Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length.

[brianB6]

At least the models will, hopefully, be available to display in the future.
Not like our National Trust that tried to sell them all, even though they did not belong to the Trust. 
Fortunatly several of the owners found out and their models were withdrawn from sale.   The new 'Seaworks' museum was able to purchase one or two but the rest went to private buyers and are now lost to the general public. 
I am sure that Seaworks would be happy to display any models with an Australian link but getting them here in one piece would be the problem. (plus they do not have that much money for postage )

[Philipsparker]

I think there are two strands of museum. Some like the NRM, Manchester Museum of Scienece & Industry, have directors who are enthusiasts for thier subject and it shows. While there will always be people who disagree with thier plans, you can see that they have a pasion for the subject.

Others, like the Motor Museum in Coventry, have directors who want to administer a museum and couldn't care what is in it. This shows too. (I know people who work in all these establishments and they have told me some interesting tales)

There is extra pressure nowadays to "entertain" the public. If the galleries are empty then can they really justify the subsidy from the Government to keep entry fees away ? As Colin said, the maratime gallery hasn't changed for 50 years, in fact it is almost a museum of a museum. Whenever I've been in there it has been a welcome respite from the crowds but unless you are an enthusiast, it's not going to engage your imagination. Liverpool on the other hand does a far better job.

The models aren't going to be destroyed so all this "future generations won't get the chance to see them" stuff is rubbish. There are lots of ways to display them too - maybe a 3D scan and an online vistual model might be more use to us now ? I have worked with museum staff who desperatly want to digitise artefacts to make them more available and preserve the originals, only lack of funds stops them. As others have shown, it's difficult to photograph the boats in the badly lit cases anyway and even then you have to get to London to do it.

I'm not as pessamistic as most about this. At the end of the day, every museum has to move with the time or it will be forced to close. If you really want to see a lot of model boat, go to a model boat show or one of the many museums around the country also displaying builders models. Or maybe, campain to set up an exhibition space specifically devoted to the art of the model boat. After all we have a museum of computing at Bletchley Park which is run by non-professionals, and model boating is a much bigger subject than just dusty models in cases. Maybe it is time we took up the torch ?

[Colin Bishop]

The models aren't going to be destroyed so all this "future generations won't get the chance to see them" stuff is rubbish.

I'm not quite so optimistic I'm afraid. The prospects of these models being put on public show once again is very remote. Having been kept in a particular environment for 50 years there will inevitably be damage when they are moved despite the best efforts of the museum to acclimatise them. Very few people will actually apply to see them in their storage locations and maybe 10-15 years down the line somebody will question just why all that expensive storage space is being devoted to stuff that nobody is interested in. Then there will be a decision to 'rationalise' the collections by weeding out those considered to be of the least interest and so it will go on until ultimately there is nothing left - that is how bureaucracy works.

If I want to see a lot of top class marine models then going to a model boat show simply doesn't cut it. Very few of the models will be of 'museum quality' or even close, the vast majority will be kits or relatively mediocre scratch built models which mo doubt give a lot of pleasure but are worthless as historical references. Many of these will be from the same very small range of subjects - I've lost count of the number of Bismarcks I have seen over the years.

Yes, there may well be other museums around the country displaying builders models - but for how long? They too have budget and space pressures, even more so than the big national museums.

I would have hoped that the Science Museum would have felt able to devote a smaller but more imaginatively presented amount of space to the ships and to rotate the displays every three years or so but it seems that they rather prefer the 'off with their heads' approach.

