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[Shamrock]

Hello all,
I`m here because I`m finally going to turn my dream into a reality. I want to build a scale model (preferably steam but probly electric) of  a boat my great grandfather once owned and used on Lake Windermere. Some links to show you the one I`m talking about.
 

http://s629.photobucket.com/albums/uu13/NonconformistZG/?action=view&current=shamrock2.jpg
 
 http://www.steamboat.org.uk/register/html/sham0534.htm
 
http://www.heritage-now.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=50
 
 
I`m a total beginner with regard to model boats and model steam engines and currently trawling through the web in search of relevant  material. I`m looking for books Cd Roms and help from forums such as this one.  I have some RC knowledge with helicopters and will soon be attempting to master the art of slope soaring. I still have two RC helis and two Tx`s.
 
I`m keen to learn about the actual building of the craft mentioned above, so any links or relevant book titles or CD Roms. would be much appreciated. I know this project may take some months or years to complete.and a lot of research will be needed and I`m prepared for that. But I can`t do it on my own, so please help me out a bit, just to get started.
 
I`ve come across a few books etc, that are out there but from the brief descriptions, can`t figure out if  they are the right books. I take it I have to have a copy of the original plans of the full scale, but once I have them (in progress) how do I scale down to a 6 to 8 foot long model drawing? Is there a computer program that does that?
 
I`ll leave it there and await a response before asking further questions.
Cheers
Luke

[Malcolm Reade]

Hi Shamrock

We need to talk...

My own great uncle was Colonel Ridehalgh of Fell Foot Park, Newby Bridge, at the bottom end of the lake, now a National Trust property.  He commissioned two steam yachts in the 1800's, both built on the Clyde, firstly the 'Fairy Queen', and later 'Britannia'.  They were both sailed down the coast to Ulverston before being railed overland to Windermere.

Colonel Ridehalgh (of the Border Regiment) was Commodore of the Royal Windermere Yacht Club around six times as they have informed me.

I too have similar aspirations to yours regarding building a model - of the Fairy Queen, and rather ambitiously want to scratch build the steam engine for her too.

Regards,

Malc

www.reademodels.com

[boatmadman]

Welcome aboard Shamrock.

A visit to the Windermere steamboat museum would have been a good starting point, except, its undergoing refurbishmnet at the moment, http://www.steamboats.org.uk/

Have you tried the National Maritime Museum? They hold plans for thousands of boats, it may or may not have Shamrock. http://www.nmm.ac.uk/search-results/?search_word=ship+plans&x=0&y=0

As far as actually setting to and building the boat, I suggest you spend some time looking at the build threads on here, there is a wealth of experience and knowledge available. Ask any questions and you will always get an answer, the answers might even be helpful occasionally

As for scaling the plans, once you have a set of plans you could take them to a printshop and ask them to scale them to the size you need. If you do this, just check that all the dimensions are scaled, not just the length!

Are you anywhere near a model boat club? Its not a bad idea to join one if you are, again members are usually keen to help.

Ian

[Shamrock]

Hi Malcolm,
I read your reply last night and was surprised and excited that someone else with a family history of Windermere lake steamers could just pop up out of nowhere with similar aspirations. I notice you live in Cheshire? I`m in Wrexham N.Wales, so we have similar interests and in easy reach of each other. This is great. I would like to meet up sometime and see if we can work together over the coming months/years and make this thing happen.

I`ve sent an e-mail to the museum today asking about boat plans and mentioned you. It would be good if, on completion of our models, we took them up to Windermere for the maiden voyage.   I have no doubt that the local and possibly national press would be interested in being there. I think the museum would make an ideal setting for this. I know It`s a long way off yet, but I know this project is going to be costly and I`m just trying to think of ways to help with funding. I`m not that well off and would probly have to sell my windsurfer, RC heli and equipment along with a few other things just to get started. Does anyone know if I could get a grant for this sort of thing? Wishful thinking, but worth a try.

Anyway Malc, PM me to exchange contact details and lets make it happen.

[Shamrock]

@Martin,
Thanks for the edit,     I tried all sorts to do that. How`s it done? Do I need an embed code from the Photobucket web site or do I just attach a pic from my computer? Anyway thanks for that.

