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Author Topic: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.  (Read 322370 times)

nhp651

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2011, 10:30:32 am »

HOW do you build such beautiful boats in that rats nest,

that is a mystery to me also, Mick,  %% %% %%
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nhp651

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2011, 01:19:27 pm »

Well,............... So now I'll begin the build.

I'll be using photos of generic models to display my techniques, as I hadn't 6-7 years ago when I started building these moulds even heard of Model forums never mind joined them and so never took step by step builds of my models, and so will be using pics from different builds to illustrate what I mean.......please don't let me confuse you and if you need to ask questions then do ask.

Also I am always open to suggestions in order to improve my own techniques and knowledge. My way isn't the only way, but just the way I find easiest for my own buiding methods.so shout out loudly if you know a better way.

My intentions were when I designed my first lifeboat kit, was to bring a model to the public that even someone with limited experience and tools could actually built. I never expected someone to be able to diagonally plank a hull with complicated tunnels to line, or belting to construct on the bulwark edges of a classic lifeboat, nor did I expect someone to "plank" the cockpits of a classic lifeboat with thin strips of teak or mahogany to simulate those beautiful cabins, and so set about thinking how to make it easy for the modeller.

I also desided from the outset that the plans would be full exact size AND the instructions would be written by a modeller ( with the gift of the gab) for the modeller, in modelling terms.............and those concepts have remained with me to this day.......a boat easy to build with plans and instructions easy to read and understand. I hope that those concepts have born fruit, as I believe the Anne Letitia Russell (ALR as affectionally known ) is the highest selling model lifeboat on the market.....probably others will contradict, but hey ho.........I'm proud of her, and that is something that can't be taken from me.

So what did I decide about construction methods............I was going to make the hard bits from GRP and the rest of the build from good stout ply timbers and obeche'.

I had to begin somewhere and the first job was to construct a working plug of both the hull and the cabins out of some sort of material.

There have been numerous threads on forums as to what materials to use for a plug and believe me, I have probably tried all of them in my time, and will list, just for interest a couple of pro's and cons for each that I have used, but always remember that the finish you obtain on the plug, is the normally finished result on the master mould and the mouldings that go for sale to the public, and therefore if you want repetition of excellence you have to put in the time on the plug to attain this.just see here for what I mean....just astounding, but many many hours of hard work have paid off here. http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=31944.msg340701#new

1) keel and sections filled with polistyrene and skimmed with plaster of paris.........it's a quick initial method and a shape can be obtained easily, but it's messy, and I have never been able to get rid of the "ghosting" lines of the sections on the plugs and then an awfull lot of rubbing down on the master mould still leaves ghosting lines. My Interceptor 42' Pilot boat was made in this manner and the very faint lines could still be seen evenb after further work on the moulding that I took off for myself........I wouldn't use this method again.

2) solid bread and butter constructional carved hull in a timber such as obeche, samba or jelutong (balsa is far too soft a hardwood for this method in my opinion) has been used, and the finish you can get on these timbers as a plug is second to none.Modern pattern makers use these timbers now that Yellow pine ( the traditional timber for such) is virtually none existant at any reasonalbe price....last checked and it was twice the price of English Oak.I love this method on smaller hulls and the cabins, but on larger ones it becomes very unwealdy and heavy to turn around. However it is a method where the hull "stays where it is" .it doesn't twist in the process nor warp or bend and you get no distortion whilst building or carving.the only downside is that these wood's smell like old fish boxes when cut and carved....but living by the sea, that's an added bonus for me, lol. his can also be an expensive method of building

3) hollow bread and butter constructional carved hull, reasons are exactly the same as before, but less expensive if you jiggle the planks arround to get the greatest cuts from a board. Also the hull is far less heavy.heavy carving as with the method above also are tiring on the arms unless you use electric power carvers and planes to take off the vast amount of spare timber. But those two methods I strongly recomend.

4) there is a third method of this andd that is to set out on a building board the keel and frames, and then bread and butter each section, but this is a slow laborious method that I tried once, and to be honest it was a pain in the bum, and not to be recomended if you value your sanity.

5) use of MDF as a bread and butter "timber".yes, I have tried this method as well, and although some say that the dust caused can be a killer, ( literally as there are some who claim it is carsonagenic) it is the finish that is hard to achieve....No matter how many coats of varnish and sealant you put on MDF, as soon as you try to get a mirror like finish with wet and dry, used wet, the MDF soaks up the water you are using to lubricate the carborundum paper, and I found this method a pain also, and wouldn't recomend that either.

