Topic: Jerry's - Steam Launch - Wear (Read 14092 times)

Jerry C · « **Reply #175 on:** April 17, 2012, 09:07:42 AM »

Hi Derek, I have decided to run with BernhardBB on the feed water. He's got so many beautiful boats and he uses pond water. I'm a builder not a sailer(sic) and don't expect to sail her a lot. The boiler is easy enough to keep clean and the lake is very clean. The other consideration was weight. The steam plant is twice the size of the full scale launch and the result is a very small overload. Not noticeable unless you know. On the point about high level, I agree but treat the extra as belt and braces in case of feed failure. That bit extra may just save the boiler. When your faced with a passage across the Pacific in a small tug, calculations may tell you that you have sufficient drinking water but you still carry loads of bottled, just in case. I carry extra fuel on deck too!!!
Jerry.

Jerry C · « **Reply #176 on:** April 17, 2012, 08:30:51 PM »

This was the launch on the loch. Captivating.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33l9wuSdTh8
Jerry.

Jerry C · « **Reply #177 on:** April 18, 2012, 11:55:15 AM »

From this................................

To this....................................

Add some jiggerypokery and...................................

The other halves new coffee table as promised

!!!!!!
Jerry.

ooyah/2 · « **Reply #178 on:** April 18, 2012, 12:05:22 PM »

Jerry,
I know you are clever with wood, but how did you carve the Hefalumps from a coffee table ???

George.

rmaddock · « **Reply #179 on:** April 18, 2012, 12:17:33 PM »

I'd saw it was a definite improvement Jerry. Full Marks.

ReggieH · « **Reply #180 on:** April 28, 2012, 06:58:48 PM »

Great job, Jerry!
Now that you have run the engine some, fully installed in the boat, with prop, do you think the flywheel is necessary?
(I know it is with your coupling arrangemant)
Thanks,
Reg

Jerry C · « **Reply #181 on:** April 28, 2012, 09:55:50 PM »

Thanks Reg. wrt the flywheel, honest answer, I don't know. However the man that makes the engine uses a lightweight spoked flywheel for a desk role and suggests the big flywheel for marine use. I don't know enough to have a view. An I/c engine produces no torque at zero RPM and needs a flywheel to store energy and smooth the pulses between firing strokes whereas a reciprocating steam engine gives maximum torque at zero revs so it maybe doesn't need a flywheel. Derek decoy in Oz what do you think? Says he passing the buck!!
Rgds Jerry.

derekwarner_decoy · « **Reply #182 on:** April 28, 2012, 10:33:18 PM »

Hullo Jerry - this has always been a vexing question

If we watch video of some beautifully built steam engine models running at low speed....we literally see the semi stop start phenomena on the output shaft being the result of the change in direction of the piston/s at TDC & BDT

You are certainly correct that......... "whereas a reciprocating steam engine gives maximum torque at zero revs so it maybe doesn't need a flywheel"

Interestingly SAITO include a flywheel with their twin & triple verticals, but not their horizontal twin....& certainly other manufactures use a flywheel in the twin cylinder engines

I believe it's all related to the gyroscopic effect of the larger diameter thinner disk rotating than the same mass rotating as a simple shaft

I for one would stick with the manufacturers design recommendations... but I am sure other experienced builders [George ooyah/2] would have an opinion

..........Derek

gondolier88 · « **Reply #183 on:** April 28, 2012, 11:12:18 PM »

The reason most marine applications do not need a flywheel is that they have enough inertia from the mass of the propshaft and propeller- added together they make for a comparable weight of the average fywheel- also, moving through the water the propeller cancels out any tendancy for the engine to slow at TDC/BDC as the weight of the boat itself when underway acts as the constant and the propeller at TDC/BDC, instead of turning in the water, is turned by the water momentarily, until the power stroke begines once more.

For a truly balanced marine engine it is very difficult to beat a V-twin as they have a power stroke acting on the crank at all times as they are single crank, along with the above mentioned effect V-twins make for a very smooth engine.

