Model Boat Mayhem

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length.
Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Down

Author Topic: Steam Jet Engine  (Read 30864 times)

benjaml1

  • Guest
Re: Steam Jet Engine
« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2010, 10:08:37 am »

PDX technology injects steam into a water flow and relies on the shock wave produced by the sudden condensation of the steam to accelerate the water in the tube... Of course the underwater unit in itself would generate drag, therefore an inboard unit similar to jet boat drive may be more efficient...
Logged

flashtwo

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 521
  • Location: Sevenoaks, Kent, England
Re: Steam Jet Engine
« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2010, 11:17:33 am »

Hi Ben,

(The following comments are my own opinion and may not reflect the true state of PDX's engine - (legal note!))

I had a friend who invested £5000 in PDX's underwater jet engine! I explained to him that a similar  method was used by Savery over three hundred years ago and it was called the atmospheric pump.

I think, although I may be corrected,  PDX said the engine still worked at 50% output with the input blocked, which seem to imply that the engine wasn't working as described.

If you read PDX's patent application (New Zealand NZ522762, US US2008310970) ,you'll see that little basic physics is explained and it all appears wishfull thinking; they themselves don't quite seem to understand the effect that pumping air into the intake has.

My thinking is that the heat energy in the steam warms up the water before it can do any useful work. Condensing steam to create a vacuum to do work is very inefficient, it is better to release the heat energy in the steam, or any other gas, by expansion in a cylinder (creating pressure) or through a nozzle (creating velocity).

I've not heard of anymore developement of the PDX system as a propulsion device.

This morning I'm fitting an internal brass tube in the boat to act as the "frame reference" eliminator. It involves major layout mods, but I hope to have it finished for testing next week.

Thanks for your interest.

Ian.

Logged

benjaml1

  • Guest
Re: Steam Jet Engine
« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2010, 12:04:39 pm »

Await your results with great interest... :-))
Logged

Circlip

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4,465
  • Location: North of Watford, South of Hadrians wall
Re: Steam Jet Engine
« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2010, 12:14:27 pm »

Quote
it is better to release the heat energy in the steam, or any other gas, by expansion in a cylinder (creating pressure) or through a nozzle (creating velocity).

  Americans used this to effect by gaining exrta thrust on take off of "Loaded" B52s by injecting water into the jet engines.

  Regards   Ian.
Logged
You might not like what I say, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.
 
What I said is not what you  think you heard.

dreadnought72

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,892
  • Wood butcher with ten thumbs
  • Location: Airdrie, Scotland
Re: Steam Jet Engine
« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2010, 06:39:19 pm »

Hmmmm.

Bear in mind that:

momentum = chalk

while

kinetic energy = cheese

 %)

Kinetic energy is measured in joules, the unit of cheese energy, while momentum is measured in kg*m/s (or Newton seconds). A different kettle of fish.

The joules you're burning boils water, and the resulting pressurised steam has kinetic energy (on a molecular level, think of all those hot H2O molecules bouncing about inside the boiler. Temperature is just a measure of speed). Once released, the steam's kinetic energy is (hopefully) all sent aft. The momentum of the steam is the steam's mass times its velocity, as you say.

To maintain a steady-state of thrust (while acknowledging a slow net loss of water and propane over time) the amount of steam leaving the boiler (i.e. a mass of steam being accelerated from 0 to "v" m/s in the boat's reference frame) must not exceed the energy the burner's putting into the boiler (minus a bit, due to natural inefficiencies) else you'll run out of pressure. So we've obviously got a KE limit.

Maximising the momentum for a limited KE will produce more thrust. As you say, both momentum and KE are dependent on mass and velocity, and maximum momentum from a given KE suggests a low velocity and a large mass is best. This probably explains why pure steam-rocketry is inefficient: you can't boil water quickly enough for a respectable mass-loss, and the velocity of a released steam jet is automatically high. (This also answers why "chucking a cannon ball" is better than "chucking a marble".)

So, if we've a high-velocity/low-mass jet and would be better with a low-velocity/high-mass jet, I think the answer for more thrust/better efficiency comes down to:

1/ Utilising ambient air or water to increase the mass of the thrust stream (and thereby lower its velocity).
2/ Using a burner big enough to generate lots of steam, then lowering the temperature of this steam (= lowering its velocity) before it goes overboard by using a nozzle to allow the steam to expand down to 1atm.
3/ Both the above.

Andy


Logged
Enjoying every minute sailing W9465 Mertensia

flashtwo

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 521
  • Location: Sevenoaks, Kent, England
Re: Steam Jet Engine
« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2010, 08:09:20 pm »

Hi Andy,

Thankyou for your much appreciated input.

The physics that I couldn't understand was the ability of the exhaust to knock over the model destroyer with a force far in excess of that available to push the jet boat, which seem to contradict Newton's Third law.

I agree with you that the units of measurement are chalk and cheese, but according to my measurements of gas exhaust velocity (250mph) and mass flow (kg/s) there would be the equivalent of 120 Watts (mechanical not heat) in the exhaust, which was just disappearing into the ether and was not contributing in accelerating the jet boat.

