Model Boat Mayhem

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length.
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Down

Author Topic: "It was a dark and stormy night......"  (Read 14428 times)

Martin (Admin)

  • Administrator
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 23,366
  • Location: Peterborough, UK
    • Model Boat Mayhem
"It was a dark and stormy night......"
« on: September 30, 2008, 12:03:15 pm »


I'm in the middle of building a couple of kits at the moment and once again I find myself becoming angrier by the minute at the terrible instructions, plans and diagrams. Is it just me?

I seems sometimes all the time, effort and money are spent on the kit production and the instructions are quickly ‘knocked up’ the night before the kit is released. OK, ok, writing good / useable instructions can't be easy but I tell ya, building to those instructions is much harder! In these days on the 'tinternet, email, CD's, DVD's etc, etc. the instructions can easily be updated, corrected, clarified and freely made available… yet they're not! It does seem that the person writing instructions knows the kit INTIMATELY and forget that we don't and use broad sweeping statements such as, “join the deck to hull with epoxy glue.” Grrrrr!

Some instructions are just guidelines and are not designed to help the modeller build the model in any way, well why not include both, ie. Guidelines AND build instructions?!?! It's also obvious that some instructions are written by someone that has never built the kit… possibly no kit ever!  We have moved on in time, expectations and technology but some of the manufactures have stayed in the 1970! Some of the worst offenders just seem to photocopy something / anything and fling them box and send it out……. “Well we stated,” Some modelling experience required.””… naaa, that's not good enough these days!
By far, the most popular topics on this site are Build threads..... nearly tripple the vistor rate than any other subject

I don’t want to ‘name and shame’ or a ‘Scratch versus Kit’ debate here but it would be interesting to quote some of the worst phrases eg.
“cut all the windows out with a sharp craft knife.” ….. there are 50 windows to be cut out!!!
or
“Install the motor and prop shaft and ensure the two are perfectly aligned.”
or
Stage 1. ‘Fit the main and quarter deck, braces and beams.’
Stage 2. ‘Before fitting the decks, you may wish to fit a propulsion motor…..’


BUT, having said all that, what are the best examples of instruction, plans, diagrams you've worked with?
   O0

Rant over… nurse? My pills please!  :D

"It was a dark and stormy night......"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_was_a_dark_and_stormy_night
Logged
"This is my firm opinion, but what do I know?!" -  Visit the Mayhem FaceBook Groups!  &  Giant Models

SteamboatPhil

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,762
  • Location: Dieppe, France
Re: "It was a dark and stormy night......"
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2008, 01:20:37 pm »

Arh, now I brought the Moonbeam yacht kit from Dave Metcalf (well he convinced me at the Midlands Model Boat show 2 years ago, saying things like "even a straight runner like you can do this" !!!!) As the kit wasn't in full production at that time he didn't take my money (nice chap) but sent me all the building instructions and loads of pics (on a disk) of the prototype he had built. Money soon changed hands, huge box duly arrived (and I do mean huge). Updated instructions and pics, as he had found a couple of hic-ups. Well so far during the build no problems at all (he did give me few pointers as well when I saw him). Still early days, and really its the first major kit I have ever built (normally own design and build etc etc), I will be making a few changes, but a recomended kit for sailing types, no sleepless nights (yet) mind you wait until I try and get Mrs Steamboat to sew the sails  >>:-(
Logged
Steamed up all the time

hama

  • Guest
Re: "It was a dark and stormy night......"
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2008, 01:32:32 pm »

Hi Martin!
Today is a good day. There was a knock on the door this morning and there was the mailman with a box from england! Model Slipways FSB Tenby. OK, I haven't started this one yet, but having read through the instructions I can say that they are far better than those following the Billings Smit London kit. With this small and relatively cheap kit I would perhaps expected not so good instructions. So, hurray to them so far! On the other hand it is perhaps even more important with good instructions when you sell a kit that is intended for the not so skilled builder. To me it seems like Model Slipway is a responsible kit supplier. How about their large kits, would love to try them some day.
Cheers.
Hama.
Logged

Bee

  • Guest
Re: "It was a dark and stormy night......"
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2008, 01:33:06 pm »

Must agree with all you say Martin. Sometimes the designer is just very very bad with words but they should recognise their limitations and get someone else to help. Trouble is they will be desparate by that time to get some revenue, and asuage the backlog of eager customers.
It's not just model kits. Car workshop manuals are like that. Stating the bleedin' obvious and leave out the details you really need. However these manuals are often written by academic types with no mechanical nouce who start by copying the last manual and making a few changes. Even worse, on another forum we have just been discussing how some people actually do need a manual to change a puncture to say "Undo the 5 nuts holding the roadwheel ANTICLOCKWISE" and the situation is so bad it might have to become part of the driving test.

