Model Boat Mayhem - Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length.
Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Springer plans - Imperial v Metric!  (Read 16232 times)

toesupwa

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 938
  • USA'd ex Brit
  • Location: Back in California, USA
Springer plans - Imperial v Metric!
« on: June 25, 2009, 02:35:14 AM »

What was wrong with the original American plans ? {:-{

They were in 'imperial' Arrow.. Europe (and GB) cant understand 'imperial' now, it has to be metrical..

I see where the confusion lies in the drawings mentioned at the start of this thread, and when they appeared on the main Springer thread, i voiced my opinion that they were likely to cause confusion, being a direct conversion from imperial to metric and including the 0.2 of a mm.

Even though there seems to be some confusion on the plans, it should be mentioned that there is the RC Groups thread and these (MBM) threads relating to Springers. Also there are a number of us here (and on RCG) that are more than willing to help the beginner if / when they get stuck.

Perhaps it would be better to put ALL of the Springer drawings in one place, the PNW ones, the ones Martin mentioned above and also the PDF's that were drawn by the late Ken Reilly of the San Fransisco Club (at the start of the RC Groups thread)... This means the beginner has ALL of the drawings at their disposal.

That's unless someone wants to draw up the 'ultimate' Springer plans, in both Imperial AND Metric... and fully detailed.. with instructions.  %)
Logged

andygh

  • Guest
Re: Springer plans - Imperial v Metric!
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2009, 04:00:23 AM »

GB can't understand imperial? Are you sure?  :o
Logged

Arrow5

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3,647
  • Location: Scottish Highlands
Re: Springer plans - Imperial v Metric!
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2009, 09:04:19 AM »

Toes being ironic methinks. WHAT WAS/IS WRONG WITH THE ORIGINAL PLANS . The question remains unanswered. Publish the Ken Reilly originals which were very graphic and easily understood by beginners and others.   If it isnt fixable , dont break it !
Logged
..well can you land on this?

Peter Fitness

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6,366
  • Location: Wyrallah, near Lismore NSW Australia
Re: Springer plans - Imperial v Metric!
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2009, 12:50:14 AM »

They were in 'imperial' Arrow.. Europe (and GB) cant understand 'imperial' now, it has to be metrical..

That's not my experience in the UK, Toes, car speedos are still calibrated in miles per hour, and all road signs show distances in miles. When I was in England last year, our hire car was a brand new, 2008 model, Peugeot 207, a European car, but the speedo's main reading was in mph.

Peter.
Logged
I'm the boss in our house, my wife said I could be.

portside II

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,489
  • tugs at rest
  • Location: Goole.East Riding of Yorkshire.England On the banks of the river Ouse
    • goole model boat club indi site
Re: Springer plans - Imperial v Metric!
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2009, 12:55:46 AM »

They were in 'imperial' Arrow.. Europe (and GB) cant understand 'imperial' now, it has to be metrical..

That's not my experience in the UK, Toes, car speedos are still calibrated in miles per hour, and all road signs show distances in miles. When I was in England last year, our hire car was a brand new, 2008 model, Peugeot 207, a European car, but the speedo's main reading was in mph.

Peter.
hi toes we still have our feet and inches ,pounds and ounces and all the rest of our quirky means of measuring and weighing , its just that the beuracrats in Brussells want us to get rid and use the metric rule .
Me been a sixties child was brought up to use both , but still prefer the inch scale  :-)) .
daz
Logged
I like to build my boats to play with, not to just look pretty,so they dont !

toesupwa

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 938
  • USA'd ex Brit
  • Location: Back in California, USA
Re: Springer plans - Imperial v Metric!
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2009, 02:28:26 AM »

They were in 'imperial' Arrow.. Europe (and GB) cant understand 'imperial' now, it has to be metrical..

That's not my experience in the UK

hi toes we still have our feet and inches

Me been a sixties child was brought up to use both , but still prefer the inch scale  :-)) .


