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Author Topic: TRV1A Prop size.  (Read 70294 times)

andywright

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TRV1A Prop size.
« on: September 03, 2010, 01:30:17 pm »

Opening up a can of worms again here, a few TRV1A's have been built now on the forum, so whats the thoughts on largest/best prop size, I am turning a Prop shop 2230, 3 blade, and am trying to make up my mind whether to go for a 4 blade, or go up a size to a 2441 3 blade or go for a 4 blade, don't want to overpower the engine, but the three blade 2230 is definately too small, the boat will take larger. The increase in diameter isn't a problem, but its a 30% increase in pitch.

For those not familiar with Prop Shop props, 2230 is 2.2 inch dia, 3 inch pitch and 2441 is 2.4 inch dia x 4.1 inch pitch.

I also realise that a steam engine can give better endurance with a larger prop turning slower, but there is a time when the engine may not turn the prop.
Being a professional boat/ship skipper I do understand props. I may be a while answering posts as I am away at work for the next fortnight.

Regards Andy

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mogogear

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Re: TRV1A Prop size.
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2010, 05:57:14 pm »

Timely question Andy--I too have a TRv1A slated for my torpedo boat destroyer - dual props and my target size is 2" 4-blade and pitch is yet to be determined....

.Sitting and watching the response you get.. What size boat and displacement would your be pushing?
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kiwimodeller

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Re: TRV1A Prop size.
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2010, 11:36:01 am »

Andy, I have not yet put a TVR1A in to a hull but I have now had several runs with my VR1A single cylinder version of the motor in a River Queen hull. The prop I have on that is a WADA variable pitch three blade which the literature says is 2.25" dia and 2.5" pitch. I can tell you that the single cylinder will turn this prop on full pitch at half throttle and only 30psi steam pressure so I am sure that the twin cylinder engine will pull much more prop than you are currently running. I was not aware that Prop Shop made props with more pitch than the diameter, the suppliers on this side of the world seem to just stock props with the pitch about the same as the diameter. I was planning on a four blade of at least 2.75" diameter and pitch for the twin but if I could get one with the extra pitch would be looking for something like 2.5 by 3.5 four blade. Hope this helps, Ian. p.s. How do you calculate the equivalent in two separate props Mo? Are two 2" x 2" the same as one 4" x 4"?
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mogogear

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Re: TRV1A Prop size.
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2010, 05:45:37 pm »

Kiwimodeler.,....

Good to hear your single cylinder results . Calculations :embarrassed: ...??  not that far along other than studying similar sized boats and other folks choices.

Many of the Dumas webpages do not have the pitch listed for the props-- just statements like " These are recommended for steam application"

I hope to garner the needed guide-lines here so I do not buy 2 or 3 sets of props to arrive at the magic working set :-))

If you are in NZ - I do pass along my hopes that all in your group are safe from the recent earthquake :o

I shall sit down now and take notes while someone offers up the knowledge needed!

Thanks
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MONAHAN STEAM MODELS

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Re: TRV1A Prop size.
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2010, 10:44:53 pm »

Calculating the correct Propeller (or Wheel) pitch can be quite simple. There are a couple things you should know first. Maximum desired engine speed (RPM) at hull speed, which on most steam driven boats this is equal to propeller speed unless a reduction drive or gear box is being used. Hull speed is the next part of the equation you should know.

As most of you know already propellers are almost always advertised with two measurements. So if you had a 3" x 4" propeller. This means it is 3" diameter and 4" pitch. Now picture these measurements like a thread on a bolt, the pitch tells you how far it moves in 1 revolution. E.g. a thread with a 1mm pitch will move into a hole by 1mm in 1 revolution of the bolt. So with a propeller, given there is no resistance, as the propeller turns, it will push its self through the water, 1 revolution giving 4" of forward motion in this example.

Calculating Prop Slip

Unlike a threaded bolt being tightened in to a threaded hole, propellers will slip in water when there is resistance. The source of this resistance is called a boat. Although a propeller does 1 complete turn, instead of traveling 4" it may only travels 3". Working out the propeller slip is very straight forward. You need to know your propeller speed and hull speed. In the ideal world, you want 0% slip. In reality, anywhere between 10% and 20% would be acceptable, but on the smaller steam launches you can often find the slip is as much as 25% or more.

For example, the hull is doing 3mph and the 3" x 4" propeller is doing 1000 rpm.

1000 rpm x 4" = 4000" a minute.

3mph = 3168" a minute.