Good instructions? I once met someone who actually followed the Meccano instructions to the letter! Anyone else not just look at the picture?
Logged

MCAT

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 414
  • Location: FARNBOROUGH HAMPSHIRE
Re: "It was a dark and stormy night......"
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2008, 01:34:13 pm »

MY last kit was just like you describe,  instructions very unclear and assumed you are are either an expert or a mine reader.

they were laid out as though botched together way after the prototype was finished and whoever wrote them had forgoten
the little tweaks required between cutting out the part an fixing to the model.

also the pictures supplied were of the same craft but a differant version so you could not relate it to your build :IE pic's shows two rubbing straits only one in the kit and on the plans, also when placing deck fittings pictures show a completely differant variation of your build also this kit had parts missing or said supplied with kit, when you enquire they say differant we don't supply that , well they did I took it to Warwick and showed them.

there were other problems as well but enough I think. But I did manage to build her and am pleased with it, but fear this level
of care would and has put others of there kits shame as they do have a good range which seems to have the same problems
with there instructions on many of them I am told with discussions I have had with others , and I did not mention any name until others said was it a ====== kit.
other kit have had smaller problems  in fairness the are written by some one who is doing this for a living and has built  many
dozons of kits.  could we build one and then write the instructions two weeks later.  No but then its not our job.
Logged

DickyD

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9,423
  • www.srcmbc.org.uk
  • Location: Southampton UK
    • SRCMBC
Re: "It was a dark and stormy night......"
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2008, 02:03:57 pm »

Best instructions and drawings were with my Robbe Scheultze.

The worst instructions and sketches were with my Caldercraft Milford Star.

For example, the full size drawing is not to scale and a lot of items have been left off it to make it clearer. Excuse me ?

I could go on but lifes to short.  >>:-(
Logged
Richard Solent Radio Controlled Model Boat Club http://www.srcmbc.org.uk

Bryan Young

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6,883
  • Location: Whitley Bay
Re: "It was a dark and stormy night......"
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2008, 05:45:23 pm »

Many, many moons ago I was thoroughly castigated and almost threatened with disembowelling for daring to write that most kits are not quite as good as they purport to be. I also mentioned that building a kit is building someone elses model, which is why I prefer "scratch"....plus the fact that the world is my oyster and therefore not reliant on the offerings of "others". Kits do have a place, but with a few exceptions I would like to consider kits as sort of "starter units" leading the modeller into making his / her own, and not relying on badly produced "instructions". Ho-hum. BY.
Logged
Notes from a simple seaman

Shipmate60

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5,800
  • You bark - I will bite!!!
  • Location: Fareham
Re: "It was a dark and stormy night......"
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2008, 05:55:21 pm »

Still banging the same drum Bryan.
Makes me feel I am really home!!

Bob
Logged
Officially a GOG.

ronkh

  • Guest
Re: "It was a dark and stormy night......"
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2008, 07:20:38 pm »

