Topic: A Beginners Guide to Steam (Read 9523 times)

vintagent · « **Reply #105 on:** June 09, 2010, 07:14:33 PM »

That's brilliant, chaps. Gotcha. Many thanks.

I hadn't thought about a control valve, but I suppose it might be nice.
I was just going to give it a flick and sit back! Doh!! never say it sir, soap and water!
Regards,
Vintagent

CaptVos · « **Reply #106 on:** July 14, 2010, 12:17:22 AM »

Hey guys, there are pages upon pages of information here that i am reading through but it is taking me a while to find the information, although it is good information! I was wondering if someone could point me in the rigt direction of a relatively cheap straight forward but powerful butane burning steam engine for a tug(which is why i said strong, or can a gearbox be aadded to steam too?) if someone could answer for me illl leave this ssection alone for a while till i blow myself up!

CaptVos

derekwarner_decoy · « **Reply #107 on:** July 14, 2010, 01:30:43 AM »

To reach the illustrious title of captain

....you must have served many years studying...so it is the same with steam

1. There is no fast way to amass a worldly knowledge on steam

2. There is no relatively cheap straight forward but powerful butane burning steam engine

3. The 70/30 gas burning component is the boiler, this produces the steam that powers the steam engine

Sorry

CapVos....could I suggest the steam archives here on Mayhem will provide you with an excellent path for reading until you are able to ask questions that can be answered .....Derek

CaptVos · « **Reply #108 on:** July 14, 2010, 01:44:06 AM »

I see, i think im just to overly excited i love stuff like this! sorry guys.........preciate it though!

CaptVos

gondolier88 · « **Reply #109 on:** July 14, 2010, 07:42:44 AM »

Let's be practical here-

What are the particulars of your boat?

What will you be using it for?

What budget do you have and what do you call 'cheap'?

Greg

gyronuts · « **Reply #110 on:** July 14, 2010, 08:39:55 PM »

Silly question but what Gas do you chaps recommend, and where do you buy it, for a cheddar plant. thanks,Bill

gondolier88 · « **Reply #111 on:** July 14, 2010, 08:51:42 PM »

70/30 butane/propane mix, I use Coleman camoing gas cylinders- but GoGas and other suppliers will do just as fine- as long as they are 70/30 mix and have a thread connection to fit your gas refill addaptor onto.

Greg

ooyah/2 · « **Reply #112 on:** July 14, 2010, 09:33:21 PM »

O MR BUNKERBARGE WHAT A HULLABALOO,
YOU'VE CREATED SUCH A STUSHIE,
NOW WHAT CAN YOU DO.

3- pages of advice and not one of the experts have recommended that a newcomer should join a club, preferably one with a steam section where you can be helped along the way.
A newcomer must be frightened to death with , electronic boiler controls, lubricators and other gismos.
Steam plants don't come cheap as 75% of the expert advisers (cheque book modelers) will tell you, all these kit boats and bought steam plants would need a bank loan.
Yes use Mamod and Wilesco and build a boat with one installed, the boat doesn't need to be pretty, look at FLASHTWO his interest is in computerised control and the boat is only a vehicle but it sails.
So don't be put off with some of the things that you read on the forum, I would advise K.N.Harris books on steam engines and boilers they come up regularly on e-bay.
B.B. a great idea to help beginners but THE BEST LAID SCHEMES OF MICE AND MEN GANG AFT............ and get high jacked

ooyah/2 · « **Reply #113 on:** July 14, 2010, 09:36:10 PM »

P.S. i'm off on holiday to the Lake district so I will miss all the death threats and curse.

CaptVos · « **Reply #114 on:** July 14, 2010, 10:42:26 PM »

well ive been researching and found a little tug called the springer tug on here and it looks like a simple yet nice model to build and highly customizable, i see that most people are using single screw electric drives, now i want to keep the single screw drive but i want to do a steam plant (mind you it has to be small since there is limited space) i have a budget of around 300-400 bucks for everything. the purpose for my tug is going to be general use tuging, pushing and towing so it is going to need a big prop strong power plant and probably a good tranny to top it off.

CaptVos

boatmadman · « **Reply #115 on:** July 15, 2010, 08:26:31 AM »

Captvos,

Whilst I am sure it could be done, I think you might find it difficult to fit a steam plant in a springer. There are many more components required for steam than electric. Also, you might find running time reduced with steam compared to electric, unless you have some form of boiler water level control.

Have you any previous experience with steam? If not, I would suggest you go to your local club and talk to someone with a steam boat. There are safety issues around steam you need to be aware of as well.

Twin prop springers can be done, I builr one with twin steerable kort nozzles, very manouverable and lots of power.

Ian

Circlip · « **Reply #116 on:** July 15, 2010, 08:39:05 AM »

Quote

I would advise K.N.Harris books on steam engines and boilers they come up regularly on e-bay.

Don't even have to buy it now ooyah/2 , (I bought my copies years ago), K.N. would be a rich man on royalties from the recommendations on this forum alone for the number of times I've put it forward, same with "Experimental Flash Steam" from the dynamic duo, seems reading is a dying art.

Regards Ian.

