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[flashtwo]

Hi Mayhemers,

Having been more than pleased with the performance of  my experimental steam boat “Vital Byte” at Wicksteed last weekend (Martin even gave me a trophy for the most persistent project! I felt most honoured) , I am now planning to build a “proper” boat to put the steam plant in.

Currently the steam plant is a Stuart D10, a 250sq.inch monotube boiler, twin electric feed pumps (with feed from the lake) and an oil separator / feed heater. The D10 powers a 5 inch prop supplied by Propshop for the D10 engines. The whole lot is computer controlled.

I have plans from Selway Fisher (SF) for their Edwardian 30ft steam launch (5 drawings plus their book on strip planking).

I have scaled the boat around the 5 inch prop and the boat length ends up as 6ft 3 inches (1890mm), which will just fit in the car.

The current plan is to build a strip plank hull from cedar, outer veneer in mahogany (sapele?), glass fibre the inner, then fit ash ribs, stringers etc.

The SF plans include the mould board and building jig dimensions as well as cabin details.

I’ve read, with interest, Patternmaker’s Wide-awake and Ted Welding’s Natterer threads and their high standards are  bit daunting – anyway it was a challenge to build the steam plant and I will persist with this build.

I’ve just got the wood for the mould boards and building jig.

Any advice will be MOST welcome!

Ian

[frazer heslop]

Good luck with you're build. The S.F plans are very good to work from just keep an eye on the over all weight
kind regards Frazer

[KNO3]

Good news. However building such a large boat might also have disadvantages, especially when you want to move or just store it. Perhaps your steam plant and prop would also fit a smaller vessel?
How long is the vital Byte?

[flashtwo]

Hi Mayhemers,

Just an update with photos. "Vital Byte" is 5 ft and displaces 32kg (72lb) including ballast so any new build that is lighter will be a godsend.

I've spent the last few months building the jig and mould boards and earlier this month started strip planking the hull following the Selway Fisher instructions.

A lot of attention was given to ensuring the mould boards were accurately cut, bevelled (spiled?) and aligned on the building jig, before commencing with the planking.

I've completed the planking and the hull is being scraped (not scrapped!) of the excess epoxy prior the application of the first layer of sapele veneer.

The photos show the completed jig with mould boards, the fan tail stern, the scarfing jigs for the planks and hog, the mould boards with drafting tape fitted to stop the epoxy sticking to the boards, the method of clamping the planks and a shot of the work progressing.

You can gauge the scale of the boat compared with the “Workmate” bench.

Ian

[steamboatmodel]

Ian it looks great so far, but my backpacks at the thought of moving something that size. You must have a lot of good friends when it comes to launching "Vital Byte" at five feet and 32kg (72lb). We had a fellow who had a six foot long tanker model that weighted around that and it was amazing who would stay around to help unload launch and reload it in his station wagon. I have a couple of models around 50" and that is large enough for me unless I am going to ride in it.
Regards,
Gerald.

[flashtwo]

Hi Gerald,

Yes, Vital Byte is a bit (actually 8 bits!) of a handful, but I use a small fold-up sack trolley to launch and recover the boat; the photograph shows Alan Rayman is who the co-author of “Experimental Flash Steam” inspecting the boat.

Ian

[flashtwo]

Hi Mayhemers,

Still more photos showing the progress of the Edwardian Steam Launch.

The first shows the completed strip plank construction after cleaning off the excess epoxy.

The second is of the fantail stern, which was a difficult area to lay the strips evenly, due, I think, to a misalignment between the last few mould boards and the horse-shoe shaped inwale frame. This area had to filled with thick epoxy and sanded to get the right form.

The third is a shot of the bow, again showing that some filling was required.

The forth is a shot with “Vital Byte” as a comparison – I suspect the elegant launch will glide through the water rather than “bulldoze”!

The remaining shots show that the veneer has been fitted “dry”. The veneer will be removed and refitted with epoxy.

Just over one sheet of sapele veneer ( 113 x 18 inches – 2.8 x 0.46m, 0.6mm thick) has been used at this stage. The veneer is laid at 45deg to the strip plank, although towards the stern, the angle had to be changed, since the 25mm veneer strips were starting to run in line with the cedar planking.

The next layer of veneer is to be horizontal to give a carvel construction appearance.

Ian.

[gondolier88]

Looking good, having been on two of the full size 'Edwardian' designs, although both were stretched to 30ft, I'm looking forward to seeing this completed.