[gondolier88]

Hi Shamrock,

What a wonderful project, I know Roger Mallinson well and he loves to see models of his boat- someone has done it before- a beautiful true scale model at I think 1:12, giving it an LOA of 45inches.

I will be up on windermere at the end of the week for the annual steamboat rally so can get some pics for you if you'd like me to?

It really should be steam powered if your going to do a true model- there are many ways you can do this so keep asking for advice.

The museum would be a fantastic place to start- but shamrock isn't in there she is in a large boathouse on the lake- I can give you details but obviously I won't make them public on here.

I also have some old 'Funnel's, the SBA's quarterly journal from 30 years ago when Roger, along with his late twin brother, restored Shamrock to her former glory.

I am well placed to help should you need it- I work on SY Gondola on Coniston and regularly go up.

As for national press, I think you'd be lucky, however Roger is well known locally and a model of Shamrock would be well recieved.

Really you should post your intentions on the 'steam' section- if you PM Martin the forum owner he will move this thread for you- this will mean a lot more help and advice from the right corner will come your way- also trawling through the posts in the steam section, and others too, will give you the heads up on what is required to undertake such a project.

Greg

[gondolier88]

Hi Malcolm,

Just to let you know, if you can get in touch with the Lakeland Arts Trust about gaining access to the museum and they say yes, Britannia's teak and stained glass rooflight is used as the rooflight to the foyer of the museum, you probably knew this but thought i'd tell you incase you didn't know.

Greg

[Shamrock]

@ Ian,
Thanks for the welcome Ian. It feels good to be here. Compared to other RC helicopter related and other forums, there is an obvious warm and friendly atmosphere here and I`m proud to be a part of it. I`ve e-mailed the museum letting them know about my project and waiting to hear back from them regarding the Shamrock drawings. I`ve had a brief look at the NMM web site but will wait to hear back from the museum or Roger Mallinson or the SBA before making enquiries.  I`ve also had a look at nearby (on line) clubs and think that the Runcorn club

http://www.runcornmodelboats.co.uk/index.html

I`ve also found a good link to Ron`s Boats.

http://www.ronsboats.co.uk/

He`s built something similar to the Shamrock and would be well worth my while talking to him. I`ve sent him an e-mail today and awaiting a reply.

As far as searching through the forum build threads, I did that before my initial post and always found it difficult searching forums for specific info. But I`ll keep at it.

[gondolier88]

Ah, I see your going down the museum route for getting the plans- you'll be lucky- the museum shut it's shop side of the business about 4 years ago- someone somewhere may know if there are any drawings still available- however there were never any drawings in the museum of Shamrock- the nearest being the drawing of Swallow, Shamrocks siter ship, but she is 6 inches shorter so wont have the same lines.

Greg

[Shamrock]

Hi Greg,
Nice to hear from you. Now that you mention it, I`m getting some memories returning to me of when Roger made enquiries to my dad about old photos before he started the restoration. Is it possible that the drawings are lost? Do you know who built the model you mentioned? I have also recently become aware of the annual steamboat rally and would very much like to attend. Joining Roger on the Shamrock would be the highlight of the last several years for me. But that would be too much to ask at such short notice I guess. I`ve had a look at the youtube vids of the 07 and 08 rallies and would love the opportunity to ride along. But failing that, your kind offer of taking some pictures of the Shamrock would be much appreciated. Even if I can`t ride along with anybody, I may venture up to meet some people and have a chat about my new project. I`ll PM you with my contact details and next time you see Roger, please forward them on.

The Gondola looks fantastic, Greg. You`re a very lucky man to have a job on such a fine looking yacht.

Cheers
Luke

[Shamrock]

@Greg and @Malc

I`ve sent you both a PM but after checking my PM out box, there is nothing there. Please let me know if you received.

[barriew]

@Greg and @Malc

I`ve sent you both a PM but after checking my PM out box, there is nothing there. Please let me know if you received.

Shamrock

FYI, outgoing messages only appear in the outbox if you tick the box to leave a copy.

Barrie

[Malcolm Reade]

Hi Malcolm,

Just to let you know, if you can get in touch with the Lakeland Arts Trust about gaining access to the museum and they say yes, Britannia's teak and stained glass rooflight is used as the rooflight to the foyer of the museum, you probably knew this but thought I'd tell you In case you didn't know.

