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[Talisman]

Thanks for the thumbs up RaaArty.
Please correct me anyone, but not counting the making of moulds and moulding, is there anything so far that the average, or even beginner modeller couldn't do or understand about the processes of what has been done...
Would just like to know, and if glaring, correct..

Hi Neil,
 I would like to know how to produce a silk screen but I'm not pushing incase its a trade secret... I asked my Mum ( An x Head Teacher ) her methods would be great in a School environment but not neat enough for production. Please don't tell her i said that as the wrath of a Headie i can live without  (Headie - Glasgow for Head teacher... amongst other terms non repeatable ...)

Regards,
Kim

[nhp651]

Neil,

One thing that could be explained - is how to convert a 'lines plan' into a framework ready for planking


Mark.

Hi Mark............now that could take an age.......if you pm me with your concerns I can discuss with you via email.............but  it would be hard for me to  explain on here, a) as it now doesn't concern the build any more, and b) it depends on how you want the lines to work.......in either framing or bread and butter construction templates.....and not every one does it the same way when modelling...my way could be different to anyone else on here.........and discussion that came along would detract from this thread........however if you wwant to start another thread on how to use lines, I'm sure there would be good discussion  and plenty of ideas from others on here.
neil.

[nhp651]

Hi Neil,
 I would like to know how to produce a silk screen but I'm not pushing incase its a trade secret... I asked my Mum ( An x Head Teacher ) her methods would be great in a School environment but not neat enough for production. Please don't tell her i said that as the wrath of a Headie i can live without  (Headie - Glasgow for Head teacher... amongst other terms non repeatable ...)

Regards,
Kim

hi Kim,

It's no trade secret at all, and although I can tell you the technique by which they are made, I don't make them myself, only the method of how they are made.However I will say that when professionally made the silk is so tight on the frame it can almost be used as a drum.

Firstly you draw out on quality draughting paper with a black ink pen, (I used to use Rotring pens and their ink, but not having used them in a very long time, they are now kaput)the inpressions of what you eventually want to produce on timber or plastic. The ink has to be dense black for the same reason that you need it to be for brass etching, as it is basically the same process.

Taking it along to a silk screen producer, they will photograpg the print that you have drawn and by photo transfer will transfer a negative onto your sceen, which will already have been stretched over a frame. This is to ensure that there is no distortion of the print.
The black lines of the print will now be in negative form and will allow ink to be pressed through it, whilst the clear of the paper will have been blacked/blanked off as impregnable.

The screen is then placed over the timber and a small amount of ink is placed at one end of the screen........with a rubber squeegie, the ink is squeezed along the screen with the ink passing through only where the lined of the print once were, thus giving a perfect impression of your drawing onto the timber or plastic.

the ink is usually water soluable and washed off after a number run, so as not to block the holes in the silk screen. I can't remember from memory because the ones I had made for the Anne Letitia Russell were over 17 years ago, but I think they were about 120 denier rating, but I do remember they cost me even then over £250 for the 4 in various sizes that I had made.............but whether the originals have long been scrapped I honestly don't know, but they are, if treated with respect, good hard workers. lol

[CF-FZG]

Hi Mark............now that could take an age.......if you pm me with your concerns I can discuss with you via email.............but  it would be hard for me to  explain on here, a) as it now doesn't concern the build any more, and b) it depends on how you want the lines to work.......in either framing or bread and butter construction templates.....and not every one does it the same way when modelling...my way could be different to anyone else on here.........and discussion that came along would detract from this thread........however if you wwant to start another thread on how to use lines, I'm sure there would be good discussion  and plenty of ideas from others on here.
neil.

Neil,

I'll have a think about exactly what I need explaining and start a new thread, you are invited to contribute

On the 'silkscreen' subject - do you still have them prepared, I would think it would be more cost effective to convert to CAD for a CNC cutter to cut or engrave the material nowadays


Mark.

[Talisman]

HI Neil,
Many thanks for that explanation, I did take the info in ... Until you mentioned £250.00 ... Blimey! Coupled with the risk of a bad print & expensive Birch Ply .... Blimey twice!

