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[chingdevil]

I will put the Puffer aside and have a go at building one, timber on order as we speak.

The other Brian

[arrow5]

Will it be a Spruffer then  ?

[chingdevil]

Now this plan is easier to understand, the other plans I have seen are in old money. Tim is it OK to take a of copy this??

The other Brian

[toesupwa]

The plan looks good Wombat, especially for those that cant understand 'old money' measurement.

Are 1 1/2 inch props not available in Great Britain?, 38mm is close if imperial sizes are not available.

A Springer, to get it to the waterline, will handle two 6v 4.5mah gel cells. With a 7.2v pack, you will have to add LOTS of ballast to bring it down to the waterline. With twin gel cells, you also get the advantage of loads of running time, mine runs for nearly 2 hours from one charge.

[toesupwa]

Rules wise I am in agreement with the US rudder system so that is OK with me. 7.2v works well for me as an ex 1/10 buggy racer and currently a collector of them.

Just thought i would add...

My Springer takes two 6v 4.5mah gel cells plus ballast (approx 10 oz) to get it to sit down on the waterline. With a 7.2v 'car' pack, you will need to add loads of ballast to get it to sit down to the waterline
Another advantage with gel cells over a 7.2v pack, is that you get a far longer running time per charge. My Springer runs for some 2 hours on one charge.

[wombat]

Hi Guys,

Feel free Brian - I am thinknig that the plans should be in the public domain except for commercial use (if you are going to make money out of it then something should be paid to someone like the RLNI). I am planning expand the plans to include motor mounts and things and standard mountings for baqtteries and put the plans out in a more usable form. I will also make up cutting plans for all the piece parts defined. This should make a nice standard hull that someone can do as an easy project. I will also try to get them in an easier to use form - probably a PDF, though my PDF writer was spitting its dummy and making it difficult for me to get a PDF.

What would be good is if anyone builds from the plans asa they develop, the information on the build can be fed back to give a resource to make it as easy as possible for others to build the models.

I am going to ressurect the "FLoatingWonbat" webiste over Easter to act a resource on this, so we can publish plans and rules and things together based on the discussion over here on Mayhem.

Toesupwa, thanks for the comments - gel-cell would overcome the ballast problem - this is good to know. Anything to make the build simpler to handle. Hmmm, possibiities for an endurance class........ I suggested a 35mm prop as it seemed close to 1.5" - though 40mm would be as good. This would be coupled to a 5" M4 propshaft and then to the motor (cheap and cheerful).

Tim the Wombat

[kendalboatsman]

I visited Bob's Models yesterday for my Balsa so I can start building a Springer over the Easter weekend. Will have to "borrow" the 385 motor I set aside for my PBR build, mind you spent some time yesterday contemplating a scale water jet drive at 1/24 so might end up taking the shaft out of the PBR anyway.

Clive :)

[Bradders]

I have merged the topics and will try to consolidate them a bit as I have been getting queries etc about the definitive rules.

Hopefully we will end up with a plan in Imperial and Metric but both, but having a standard motor, power etc.

So the British Mayhem rules (if you all agree) are:
Construction
Size 18" (460mm) long, 8" (200mm) wide hull profile as per plans. Construction material, anything, any weight. No sharp corners on hull edge to stop damage to other boats in combat 
Superstructure
There must be a superstructure above the decks Min size 4"x4"x4" (100mm x 100mm x 100mm) whole or in parts, other than that whatever you like, tugs, warships, tanks, house, duck, sailing, no puffers!
Drive
Motor will be 540 (Speed 600) or less, any gears reductions clutches etc allowable but must not be used to steer the boat in any way. Any propshaft type Single propeller 11\2 inch (38mm) Dia.
Power
Max battery voltage 7.2v any battery type
Steerage
Any rudder arrangement including nozzles allowed, any shape or quantity however, max surface area (fixed or moving) not to exceed 4 Sq inches 2500 Sq mm.

[wombat]

Don't thionk I do agree, but depends what we want to achieve.

Will try to open up my ideas later

Tim

[chingdevil]

Hi Tim
I have not yet started to cut any timber but I will be working to your plan. It is much easier to read than others I have seen, I will let you know how it goes.

The other Brian

[arrow5]

Why no Puffers ?  Is this to be an English thing ?

