Topic: Flags and political correctness... (Read 1566 times)

U-33 · « **on:** May 14, 2012, 08:57:31 AM »

I'm in the thinking stages of building another German WW11 U-boat, and remembering the arguments and verbal threats I received when displaying U-117 at Brighton a good few years back, I'm giving serious thought to the displaying of the Kriegsmarine Ensign, and the various kill pennants that U-boats would fly when returning to port after a successful mission.

It's not only U boats, I've seen battleships with the swastika painted on the bows, huge battle ensigns flying...and I've also seen German warships with a red flag and white circle in it...no swastika at all.

So...chaps, what's your thoughts on this? Would you fly the battle ensigns that your prototype would have flown? Or would you bow to PC and fly either nothing, or a truncated version?

essex2visuvesi · « **Reply #1 on:** May 14, 2012, 09:44:19 AM »

It's a difficult question that one!

I for one have no qualms about decking my models with the correct flags/insignias, whatever country they are from. But for public exhibition I dont know.... I was at a Model railway exhibition a while back and there was much heated discussion about wether the chaps German Steam layout was in bad taste or not.

klunk · « **Reply #2 on:** May 14, 2012, 11:10:14 AM »

As far as i am aware, its illegal in the UK to put the correct insignia on models. But it is illegal to show a full size swastika in public. Germany and France its totally different. Its illegal to even do models correctly i believe..........but i stand to be corrected by someone who knows better

Colin Bishop · « **Reply #3 on:** May 14, 2012, 11:23:33 AM »

You are saying everything is illegal!

I think it is only illegal in Germany.

Colin

Neil · « **Reply #4 on:** May 14, 2012, 11:28:47 AM »

Quote from: U-33 on May 14, 2012, 08:57:31 AM

I'm in the thinking stages of building another German WW11 U-boat, and remembering the arguments and verbal threats I received when displaying U-117 at Brighton a good few years back, I'm giving serious thought to the displaying of the Kriegsmarine Ensign, and the various kill pennants that U-boats would fly when returning to port after a successful mission.

It's not only U boats, I've seen battleships with the swastika painted on the bows, huge battle ensigns flying...and I've also seen German warships with a red flag and white circle in it...no swastika at all.

So...chaps, what's your thoughts on this? Would you fly the battle ensigns that your prototype would have flown? Or would you bow to PC and fly either nothing, or a truncated version?

Rich, it was a long time ago, and although we should never forget, there should hopefully be forgivenness, and if a model flies such pennants or wears a Swastika on bow and stern like Bismark I think it in appropriate that they should be left off just for the sake of cow towing to the PC brigade of the world.
after all, we fought a war against the IRA in the 1920's over the separation of the Republic of Ireland.....but no one would question you putting an Irish tricolour on one of your boats if registered or sailing into a port.........and I don't see any difference in the two at all.
neil.

RAAArtyGunner · « **Reply #5 on:** May 14, 2012, 11:34:33 AM »

After all, aren't we representing a model of the real thing in all its glory, flags and all??????????????

So fly all the flags and emblems.

Our armoured modeller colleagues don't have such qualms so why model boaters

dougal99 · « **Reply #6 on:** May 14, 2012, 12:37:50 PM »

At the Dortmund shows I have been to (several over the past 7 years) you do not see the swastika openly displayed. If it is on a model it is usually covered (not too well in some cases). I understand, particularly with models on public display, that no action is taken unless a member of the public complains. So it is illegal in Germany for public display but they don't get over excited about it in my experience.

TheLongBuild · « **Reply #7 on:** May 14, 2012, 01:17:55 PM »

Quote from: U-33 on May 14, 2012, 08:57:31 AM

So...chaps, what's your thoughts on this? Would you fly the battle ensigns that your prototype would have flown? Or would you bow to PC and fly either nothing, or a truncated version?

Yes, and I would and stuff the pc Brigade.. Its amazing what some people can get into a tizzy about..at shows and on Forums.

even if it portrays an actual period model.

thunderchild · « **Reply #8 on:** May 14, 2012, 01:28:08 PM »

Good Day All

I have an E Boat, with correct period Kriegsmarine Ensign, It's part of history, It may not have been nice, but it happened, people can't change history by omitting symbols.

Richard

Bob K · « **Reply #9 on:** May 14, 2012, 01:41:27 PM »

To take political correctness to extremes, you might just as well say that to produce such a model in the first place may give rise to offense in some quarters. The same could equally be said of building an Argentine or even a Russian ship.

