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[bluebird]

Martin, did you remove all the carbon off the edge of the frames before you applied the glue?  If you can get a knife in and scrape the frames where the glue hasnt taken, i.e. if you can clean them up a bit to remove the carbon deposits off the laser burning; then reapply the glue.    If you are using PVA glue you can put a drop of superglue in as well.

aye
john e
bluebird

[Martin (Admin)]

Yes the edges were sanded down a little to allow for the hull shape.
I'm just curious as it's just in one place!

Wood, planking..... it'll never catch on! 

[Daryl]

interesting bag of bits Martin, very similar to the Hachette offer which comes with battery Tx and Rx. Did you by chance do a price comparison with the Hachette offer listed earlier or with the same parts bought through Howes or Westbournes. This does raise an interesting question, you say you are building this by the instructions, that would imply using the Hachette R/C gear would it not?

You do know don't you that Amati hasn't tested their version in the wet stuff yet. that's providing it floats with what is to come

On the glue problem, did you glue the edges as the instructions state in issue 12 onwards, I have used Evostick weather resistant and they have not moved at all. I am now waiting for the post office to get back to work if the have water and deliver  parts 16 to ?( I live in Gloucester)

[Martin (Admin)]

Guess your right Daryl,  :-[
I'll build the wooden and resin bits the Hatchette way but I have a real thing about gearboxes in model boats!  >:(
"No need!"

I get some Evostick weather resistant this weekend.
Must say I'm surprised at the Deluxe Materials Aliphatic resin, doesn't seem that strong....

[Colin Bishop]

Must say I'm surprised at the Deluxe Materials Aliphatic resin, doesn't seem that strong....

I use Aliphatic a fair bit and find it OK but the surfaces have to be reasonably absorbent and the joint firmly clamped until dry to "weld" the wood together. Not tried that particular brand though.

[kendalboatsman]

Guess your right Daryl,  :-[
I

I get some Evostick weather resistant this weekend.

Hi Martin,

I always use the Water resistant Evostick Resin W for assembling furniture and making models. Pleased to say I have never had trouble with it not sticking.

Clive :)

[Down below]

My Motors have arrive from Marki53 & Germany!
Thanks Mark..... and you even get a bag of sweets!
How's that for service! 

All of what you show is readily available here in the UK and no need for gearboxes if you dont like them though I know for fact that Graupner themselves have specd the Hachette running gear for this model on Amati's behalf

What does puzzle me is that the Hachette RC pack contains the exact same Graupner motors & nylon props and very likely the same prop shafts plus a radio, battery/charger & Graupner ESC for £125, am curious to know what you paid for your bag of sweets....er goodies ???

If you had gone for the brass props and third motor it would at least have made some sense to the mod or maybe a third motor is OTT, even so am surprised that a guy with your model boat experience has gone for such a set-up via Germany :-\

It seems the benefit to what you have got there is having the motors pre-installed onto ply bearer's ???


Seems ludicrous to me to ship this stuff all the way from Germany as you could easily have thrown together the exact same components from within the UK at much less cost, hell of an expensive bag of sweeties


Your planking looks to have dry joints, quite often laser cut burns can dramaticaly reduce bonding and the cure to this sanding the brown residue away, I have used Aliphatic Resin for this build and have used waterproof Evostick in the past and no problems with either.

[Down below]

The note below will be of interest to all who incorporate a three motor design into this model and also change rudders for a scale size.

I have come across the posting below on the 'Die Graue Flotte' web forum in Germany, a number of letters have been posted in english which come from Sergio who is the chief designer at Amati, a snippet of which I thought would be of great interest is as follows:

"It could be very difficult to to insert a middle shaft, another reason is that in the middle of the model we have the main Keel (central) and if you fit something through this Keel the model will become very fragile.

The middle propeller of the RC model will be the same size as the other two, the three propellers and rudders of the static model will be different in size and position on the ship.

Please note that the main problem is to let the model run within a pool or a little lake, if the real rudder dimension and position is reproduced you may need a very big lake to turn your model.
For that reason and after several tests we found the right props and rudders for the RC model. The static model will look exactly like the pictures."