Greg

KNO3 · « **Reply #184 on:** April 29, 2012, 02:55:44 PM »

Hi all,
In my experience twin cylinder double acting engines should be able to run without a flywheel if they are well made and adjusted.
All twins I have, upwards of 2 cubic centimeters capacity can run well without a flywheel. Here's an example of an oscillating twin for a paddlewheeler, running on very little air pressure from a foot pump, and as you can see it runs slow reliably without a flywheel:

http://youtu.be/TqUhyPwO-9Y (sorry I couldn't figure out how to embed the video, perhaps a moderator can do that for me)

A flywheel certainly helps, expecially when running at slow rpm's and with very small engines. It's also helpful if the engine isn't built or adjusted perfectly (if the ports aren't precisely located, admission and exhaust events not timed well, or the valves not seated properly).

Jerry C · « **Reply #185 on:** April 29, 2012, 05:21:18 PM »

At last, sea trials, really bad weather but once we lit the burner in the car and raised steam it all went well.

http://youtu.be/HIwbgFfw--I

steamboatmodel · « **Reply #186 on:** April 29, 2012, 06:18:14 PM »

Looks good, has a nice turn of speed.
Regards,
Gerald.

ooyah/2 · « **Reply #187 on:** April 29, 2012, 11:20:00 PM »

Quote from: Jerry C on April 29, 2012, 05:21:18 PM

At last, sea trials, really bad weather but once we lit the burner in the car and raised steam it all went well.

http://youtu.be/HIwbgFfw--I

Jerry ,
How did the boiler feed pump perform ?

George.

Jerry C · « **Reply #188 on:** April 29, 2012, 11:27:43 PM »

Perfick George, I never doubted it. Was only using 1/3 throttle as well. Dead chuffed.
Rgds, Jerry.

ooyah/2 · « **Reply #189 on:** April 29, 2012, 11:33:55 PM »

Quote from: derekwarner_decoy on April 28, 2012, 10:33:18 PM

Hullo Jerry - this has always been a vexing question

If we watch video of some beautifully built steam engine models running at low speed....we literally see the semi stop start phenomena on the output shaft being the result of the change in direction of the piston/s at TDC & BDT

You are certainly correct that......... "whereas a reciprocating steam engine gives maximum torque at zero revs so it maybe doesn't need a flywheel"

Interestingly SAITO include a flywheel with their twin & triple verticals, but not their horizontal twin....& certainly other manufactures use a flywheel in the twin cylinder engines

I believe it's all related to the gyroscopic effect of the larger diameter thinner disk rotating than the same mass rotating as a simple shaft

I for one would stick with the manufacturers design recommendations... but I am sure other experienced builders [George ooyah/2] would have an opinion ..........Derek

Hi Derek.
I have no experience of ever running without a flywheel, but with a twin cylinder double acting engine I would presume that it would run, but I can only comment on what I know works or doesn't.
For model (toy ) work have look at a Stuart Turner Cat and without fail every Marine engine , twin or single has a flywheel, we can't compare it to full size which I would guess that 95% run without a flywheel.
To find out take the flywheel of and run the boat in the water, if the engine runs well leave it off, if not replace it to the status quo.
George.

ooyah/2 · « **Reply #190 on:** April 29, 2012, 11:38:21 PM »

Quote from: Jerry C on April 29, 2012, 11:27:43 PM

Perfick George, I never doubted it. Was only using 1/3 throttle as well. Dead chuffed.
Rgds, Jerry.

Jerry,
Pleased to hear that, I had a little doubt about the horizontal position but all's well that ends well.
Pity it was such a horrid day, never mind there will be good days, looks great on the water, well done .
George.

ReggieH · « **Reply #191 on:** April 30, 2012, 02:57:59 AM »

Regarding the flywheel question. I found more info here.
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=31036.0
Please see post #24 & 35
Thanks for all the answers, Jerry.....Bob's your uncle!