However, if you are building a German or other similar ship it should be built accurately in every detail. Very few of the brave men who served in them were supporters of Hitler's misguided ideals, they were serving their country and should be respected.

essex2visuvesi · « **Reply #10 on:** May 14, 2012, 02:25:23 PM »

Quote from: Bob K on May 14, 2012, 01:41:27 PM

However, if you are building a German or other similar ship it should be built accurately in every detail. Very few of the brave men who served in them were supporters of Hitler's misguided ideals, they were serving their country and should be respected.

A very good point and often overlooked in this kind of discussion.... My late grandfather served in the Afrika Korps. Not through choice. As he said there was an alternative and it was even less pleasant.

bikerdude999 · « **Reply #11 on:** May 14, 2012, 04:23:37 PM »

Sod them! It was part of the real ship so it should be part of the model. This country has done some pretty awful things, but no one complains about a model flying our flag...

Colin Bishop · « **Reply #12 on:** May 14, 2012, 04:27:53 PM »

Quote

Sod them!

Sod who?

U-33 · « **Reply #13 on:** May 14, 2012, 04:35:45 PM »

Well, it would seem to be a 'no brainer' (note the use of street wise words there....I'm cool) to spoil the ship for the lack of a flag.

I'll go with the correct insignia's then...but just be on the safe side, I'll make the flag poles removable, so if anyone does take umbridge it won't be a second's work to whip them out.

Back when the mad Scotsman went for me at Brighton Modelworld for displaying a Kreigsmarine battle ensign on the wintergarden of U-117, I was thirty years younger and thirty years healthier...telling him to **** *** and then calling security was an ok thing to do. Nowadays, removing the flag poles will leave me exhausted...

Thanks gents, some very interesting reading and some good points too.

Rich

CF-FZG · « **Reply #14 on:** May 14, 2012, 07:31:54 PM »

Quote from: klunk on May 14, 2012, 11:10:14 AM

As far as i am aware, its illegal in the UK to put the correct insignia on models. No it's not
But it is illegal to show a full size swastika in public. Not sure on this one, but I don't think it is
Germany and France its totally different. Agreed for full size, but you've forgotten Italy
Its illegal to even do models correctly i believe..........but i stand to be corrected by someone who knows better In Germany yes, Italy not sure about, but France it wasn't a problem when I lived there - as long as it was a competition

Mark.

RAAArtyGunner · « **Reply #15 on:** May 14, 2012, 10:28:07 PM »

The ridiculousness and absurdity of being politically correct, who ever devised such a phrase, is clearly illustrated in that, this debate/commentary has no bearing in Australia which like the UK fought in the wars in question.

So a Aussie modeller (or other country, non EU), enters an open competition in the UK with no removable flagpoles etc etc, shock horror drama, how stupid is that.

NickelBelter · « **Reply #16 on:** May 14, 2012, 11:48:40 PM »

Nobody has a problem with the hammer and sickle flying from a model and the Soviets killed twice as many as the Nazis.

RAAArtyGunner · « **Reply #17 on:** May 14, 2012, 11:53:24 PM »

And to take it one step further, Japan and their atrocities, so don't fly the rising sun???????????????

Enough said, fly the flags, pennants, emblems etc.

tassie48 · « **Reply #18 on:** May 15, 2012, 10:29:48 PM »

I build Jap ships

tassie48 · « **Reply #19 on:** May 15, 2012, 10:36:12 PM »

I build Jap WW2 warships and German WW2 warships and fly the correct flags on all my models have done for over 40 years now had many a run in with others in regards to them i do not give a s... to what is said my models show a date and time and i do not take sides as to whom was the worst party in any war as a ex vet of a couple of wars water of a ducks back DO THE MODEL PROUD FLY THE FLAG what ever the model tassie48

RAAArtyGunner · « **Reply #20 on:** May 15, 2012, 11:36:27 PM »

Quote from: tassie48 on May 15, 2012, 10:36:12 PM

I build Jap WW2 warships and German WW2 warships and fly the correct flags on all my models have done for over 40 years now had many a run in with others in regards to them i do not give a s... to what is said my models show a date and time and i do not take sides as to whom was the worst party in any war as a ex vet of a couple of wars water of a ducks back DO THE MODEL PROUD FLY THE FLAG what ever the model tassie48

HUNTER · « **Reply #21 on:** May 16, 2012, 06:54:21 AM »

Quote from: U-33 on May 14, 2012, 08:57:31 AM

I'm in the thinking stages of building another German WW11 U-boat, and remembering the arguments and verbal threats I received when displaying U-117 at Brighton a good few years back, I'm giving serious thought to the displaying of the Kriegsmarine Ensign, and the various kill pennants that U-boats would fly when returning to port after a successful mission.