So basically the main point is that the chopping out of the model to accomodate a third motor will weaken it and also explains why they opted for a two motor design ::)

[mark_1984]

Hi Martin,  Are you sure that the rubber bands, or whatever you were using to hold the planks held them firmly against the frames.  If not then the join could very very weak.  That was the first thing that sprung to my mind.

Cheers
Mark

[mark_1984]

It might be worth giving the other planks a bit of a prod, just to see if there are any more weak joins.  Better find them now than half way across the lake

[Down below]

Amati's supa-dupa advice of the gauze bandage & PVA on the inner hull wont hold them

[Colin Bishop]

So basically the main point is that the chopping out of the model to accomodate a third motor will weaken it and also explains why they opted for a two motor design

An accepted way of allowing for a centre shaft on a model with a wood keel is to fit "doublers" each side along the length where the tube/shaft passes though the hull. As long as the doublers are thick enough you can then safely drill out the centre part and fit the tube. Once it is all securely glassed or filled in there will be no loss of strength. However, looking at the pictures of the partially completed model it appears that this might be difficult to retrofit as it should have been done before the frames were fitted. It may be possible to still do something though.

[Down below]

Thanks for that Collin and I agree totally, the advice seems to be do something rather than nothing

[Martin (Admin)]

I don't think I've paid over the odds at all !
it was what I wanted and it was a package deal and I don't have to go huntingaround for part numbers or worry about compatability and it was available when I wanted it.

I paid 60Euro for my motor pack which is less than I would have paid if I had bought the same items in England..... and don't forget the all important free bag or sweets and no hassle factor ( apart from British online banks don't know that Europe exists!  >:( )

Cost it out for yourselves.

2 x 1794 (Speed 400)
2 x 355.3 (Couplings)
3 x 2307.30L (Props)
3 x 2307.30   (Props)
2 x ? (Graupner Drive Shaft 160mm / 200mm)

I'm always trying to buy cheap solutions which sometimes work out but more often than not, not!
This is a tried and tested setup, I know the motors and a I know the shaft so I'm more than happy with the purchase.... 'but each to his own....'


Re: Planking.
I've had a bit of a poke around and it all seems secure.... but I didn't poke too hard to be honest!  ::)
I'm thinking of a liberal coat of PVA glue inside the hull or even Fibreglass or Epoxy resin..... anyone know what Hatchette say in later issues?

Re: Subscription.
Issues stopped again as I own money..... on a pre paid subscription?!?!?!  >:( >:(

[marki53]

and here the detailed prices:

drive set 1 euro (including shipping)
sweets 59 euro

cheers

markus

[Colin Bishop]

I'm thinking of a liberal coat of PVA glue inside the hull or even Fibreglass or Epoxy resin..... anyone know what Hatchette say in later issues?

Martin, if you coat indiscriminately all over the inside of the hull you may run into problems if wood to wood joints are needed later in the build. I think your best bet is to do what, Kayem I think it was, previously advised - fill in any gaps between the planks with a gap filling glue and run thin cyano along the joints which look reasonably well fitted together. You could also run thick cyano or, better, epoxy glue down the frame to plank joints on the inside of the hull (provided the planks are properly secured in position first). That way you should end up with a reasonably rigid shell that can be rubbed down on the outside to accept the second planking layer and is ready for grp or grp/resin reinforcement on the inside once you know where it is safe to apply it without prejudicing possible future fixings.

Just applying PVA glue on the inside of the hull won't help much at all - it's the gaps between the planks and the plank to frame joints that need to be reinforced. Don't worry, it isn't a write off - just needs a bit of extra work, that's all. 

[Martin (Admin)]

On another inspection the glue seemed to have come away from planks as opposed to the ribs.
I've already been around the ribs with extra PVA glue it was just that one area....  ???

But I'll wait to see what Hachette say before doing anything major.
 

[rem2007]

Hi everyone,
Well I'm taking sometime off sanding as I am waiting on my planking clamps through ebay. Apparently, Torbay doesnt exist in the rc modelling world as none of the local shops or websites stock these clamps. I've heard rumours that you will soon need a passport to get in and out of Devon.  I missed your discussion on glues, can anyone recommend a good wood glue for the planking, the jar issued in week one has worked so far but I anticipate the next few weeks to using much more.
PS any locals who go to Youngs Park are welcome.