Jerry C · « **Reply #192 on:** April 30, 2012, 07:59:08 PM »

After the successful if stormy 1st run I thought I'd show a few of the details.

Starting off with the owners wife called Slack Alice by all those acquainted with her. She reckons she's got couth but the observant amongst you will see she's still drinking out of the bottle.

Next we have the temporary skipper Honest John (the robber). He's ok once you get him out of the boozer. He's staying until I can find someone taller who doesn't have to stand on a box to see where he's going.

Had to fit some emergency kit cos of the regs.

The emergency Redwise bottle opener/lifebelt, (sinks like a stone).

Needed a few tools to hit various parts with to keep everything in top order.

I got all these and more from a dolls house kit place in Abergele, good quality and fine detail. set up the bottle in the ice then drizzled some thinned PVA glue all over the ice to lock it all together. It looks ok even at 1/12th scale.

A few more views.

Thankyou all for the complements here and on facebook.

Jerry.

gondolier88 · « **Reply #193 on:** April 30, 2012, 08:18:36 PM »

I see young John's regard for owd Slack Alice there is of such magnitude he plies her with booze, waits for her to capsize and land in the drink and then blames her untimely end on the fact that she had such a penchant for 'shipshapeliness' that he hadn't realised he could never in a million years climb up on the canopy, remove the house mast, recover the life ring, put the housemast back, climb back down, do a figure of eight, come head to wind and recover the Mrs. in less tme it takes for a young lady of dear Alice's variety to succomb to Davy Jone's Locker...!

Jerry C · « **Reply #194 on:** May 28, 2012, 11:51:20 PM »

At last, some decent weather. Llyn Padarn, Llanberis in all it's glory. As previously reported the gas feedline to the burner has been cleaned out thoroughly resulting in major improved performance. The boiler can now more than keep up with the demand for steam with the safety giving the odd pop now and again om medium rpm. At full rpm the boat is overpowered and squats.
The sight glass is useless, the boat needing to be tipped aft to get a clear reading, so I have put a piece of copper wire from a piece of aerial coax core inside the glass. It now works perfectly. The whistle packed up and back at the workshop I found the valve full of the same crud found in the gas jet. I cleaned the whistle system the same as the gas system and in addition I made an adapter to connect the whistle to my air line so that I could retune it. It's deafening now. I lubed the valve with a little copperslip. I made another adapter so that I can now force prime the feedpump with a syringe from outboard and also refill the boiler the sameway without burning my fingers on the safety valve and uptake.
The video clip is courtesy of the other half. The horrible noise at the beginning is caused by having the reversing gear in the wrong position.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hwziJk-XkA

Enjoy, Jerry.

Jerry C · « **Reply #195 on:** May 29, 2012, 01:24:22 PM »

Two more vids.

http://youtu.be/J1m4neNJA9A

http://youtu.be/bAt-f5DnynY

Jerry.

ooyah/2 · « **Reply #196 on:** May 29, 2012, 10:07:06 PM »

Quote from: Jerry C on May 28, 2012, 11:51:20 PM

At last, some decent weather. Llyn Padarn, Llanberis in all it's glory. As previously reported the gas feedline to the burner has been cleaned out thoroughly resulting in major improved performance. The boiler can now more than keep up with the demand for steam with the safety giving the odd pop now and again om medium rpm. At full rpm the boat is overpowered and squats.
The sight glass is useless, the boat needing to be tipped aft to get a clear reading, so I have put a piece of copper wire from a piece of aerial coax core inside the glass. It now works perfectly. The whistle packed up and back at the workshop I found the valve full of the same crud found in the gas jet. I cleaned the whistle system the same as the gas system and in addition I made an adapter to connect the whistle to my air line so that I could retune it. It's deafening now. I lubed the valve with a little copperslip. I made another adapter so that I can now force prime the feedpump with a syringe from outboard and also refill the boiler the sameway without burning my fingers on the safety valve and uptake.
The video clip is courtesy of the other half. The horrible noise at the beginning is caused by having the reversing gear in the wrong position.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hwziJk-XkA

Enjoy, Jerry.