It's not only U boats, I've seen battleships with the swastika painted on the bows, huge battle ensigns flying...and I've also seen German warships with a red flag and white circle in it...no swastika at all.

So...chaps, what's your thoughts on this? Would you fly the battle ensigns that your prototype would have flown? Or would you bow to PC and fly either nothing, or a truncated version?

Hi Mr H.
Screw PC - Of course you should present the correct flag(s) with your model. I know how good a quality you build your models. i remember the incident at Brighton well too!
Also, don't forget, I sell all of the BECC flags etc.
Mr S

essex2visuvesi · « **Reply #22 on:** May 16, 2012, 07:15:37 AM »

Looking at it in perspective, some of the other countries might not of found the English methods too pleasant back in the colonial days either.....

Netleyned · « **Reply #23 on:** May 16, 2012, 08:28:56 AM »

Political Correctness

How can anything remotely connected to the current political rabble called a Government be described as correct.?

Ned

unbuiltnautilus · « **Reply #24 on:** May 16, 2012, 09:27:10 AM »

Whitewashing over history, thats my view of this PC garbage. It happened, it was a terrible period in history, the British have also presided over some of these periods.
I feel this would be another step towards the 'what war?' attitude creeping into some societys. Lest we forget.

dodgy geezer · « **Reply #25 on:** May 16, 2012, 10:56:38 AM »

The reason that I get terribly upset about political correctness (and all other forms of social pressure) is that it stops people thinking for themselves.

I believe that there should be no 'banned' areas of thought, and that people should decide what they think and be prepared to justify this in argument if necessary. This is the best way to find out if something is true or false. The minute you start saying that you will 'bow to political correctness', you are really saying that you won't support your own ideas any more, but will let someone else do your thinking for you.

That attitude lies behind much of what is wrong with current politics. If people were more engaged in what was being done in their name, I think that a lot of the sillier policies we have seen over Mid-Eastern wars, green issues and Health/Safety would have been much harder to steamroller through....

arrow5 · « **Reply #26 on:** May 16, 2012, 11:13:30 AM »

Strange that the Olympic torch hasn't been eliminated by the PC brigade, it is a Nazi invention for the 1936 games, not an ancient Greek tradition.

funtimefrankie · « **Reply #27 on:** May 16, 2012, 01:47:11 PM »

Most of this stuff about PC correctness, Health and safety etc are just myths, perpetuated by people who don't bother to check their facts.
Look at the Health and Safety web sight to see these myths exposed.

From a post higher up......."its illegal in the UK to put the correct insignia on models"............ says it all

Colin Bishop · « **Reply #28 on:** May 16, 2012, 02:12:34 PM »

Quote

is that it stops people thinking for themselves.

You mean they actually started.....?

RAAArtyGunner · « **Reply #29 on:** May 17, 2012, 12:40:07 AM »

Quote from: Colin Bishop on May 16, 2012, 02:12:34 PM

You mean they actually started.....?

I thought everyone did it everwhere like we do here in OZ

irishcarguy · « **Reply #30 on:** May 17, 2012, 05:56:19 AM »

I just go my merry way & ignore it all, that really gets the thought police in a tizzy.We have a bad habit of giving people like that way too much power. When they annoy me I have some very nasty words I use that can't be repeated here in case they would cause another melt down of the forum, Mick B.

arrow5 · « **Reply #31 on:** May 17, 2012, 09:56:14 AM »

Olympic torch Nazi origins on BBC Breakfast programme this morning...ooh er

funtimefrankie · « **Reply #32 on:** May 17, 2012, 10:31:58 AM »

well if I followed the story correctly. carrying the torch was first agreed in 1934. and it just happened to be Germany that were the first to implement the idea. being the next host.

arrow5 · « **Reply #33 on:** May 17, 2012, 10:49:49 AM »

Hmmm, and which party was in power in Germany in 1934? Wikipedia has a good write-up about this. The Nazi propaganda machine loved the connections to the ancient Germanic myths knights and so on. Aunty Beeb probably had to put a slight spin on the facts to suit the English..., sorry London jamboree

Raymond · « **Reply #34 on:** May 17, 2012, 12:45:27 PM »

I remember seeing a program somewhile back which said the olympic rings were a nazi invention for the 1936 olympics,and the nazi's linked the design to some ancient ayrian master race.As for fitting the flags etc.fit them,if any one complains tell them where to go,you can't change history no matter how bad it was.

News:

Author Topic: Flags and political correctness... (Read 1566 times)