3168 / 4000 x 100 = 79.2%  (This is the % of used thrust.)

Thus 100% - 79.2% = 20.8% slip.

How to choose the correct prop


This can be a lot simpler than just having to guess. The important thing is to know your engine speed which is the same as your propeller speed when using a direct drive. This will have been for the most part designed into the engine. So if the maximum recommended RPM is 1000, it is best to aim for that. You should also work out your hull speed.

Calculating Hull speed

Hull speed (knots) = 1.34 x Square Root of (Length of Water Line in feet)

1 Knot = 1.150779 mph

E.g. for a 3 foot boat, the hull speed is:

Hull speed = 1.34 x Sq Rt(3 foot)

Hull Speed = 1.34 x 1.732

Hull Speed = 2.32 knots = 2.67 mph.

Say you calculated a running speed of 3mph, and you want to aim for 15% prop slip, all you do is calculate the correct pitch.

Adding this into the calculation:

So if 15% is the target slip, that means that there will be 85% of useful thrust.

3mph = 3168" a minute.

"Pitch Distance" = 3168 / 85 x 100

"Pitch Distance" = 3727" a minute  (This is the distance the propeller would move with 15% slip.)

"Pitch Distance" / RPM = Pitch

3727 / 1000 = 3.73"

Meaning the pitch required is 3.73".

You may want to go for an 4" pitch in this case, since it is usually better to have the engine producing slightly slower RPM's with the larger pitch than slightly faster with the smaller pitch. This greatly reduces steam consumption thus extending running times.

Propeller Diameter


In most cases for steam engine powered boats, the bigger the better (within reason). The larger the propeller the better their efficiency.

Historically Steam launch propellers generally have 3 large blades although four blades have become common over the years. This also adds to their efficiency as we are not running them at high speeds. As long as the pitch is suited for the engine speed and hull speed, you shouldn't go far wrong.

Typically for steam powered models you want to try to fit the largest diameter propeller possible that the model will take. While pitch is closely related to hull speed and final desired engine rpm, finding the correct diameter of a propeller is closely related to the torque output of your engine.

How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?

Currently I am running experiments with my own steam models that closely relates to the subject of finding the correct propeller size and pitch.

As I mentioned, propeller diameter closely relates to the engines B.H.P. & torque. The method I'm choosing to use for determining final torque output at a desired final engine rpm is through the use of a "type" of "Prony Brake".  For my own personal purposes, I am picking a desired steam output pressure (let's say 60psi) that I would like my boiler to maintain while operating at the desired final engine's rpm's (let's say 800 rpm) while moving through the water at hull speed. The boiler's required heating surfaces will then be calculated to maintain the desired rate of steam production. To find the engine's final torque output the "Prony Brake" will be used to apply resistance to the engine thus slowing it down until the rpm's reach the desired final rpm's. A final torque output reading will be calculated by taking the information gathered through the experiment. The torque output will then be used to calculate the most ideal diameter propeller and pitch for my personal steam launch model. I'll get into all the math required for determining the correct propeller diameter at a later date since most of you will not know what the final output torque of your engines will be anyways. Most model steam engine manufacturers don't even know it.

Conclusion

There is a lot more to it than what I have added above regarding finding the correct pitch and diameter propeller for a STEAM MODEL but this is meant to be just the basics for getting you close to choosing the right prop. If you would like to really go overboard regarding learning all about sizing propellers than I would recommend finding a copy of Dave Gerr's Book: Propeller Handbook. You can find copies on Amazon for reasonable prices. This book is considered by most in the full size boating community to be the Bible on propellers.
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logoman

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Re: TRV1A Prop size.
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2010, 11:22:11 pm »

Nick, you're mad far down the rabbit hole :-))
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mogogear

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Re: TRV1A Prop size.
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2010, 05:33:05 am »

Wish I had know it was that simple {-) ( I will need to print off that post and read numerous times...till it all sinks in deeper :embarrassed: )

Nick - thank you so much for taking the time to share and type out your experience. I am glad Andy asked the question that coincided with your experiments and that I fell into the answer so easily

Gentlemen all!!
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kno3

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Re: TRV1A Prop size.
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2010, 10:12:51 am »

Nick, that's a very good explanation, as most of us don't know these things. A moderator should make Nick's post sticky in the steam boat section, and with an appropriate title.
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andywright

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Re: TRV1A Prop size.
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2010, 12:47:34 pm »

Timely question Andy--I too have a TRv1A slated for my torpedo boat destroyer - dual props and my target size is 2" 4-blade and pitch is yet to be determined....