Nice one Jerry,
It's good to see a project from the coffee table to sailing under steam, nice turn of power but don't get too enthusiastic if there is a bit of a chop about what with the canopy it might cause a bit of a panic.

Well done, nice to see such clean water.

George.

steamboatmodel · « **Reply #197 on:** May 29, 2012, 10:10:16 PM »

That is Fantastic Jerry,
It looked like you had a fair breeze blowing a couple of times and had no problems maneuvering a great build. That looks like a very nice place to run at.
Regards,
Gerald.

derekwarner_decoy · « **Reply #198 on:** May 30, 2012, 03:10:53 AM »

Yes...absolutely brilliant Jerry........

She [the vessel] appears to have a good reserve of speed..........I must also agree with the othe members that the location appears beautiful........

Derek

Jerry C · « **Reply #199 on:** May 30, 2012, 10:58:10 AM »

Thanks guys. Llyn Padarn is very photogenic being right in the middle of Snowdonia.
The boat itself is very stable and if you take a look at the very first run you'll see she takes
a really massive gust at the beginning which also put the wind up Ben, the cameraman.
The big worry would be if the wind whipped up a large "sea" as she has no permanent buoyancy
built in and one decent goffer and she'd go straight down. I wish someone made a small CO2
emergency buoyancy device like an automatic life jacket inflator cos reportedly Padarn is full of
model boats.
Steamboat model, a link for you showing a ship I was in arriving in Montreal in the 70's. Calchas
was later a total loss. I took the pic of her on fire but was not actually her 2nd Mate, I was on another bluey.

http://www.rhiw.com/y_mor/blue_funnel_home/a_boats/calchas/calchas.htm
This is the best site ever for people interested in Blue Funnel Line and the Llyn Peninsula. Check it out.

Do they still have those massive black squirrels in the College area of Toronto?
While I was in Montreal I took part in A Seamens Olympics. I was a shot putter!!
Jerry

steamboatmodel · « **Reply #200 on:** May 30, 2012, 04:40:59 PM »

"Do they still have those massive black squirrels in the College area of Toronto?"
Not only in the College area, but all over. We also have some Gray ones that are almost as big. They are commonly referred to as fluffy tailed rats, next to the racoon's they are the home owners biggest bane. Regulations forbid poisoning them and you are only allowed to live trap them and then they have to be released within 24 hours and within 30meters of where they are caught. They just cost one of my nabors $2000 in roof repairs.
Regards,
Gerald.

andywright · « **Reply #201 on:** June 07, 2012, 09:52:29 PM »

Hi Jerry, can you tell me what size prop ypu are running and what make is it? I have a metcalf solent launch with the same boiler and steam engine as yours, it steams OK, but lacks endurance.

http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3755.0

Andy

Jerry C · « **Reply #202 on:** June 07, 2012, 11:50:18 PM »

Hi Andy, prop is 2.75" dia x 4.1" pitch, 3 blade, made by Propshop. Cost about £25. He'll make anything you want, I believe he can go to 6" pitch. He takes a while but worth waiting for. My boat is 37.5" long, the engine also drives a feed pump and the boat is way over powered at full steam ahead. A tank of gas lasts just over the hour though to be honest I haven't timed it since I cleared the crud out of the gas line, it may now be under the hour. Without the feed pump I get 20 minutes to the bottom of the sight glass.
Jerry.

andywright · « **Reply #203 on:** June 08, 2012, 09:59:02 PM »

Thanks for the reply

Andy

Jerry C · « **Reply #204 on:** June 10, 2012, 06:20:38 PM »