[wombat]

Hi Brian,

Hang fire a little - if we set a LOA for the rules as 460mm then my plan does not meet that - the LOA is 450mm. This is because I took the 18" of the original and used a spacing of 25mm for the construction lines. If we go for 460mm which is closer to the original, we will have to remark up the original - this is no biggie - maybe I will do that update for giggles.

Alternatively, we could say something like:

Hull to meet either the US or Metric Springer plans.

I think that we need to decide what we want to achieve with the rules - do we want a set of rules which give nominally similar boats. If we do, I think we need to be more definitive.

To keep in with the spirit of the original I think we should standardise on a prop size - I would say 35mm or 40mm with a maximum of three blades. THis will result in a smaller motor - say a 380 or 400

Power - maximum 7.2V agreed. All boats to be ballasted to a defined waterline.

I think we could have 2 classes:

Restricted - all rules apply, this gives a more level playing field
Unrestricted - the basic hull outline is to be used, but more freedom in drive - bigger motors, korts, bigger props. Though I would say nothing extending below the lowest part of the main hull

I wonder if we should make superstructure fully optional - though if no superstructure is provided a deck and hatch must be included.

TtW

[arrow5]

Please children , no bickering. As the orignal poster in this thread all I wanted to know was "Is anyone building Springers in UK?"  IMHO the rules are there, why change them ?  Metric ? It is only a measurment, it could be fractions of a league, or a rod or a chain. Kort nozzles, water jets, multiple rudders etc.,  it aint a Springer if it isnt a Springer.  It is not as if we`d got a Ford Mustang from the US and HAD to put a Jaguar engine in it.  The basic design isnt so American that we Brits cant stand to look at it and have to change it. The motors, batteries, radios are just universal standard boat modelling gear available everywhere. But my final complaint and the moderator will I`m sure post some pictures for me is the last straw. I say the only thing we should change is from the waterline up.  End of rant.

[arrow5]

Very rational Wombie, but give me a good reason for ANY changes. Optional superstructure, I hope you mean optional style not a "Flatty" ie just a hatch lid. Surely there are plenty of rulers and measuring tapes in inches still available.

[wombat]

Nobody is bickering but were trying to have a civilised discussion.

<quote>IMHO the rules are there, why change them ?</quote>
Because there are issues in transferring them from one zone to another - for example the US rules say a 1.5" prop - so do we decide to use the nearest metric equivalent or do we insist that to meet the rules we have to get props specially made or imported.

<quote>Metric ? It is only a measurment, it could be fractions of a league, or a rod or a chain.</quote>
<quote>Surely there are plenty of rulers and measuring tapes in inches still available.</quote>

There speaks someone who has not had to deal with different measurements systems. If you are happy to put up with awkward conversions then fine, but if you are trying to get a simple system suitable for beginners, then you have to make the measurements as simple as possible unless you can provide full size templates. The point of my suggestions is to make it as simple as possible - the fact that we are looking at the thing suggests we see the value and the strength of the design, but there are issues to be resolved if we are to make it in the UK what it is in the US because of differences in details.

TtW

[Martin (Admin)]

Hi All,

Still here.....

Hopefully Bradders metric measurements are 'as-near-as dam-it' to imperial, in keeping with the 18 x 8 inch hull plan.
We spoke at length (argued) about rudders and feel that with ingenuity can be encouraged by allowing any rudder arrangement but restricting the total area to 4" square (25 Sqcm).
To encourage the RC car fraternity to 'have a go', standard 6 call battery sticks (7.2v) and 540 / Speed600 motors should be allowed.
Superstructure rule..... well wouldn't it be better for owner and public moral if the thing at least look like a boat or just funny? ..... A "flatty" doesn't look like anything and to enter any even, you should made to stick something silly on it, like a plastic decoy duck.....  ::)
There is of course no reason why the your superstructure shouldn't be interchangeable! 

Having just spoken to Wombat on the phone, we feel that there should could to 2 classes, restricted and unlimited.

Restrited class:
18" x 8" inch hull size and floor shape as per plan.
Single Motor up to 540 size ( gearing etc. allowed )
Up to 7.2 volts
SINGLE RUDDER BLADE TYPE up 4" Sq.
Must have a superstructure of some sort.

Unlimited Class:
As above except;
Any rudder arrangement up 4" Sq.
SINGLE MOTOR but any propeller arrangement you can invent.