SteamboatPhil · « **Reply #117 on:** July 15, 2010, 10:43:49 AM »

CaptVos, oh you can get a steam plant into a springer, here is mine, it has a semi-flash boiler, voporizing petrol blowlamp and a flat twin 1/2 bore and stroke single acting engine (E T Wesbury design)
Chugs along at a fair old rate of knots

boatmadman · « **Reply #118 on:** July 15, 2010, 11:11:10 AM »

Thats me told

CaptVos · « **Reply #119 on:** July 15, 2010, 05:03:58 PM »

steamboat phil that is an excellent setup there, very clean id have to say and the motor looks well taken care of not dirty or anything at alll! iill probably agree with you guys electric is the way to go im currently in the tug R&D section discussing plans for a pushboat modeled after the ones on the mississippi here......she will be electric! thanks guys...

CaptVos

Fred Graham · « **Reply #120 on:** July 30, 2010, 03:53:14 PM »

Hi Folks,

I make and use paraffin and petrol blowlamps for firing boilers. Now that LPG is in more common use it seems very difficult to find a supplier of jets (or nipples) for use on blowlamps.

The are many old articles in Model Engineer which talk about obtaining them from hardware shops but the seem to be as rare as hen's teeth. I have trawlwd the internet and find only LPG and sites which have blowlamp colectors but seldom find a supplier of blowlamp spares.

Anyone Know of one?

All the best, Fred Graham

SteamboatPhil · « **Reply #121 on:** July 30, 2010, 08:47:38 PM »

A little tip Fred (don't tell anyone).
Nip off to boot sales, there somewhere you will find someone selling old blowlamps for use as decorative items, now this is where its gets clever, pick up said item, check it has the jet, offer the seller a quid for the just the jet (be fair people who put them on the mantlepiece don't need the jet), and now while the seller will be more than happy to accept, only because he can't see how you're going to get the little jet out,.............but ..... this is where you whip out your jet key, and hey everone happy.
I've been doing this for ages (and I always carry a spare jet key) so I have got myself a fair stock (mind you I have got 11 boats with petrol blowlamps).
I have tried making my own, broke too many drills just to produce 1 good jet----doh !!!!

Go on give it a go

Canopus · « **Reply #122 on:** June 14, 2011, 02:05:20 PM »

I have been running a Cheddar models Puffin unit for about 6 years now and whilst found it relatively expensive to purchase has been great fun and a worthwhile investment. Sadly Cheddar are no longer trading so that route is closed.

I think a beginner would be interested in some general tips, in no particular order:

1) Steam is great fun but it's not like an electric motor it needs some sensible servicing and looking after.

2) It's duration on the water is strictly limited unless you get water feed pumps which increases the complexity and expense.

4) A Puffin unit will run for 30 mins non stop with a gentle fire.

5) Simple is best but a single acting Mamod unit or similar, wont self start and won't give you much power albeit it will chug along a small model for maybe 15 mins? You may also find the limitations of such a unit rapidly put you off, but they can still be fun but don't expect exciting performance.

6) Keep it simple and don't try to buy all the gizmo's out there until you have gained some practical experience of actually sailing steam. If your first installation is too complex you will get discouraged as one adjustment leads to another.

7) Steam is not hard but it is hot and it is different from electric.

By and large an electric motor will allways be significantly cheaper, have much more power and be easier to control than a steam engine, but, it's not as much fun!

9) Unfortunately to get a practical steam plant off the shelf that will perform like an electric motor will cost in the region of £400 - £700. By that I mean steam up, sail with proportional forward and reverse and a reasonable duration, say 30 mins, but it will last a lifetime and will continue to chug away long after the electric motor had expired.

10) Generally steam is not for fast boats - a gentle walking pace is about the best you will get, unless you start to get complex and expensive.

11) It is not hard to operate, you will probably gain practical knowledge in about 2-3 sails.

12) Don't be discouraged by the complexities - most of us drive but don't know how a car works in detail! Steam is the same, it's fine to just try it, but as per item 9) above, it's not cheap.

Hope this helps

Geoff

wrongtimeben · « **Reply #123 on:** May 15, 2012, 07:42:47 PM »

As a new member, i hardly feel worthy enough to comment, but would like to thank all those who've made relevant and helpful contributions.

My journey in steam began about 20 years ago with a Mamod steam engine. i fired it up for the first time in about 18 years the other day. i was chuffed as punch until the pivot screw stripped and shot me in the chest whilst the boiler emptied its contents in the opposite direction. I have to say, i did put my coffee down for a minute.

Later on it was deemed a good idea that undertake a cadet ship in marine engineering - it was not- however i did get some education in steam and also a 5 month trip on a steam driven LNG carrier.

What i have come away with is that steam should be respected, especially the invisible stuff at 60 bar.

However, beginners should not be put off in anyway. i have further been convinced of this, seeing the plant that my uncle installed in S L Wear recently.

I am more than confident in my abilities to construct a boiler in a safe way that complies to regs. BUT is it possible to do so and have it certified without it costing more than buying one off the shelf?