SF's designs always have a little too much displacement to my eye, the D10 will have its work cut out, but at least it will be doing some proper work.

Greg

[flashtwo]

Thanks Greg,

Yes, this is based on the "stretched" 30ft version plans that SF built for a South African vineyard owner.

The new launch's performance will be interesting compared with the primitive hull of "Vital Byte". What do you mean by "too much displacement" - is it the shape?

I suppose what I'm trying to achieve is not so much speed, rather than an elegent and luxurious application of steam power that you don't get with anyother craft. The Edwardian period of steam pleasure boats seems to encompass that tone. Also, it is a type of craft where the steam plant can be legitimately displayed in all its motion.

I wonder if you can help me on a few points - in the SF manual it describes the launch as having a "deep forefoot" on the bow - what does that mean? And, also, what is the correct description of the bow shape - is it a schooner, Thames launch, Windermere launch, etc?

Ian

[SailorGreg]

At the risk of going off at a slight tangent, I don't think you can have "too much displacement" in a design - the displacement is what it is, and I am sure Paul Fisher knows what his designs weigh and draws his hull lines accordingly.  I suspect what Greg means is that the SF designs tend to be heavily built rather than lightweight and slender.  (Having built one of his designs at full scale I'm not sure I agree with that.)
The forefoot is that part of the bow where the stem curves back to become the keel.  If this part is designed to be well submerged  when the boat is underway it is said to have a deep forefoot.  The complete opposite is a hull form like the J class yachts that have a long overhang.
I would call your bow form a clipper bow (think Cutty Sark) but that's just me.

Hope that helps a bit.

Oh, and the build is really great, I am very impressed with your planking - don't worry about the filler, the fastest racing yachts have loads of it to fair the hull!  Looking forward to your next  instalment.

(A completely different) Greg

[gondolier88]

Thanks Greg,

Yes, this is based on the "stretched" 30ft version plans that SF built for a South African vineyard owner.

The new launch's performance will be interesting compared with the primitive hull of "Vital Byte". What do you mean by "too much displacement" - is it the shape?

I suppose what I'm trying to achieve is not so much speed, rather than an elegent and luxurious application of steam power that you don't get with anyother craft. The Edwardian period of steam pleasure boats seems to encompass that tone. Also, it is a type of craft where the steam plant can be legitimately displayed in all its motion.

I wonder if you can help me on a few points - in the SF manual it describes the launch as having a "deep forefoot" on the bow - what does that mean? And, also, what is the correct description of the bow shape - is it a schooner, Thames launch, Windermere launch, etc?

Ian

Hi Ian,

Forgive me, I notice now your first post does indeed say it's the 30ft'er.

Your launch will indeed have elegance, in bucket loads!!

As sailorgreg says, that bow would normally be described as a 'clipper' bow, although in essence they are two completely different constructions of stem, a different name for the general shape your boat's bow hasn't until now been though of. One feature of a clipper bow is a deep forefoot- again, as sailorgreg points out, this is the point where the stem meets the keel, often curved on launches, it provides a wider land for the planks to land on than if you took the planks onto a completely 'plumb' stem- imagine your planks continued onto a stem that was 90deg. to the waterline, how acute the angle would be.

I have to disagree with sailorgreg on the point of displacement- steam launches have a direct correlation between displacement and speed, or more accurately between displacement and power consumption. A case in point- steam launch 'Elfin' on Windermere was 65ft x 6.5ft- a beam to length of nearly 1:10. She had a 250hp compound engine and had a speed of 25mph, in 1895!! She would have had a displacement of around 12-15tons. Compare that to the preserved steam tug 'Kerne', she is 72ft LWL (longer WL means a more efficient entry and exit angle, and usually more speed is resultant). She has a beam of 18ft and a displacement of 63tons. She has a 300hp triple turning prop' of nearly 8ft dia!! Yet, with all that power she can only reach 8knots at full speed. Why, because she has to push 63tons of water out of the way just to float.

Having seen a large number of launches that were designed and built during the Victorian/Edwardian period it is distinctly obvious that SF's designs, although very seaworthy and very pretty, do not in any way copy the launches of the period they are titled after.

I know of two boats that were built in the last 15 years or so, one 30ft, one 31ft. The 31ft launch has a displacement of just 1.2tons, uses a single cylinder Thornycroft engine of just 8hp, and yet will reach and sustain 16mph! The other 30ft launch has a displacement of 1.1tons, a 15hp LIFU compound engine and a top speed of just short of 18mph- very impressive to say the least.

