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[bikerdude666]

I was trying to keep out of this discussion but... Saying it's sad for future generations is a bit silly, if we are movin into a digital time, there are few young people who would appreciate the models to be honest I like making models and going to the lame and using them, but I wouldn't want to go and look at a load of old models in glass cases, as research tools for budding your own model, great! But you'll still be able to make an appointmen to go and view them. Quite simply there isn't enough interest in them, and the museum needs to get people through the doors, I'm sorry but if that means getting rid of some old models and filling the space with an exhibition about phones then so be it, as long as they're not gonna stack the boats up and set fire to them what's the problem? And before someone comes back with the argument, they're not going to be on show to the general public... The public doesn't care if it did they'd be going to see them now, the only 1's it affects are the 1's who like models, and they're the minority.

Times change, things change, you gotta change with it and get on with it.

[The long Build]

Have to disagree with that, if it was a case out get on with it then why do we have National Heritage, listed buildings who go out of there way to make it arkward to develope some type of houses to the point that some just say "'s o d' it" and let them crumble..so to be lost for good.

Also My son is in this digital age but he likes looking at models behind glass cases, I'm afraid that it is the parents who can not be bothered to take them to such places as its to much hassle to get them off the computers and gamimg machines..

[Colin Bishop]

I'm afraid that it is the parents who can not be bothered to take them to such places as its to much hassle to get them off the computers and gaming machines..

It was my parents plus Uncles and Grandfather who originally introduced me to the Kensington Museums as a very young lad and I have been entranced with their treasures ever since. Not only did I develop an interest in ships but also to a lesser extent natural history, dinosaurs (of course!) and geology as well plus most of the other things the Science Museum had to offer. These interests have given me a huge amount of enjoyment over the years and I think it is a great shame that many youngsters these days don't have the opportunity to have their imaginations captured in the same way.

However!

I have received a very nice response from the Curator of Transport at the Science Museum who assures me that it is also his very strong wish that at last some of the models should continue to be on public display although he is subject to a lot of other priorities and pressures. He has invited me to meet him sometime next month at the Museum to discuss these issues face to face and this is certainly something I will be taking up as an opportunity to represent the views of us who really value this wonderful collection of models. So maybe, just maybe, we might get a compromise if we don't ask for too much. A rotating display of some of the best models imaginatively presented would seem to be the most realistic way forward.

If I get any more information in the meantime then I will post it on here.

Colin

[carlmt]

Colin,

If the curator is disposed to the idea, I would be very very happy to act as custodian to one of the models in his collection, namely the Townsend Thoresen car ferry 'Spirit of Free Enterprise'.

As I am trying to get this Linkspan Models venture off the ground, I can give this model a very good home!!!!

I am deadly serious about this!!!  If you could put in a good word for me please?

Cheers
Carl

[Colin Bishop]

Carl,

I will keep this in mind but at the moment it's too early to say how things might turn out.

Colin

[Bowwave]

Like Colin it was my parents that introduced me to the delights of the ship model through regular visits to the Museum of Liverpool .Although damaged during the Second World War the Museum   managed to retain intact  many of its great ship models but if my memory serves me correct many of these models where arranged one case after the other, by today’s standards this would be wholly inadequate and rightly so. Yet for me as an impressionable youngster this allowed my imagination and passion for the ship model to take root.   This year alone I have  been in a position to  visit six  museums with a maritime content and discussed various aspects of the displays with the curators and visited several reserve collection. However the real impact of these visits is what comes over as genuine optimism for the future from both those directly involved in organizing and administering these collections and more importantly the viewing public. For any museum housing a ship model collection   it is not the ship model that is the core of the problem or  as some would have us believe the so called lack of interest by a younger generation, the problem would seem to lie with the museum.  Any good curator with support , imagination and  a budget to help can   use artifacts,  and  ship models is but one example  in a challenging way to inspire and generate  interest  regardless of gender or age. Such displays need not be the preserve of  digital interaction  where the ship model has little or no part .   To think otherwise would indeed consign the ship model and much more of our maritime heritage to  oblivion.
Bowwave

[brianB6]

While you are there, see if the Natural History Museum will return their part of the Canbourne meteorite to us.   
 Our local Council only has a tiny part of it. 

