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Author Topic: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!  (Read 17837 times)

woody_294

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46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« on: October 14, 2010, 11:36:11 pm »

Ok, my dad has this boat:



And what we'd like to do is put twin electric motors in her, with a rudder for each. The original design is a single motor and rudder which have never been installed, it's half finished my dad had it given to him by the man next door as he got too old to finish it and he wasn't well. It's something for my dad to do as he's homebound nowadays.

I'm kinda getting the hang of what I need after lots of googling and a couple of questions but I still need some help with the planning. I have no idea what kind of motors I'm going to need, and wether I'll need an ESC per motor as we want the motors controlled to slow on turn. I'm not entirely sure on how to go mixing the signals either.

would like to have reverse for stopping as neither of us will be great I suspect at controlling her, so I want the controls as easy as possible, hence the mixing. I suppose I really need the help in selecting components.

Thanks for reading!

P.S. I'm an electrical engineer and dad's a retired mechanical one, so feel free to go crazy about electronics to me, but I'm not the greatest on boat terms, although I am learning, and I know how to search!
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ACTion

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2010, 08:14:08 am »

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woody_294

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2010, 09:42:12 am »

Nice bit of kit there ACTion, pretty much does all my thinking for me! I was thinking about making my own circuitry for this but now I'm thinking otherwise.

Can anyone recommend some motors for this? I was thinking maybe a couple of stock 400s or maybe a little larger. Would these be sufficient to put it at around 4-6 knots? Is this a little fast for this boat?

I need to get a ball park figure to my dad for a price for this build so he can yea/nay it.
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ACTion

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2010, 10:02:14 am »

PM sent.
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kiwimodeller

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2010, 10:28:56 am »

I cannot see why you need to fit two motors, two rudders and all the other complications such as mixers when the boat will perform extremely well with the single motor setup it was designed for. I have an identical Sea Queen which was given to me for the same reason, the elderly owner had not finished it in over twenty years. I managed to get it going and he saw it run before he passed away which was good. I used the original 1960 Taycol motor with modern R C gear. I am not suggesting you do the same as it takes a bit of effort to get it all working and suppressed but there are plenty of modern motors which would push her along far better than the old one and she will carry a big 12 volt sealed lead acid battery which will give hours of run time. Even with the 12v 7AH battery I still had to add lead but she puts up a lovely bow wave. Keep it simple and reliable. Cheers, Ian.
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woody_294

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2010, 10:40:07 am »

Thanks Ian, I've been thinking about that. I think my dad really wants the twin motors and rudders because it's a bit of a project for him. I guess I'll have to price up a dual and single build and then show him some numbers and see how he takes it, I have a funny feeling he may be surprised when I show him how much the dual setup is!

But then again if it's easy then its not usually as fun!! I'll probably read that after several hours failing miserably at getting it done and think "I am an idiot!"

It hasn't come with any running gear at all afaik so i'll have to source parts either way. Just as a thought, as you have a sea queen, I've been doing some measurements from photos, does a 440mm prop shaft sound about right?

*Edit* I should say that it's only half built at this point, half of the hull off and no painting done :)
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HS93 (RIP)

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2010, 02:53:08 pm »

have a look at this on the fire boat web site, it's a sea Queen with a single brushless motor,brushless motors are more efficient , so longer run time.there are a few sea queens on there and if you look at theposts you will sea what motor set up they are using, also look at red181 s huntsman from the same era similar size and weight again brushless.


http://modelfireboats.com/videogallery/

Huntsman
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=21584.0

peter

in case you cannot view it as you may not be a member

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSmuYujPobQ&feature=player_embedded
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dodgy geezer

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2010, 03:41:21 pm »

I cannot see why you need to fit two motors, two rudders and all the other complications....

I echo kiwimodeller's concern, since the boat is designed for a single propshaft passing through and supported by the keel. If you want to have two you will need to add quite a bit of local skin stiffening to the base of the hull, and arrange for structural support for the prop shafts as they will be unsupported in their new positions. All this can be done (though it would have been easier at build time!) but it may be tricky to get the propshafts truly in line without any pre-existing support structure to act as a reference point...
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woody_294

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2010, 04:34:54 pm »

Thanks for the links Peter, seems no-one else is running 2 motors on one of these, that I have seen. Maybe there's a very good reason for that!