Not a happy bunny! Just spent 30mins writing a post, hit spell checker, ping, all gone!!
Had a good run at the lake. Got a 42 minute continuous run with feed pump coping ok with consumption. So decided to do the trip "to the wall and back" with "Odin" riding shotgun. No problems with the exception that the steam regulator seemed a bit hit and miss. On return home I stripped it cleaned and lubed it with a dab of Copperslip ans replaced it. Will see if better next trip. It seemed to be perfectly ok, I should add.
I have a little video footage showing draining oiler and deoiler after a bench test done earlier. http://youtu.be/3dYY9H87XMY
I will post a video taken with a keyfob camera which shows what really happens to the regulator, sight glass and pressure gauge during a run. I warn you it's very boring unless you're really interested!!
Jerry.

derekwarner_decoy · « **Reply #205 on:** June 11, 2012, 12:13:58 AM »

Hullo Jerry....very interesting video

My lay understanding is ......

1. The volume of water dispelled from from the lubricator into the bucket approximates the amount of steam oil that was carried over in the steam to drive the engine
2. That steam oil went to two places.........fine droplets that lubricated the moving components and secondly that near immeasurable oily slick on top of the condensate

In your spoken comments you note the fluid volume from the de-oiler as low.......I thought it appeared high % wise.....

....looking forward to the next Video of SLWear...............

Derek

Jerry C · « **Reply #206 on:** June 11, 2012, 05:00:25 PM »

Thanks Derek. Although that video of the draining off of the oiler and de-oiler appears to be a follow on to previous bench tests, actually it's like all movies, a bit of a cheat. In reality it was done after the first run in the lagoons. At the end of the run the weather became so bad we baled out and headed for home. When Ben was thawed out I remembered we hadn't drained them so we filmed it. Ambient temperature during the run was 2 degrees and storm force winds so de-oiler was acting as a condenser. It may also be bigger than necessary and so takes a bit of warming up. Recent runs in comparatively warmer weather only provide 50cc of condensate. During bench tests over winter at 5 degrees from a 65 minute run I got 190cc condensate from 642cc water used. I'm happy with things as they are now. I just need a little more confidence in the water supply. As long as I can bring the boat close enough to observe the level with the motor stopped then I'm happy. Will eventually rig an in boiler sensor switching an alarm of some sort, then I can do "the river trip".
One thing you may be able to advise on is the question of exhaust steam passing through pipes of same diameter as inlet. It doesn't seem right to me.
Jerry.

derekwarner_decoy · « **Reply #207 on:** June 11, 2012, 11:54:11 PM »

Jerry.......the French model steam builders seem to often us larger diameter exhaust line tubing which is a sensible thing to do, however most if not all commercially manufactured condensor - de-oiler tanks have 1/8" or 5/32" OD heavy wall tube inlets which also create an increased presure drop

Even at our relatively low exhaust line pressures [3PSI?] we also end up with a pressure drop due to tube bore size & length of line etc

Certainly one of the contributors to your condensate volume would be the low ambient temperatures......you could consider lagging the de-olier body

Derek

derekwarner_decoy · « **Reply #208 on:** June 12, 2012, 01:25:34 PM »

Sorry Jerry....I penned my previous note this morning [on a monitored work PC @ lunch time] that could not display the video clips or any other images.....[big brother was watching

]

Clearly the de-oiler on SL Wear is lagged together with the return line to the de-oiler

when I review images this evening.......

I still suggest that ~~~~ 30% of the boiler feed water to be returned as condensate is a high %

Derek

Jerry C · « **Reply #209 on:** June 13, 2012, 01:33:28 PM »

Cheers Derek. It's more a theoretical point, not important. My setup does everything I wanted in spades with bags in reserve. It may be interesting in later life to play around with the slide valve and ports on this motor to get more use out of the steam we make but for this project I'm very happy. I did a test run on the bench the other evening and on a warmish evening on a full tank of gas with clean jet and pipe got 55 minutes endurance. More than I will ever need, no chance of melting the boiler. The safety only lifts if I stop her for a bit and at just above tickover the boat speed is right. Any more and it's a waste. So I wouldsay that Maccsteam Madea good product, give good advice and that this boiler and this engine are a good match. My launch is just a fraction too small for this package which I'm pretty sure will drive a much larger hull.
Jerry.

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