[Philipsparker]

I have received a very nice response from the Curator of Transport at the Science Museum who assures me that it is also his very strong wish that at last some of the models should continue to be on public display although he is subject to a lot of other priorities and pressures. He has invited me to meet him sometime next month at the Museum to discuss these issues face to face and this is certainly something I will be taking up as an opportunity to represent the views of us who really value this wonderful collection of models. So maybe, just maybe, we might get a compromise if we don't ask for too much. A rotating display of some of the best models imaginatively presented would seem to be the most realistic way forward.

This is excellent news. A rotating display of models will probably attract more people than having the same boats out for 50 years - it will be an incentive to visit to see what is out next. I bet there are models in store that haven't seen the light of day for years !

Perhaps you could suggest that while boats might be remote to most people's live, model boating would give them a new angle. Liverpool for example, has an excellent display of POW models. As a hobby we have loads of heritage (and not just some of the old blokes on Mayhem !) that dates back a long way. This all gives them a human interest angle, something that museums are looking for these days. Once you go down that route of course, you then have the stories of old sailors and perhaps more appropriatly, the development work and engineering that goes in to the model and real boats.

If you need any help, just shout. Could be a very interesting project !

[Colin Bishop]

We will just have to see what might be possible. I have offered support from the modelling community to make a case for the retention of a selection of exhibits and what might be done to stimulate visitor interest and assured him that the constraints on space are understood and that we would not have unrealistic expectations. I think he appreciates that I am not a time waster. I have sent him the article I did for Model Boats on the models at the Britannia Royal Naval  College to reinforce this.

So it's 'Watch this space' at themoment. I will report back on any progress.

Colin

[geoff p]

If it's any consolation at all, Britain is not the only place where museums are not held in the high esteem they deserve as custodians of our history.

A few years ago, whilst living in Phuket, Thailand, I visited the museum.  A very nice, single-story building but filled with ... nothing!  Unless you count brand-new posters for Bangkok city as being something.  What a crying shame.

But another day I was dragged, by friends, into a Wat (Buddhist temple) a few miles away, where I found an enormous, two-story barn.  The upstairs was laid-out like a museum, with thousands of artifacts in dust-covered display cases.  And not a label anywhere. 

I spent hours there trying to explain to my friends and to the monks what many of the farm implements were for.  This was difficult since my Thai is totally inadequate for technical terms but my attempts were greeted with enthusiasm.  Unfortunately, they don't have the money to pay for either a proper curator or even someone who could translate-and-write-down my descriptions.  Guess where the money had gone.

When I started teaching Design and Technology in Slough, my headteacher warned me "This new stuff is great, but don't throw out the baby with the bathwater."  But that is what the MBAs who run museums have done - bring in posters-for-some-other city, because it is cheaper than paying a knowledgeable curator.

Like most Mahemers I enjoy maintaining and even developing my skills and my knowledge.  So I am proud to love Blacksmithing, Steam, Computers and CNC but I doubt that many museum-looker-afters care for much more than feet through the door and their annual bonus.

Sorry.  Rant over.

Geoff

[Philipsparker]

but I doubt that many museum-looker-afters care for much more than feet through the door and their annual bonus.

Sorry - but that is unfair to the point of slander. Knowing many people involved with museums in the UK, they care passionatly about thier subject. If anyone takes the time to contact a museum with a specific enquiry, they will be granted access to incredible research facilities and information that isn't on display. As others have said, all museums have more exhibits than thay show at one time, hence the practise of rotating them. Even those who are only interested in administering a museum without caring what sort it is, will be adhering to exactly standards of conservation which will preserve the exhibits for future generations. People, in the UK at least, don't go into museum work for the money. If they do then they pretty quickly leave again once they find out how poor it is !

The original post was caused because the Science Museum have decided to change the usage of a gallery that we all admit hasn't changed much for many years. The building stands in an expensive area in the most expensive city in the world. Every bit of space will need to be justified and like it or not, footfall matters. After all, it is free to go in because the taxpayers are footing the bill. They can't, in the current climate, risk having a big space that doesn't see visitors. The world also changes and different areas of science need showcasing. Once maritime stuff was hugely important but now telecoms matters more - at least to the UK. Technical stuff looks more like science to most people anyway than models of ships and since they are the ones paying for it, it makes sense to give them what they want.

By all means complain about specific organisations but don't assume that everyone is to be judged by the lowest common denominator around the world.