Those guys seem to be getting a pretty good speed from a single 800 or such.

I know what you mean geezer. I'm not up to putting this point across strongly to my dad, seems he's quite set on two motors/rudders. The bill racks up to about £160 at the moment so I'll see how he takes it. I don't doubt my dad's ability to make it anew for two motors, I've been looking quite closely at photos of the frame and I feel it wouldn't be too hard to create some new framework for the shafts and motors.

I was wondering about the planing section of the lower hull though, would it need to be flat between the props/rudders to make it work, with a new keel line for each motor, if that makes sense (need to learn more boat terms!)





It's in a similar state to the top photo presently.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2010, 04:53:51 pm »

The hull shape was designed for a single screw so might not perform so well with twins. Also, with all that framing inside just where you would need to install the twin shafts it looks like major surgery would be needed!

Colin
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dodgy geezer

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2010, 04:57:51 pm »

... I don't doubt my dad's ability to make it anew for two motors, I've been looking quite closely at photos of the frame and I feel it wouldn't be too hard to create some new framework for the shafts and motors...

It's certainly possible - I suspect it may be a fair bit of work to ensure that everything is true, however....


I was wondering about the planing section of the lower hull though, would it need to be flat between the props/rudders to make it work, with a new keel line for each motor, if that makes sense (need to learn more boat terms!)

That comment makes me wonder how a twin-propped Sea Queen would handle in turns. You might find that as she banks air gets dragged into the outer propeller - the hull shape is intended to roll in turns...
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woody_294

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2010, 06:24:03 pm »

Yeah it doesn't look like a small job Colin, I'm gathering momentum for a single prop pitch, the price is over £200 now!

That is a very good point, guess I'll have to watch some videos back and see how she rolls.

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HS93 (RIP)

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2010, 06:39:23 pm »

 woody_294   I think you will find that the boats in the videos are brushless motors not 800 it is a big boat to get moving , the huntsman is a geared brushless motor defiantly as I helped fit it. brushless it not that expensive the motor is about £29 and the speed controller about the same from Giant cod    http://www.giantcod.co.uk/

peter
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PMK

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2010, 08:10:39 pm »

PeeWee,
GiantCod are showing five pages of brushless motors - several motors of which are around the £30.00'ish price. If it's not too much agro, could you be a cherub and give the make/mode/part number of the particular motor which you used, pse? Also, ditto info. for the speed controller?

Top thanks.
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woody_294

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2010, 09:30:41 pm »

PeeWee,
GiantCod are showing five pages of brushless motors - several motors of which are around the £30.00'ish price. If it's not too much agro, could you be a cherub and give the make/mode/part number of the particular motor which you used, pse? Also, ditto info. for the speed controller?

Top thanks.

+1 I'd like to know which motor too, I've been pointed to a huntsman of yours from another site Peter! Looks like it goes like stink :)
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HS93 (RIP)

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2010, 12:34:30 am »

+1 I'd like to know which motor too, I've been pointed to a huntsman of yours from another site Peter! Looks like it goes like stink :)

OK ill get the info on the motor, the Huntsman is not mine ,it's far to nice for one of my boats it's Paul RED181 s, I just helped a bit with the drive train he did all the hard work to make it so nice.


Peter
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HS93 (RIP)

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2010, 01:20:47 pm »

the boat in video has a 50/65 380kv  65mm prop 4 blades running on 25v he just uses a 80 amp speed controller their are lots to choose from he did not give me the details of that I hope it helps Ill ask red181 to post his info for the Huntsman.

Peter
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woody_294

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2010, 02:26:49 pm »

Thanks Peter, I showed my dad the video of that huntsman to convince him that he'd get enough manoeuvrability and speed from a single prop and rudder.

That does help, I was going to put a 7.2v system in! Maybe not... would I be able to get anything like that performance from a 12v motor?
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woody_294

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2010, 11:42:50 pm »

Am I right in thinking that that's an Aeroplane motor? Would I need watercooling? It looks like it has an 8mm shaft too, not a problem just thinking. Would I be able to run this off 2 12v lead acid batteries with the right diodes and such??