Many, many moons ago I was thoroughly castigated and almost threatened with disembowelling for daring to write that most kits are not quite as good as they purport to be. I also mentioned that building a kit is building someone elses model, which is why I prefer "scratch"....plus the fact that the world is my oyster and therefore not reliant on the offerings of "others". Kits do have a place, but with a few exceptions I would like to consider kits as sort of "starter units" leading the modeller into making his / her own, and not relying on badly produced "instructions". Ho-hum. BY.
So to you all model makers who buy kits are rank amateurs. You did not say so but the implication is there.
Building a kit is not "building someone elses model". It is building "our" model.
As Martin said, the instructions are usually crap and us "starters" have to then use our (dare I say this word) skills in getting the kit/boat/model correct. Usually via a lot of research.
Do you mean to say that all kits are only to be considered good enough as "starter" kits, apart from your select few? Would you also say that for those of us who take joy and pride in the finished result, with many hours work, should not show them as you would consider them to be inferior to scratch built models?
The ones on here who buy tug kits. "Starters"? Learners?
A lot of people cannot afford to buy all the necessary tools and equipment with which to make scratch models. A lot of people do not have the skills to scratch build but wish to make a model as a very pleasant pass-time. Mainly with stunning results and by using "skill".
Aren't scratch builders copying plans, usually made by professionals, of full sized boats? Surely a true scratch builder would draw their own, original plans? (No doubt you will say you do).
Yes, instructions can be crap, but once we get, what is to us, an extremely satisfying result that looks as true to the real thing as is humanly possible, that is model building at its best. A result that gets compliments, that looks good, that is our own work regardless of it being a kit after working out the instructions and improving on them. As I have done with all my "kits" plus with research.
Model boating is, surely, about enjoying oneself, taking satisfaction in our hobby, and not to read someone putting us down because we can "only" put kits together.
Or am I wrong?
Ho-ruddy-hum!
Logged

Bryan Young

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6,883
  • Location: Whitley Bay
Re: "It was a dark and stormy night......"
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2008, 07:26:12 pm »

Still banging the same drum Bryan.
Makes me feel I am really home!!

Bob
Bob. Not really the same old drum. I would like to see the kit manufacturers lift their game and supply what the buyers think they are paying for. Not too much to ask,is it?
Logged
Notes from a simple seaman

DickyD

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9,423
  • www.srcmbc.org.uk
  • Location: Southampton UK
    • SRCMBC
Re: "It was a dark and stormy night......"
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2008, 07:33:34 pm »

Model boating is, surely, about enjoying oneself, taking satisfaction in our hobby, and not to read someone putting us down because we can "only" put kits together.
Or am I wrong?
Ho-ruddy-hum!
Take no notice Ron, Brian is always banging on like this, he just likes to wind people up. O0
Logged
Richard Solent Radio Controlled Model Boat Club http://www.srcmbc.org.uk

craftysod

  • Guest
Re: "It was a dark and stormy night......"
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2008, 07:43:12 pm »

Agree to everybodies comments on here,not all kits are ready made ,parts have to be made and from what plans i have seen i would not dream of building scratch built yet,i can appreciate the older members of this forum went through there apprentiships,kits were not availiable,had to scratch build,they have the time/skills and possibly have all the tools availiable.
But to get to martins point if we need some guidance or like me new [glue hull to deck] what with blu tack,we need them to be more precise.
Toys back in pram

mark
Logged

Colin Bishop

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12,171
  • Location: SW Surrey, UK
Re: "It was a dark and stormy night......"
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2008, 07:50:42 pm »

In the hope of getting this thread back on track....

I think it is very true that some kit manufacturers (but certainly not all) pay insufficient attention to the paperwork side of their products. Otherwise quality models are let down by inadequate plans and/or instructions.

It may be that the people responsible for putting the physical side together are not quite so proficient at producing the documentation but, as previously pointed out, they are probably not the best ones to do it anyway. A competent independent person would almost certainly do a better job as they will not be so intimately involved with the product and will be less prone to making assumptions about the intended builder's level of knowledge. They are also likely to be more consistent in producing the quality of the instructions so that you don't get too much detail on one area while another is skipped over in a perfunctory manner. But, in order to do this you do need a final version of the kit to work with and, as has again been stated, at this point the manufacturer may be getting desperate to get the thing to market to recoup their investment. Commercial reality intrudes as ever, but I do agree that opportunities for correcting things subsequently are not always followed through.

As far as plans are concerned I agree wholeheartedly that the builder really does need accurate ones as these make the process so much easier. However, at least one manufacturer to my knowledge deliberately does not provide accurate full scale plans for fear they will be ripped off and reproduced for sale on the market, Ebay etc, just as may occur with the hulls they provide. Having said that, other manufacturers do provide proper, accurate plans and instructions and more power to their elbow. The best also produce general booklets on modelling techniques, painting tips etc., which can be applied to any of the models in their range and which, when well done, can be really useful to the builder.

This thread is NOT about whether to build kit or scratch but what a purchaser of a kit is entitled to expect when parting with his hard earned shekels.