I know both having been bought up on feet and inches and 'converted' to the metric system when i started as an Architect.

Seeing as this thread was aimed at the beginner, who we assume would be either a youngster or under 25 (?) years old then they would have been taught in metric.. and wouldnt understand imperial measurement, inches and parts of an inch etc..
Logged

Peter Fitness

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6,366
  • Location: Wyrallah, near Lismore NSW Australia
Re: Springer plans - Imperial v Metric!
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2009, 03:14:43 AM »

I can't speak for other parts of the world, but here in Australia, where we've had the metric system since 1966, most young people would still understand imperial. There are plenty of free conversion software downloads available for anyone who did have a problem.

Peter.
Logged
I'm the boss in our house, my wife said I could be.

Martin (Admin)

  • Administrator
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15,828
  • Location: Peterborough, UK
    • Model Boat Mayhem
Re: Springer plans - Imperial v Metric!
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2009, 06:50:41 AM »

Topic split.
Logged
"This is my firm opinion, but what do I know?!"    -   Mayhem FaceBook Group!

tigertiger

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5,820
  • Location: Kunming, city of eternal springtime, SW China.
Re: Springer plans - Imperial v Metric!
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2009, 07:33:52 AM »

There are only two issues that I can see for springer builders living in metric lands.

1/ Some funny numbers in conversion
e.g. length 457.2mm (18")

2/ Not being able to buy the exact thicknesses of plywood. Which will have marginal effects on dimensions, that may result in boats inadvertently exceeding class rules (by a very small amount).
Logged
The only stupid question is the one I didn't ask

andyn

  • Guest
Re: Springer plans - Imperial v Metric!
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2009, 12:10:03 PM »

I'm 17 and hate metric measurements...
Logged

chrise

  • Guest
Re: Springer plans - Imperial v Metric!
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2009, 12:30:44 PM »

Funny. I am 56 & I prefer metric - it is so much easier to divide etc. In the end it comes down to choice.

Having said that the Springer is an imperial model & I don't think would be the same size if it had been designed metric. Possibly 450x200mm rather than 18x8ins. Simply "converting" dimensions gives a plan that would never have been designed that way.

Personally, & particularily thinking of beginners, I would be much happier to see a Springer plan that was "nearly" the same size as an imperial Springer but metric sensible rather than a "converted plan" . They would be two different plans and two slightly different models however.

As was said elsewhere this is not F1 & what is a few mm between friends. I wonder how far that tolerance goes?

Chris
Logged

dougal99

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,634
  • Huntingdon, Cambs, England
  • Location: Huntingdon, England
Re: Springer plans - Imperial v Metric!
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2009, 02:01:18 PM »

My Kids, 2 in their thirties, don't do feet an inches, but understand miles better than kilometres. My brother in law (60s) likes kilometres as you cover the ground quicker  {:-{


The UK has laws requiring food to be sold by Metric weight and road signs to be in imperial - no wonder the ranger in the grand canyon was totally confused when I explained it to him after he gave me directions in metric.

My staff in Cyprus used a double sided tape  :-))

Doug
Logged
Don't Assume Check

chrise

  • Guest
Re: Springer plans - Imperial v Metric!
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2009, 02:06:45 PM »

......... and we buy petrol in litres & then discuss how many miles per gallon we are getting.

In a way these everyday things don't matter as it is all about a common understanding but science & engineering require precision & they have decided which way to go.
Logged

Peter Fitness

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6,366
  • Location: Wyrallah, near Lismore NSW Australia
Re: Springer plans - Imperial v Metric!
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2009, 12:46:01 AM »

As long as the good old US of A remains on imperial measurements, we are always going to have the problem. Like Chris E, I much prefer metric, as calculations are much simpler, and I don't even own an imperial ruler any more. Having said that, if I was to be asked how tall I was I'd reply, 5' 10", not the metric equivalent. Perhaps it's an age thing  O0

All road sign distances here are in kilometres, car speedos are calibrated in kilometres, we buy fuel in litres, and calculate fuel economy in litres per 100 km. Metric weights and measures are used exclusively in shops etc, but real estate agents still often advertise farm land in acres, not hectares  %%.