Greg

Hi Greg

I had an inkling that there may be bits of Britannia knocking about at Windermere, but I had no specific information.  Many thanks for your post.

I do talk to the National Trust at Fell Foot Park occasionally.  Sometimes they can be more forthcoming than others...I have offered to lend them some of Colonel Ridehalgh's family silver to put on display, but their staff seem to move about a lot, and it's difficult to establish a rapore with anybody?

I also have a standing invitation to The Royal Windermere Yacht Club, but my blue blazer and captain's hat with scrambled egg on always seem to be at the dry cleaners...

Regards,

Malc

[Malcolm Reade]

Hi Malcolm,
I read your reply last night and was surprised and excited that someone else with a family history of Windermere lake steamers could just pop up out of nowhere with similar aspirations. I notice you live in Cheshire? I`m in Wrexham N.Wales, so we have similar interests and in easy reach of each other. This is great. I would like to meet up sometime and see if we can work together over the coming months/years and make this thing happen.

I`ve sent an e-mail to the museum today asking about boat plans and mentioned you. It would be good if, on completion of our models, we took them up to Windermere for the maiden voyage.   I have no doubt that the local and possibly national press would be interested in being there. I think the museum would make an ideal setting for this. I know It`s a long way off yet, but I know this project is going to be costly and I`m just trying to think of ways to help with funding. I`m not that well off and would probly have to sell my windsurfer, RC heli and equipment along with a few other things just to get started. Does anyone know if I could get a grant for this sort of thing? Wishful thinking, but worth a try.

Anyway Malc, PM me to exchange contact details and lets make it happen.

Hi Shamrock

PM sent...

Regards,

Malc

[gondolier88]

Hi Luke,

I've PM'd you.

I don't think the drawings will be lost- they were prints after all so they should be on CD-ROM or a hard-drive somewhere- you'll just have to find them- i'll see what I can do.

Thanks for the compliment- we work hard to keep her looking that fine- very lucky to work on her.

Malc,

We don't really have much to do with Fell Foot on Gondola so I can't help really, however as I will be up at the end of the week the guy i'm staying with, that i'm building a model steam launch for, is well up on local history- i'll ask him if he knows any details about Britannia- his grandad owned a huge swathe of lakeshore with a victorian house - selling parcels of it off during the supertax years until he was left with nothing, quite sad really.

Greg

[Malcolm Reade]

Hi Greg

Thanks for the information.  I have a feeling that we're in danger of hijacking Luke's thread here?

I will start another at some point and upload pictures of Britannia, Fairy Queen, and of the Colonel himself.

The photographs have a lot of interest for those keen on Windermere steamers...

Malc

[Shamrock]

Shamrock

FYI, outgoing messages only appear in the outbox if you tick the box to leave a copy.

Barrie

Box ticked. Thanks for that Barrie. 

[Shamrock]

PM`s received thanks.

I don`t watch TV much these days and missed the start of the Fred Dibnah series on BBC2. I wasn`t even aware, until I recently read Roger Mallinson`s blog, that during  Fred`s last trip to the lakes before he died, he spent a day on the Shamrock.

I`m now waiting for Fred Dibnah`s last series DVD to arrive. I believe It`s episode 3 where Roger appears alongside Fred.

[Shamrock]

Right, getting a bit carried away there, hijacking my own thread, so back on topic.

I`ve decided to build as close to the real thing as possible. That means plank on frame and a steam engine.

Questions.

#1. What tools am I likely to be needing? I have a small garage where I plan to do the build, but not much room for bench saws and the like, but having spent the last several months (recently laid off) working for a supplier of quality oak doors/floors/skirting etc , I got to know some guys who have a wood machining work shop and could ask them to do the stuff I can`t do by hand. But if I can do everything by my own hand, what tools would be needed??

#2. What wood should I use? I could probly get some oak offcuts from my previous employer for next to nothing. But should different woods be used for different parts of the build??


#3. Would I have to build some kind of jig or several jigs to hold the frame etc.???

#4 Assuming I can get the wood for nothing and the fact that I want a working steam model of about 6 to 8 feet in length, can anyone give me a ball park figure of how much this project is likely to cost?  I`ll probly end up buying the fittings etc. rather than trying to make them myself.