[Bowwave]

What Phil says has merit and we should not be to judgmental regarding the path museums are  having to take to remain relevant. However museums also have a responsibility. That responsibility can be defined by the ethos of the museum concerned  for example , Science , maritime .transport  or local history ,maritime is very specific  and is unambiguous therefore you would expect  a good reference to the  ship and by implication the ship model. .  A museum devoted to the products of science less so perhaps but with out science the function and design of the ship could not exist in modern form. Then add on all of the engineering, handling facilities, navigation, electronics and the maritime aspect grows in importance to our every day life and therefore should be given the same recognition as any other science based industry that is represented in the Science Museum.  Science should reflect what we take for granted in every day life and try to explain   the function and form and how the “ship” has and does impact on our life from a scientific perspective.  How this would be fulfilled with out the ship model is a very mute point indeed and brings the whole issue into focus and is perhaps the reason for this debate.   To add to this is the issue of how museums present the topic of “maritime science” to the viewing public .That is for the museum to address but to abdicate that responsibility on the grounds that the interest level is falling , quite frankly does not hold water and not an argument to eliminate a whole gallery from the museum.
Bowwave

[Philipsparker]

Thanks Bowwave - I was going to write something about there being an explanation of form and function but decided I'd probably said enough.

Personally I'd love to see something bputting ship design into context and explaining how and why things work. This probably needs a new diaply with relatively few models and many diagrams, probably animated. The problem of how and where this should be is something for the museum to deal with and if they say "More people want to know about xxxxxx" then we have to take thier point. We are hardly either unbiased or a representative group of the public at large !

[John R Haynes]

So , it seems my model of HMS Queen Elizabeth, Chant class and Liberty ship will be going into storage maybe forever.
This follows my restoration work over 6 years in the early 80's on the IWM 1/48 WW1 Warship collection held in Duxford that went back to Duxford and stays there out of site .
Some of this restoration work is shown on my site www.johnrhaynes.com
It is interesting to note that photos of my Q/E were featured in a Shipcraft booklet but the publishers did not credit me as the builder since the Science Museum people did not know I had built this model  in the late 70's
and they had bought it.

[pugwash]

Had the chance to visit the Maritime Museum of Portugal in Lisbon a few years back. A light, airy, well lit building displaying
every class of warship they have operated (old and new)  merchantmen from the days of sail to modern day and all types
of fishing and coastal craft used in various parts of the country.
Place was full of tourists and school children.
Everything in display cases but plenty of room between the cases to really examine the models from all sides.
Surely if they can do it a so-called maritime nation like ours should be able to do the same.

Geoff

[Bowwave]

John  perhaps with the   growing emergence of the depository at Chatham your fine models will eventually fined a  suitable  home so  they may be  open to view by the general public .I do know that your  HMS  Hermes carrier once exhibited in prime spot at the NMM is also at Chatham and is available to view. So all is not lost.
Bowwave

[John R Haynes]

Thats good to hear , thanks . Fortunately most of my models are in the States , particularly in Pearl Harbour . Its interesting to note the difference that the Americans have to their  Forces  where each State has its battlewagons , subs etc and are proud of their forces compared to us where we discard our ships so readliy after any conflict and recently before they are  even built and we also do not take much care of our forces.
 Anybody know what happened to the Sloop Whimbrel , supposedly being liberated from Egypt ?

[Bowwave]

John as far as I am aware the intention was to bring Wimbrol to Liverpool but the ship still remains in Egypt. We certainly have the impression the US  is far more respectful of their naval heritage than we are , unfortunately  that is not the case for the old USS Olympia .Although  there has been  major fund raising efforts to conserve the cruiser  the future looks bleak . Think of it in terms of HMS Belfast and the impact of the predicament is brought home .
Bowwave

[bobk]

Sadly, as said previously, it is all about numbers.  If the Maritime Gallery is claimed to have a low number of visitors perhaps we should not be too surprised.  The Science Museum is one of London's top visitor attractions.  2,793,000 in 2009.

Against this how many of us dedicated modellers and historic ship enthusiast are there out there?
Guess:  Suppose that one in ten serious ship modellers join a club, and maybe there are only 50 such clubs around Britain of about 50 members each, so how often do each of us visit such museums a year?  Perhaps the Science Museum is not wrong, as much as I hate to admit it.  The Maths don't look good.

If you really want to see a wonderful collection of model ships our best bet could be the Model Boat Show in Warwick, 11-13 November.
That's about as close as we are likely to get nowadays.