Colin

[Bowwave]

Colin whilst I agree in some respect with your less than optimistic view of the future of the “museum ship model” it is worth reflecting on the fact that all museums have vast quantities of artifacts in storage whether they be dinosaur bones , classical treasures or industrial artifacts and the  type of ship model presented in any museums is a form of industrial artifact and as such requires the custodians of the museum to provide not just space but the due care accorded  any artifact , as their relevance is no less important to future generations whether they be academia or the browsing public. From what I have experienced  I  am more optimistic about  the future of the museum ship model than I was 5 years ago as it is  incumbent upon the museums in general to be more enlightened on how they present and convey  what is  as much a part of human and industrial history as any other artifact.  
Bowwave

[Colin Bishop]

Well I do hope you are right Dave but everything does seem to come down to money in the end and obligations can be changed with the stroke of a pen -and often are! When I was preparing my MB article on Southampton Maritime Museum I was taken around their 'reserve collections' which really amounted to little more than a pile of stuff in a shed! Models just piled on top of one another willy nilly. The Chatham repository project is much more encouraging and I am hoping to do a follow up there fairly soon.

Colin

[Bowwave]

Referencing the gulf that exists between the industrial model and those built by the amateur model maker is real indeed and for good reason.  Yet both can be appreciated in equal measure but the reason for the industrial ship model seen in many museums through out the UK is based on the commercial hard headedness of the builders or owners of the full size vessels not on a desire to build as an enjoyable “hobby”. Yet the “industrial model”  can  in many respects offer a genuine glimpse into the past and probably the only glimpse of  the function and form of a piece of engineering from an age far removed from our own. Yet when examining these artifacts care has to be taken not to interpret what is visible as being what actually was. These artifacts whilst enormously valuable as a point of reference are not truly representative of the vessel they portray and for good reason as there existence was to impress or for scientific analysis  not to serve as a replica of the original vessel. Yet the paradox is many amateur ship models as Colin has intimated as having  no real historical value can in fact resemble the original vessel more closely than many seen in museums. So to dismiss the amateur model maker’s skill as not being relevant to the historical facts is perhaps missing the point.   Museum acquisition  policy differ from one museum to the other and over the years models built by the amateur, from all periods of time are gaining in relevance particularly those built by  individuals connected with a particular maritime activity, trade  or having some historical value , regardless of the “quality” of the model , it is what the model represents that is important to the museum . Visiting any model collection housed in a museum should be an experience to savor at many different levels but museums have a wider responsibility and as such many do endeavor even in these times of financial restraints to project their collections thoughtfully.
Bowwave

[Bowwave]

Well I do hope you are right Dave but everything does seem to come down to money in the end and obligations can be changed with the stroke of a pen -and often are! When I was preparing my MB article on Southampton Maritime Museum I was taken around their 'reserve collections' which really amounted to little more than a pile of stuff in a shed! Models just piled on top of one another willy nilly. The Chatham repository project is much more encouraging and I am hoping to do a follow up there fairly soon.

Colin

Unfortunately not all museums are "up to the mark” regarding storage facility for their ship model collections. Like you I am really encouraged by what is being done at Chatham , at least  models that  are sent to this facility will  have the best of care and "conservation"  will be high on the agenda as without that basic practical undertaking the relevance of the collection would diminish .   Thankfully due to long term strategies coupled with investment over the past 5 years the MMM has excellent storage and conservation facilities which ensure these fragile artifacts are preserved and if need be    remedial action taken before the problems become financially difficult .  I shall be looking forward to any future reviews of the work on the depository at Chatham so much depends on their success. 
Bowwave

[Colin Bishop]

So to dismiss the amateur model maker’s skill as not being relevant to the historical facts is perhaps missing the point.

That wasn't quite the point I was making although maybe I did not express myself too well. The best of the amateur models are up there with the best of the traditional museum ones and indeed may actually be better having been the subject of more intensive research - you won't very often, if ever, see plating or riveting depicted on shipbuilder model hulls for example and windows/portholes are frequently painted on. But some of the detail on those old models such as winches, windlasses, deck gear and how anchors were stored etc. is invaluable as very often there is no other readily available source of information.

But I still think it is true to say that perhaps the majority of models at model shows are conceived and built as practical working models and do not always incorporate a high degree of fragile detail. That is not to dismiss them, only to say that they do not provide the depth of information you will see on the top class models. And if you are using commonly available model making plans then the model will only be as good as the plans unless the builder has made a special effort to supplement the basic material.