I'm sure if a Springer was 0.00274 mm oversize, no one would worry  :-) However, there may be a god of measurement who could possibly sent a lightning bolt down and blast the offending vessel out of the water  :o {-) {-) Are you prepared to take the chance  O0

Peter.

Logged
I'm the boss in our house, my wife said I could be.

tigertiger

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5,820
  • Location: Kunming, city of eternal springtime, SW China.
Re: Springer plans - Imperial v Metric!
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2009, 02:28:59 AM »

If I am in UK I relate to temperatures in degrees Farenheight. Possibly because I know 50 is chilly, and 75 is a nice summer day for Uk, 80 is hot, 90 is heatwave and 100 is exceptional.

In China I have only ever used degrees centigrade/Celsius. I know in Shanghai (very humid) less than 20 is damp and cold, 20 is pleasant, over 30 is sticky, over 35 is unpleasant, over 40 is unbearable.

The dumb thing is I cannot equate/figure degrees C in UK, as I have no direct reference. :(( and vise versa
Go figure  :-X
Logged
The only stupid question is the one I didn't ask

Peter Fitness

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6,366
  • Location: Wyrallah, near Lismore NSW Australia
Re: Springer plans - Imperial v Metric!
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2009, 02:51:50 AM »

I've almost forgotten what Fahrenheit temperatures mean now, it's been so long since we used them here.

TT, over 40 Celsius is HOT wherever you are, although outback Australia regularly posts temperatures in that range in Summer, but it's a very dry heat.

Peter.
Logged
I'm the boss in our house, my wife said I could be.

derekwarner_decoy

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6,779
  • Location: Wollongong Australia
Re: Springer plans - Imperial v Metric!
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2009, 02:56:08 AM »

As Peter has noted .........Australia is generally hard metric..........but when attending a meeting   {-) O0 {-) to discuss a tolerance clearance for a pin used with a GE 250 spherical bearing.....  I suggested  >>:-( that 250 mm is about 10" in diameter so why not apply 0.0005" [1/2 a thou] clearance per inch...or 5 thou total clearance.......

Some of the younger engineers looked at me as if I had been drinking  ok2  prior to the meeting & raced for their calculators %%....after some discussion ...0.0127 mm was noted as an acceptable clearance  O0 ....

Interestingly....the 'principal engineer' who accepted the proposal was a man of similar age & also grew up with the imperial system.....in INDIA........ Derek
Logged
Derek Warner

Honorary Secretary [Retired]
Illawarra Live Steamers Co-op
Australia
www.ils.org.au

Peter Fitness

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6,366
  • Location: Wyrallah, near Lismore NSW Australia
Re: Springer plans - Imperial v Metric!
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2009, 03:03:49 AM »

One thing we haven't been able to work out accurately, either in metric or imperial, is the answer to the question "How long is a piece of string?"  {-) {-)

The closest I can get is to say "Twice the distance from the middle to one end"  %% ;D and that applies in either system  %)

Peter.
Logged
I'm the boss in our house, my wife said I could be.

chrise

  • Guest
Re: Springer plans - Imperial v Metric!
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2009, 10:44:58 AM »

The thing that always strikes me as oddest is wood. I still go to buy 2x4 or 4x2 etc timber but what they sell you is metric. Even worse the metric size is before planing so the reality is even smaller than the numbers suggest. I buy 8x4 sheets of ply/plasterboard/chipboard etc but what arrives it is metric which again is always a bit smaller. I know that when we needed some new fence panels some nasty person has decided that my old 6ft panel needed replacing with the 1800mm panel that they happily sold me when I asked for a 6ft fence panel but which was too small for the hole. My neighbour wanted a length of fencing which he carefully calculated was 20 panels (6ft) but when he erected them the fence was shorter than he expected (1800mm panels) by about 2 metres.

