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Author Topic: British S Class  (Read 66598 times)

TomP

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #50 on: June 08, 2012, 09:41:45 pm »

Fuel pumps for injected engines are generally roller type where the rollers turn in a chamber and compress as they turn to force the fluid out and it is due to the shape of the chamber only work in 1 direction and usually of metal construction and without fuel to lubricate the parts as Andy says you will find they will corrode very quickly
 
Ah I see, Ive taken the old pipes off and it looks like the turbine on the front of a jet engine inside, lots of very small blades which are not angled in any direction if you understand what I mean. I will try get a picture of it onto here. Will mess around over the weekend see what I can do with it if anything take on board about the corrosion see what happens to it
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spooksgone

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #51 on: June 09, 2012, 12:46:35 pm »

Hi there Tomp. I have posted the water pump to you today, it should be with you about Thursday. I had to send it second class, as it cost me a small fortune to send the photo's of u 505 over to the states!!! He should be quiet happy when he opens the packet though. Happy to help.
Phil
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TomP

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #52 on: June 12, 2012, 12:14:03 pm »

Hi there Tomp. I have posted the water pump to you today, it should be with you about Thursday. I had to send it second class, as it cost me a small fortune to send the photo's of u 505 over to the states!!! He should be quiet happy when he opens the packet though. Happy to help.
Phil
Hi Phil, Pump arrived today many thanks really appreciate the help Tom

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Subculture

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #53 on: June 12, 2012, 07:37:48 pm »

No excuses now then!

Be interesting to know if those nautilus pumps will pump against a vacuum. The spec says they'll pump up to about one atmosphere (max). I use a 500ml pop bottle to test out pumps. They take pressure well and are quick and easy to adapt. I just drill a hole in the cap, hot glue in a piece of metal tubing and attach a piece of pipe which is then connected to the pump being tested.
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TomP

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #54 on: June 12, 2012, 09:33:06 pm »

No excuses now then!

Be interesting to know if those nautilus pumps will pump against a vacuum. The spec says they'll pump up to about one atmosphere (max). I use a 500ml pop bottle to test out pumps. They take pressure well and are quick and easy to adapt. I just drill a hole in the cap, hot glue in a piece of metal tubing and attach a piece of pipe which is then connected to the pump being tested.
Great minds think alike, just waiting for the glue to dry. Quick question looking into the size of the WTC if I made the whole thing 1 meter long and the center section the sealed part which holds the water, how big would it have to be? Is there a calculation to use to work it out or just trial and error also do I need to know the weight of the sub or WTC to work it all out.
Nearly finished the conning tower, the brass decks are glued down and drilled out all the holes, need to fill the edges to the deck and then it’s down to the running gear. Getting there made all the items in the conning tower removable along with the tower itself make it easier to store and transport. Oh found out the fuel pump I have uses a turbine not the rollers but has a check valve that’s why it won’t pump in reverse but now I have the pump kindly donated by Spooksgone (Phil) Thank you everyone for all your help really enjoying building this sub can't wait to get it running.
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spooksgone

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #55 on: June 13, 2012, 07:45:44 am »

Any time, happy to help.
Phil
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Subculture

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #56 on: June 13, 2012, 09:22:32 am »

Working out ballast tank volume is a frequently asked question. The simplest way is to ask someone with the same model what volume their tank is, or perhaps Bob at OTW can give you some pointers, as they supply a wtc/module for this boat. I would think it will be somewhere in the region of 1.5 litres, but that's just an estimate.

Using weight is a bad idea for calculating ballast tanks. You need to think about displacement.

For a start it's difficult to weigh just part of your model, unless it happens to conveniently split right at the required surfaced waterline. Secondly most materials used in model submarine construction are denser than water e.g GRP, metals etc. Thus if you use weight as your method, you will tend to wind up with a ballast tank larger than required, which is better than it being too small. But if it's a big margin of error, that means longer filling times, more power used etc. Conversely, if the model is made from wood, the tank will likely be too small-, and the boat will not make a scale waterline.

Many thermoplastics like ABS , polystyrene, PMMA etc. tend to be about the same density as water. If your model is constructed from one of these, and the shape is relatively straightforward e.g. a cylinder then you can probably work out the volume of the tank using a bit of maths.

However a boat like the S-class is not a simple shape, plus it uses mixed media- brass decks and hand laid GRP, the latter tends to have a variable thickness owing to the nature of construction, which complicates matters further, and brass is more than eight times the density of water!

The most accurate way to find out the right volume of tank for this boat (and just about any other sub) is by empirical means.

Build the boat up, sans paint etc.

Put it in a test tank, and being denser than water it will sink. Add buoyancy- polystyrene foam is the best material to use. You will need to make a cradle of some sort to keep all the foam in place. This can also be made from foam, as it doesn't need to be super strong, but you should ballast it down so that it is neutrally buoyant, else it will skew your result.

When the boat is neutrally buoyant. e.g the boat sits just on or below the water surface, add more buoyancy below the waterline until the desired waterline is reached.