You will see many attractive models at shows but quite a lot of them are what can be described as semi scale because that is all the builder intended them to be. Most (although certainly not all) of the models you will see in the major museums are to a consistently higher standard of construction - on the other hand they don't work though!  

Colin

[Martin (Admin)]

"
You will see many attractive models at shows but quite a lot of them are what can be described as semi scale because that is all the builder intended them to be. Most (although certainly not all) of the models you will see in the major museums are to a consistently higher standard of construction - on the other hand they don't work though! "


Nor do most of us don't have the resources (information, money, time, labour, skills) that the shipyard had!

[carlmt]

Check out Martin's Science Museum gallery in the main Mayhem website.............

A good record of what will be lost if ever I saw one!!

Will make a point of visiting it myself very soon before it goes.
Carl

[bikerdude666]

I was trying to keep out of this discussion but... Saying it's sad for future generations is a bit silly, if we are movin into a digital time, there are few young people who would appreciate the models to be honest I like making models and going to the lame and using them, but I wouldn't want to go and look at a load of old models in glass cases, as research tools for budding your own model, great! But you'll still be able to make an appointmen to go and view them. Quite simply there isn't enough interest in them, and the museum needs to get people through the doors, I'm sorry but if that means getting rid of some old models and filling the space with an exhibition about phones then so be it, as long as they're not gonna stack the boats up and set fire to them what's the problem? And before someone comes back with the argument, they're not going to be on show to the general public... The public doesn't care if it did they'd be going to see them now, the only 1's it affects are the 1's who like models, and they're the minority.

Times change, things change, you gotta change with it and get on with it.

[The long Build]

Have to disagree with that, if it was a case out get on with it then why do we have National Heritage, listed buildings who go out of there way to make it arkward to develope some type of houses to the point that some just say "'s o d' it" and let them crumble..so to be lost for good.

Also My son is in this digital age but he likes looking at models behind glass cases, I'm afraid that it is the parents who can not be bothered to take them to such places as its to much hassle to get them off the computers and gamimg machines..

[Colin Bishop]

I'm afraid that it is the parents who can not be bothered to take them to such places as its to much hassle to get them off the computers and gaming machines..

It was my parents plus Uncles and Grandfather who originally introduced me to the Kensington Museums as a very young lad and I have been entranced with their treasures ever since. Not only did I develop an interest in ships but also to a lesser extent natural history, dinosaurs (of course!) and geology as well plus most of the other things the Science Museum had to offer. These interests have given me a huge amount of enjoyment over the years and I think it is a great shame that many youngsters these days don't have the opportunity to have their imaginations captured in the same way.

However!

I have received a very nice response from the Curator of Transport at the Science Museum who assures me that it is also his very strong wish that at last some of the models should continue to be on public display although he is subject to a lot of other priorities and pressures. He has invited me to meet him sometime next month at the Museum to discuss these issues face to face and this is certainly something I will be taking up as an opportunity to represent the views of us who really value this wonderful collection of models. So maybe, just maybe, we might get a compromise if we don't ask for too much. A rotating display of some of the best models imaginatively presented would seem to be the most realistic way forward.

If I get any more information in the meantime then I will post it on here.

Colin

[carlmt]

Colin,

If the curator is disposed to the idea, I would be very very happy to act as custodian to one of the models in his collection, namely the Townsend Thoresen car ferry 'Spirit of Free Enterprise'.

As I am trying to get this Linkspan Models venture off the ground, I can give this model a very good home!!!!

I am deadly serious about this!!!  If you could put in a good word for me please?

Cheers
Carl

[Colin Bishop]

Carl,

I will keep this in mind but at the moment it's too early to say how things might turn out.