6) Every one's favorite method......POF or Plank on Frame with plenty of polyester filler to fill in the gaps.It is relatively quick and easy and I normally use obeche end blocks for the bow and stern, and this method is the one I used for the three boats I am going to build here.Because the plug isn'rt going anywhere other than the skip once you have produced the master mould from it, the planking can to some extents and purposes be as rough or as good as you want to make it, as long as you have plenty of filler to hand.It is a method that is light and easy to handle and also doesn't cost much to produce, unlike those B & B methods with Obeche and such, and for reasonable sized plugs, sop long as every thing is bolted down to a strong building board when construction is taking place to stop twisting, it is a good quick method., and usually gets my vote.

So on to the build itself.

First job is to get hold of a set of plans for the boat you want to build, including G A (general arrangement ) and line plans for the sections and keel, from which photocopies of the frame sections can then be cut and glued onto the ply wood boarding , and in this case 6mm birch faced ply.

Once cut these are mounted onto a base board to hold firm whilst planking. ( sorry but here are some generic models showing the sections and planking).

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nhp651

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2011, 01:59:08 pm »

Progressing on, the next part of the build is to detail the plug.

One of the most striking parts of the hull of an old classic lifeboat is the defence belting around the bulwark edge of the hull. This was placed around the boat to protect against coming along side a casualty ( read any old book on RNLI rescue and you will realise that even with these well built wooden boats this belting always took a pounding) and was built in layers, as is the belting on the model. It has to be cut semi through to take up the different curves of the hull shear line plus curviture of bow and stern.

Also placed on the hull at this stage are the markings for the "A" bracket positions, the Prop tube openings in the tunnels and the bilge keels.
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nhp651

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2011, 02:30:43 pm »

You'll see on the  next to last picture that the height deck of the boat has been raised by about 6,, with a piece of MDF. this goes all around the hull raising it. The reason being that when moulding the extension will give a mould a little higher than needed, and this is to give an edge to the mould that is full of resin, and not whispy or feathery as they can be when approaching the edge of a mould.

Some people  do, when moulding lay a full plate onto the top of the boat at deck level which allows you to mould onto it to form a flange from which you can trim the top of the hull.

Unfortunately with this mould, (as you will see later when I show pics of the moulds) you will see the reason why I can't do it on this 4 piece split mould.
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irishcarguy

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2011, 06:43:18 pm »

You know this is in pure fun & you have made yourself a very easy target, LOL. You are actually amazing at building, I wish I lived near you, I would have you really fired up, & I can guarantee if I was there the workshop would be organised. In our house I am the tidy one. My better half works on the layered effect, ie=anything that is flat can fit on top of anything else that is flat, how high it goes is optional. When she visits her mother a lot of things disappear,"no dear I never saw it" is my standard reply.The MOM visits have reduced a lot. This is going to be a thread for the ages, I can feel it coming on now. Again thank you. Mick B.
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Mick B.

nhp651

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2011, 10:47:43 am »

thanks mick...your good lady sounds like me, lolif there's a flat surface, I cover it, lol.....usually with dust, it waits so long %% %% %% %% %%
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nhp651

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2011, 10:48:24 am »

Well onto the next bit. The cabins............I try to work in time and motion mode and do the same sort of jobs all at the same time, and then if it's a nice job I enjoy it all and if it's a monotonous work then I get the monotony over in one fell swoop.

As I'm working on the belting and filling it to get the shape as shown on the profile from the plans, I start working also on the timber work for the plugs for the cabins. All my cabins are made from bread and butter solid timber. Obeche by preference, and I buy this from a local timber merchant......it seams that these days I am the only person in the area to buy the obeche from them, and although there is enough stock to last me my lifetime they haven't bought any now for more than 8 years.....it's well seasoned, and the best part about it is...they still charge me the price that it was when they bought it in 8 years ago......now that's a bargain, lol.............and it's about half the price of a relative piece of every day soft builders pine wood. Brilliant!!!

I cut the profile and plan of the timber for the shape of the cabins from a spare set of plans that I always copy to cut to pieces, I glue the cut boards for the cabins together using G cramps and spring clamps, and use an Aliphatic resin for a good bond, but I never plane the surfaces of the timber when I sandwich them together for gluing, just sand them lightly on the linisher.....I find no point as they will be filled anyway once set, and once the timber has been cut roughly to over size by a couple of mm all round to facilitate sanding, I set too with chisels, gouges and my favorite tool, my trusty spokeshaves....I have two sorts, a flat and a curved sole spokeshave, and wouldn't be without them for finer carving. I must point out here that I make the bottom thickness of the cabin overr sized in deapth to allow for moulding and also to allow shaping the bottom of the cabin to the sheer shape of the deck once fitted.