When you reach that point, remove the foam used to get the boat from neutral buoyancy to surface trim, work out it's volume- easiest if you cut the foam in uniform blocks e.g. rectangles. Increase that figure by 15-20% and you have the ballast tank volume required. The extra margin allows for differences in water temperature, extra volume added from applying paint finishes, and also gives you the ability to statically dive the boat by producing a little down thrust.

All this assumes that the WTC sits below the waterline with the boat surfaced.

Once you know the volume, you then need to decide what sort of ballast system you are going to adopt, as this dictates the size of tank needed. In your case we know you are going for a water pump based system. If you are going to be using the nautilus pump, then that rules out a sealed tank, as these pumps can only make 15 psi max, and that will only half fill the tank. With a 100mm diameter cylinder the tank would need to be over 43cm long assuming 1.5 litre volume, and that would pose stability problems I think.

You could go for the OTW type system which vents into the dry space, but I would advise some sort of sensing to ensure the pump doesn't overfill the tank and flood your module. This could be a simple float switch if you don't fancy the electronic probe system.

Another system would be to pump into a vented tank to get the boat to decks awash, then use a smaller trim tank (mounted inside the main ballast tank) which could use any type of ballast system to take the boat fully under. This more accurately reflects fullsize practice.

There are other variations on this theme.

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TomP

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #57 on: June 14, 2012, 10:34:00 am »

Thank you Subculture, need to get building then so I can start on this! Because I'm going to try use the pump Phil has given me I decided to take the fuel pump apart see how it is made etc, majority of the parts are plastic and it looks like it’s a combination of a turbine and roller type pump, the other thing I was quite surprised about is that the fuel actually passes over the armature and the brushes. It does have a check valve in the end that’s why it wouldn’t pump backwards the pump is rather simple but effective I suppose.


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Subculture

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #58 on: June 14, 2012, 02:31:24 pm »

That pump has seen a fair bit of action judging by the wear on the commutator. I think they run the fuel through the pump to keep it cool. There is no risk of ignition from commutator arching because there is an absence of air. Anyway you can see quite a few of the parts are made from steel and alumnium- not a great combination for pumping water.
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TomP

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #59 on: June 19, 2012, 03:16:50 pm »

Conning tower awaiting a wheel to finish, working on the top casing now fitting escape hatches and torpedo loading tube etc drilled loads of holes fed up of drilling holes in fibre glass >>:-(




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spooksgone

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #60 on: June 20, 2012, 02:26:02 pm »

That's looking good Tomp. How much longer do you think it is going to take then? I will love to come and watch you sail it.
Phil
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TomP

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #61 on: June 21, 2012, 08:47:08 am »

Thank you Phil, well I'm kind of cheating I started drilling and filing the flood holes on the casing but they are all over the place so I'm having the flood holes cut out of plasticard. I'm hoping this will make them all uniform and of the same size also this will save a fair bit of weight as I can cut away a large amount of fibre glass. These should arrive next week sometime so I can finish that then i'ts onto the running gear and that's what is going to take the longest as I will need to save for a few bits. My aim has been to finish it this year we will see hopefully Santa will be generous this year!! I will have the sub running soon hopefully but will just be surface runner, I only have a 2 chanel radio at the moment and I want to mix both props while turning as i'ts a long boat and only have a small pond, otherwise it will prob look like a scene out of Austin Powers, Backward forward backward forward! So will be saving for a new radio and speed controller etc. I will have the majority of items in place within the WTC just won't work for a little while. Tom
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Subculture

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #62 on: June 21, 2012, 10:58:58 am »

Don't OTW supply a photoetched stencil for the slots like they do for some of their other kits e.g. Type VII and Surcouf?
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spooksgone

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #63 on: June 21, 2012, 02:42:59 pm »

Hi Tomp. Have you brought the mixer switch yet? I have a brand new Hunter systems mixer switch, still in the box, with the destructions.  I know it will do what you want it too, as I had one of these in my type 7c u boat a few years back. Let me know if you want it, no charge. As for the radio, there must be some one out there who has a spare 4 channel radio sitting idle.
Cheers
Phil

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TomP

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #64 on: June 21, 2012, 08:44:12 pm »

Don't OTW supply a photoetched stencil for the slots like they do for some of their other kits e.g. Type VII and Surcouf?
Yeah there are few stainless steel ones supplied, I caused the problem by not securing them in place tight enough so they moved, next problem was my Dremel bit started opening up the stencil slightly so the holes started getting larger so I got angry with myself for being so careless and came up with the idea of having them laser cut out of plasticard. Will wait and see what it turns out like
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Subculture

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #65 on: June 22, 2012, 07:46:09 pm »

Sounds like you're going to hard with the dremel. I find glue guns are handy for tacking things like that in place. Then just release with a sharp knife .
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TomP

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #66 on: June 26, 2012, 10:56:03 am »

Sounds like you're going to hard with the dremel. I find glue guns are handy for tacking things like that in place. Then just release with a sharp knife .
Yeah I rushed it and now kick myself for not taking more time. Got my cut outs today 2 types 1 done by water cutting and the other by laser. The water cut ones need a little more cleaning up than the laser cut ones but both are to the sizes I required really pleased with them. Got both done as a comparison really as they cost the same just wanted to see the differences between them.