I look forward to your response

Ben

ooyah/2 · « **Reply #124 on:** May 15, 2012, 11:22:38 PM »

Ben,
If you have the engineering ability it should be no problem to build your own boiler.

Think about what size of boiler and type you wish to make as you will have to buy a piece of copper tube and all the materials to make your boiler bushes and fittings.

A must for a newcomer to steam is K.N.Harris's book Model boilers and Boiler making in it you will get all of the Calcs needed to build your boiler.

No doubt uncle Jerry will help you and yes it will cost much less than a commercially bought one and join a club that has boiler testers to certificate your work when completed, give Jerry my regards
George.

wrongtimeben · « **Reply #125 on:** May 16, 2012, 03:50:30 PM »

Thanks george.

I was up late last night reading k n harris' work. His engines book is, finally helping me piece together the puzzle of slide valve design. People keep telling me to build an oscillator first, but i really dont want to.

Regards will be sent to Jerry. I'll have word with Alice and get her to convince him to help me.

Could i also ask, is it possible for a single cylinder double acting recip. engine to be self starting, with valve gear?

Thanks again.

Ben

Circlip · « **Reply #126 on:** May 16, 2012, 04:57:30 PM »

Quote

Could i also ask, is it possible for a single cylinder double acting recip. engine to be self starting, with valve gear?

Not repeatedly, a Barring device is required. For reliability, you need a twin double acting with cranks at 90deg. to each other.

Regards Ian.

wrongtimeben · « **Reply #127 on:** May 16, 2012, 05:53:52 PM »

Thanks Ian,

A twin it is. Although i do have a drysuit that could be donned for swimming retrievals.

By barring device i'm assuming you mean for rotating the crankshaft. have experienced a ratchet type on a v12 medium speed diesel genset. i didn't like it. do people do such things for model boats?

Ben

ooyah/2 · « **Reply #128 on:** May 16, 2012, 08:41:04 PM »

By barring device i'm assuming you mean for rotating the crankshaft. have experienced a ratchet type on a v12 medium speed diesel genset. i didn't like it. do people do such things for model boats?

Ben
[/quote]

Ben,

People have come up with all sorts of Heath Robinson devices, myself included, to make single cylinder engines reversible and self starting with a medium amount of success.
Best way without a doubt is a twin cylinder, either slide valve or piston valve.

Patternmaker has a thread on building a boiler ( http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=28450.0 ) in the steam section , also not so long ago in the steam section Building a Stuart V twin and boiler, this will give you some ideas on boiler building.(http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?board=92.0

Do you have access to machinery, lathe or mill ?

Can I suggest that you ask the moderator to shift this thread to Steam.

George.

wrongtimeben · « **Reply #129 on:** May 16, 2012, 09:56:40 PM »

Thanks george,

i'll have a look at those posts.

Yes, i have a small lathe, which will soon be equipped with vertical slide. I like to overcome challenges!

Also, will act on your suggestion and try to get thread/posts moved.

Many thanks,

Ben.

ooyah/2 · « **Reply #130 on:** May 16, 2012, 11:33:38 PM »

Ben,
Go to the bottom R.H. side of the page REPORT TO MODERATOR click on it and just ask to have your thread moved Steam..

Easy Peasy.
George.

TheLongBuild · « **Reply #131 on:** May 16, 2012, 11:39:49 PM »

Quote from: ooyah/2 on May 16, 2012, 11:33:38 PM

Ben,
Go to the bottom R.H. side of the page REPORT TO MODERATOR click on it and just ask to have your thread moved Steam..

Easy Peasy.
George.

You can not report your own thread using that method, generally a Pm to a Mod will sort it if it was a real issue.

ooyah/2 · « **Reply #132 on:** May 17, 2012, 09:24:14 AM »

Quote from: TheLongBuild on May 16, 2012, 11:39:49 PM

You can not report your own thread using that method, generally a Pm to a Mod will sort it if it was a real issue.

How then do you contact the Moderator to move the Thread ?
George.

Tug---Kenny · « **Reply #133 on:** May 17, 2012, 11:07:01 AM »

Just click on the name od Moderator and send a private mail.

it IS your club, after all.

ken

Circlip · « **Reply #134 on:** May 17, 2012, 01:35:29 PM »

One point that never ceases to amaze is that by using a single acting single cylinder engine, be it oscillator/slide or piston valve and adding a V/P propeller, forward/reverse and all points in between are available using a constant revving engine.

so we then get back to a simple installation. Whilst some of the bling queens (Chill George

)seen at exhibitions and at the pondside could frighten the beginner off, you don't need to spend a mint to enjoy burnin yer fingies.

Regards Ian.

patternmaker · « **Reply #135 on:** May 17, 2012, 04:07:43 PM »

Who are the so called bling queens Ian ?

Mick

Circlip · « **Reply #136 on:** May 17, 2012, 05:14:14 PM »

No Mick, this is a beginners guide to steam.

and no, I don't want a free pen.

Regards Ian.

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Author Topic: A Beginners Guide to Steam (Read 9523 times)

vintagent

CaptVos

CaptVos

gyronuts

ooyah/2

ooyah/2

CaptVos

CaptVos

Fred Graham

Canopus