I may be able to find this info somewhere on this forum but if someone here has built something similar, I just want a rough idea. Plus I plan to add to this thread over the coming months/years , with pictures and updates of my project and on completion, hopefully others will be able to refer to this thread for help with their own build.

So please keep the hints and tips and advice coming. 

Cheers
Luke

[boatmadman]

Luke,

Some project you are taking on! Are you intending to buy or build your own steam plant?

Tools: jigsaw, razor plane, razor saws, screwdrivers, stanley knife, modelling knife and blades, tape rule, a good steel rule, dividers, clamps, clamps and more clamps, masking tape (the best universal clamp you can get!), glue, various grades of sandpaper, sanding block, patience, determination, beer, a bin for the bits you will break along the way, a brush and shovel for cleaning up the mess you will make, a VERY deep pocket.----enough for starters?

Wood: Personally, I would stay away from oak, its extremely hard and difficult to work well without really sharp, and I mean scary sharp tools. I have used cedar for several buils, it works well, bends nicely, finishes well, and you can sometimes pick it up quite cheap, especially as you have contacts in a wood shop. Another alternative is lime, but that is very light in colour, but again works well.

You will need a building board, something good and rigid. I use 1/2" board with 4x2 timbers screwed to it to make it rigid. this is essential as it will hold the model stable as you build.

Cost? Thats a tough one, best not to keep a track of costs, cos if swmbo finds out you are sunk! The steam plant could be getting on towards £1000 or more, depending on what you want:

http://www.mainsteam.co.uk/aboutus.htm

and another

 http://www.westbourne-models.com/westbourne-models-com-the-home-of-model-boats-1-0.html

there are more, but these give an indication of what there is. One thing, go for a copper boiler, they will last longer than a brass boiler. There are also test regulations you will need to know about at a later stage.

Hope this helps.

Ian

[Shamrock]

Ian,

Yes, a heck of a project. The more I look into it, the more daunting the task appears to be. But I`m determined to see it through and glad I`ve found the ideal place for advice. The willingness and offers of help from Mayhem users is quite something. I feel as though I`ve already made some new friends in such a short space of time. Thanks to all who have shown their interest in this project so far and I look forward to meeting some of you in the not too distant future.

Steam plant. Well everything about this build is totally new to me and the workings of a steam engine is no exception. My main aim is to build a model of the Shamrock and initially, what is under the hood , so to speak , does not really matter. The easier the build the better. That said though, after reading some of the responses and PM`s and looking at some pictures of other models, I WOULD like to try and keep the model as close to the real thing as possible. If I had the money, I would pay a skilled model steam engine builder to make a copy of the one Roger has made for the Shamrock. But I don`t have that kind of money. In fact I will be struggling to scrape up the dosh to pay for a new pre built engine that`s close to Rogers design. (even if one exists) If I can find a second hand one that fits the model, looks pretty close and at a price I can afford, then that will do. This has got me asking another question.  I`ve stated that I want my model to be around  6 to 8 feet long. So what size engine should I be considering? Do the engine sizes go by the power needed to push the model through the water and speed required? or do I just get the size and type that`s closest to the real thing?  Or do I find an engine and boiler before starting and build around them ?I know this probly sounds a daft question to some of you and sorry in advance for that.   

When you say a copper boiler last longer, how much longer? And what is it in a boiler that deteriorates?

Thanks for the links and other tips. A VERY deep pocket could be a problem. Anyone have a deep pocket they don`t want any more? 

[gondolier88]

Hi Shamrock,

Regarding steamplant-

Shamrock has a locomotive style boiler- these are not made for marine modelling so you would have to get it made specially- this alone could be round £1500-£2000.
The Engine- Shamrock's engine was a design that Roger adapted while in the navy, he used the cylinder block off a Duplex steam pump- and your right no-one does make an engine like it in model circles.

I have designed a launch myself that is 8ft in length based on shamrock's lines- I built the bow section and the cabin so far,  I don't know if it'll get finished though, a bit impractical and i've learned a hell of a lot about steam since then- I was 16 when I drew the plans having spent an evening on Shamrock with my first training engineer on Gondola.

The woods I used were;

Hull- Oak keel, steam-bent oak ribs, oak knees and seat frames. Cedar strip planking brass nailed to the ribs. Teak/mahogany decks.
Cabin- Teak window frames, mahogany roof timbers (used the back of a guitar soundbox to make a really interesting curved roof) and pine panelling inside.