There was a chap who fitted one of the those Wren type gas turbines to a model boat and was greatly disappointed with the performance. The typical exhaust velocity for those engines is about 1000mph, which, for a relatively stationary boat, resulted in most of the energy being kinetic and having zero effect.

As you can see earlier in the post, I did try and increase the mass flow by using an air augmentor, as you have suggested, but it didn't offer any great gain. On the other hand the use of your ambient water is to be tried. I'm currently installing a water tube in the bottom of the boat, through which (I hope!) the kinetic energy will be transfered between the high velocity gases and the water resulting in greater ejected mass at a lower velocity. This should reduce the kinetic energy component that is otherwise wasted to the environment.

The alternative is to use a turbine as the "observer" of the kinetic energy and gear it down to a prop drive, but that defeats the object of the project of using the power of a flash boiler without melting an engine.

Thanks for contributing to the discussion of the fundamental physics behind the problem - I'm pleased that I've learnt something new.

Ian
Logged

benjaml1

  • Guest
Re: Steam Jet Engine
« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2010, 10:05:45 pm »

Would this work.... ???? I'm not sure...but with superheated steam contacting cold (lake) water, it's bound to get interesting... :-)


Logged

flashtwo

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 521
  • Location: Sevenoaks, Kent, England
Re: Steam Jet Engine
« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2010, 11:25:48 pm »

Aha - great minds!

That is very similar to what I'm trying to achieve, but without the venturi.

I've cut an enormous elongated hole in the bottom of the hull for a 38mm brass pipe (aluminium might melt!) to enter at an angle and another hole in the transom for the exhaust. I would prefer it to be glass fibre, but I will take some temperature measurements with the prototype first.

The design of the Bengine ensures that the exhaust is not primarily steam, but mainly the combustion gases at high velocity, the advantage being that there is far less condensible volume.

As you say, its bound to get interesting!

Ian.
Logged

gondolier88

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,347
  • www.coniston-regatta.co.uk
  • Location: Crake Valley, Cumbria
    • Coniston Regatta
Re: Steam Jet Engine
« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2010, 11:26:50 pm »

Other way round might work better- just like a boiler injector- you increases the velocity of the steam at detriment to pressure, this picks up water extremely well, but instead of having a combining cone that reduces velovity and increases the pressure back to boiler pressure, a further venturi would increase velocity and lower pressure even further.

In theory!

Greg
Logged
Don't get heated...get steamed up!

dreadnought72

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,892
  • Wood butcher with ten thumbs
  • Location: Airdrie, Scotland
Re: Steam Jet Engine
« Reply #34 on: June 26, 2010, 12:05:35 am »

Hi Ian

...according to my measurements of gas exhaust velocity (250mph) and mass flow (kg/s) there would be the equivalent of 120 Watts (mechanical not heat) in the exhaust, which was just disappearing into the ether and was not contributing in accelerating the jet boat.

I've been reading about Tesla turbines recently. Would there be (has there been?) any model application for high-speed steam using that technology?

Andy
Logged
Enjoying every minute sailing W9465 Mertensia

flashtwo

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 521
  • Location: Sevenoaks, Kent, England
Re: Steam Jet Engine
« Reply #35 on: July 08, 2010, 08:40:36 am »

Hi,

Just to let you know that the Steam Jet Bengine boat "Vital Thrust" will be on display at the Guildford Model Engineering Society steam rally this weekend 10th & 11th July, 2010.

See http://www.gmes.org.uk/find.htm for the location of the society, it is from 11am - 5pm each day.

V.T. has been modified with a brass duct, similar to a conventional water jet boat, where the exhaust is directed into the the duct to induce a water flow, as was suggested by members recent posts.

The current problem is the separation of the gas and water in the pipe caused by the gas rising to the top and not sufficiently coupling with the water. Current plans are to fit thin brass horizontal plates in the duct to reduce the gas/water separation (any other suggestions?), but this will have to wait until after the rally.

Due to its current stage of modification V.T. will not be demonstrated, but, hopefully, the display will be a good topic of discussion.

Ian.
Logged

benjaml1

  • Guest
Re: Steam Jet Engine
« Reply #36 on: July 08, 2010, 08:52:36 am »

Quote
The current problem is the separation of the gas and water in the pipe caused by the gas rising to the top and not sufficiently coupling with the water. Current plans are to fit thin brass horizontal plates in the duct to reduce the gas/water separation (any other suggestions?),


If vanes dont work I would try multi nozzles. I'm still a believer in the venturi/eductor principal though....
Logged

benjaml1

  • Guest
Re: Steam Jet Engine
« Reply #37 on: July 08, 2010, 11:26:06 am »

Another thought... If you are familiar with the noise reducing upgrades on Boing 707's which was a petal shaped exhaust nozzle. This allowed ambient air to enter into the jet stream, reducing the noise causing eddys made by the shear... The next noise abatement evolution was the high bypass ratio turbo fan. Little did they know they would hit on improved efficiencies... However, I digress...