Bob

[victorian]

Bowave said: "These artifacts whilst enormously valuable as a point of reference are not truly representative of the vessel they portray and for good reason as there existence was to impress or for scientific analysis  not to serve as a replica of the original vessel."

I've seen this said on a number of occasions and would like to point out for the interest of other modellers that it does not really apply in the case of late 19th century warships. Any discrepancies between builders models and photographs of the real ships tend to be superficial, as in the design of decorative mouldings on Japanese warships. In terms of the accuracy and realism of the ship models I have found them to be more reliable than the supposed 'official' Admiralty plans. The model of 'Diadem' referred to earlier is a case in point, displaying features that are discernable in photographs but not apparent in the Admiralty plans. These late Victorian warship models represent the real ships as recorded in photographs with huge fidelity and in my (admittedly limited) experience represent the actual ships more accurately than any other source.

As an example I offer the model of the cruiser "Good Hope" tucked away in a packing crate at Duxford. This might be one of those restored by John and we can only hope that it will re-appear at Chatham. These ship models are almost all that is left of our great Victorian Navy and they deserve to be cherished, and be made available to all those who marvel at them.

[Bowwave]

Whilst I agree that the representation on many model ships crafted during the Victorian era where better in some respects to the drawings is not surprising. Often the drawings produced were detailed only to a point where much of the working deck detail was in “outline" other drawings could be quite the opposite.   Where builder’s models of the period are concerned some can be considered superb representations but there is no such thing as accurate model only degrees of interpretation. Having spent best part of my life with full size ships and models   the connections are very superficial. For example  at the Barrow Dock museum there is a number of excellent examples of  warship models from the late  Victorian period and superficially  they leave a lasting impression on any  person taking time to examine the detail . I agree  many of the mechanical features , davits , winches , anchor handling ,  even semaphore signaling , search light mountings are little gems in their own right  and valuable as a point of reference  but many aspects of  detail on such models  should be treated  with and a level of deferential skepticism .  Simply because they were not built as replicas that was  not there function or purpose. Many Victorian models where indeed extremely basic and the function was to examine aspect of structure and design.  When I view models from any period but particularly those of the late Victorian period I stand in awe at the skill of the craftsmen that made such striking models. On the other hand  because a model looks impressive it does not indicate that it reflects the original vessel and I feel we need a healthy objectiveness with regard to how we use the information that can be gleaned from any examination of these magnificent period pieces. 
Bowwave

[Patternmaker]

As I have a model of a Shearwater 111 Catamaran I built in 1957.  I contacted the Science Museum to find out
the outcome, this was their reply;


Thank you for your email dated 14th September 2011 with regards to the possibility that the Science Museum holds within its collections a model of the Shearwater 111 catamaran. I have conducted several reviews of the Museum’s inventory. I have been able to locate the following object:

Rigged model of a double-hull catamaran, "Shearwater III" (register No.S 111 ). (Inventory number 1958-242)

This object is currently on display within the Science Museum’s Shipping Gallery; should you wish to view it please visit the Museum during normal opening hours – 10am to 6pm, last entry 5.15pm, Monday to Sunday, except 24th to 26th December. At present there are plans to remove the Shipping Gallery. The Gallery will be closed to the public in c.May 2012. The new exhibition space is scheduled to open sometime in 2014.

A final decision on where objects currently displayed in the Shipping Gallery will be stored has yet to be made. It is most likely objects will be placed in secure Museum storage (they will be accessible to the public upon request), rotated into another relevant Museum Gallery or loaned to another institution for public display. I trust this information easies some of the concerns you may have. Should you have any further questions relating to the above object and its future storage/display status then please feel free to contact me again closer to the planned gallery closure date.

It should be noted that at anyone time approximately 93 to 95 per cent of the Museum’s objects are held within secure Museum storage. These objects are accessible for viewing upon request and the Museum makes every effort to rotate objects into permanent or temporary exhibits.

Rory Cook
Corporate Information and Enquiries Officer
Science Museum

 

[gondolier88]

The real problem facing these models, as with most of the wonderful objects interned behind the scenes in our national museums; the museums are given so many objects, many small and seemingly uninteresting, some large and or dangerous and thus undisplayable. This puts them in the predicament mentioned by the curator above that they have to choose carefully what is relevant and interesting, easy to interpret by the general public and tie in with the museum's overall theme.

