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Author Topic: Marten, Howes & Baylis PB4  (Read 28695 times)

MONAHAN STEAM MODELS

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Re: Marten, Howes & Baylis PB4
« Reply #50 on: November 22, 2009, 09:35:08 pm »

We have the boiler set up in Wilhelmina to burn either coal, wood, diesel, propane, or bio-diesel (aka Vegetable oil)  %)
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gondolier88

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Re: Marten, Howes & Baylis PB4
« Reply #51 on: November 22, 2009, 09:57:58 pm »

The Kinetic Steamworks is a great idea, looks like you have a lot of fun with it.

Greg
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MONAHAN STEAM MODELS

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Re: Marten, Howes & Baylis PB4
« Reply #52 on: November 22, 2009, 10:06:35 pm »


Is it this LIFU launch that used the Victoria as the testbed for?

I thought you were building a Kingdon to go in it, or had you already built that- memory is getting worse!!

Greg

Greg, Thanks for the offer on information for boilers. I will have take you up on that offer. :-))

The Victoria launch I built a while back was somewhat of a test bed for the LIFU launch project since the hull of the Victoria was dimensionally close to a LIFU launch but not close enough. After a few years of digging around for information on LIFU launches, I've finally managed to come up with enough info to produce an extremely accurate CAD model of a LIFU launch's hull. We have produced a mold off of this CAD model. You are correct that I was planning on using a kingdon style boiler. We actually have two designs for the LIFU launches. The first design looks similar to the past Victoria test bed project but with the kingdon style boiler and the second design is built like a original LIFU launch with the LIFU horizontal water tube boiler.

Nick
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MONAHAN STEAM MODELS

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Re: Marten, Howes & Baylis PB4
« Reply #53 on: November 22, 2009, 10:15:07 pm »

The Kinetic Steamworks is a great idea, looks like you have a lot of fun with it.

Greg

Thanks, Kinetic Steam works is a lot of fun! We have a great collective of people who makes up the core organization, all with various backgrounds ranging from aerospace engineers to school teachers. I myself, is only one small part of this group. We are all volunteers.   
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gondolier88

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Re: Marten, Howes & Baylis PB4
« Reply #54 on: November 22, 2009, 10:21:04 pm »

Don't mention it- anything to help get proper contemporary model steam boats into production.

I think the two drum boiler would make a great proposition in model sizes, and easy to tool up for production too- two cylinders, four end caps and numerous symetrical u-bend tubes with a casing to wrap it up- you could even offer it for home-building which would cut costs in production and packaging.

I look forward to seeing what the outcome of your thinkings will be....

Don't suppose we can see the LIFU hull CAD profile.... ;D

Greg
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MONAHAN STEAM MODELS

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Re: Marten, Howes & Baylis PB4
« Reply #55 on: November 22, 2009, 10:54:00 pm »

Greg,

I have been on the fence so to speak about the two drum or three drum versions of water tube boilers.  Either design would be good really. I like your idea about the home-building version. My main objective is performance and accuracy to the original design. since water tube boilers can be extremely efficient producers of steam they also need to be kept feed with water due to their minimal water capacities. I've come up with a preliminary design for a device to mechanically sense water levels in boilers but it's still in the early experimental stages. When the water level drops to a certain point this device will open up a valve to allow steam to flow to a scale size duplex pump that is also in the works. If i can get all of this to function 100% reliably, then there will be no need to train mice to serve as engineers aboard our models. ;D Seriously though, it could manage the water level in boilers without the need for electronics. However I'm not sure what the market would be for such a complex system. I'm sure a few would enjoy it, but is that worth going to all the trouble for it?

I don't want to let the CAD model out yet and spoil the surprise. %)

Nick
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kno3

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Re: Marten, Howes & Baylis PB4
« Reply #56 on: November 22, 2009, 11:06:12 pm »

A mechanical system for automatically sensing the water level and turning the feed pump on and off is a great idea. I'm wondering if it has been done before in model size?

P.S. Nick I've sent you an e-mail.
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MONAHAN STEAM MODELS

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Re: Marten, Howes & Baylis PB4
« Reply #57 on: November 22, 2009, 11:19:52 pm »

To my knowledge it hasn't been done. I've searched for such a system but haven't been able to come up with anything. Regardless, I would like to have one myself so I'm just going to build one.

