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Author Topic: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.  (Read 321135 times)

nhp651

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #125 on: January 03, 2012, 11:50:27 pm »

no probs......mind you, with your rescue service taking quite a few of our ex lifeboats, there's no excuse for you not to build a model of one now......

so come on, get to that bench and lets see a nice Waveney in Nedd Lloyd colours emerging next spring, lol..........you know you want to,  O0 O0 O0
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nhp651

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #126 on: January 04, 2012, 07:40:30 pm »

The skegs have been dry fitted now, the plastic inserts put into the skegs and blocks to take the rudder tubes have been drilled, inserts placed in and rudder bars cut to length ready for tomorrow when I'll pin them from both inside and outside with 2mm brass pins to both locate and keep them straight and true whilst gluing with 2 part liquid epoxy.

The Hulls have also been sanded to get rid of all moulding lines and levelled the bulwark tops off.

The support block for the rudder tube is made from obeche and a piece of the same , size included, along with a length of plastic tubing has also been set aside ready to go into a parts bag for each boat, for later collation when putting the part for the kits together.

the obeche block will be set onto the hull of the boat using polyester body filler to give a firm watertight grip between block and hull.
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nhp651

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #127 on: January 05, 2012, 03:47:22 pm »

Some say that scratch building hones the little grey cells to think laterally, others say it's the mother of all inventions.

Even more so when you are also trying to make it an easy build for others to copy.

Well, I hit a problem.......or perhaps a quandry this afternoon when trying to fit the skegs, with all locating pins in position and the rudder in possition as well................it just wouldn't fit.

But the pins are needed to hold firm and make sure that if the skeg gets knocked when sailing, it wouldn't part company with the grp hull.

So I thought a while and then decided that the two pins that were causing the problem and not allowing the skeg to "drop" into possition were the two horrizontal pins on each boat that fit into the vertical face of the end of the grp keel. If I could overcome this problem but keep those pins, all would be fine.

A bit more thinking and looking at the holes already drilled and I thought that if these drill holes became a slot in the end of the keel for the pins to fall into, the problem would be solved, as the slot could then, on glueing the skeg in place, be filled with 2 part epoxy whilst gluing the rest of each skeg in possition.

So, having already drilled the holes, I re inserted the drill bit into the top hole, and then keeping the drill spinning turned the drill bit upwards to ream out the hole into a slot.Likewise I did the same with the bottom hole and joined that up with the top hole which has already become the slot.
Now, with one downward motion, the skeg, and rudder can be pushed into possition and glued up, and held in place with tape and clamps until set.

However the wooden parts are now off to the "paint bay" to be given several coats of sanding sealer and rubbed down with wire wool ready for when the boat is sprayed up later.

The photos show firstly the marking up and then the pins set into the skeg, plus the slot.

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RaaArtyGunner

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #128 on: January 05, 2012, 09:00:30 pm »

Neil,
A thought, what would be the result, if the two pins in the "slot", were replaced by a flat material such as Brass.

The flat material would reinforce the joint between skeg and keel.
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furball

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #129 on: January 05, 2012, 09:51:30 pm »

You'd still need a slot for one of the axes though, as the reinforcing bits (whether they be pins or bar) are at 90 degrees to each other.

Holes for pins are easier to drill in the wood as well.


Lance
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nhp651

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #130 on: January 05, 2012, 10:08:12 pm »

Neil,
A thought, what would be the result, if the two pins in the "slot", were replaced by a flat material such as Brass.

The flat material would reinforce the joint between skeg and keel.
I understand what you are saying, raaArty, and if I were doing this for myself I would probably go down that road.......BUT, it is going to be a kit at the end of the day, and when cottage industry manufacturers get into the realms of having to produce small squares of brass in the pakage for the kit, it then starts to ( even with such small items) complicate the production run of them. It is far easier to put a length of 2.4mm brazing rod into the package than have to stop, and cut some plates of brass.
However I appreciate the idea, and will have a look at the idea , but the brass would have to be of similar thickness to 2.4 to have any strength............but I do see your point, cheers..thinking cap on now.