..... and yes Puffers allowed! Bradders was having a dig at me for taking so long to finish Jan's Puffer.  :(

Here's Arrow5's Puffer Springer!

Martin.

[wombat]

I take the point about the superstructure making the look of the thing - but again if we are looknig at a good beginners boat, should it be something to be insisted on, or should we allow a "flattie" to be acceptable. Looking at the two sheet rules (unless I have missed an additional set of rules) I think it is ambiguous in how it is read - is it the design of the deck and superstructure design optional in that one has to have a superstructure but that can it can be of any design, or is the presence of superstructure optional (i.e. a flattie is a design option).

If we follow the US rules the size of the prop is given - this would, by extension, give a useful limit on the size of the motor.

Voltage for the motors - here I disagree with the wording of the US rules - I would prefer 6V SLA or 7.2V NiCd/NiMh as the voltages vary. Maybe that is picky of me, but since a fully charged 6V SLA gives more than 6V

Point of information 4sq" is approx 25 sqcm.

TtW

[arrow5]

Thanks for posting the hackle-rising McPuffer pics Martin (thought you were on a break) very droll. Do I have to follow the motor installation you`ve provided    Wombie I`m sorry I didn't know that Imperial size props were`nt available in the UK, I`m not a boaty.  Motor and batteries are also a mystery. My other model has a 5hp two stroke motor. I have never had any problems with  converting litres to pints or miles to kilometres in Europe . Beginners are not all the product of new maths and 12 year olds who were never taught Imperial. Although it would be good to get a few more teenagers(of all ages) into modelling and this I think is the appeal of the Springers. You are doing a good job keep it up and keep it simple. Superstructures seen on the first pics on the RCGroups Springer thread show how simple or how complex they can be. They are a must, flatties are in the fast racers dept. Some humour in interpretation allowed to keep the class light-hearted, cartoon scale if you like. Dont forget the Barge pushing aspect, we might have to compete against other European countries, Netherlands and Germany come to mind.  R/C ducks are another class I think. I even proposed a Racing Duck event once...didnt happen.

[wombat]

Hi Arrow5,

Hey, no sweat - this has been a very civilised disagreement, no teeth have been swept up yet....you should try some of the Christian forums

I think that one has to accept that feet and inches and working in fractions is something that is alien to some - if you haven't been brought up with it it becomes very difficult visualise - bitter experieince tells me if the dimensions are in alien units it is very difficult to visualise what the lengths actually are and you cannot easily see when the errors creep in.

Wom

[Bradders]

Blimey chaps, I didn't mean to stir up a hornets nest...

I think the original design is fine and if we have plans available in both measurements then that can only be a good thing. I probably should have read up more on the American rules but to me this seems like a simple design that anyone can build from any type of wood and, if built within some simple guidelines, could possibly be used in some simple competitions with like minded souls.
I wanted to build one to take to the mayhem weekend along with a couple of other Mayhemers to play some water football or something similar, maybe having a 'Springer cup' up for grabs or similar.
After chatting with Martin we thought it would be good fun to have various deck options, I actually fancied building an springer Ark Royal, and yes I know this is not like a proper American springer but thought it would add a bit of fun and ingenuity.

Sorry if I have this all wrong and out of context, I'll stop interfeering and get back to checking for swearwords on the forum.
Bradders

[arrow5]

Great, but just don't expect me to accept the 25 hour day , 5 day week, 5 week month and 15 month year and all that modern stuff. The Luddites were right ! My steam powered type writing machine has converted this message into electrons  for your benefit. Voices through wires ...Pah !

[arrow5]

Hey Hey, I threatend to do a RO1/24  an SPRINGVINCIBLE first. >:(....BTW maybe I`m on the wrong thread, I`m talking about SPRINGERS not Spingers ( sounds like a swearword to me) ::)

[wombat]

Well, here is a little update.......

Outline for the side profile of the hull in botlh old and new money - differences between the two got down to about 1mm or so.

Wom

[toesupwa]

As an ex Brit that has built a couple of these Springers over in the US of A, may i make a few comments on the 'provisional' UK rules?

1/ Why change the existing rules, except for imperial to metric?..

2/ The metric hull measurement compared to the imperial hull is to within mm's, i dont think the difference is that noticable.

3/ A superstructure is good, but not essential. There is a Springer in the US that just has a 'golf green' as a 'top!. The fun is creating a superstructure that is to your liking and yet is recognisable.

