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Author Topic: Springer Plans  (Read 14734 times)

Martin [Admin]

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Springer Plans
« on: June 23, 2009, 09:41:05 AM »

I can never find the plans when I needs them.... I can now!



PLANS:
 http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/Common/Plans.doc
 http://nwrcsm.freeyellow.com/springer.PDF

RULES:
18" x 8" inch hull size and floor shape as per plan.

Single Motor up to 550 size eg. 540/550 / Speed 600. ANY gear / belt / magnetic drive you like!
( Gear and pully drive allowed. )

Power - Up to 7.2 volts

Single Rudder only.

Must have a superstructure of some sort.



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Martin [Admin]

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Re: Springer Plans
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2009, 09:42:13 AM »


HI guys

I'm a friend of bobs i was the one who drew up the files for him as we wanted to find some printable plans to print and cut :)

so please check over our drawings and let us know if any problems, and also feel free to use as needed.

plans as follows:

A4 page of overview of plan with dimensions etc.
http://innovative-rc.co.uk/products/springer-tug/Hull-drawing.PDF

A4 tiled print plan, 15 pages in A4, with cut marks, so cut it out stick it together to get a 1:1 full size plan.
http://innovative-rc.co.uk/products/springer-tug/Tile-Hull-Panels-springer-tug-A4.pdf

A1 print size plan (for any one with nice big printer)
http://innovative-rc.co.uk/products/springer-tug/Hull-Panels.PDF

DXF File verion of plan for any one with cad or router/lazer cutter. (in zip file as does not like posting dxf files here)
http://innovative-rc.co.uk/products/springer-tug/Hull-Panels-DXF.zip


 i have now updated the planes, same links as above added some more dimentions etc hope they help you get yours made and built.

any you think should be added just showt ill get it added for others to use.

thanks, robert





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chrise

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Re: Springer Plans
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2009, 10:09:23 AM »

I am assuming that these plans are meant to be used by beginners as well as experts.

The plan bulkheads on the A4 overview are sized for 6mm hull sides I think but it does not say that - or at least it almost certainly does say it somewhere but I haven't seen it.  :-))

I am not sure what, if anything, you have allowed for the thickness of the bottom sheet.

Do you think rounding to the nearest mm (as in the handdrawn plan above) might be a good idea - or sticking to the imperial measurments of the original design. I have done a reasonable amount of woodwork over the years but marking out & then cutting exactly 88.72mm etc. sounds difficult to me.

For absolute beginners a link about waterproofing (& strengthening) the joints - particularily the one between the bow "bulkhead" & bottom sheet - might also be a good idea.

Chris
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Re: Springer Plans
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2009, 11:10:09 AM »

Excellent points Chrise.  Anybody care to add some simple basic to help the beginner?
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Martin [Admin]

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Re: Springer Plans
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2009, 12:36:45 PM »


I am assuming that these plans are meant to be used by beginners as well as experts.


Hi Chris,
I'm no expert but lets see if I can help you.


The plan bulkheads on the A4 overview are sized for 6mm hull sides I think but it does not say that - or at least it almost
certainly does say it somewhere but I haven't seen it.  :-))

Front, back and sides (and internal structure) can be any thickness and made from anything.
Most of the Springers on here are made from scrap / off cuts of wood or you can go down to your local timber yard / DIY shop
and purchase new. Some of the Springers on here are built from Balsa, MDF, ply, perspex, aluminium, even steel!


I am not sure what, if anything, you have allowed for the thickness of the bottom sheet.

Bottom sheet again can be anything, Balsa sheets (grain from side to side), ply, 2 layers of thin ply,
my latest Springer has a hardwood bottom. Plan the gluing very carefully and have a couple of dry runs for practice first.


Do you think rounding to the nearest mm (as in the hand drawn plan above) might be a good idea - or sticking to the imperial measurements of the original design. I have done a reasonable amount of woodwork over the years but marking out & then cutting exactly 88.72mm etc. sounds difficult to me.

Most important dimensions are L x W x D - 18"x8"x4 3/4"  - 457mm x 203mm x 124mm (46cm x 20cm x 12cm as-near-as-damit!)

For absolute beginners a link about waterproofing (& strengthening) the joints - particularly the one between the bow "bulkhead" & bottom sheet - might also be a good idea.

Do a search hear on mayhem for water proofing or sealing wood, there's loads of stuff.
One thing I would say is make the bottom sheet to side joint strong, I'm using moulded wooden strip to strengthen mine.

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chrise

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Re: Springer Plans
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2009, 01:56:48 PM »

I am not a beginner as I think that you have concluded & I do have experience of teaching people how to read plans. My comments are about how I think the plans might lead new users into cutting the wrong size materials (the front & rear bulkheads from the dimensions given), inappropriate materials such as where there is no indication of a suitable skin material, or where the plans appear so complicated that a beginner would be totally put off such as dimensions that are to one hundredth of a millimetre. Specifically my comments about your responses are in red:

The plan bulkheads on the A4 overview are sized for 6mm hull sides I think but it does not say that - or at least it almost
certainly does say it somewhere but I haven't seen it.  :-))
Front, back and sides (and internal structure) can be any thickness and made from anything.
Most of the Springers on here are made from scrap / off cuts of wood or you can go down to your local timber yard / DIY shop
and purchase new. Some of the Springers on here are built from Balsa, MDF, ply, perspex, aluminium, even steel!

