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[Vintage]

DG - As far as I'm aware the "Supermarine Special" was identical to the "Supermarine" aside from the points that I mentioned in my previous post so I think, unless they changed the spec. over the years, the one that Colin saw at Warwick was perhaps incorrectly labeled.

Here are shots of a "Supermarine Double Special" alongside a "Supermarine Special" to give an idea of their relative sizes 

Both motors have the above names stamped onto their paxolin end plates.

Mark.

 

[dodgy geezer]

Ok.

I do not have a Special, because I do not have single-pole reverse.

The Supermarine Double has an identical framework (and armature?) to the Supermarine, but larger field coils. I have the Supermarine, not the Supermarine Double.

Things are clearer now! But I do not have any name stamping, either on brass or paxolin. And it looks as if your motors have brass 'bearing covers' at each end - mine are a brown plastic. It would have been interesting to see details of the Double's brushgear....

[Vintage]

Vintage - yes, I would be very interested in your pictures, and also any old catalogue data (scans...?) you may have. I would like to get a larger collection of Taycols, but have no comprehensive list of the motors and their charachteristics. I believe there was an 'Asteroid', and a 'Comet', which has a permanent magnet...

There was indeed a "Comet" & also a "Star" - they were both permanent magnet motors & quite early, I've attached a couple of images - the "Comet" I have is a geared version with a 4/1 ratio gearbox.

The "Asteroid" was similar to the other field wound motors - "Torpedo", "Meteor", "Target" & "Standard" - all just varying in size & some having reversing levers.

I'll dig out some printed info. over the next few days for you 

Mark.

P.S. Apologies to Martin - can this thread be moved away from "Sales"?

P.P.S. DG - will post details of the brush gear tomorrow 

[Colin Bishop]

Yes, the one at Warwick does seem to have been mis labelled.

I'm sure I saw a large advert illustrating the whole range recently while going through some old issues of Model Boats but IO can't lay my hands on it at the moment!

Colin

[kiwimodeller]

I have some of my old collection listed in an earlier posting in Sales and the photos show some others in the range. I will dig out what pamphlets etc I have in the next day or two. The large series of motors began with the "Marine" which was still 6volt and had conventional style brushes which came in from the sides of the commutator. The "Supermarine" was the first to have brushes from the end on to a circular commutator as did all the later motors and was marked "6 to 12 Volts". The "Supermarine Special" was very simil;ar looking but produced more power so presumably had more windings? All had six terminals with link plates  between terminals marked "A" and "F" on each side of the endplate. These need to be removed to set the motor up to be reversable. The "Supermarine Double Special" had larger field windings and only three terminals from memory. My motors have the voltage on the terminal endplate and "Taycol Marine", "Type EM2", "Regd Design" and "Made in England" on the drive end plate The Supermarine is "Type EM3". I have managed to reverse all the large series motors with the bridge rectifier but have not tried to do the small series motors. Hope this helps, Ian.

[dodgy geezer]

... The "Supermarine" was the first to have brushes from the end on to a circular commutator as did all the later motors and was marked "6 to 12 Volts". The "Supermarine Special" was very similar looking but produced more power so presumably had more windings? ....

Very interesting, Kiwi - so the 'side-mounted' brushes indicate the 'Marine'? I haven't seen one of those. What seems to have happened is that Taycol designed a basic framework for the two-bobbin field-wound motors, and then developed it by increasing the bobbin sizes?

Do you have a reference for the increased power of the Supermarine Special? Vintage quotes a catalogue as saying:

From an old catalogue it states:-  "The Supermarine Special has the same electrical & other characteristics & dimensions as the Supermarine. The essential difference is in the modified terminal arrangement by which radio or remote control may be operated through a single pole change-over switch or relay, instead of the double-pole".

So this reference suggests the two motors are the same as regards power. Unless, of course there was a later development .....

[Martin (Admin)]

Although this was in the sales thread, I've moved it here as there is interesting information that other may want to see.