[Down below]

Suggest you dont continue use the supplied wood glue if you are building the RC version of this kit, either use weatherproof Evostick wood glue or Alipahtic Resin, if you are building the static version then use standard PVA wood glue

[Down below]

Yes Martin 'each to there own' and I like to support UK model shop buisiness's where I can

[rem2007]

First stupid question, is aliphatic wood glue and resin the same thing?
 ::)

[Daryl]

Difficult to see how this is a tried and tested setup for this kit, Germany only had the bow piece in issue 43, they are on issue 47. Thats a bit quick to glue it and then state its tried and tested, for how long? I thought his kit was going on for 140 issues?

wouldn't it be a good idea to support local model shops where possible. Your list stated you used 3 graupner 2307.30L props and 3 2307.30 props that equals six, fast boat?

couplings   from George turner models     £4.50 x2   = £9
Graupner speed 400 from George turner models £6.45 x 2 = £12.90
shafts x 2 from Gerge turner models £4.50 = £9
3 props from George turner £2.50 each = £7.50
Total £38.40 + max £4 p+p
60 euros at the current excange rate equals £40

I think I know who I would support. But as you said each to their own

[Martin (Admin)]

OK, I concede the point.....

[Colin Bishop]

First stupid question, is aliphatic wood glue and resin the same thing?

"Resin" is a pretty wide term and can be applied to lots of things including the stuff they put in Greek wine to preserve it! Bit like Acrylic paints really, some are waterbased, some solvent based as others have discovered to their cost.

Aliphatic wood glue is a thinnish, usually waterproof fluid that permeates the fibres of the wood surfaces to be joined and then dries to form a very strong bond. It often has "quick grab" characteristics. Cascamite/Extramite is another type of resin which comes in a powder which is mixed with water to form a thin paste which is used to glue the joint together. Evostick is a PVA based wood glue (white glue) which comes in interior and water resistant varieties. It is advertised as waterproof but but I don't think this applies if the joint is immersed without protection (paint etc.) Aliphatic and PVA glues are water soluble when applied which allows any excess to be wiped off with a damp cloth. They are not much good at gap filling.

Epoxy and Polyester resins are syrupy liquids which harden by chemical  reaction when mixed with a catalyst. They come as glues or more "watery" versions which are used for laminating or sealing. They have good gap filling qualities.

I'm sure somebody else can provide a more detailed explanation which would be a good subject for Bluebird's new section.

[Down below]

First stupid question, is aliphatic wood glue and resin the same thing?
 ::)

Not a stupid question, it depends if you are talking about Resin in its own right?, if so then no most definately not the same, Resin is used in various guises and has lots of applications.

Aliphatic woodworking glue & Aliphatic Resin is the same thing.

Sorry Colin did'nt see your excellent reply

[Daryl]

Martin, what are you going to do with the third prop? glue it to the centre piece and put up witht he drag, drill a small hole and resin a stub in lace to attach it to or have a shaft hanging out the back end somewhere? or even miss it out altogether as Amati suggested in an e-mail to me

[HS93]

Before I start I am not building one ,but a way around it  if you are not fitting a motor is to fit the shaft and block the hole on the inside and only slide the prop and shortend shaft in when it's on dispay. so no drag.

Peter

[rem2007]

TGIF.....thank you all for your comments and lessons on glues and resins. It's been some time since I have done modelling and there are a few new terms and items out there. Well the weekend is upon us and I was told to expect my next 4 issues next week as well as my planking clamps by ebay.
So its off to footy practice with the little guy tomorrow and more sanding in preparation for blanking, by the looks of the weather.
Cheers again, Robert.
oh yeah, can anyone recommend a good hobby shop for rc boats near Torbay?