It really does make you appreciate how much work / expense goes into a production kit! even just in this one element!

Carry on Sir! Your doing  a great Job!

Regards,
Kim

[nhp651]

That is absolutely true, Mark......but such a piece of equipement is not only out of my price range by a massive amount, it is also totally out of my realms of understanding on how to use one, even if I had one, lol..........I'll leave that to the "grown ups"of the model manufacturing world.......I'm still living in the vynil record era, sorry to say. And to answer the question....I just prepare the drawings to standard for making into screen prints.....they could just as easily be turned into cad drawings I suppose, but that also would be for the technically minded...........errrr, not me I'm afraid.

I have to say though it would be lovely to be able to give the modeller a mass of pre cut internal deck support beams......save a huge amount of work.......but that would be up to Dave M.

and cheers for your encouragement Kim.
perhaps it's a time when model manufacturers could unite, just as farmers do these days, and instead of having valuable equipment lying idle, come to some agreement between one another to interface and help each other out with certain areas of work.........but not up to me to suggest that........

[Talisman]

and cheers for your encouragement Kim.
perhaps it's a time when model manufacturers could unite, just as farmers do these days, and instead of having valuable equipment lying idle, come to some agreement between one another to interface and help each other out with certain areas of work.........but not up to me to suggest that........

Neil,

This afternoon while suitably high on the smell of GRP going off i had a very similar thought .... Perhaps a Manufacturers forum. I know that i have used the likes of Mobile marine Model skills as it make sense to outsource internally!

If you or any of the other manufacturesrs would like to chat then I'm all ears!
 Sorry for using your post for such an outburst.

Regards,
Kim

[nhp651]

Neil,

This afternoon while suitably high on the smell of GRP going off i had a very similar thought .... Perhaps a Manufacturers forum. I know that i have used the likes of Mobile marine Model skills as it make sense to outsource internally!

If you or any of the other manufacturesrs would like to chat then I'm all ears!
 Sorry for using your post for such an outburst.
Regards,
Kim

I know what you mean about grp and the high you get......and  at the moment it's legal  ,
but I have to say, I am no longer a manufacturer.......I do this for dave because I enjoy doing it.....keeps the brain active. But I will mention it to him about our thoughts and see what he says. I know he has been thinking of going down the route of cad, laser and  cutting and it would be silly for people not to share resources........I've always thought that......but am not in a possition to influence folk.
neil.

[nhp651]

WOW!!!....... that sonic sander I had as a present for christmas ripped through the filler in less time than it would have taken me to count to ten the number of cliche's on a Batman episode, lol ( for those who don't watch it, it's the finest of american cheese that you could ever wish to see, lol.channel 24 daytime)



It would have taken me about an hour and many sanding pads if I'd have used a palm sander, but each boat took around 10 minutes.......

I sanded the filler that had been used to fill the hollow left by the moulding of the protective belting so that I could glue a strip of 6 x 6 mm sprue to the edge of the bulwark, to eventually glue the deck edges to. Using2 part epoxy I glued pieces between the cross beams that had been pre sawn half way through to allow bending the timber to the contour and shape of the bulwarks. I held the strips whilst glueing with spring clamps.

Tomorrow after coming back from watching War Horse with the kids and having a nice juicy ice cream, I'll feel more inclined to putting a fillet of filler underthe lower edge of the beading around the bulwark to both hold the beading in place and also to give a totally waterproof bond to the decks once glued to that beeding and framework..

[carlmt]

Neil,

This afternoon while suitably high on the smell of GRP going off i had a very similar thought .... Perhaps a Manufacturers forum. I know that i have used the likes of Mobile marine Model skills as it make sense to outsource internally!

If you or any of the other manufacturesrs would like to chat then I'm all ears!
 Sorry for using your post for such an outburst.

Regards,
Kim

Sorry Neil, not hi-jacking your topic honestly, but I couldnt let this comment pass without a response from me...........in the positive 

Will start a new topic........
Carl

[nhp651]

no probs carl,

There used to be  an Assiciation of Model kit manufacturers, I'm sure of, in the 1980'/90's, but I certainly wasn't a member of...they'd probably have kicked me off, lol...but just wonder if Colin Bishop knows or remembers what happened to it and the members.
neil.