And a good point there too Lance..don't know whether it would weaken the ply ( doubt it) but to get a slot in grp is easier than in ply.
neil.
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RaaArtyGunner

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #131 on: January 05, 2012, 10:54:59 pm »

Neil,

Some after thoughts, understand KISS and not over complicate materials etc.

As  the problem is that the fixing holes/dowels are at right angles to each other two alternatives spring to mind.

1. Use flat plate material instead of round material. Slots are more forgiving than drilling a series of holes on a centre line. Maybe thinner ply would suffice for the flat material.

2. Use round dowels such as brass for the dowels but have the dowels in the same plane, that is parallel to each other, do this by drilling the holes at say 45 degrees to the surface, that way they are parallel to each other and slot into their holes.

A lot harder than the flat plate slot option.
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nhp651

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #132 on: January 05, 2012, 11:33:14 pm »

using ply would work, as there will be an ample supply of scrap 1.8 or even 3mm ply in the kit, and I'll make mention of that as an alternative in the instructions to the 2.4mm rod pins.
fair comment, and hadn't thought of ply or that method.
However, the drilling of all holes at 45 degrees wouldn't work because you still have the lower rod of the rudder to slip into a hole which is at right angles to the skeg and it is this location that hinders the locating of the other pinsall at the same time.
I had thought originally of putting the pins into the skeg from the inside of the boat, where it fits the flat area of the hull aft of the tunnels, but you still have the rudder bar at the bottom, and you can't get this in unless the slot is fitted to the aft end of the keel...............sort of 3 different pinning processes in one, and that was the initial problem.
neil.
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nhp651

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #133 on: January 06, 2012, 10:47:33 am »

the rudder skegs have now all been located, and glued in place.
Even though the rudder bar is running in plastic tubing to aid smooth movement, I have still injected into the plastic guide tubes a mixture of vaseline/carbon powder to aid lubrication and barrier against water ingress.
The skegs were all glued with 2 part epoxy. I have also written into the instructions the alternative method of fixing the lower leading edge of the wooden skegs on H F Bailey and Field Marshall and Mrs Smuts with a biscuit of 1.8 mm ply as suggested by our ozzie friend RaaArtygunner..........Pondered it last night for some time and on how to cut the slot rather than drilling out and agreed that it was a good idea.

The method of cutting I thought of instead of drilling out would be to use a saw and cut in to the wooden skeg and the keel leaving a triangular section in each, into which a right angled triangular piece of ply could be glued and fitted. Thanks for the idea, RR

The only reason I didn't use it on these two models is that I'd already stuck the pins into the wooden skeg with epoxy before the suggestion and didn't want to damage the skeg by trying to remove them in favour of a sawn slot, which will accomodate a triangular biscuit.

As I said earlier, certain fittings can be used on similar boats, and the white metal skeg used on the earlier designed Anne Letitia Russell, can be used on the Mary Stanford, as I have done. However it is a little thinner than the M.S.'s keel and so sandwiches of 1.8 mm ply on both sides of the white metal rudder skeg have been cut, drawn onto the screen prints and then glued into place using 2 part epoxy and clamped.

The pictures below show, mary Stanford, field Marshall and Mrs Smuts and H F Bailey, respectively.

I shall now wait for it all to set, and then clean of exess epoxy, and fill all parts with filler....reminds me, I've run out......off to the car factors for some more..better a big tin this time.lol
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nhp651

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #134 on: January 07, 2012, 09:09:03 pm »

The final part of the Mary Stanford Rudder skeg arrangement has been fitted..........the false stern post that the rudder up/downhall brackets will be attached too, but these, being vulnerable to knocks and brakage if fitted at this point will be fitted later in the build. The stern post was made from 3mm ply and  glued and pinned with 2.4mm brazing rod before being filled and later sanded smooth with polyester filler.