In low powered, highly efficient steam launches, displacement is everything, not that any of that will stop your launch being a very well designed, built and engineered boat, of which that is already evident.

Greg

[flashtwo]

Thanks Greg(s) for your comments, encouraging compliments and explaining the “boat” terminology.

I look forward to the change from the  “Kerne” performance of “Vital Byte”  to an “Elfin” performance for the new launch!

In anticipation of the colder weather to come, I have built an insulation box to cover the hull, which, with the addition of the greenhouse fan heater, will keep it warm to assist the curing of the epoxy. It is constructed from 25mm expanded polystyrene insulation boards.

First photo’ shows the box (also available with brass handles! SWMBO doesn't like the grave humour!)

Second photo’, the pre-cut veneer (120 off) strips, all numbered and ready to be glued back on the hull, hopefully in the right order.

Ian

[flashtwo]

No I haven't hung myself (yet) - those are my waders hanging up!

Ian

[logoman]

No I haven't hung myself (yet) - those are my waders hanging up!

Ian

 

[steamboatmodel]

Ian my wife was looking over my shoulder when I was looking at your "Coffin" photos and suggested I make some for my models plus one my size so that it will be easier to cart me any my models out when the time comes. Which she said might be soon if I buy any more models.
Regards,
Gerald.

[flashtwo]

Glad you appreciate the humour!

Well the first layer of veneer has been epoxied to the hull (see photo') and any lifts have been relaid and the hull sanded down to remove any small ridges. I did use 690 staples to secure the veneer whilst the epoxy cured - easy to staple, but bit of a slog to remove them all!

The 1 inch strips (hanging in the background)  are being cut for the final layer from the two remaining veneer sheets.
 
Since the final layer strips are from two separate sheets, they are being marked as "A" or "B", in case they have a slightly different colour, and are being fitted alternately rather than on one side to prevent the hull having a completely different shade on the port to the starboard.

Ian.

[flashtwo]

Yorktown – Isandlwana - Spion Kop – Arnhem – Glass cloth sheathing ….. a long line of defeats!

Having successfully cut and stapled the final veneer sheath onto the hull, I applied the glass cloth and epoxy resin. The hull was then covered and kept warm for the next six hours and left overnight to set – it was looking good.

The next day, I took off the wraps and things didn’t look too bad and all 723 staples were carefully removed. On close inspection, I noticed that where the staples had been on the more horizontal sections of the hull, the staple holes had “sucked” a portion of the resin leaving a series of craters behind about 1cm across in which I could see the cloth weave. On other sections the resin was too thick and on the sides had formed quite thick ripples as the excess resin had flowed. At the fan tail and bow the resin was just at the correct thickness to show the weave.

Although I had practised with a spare pieces of veneered wood, including horizontal and vertical, and with staples holes, I think the first mistake I had made was when I was vacuuming the dust from the work area and hull– the hoover had sucked out the dust from the staple holes, which on the test pieces had been blocked, thus allowing the resin to seep through causing the craters.

The other mistake was changing from using the foam roller to using a stippling brush in applying the resin. I had used the roller at the stern and bow and the correct finish was achieved. The roller had been causing the cloth to rack-up, so I changed to using the brush which caused foaming of the resin.

I did attempt to sand the excess ripples off, but the trapped air bubble craters started filling with white epoxy dust (a mask was worn) encouraging me to sand deeper. All the time I was cautious not to go through the weave, but unfortunately did in places.

Well the big decision was made to remove the lot. Using a delta sander to get through pass the weave, the remaining epoxy was scraped off (not sanded) back to the original veneer; it took eight very dusty hours and the work area looked like a snow storm had hit it.

The staple holes are now at least filled!

I think, in hindsight, that the double veneered hull is quite hard enough without being glass-cloth sheathed and I am now trying to decide whether to just apply a resin or varnish coat(s) to the hull – any advice would be most welcome at this stage.

A couple of other observations:-

From the photographs you may see that I applied vertical strips of drafting tape which had alignment lines for when the veneer strips were to be refitted to the hull with epoxy. On the first layer I pencilled lines directly on the veneer, but they became permanent especially where the epoxy had covered them. I thought that by using drafting tape it would prevent any problems, but surprisingly found that they left a very light area on removal which was difficult to remove by sanding. I had noticed during the application of the veneer that the thickened epoxy tended to squeeze through the pores of the sapele grain and I don’t think this happened where the drafting tape was, perhaps due to trapped air. Obviously some form of alignment marking is required on the veneers, but pencil or drafting tape cause their own problems.