 Martin

[kiwimodeller]

I have to go in to the shed attic and find the old pamphlet and some adds I copied. It could of course be the onset of "Oldtimers Disease" and it might be the Double add that I was thinking of that had more power advertised. I do recall that I definitely ran the "Supermarine" with the extra terminals on the same rectifier but I must have used all four terminals on the rectifier as the fourth one has had a wire soldered to it at some time but I do not use it with the "Double". And yes the the Marine was the only large series motor I have seen with conventional style side mount brushes. I think it was David Wiggins that told me they did not make may before going on to develope the Supermarine so perhaps by then 6 volt was going out of fashion. I will hunt out the correspondence I had with him too. The other unconventional feature of Taycols was the use of copper mesh brushes rather than carbon ones and this is one of the reasons they need every type of suppression there is available. Cheers, Ian.

[Vintage]

And it looks as if your motors have brass 'bearing covers' at each end - mine are a brown plastic. It would have been interesting to see details of the Double's brushgear....

DG - I've tried to take a shot of the brushgear together with the same on a Taycol "Standard" & attached them as promised.

The motors do have brass bearing covers although my "Standard" has plastic covers - maybe they changed them during production??

I have a few ads & photocopies of various Taycol info. - I'll try scanning it, is there anything that you're particularly interested in?

Mark.
 

[dodgy geezer]

DG - I've tried to take a shot of the brushgear together with the same on a Taycol "Standard" & attached them as promised.

The motors do have brass bearing covers although my "Standard" has plastic covers - maybe they changed them during production??

I have a few ads & photocopies of various Taycol info. - I'll try scanning it, is there anything that you're particularly interested in?

Mark.
 

Vintage - Thanks - I was really looking for a picture of the 'drum-type' commutator, but Kiwi indicates that this was only on the 'Marine' motor. I have a Standard at the moment. Mind you, the copper mesh brushes on your 'Double' look nearly new!

My Supermarine has plastic oil-covers, quite similar to the Standard. I suspect they were a later development....

What I was hoping to get from any documentation (like most collectors) was:

1 - a list of the full Taycol range
2 - specifications for the motors in the Taycol range
3 - any operating instructions for any of the motors....

but don't go to a vast amount of trouble on my account...

[roycv]

Hi all, Kiwi and I have had this conversation before but the standard motor can come with a blue finish on the edge of the magnetic laminations or a red finish.  I am sure I read many years ago that one was 6 volts and the other 12 volts.  I have both but it is not obvious when you power them up!  Anyone throw any light on this?
I have quite a few Taycols but not the 2 permanent magnet ones any more.  I had them when young but they vanished at some point.

regards to all, Roy

[dodgy geezer]

Hi all, Kiwi and I have had this conversation before but the standard motor can come with a blue finish on the edge of the magnetic laminations or a red finish.  I am sure I read many years ago that one was 6 volts and the other 12 volts.  I have both but it is not obvious when you power them up! ...

There must be some difference? The winding resistance, for instance...?

[Vintage]

I was really looking for a picture of the 'drum-type' commutator, but Kiwi indicates that this was only on the 'Marine' motor.

Hi DG - I don't think I've ever seen one of those so I'd be interested to see as well....

Here are a few scans from an old Taycol brochure that might be of interest, I'll have to post them individually due to size (if I compress them too much you can't read the text).

It's no trouble - happy to help.

Mark.

P.S. If any of these are illegible then I can always send you photocopies.

[Vintage]

& again.

[Vintage]

Wiring diagram.

[Vintage]

Instructions.

[kiwimodeller]