Colin
Logged

Bryan Young

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6,883
  • Location: Whitley Bay
Re: "It was a dark and stormy night......"
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2008, 07:54:56 pm »

Many, many moons ago I was thoroughly castigated and almost threatened with disembowelling for daring to write that most kits are not quite as good as they purport to be. I also mentioned that building a kit is building someone elses model, which is why I prefer "scratch"....plus the fact that the world is my oyster and therefore not reliant on the offerings of "others". Kits do have a place, but with a few exceptions I would like to consider kits as sort of "starter units" leading the modeller into making his / her own, and not relying on badly produced "instructions". Ho-hum. BY.
So to you all model makers who buy kits are rank amateurs. You did not say so but the implication is there.
Building a kit is not "building someone elses model". It is building "our" model.
As Martin said, the instructions are usually crap and us "starters" have to then use our (dare I say this word) skills in getting the kit/boat/model correct. Usually via a lot of research.
Do you mean to say that all kits are only to be considered good enough as "starter" kits, apart from your select few? Would you also say that for those of us who take joy and pride in the finished result, with many hours work, should not show them as you would consider them to be inferior to scratch built models?
The ones on here who buy tug kits. "Starters"? Learners?
A lot of people cannot afford to buy all the necessary tools and equipment with which to make scratch models. A lot of people do not have the skills to scratch build but wish to make a model as a very pleasant pass-time. Mainly with stunning results and by using "skill".
Aren't scratch builders copying plans, usually made by professionals, of full sized boats? Surely a true scratch builder would draw their own, original plans? (No doubt you will say you do).
Yes, instructions can be crap, but once we get, what is to us, an extremely satisfying result that looks as true to the real thing as is humanly possible, that is model building at its best. A result that gets compliments, that looks good, that is our own work regardless of it being a kit after working out the instructions and improving on them. As I have done with all my "kits" plus with research.
Model boating is, surely, about enjoying oneself, taking satisfaction in our hobby, and not to read someone putting us down because we can "only" put kits together.
Or am I wrong?
Ho-ruddy-hum!
Sorry, sorry and sorry again. I am not, honestly, against kits as such. Nor am I wanting to "put anyone down". The fact remains that people pay out a lot of money for what in some cases turns out to be not worth the outlay. Some are better than others. Read back through some of the postings and you will see an awful lot of dissatisfaction re. bits that don't fit, bits wrongly identified, twisted hulls....in fact an awful lot of disasters and a lot of wasted money. In my own club (Tynemouth), just as an example, we have a member who has been struggling for (literally) years to straighten up a poorly made and warped Battleship hull that cost him an arm and a leg...from a mainstream manufacturer who doesn't want to know. "Fit for purpose" does not seem to apply to some manufacturers who can publish lovely adverts in the mags, but the bit you get is not quite the same. Buyer beware, I guess.
But my main theme re. kit versus scratch is the choice of model. If you want 20 "Bugsier" tugs on your water then go ahead, but if you want a bit of diversity then scratch building is the only other option. It really is not all that different....you just have to make your own kit. A bit like F1 cars that buy in bits from anyone who is capable of supplying them. Cheers. BY.
Logged
Notes from a simple seaman

craftysod

  • Guest
Re: "It was a dark and stormy night......"
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2008, 08:13:32 pm »

Sorry colin
didnt mean to offend you or you skills think i just wandered off track

mark
Logged

Colin Bishop

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12,171
  • Location: SW Surrey, UK
Re: "It was a dark and stormy night......"
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2008, 08:19:30 pm »

Not offended. Basically I'm a scratchbuilder but I think people should get what they pay for. Same point as in Bryan's last post.

Colin
Logged

SteamboatPhil

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,762
  • Location: Dieppe, France
Re: "It was a dark and stormy night......"
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2008, 08:35:07 pm »

I must have been lucky with my Moonbeam kit then (must be due to all the years Dave drew for MB), and like Colin (and many others) I prefer to scratch build, I just fell in love with the boat. I don't really think I will be building someone else's model as I will put putting my own things into it (most likely mistakes and c*ck ups)  :(
Oh and welcome back Bob  O0
Logged
Steamed up all the time

dreadnought72

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,892
  • Wood butcher with ten thumbs
  • Location: Airdrie, Scotland
Re: "It was a dark and stormy night......"
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2008, 08:51:43 pm »



...what are the best examples of instruction, plans, diagrams you've worked with?
 