Colin

[Bowwave]

Like Colin it was my parents that introduced me to the delights of the ship model through regular visits to the Museum of Liverpool .Although damaged during the Second World War the Museum   managed to retain intact  many of its great ship models but if my memory serves me correct many of these models where arranged one case after the other, by today’s standards this would be wholly inadequate and rightly so. Yet for me as an impressionable youngster this allowed my imagination and passion for the ship model to take root.   This year alone I have  been in a position to  visit six  museums with a maritime content and discussed various aspects of the displays with the curators and visited several reserve collection. However the real impact of these visits is what comes over as genuine optimism for the future from both those directly involved in organizing and administering these collections and more importantly the viewing public. For any museum housing a ship model collection   it is not the ship model that is the core of the problem or  as some would have us believe the so called lack of interest by a younger generation, the problem would seem to lie with the museum.  Any good curator with support , imagination and  a budget to help can   use artifacts,  and  ship models is but one example  in a challenging way to inspire and generate  interest  regardless of gender or age. Such displays need not be the preserve of  digital interaction  where the ship model has little or no part .   To think otherwise would indeed consign the ship model and much more of our maritime heritage to  oblivion.
Bowwave

[brianB6]

While you are there, see if the Natural History Museum will return their part of the Canbourne meteorite to us.   
 Our local Council only has a tiny part of it. 

[Philipsparker]

I have received a very nice response from the Curator of Transport at the Science Museum who assures me that it is also his very strong wish that at last some of the models should continue to be on public display although he is subject to a lot of other priorities and pressures. He has invited me to meet him sometime next month at the Museum to discuss these issues face to face and this is certainly something I will be taking up as an opportunity to represent the views of us who really value this wonderful collection of models. So maybe, just maybe, we might get a compromise if we don't ask for too much. A rotating display of some of the best models imaginatively presented would seem to be the most realistic way forward.

This is excellent news. A rotating display of models will probably attract more people than having the same boats out for 50 years - it will be an incentive to visit to see what is out next. I bet there are models in store that haven't seen the light of day for years !

Perhaps you could suggest that while boats might be remote to most people's live, model boating would give them a new angle. Liverpool for example, has an excellent display of POW models. As a hobby we have loads of heritage (and not just some of the old blokes on Mayhem !) that dates back a long way. This all gives them a human interest angle, something that museums are looking for these days. Once you go down that route of course, you then have the stories of old sailors and perhaps more appropriatly, the development work and engineering that goes in to the model and real boats.

If you need any help, just shout. Could be a very interesting project !

[Colin Bishop]

We will just have to see what might be possible. I have offered support from the modelling community to make a case for the retention of a selection of exhibits and what might be done to stimulate visitor interest and assured him that the constraints on space are understood and that we would not have unrealistic expectations. I think he appreciates that I am not a time waster. I have sent him the article I did for Model Boats on the models at the Britannia Royal Naval  College to reinforce this.

So it's 'Watch this space' at themoment. I will report back on any progress.

Colin

[geoff p]

If it's any consolation at all, Britain is not the only place where museums are not held in the high esteem they deserve as custodians of our history.

A few years ago, whilst living in Phuket, Thailand, I visited the museum.  A very nice, single-story building but filled with ... nothing!  Unless you count brand-new posters for Bangkok city as being something.  What a crying shame.

But another day I was dragged, by friends, into a Wat (Buddhist temple) a few miles away, where I found an enormous, two-story barn.  The upstairs was laid-out like a museum, with thousands of artifacts in dust-covered display cases.  And not a label anywhere. 

I spent hours there trying to explain to my friends and to the monks what many of the farm implements were for.  This was difficult since my Thai is totally inadequate for technical terms but my attempts were greeted with enthusiasm.  Unfortunately, they don't have the money to pay for either a proper curator or even someone who could translate-and-write-down my descriptions.  Guess where the money had gone.

When I started teaching Design and Technology in Slough, my headteacher warned me "This new stuff is great, but don't throw out the baby with the bathwater."  But that is what the MBAs who run museums have done - bring in posters-for-some-other city, because it is cheaper than paying a knowledgeable curator.

Like most Mahemers I enjoy maintaining and even developing my skills and my knowledge.  So I am proud to love Blacksmithing, Steam, Computers and CNC but I doubt that many museum-looker-afters care for much more than feet through the door and their annual bonus.