I realize that the hull can be made from anything but the dimensions for the front & rear bulkhead (191.2mm) on the plan are only right if 6mm sides are used. I just think that the 6mm assumption should be clear from the plan.

I am not sure what, if anything, you have allowed for the thickness of the bottom sheet.
Bottom sheet again can be anything, Balsa sheets (grain from side to side), ply, 2 layers of thin ply,
my latest Springer has a hardwood bottom. Plan the gluing very carefully and have a couple of dry runs for practice first.

Again agreed but having allowed for 6mm sides in the bulkhead dimensions it appears that there is no guidance about the bottom thickness & the allowances that have to be made


Do you think rounding to the nearest mm (as in the hand drawn plan above) might be a good idea - or sticking to the imperial measurements of the original design. I have done a reasonable amount of woodwork over the years but marking out & then cutting exactly 88.72mm etc. sounds difficult to me.
Most important dimensions are L x W x D - 18"x8"x4 3/4"  - 457mm x 203mm x 124mm (46cm x 20cm x 12cm as-near-as-damit!)
Agreed again but there is a currently active topic from a young enthusiast who doubts his, or his family ability, to build a hull. Plans that talk about one onehundredth of a millimetre do little to convince the beginner that they will succeed. It is not the overall dimensions that I am suggesting be simplified so much as the hull profile measurments. None of us can build to this level of precision anyway -  or at least I most certainly cannot.


For absolute beginners a link about waterproofing (& strengthening) the joints - particularly the one between the bow "bulkhead" & bottom sheet - might also be a good idea.
Do a search hear on mayhem for water proofing or sealing wood, there's loads of stuff.
One thing I would say is make the bottom sheet to side joint strong, I'm using moulded wooden strip to strengthen mine.

Great - a few pictures should help avoid lots of beginner mistakes.

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Martin [Admin]

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Re: Springer Plans
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2009, 02:26:22 PM »


1. Start from the external dimensions, subtract the thickness of the martial you are using and Bob's-you-uncle.
    ie. width = 460mm width of wood 5mm  -  2 x 5mm = 10mm  -  Width of Bow and Transom = 450mm

2. Don't worry about the bottom thickness, Use the profile in the plans and stick the bottom on the outside.

3. The Dimensions are fixed but no one is scrutinize you Springer at the lake, this isn't F1!!   :-))

4. My build here:   http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/My_models/Springer/index.htm  


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chrise

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Re: Springer Plans
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2009, 02:46:15 PM »

I don't think that we are understanding each other. I am not trying to be awkward & I agree with most of your answers but you asked for comments on the measurments & I still believe my comments to be valid if the plans are to be altered.

You gave this link to the one page overview plan & my comments refer to this plan:
http://innovative-rc.co.uk/products/springer-tug/Hull-drawing.PDF

If you look at the plan the beam of the model is given as 203.2mm whilst the bulkheads - both front & back - are shown as 191.2mm wide. These dimensions will obviously only work if the sides are 6mm (191.2+(2 sides at 6mm)12=203.2) but it doesn't say that or indeed give any guidance as to how to work out the bulkhead width. If using anything other than 6mm obviously the bulkhead dimensions given are simply wrong.

I also questioned whether the odd 0.2mm means anything. I would much prefer to tell a beginner, as a couple of examples, that the hull was 203mm wide rather than 203.2mm and that the side view 4th hull depth measurment from the stern was 156mm rather than the 155.83mm that the plan states. Automatic measurement conversion calculators can give results that are less than optimally useful. I totally agree that this is not F1 so why complicate the plan with measurments that are realistically unachievable, off putting, & which might give the impression that a hundredth of a millimetre might actuially matter?

It is easy for those of us who have modelled for years to forget how confusing this can all be to a beginner. My comments are simply about making the plans easier to use for those, who unlike us, don't have years of experience to fall back on.

Chris
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Martin [Admin]

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Re: Springer Plans
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2009, 03:00:34 PM »


Dunno, they are not my plans! I used:  http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/Common/Plans.doc

 Don't get hung up on the plans, start by cutting out some cardboard templates, it will all soon become clear, honest!  :-))

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chrise

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Re: Springer Plans
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2009, 03:17:06 PM »


Dunno, they are not my plans! I used:  http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/Common/Plans.doc  :-))



Yes it appears that my comments are directed at Roberts plans which you have provided a picture of, & link to, above.

Might I suggest that the links & pictures of Roberts plans are more confusing than helpful.

Chris
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Bill D203

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Re: Springer Plans
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2009, 03:52:29 PM »

Now Then boys! I have not as yet anyone take a tape mesure to my Gas Springer. Haven help me if they do. Your missing the point here and getting bog down is not what it's about. HAVING A FUN BOAT IS! So what if its 0.05 mm oversize Come on just have a go and have some fun.
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Re: Springer Plans
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2009, 04:41:06 PM »


Might I suggest that the links & pictures of Roberts plans are more confusing than helpful.