Regarding the steam plant I was going to use a 2 1/2" Gauge locomotive boiler design and shorten the barrel and make it side firing (this is how Roger made his boiler for Shamrock, it is the original boiler from River Irt, one of the loco's on the Ravenglass And Eskdale railway)- at this size you could gas fire for ease of use- or if you were clever enough you could even coal fire- no different to a model steam loco's grate size- just put a pressure controlled bypass valve on a permanent water feed pump and away you go!

Regarding the engine for the boiler- I would PM Bogstandard- his engineering is first class and has much experience with model steam- he is always busy but you may be able to come to some arrangement, failing that a Stuart Turner twin launch would be your first choice of engine- right size, right power, contemporary looks. You do know that originally Shamrock was fitted with a Sissons triple expansion steam engine- the rolls royce of small steam plants- i'm sure i've seen a 1:12 model of one of these, it wouldn't be cheap but imagine one of those in your launch!!

Regarding the engine size- see the thread in tugs and towing section on 'Evanos/Mont Caume'- I explained to this gentleman how to calculate power from any given model steam engine.
The power is slightly irrelevant though as Shamrock's lines are just so efficient- anything with a cylinder size of 14-18mm Sq. would be adequate.

Greg

Ps- about Fred Dibnah's series- he had engine problems with his tractor so Roger sorted them for him and then Fred went down to the boathouse the next day to have trip on Shamrock,
unfortunately fate being what it is, if he hadn't had engine trouble he would have had a trip on SY Gondola on the day Roger fettled the cylinders on the tractor- we were gutted as this would have been the best publicity for the boat it's had in years, hey ho!

[boatmadman]

Luke,

So, Shamrock had a triple expansion, well, Stuart Turner do a triple expansion engine as a set of castings to be machined. This would be the proper job

Ian

[boatmadman]

Luke,

Your q about the boiler, some manufacturers are offering brass boilers with their steam plant, now, I am given to understand that in time the brass can become brittle (someone will correct me if I am wrong), whereas copper isnt affected like this,.

Time scales? Well, either would probably see your lifetime out with correct use and maintenance, but I can see this project of yours becoming a family heirloom and as such i feel that you would be well advised to go the copper route.

Greg mentioned Bogstandard for machine work, I would go along with that, he is a master at metal murdering, see this:   http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=18830.0

Ian

[Shamrock]

Ian,
That link to Bogstandard`s thread is one of the most, if not THE most interesting and best threads I`ve come across on internet forums. The pics are crystal clear as are the descriptions he gives. Short and to the point. He`s obviously highly skilled and to take the time to share his skills and techniques with forum members  is just... well ,   what a guy.

I would`nt know where to start with regards to dropping him a PM. So far, the vibes I`m getting are to go for copper boiler. If it will last longer but do the same job, then , fine. Copper it is. And yes, I will want to keep this model in my family as long as I can. I may even consider approaching the museum to see if I can put it on display there when I`m not using it or become too old to use it.
Excuse my numptyness but is a boiler the same thing as a steam plant? I don`t suppose it really matters what the boiler looks like because it`ll be covered won`t it?
Engine. After reading bogsy`s thread, I`m not sure about an ST. But if bogsy is the man to fix any problems, I`m happy to go with the ST xxx if it`s a close match to the original Sissons.

Oh man. I don`t have a clue what I`m talking about even though I`ve been on this forum most of the day. My head is starting to fry a bit. 

I`m going to go down the steam route as opposed to electric. That much is decided.  Now the way I see it, I have a choice of getting someone to copy and build Rogers design or copy the original Sissons design, or, get something like the ST xxx which closely resembles the Sissons, or, slap in any old thing as long as it works and fits. As I`ve said somewhere before, I`m not very well off and price is a big issue. So if I can get prices for all these options I can then work out how long it will take to get the cash sorted out. If It`s going to cost £2000 just for the engine then so be it. But I want to look at the cheaper options first. I would never consider spending this sort of money on a model, but as It`s the Shamrock and I`m an Ashley, It`s just something I have to do.

Right, I need a rest for a bit. My eyes are starting to go now as well.

Greg,Ian, thanks again for your input. I`ve learnt so much today.

Cheers
Luke