I just got your email and sent you a reply.
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steamboatmodel

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Re: Marten, Howes & Baylis PB4
« Reply #58 on: November 23, 2009, 01:59:51 pm »

Nick,
I read of a design attributed to Mr Yarrow where he had connected a steam pump up to the boiler at the level he wanted the water. When the water level was below this the pump is feed steam and pumps water into the boiler normally, when the water level was up the pump was feed water which slowed the pump down. I have always wanted to try this out and see if it would actually work.
Regards,
Gerald.
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gondolier88

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Re: Marten, Howes & Baylis PB4
« Reply #59 on: November 23, 2009, 05:14:53 pm »

Nick,

Glyn Lancaster-Jones at the traditional boatyard, Port Dinorwic is the guy you need to speak to- he makes most of the two drum types in theSBA, and I think he offers it in kit form too.

His www; www.traditionalboatshop.co.uk.

The three drum is the better performer, thats widely recognised, quicker to steam and more water content, with a better circulation.

However that is NOT to say the two drum is a bad boiler, as you know, it is in itself a very good boiler design, just in model sizes it won't hold much more than about 300ml so would NEED a feed pump as you mention. Have you thought of using commercially available boiler thermistors as sensors- could be easily added to either three or two-drum design and use minimal voltage with dead accurate and reliable temperature controlled electrical output, and they come with standard thread to put into bushes which could be soldered into the end caps no problem.

However, Geralds suggestion is a very good one, with water level above the steam supply to the pump it would be a hydraulic motor and would run really slowly- how reliable could you get? Only problem I can see is that in a model watertube boiler on the pond, any slight wave could create waterhammer in the pipe as it pitches and rolls and bu**er the valvechest up, however,as you are the model piston valve king, that would be the answer to that particular problem...

I think there would be a market for it- especially for enclosed models where fitting hand feed pumps is a right farce and engine driven ones are hidden at the bottom of an unaccessable deck void. A little hint towards something that might be worth developing to use in steam, it may already have i'm not sure myself. The devices I talk of are the 'automatic air relief valves' that domestic boilers use and are screwed into the top of the heat exchangers . They stay open and release the trapped air in the top of the H.Ex., when the air is released and water touches the valve it automatically shuts the outlet- I think it works on differential pressures between the gas and water. I'm not sure if it relies on being under atmospheric pressure to work, or if condensing steam would stop it working, but if you could link the device to the feed pump steam inlet...

Really looking forward to seeing the LIFU hull!!!! Put me down for one- fit it out like 'Churr' one of the prettiest launches on the Thames, I think I sent you a pic.

Greg
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MONAHAN STEAM MODELS

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Re: Marten, Howes & Baylis PB4
« Reply #60 on: November 23, 2009, 10:52:11 pm »

Hi Gerald,

You exactly right about MR Yarrow's design! :-)) Thank you. This was one of my first thoughts for controlling the steam pump too.

In order for it to work properly, I've found that the steam cylinders on the pump need to weep a very small amount of condensate out of small drain cocks or something similar in order for the pump to clear the water out and start somewhat reliably each time. The second discovery was the need for a small orifice installed on the steam line entering the boiler at the desired water level. In model sized applications the reliability of this type of system functioning each time was not good enough in early tests. That's not to say that this design is bad or should be abandoned at all. If anything it deserves further experimenting and developing, but after these experiments with the first method, as an alternative for achieving the same results of controlling the pump I began designing two other types of mechanical valves which have the ability to be either 100% closed or open to allow the steam to flow to the pump. This is all still in the early stages of development.  

Nick
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Engineman

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Re: Marten, Howes & Baylis PB4
« Reply #61 on: November 27, 2009, 11:59:14 am »

The full sized Torpedo launch that the MHB kit was modeled after originally had a four cylinder compound engine with twin boilers. So they developed this engine for that kit...

And a twin-boilered steam plant too...that produces a very huge steam:
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HS93 (RIP)

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Re: Marten, Howes & Baylis PB4
« Reply #62 on: November 27, 2009, 01:33:33 pm »

they look like MHB boilers very nice what are they for ??


Peter
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Engineman

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Re: Marten, Howes & Baylis PB4
« Reply #63 on: November 27, 2009, 03:51:33 pm »

they look like MHB boilers very nice what are they for ??