Once down to the good basic shape, any undulations or gaps in the timber is filled with polyester filler, and more sanding takes place with both power palm sander and hand held sheet , beginning with 40 grade grit, working down to a finer 120 grade.

Once the final shape is achieved I seal it with cellulose sealer, using many coats. This also goes for the hull which will have reached this stage also by now. Once the timber has been sealed, I give it multiple coats of filler spray and then grey undercoat from a spray can.

You can then see any minuter scratches left by the sanding and this can be filled with cellulose surface putty which is a scratch filler used by moror repair shops and avaiable at Halfords and such places. A tip here..you don't use a great deal when using on a model and it tends to gom hard in the tin once opened to air. after using it and putting it away for a while, I pour into the tin a thin layer of cellulose thinners. It keeps it nice and useable.

This is all now wet and dried down starting with 240 grade working up to 800 - 1000 grade carburundum paper, used wet to give a mirror finish to the plug. Finally it is given a couple of coats of polyurethane varnish which is again wet and dried down to give a good finish for moulding.......It all takes time but remember........... the finish that you get on your plug is the finish you have on the master mould, and is only as good as that plug with all the hard work. Moulds can be titivated up after wards, but there is no substitute for hard work. Estimated time to build a plug and cabins is around 140 hours from start to finish.the last shots shows the finish I try to aim for.

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carlmt

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #32 on: December 15, 2011, 05:20:03 pm »

Dont mind if I tag along for the ride do you Niel?

Having just started on this adventure myself, i am always keen to learn off the experts!!!!!

Not sure I could build the FEV plug out of solid wood though - my carving skills are not up to it..........but I am getting a very dab hand at applying filler and sanding it back off again.....

Carl

nhp651

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #33 on: December 15, 2011, 07:03:44 pm »

Dont mind if I tag along for the ride do you Niel?

Having just started on this adventure myself, i am always keen to learn off the experts!!!!!

Not sure I could build the FEV plug out of solid wood though - my carving skills are not up to it..........but I am getting a very dab hand at applying filler and sanding it back off again.....

Carl
of course you can Carl........and that's what your right hand is for.......applying plenty of filler.......I make no bones about it....where would I be without body filler.......a must for modellers.......long gone are the days of plastic wood, lol
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nhp651

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #34 on: December 16, 2011, 09:41:50 am »

After much work preparing the plugs for taking GRP it is now down to the preparation of making a mould capable AND SUITABLE of producing multiple mouldings before needing replacement.

It is imperative that on any plug, there is a good build up of a protective layer between the plug itself and the layers of GRP/polyester resin that go to make up the mould. Polyester resin will eat into any surface unless there is a barrier to stop it doing so and this process has to be halted when mould making or everything will just become one mass.

To stop this a first barrier is obtained by waxing the surface of the plug. this is done in subsequent layers of a release agent wax........not just any wax, as most use silicons in their make up, and this will react with the polyester resins and form a breakup of the surface layers that come into contact with a silicon based wax and this results usually in a rippling or orange peel effect. NO!, the release wax to be used is a special none silicon based product, and I buy mine (as all my supples from Glasplies in Southport: http://www.glasplies.co.uk/ )

Release agent wax:

I will usually give my plugs a minimum of 6 - 8 layers of this wax, polishing off thoroughly between each layer to build up a beautiful and resilient shine and coating on the plug.



Next job is to prepare my working area, and put my most important item in good clear view, for self explanetory reasons, as any distraction can cause mayhem, lol

I then arange a good clear working space with plent of access all round the plug and arrange my "tools of the trade".....my containers for resin, measuring bottle for catylist, weigh scales for resin , my stippling brushes, and my scissors for cutting the matting when needed. Some people use metal ridged rollers for rolling in the resin into matting, and although I have used them for larger projects in the past( 16' canoes) I tend to find that on a 51" mould they are more trouble than they are worth and so don't use them for close in work. However I do use a variety of thicknesses and sizes of brushes to get into tight little corners and gaps.
And finally the chart for calculating the amount of catylist per resin needed for each mix.

Next it will be on to preparation of the plug for actual moulding.

The table for catylist to hardener is set at recommended ratio fro working in an ambient temperature of 60 degrees farenhiet.......if working ina temperature lower than that then this can be increased by upto 15% with no ill effects to the moulding proceedure, but no more really as it will make the curing process "artificial" and a brittle cure can happen to the mould.