Sorry.  Rant over.

Geoff

[Philipsparker]

but I doubt that many museum-looker-afters care for much more than feet through the door and their annual bonus.

Sorry - but that is unfair to the point of slander. Knowing many people involved with museums in the UK, they care passionatly about thier subject. If anyone takes the time to contact a museum with a specific enquiry, they will be granted access to incredible research facilities and information that isn't on display. As others have said, all museums have more exhibits than thay show at one time, hence the practise of rotating them. Even those who are only interested in administering a museum without caring what sort it is, will be adhering to exactly standards of conservation which will preserve the exhibits for future generations. People, in the UK at least, don't go into museum work for the money. If they do then they pretty quickly leave again once they find out how poor it is !

The original post was caused because the Science Museum have decided to change the usage of a gallery that we all admit hasn't changed much for many years. The building stands in an expensive area in the most expensive city in the world. Every bit of space will need to be justified and like it or not, footfall matters. After all, it is free to go in because the taxpayers are footing the bill. They can't, in the current climate, risk having a big space that doesn't see visitors. The world also changes and different areas of science need showcasing. Once maritime stuff was hugely important but now telecoms matters more - at least to the UK. Technical stuff looks more like science to most people anyway than models of ships and since they are the ones paying for it, it makes sense to give them what they want.

By all means complain about specific organisations but don't assume that everyone is to be judged by the lowest common denominator around the world.

[Bowwave]

What Phil says has merit and we should not be to judgmental regarding the path museums are  having to take to remain relevant. However museums also have a responsibility. That responsibility can be defined by the ethos of the museum concerned  for example , Science , maritime .transport  or local history ,maritime is very specific  and is unambiguous therefore you would expect  a good reference to the  ship and by implication the ship model. .  A museum devoted to the products of science less so perhaps but with out science the function and design of the ship could not exist in modern form. Then add on all of the engineering, handling facilities, navigation, electronics and the maritime aspect grows in importance to our every day life and therefore should be given the same recognition as any other science based industry that is represented in the Science Museum.  Science should reflect what we take for granted in every day life and try to explain   the function and form and how the “ship” has and does impact on our life from a scientific perspective.  How this would be fulfilled with out the ship model is a very mute point indeed and brings the whole issue into focus and is perhaps the reason for this debate.   To add to this is the issue of how museums present the topic of “maritime science” to the viewing public .That is for the museum to address but to abdicate that responsibility on the grounds that the interest level is falling , quite frankly does not hold water and not an argument to eliminate a whole gallery from the museum.
Bowwave

[Philipsparker]

Thanks Bowwave - I was going to write something about there being an explanation of form and function but decided I'd probably said enough.

Personally I'd love to see something bputting ship design into context and explaining how and why things work. This probably needs a new diaply with relatively few models and many diagrams, probably animated. The problem of how and where this should be is something for the museum to deal with and if they say "More people want to know about xxxxxx" then we have to take thier point. We are hardly either unbiased or a representative group of the public at large !

[John R Haynes]

So , it seems my model of HMS Queen Elizabeth, Chant class and Liberty ship will be going into storage maybe forever.
This follows my restoration work over 6 years in the early 80's on the IWM 1/48 WW1 Warship collection held in Duxford that went back to Duxford and stays there out of site .
Some of this restoration work is shown on my site www.johnrhaynes.com
It is interesting to note that photos of my Q/E were featured in a Shipcraft booklet but the publishers did not credit me as the builder since the Science Museum people did not know I had built this model  in the late 70's
and they had bought it.

[pugwash]

Had the chance to visit the Maritime Museum of Portugal in Lisbon a few years back. A light, airy, well lit building displaying
every class of warship they have operated (old and new)  merchantmen from the days of sail to modern day and all types
of fishing and coastal craft used in various parts of the country.
Place was full of tourists and school children.
Everything in display cases but plenty of room between the cases to really examine the models from all sides.
Surely if they can do it a so-called maritime nation like ours should be able to do the same.

Geoff