The other observation is that you need to sand paper all the rough skin off your hands before handling the glass cloth otherwise it snags worse than a pair of tights!

In the mean time, I’m going to invert the hull and tackle the inside with a view to installing and aligning the very long prop shaft before tackling the keel and skeg. Since the prop shaft length is in excess of 800mm the slightest misalignment at the prop end will throw its position out at the engine coupling.

Yours (a lot the wiser)

Ian.

[Jerry C]

This is proof, should it ever be needed, that no matter how many coats of paint/resin you put on, if you have a pit to start with, you'll have a pit at the end. It's all same "the Princess and the Pea".  When I built my clincker hull I put resin(no cloth), on the inside after the floors,ribs and stringers were in. Now resin has a tendency to turn white when wet so I protected it with three coats of varnish. The resin went through the short grain of the mahogany in places and appeared on the out side. The inside of most launches is largely hidden by flooring, steam plant, cabins and decks etc so the imperfections of the resin finish are lost(you'll see them but nobody else will). Most carvel hulls are painted but double diagonal construction can look superb when varnished. If you do plan to varnish then remove all traces of resin and cloth. Fill all holes/pits with colour matched wood filler(don't use plastic wood or the same by any other name as it sets harder than diamonds). Fill grain with proprietary grain filler. Put on two coats of meths based clear sanding sealer, rub down to wood with wire wool. Sanding sealer dries in 10 minutes(it's shellac). Put on two more coats then knock the shine off with finer wire wool. This shellac will save you 8 coats of varnish as it will not suck into the wood. Clean off dust an clean with a tack rag before putting on three THIN coats of best quality, oil based yacht varnish. If you can clean the brush in white spirit it's ok. Thin the varnish with white spirit 10:1. Never use varnish neat. Never use straight from the tin but decant through a pair of tights into a working pot.  Allow at least 2 days between coats(now you be glad you used the shellac). Knock the shine off each coat with finest sue wool. After final coat(trust me you'll know when) knock the shine off then polish with beeswax polish until it blinds you. Or you could just paint it!
Jerry.

[flashtwo]

Hi Jerry,
 
Thank you for your reply - your valuable experience is much appreciated.
 
Although I have removed all of the cloth and scraped off the resin, there is still resin within the grain of the veneer that had oozed through when attaching the veneer - I shall have to do a test area that won't show too much.
 
A few questions:-
 
What is "sue wool"?
 
The thinned varnish - thats 1 part of white spirit to 10 of varnish, or am I being thick?
 
I have seen on websites that some people use foam brushes and others use good quality bristle - which has been successful for you?
 
Thanks again
 
Ian

[Jerry C]

Sorry matey, sue wool is iPhone predictive test for wire wool and me rushing my proof reading. Don't worry about remaining resin, just make sure you rub down flat. Sanding sealer will take ok. Mix is correct as you say. I used a good quality 1 1/2" brush but the finish doesn't come from the brush it comes from the rubbing down and cutting back. While varnish dries in 24 hrs it takes at least 48 before I would cut it. When you cut back with wire wool if it doesn't make dust, stop, and give it another day. This is how I do it with varnish as that's the way I did my Redwing sailing dinghy inthold days. If you want you can do it with 2 pack epoxy and spray it on. That way the finish you get is out of the gun and you don't re work it after. I don't know how to do that so if you choose that way then I recommend you ask Stavros cos he's the expert on that system. I saw one from the Colwyn Bay club and it was stumnning. It's very tough but don't know how you repair wear damage. Repairing varnish is easy. Just make sure it's the old fashioned oil based yacht varnish. It's on it's way out due to new emission regs. I have no experience of acrylic water based varnishes except bad ones! I don't know what I'm doing with them. I stick with what I know.
Jerry.

[SailorGreg]

Sorry to hear you had so much trouble with the sheathing.  I know it's too late  now, but did you start rolling the resin in from the ends or the middle?  From what you say it sounds like you did the ends first, but the best way is to start in the middle and work the resin (and the wrinkles) towards the bow and stern.  Anyway, unless you are going to regularly drive your boat up a shingle beach or play dodgems with a concrete wharf you almost certainly won't miss the glass cloth.