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nhp651

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #35 on: December 16, 2011, 10:12:29 am »

Oh yes, forgot to talk about the other important part of any mould.......the glass fibre matting.

Although woven matting is a lovely and neat way of making a mould with superb finish quality I myself have found it hard to work on smaller moulds...difficulties in getting round almost right angle edges and into sharp areas such as the bow and stern of a boat have caused me to dispense with this type of material and I tend to go for chopped strand matting, and use a 1 1/2 oz weight for my moulding purposes.

Even this I find a little thick for moulding round edges already mentioned, and what I do is (rather than buy the 1oz weight for the same cost)is to cut my matting into smaller manageable pieces that fit into the mould in places with odd shapes, and then split the matting to actually get two layers out of one. It gives me better impregnation of resin into the matting and less chance of air bubbles and "dry spots" in the mould.
This can make for a heavier mould as a little more resin is used, but personally I don't feel that to be a bad move at all.

and splitting the matting is an easy task!

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furball

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #36 on: December 16, 2011, 11:29:10 am »

How do you clean out your stippling brushes Neil? Or do you not bother and just get the DIY cheapies each time?


Cheers

Lance
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nhp651

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2011, 11:36:48 am »

they are cheapies, Lance, but being a tight squeekie sob, I wash them out in acetone after I have finished a section of a mould............( probably costs me more in acetone if I really sat down and thought about it...but not too cheap as the bristles come out .usually as I'm laying a gelcoat, lol...and that really is a bummer seeing a black hair in a lovely white gelcoat,  {:-{ {:-{ )they'll keep soft till you finish working, and then a thorough wash in the stuff, and let the brush dry thoroughly for a couple of days, AND use another brush for the next section or the acetone in the brush might react with the resin/gelcoat.......I keep two of each type on the go and use them alternately.
neil.
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nhp651

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2011, 12:56:10 pm »

MOULD BUILDING

The most important and most critical part of any mould making is to be able to remove the moulding from the mould as easy as possible. No matter how well prepared the moulds are with release wax and agent and no matter how smooth the mould is, the nature of the material that you are working with, poyester resin has a propensity and urge to stick to the "item" that it is laid up against, and if you are laying polyester resin against polyester resin then it will try to stick to it with gusto. And so you have to try to eliviate that problem as much as possible.

Professional mouldwers of high volume and large mouldings have the added luxuty of being able to separate mouldings from moulds by building into their moulds, pressure outlets that they can connect either warm water jets or compressed air in order to separate mould from mouldings.sadly the modeller doesn't have these luxuries and also tends to put onto his plug as much detailing as possible, which also hinders mould separation. As such the modeller has to use guile and some brute force, and unless a little physics is employed, he/she can ruin a mould first time he pulls a moulding out of the mould.

To this, we tend to use "split moulds", i.e. the mould is made in more than one part and then held together using bolts before laying up the moulding.

When I designed my first lifeboat  for moulding I had built into the plug the keel skegs ( later left off wioth subsequent models and added later in the build) and this posed a problem in that if I made the mould as just a two part split like most other model moulds, I wouldn't be able to extract the moulding because the tunnels, the bilge skegs AND  the protective belting would all act against each other and prohibit removal without either breaking the mould or breaking the bilge skegs off whilst removing the moulding from the mould.

carefull thought decided that the moulds would have to be, ( instead of a singler split down the centre) a three part split, giving a four part mould, and the second and third split would have to be along the centre line of the belting for to aft.
The diagram below shows the splits in the mould flanges and the black arrows show the direction of pull of the parts of the mould.

All my subsequent lifeboat hulls have since been built this way, and they "pop" out perfectly.
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nhp651

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2011, 01:13:48 pm »

Now, those "flanges" that form the splits to the moulds have to be moulded in to the moulds at the time of moulding and therefore something removeable has to be placed onto the plug in order to mould upto to form the flange.
The process is to make ( with such a four part mould) one quarter of the mould, usually the largest part ( and in this place the bottom half) and once it is set  then take the removeable flange away and then mould up to the (by now) set and cured grp flange.

The temporary flange is held onto the plug by foul means and fair. on such a long one as the Mary Stanford, I usually set up wooden battens at deck level to screw the ply or hardboard flange too and hold steady with a central support as in the photo. I back fill any gaps between the flange and the plug with moulders plastecine, and secure the flange to the plug with blue tack. see all photos for this set up.

the photos also show the flanges for the cabins, but because of their simplicity these are made just in a single split mould giving two halves.
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nhp651

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #40 on: December 18, 2011, 01:19:06 pm »

This is the finish between flange and plug that you are aiming for, to give a smooth edge to the mould to plug fitting.
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nhp651

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #41 on: December 18, 2011, 02:03:00 pm »

Now comes the actual messy work of Laying up a mould.