[nhp651]

The deck support beading around the bulwarks has now been reinforced underneath with filler, and will now, once the deck and combings for the cabins have been fitted, be totally waterproof.

next to fit are the well decks for the cabins, but I have to make these first..........hopefully tomorrow for at least one of them.

[nhp651]

There is now an amount of work and decision making before the sub deck and then the main decks are put on to the boats.

When I originally designed the Anne Letitia Russell kit 18 years ago I made the well decks under the cabins to be removeable with the cabin tops, for access to the motors, batteries and rc gear. As the model was only 41 inches long space was a little restricted, but with these 3 at 46" and 51" long, space is a little better.It also, in this arrangement gave rise to the fact that in rough weather it would be susceptable to water getting into the hull as there were no combings around the aft end of the cabin. Not ideal but at the time, that was the only solution I could come up with...years and time gained experience now say differently.

As such I decided to make the well decks as a  pemanent fixed fitting, but possible with a removable floor to get to anything I needed, and as such measured from the plans the size, shape of the sides and constructed from 3mm ply, including a removable deck of 1.8mm ply backed up to keep the floor straight and flat, with the 3mm piece removed from the centre of the original deck. I also decided to make the back panel of the rear well deck on all 3 models removeable to access the servo and rudder arm for maintainance.

This, once fitted would give access to parts of the hull.

However once fitted in place to see, ( at th4 moment on the Mary Stanford only which is the biggest of the trio ) I begin to wonder whether the access in those positions is really needed and whether I should just stick with fixed decks with no noles in them. It would make the model far more water tight for heavy weather sailing should one want to.

As you can see from the side views of the well decks they are angled to slide into the framework giving the floor the line of the sheer of the boat, particularly at the bow end of the boat.

The frame work in the boat is now set rock solid and as needed, sections of frames have been cut out to facilitate the insertion of the well decks, before the support sub frame is glued in, which in certain places overlaps the well decks.

What do you lot think?

This set of photos shows the process of cutting through the floor of the well deck ( it was an after thought I had once I'd glued the well deck together).
The cut out from the well deck has been mounted onto a false floor of 1.8mm ply.
This picture shows the shape of the forward well deck so that the floor of the deck follows the shear line of the boat.
The following photos show the fore well deck in position and also fitted.note that sections of frame work have been cut out to take the assembly.

All the parts are transfered to draughting paper for screen printing before gluing together.

And the last set of  4  are of the aft well deck.....note the access panel in the rear wall of the well deck for the rudder servo.

Side view of the rear well deck.


And finally an overall view of both well decks fitted. the long section in front of the rear well deck will be also access to the internals as this is covered by the engine casing.

[furball]

I wouldn't have thought that you'd need the extra access on the Mary Stanford, Neil, as the main engine cover is so large, unless you needed the access for the rudder servo/linkage - different with the other two however, as the engine covers are somewhat smaller.

One thing to think of, if you do have removable floors, is whether or not there'd be any fittings fixed to the side walls of the cockpits that would get in the way when you try and lift the floors out.

I modified the fore cockpit of the Duke of York to have a removable floor (I glued the base moulding to the hull - grand ideas of the model going down a slipway and things getting a bit soggy up forrard !),  and then came up with the problem of what to do with the steps which are normally glued to the walls - I had to arrange it so they were on upstands so they came out when the floor did.


Lance

[nhp651]

that's a good point Lance...at the moment I haven't looked too hard at what is on the side walls, and I haven't got a single picture yet of the inside cockpits of the field Marshal and Mrs Smuts, so don't know.
as you say, the Mary stanford has acres of space without the floors being lifted.. but have been working on the two Watsons today, and have luiterally just come in from the workshop..................will post pics later when I've had a bath.....my brain hurts...........need to go and soak it, lol....be back later.

[nhp651]

I have been working on the two Watson's today.

Both have a different set up and both needed careful planning and thinking about...like a grown up wooden jigsaw in 3D.