The relevance of this is that since most of what we buy is metric it does make some sense to use it metric as well which would help avoid these miscalculations. Since ply etc is a world market product the USA should have this problem as well.

I know that this is not relevant to Springers but I do find it requires a bit of though to calculate how long to cut a piece of wood where I am told it needs to be say 6 inches but the I have to deduct 2 sides of say 8mm to get the actual cut length.

Yes I am 6ft3ins, my car does 30mpg & I know 70 degrees F is about as warm as I want to work in but I prefer to measure & design in metric. If they would simply stop giving F measures I am sure that I would learn the C measures very quickly but as long as they give both I only listen to the F.

The thing that annoys me most is the absolutely stupid measurements that television has started using. Things are now measured in buses & football pitches!!!! Anybody who knows anything about either will know they are both of very variable size & mean completely different things to people in different countries! Dumbing down or what. It makes designing in units of "the length of a piece of string" look quite rigorous!  %)

There is a UK TV programme called "grumpy old men" - which I quite enjoy - where a group of men about my age give their amusing thought on the stupidities of life. Funny thing is I agree with them most of the time. I wonder why.........
Logged

Colin Bishop

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,739
  • Location: SW Surrey, UK
Re: Springer plans - Imperial v Metric!
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2009, 11:18:36 AM »

The underlying problem is that much of the UK's physical infrastructure, buildings, fences and what have you was built to the Imperial system. So, short of tearing everything down and starting again, we simply have to live with the two systems in parallel for the foreseeable future even if it means expressing Imperial in Metric with all the odd measurements that produces.

Colin
Logged

steamboatmodel

  • Guest
Re: Springer plans - Imperial v Metric!
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2009, 09:23:11 PM »

Canada is supposed to be metric, but when I buy plumbing fixtures and pipe it is in imperial, plywood is sold in 4x8 ft sheets but thickness is in metric, go figure.
Regards,
Gerald.
PS most of my measuring equipment has both or is digital and switchable, when I was working as a CNC programmer/machinist you would get drawings to either system or sometimes both on the same drawing.
Logged

Bill D203

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,974
  • not long now!!
  • Location: Sunny Stevenage
Re: Springer plans - Imperial v Metric!
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2009, 08:58:42 AM »

I once met a grave digger in Cornwall. I ask him how he was going to get on when we went metric! Simple he said. We are going to have 10" to the foot!!!!!!!!! Well it works for him.  :-)) :-))
Logged
Roll On Mayday. Im off for a pint.   How Much!!!   WHEN do you need it!     No dear!    Yes dear??   Wot Now???  soon to be EX Chairman SMBC

chrise

  • Guest
Re: Springer plans - Imperial v Metric!
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2009, 02:34:58 PM »

I once met a grave digger in Cornwall. I ask him how he was going to get on when we went metric! Simple he said. We are going to have 10" to the foot!!!!!!!!! Well it works for him.  :-)) :-))

Absolutely love it - what a classic.  :-) :-)) %)
Logged

Dreadstar

  • Guest
Re: Springer plans - Imperial v Metric!
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2009, 11:52:51 PM »

For myself,as an apprentice,I always struggled with Metric,especially when it came to reading mic's,(metric ones). I could never get it right,even now I look at a metric mic with loathing. If a piece of bar came to me in mm,I'd mic it with an Imperial mic,just so that i knew what size it really was. I despise the metric system to be honest with you. The only time I ever use the metric side of my rule,is if I'm making some very small models.By the way,I'm not yet 49. :-))
Logged

Martin (Admin)

  • Administrator
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15,828
  • Location: Peterborough, UK
    • Model Boat Mayhem
Re: Springer plans - Imperial v Metric!
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2009, 12:22:38 PM »

Logged
"This is my firm opinion, but what do I know?!"    -   Mayhem FaceBook Group!
Pages: [1]   Go Up