.Sitting and watching the response you get.. What size boat and displacement would your be pushing?

Hi its a 42 inch widish beam launch, not one of the narrow beam types, displacement is about 8lbs I think, I started off with the Solent Hull from Metcalf Mouldings.

http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3755.0

I have a 3.5 inch Maccsteam boiler.
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andywright

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Re: TRV1A Prop size.
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2010, 12:51:12 pm »

Looking at Nicks comprehensive (phew) post, I think I'll go for the largest prop I can fit which is probably the 2441, 2.4 inch dia. I'll make up for the l;ack of dia by going four blade, will keep everyone posted, I'm away at work for a fortnight.
Prop Shop make dedicated steam props which are of larger pitch than a normal electric type prop.
Andy
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gondolier88

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Re: TRV1A Prop size.
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2010, 01:01:42 pm »

Hi Andy,

My personal opinion, TVR1's have such a low power output I think it would struggle on a four bladed prop- go for a larger pitch three bladed one instead, needing less power you will get more revs and hence more speed.

Greg
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andywright

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Re: TRV1A Prop size.
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2010, 02:29:09 pm »

Point taken, it goes quite well on the three blade I have, but I orderd the wrong shaft thread and drilled it out for 5mm, in doing so , the prop isn't true, so it needs replacing, i just wanted to improve the running, so maybe the next size up three blade then.
You are correct about the low power on the TRV1A, I would love to have had a Monahans engine, but unfortunately before saving to buy one Nick has ceased production, will now have to look at an Anton I guess.

Andy
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steamshed

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Re: TRV1A Prop size.
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2010, 02:46:38 pm »

Hi Andy
Just notice your reference to Anton, seems we are both looking at the same route, however having been in contact with them, the expected delivery for their Jade is Jan/Feb 2011
Time to save I guess   :-))
Mike
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andywright

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Re: TRV1A Prop size.
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2010, 02:58:11 pm »

Thats a long time, steam engines are becoming a pain to source, oh well keep looking.
Off to work for a fortnight hear from you all then.
Andy
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KBIO

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Re: TRV1A Prop size.
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2010, 05:35:22 pm »

Good afternoon! :-)
Thank you for this bright explanation Monahan! :-))
I wont look at the TV tonight. I'll look @ your calculation sheet now, prioir to order a propeller.
the expected delivery for their Jade is Jan/Feb 2011 You bet , you have for it before X'Mas Mike???!! ok2

Thats a long time, steam engines are becoming a pain to source, oh well keep looking
Although, I look myself on your side of the channel, did you check w/ JMC: http://jmc.vapeur.free.fr/; or JPB in France http://jpb-vapeur.wifeo.com/:
http://www.holzapfeldampf.ch/right-french.html
http://www.regner-dampftechnik.de/echtdampf/index.php
http://dampfmaschinenfabrik.de/kontakt.htm
http://www.hielscher-dampfmodelle.de/cms/index.php?&vmcchk=1
in Germany?
Cheers! :-)
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mogogear

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Re: TRV1A Prop size.
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2010, 06:48:59 pm »

To keep up the spirit of clarifying small mysteries to me in the world of Prop's...


Only because Prop shop props through Loyalhanna are shown to be a possible 6 month wait time --I looked at the other options..

    RABOESCH PROPS uses a delineation of "A" type and "D" type 3 blade props?? Blade shape? and which type is better suited to steam application if either is suited ... ?

Thanks
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pipercub1772

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Re: TRV1A Prop size.
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2010, 11:46:21 pm »

hi ,just saved up for one of nicks sparrow engines but to late now just has the pound /dollar improved typical hey,i have started looking at the anton jade engine any reports on this anyone, also steamshead what sort of price did they come up with also dose anyone speak english when you contact them my french is  none existant ,thanks allan
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MONAHAN STEAM MODELS

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Re: TRV1A Prop size.
« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2010, 12:32:00 am »

Hi its a 42 inch widish beam launch, not one of the narrow beam types, displacement is about 8lbs I think, I started off with the Solent Hull from Metcalf Mouldings.

http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3755.0

I have a 3.5 inch Maccsteam boiler.