1) the plug, which has been pre waxed as mentioned before, has now to take a layer of PVA release agent......similar to a pva glue but much thinner, I tend to put some into a margarine dish and apply with a soft sponge giving an even layer. You will find that it bubbles and runs because of the wax, but with continued light rubbing with the sponge as the agent dries you will find that it will "wipe out" eventually and go on in an even coat. This is water soluable and the residue can be removed from the mould later with warm water. Allow this to dry thoroughly or it will react with the first coat of the moulding process giving a rippled orange peel effect.

2) A gelcoat has to be laid as the first layer and I personally like to colour it with a white pigment.really should colour it with a different colour to the actual white mouldings, but just my preference. This is the hard and protective outer/inner coating to the moulding/mould respectively, and must be covered by the layers of polyester resin/chopped strand mattings (as usually recomended by the manufacturers of the resins used) within 24 hours AT THE LATEST or de lamination might take place, as the resins bond to the gelcoat and make a good attachment.

3) I usually lay up my first layers of chopped strand matting to the gell coat within a couple of hours of the gel coat layer "gowing off"

I have my chopped strand matting cut to small usable pieces, split in to two layers, and mix about a pound - 2 pounds of resin at a time, and even in a warm workshop of about 18 - 20c I have time to use all that resin without it going off, giving a good working time.
Subsequent layers of matting/resin can be coloured with resin colouring pigment should the desire be there to do it...sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.




Stippling hard and none stop , working the matting into corners you aim for a good airtight and bubble free finish.

Picture below shows woring on the first half of the cabin up to the flange.
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nhp651

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #42 on: December 18, 2011, 07:50:10 pm »

These shots show the shape of the  longitudinal flange running along the length of the keel and the flange running around the centre line of the protective belting, with the gelcoat added for the first quarter mould.

Once the gelcoat had "gone off" and the matting and resin has been added, which I normally build up to around 4 -5 layers all over for a production mould(not for a moulding though which would be considerably lighter and thinner) it is left to cure for around 48 hours, and then the flange running around the belting ONLY is removed and the second quarter of the mould...the small part above the belting to the deck level, on the same side is moulded in exactly the same way as before.
This is why the deck has been extended upwards to give a little higher edge to the mould, and hopefully because it has been extended in the laying up process, will be well knitted together without any air bubbles on the edging, when trimmed back to the correct hight for trimming off the mouldings inside. You will now also see that to put a flat flange over all the deck to mould up to would be impractical with such a mould as this.
 
In these shots you can see the battening that holds the main flange to the plug running down the keel. it is screwed on so that it can be easily removed when the laying up process is done to one side of the boat plug.

However before this, the now new and exposed grp flange from the first quarter moulding is treated to the same preparation as the plug...5 - 6 layers of wax, rubbed down and then PVA release agent applied. This release agent can be seen in the next shot of the cabin both to be moulded and after the first half of the mould has been laid up.
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Norseman

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #43 on: December 19, 2011, 12:15:58 am »

Hi Neil

I am certainly taking notes - thanks for doing this thread. O0

Dave
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andyn

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #44 on: December 19, 2011, 12:23:49 am »

Of course the most important part of kit manufacturing is the white labcoat, it makes you feel far more intellectual when wearing it, especially when combined with goggles. Plus, being long it's a fantastic place to wipe dirty hands....

Andy (will show you what I'm on about tomorow ;) )
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nhp651

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #45 on: December 19, 2011, 12:27:08 am »

you obviously weren't taking notice of the lesson, then andy....

100 lines "I must look at the pictures more closely"......

i was wearing my special latex gloves......no dirty hands on me that day!! {-) {-) {-) {-) {-) {-) {-)
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andyn

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #46 on: December 19, 2011, 12:36:56 am »

Oh yes, I do too, however I still manage to get my hands and infact everything covered in pigment..... %)
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nhp651

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #47 on: December 19, 2011, 09:25:37 am »

in the immortal words of Captain Mainwaring......."you stupid boy"
I'm like that with RTV moulding rubber, lol
neil.
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andyn

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #48 on: December 19, 2011, 01:16:50 pm »

Like I said, makes you feel far more intellectual....

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john44

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Re: 3 Lifeboat builds, What goes into a model kit.
« Reply #49 on: December 19, 2011, 02:20:04 pm »

What no hair-net when using a pedestal drill tut, tut. {-) {-)
as for the fine adjustment tool well  8)
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