds about right as a maximum.

FLJ
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Re: more rudder cap'n!!
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2008, 10:37:52 am »

You need a set up as FLJ and TT suggest with one rod from the servo to the tiller using model aircraft ball-and-socket adjustable clevises and piano wire of 14 SWG with a threaded adaptor soldered onto each end.

Or you could use M2 steel rod with adjustable klick links or adjustable ball couplings.

These are all available from http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/installation_accessories.html
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John W E

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Re: more rudder cap'n!!
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2008, 11:27:39 am »

Hi one and all

Ah, I see me name has been mentioned....the reason I use a closed loop system for the steering, in the beginning our movement originally comes from the single point of rotation from a Servo.  Going to the laws of physics for every action there is a re-action, and, in the laws of engineering, with a movement of action you also have resistance to overcome, which creates wear.

In our Servo, we are converting a rotating movement into a back and forth movement and then back into a rotating movement – via a system of cranks.   Also in this setup of movement we have a system of leverages.  This also applies strain or friction on our single-point of movement.

To reduce wear/strain on our Servo motor, should we not balance the load equally either side of the pivot point?  You have the same force pushing and an equal force pulling.   The forces around the centre point you will find to be equal.    In other words less strain on the servo motor for a given load.   Think of riding a ‘push bike’ is it easier to turn the handlebars with one hand and arm or is it easier to turn it with two and balance the load of the front wheel – and before anyone clever says you lean a bike over to turn the corner, we are talking theoretically here.

Here then also are some thoughts which date back to when I designed and built my real boats and I had to overcome calculating sizes and positions of rudders.    The rudders when moved one way or the other out of the centre line, have the effect of first of all moving the stern (assuming they are located aft) Athwartships, thereby momentarily causing the fore and aft line of the boat to assume an angle to the path along which the boat is travelling as a consequence the water ahead of the boat, as it is reached, the hull will find a lateral surface presented to it considerably greater and of different form to the usual frontal surface presented in straight running. 

It is the action of this water on the hull surface presented that causes the boat to turn.   It will be seen, therefore, that in order for the boat to turn rapidly and steadily the area of effective lateral surface presented to the oncoming water must be larger in front of the pivoting point than aft of it.   This pivoting point is also dependent to some extent upon the hull form and trim.

In some cases a hull needs the addition of a little additional keel area forward to help turning.   A small plate or fin can produce the same effect.

Given good design, therefore, of the hull from a point of view of its lateral resistance to turning and, a good balance of areas before and aft the pivoting point; there should be no need to have rudders particularly large.

Such area as is provided for rudders is, however, much more efficiently employed when placed under the hull as opposed to being hung on the transom.   In the latter case the water flowing pas the rudder blade will tend to rise and spill over a deflected blade, thereby reducing the impact pressure tending to make the blade effective.  If it is desired to employ an externally hung rudder, it is a good idea to have a plate formed over the rudder blade, which to some extent substitutes for the bottom.

To ensure maximum rudder effect from given blade area, the maximum effect of slipstream from the props should be made use of.  This will involve placing the rudder blade near to the propeller and of such dimensions that nearly all of the disc area of the propeller impinges on the rudder.

It will be noticed very clearly, if, for instance, a large prop involving greater shaft angle has only a small portion of its disc area of slipstream impinging on the rudder.  A considerable fall off in rudder effect results.

To assist in operating the rudder through the normal form of tiller gear, power-operated servo or similar systems are sometimes employed for the larger fast types of craft, but a substantial reduction of turning effort can be achieved by ‘balancing’ the rudder.

This involves locating a certain proportion of the area of the rudder in front of the vertical or stock axis which helps to balance the effort required to force the rudder blade into the path of the oncoming water and slipstream.

In practice there is a limit to this amount, as although quite a large degree of balance can be used to help in the initial angles, after a certain point ‘reversal’ can and does take place, which has the effect of helping the rudder too much too hard over, the oncoming water then holding it thereby a considerable force.