Well, they're not very boat-like, but the best instructions I've seen are ones with Ikea flat-packs. They've put a lot of thought and time into demonstrating how the articles should go together, no matter what your language - or, indeed, if you have a language - and that, coupled with the fact that I've never had "missing parts" (thanks MFI) or "dodgy components" (thanks Argos) makes assembly a dream.

There's a lot that kit manufacturers could learn from in that.

Andy, making up my "instruction leaflet" as the Dreadnought progresses...well, really just making it up.
Logged
Enjoying every minute sailing W9465 Mertensia

craftysod

  • Guest
Re: "It was a dark and stormy night......"
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2008, 08:56:44 pm »

this reminds me of people who make diagrams /instructions
Logged

John W E

  • I see no ships !!
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,813
  • Location: South shields
Re: "It was a dark and stormy night......"
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2008, 09:32:47 pm »

Hi all

Here is food for thought - the other side of the coin.   Have you ever tried writing the instructions to explain how to build a kit or a scratchbuild model.....I thought it was relatively easy myself, until I started writing the postings I did on the Master build.   The biggest surprise I had were the personal messages I received with regard to both the Swordsman and the Cervia builds.

We all tend to take it for granted that the person/s building the kit/following the instructions/familiarity with the building materials - has/have the same level of knowledge as the writer.   Sometimes they do not have the same level of knowledge and it is not because they are slow to learn or incapable of grasping certain things; it is just that they maybe see things in a different light/different way to some of us.

So the next time you are busy - just imagine having to write it all out just so that someone with a 'limited knowledge' can understand.

I know one particular Manufacturer of electrical goods has spent hours on a website carefully putting words together and diagrams to make it virtually foolproof - so things do not go wrong - they still go wrong and he still ends up with a lengthy telephone call - he has to explain the ins and outs.......

Aye
john e
bluebird

Logged
Knowledge begins with respect
But fools hate wisdom and discipline

Colin Bishop

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12,171
  • Location: SW Surrey, UK
Re: "It was a dark and stormy night......"
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2008, 09:42:04 pm »

Quite right John, it's not easy. You have to put yourself in the mind of the reader. I had to write reports of various types most of my career and the best technique I evolved was to write the thing as well as  I could and then give it to one of my staff to criticise. It always paid off as they came up with something I'd missed or not explained properly.

Colin
Logged

Eric65

  • Guest
Re: "It was a dark and stormy night......"
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2008, 10:01:41 pm »

Many of the problems with destructions of course, come from the fact that they were origionally written in a different language, Japanese, Chinese, Italian etc.

They may have been quite satisfactory in their mother language, but much will be lost in translation!
Many translators truly have no idea what it is they are translating, and make no real atempt to make them even remotly comprehensable.

More work should be done in that area, me thinks.

Poorly made components are a totally different thing though, some are new and not had enough design work done....others are at the other side of the spectrum and too OLD, suffering from excessive flash and so on.
Logged

toesupwa

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 938
  • USA'd ex Brit
  • Location: Grand Junction, Colorado, USA
Re: "It was a dark and stormy night......"
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2008, 10:08:30 pm »

I agree that most plans and kits (Boats, Cars and aircraft!) could do with being better at relaying the "A sticks to B" to the builder of the model. I suppose thats why i mostly scratch build from my own plans as then, if i make a construction (or design) mistake, i only have myself to blame.

Just as a suggestion, when a kit or plan is built from and there is a build thread on this site, the builder is at liberty to give a star * rating for the quality of intructions and the quality of the plans.
At least that way, any prospective builder of that particular model knows (from the * rating) what to expect.
Logged

The long Build

  • Guest
Re: "It was a dark and stormy night......"
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2008, 10:08:41 pm »

I have always used instructions as a guide, a source of reference when all else fails, to return to in the hope they put you back on to the right track. O0
Logged

catengineman

  • Guest
Re: "It was a dark and stormy night......"
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2008, 10:48:59 pm »

I constructed my Tito Neri (a KIT) I had the plans and they were helpfull though I altered the internals quite a lot to fit various things in (some failed and got changed again) I don't think that kit construction is much different from scratch the end is a model to which the constructor is happy with.

I also constructed a Parrat tug again altering the internals to what was required

both these vessels are from the Graupner stable and I found the plans a good reference point.

R,
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.103 seconds with 21 queries.