First of all I have to say that I have only really played around with what I call large series motors although I have owned several small series ones and bench run them. I also have more literature on the small than the large but there are big gaps in what I have. I am relatively sure that I am correct about the large series starting with the Marine, I have a copy of Modelmaker add for Veron (Model Aircraft Bornemouth Ltd) which shows Comet and Marine motors and the Marine is listed as "6v 2& 1/2 amps consumption" so I assumed it was 6volt only. Unfortunately it is not dated. All other literature for the large series motors lists the Supermarine, Supermarine Special and Double Special as "6 to 12v Motors". I have never had a motor with blue windings Roy (and I thought it was a small series one you had) so cannot be sure of any differences but Model Maker tests I have test the Star and the Comet series on 4 to 6v and the Torpedo , Meteor, Target and Asteroid on 4 to 12 volts and measured their efficiency. I have a test of the Double Special in Model Maker from Nov 1960 which says " The Taycol Supermarine has been developed extensively from the original 6 volt Marine first reported in these pages in June 1955." The test raves about the torque available on 12v and says that it is capable of shearing couplings. Also suggests running it at 4,000 to 5,000revs loaded as the current draw at maximum torque was 6 amps but rose alarmingly when the motor was loaded to 2,800 rpm. Maximum efficiency was at 6500rpm. In this and other tests and in the makers brochure they actually reccomend lightly oiling the brushes to stop arcing! An earlier add for the Supermarine Special talks about the advantage of the new three terminal connection meaning the motor can easily be reversed by single pole change over switch or a relay. The test talks about separate field coil windings for reverse, wound as pairs with the forward coils but of higher resistance and not meant for continuous running. The original literature also mentions this feature in the smaller series motors and says that the "Meteor and Asteroid have the same power and efficiency as the Torpedo and Target series but the simplified switching arrangement makes them especially suitable for radio control". I do not have the facility to scan these and anyway most are only poor photocopies but if anybody wants copies PM me with an address and I will send them snail mail. Cheers, Ian.

[dodgy geezer]

Wow! This thread has suddenly become the premier site on the web for information about Taycol Motors!

Vintage - I note that the Supermarine wiring diagram shows a motor with 'drum' type commutator. And I have never heard of the requirement to oil the brush-gear - as the document states, this is usually a no-no for most motors. They suggest it will cut sparking - I wonder if it will lower erosion of the commutator face-plates, which do suffer with this motor design....

Thanks, everybody, for sharing these rare bits of data...   

[malcolmfrary]

With the brushes being, literally, metal fuzz bristles, lubing would work to reduce wear.  Just what would happen to the sparking is anybody's guess, but you could probably increase contact pressure.  Never consider lubing carbon brushes.  Ever.

[sweeper]

Re: copper brushes. These were common practice on industrial type machines pre-war.
I was told by an elderly engineer (from that period) that that was how the term "brush" was coined i.e the cross section of the copper looked like a section through a floor brush and swept across the commutator surface.
We had a rotary converter set in my depot yard that supplied H.V. to the railway network, this ran for about eighteen hours per day for many years. I do not recall any problems with the durability of the brush gear even at high current densities (although I never worked on it).
I would find the concept of applying lub oil to the brushes very odd. In my mind, the result would be a commutator with a skin of burnt hydrocarbon deposits and the danger of losing the insulation of the mica between the segments. Hardly the ideal conditions for clean commutation.
Even the use of an "approved" electrical lubricant (e.g. elvolub) would be doubtful.
Or perhaps, being very cynical, was the intention with these motors that they would be regularly maintained with copious amounts of carbon tetrachloride applied to the commutator?
Certainly makes my dc motor theory (and practice) seem to be a missing some vital piece of information.

Regards,
Bill

 

[dodgy geezer]

I would find the concept of applying lub oil to the brushes very odd. In my mind, the result would be a commutator with a skin of burnt hydrocarbon deposits and the danger of losing the insulation of the mica between the segments. Hardly the ideal conditions for clean commutation.

 

The commutator design does not use mica - it has massive brass plates mounter on a paxolin backing disk. The gap between the commutator contact plates is about 1/16" wide and 1/16" deep - quite a lot of deposits could sit in that before they became a problem.

But I agree with you that it seems a strange thing to lube brushes - even though we have the manufacturer's recommendation I would like an electrical wizard's opinion before I started doing it....

[wombat]

We still use copper brushes on some of our variable transformers - they squeal like someone abusing a cat. Anyone who has heard them will undserstand why copper brushes on rotating machines were lubricated.

Carbon brushes have a lot of advantages but do require a bigger contact area than a copper brush for the same current flow.

Wom