Next will be fitting the prop shafts and "A" frames on all three boats.
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nhp651

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #135 on: January 07, 2012, 10:07:41 pm »

This was the part I was dreading most, as getting these things lined up in the tunnels is probably one of the most important processes of making a classic lifeboat, and has to be close on perfect to get the maximum out of the propellers, which are limited in size anyway to the inner dimensions of the tunnel. the sizes are laid down anyway by the  class of lifeboat anyway, and the prop shafts have to run true down the tunnels.

To start with, I assembled the prop tube/shaft with the "a" bracket and the end locking nut for the propeller. I had already glued the bearing into the "A" bracket ready and made sure that the shaft rotated in the bearing with ease.

I have also found that these assemblies have a tendency to slide around all over the place and never stay in one possition.ie, the tube will creep up the shaft and then the whole thing is out of position when glued, so I have in the past, and here, locked the prop tube onto the shaft at the desired position with masking tape.......easily removeable once the job is finished and glued up.

Starting with a pilot hole in the centre of a raised piece on the moulding and enlarging to an oval allows the prop tube to sit in neatly.

As the tube is locked in position to the shaft, the only thing now that is moveable on the shaft is the "A" bracket, which is put into place at the tail of the shaft, and close to the raised markings on the tunnel that correspond with the approximate position of the bracket. The  bracket is rotated untill the shaft is centred in the tunnel, and the centre of the shaft is at the correct hieght above the top of the tunnel wall ( as depicted on the plans) and then the possition of where the legs meet with the tunnel wall is marked in pencil. The whole assembly is then removed and the markings of contect between legs and tunnel are covered with masking tape.
 Onto the legs are placed the "feet"....white metal brackets that make gluing contact with the tunnel, and also house the legs in a slot. Two part epoxy is then applied to the ends of the legs and the whole assembly is put back into position, making sure that the feet to the legs glue and set whilst touching the tunnel.....they will then be left to set for an hour, whilst working on the next boat in exactly the same way, but with different brackets and shaft lengths for the two watsons in comparrison with the Barnett........Mary Stanford.

Once set, the feet are drawn around with pencil to reviele when the assembly is removed again, a square.

The square marks the gluing area, and I now, using a 1.5mm drill bit drill multiple holes on the inside of this square to give a "keying area" got the adhesive to cling into. I also drill some holes into the feet and the ends of the legs of the "A" bracket for the same "key". Remove the masking tape

Mixing some polyester filler I put some into the leading and trailing edge of the oval which takes the prop tube into the hull at the forward end of the tunnel and also a liberal amount ( it can always be taken off when set) onto the bottom of the feet which make contact with the tunnel wall.

The assembly is put into the hull at the correct possition and the feet make upto the tunnel wall in ( by now ) the exact pre determined position. it is held in this position with masking tape until the filler sets and cures.another hour, whilst I can turn my attention to the next boat.

Finally turning each boat upside down I can now fill around the entry holes where the tubes come into the hull with polyester filler. Whilst doing this, you'll see the area where the filler has squeezed through from the base of the feet......this area can be reinforced with some more filler to bond all that has been used to glue the "A" bracket into the hull. set aside to cure before taking the prop shafts out to clean up around the base of the feet with abrasive paper.
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nhp651

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #136 on: January 07, 2012, 10:32:41 pm »

Finally all three boats together showing the different rudder arrangements.

That process only took 4.5 hours from start to finish, and although they say the camera never lies....the shots show the skegs all over the place and the prop tubes totally uneven..........was mortified when I saw the shots.....can assure you, they are all set even, straght and level..............think I'll buy a new camera, lol
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furball

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #137 on: January 08, 2012, 12:08:49 am »

A couple of tips (hope I'm not teaching people to suck eggs here  ok2 )

If dealing with separate shafts as you've got above, I cut a couple of scraps of ply as spacers and drill a couple of holes in each the correct distance apart for the shafts with a diameter as the prop shafts. I then bolt the shafts to these spacers with the nuts that come with the shafts, so they're held together as a rigid pair. Of course, the ply spacer on the outside has to be a bit of a funky shape, as it's got to go  up and over the keel, which can hold the shafts centrally in the tunnels - the inside one can be a simple strip about half inch wide. All you have to worry about then is the fore and aft adjustment.