The H F Bailey was very similar to that set up of the Mary Stanford and all that was needed was to take measurements of the two diferent cockpit well decks and to make sure that they fit where they should, and with a little trimming and cutting of the frames, they settled in to position neatly, ready for gluing in place shortly.

The process will be written down step by step so that all aspects are covered for the builder, with help of diagrammes and photos.



below is the H F Bailey complete with well decks ( again the floors have been left as removeable at the moment, but this might change once put together with decks fitted.



I need the removeable deck on the rear cockpit on H F Bailey more than any other boat, because of the position of the rudder stock and where the servo will need to go to operate it.

[nhp651]

The well decks on the Field Marshal and Mrs Smuts however were a little more tricky and needed a little thought.

As on the H F Bailey, there is a bulkhead that has to fit into the cabin top without gaps, but this time is on the forward cabin, and patterns made of card were cut for it, gently slicing bits off the card to fit in the marked position once the cabin was on the deck......but this has to mate up with the well deck, and this is in a position where no supportive cross beams are available ( unlike the frames of the HF Baley and the Mary Stanford. So new "hangers" for want of a better word had to be devised and cut from 6mm ply, to both support the well deck ( as it isn't wide enough to fix and glue to the longitudinal beams) and were "in limbo" so to speak.

Also the deck cross beam in picture 2 marked "G" had to be removed in the central section to accomodate the well deck.

"Hangers" were measured,drawn and made and finally fixed to the position needed to support the forward well deck so that it's aft wall mated up with the forward bulkhead of the engine casing and the engine control bulkhead is in the correct position for the cabin.

The cabin , as near as lines will show is almost the same as the aft cabin of the Ann Letitia Russell moulding and so this, in a chopped down form at the aft end of the cabin is to be used and mated up with the aft cabin. However both will be removeable seperately, giving reasonably good access into the hull.

The pictures show a representative of the pieces cut ready to glue together to make one of the well decks on the F.M and Mrs S, and also show the aft well deck which is a similar build to any of the other cockpits that I have made for the other two boats.

[nhp651]

I have found since fitting the  servos on to the two Watson class boats that removeable floors in the rear well decks will be needed, but might have to be re designed before the drawings go off for printing, because of fittings both on the side walls of the cockpits and/or on the decks themselves, but this can be reworked once the well decks have been fitted.
However, the access to the servos is reasonable, and as servos are pretty reliable, it is envisaged that access won't be needed too often.

However the servo on the Barnett clas boat is well tucked away under a deck and as such a holder for the servo that is removeable is needed, and so, after trial and error and redesign a couple of times, I came up with a little holder that can be removed from the rear under deck space of the boat if need be.
first few photos show the positioning of the Watson servos and the last few show the servo and holder for the Barnett, which will be covered all but for the working head by decks.

[nhp651]

the well deck/cockpit surrounds have now been fixed permanently ready for the sub decks to be glued on.....hopefully tomorrow.

[furball]

You can never have enough clamps...


Lance

[nhp651]

I must lead a sad life, Lance........I collect them, lol........

could do with some nice 6' sash cramps...but they go for a fortune, even on car boot sales

[RaaArtyGunner]

So, in those couple of instances where  G cramps are shown, it is only because they were at hand and not for any specific purpose.


In OZ, there is a poor mans sash cramp, which consists of a couple of fitting that screw onto threaded galvanised water pipe.
 A "sash cramp of any length can be "assembled" in this way.

They are not a robust as the genuine article, but for some applications are quite adequate

[nhp651]

they were there for just that little bit extra grunt........the springs on the clamps are getting a little weak in old age and I wanted to hold them down firmly..

can you show me a picture of what you mean with scaffolding pipe....sounds interesting...just can't get my head around it though.
neil.

[RaaArtyGunner]

Neil,
Some photos more on google, images "pipe clamps for woodworking"
Basically you can transfer the components to whatever piping for the application at hand.

[nhp651]

they are amazing matey....I have NEVER  seen those anywhere over here at all.........but will certainly be looking from now on.
cheers,
neil.