Peter

Really??? {-) They are exactly to be MHB boilers. What are they for ? Definetely to feed this 4-cylindered engine onboard this mentioned earlier MHB 63ft TB in scale 1' to 1"  ok2
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Engineman

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Re: Marten, Howes & Baylis PB4
« Reply #64 on: December 01, 2009, 11:46:05 am »

Here's a photo of the MHB Torpedo launch.
Here is a photo of another MHB model of 63' torpedo boat. This one seems to look much more authentic in terms of colouring and details to what USS MAINE had to carry.
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Re: Marten, Howes & Baylis PB4
« Reply #65 on: February 17, 2018, 11:40:41 pm »

Hi all does anyone have a picture or drawing detail of maudslays reversing gear as used on the Cheddar gemini engines as I find it very difficult to track down info
Cheers
John
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ooyah/2

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Re: Marten, Howes & Baylis PB4
« Reply #66 on: February 18, 2018, 06:19:57 pm »

Hi all does anyone have a picture or drawing detail of maudslays reversing gear as used on the Cheddar gemini engines as I find it very difficult to track down info
Cheers
John


Hi John,
Here are some pics of the Cheddar  Gemini engine that I did some repairs for a club mate, I hope that these are of help.


George.
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Re: Marten, Howes & Baylis PB4
« Reply #67 on: February 19, 2018, 08:24:48 am »

Hi George thank you so much these pics are a great help as I am thinking of building similar having already sourced the gears for the reverse linkage formerly from an old cordless drill.
I will be teeming this up to the yarrow boiler in the making and all installed in the steam tug Joffre also in the making so you can see I am very busy.
I searched everywhere on the net for info on the Maudslay reverse mechanism but sadly the old steam stuff is gradually disappearing even a lot of pics and illustrations on this forum have gone
will catch up
Cheers
John
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steamboatmodel

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Re: Marten, Howes & Baylis PB4
« Reply #68 on: February 19, 2018, 03:17:43 pm »

Hi, John,
There was an article in Model Engineer some years back. I did have a copy, but loaned it out and it did not come back. Maybe someone on here could find it. If I remember correct you need to have an even number of gears with the first gear on the main shaft and the last gear on the timing shaft pinned to there shafts and all gears in between free turning.  I did mock it up with Mechano gears at one time
Gerald.
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Re: Marten, Howes & Baylis PB4
« Reply #69 on: February 26, 2018, 03:22:15 pm »


Hi George,
Could you post some photos showing the valve gear in full forward and full reverse?
Gerald.
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Re: Marten, Howes & Baylis PB4
« Reply #70 on: February 26, 2018, 06:10:36 pm »

Hi George,
Could you post some photos showing the valve gear in full forward and full reverse?
Gerald.


Sorry Gerald,
I no longer have the engine and the owner is now deceased, the pics shown are all that I have.


George.
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steamboatmodel

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Re: Marten, Howes & Baylis PB4
« Reply #71 on: February 26, 2018, 09:48:22 pm »


Do you remember how much the reversing leaver had to move from forward to reverse? with the eccentric in full forward does it not have to turn 180 deg. to go to full reverse?
Gerald.
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Re: Marten, Howes & Baylis PB4
« Reply #72 on: February 27, 2018, 08:22:07 pm »

Do you remember how much the reversing leaver had to move from forward to reverse? with the eccentric in full forward does it not have to turn 180 deg. to go to full reverse?
Gerald.


Sorry Gerald, it was some years ago that I did some repairs to my friends engine and as I was never interested in going down the Maudsley road reversing gear I never made any notes on the method used.


George.
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steamboatmodel

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Re: Marten, Howes & Baylis PB4
« Reply #73 on: February 27, 2018, 10:06:13 pm »



OK thanks George,
For such an interesting subject there is very little to find about Maudsley reversing gear.
I did find a U tube video that does give some information;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0NkK9wpTDk
Gerald.
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Re: Marten, Howes & Baylis PB4
« Reply #74 on: February 28, 2018, 09:29:13 am »

Hi John
I did build an engine with this sort of reversing gear back in the 1980's. I'm afraid the photos aren't too good and you can't actually see how much the eccentric shaft has moved, but I can tell you that it is about 100 degrees. For the engine shown which is 5/8 inch bore and stroke the lever to move the gear needed rather more force than was safe to use with a standard servo so you can see that I used a small steam cylinder to operate the gear. In use it was brilliant and would go from full ahead to full astern in a flash.
It was used in a 50 inch steam picket boat as in the photo.
Malcolm
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