4/ Motor should be whatever you have spare in your bits box. A Springer at speed acts like a submarine.. so a faster Springer can be a dissadvantage!. As long as you dont exceed the permitted voltage (see other comments) Gear reduction is allowed in the US, as long as the motor / gearbox etc, results in a single, non steerable 3 bladed prop.

5/ 1 1/2 inch prop or closest metric equvalent.. either is allowable

6/ As I've mentioned before here, a Springer, to bring it down to the waterline takes two 6v 4.5 ah SLA batteries.. and some additional ballast (mine needs an additional 10 oz!) to get one to sit at the waterline. Two 6v 4.5ah batts weighs in at 1.8kg / 3.6lb compared to less than a lb for a 7.2v batt pack.... so be prepared to add at least  3lb of lead if you go the 7.2v route!..
6v SLA's will also give you longer running times by the way.

7/ Rudders / korts have been discussed over on the US RC Groups site..

For those that havnt been there..
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=522762
.. there are some 46 pages on Springers!.

..and even though a kort is possible within the 4 sq inch rule / 25 Sq mm., its impracticle (sp)  because it ends up less than 3/4" / 19mm wide.. and is virtually ineffective.

8/ More than one rudder is allowable, however they should not exceed the 4 sq inch rule / 25 Sq mm (in total area) rule. As my Springer turns almost on itself with a 'standard' rudder, i think more than one rudder may actually be a disadvantage, except when going astern...

I hope my comments are taken as constructive.

I'm looking forwards to seeing some of your 'builds'!..

[toesupwa]

Just done some checking on UK prices for 6V 4.5Ah SLA's...

Maplins have them for under 6.00! (sorry, US keyboards dont have a pound sign 'key'!) and a suitable charger for under a tenner!

http://www.maplin.co.uk/SEODynamicPages/module.asp?ModNo=19363#prices

[bigford]

hey toes
 
   leave it to the british to mess up a simple usa build 
 

[wombat]

hey toes
 
   leave it to the british to mess up a simple usa build 
 

Having integrated US ans Swiss equipment don't go there.......Very different approaches to what the drawing says

Wom

[FullLeatherJacket]

Toesupwa (what a strange handle.....)
Try this link for SLA's:
http://www.component-shop.co.uk/html/lead-acid.html
The company is Welsh but I think they'll supply the English as well (I'm not sure about the USA, though).

Bigford
Brittania waves the rules, OK?

Wombat
Have you got your hull lines drawing in CAD format (eg DWG or DXF)? If so, any chance of a copy of the file?

FLJ (No relation to Mr ArmouredDinnerJacket)

[arrow5]

Do they mention export to Northern Britain, better known as Scotland ?  (best biking roads in the country)

[toesupwa]

Toesupwa (what a strange handle.....)
Try this link for SLA's:
http://www.component-shop.co.uk/html/lead-acid.html
The company is Welsh but I think they'll supply the English as well (I'm not sure about the USA, though).

You can get SLA's over that side of the pond CHEAPER than i can get them over here in the US of A!!!!

Toesup... and its not a strange handle from where i am sitting 

[anmo]

Toesup... and its not a strange handle from where i am sitting 

No problem, on this forum you can call yourself more or less what you like, but what I think Mr Jacket was referring to is that here in the UK, 'Toes Up' usually means DEAD.

[toesupwa]

Coming originally from the UK, i can see where the confusion lies....  , but i dont think i am quite dead yet.. 

'toesup' comes from drinking too much ethanol based beverages and falling over backwards... 'Wa' is Washington State, where i was based when i moved over here

[wombat]

Wombat
Have you got your hull lines drawing in CAD format (eg DWG or DXF)? If so, any chance of a copy of the file?

FLJ (No relation to Mr ArmouredDinnerJacket)

Sure have FLJ - anyone who wants a copy feel free to PM with an e-mail

Wom

[wombat]

AS an update, before I get the Springer sectoin of the website going, there is a crude link on www.floatingwombat.me.uk to download the lines as a zip file with DWG, DXF and E2 files in it.

Wom

[arrow5]

Thanks, do you have it in Gaelic ?    Meandering through Mayhem I came across www.tugboats.de a veritable goldmine of pictures of European prototypes suitable for "Springerisation". Modern, olden, colourfull, Dutch, German, British, Danish etc. No need to be USA style unless you want. You`ll be there a while making choices.