About 22/23 percent of balance is the maximum which has been found to be safe to use.

The shape of a section of a rudder suitable for high speed craft is a subject which has been debated rather widely by the various authorities concerned.  There are at least two considerations which have to be taken into account here.

There is the case where the rudder is amidships when the optimum shape will be that which offers least resistance to forward motion.  Here the situation could be expected to be similar to that described in the case of the strut, where optimum section beyond a certain speed will probably envisage maximum chord about midway between leading and training edge.  Entry and exit should be sharp.

The other consideration refers to the qualities possessed by the rudder from the point of view of turning.  Here the situation is somewhat different, in that the flow of water will impinge on the leading edge of the rudder at an angle.  For maximum effect here a rather blunt rounded section will probably prove most effective.

Equally, when considering the efficiency of the rudder section from the point of view of turning, it will be found that it is undesirable to reduce the trailing edge to a point; some reasonable width here greatly assists the effectiveness of the rudder.

Aye
John e
Bluebird
I wonder should I have posted this on Nautical strange but true  ::)
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DickyD

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Re: more rudder cap'n!!
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2008, 11:43:29 am »

Pure poetry John, absolutely wonderful, a stroke of genius, so much effort, put your heart and soul into it.
So we need two rods and you're not sure about the size of the rudder
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John W E

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Re: more rudder cap'n!!
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2008, 11:54:00 am »

Hi there

To calculate the size of rudders required; we need several pieces of information first i.e. the total 'wetted' surface area of the hull; at a given speed. The average shape of the hull in a block co-efficient, Also, shaft angles of the propeller shafts, the size of propellers and the blade areas - along with RPM at the desired running speed and shaft horse power.   This will help us to calculate the centre of turning reistance on the hull.

A quicker way Dicky is to go to ACTion Electronics and purchase a motor rudder mixer  {-) 

aye
john
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Re: more rudder cap'n!!
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2008, 11:58:56 am »

Good god I've started him off again. :-\ >>:-(

Haven't you got a ship to build John ?

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Shipmate60

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Re: more rudder cap'n!!
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2008, 12:07:47 pm »

I am with Bluebird on this one.
With a single operating arm it is possible when going astern that the force of the water forces the rudder too far one way and it ends up jammed as the pivot has gone over centre.
Where possible I always use 2 actuators then this cannot happen.
Does this happen often, not really, but when it does the rudder is jammed one way.
This happened on SteamBoatPhil's springer at Beale. So it can happen to even the most experienced modellers.

Bob
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Shipmate60

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Re: more rudder cap'n!!
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2008, 12:12:46 pm »

Just checked the pic again.
Can you confirm she is single screw twin rudder?

Bob
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Re: more rudder cap'n!!
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2008, 12:25:23 pm »

Judging from the width of the beam and the position of the shaft i would say she is Twin screw with what looks like the ESC between both shafts.
I maybe wrong but thats what it looks like as the shaft looks too far over for a single screw.

Need a overhead pic of the whole set-up me thinks O0 ;D

Jay
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Re: more rudder cap'n!!
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2008, 12:43:05 pm »

It is not always the case that we need two arms, and in some cases it may not be a good idea.

For example when you want to increase the throw of an arm.
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Re: more rudder cap'n!!
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2008, 12:45:06 pm »

Just for the benefit of anyone reading who is unfamiliar with the term 'balanced rudder' I have attached a diagram.

It is something that had to be explained to me.
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Shipmate60

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Re: more rudder cap'n!!
« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2008, 12:51:02 pm »

You are right she is twin screw twin rudder.
A pic of the props rudders would be of great help if possible.

Bob
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Re: more rudder cap'n!!
« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2008, 01:26:33 pm »

I
Where possible I always use 2 actuators then this cannot happen.
Does this happen often, not really, but when it does the rudder is jammed one way.
This happened on SteamBoatPhil's springer at Beale. So it can happen to even the most experienced modellers.

Bob
Not really a good example Bob, isn't SteamBoatPhil into straight running   ::)
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