What I do if I've got a grp hull and I'm soldering up my own A frames is cheat - and make both A frames as one unit, which is sort of a \o---o/ shape. These are the correct distance apart for both shafts. You can then fix the shafts to the A frame unit, making sure they're parallel. This makes them one rigid unit. I then cut a piece out of the hull in the deadwood from the keel up to where the cross piece of the A frame is, epoxy the shafts & A frame unit in, and then glue the piece cut out of the hull back in again, reinforcing the inside with grp tape and resin so that it's water tight, and filling any view of the cuts on the outside. You can dummy up the feet which normally hold the A frames on with bits of plasticard. This makes the shafts absolutely solid, and I've done this on at least 5 boats with absolute success.

It's easier to do than explain, and I hope that I've got the idea across. Unfortunately, I don't think it'll work with the wooden hull that I'm working with at the moment. {:-{

Lance
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nhp651

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #138 on: January 08, 2012, 12:35:05 am »

good ideas, lance especially  the one regarding the disc for the propeller spacing......and I'll incorporate that into the instructions.

I know what you mean about the frames too, but the frames for the Watsons are already there ( they are the same ones for the Rother...............) the brass pair in the picture were just a couple I knocked up because I only had one set of Rother white metal ones..Having said that, as the kit would be aimed for even the lesser experienced modeller as well as the experienced........I don't think that they would want to start cutting great chunks out of the "deadwood" on a GRP moulding and then start to have to replace it with reinforced grp matting and resins........even some experience modellers shy away from grp work.
neil.
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nhp651

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #139 on: January 08, 2012, 09:29:07 pm »

next job on the hull is to fix the bilge skegs and keels.

They are quite heafty articles on the real boats, to act as protection for the hull and propellers and made of good stout stuff that will take heavy knocks and veen grounding in certain cases especially when such Coxs'ns as Henry Blogg of Cromer was in charge....he had a habit of running his lifeboats onto the decks or into the split hulls of the casualty that he was attempting to rescue.....hence his 3 gold medals and countless others to his credit for bravery and fine sea man ship.
So my normal way of fixing a bilge keel of splitting the hull longitudinally with a jick saw was out the question , not only for the general kit builder, but also because they are made from a representative thickness of 6mm ply, and being four of them in such close proximity I felt that this would deform and weeken the grp hull if 4 splits each of 6mm wide and as long as they are were to be cut into the hull.
I therefore decided to use my second choice of fixing them and that is to pin the skegs with 2.4mm brazing rod and drill through the hull, gluing with epoxy, backing up on the inside with grp matting and resin and filling on the outside with polyester filler, finally sanding and sealing with sanding sealer.
But I get ahead of myself, with this as I have as yet, only curt out the ply keels and transfered them to the draughting paper for screen printing, and drilled for the pins. that process will be done on all three boats tomorrow.
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nhp651

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #140 on: January 08, 2012, 09:40:45 pm »

I also today glued together the inner frames that support the decks for the three boat. I used epoxy to glue them and made sure ( on the first picture) that they were glued up squarely by using the diagonal measurement method......if the two diagonals are equal....the  rectangle will be "square" as long as the length between joints on both sides is equal...........a basic law of geometry/ trigonometry, that has come in useful in my teaching of woodwork for many years.

these are now also ready for  setting into the hull, using polyester filler to do the job and that might be tomorrow or on tuesday, depending on how long it takes to get the bilge keels fitted and filled.
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nhp651

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #141 on: January 09, 2012, 11:10:05 pm »

Bilge keels have now been pinned, the hull drilled and the starboard side glued using 2 part epoxy.port side just waiting ti be glued, and then all filled with polyester filler and sanding.
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nhp651

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #142 on: January 11, 2012, 12:23:30 pm »

The bilge keels and skegs have now been attached using epoxy adhesive, and the pins have been bonded in on the inside of the hull with two thin layers of polyester resin and glass matting, allowed to cure and then the pins protruding have been ground down smooth.
later I'll fill any irregularities on the outside between hull and skegs with filler.
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nhp651

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #143 on: January 11, 2012, 12:42:43 pm »

Although I haven't yet sanded down the outside parts, and surplus filler from all parts, there is a reason.......I want to get the hulls nice and rigid before attacking them with sander and abrasive papers, and would like something to grip hold of...there's nothing worse than a big wide unwealdy slippery hull to be resting on a bench, on your knee or anywhere else you fancy and not being able to hlod it because there's nothing to get a grip of.......so the next step is to set into the hulls, the ladder frameworks for the deck supports that I glued up earlier.