Also, is the 2.4kg of extra weight from 2 of these 4.5Ah batteries going to be a problem?


Andy
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HS93 (RIP)

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2010, 12:46:13 am »

the Sea Queen can probably handle the weight without a problem, BUT the lead acid batteries may not be able to handle the drain from the motors if you wanted fast runs, you can not pull the current out of lead acid batteries  very fast.
weight will also slow it down the huntsman all up weight in the link is about 5 kg so you need to think about weight but if you just want to sail around with the od blast you should be ok , keep the batteries as low as you  can and at first make the so you can move them about to get a good balance.

Peter
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woody_294

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2010, 01:08:09 pm »

Thanks Peter, I guess the max constant you can pull from LAcid batteries is about 20Amps? In that case is there a way to run this motor much slower and use less amps? I am confusing myself here now. The motor says max efficiency at around 18-45A and at the lowest I'm looking at around only 15 minutes of run time on about 4Ah.

I would really like to get at least half an hour of run time without spending a fortune on batteries. An hour would be nice if I could find a setup that worked on LAcids, being as this boat is big I'd like to use them for the Ah/£.

I need to learn about this. Any advice would be great as I go and try to learn all about motors!

I'd like a motor that will make this thing shift nicely (not super fast but still fun) and draw about 10A, am I asking too much??

*Edit* I read somewhere that on a planing hull the centre of gravity should be around 1/3 from the rear, is this true?
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woody_294

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2010, 06:43:43 pm »

Apologies for double post, won't let me edit the last :D

Ok! After lots of reading threads on here, and some other bits and pieces, I am slowly getting my head around this. For all intents and purposes I'm looking to get the a simliar, if not better performance to an MFA 850 Torpedo from a brushless motor, because brushless motors are more efficent, which helps me out in wanting to make the batteries last longer for better performance.

I've think I'm after about an 800kv brushless for 12v, giving me the max of about 10k rpm of the torpedo. What I can't figure out is why the brushless motors I look at around the 40 Amp mark! What Amps would this pull whilst doing 10k rpm pushing the Sea Queen through the water on say, the stock prop, which is a 65mm three bladed brass one.

[rant]

On a side note Wesbourne Models reckon that this motor is ideal for the sea queen, and frankly it looks like a monster and would last not much time at all on a lot of batteries. So WHY!? is this comparable to the Torpedo 850? I am totally lost on this front. Should I be looking to FILL this boat with Ni-Mh or Li-Po batteries to last an hour with all this new motor technology? [/rant]

I am fairly sure that with time and revision, motor technology has not gotten worse, so it MUST be that I am understanding this all wrong, please help!!
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Perkasaman2

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2010, 10:45:00 pm »

Hi woody294, the 850 torpedo is a high torque 5 pole brushed motor. It's true that if you found an equivalent brushless motor you could probably expect +30%, however, there is an upgrade brushed 12 pole  900 motor which can offer very  high torque performance without drawing huge amps from your batteries. I refer to the MMB 900 and it may be ideal for your single prop setup and hull size. Research the link below and judge for yourself.

http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=16941.0

http://www.marksmodelbits.com/
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HS93 (RIP)

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2010, 11:11:55 pm »

If you want run time and a bit of speed run brushless by the way the person in the link now seems to run brushless in his boats, if run one of them they seem to need water cooling to stop them getting to hot.and I think you said you wanted to keep it simple.

Peter
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woody_294

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2010, 01:03:46 pm »

Thanks Perkasaman! I do like the look of that 900, would be nice to start out in 12v and maybe do 18-24 at a later date too, what with us being rc boat amateurs. Any idea what amp ESC I would need with this unit? It doesn't say a lot about it on the site.

Would it get the boat to plane on a 65mm prop on 12v? Or would I need more volts?

Can I use Lead Acid batteries with it?

Yeah I am leaning to wards brushless very much Peter, only I'm still a little confused to to finding an equivalent motor to the 850 or the 900 :)

I'm not too worried about complicating the build, just the controls I needed to keep simple :)
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