Maybe you should design /manufacture your nozzle as such ??
Logged

Martin (Admin)

  • Administrator
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 23,422
  • Location: Peterborough, UK
    • Model Boat Mayhem
Re: Steam Jet Engine
« Reply #38 on: July 08, 2010, 05:23:36 pm »

Ah, the 707, one of my favourite airliners....    :-)
Logged
"This is my firm opinion, but what do I know?!" -  Visit the Mayhem FaceBook Groups!  &  Giant Models

flashtwo

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 521
  • Location: Sevenoaks, Kent, England
Re: Steam Jet Engine
« Reply #39 on: July 08, 2010, 07:59:34 pm »

Thanks guys,

I hope you're not suggesting that I join an aero-modellers club - wash your mouths out!

The by-pass idea is not a digression Benjamin, but a very good idea! One thought I had earlier on, was to allow ambient air into the plenum chamber, where normally the steam jet induces the combustion gas flow. The extra ambient air could increase the mass flow without pulling too much air into the combustion chamber, which, because of the boiler coil, has flow resistance.

I would imagine a kind of wide gate valve on top of the plenum chamber, whose opening could be adjusted as required, very much like the gate valve on top of the old Avon jets (not my favourite engine) used to bleed excess compressor air flow.

Perhaps I'll end up fitting a power turbine - what a hybrid machine that would be!

Ian.
Logged

benjaml1

  • Guest
Re: Steam Jet Engine
« Reply #40 on: July 09, 2010, 12:19:58 am »

Have fun.... :-))
Logged

flashtwo

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 521
  • Location: Sevenoaks, Kent, England
Re: Steam Jet Engine
« Reply #41 on: July 15, 2010, 12:48:42 pm »

Hi,

The jet boat "Vital Thrust" is part of the way through its conversion for transfering the gas exhaust kinetic energy into the water flow. The Bengine has been revrsed and the gases are now directed into a brass duct which allows water to enter in the keel and out through the transome.

The brass guide plates to stop the gas separating out from the water before energy transfer are to be fitted soon.

Ian
Logged

flashtwo

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 521
  • Location: Sevenoaks, Kent, England
Re: Steam Jet Engine
« Reply #42 on: July 15, 2010, 12:49:53 pm »

Here's the other photo.
Logged

gondolier88

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,347
  • www.coniston-regatta.co.uk
  • Location: Crake Valley, Cumbria
    • Coniston Regatta
Re: Steam Jet Engine
« Reply #43 on: July 15, 2010, 04:55:38 pm »

Fantastic, I can't wait to see this work- could you expalin why the inlet and outlet are the same diameter- I would have thought that making the exhaust smaller than the inlet would allow more energy to combine and speed up the exit?

Greg
Logged
Don't get heated...get steamed up!

flashtwo

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 521
  • Location: Sevenoaks, Kent, England
Re: Steam Jet Engine
« Reply #44 on: July 15, 2010, 05:33:18 pm »

Hi Greg,

I'm actually trying to do the opposite - slow the exit down by interacting the gas with the water.

Any kinetic energy present in the exhaust is totally lost and provides no propulsion to the boat, therefore the exhaust has to be at the slowest velocity (relative to the boat) - hence minimum kinetic energy.

I discussed this with many visitors to the Guildford Steam Rally, one of whom nodded at all the right points. I said that he seemed to understand what I was saying and he replied that he was the proverbial rocket scientist (with Qinetiq)!

Ian.


Logged

gondolier88

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,347
  • www.coniston-regatta.co.uk
  • Location: Crake Valley, Cumbria
    • Coniston Regatta
Re: Steam Jet Engine
« Reply #45 on: July 15, 2010, 05:59:13 pm »

Ah, I see- then as there will be more water by volume after the gas enters should the exhuast not then actually be larger?

Greg
Logged
Don't get heated...get steamed up!

SteamboatPhil

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,776
  • Location: Dieppe, France
Re: Steam Jet Engine
« Reply #46 on: July 16, 2010, 04:31:13 am »

Oh you so have to bring it to Blackheath on Sunday Ian   :-))
Logged
Steamed up all the time

logoman

  • Guest
Re: Steam Jet Engine
« Reply #47 on: July 17, 2010, 08:53:23 pm »

Oh you so have to bring it to Blackheath on Sunday Ian   :-))

what is happening at Blackheath?
Logged

flashtwo

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 521
  • Location: Sevenoaks, Kent, England
Re: Steam Jet Engine
« Reply #48 on: July 18, 2010, 07:32:53 am »

Hello again,

I didn't see you at Guildford this year.

The Blackheath Club have a regatta today at the pond on the south side of the heath. I think there will straight runners and tethered hydros there. I will be there with "Vital Byte".

Hope to see you and the familly.

Ian.
Logged

logoman

  • Guest
Re: Steam Jet Engine
« Reply #49 on: July 18, 2010, 09:38:51 pm »

Hi Ian,
I went to the Toy Boat Regatta at Colney Heath today, I wish could have been in two places at once!
did you take any photos at Blackheath today? also, where do i find out about Regattas at Blackheath?
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.1 seconds with 21 queries.