The ship models are a case in point; the curator would like to display these models, however, as Colin has said they simply don't attract the majority of the public's imagination. This now means they must go into storage to allow the museum to display things which do attract the public- this is how museums survive after all! Imagine how upsetting it would be if the LSM closed and no-one wanted to take responsibility for the models...

As for the fear that the models may fall foul of that most Briitish of institutions, namely beaurocracy; let me assure you that once an object, any object enters a museum it is the most difficult thing you could imagine to remove it- rember that most are given to the museum with a caveat 'this was my father's.grandfather's mother's/grandmother's flim flam jibbety wacket and it simply MUST be looked after for the benefit of the education of future generations!', this is all documented upon entering the object into the museum's itinerary and provides huge amounts of information for anyone thinking 'why is that in the museum...!', as well as the all important provenance of each object- it's reason for being kept and taking up valuable space.

The way many large museums are trying to go, led by the NRM in many ways; is to display the stores as part of the museum, in humidicly controlled storage buildings that are safe and accessable to the general public. Perhaps in the future the LSM may try to go this route too.

Interesting that the Barrow Dock museum be mentioned for their displaying the wonderful Vicker's models there- if you take a trip to Furness General Hospital, you will find a collection of large scale ship models of a calibre that would make museums drool with envy and they are on display to a captive audience (well, until your cured/healed/annoyed and leave...) seen by hundreds of people every year.

Greg

[Edward Pinniger]

Very sad news, but I'm not really surprised as there have been rumours about this gallery's closure for several years 

As other forum members have said, the value of these models isn't simply that they are large, impressive, detailed ship models (which you can see at a model show) but as historical artifacts and as three-dimensional representations of what the real vessels looked like (even if not 100% accurate in some cases), often built at the same time and by the same companies that built the real thing - they're probably the next best thing to preserving the latter, 99.9% of which have gone to the breakers long ago. In the Science Museum gallery you can see the evolution of the merchant steamship and passenger liner, all the way from the "Savannah" of 1819 to the 1930s "Queen Elizabeth" and including models of all 3 Brunel-designed steamships, all to a constant scale of 1/48.

A maritime equivalent of the National Railway Museum's open stores (as mentioned by gondolier88) seems like the best idea - ship models don't have enough general interest for museums to display a large and comprehensive gallery of them, but it would be a great shame, to say the least, for them all to end up packed away in storage cases for the indefinite future.

I have loads of high-res digital photos of the models in the gallery (especially the merchant/liner steamships, but quite a few of the warships, sailing ships and smaller vessels too) which I took a couple of years ago (the last time I'd heard the gallery was going to be closed) and was intending to put on Photobucket or similar. I never got round to it but the closure of the gallery should give me a reason to finally get round to it! I plan to make at least one final visit there to photograph any models I haven't already done.

[Dan.Lord]

Yes a real shame they are going to close these galleries. Here's a few pics I took last time I was there.

[Bowwave]

Really excellent pictures .and a sobering reminder of what the viewing public will be missing when they are withdrawn  from display . Lighting   as I remember and  confirmed in these pictures is better than most any other display of ship models that I've come across over the years.
Bowwave

[Colin Bishop]

I visited the Museum yesterday and had an interesting discussion with the Curator of Transport who effectively confirmed what has been said above. It is however still open to discussion to what extent some of the models and other exhibits might be brought back as part of a smaller display, perhaps on a rotating basis. The Curator himself is very keen that at least some models should contiinue to be displayed but no guarantees can be given on this at the moment.

I did have the opportunity to take plenty of photos while I was there which I hope will form the basis of an article in Model Boats sometime during the next few months. As well as overall shots of the models themselves I also took lots of photos of details such as winches and windlasses etc. for future reference as it is just these mundane items that are othrwise difficult to get accurate information on when you are constructing a model, as has already been pointed out.

Colin

[Bowwave]

Colin glad to hear that you had a chance to put forward  a point of view that is sheared by many people and not just those that are interested either in ship models or maritime  sciences.  Thank you for taking time to bring  these thoughts and reservations in person,   regarding the future of this world renowned collection  to the museum .
I firmly believe that it is  right to express these thoughts directly , it may not  alter the general direction  that the   Museum  is taking  but it may just give them reason  to pause and reflect .
Bowwave

[brianB6]

Thank you for the picture of H.M.S. Vanguard.
It brings back memories of very enjoyable times in the Science Museum.
It would be such a shame if future generations could not see their maritime heritage and be amazed at the work that went into these models.