These are set in place with polyester filler.........

Firstly I set them into the correct position with the frames in exactly the correct pre-marked place so that when the upper works are set onto the deck, they are precisely where they should be.. The hull is taped closed........hulls have a bit of a tendency to move a little, and opver the past 4 - 6 years when these were orriginally moulded, the sides of them have sagged outwards as things have been dumped on top of them in dry storage..........so I have nipped them in to the correct beam using masking tape to get them correctly beamed.

Once this was done, I used filler first to tack the beams into the concave bulge made by the belting on the outside of the hull. Once they have all been tacked in, I filled in that hollowed area again with filler so that once set, I can glue to the inner edges of the bulwarks, some strips of 6 x 6mm sprue as a support for the outer edge of the deck. these will be fitted next, once the support frame has completely set inside the hull.

It might look incredibly messy at the moment, but aall will be fine once sanded down.
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carlmt

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #144 on: January 11, 2012, 01:00:22 pm »

Niel - excuse my butting in here, but this narrative is the most comprehensive build instructions of a kit I have yet seen  :-)) :-))

Take off the first parts detailing the make up of the mould and fabrication of the hull from the mould, then you have a perfect instruction book for the kits of these boats - including photographs !!!!
Carl

nhp651

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #145 on: January 11, 2012, 01:13:16 pm »

Apart from the tense and plurals, and reference to all boats, (which will be singularly geared to each boat in each set of instructions) what I have put here, Carl is almost exactly what goes into my instructions......I feel the need in putting a kit together for the builder to be completely at ease with the build, and if they can read a set that sounds as though it comes from the heart and from someone actually building the model along side them, then they have more confidence.
I started building kits ( not airfix or revelle although I did build them years ago )  of model ships and cut my teath on Graupner and Billing in the 1970's, and didn't want mine to read like those......disassociation is all I could say between kit supplier and builder......and there is nothing worse than all points not being covered and a learner having to guess.

It's not a case of experience in modelling.......but more an understanding of what the customer needs and desires when buying and building a model..and in that way the builder will gain confidence rather than being put off for life.

And the only way I could do that is to write them as I build and in that way I don't miss a thing, lol.
And to be honest Carl.....don't mind you "butting in" at all...that's what I am doing it for, for people to join in with their two penneth worth, and a couple of good points from other members have already made me adjust little parts......which we all learn from...so the more the merrier.
neil.
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nhp651

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #146 on: January 11, 2012, 03:28:09 pm »

this is where your old kerput batteries that you keep hidden away, come in handy...weighing the cross beams down to bulwark level whilst the filler sets to hold the frame in place.....these are the two Watson's fitted with their deck support frames.
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RaaArtyGunner

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #147 on: January 11, 2012, 09:04:53 pm »

It's not a case of experience in modelling.......but more an understanding of what the customer needs and desires when buying and building a model..and in that way the builder will gain confidence rather than being put off for life.
neil.

Which results in good customer satisfaction  :-)) :-)) which is sadly missing from some kit makers today who are solely geared to price and only supply the minmum.
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nhp651

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #148 on: January 11, 2012, 09:32:02 pm »

Thanks for the thumbs up RaaArty.
Please correct me anyone, but not counting the making of moulds and moulding, is there anything so far that the average, or even beginner modeller couldn't do or understand about the processes of what has been done...
Would just like to know, and if glaring, correct..
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CF-FZG

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #149 on: January 11, 2012, 09:54:30 pm »

Neil,

One thing that could be explained - is how to convert a 'lines plan' into a framework ready for planking :-))


Mark.
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