As for varnishing, I have had no joy at all with foam "brushes" although I know other people have.  As Jerry says, preparation is everything - and so is the number of coats you put on.  Don't expect a great finish with two or three coats.  You really need at least five or six to get that depth of finish you see on good varnish work.  The way I have done it is to get  four or five coats on quickly (one coat a day) with a roller, let that cure for a couple of days, cut it back with some  320 wet and dry and put the final coat(s) on with a good brush.  The rolled finish isn't great but it does avoid the runs and bare spots that tend to plague my brushed coats - the wet and dry then gives you a nice base for the piece de resistance! The most neglected part of getting a good finish is good lighting - outside on a bright day is best, but given the time of the year, get as many lights as possible on the job, especially for the final coat.

Good luck and I'm sure you'll do a great job 

Greg

[flashtwo]

Hi Mayhemers,

Moving on from the “lost battles”  to the “how-not-to-do-it” theme……

I’ve finally lifted the hull from the mould boards, mounted it in a cradle frame and continued the work.

As you can see that there was a lot of removal and cleaning up required of the excess epoxy that was originally applied to the cedar planks; in fact 300g (10oz) of epoxy was removed, which took 8 hours of sanding. The cleaned hull weighed in at 3.3kg.

The objective was now to sheath the inside with the glass-fibre cloth with the intention of strengthening the hull and also creating a barrier against all of the steam and oil that might find its way into the bilge.

Before sheathing, I had to even out the planking at the fan-tail, since I had a lot of trouble in that area due to misaligned mould boards with respect to the fan-tail gunnel.

I used a proprietary two-part filler to level the low areas, which didn’t look too bad against the freshly sandpapered cedar. However, when the sealing coat of epoxy was applied, the cedar turned a rich dark colour and the filler turned a horrible yellow – a good job it will eventually be decked over.

To reduce the effects of any moisture in the hull, I warmed the hull in its “coffin” at about 20degC  for about 8 hours. I brushed the sealing coat of epoxy into the small remaining gaps between the planks and also into the staple holes, with the intention of avoiding air bubbles, and finished with a roller. I then kept the hull warm for another 3 hours to assist the curing process. On inspection it looked good – so far.

Before applying the glass-cloth, I again warmed up the hull for about 3 hours (the garage is not the ideal place this time of year). I then pre-cut the cloth and located them on the hull with the clamps.

With everything in place I proceeded to epoxy the cloth to the hull using a brush to slightly move the cloth in a slight circular motion to encourage the resin to flow into the weave rather than stippling and causing the foaming I had experienced previously. After spending more than 4 hours doing this operation, I then covered the hull up and warmed it up to 20degC for 3 hours.

On inspection in the cold light of day I was disappointed to say the least when I discovered that air had lifted patches of  expoxied cloth up to 12mm across, but strangely only in the last area to be covered. The starboard side was completely free of these patches as were the majority of the port side, but up at the port bow there were about a dozen of these unsightly patches.

It took me a while to understand that the final application of heat had caused the trapped air in some of the staples holes (dammed things!) to expand and separate the cloth from the hull – but only in the areas where the epoxy was still fluid; the rest of the hull had cured just sufficiently to contain the air.

Again, with hindsight, I should have used sanding-sealer (I was told!) that perhaps would have displaced the air in the staple holes and also I should have just let the hull cool down to prevent the air bubbles from expanding.

Anyway, I cut back the patches and  gave each offending staple hole (thank god it wasn’t the total of  3000 holes!) some personal attention, one more epoxy coat rollered on and left with no heating – the result, you’ve guessed it, AMINE BLUSH.

I’m  now thinking about constructing the frames, stringers and floor prior to test fitting the engine.

I was considering using ash or lime (bass) for the frames etc . Does anyone know a supplier of ash?

Ian

[flashtwo]

and the fantail with the filler, least said........
 
Ian

[flashtwo]

...just one bit of good news - the hull fits in the car!
 
Ian.

[gondolier88]

Sorry to hear of your epoxy woes!


If you're after a frame wood that will bend in you need either ash or oak- if you are going to bend them onto the GRP then use oak, and cover with a coat of epoxy. If you are going to GRP over the frames, use ash. Ash will not stand the small amounts of fresh water left in the bottom of model boats, constantly getting damp and drying out, they will go rotten in a couple of years. Using a decent oak will alleviate the problem of rot for far longer, especially if you epoxy coat it, or just varnish it. Oak is also what would have been used on the boat's full size Edwardian ancestors.


Greg