Looking at Nicks comprehensive (phew) post, I think I'll go for the largest prop I can fit which is probably the 2441, 2.4 inch dia. I'll make up for the l;ack of dia by going four blade, will keep everyone posted, I'm away at work for a fortnight.
Prop Shop make dedicated steam props which are of larger pitch than a normal electric type prop.
Andy



Assuming that the 42" you have provided for the length of you boat is at it's water line, the hull speed should be roughly about 2.89 MPH.

Using a 4.1" pitch prop allowing for 15% slip, your engine rpm's should be about 875rpm at the 2.89mph hull speed.

With smaller diameter props the actual slip experienced can be a bit more than 15% so at the same hull speed, factoring in the same 4.1" pitched prop and allowing for 25% slip your final engine rpm's should be in the neighborhood of 1000rev's.

There is much more comprehensive math and methods that can be implemented if you really want to get really far down the rabbit hole for properly sizing a prop for a particular engine, boiler and hull combination. The formulas I provided above are meant to be a quick summary to solve most people's needs and get them in the ball park without needing a PHD. It's difficult to completely sum up all the science of boat hulls, engines, boilers and propellers into a nice neat tidy formula but this is about as close as one can get with out scaring off folks.

Mo,

Of the Raboesch props the "D" types look to be suited best for steam but after reviewing the pitch choices they have, most of their props look to be almost square or close to 1:1. This is fine but your final engine rpm's may be increased. Harbor Models in the Los Angeles area of California stocks Prop Shop propellers. No waiting period for most sizes.




I notice that there was a few mentions of Anton. I strongly recommend the Anton engines to anyone looking for a slide valve or piston valved engine. The Anton engines are very high quality and run very smoothly. Be patient with their delivery times because it's only one man working his backside off doing all the machining, welding, painting and assembling of everything. His engines are worth the waiting period and more importantly it's worth keeping him in business.
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malcolmbeak

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Re: TRV1A Prop size.
« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2010, 08:51:11 am »

I'm a bit surprised at the low slip figures that Nick quotes. That aside it's all interesting stuff. You may be interested in an article that appeared in Model Boats in the August 1992 edition on matching engine, boiler and prop sizes. Unfortunately when the scans for the article are reduced in size to show here they are rather indistinct. However if you go to the Paddleducks site then to Downloads; Steam Engine Plans and Articles, on the second page you can find the article. Just one point, on the second page there is a graph of prop diameter against engine capacity with a simple formula shown below. The power to which the prop dia is raised is unreadable - it should be cubed. In order to download you need to be a member of Paddleducks and possibly have made a post or two - I can't remember.

Malcolm
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derekwarner

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Re: TRV1A Prop size.
« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2010, 10:15:21 am »

Thankyou Malcom..........I am sure our Eddy Mathews & current moderators are pleased to hear that the PD web site has been acknowledged as having a technically sound  knowledge based library  :-)).....Derek
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Gyula

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Re: TRV1A Prop size.
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2010, 01:50:54 pm »

Yes Malcom, it is cubed.
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mogogear

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Re: TRV1A Prop size.
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2010, 05:16:27 pm »

Thanks again Nick..I will sure take your advice... I will be running two props on my 50" hull. Counter rotating and my first gearbox i have made up ( because of gearing I have) is 3:1...so a 1000 rpm will only deliver 333 rpm on each prop...should I be worried?

The gear reduction should help on the stated lower power the Graham has but I hope that this reduced rpm isn't a deal breaker {:-{

I was looking at twin 2.2" 3 or 4 blades with the same 2.3" pitch...)
BTW  I will go check out Harbor also-
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Albion

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Re: TRV1A Prop size.
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2010, 01:15:44 am »

To keep up the spirit of clarifying small mysteries to me in the world of Prop's...


Only because Prop shop props through Loyalhanna are shown to be a possible 6 month wait time --I looked at the other options..

    RABOESCH PROPS uses a delineation of "A" type and "D" type 3 blade props?? Blade shape? and which type is better suited to steam application if either is suited ... ?

Thanks
Order directly with Prop shop, they do ship overseas.
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andywright

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Re: TRV1A Prop size.
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2010, 09:21:57 pm »

I have never waited more than a week for a prop shop prop,
sent from my mobile phone.
Andy
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MichaelK

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Re: TRV1A Prop size.
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2010, 09:40:50 am »

Hi
I'm building a Wide-a-Wake (at a smaller size) powered by a TVR1A :-)
Just as mogogear said in a previous post, I'll have to ponder the information.!!!!! :-))
Saying that, this seems to be a fairly simple explanation to a seemingly complex question. ;)
Thank you folks on the forum. :-))

Mick
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