Phil I will buy the mixer off you if you don’t require it you have been kind enough already, I bought a load of bits in a box off Ebay and found a Mtroniks mixer in there but It’s for tank steering so no good for what I want. Also received a few parts for the WTC just need some time to work on it now.
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spooksgone

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #67 on: June 26, 2012, 01:32:10 pm »

Hi all. I will post you the mixer when I can. I don't want any thing for it. Tassie48 has sent me loads of quality stuff from Austrailia for my next project for free, I'm happy to pay it forward. I used to cut 10 slot's out in an evening, and then move on to nicer job's. That way the "chore" was made a lot easier.
Cheers
Phil
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spooksgone

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #68 on: June 27, 2012, 07:55:15 pm »

Mixer switch sent,, it should be with you by Wednesday.
Cheers
Phil
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TomP

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #69 on: June 28, 2012, 08:46:31 pm »

The sub so far, top casing now secured to lower using 5mm stainless steel rod so it can be removed anytime, starting to fix the flood holes



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salmon

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #70 on: June 30, 2012, 04:31:43 am »

That is one gorgeous sub. I like the way your flood holes came out.
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TomP

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #71 on: July 14, 2012, 07:28:27 pm »

Thank you the kind comment OTW Designs do make a fantastic looking sub.

Spent a few hours on it today, I decided to remove the weld lines as I will try put these on when airbrushing the sub. I have also started putting on the flood holes I had made they look great really really pleased with them.







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salmon

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #72 on: July 15, 2012, 07:28:17 am »

Ah, I see said the blind man......Those look EVEN better!
HAve you figured out a paint scheme for her?
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TomP

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #73 on: July 20, 2012, 11:05:24 pm »

Hi Salmon, Yeah I have been basing this on HMS Stonehenge as best as I can.  As you can see in this picture that's what I'm going to aim to do dark grey deck, light grey sides and dark grey hull.



Got a question I need help with, Started drawing the WTC and checking it will fit in the sub, I was thinking of using stainless steel rods externally like the Sheerline module but I can't fit it into the sub the larger end cap discs will hit the casing. So they will have to go internal but how do I seal these? also how do I seal this disc to the tube tried a few places asking about an O ring or flat seal, they were not interested in helping. Anyone know of somewhere that might be more helpful?

I have got a choice of either 100mm diameter tube or 120mm, I think I'm going to struggle fitting both motors side by side in the 100mm but will try. 

Going to put the batteries inside the WTC as there will be not a lot of room under the WTC if I have to keep it as low as possible in the sub

Again thank you for any help Tom

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Subculture

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #74 on: July 21, 2012, 02:23:33 pm »

Gnerally o-rings are used for sealing endcaps. Sheerline use a custom flat seal, not sure if there is any advantage in those, I've always found o-rings work fine, and they're easy to get hold of. There are two ways of sealing and endcap with an o-ring, radial compression and axial compression.

Radial compression seals on the inside of the tube, the advantage is that the the seal is compressed without any requirment for rods to pinch up the caps. The disadvantage can be the tubing itself- often far from perfectly round on the inside, so you can get leaks if you're not careful. This is especially the case with larger diameter tubing. Examples of commercial WTC's with axial compression are Caswell Sub Drivers and Ron Perrot's piston tank WTC's

Axial compression seals up against the end of the tube. This is usually machined for a nice flat edge. This is how Sheerline and OTW seal their modules, OTW use o-rings, Sheerline do their own thing with seals as mentioned eariler.

You need rods to compress the seals, three is plenty although some use four. To seal the ends of if running internally, you can use o-rings again or flat rubber washers e.g. tap washers. Not that you will need capped nuts to avoid water working it 's way past the seals via capilliary reaction. OTW use very nice custom machined knurled nuts. A cheaper and no less effective alternative is to use brass domed nuts (try screwfix) with washers soldered on the end, which hep spread the load, and give a nice flat surface for the seal to compress against.

For o-rings you can try the following suppliers. Most use either Nitrile or silicone The latter are softer, but a little more fragile.

http://www.simplybearings.co.uk

http://www.polymax.co.uk

I would recommend  the following sizes of o-ring seal (o-rings are always specified by internal diameter)-

100mm diameter tubing radial compression- 90mm diameter 3mm thick
100mm diameter tubing axial compression-  95-96mm diameter 3mm thick

120mm diameter tubing radial compression- 108mm diameter 3mm thick
120mm diameter tubing axial compression-  114mm diameter 3mm thick

Note that if you choose radial compression, you will need to machine a groove into the endcap. This groove should be toleranced to allow the o-ring to extrude as it is squeezed, as the rubber will not compress. The amount of squeeze can be from 15-30% of o-ring thickness, I recommend the lower figure, and personally aim for 15-20%. Size to the following for both tube sizes-

Groove width 3.7-4mm, depth 2.1-2.5mm

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