There have been hundreds of Springer's built to both the imperial and metric plans and there hasnt been this problem before..   >:-o

As long as the hull ends up as 18" x 8" (457mm x 203mm ) or somewhere near those figures, then it doesnt matter. the original plans were in Inches and the above plans are just a direct conversion to mm's.. thats where you get the 0.2mm's etc.

Its easy enough to subtract the thickness of the sides to end up with a dimension for any bulkheads... even for a beginner.
eg: 6mm sides means reduce the width of the bulkheads by 12mm, 12mm sides means reduce the width of the bulkheads by 24mm

By the way, even the TBW (Toes Boat Werks) would fall foul of the rules if you were to measure to the 0.0002 of a mm.... and I'm currently on my 10th Springer  :P
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Bunkerbarge

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Re: Springer Plans
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2009, 04:56:05 PM »

....and we haven't even talked about the difference in thickness of acrylic paint as opposed to enamel. O0 {-)
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Martin [Admin]

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Re: Springer Plans
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2009, 06:14:43 PM »

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portside II

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Re: Springer Plans
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2009, 06:20:44 PM »

I can see where Chris is regarding the plans , and i can see where Martin is also . Yes the plans may be confusing when you build your springer and it comes out over sized ,especialy if you have cut the bottom and top in advance .
Its up to the builder to ajust the bulkhead dimentions to compensate for the thickness of the sides .
Oh and dont be bringing a square , never mind a tape measure to my springers  :embarrassed: .
And finaly HAVE FUN
daz
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chrise

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Re: Springer Plans
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2009, 12:26:37 PM »

I am really sorry if this has got heavy - I most certainly did not intend that it would do so & all my comments are about the plans in "reply "1 rather than the perfectly good plans from Martin. I think we were at cross purposes for the first few posts.

Before you condemn me PLEASE open the link which I have copied below from "reply 1" & look at the dimensions (width) of the "front" and "rear" hull parts - both 191.2mm wide. Are you really sure that beginners, who may never have looked at a plan before, will be able to work out that they are sized for 6mm sides & would be wrong for any other side thickness? 6mm sides are not specified anywhere on the plan & I have seen models built on this forum with sides from substantial bits of timber (1"?) that would make the top & bottom skins far too narrow - about 38mm too narrow - if cut to plan size, & the finished model over 38mm wider than the Springer spec if the top & bottom sheets were cut to fit rather than from the plan sizes. 38mm is a lot more than the difference in the thickness of paint I think. Given comments that I have received elsewhere "this is not a Springer".

http://innovative-rc.co.uk/products/springer-tug/Hull-drawing.PDF

My only concern was that this is a boat that would appeal to beginners & we should keep it simple for them. Nathanbint's comments are, in my experience, fairly common. "hi yeah but me or my dad haven't got a clue to be honest lol". If all the other beginners who visit this site are OK at reading drawings & checking them out before building then I am obviously wrong. In my experience confusion leads to abandonment & failure.

Whilst Martins plans are clear & simple the plans in reply 1 from Robert are not. I still think the measurments to 1/100 millimetre on the innovative-rc plans linked above are unnecessarily daunting.

I now see from the replies that I am in a minority & will say no more although I do wonder how many of those that replied had actually looked at the plans that I commented on before replying rather than just Martins plans which are a the top of the page.

Chris 
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chingdevil

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Re: Springer Plans
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2009, 06:33:01 PM »

I have followed this thread and looked at the pdf plans, like Chris E I am not sure a beginner could build a springer from them.

First off let me say they are a very good start at springer plans, and I am sure with a small amount of alteration they will be an asset to anyone building a springer for the first time, but to me they lack basic dimensions.
There are no material thickness dimensions or any notes to say what the material should be, either for the side, ends or the bottom. There is no indication that there should be a deduction from the front and back parts to compensate for the side material.
There are not enough measuring points to get the curve the correct shape, and all the dimensions need to be rounded up, as an engineer I can work steel to that kind of tolerance, but wood, nah!! If you look at the A4 plans Martin posted you can see that to get the curve there are measurements every 25mm
I am not sure you would need to say how to attach the materials together, I would have thought that was obvious


Brian
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Arrow5

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Re: Springer Plans
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2009, 06:44:28 PM »

What was wrong with the original American plans ? {:-{
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Martin [Admin]

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Re: Springer Plans
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2009, 10:00:54 AM »


In a word, nothing!

Original plans can be found here: http://nwrcsm.freeyellow.com/springer.PDF
Word A4 template plan & UK rules here:  http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/Common/Plans.doc


...... that's 17 words and two hyperlinks!  %)
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Re: Springer Plans
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2009, 07:03:03 PM »

Thanks Toes, problem(s) solved O0 .....?
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Martin [Admin]

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Re: Springer Plans
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2009, 06:56:51 AM »


Topic split - Re: Springer plans - Imperial v Metric! - http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=18329.0


BTW: Another build blog:
http://www.johnsmodelmadness.co.uk/buildingsmallpsher.htm
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