[marki53]

Difficult to see how this is a tried and tested setup for this kit, Germany only had the bow piece in issue 43, they are on issue 47. Thats a bit quick to glue it and then state its tried and tested, for how long? I thought his kit was going on for 140 issues?

wouldn't it be a good idea to support local model shops where possible. Your list stated you used 3 graupner 2307.30L props and 3 2307.30 props that equals six, fast boat?

couplings   from George turner models     £4.50 x2   = £9
Graupner speed 400 from George turner models £6.45 x 2 = £12.90
shafts x 2 from Gerge turner models £4.50 = £9
3 props from George turner £2.50 each = £7.50
Total £38.40 + max £4 p+p
60 euros at the current excange rate equals £40

I think I know who I would support. But as you said each to their own

as posted before, i already tested the drive on a lake, with my bismarck of course

i guess this one hour of running the ship was enough to test all components
________________________________________________________________

martin asked me for some spare props, so i sent him 3 additional props for free

i don't care for supporting local shops, i buy my items from where they're cheapest - even if this was a dealer from another country

if you add those stainless steel fastening screws for the motors in your calculation you'll notice that buyers receive a tested drive system for less cost than bought in the UK - delivered to your home.

i know who i'd support of i was offered this

cheers

markus

[Daryl]

How have you tested your hull on a lake you have only just received the bow, one of your postings on the other forum mentions you testing your hull, interestingly before Germany received the bow. What did you treat the hull with, all the pictures I have seen no protective coating was visable. You mention s/s screws Martin didn't, is this an attempt to justify the cost? The prices I quoted are from buisness who make a profit by selling to hobbists r/c equipment, I could tell you the average mark-up but I guess you know that allready.

Graupner props are readily available in the UK, but free samples are a good marketing tactic. Pictures of your test would be welcome, after all it would be nice to show your customers the finished working product. but I expect you didn't take a camera with you

[slewis]

Lets keep this civil chaps please .I am watching this thread closely

Shane

[marki53]

I've posted several times how i sealed the hull - so look for those posts and you can read for yourself what i used for sealing hint: it's a 'graupner' product

if you compare the 'color' from superstructure and hull you'll maybe notice a difference, guess which of them is sealed..



so her maiden voyage was no problem, even without bow part

justify the cost ??? - no need for that, i deliver all those parts for the same price (maybe less) than if you bought them yourself
good marketing tactic ??? - laughable, i just did him a favour with those spare props

my mark-up would be huge if my last name was 'graupner', but unfortunately i have to buy all those items myself from a model shop which already made profit from selling them

i guess you know that you cannot buy graupner items directly, in germany graupner parts can only purchased from model shops

Moderated - Martin
markus

[Daryl]

Moderated - Martin

You say the maiden voyage was no problem how can that be without the bow, the handling would be different to the completed model. Pictures would be nice.

I guess  the funds from the sales would come in handy, you have stated that the hachette supplied equipment is rubbish, if you look further up the page you will find it to be of excellent quality, yet you supply simillar equipment ??? ???

you have said you sealed the hull yet it is incomplete, wouldn't that make finishing it difficult, for further details of what we are going to get to finish the detail on the hull ask Amati or look at archive photos and compaire.

[marki53]

Handling with or without bow is the same, only the waves coming from the bow look a little different

i never said that the (graupner) parts hachette used are rubbish, it's just HOW they made a drive of it. look at the pics of their drive built in - this looks horrible

the sealing is sandable, so i won't have any problems gluing the shaft supports or other parts afterwards

that's the reason why i didn't paint the hull by now - this would make things more difficult.

[Martin (Admin)]

HI All !
Good weekend everybody?  ::)

I bought my motor set from marki53 because:
1. I don't like the Hachette motor setup (I wouldn't use it as is even if it was free).
2. I like the components and setup marki5353 offered and would have gone that route anyway.
3. I couldn't be bothered to go find the part numbers of the individual components & supplier myself, (I always mess up orders like that!)

I'm happy with marki53's motor setup. I know there will be oodles of extra power ("anti Duck speed!") as I've seen the motors setups that Ron Dean fits in similar size ships and he's always banging on about over powered models. We could start a whole new topic about "scale speed", "true speed", "transition time" or "relative scale speed", personally I prefer the "wake patten" reckoning, but that's just me......

It's a fair point to ask marki53 to show 'on the water' pictures or video with his setup if that helps.... over to you marki53
But it's also fair to say "buy or don't buy", Marki53 is only offering an opinion and a service , it's not compulsory or nuffink!

"Yous pays ya money & makes your choice!"

Martin.