Model Boat Mayhem

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length.
Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Author Topic: Steam attenuator  (Read 10753 times)

steam up

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 441
  • Location: Gateshead UK
Steam attenuator
« on: July 31, 2012, 04:08:03 pm »

Having finished the bulk of the build on my steam launch it was time to sort out the gas supply.
I came across a book by Stan Bray and noticed a design for an attenuator and gas regulator by Malcolm Break.
Using the download from the Paddle ducks site and the book I was able to make some progress however due to a number of errors in the book and unclear photos on the download I was a bit stuck.
Malcolm to the rescue he provided some helpful information and photos which clarified the design, some a big thank you to a fellow Paddler.
So far so good I still need to locate the pipe inlet and outled pipes and source some suitable synthetic rubber.

john s 2

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,172
  • Location: Southend on Sea Essex
Re: Steam attenuator
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2012, 04:15:05 pm »

Forest steam sell a ready made unit of this type, or there are the thermistor type which control a servo op valve. John.
Logged

steam up

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 441
  • Location: Gateshead UK
Re: Steam attenuator
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2012, 05:25:25 pm »

Just thought I would have a go at making one myself far more satisfying (if it works :embarrassed:).

pettyofficernick

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,255
  • Marineville will be destroyed, Muahahaha.....
  • Location: Leasowe, Wirral
Re: Steam attenuator
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2012, 05:33:57 pm »

The Forest Classics one uses a very thin brass disc instead of synthetic rubber, I had to take mine to bits when it stopped working. This was due to me being a cheapskate and using tap water to run my boiler instead of buying distilled water. I now use purified water BP from the chemists at 2.99 a gallon.
Regards,
Nick. :-) :-) :-)
Logged
What I do is best not discussed, for I have been many things in my time....

BarryM

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,701
  • Location: West Lothian
Re: Steam attenuator
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2012, 08:40:09 am »

Just thought I would have a go at making one myself far more satisfying (if it works :embarrassed:).

How very true. I made one of these and also received help from Malcolm Beak which was above the call of duty. The only difference I made was to split the design down the middle into two components as this made it easier to machine.

Regards,

Barry M
Logged

steam up

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 441
  • Location: Gateshead UK
Re: Steam attenuator
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2012, 10:37:07 am »

By the way how thick was the rubber seal that you used ,not sure how to source it?

essex2visuvesi

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6,148
  • Location: Finland, England, Finland!
Re: Steam attenuator
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2012, 10:50:43 am »

The Forest Classics one uses a very thin brass disc instead of synthetic rubber, I had to take mine to bits when it stopped working. This was due to me being a cheapskate and using tap water to run my boiler instead of buying distilled water. I now use purified water BP from the chemists at 2.99 a gallon.
Regards,
Nick. :-) :-) :-)

99p stores have distilled water for steam irons and car batteries at... you guessed it 99p for 2 litres (picked some at the weekend for my LS rocket
Logged
One By One The Penguins Steal My Sanity
Proud member of the OAM  (Order of the Armchair Modeller)
Junior member of the OGG  (Order of the Grumpy Git)

steam up

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 441
  • Location: Gateshead UK
Re: Steam attenuator
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2012, 11:12:47 am »

If you look closely at the photo you might notice that as yet I have not decided on the location for the device.
Could anybody give advice regarding location and plumming arrangements? :D

kiwimodeller

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 622
  • Location: Waihi, New Zealand
Re: Steam attenuator
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2012, 12:06:51 pm »

Watch out that the water you buy is in fact distilled. In this part of the world you can also get what is labelled "Purified Water" or "De - Ionised Water" which should not be confused with the distilled stuff. De - Ionised water does its best to recover the ions which have been removed and the best way it can do so is by taking ions out of the metal of your boiler fittings. The scale caused by tap water is not usually too bad and can be dealt to bi boiling up with descaling compound in the water. If you cant get distilled water I would suggest rain water collected in a plastic container is the next best thing and having to use tap water is not the end of the world. Cheers, Ian.
Logged

TAG

  • Shipmate
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10
Re: Steam attenuator
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2012, 03:24:17 pm »

I completely agree with kiwimodler, I was advised by a water treatment adviser that "purified" or "de-ionised" water is slow death to non ferrous boiler fittings.
Another source of boiler water is from an air conditioning unit which removes the moisture from the air. I have a small de-humidifier unit running continuously in my garage, although its output appears small it soon adds up and it helps keep the rust away. Cost was under £30 mail order.
Tim   
Logged

mrsgoggins

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 207
  • Model Boat Mayhem Forum is the Best!
  • Location: Oldham
Re: Steam attenuator
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2012, 11:00:59 am »

I am using the same regulator/attenuator with great success. I used .060" thick neoprene for the diaphragm but have bought .040" nitrile off ebay for my next project.

Regards,
Keith
Logged
Chasing perfection but not running fast enough!

steam up

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 441
  • Location: Gateshead UK
Re: Steam attenuator
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2012, 07:33:05 pm »

Sounds good I need to think about the location of the Attenuator and the steam pressure intake could you give any advice regarding this Keith?
Mark

HS93 (RIP)

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,922
  • I cannot spell , tough
  • Location: Rainhill UK
Re: Steam attenuator
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2012, 07:34:39 pm »

Having finished the bulk of the build on my steam launch it was time to sort out the gas supply.
I came across a book by Stan Bray and noticed a design for an attenuator and gas regulator by Malcolm Break.
Using the download from the Paddle ducks site and the book I was able to make some progress however due to a number of errors in the book and unclear photos on the download I was a bit stuck.
Malcolm to the rescue he provided some helpful information and photos which clarified the design, some a big thank you to a fellow Paddler.
So far so good I still need to locate the pipe inlet and outled pipes and source some suitable synthetic rubber.

any chance of posting the missing bits from Malcom as I fancy a go at one ,

thanks Peter
Logged

steam up

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 441
  • Location: Gateshead UK
Re: Steam attenuator
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2012, 10:04:14 am »

I will check the drawings and post later on today
Mark

malcolmbeak

  • Shipmate
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22
  • Location: St.Albans
Re: Steam attenuator
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2012, 09:05:50 am »

Mark
Position of inlet and outlet. Why not drill and tap for several positions, then when you have decided just where to fit it, plug the unwanted holes. One other point , I realise that omited to show a small hole in each of the adjusting screws (say 1mm). So that as the diaphragm moves there is no change in pressure in the upper cavities. Probably makes no diference anyway, but better be safe than sorry.
Malcolm
Logged

steam up

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 441
  • Location: Gateshead UK
Re: Steam attenuator
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2012, 01:52:14 pm »

Thanks for the advice Malcolm.
Peter for your information these are the errors which I have spotted due to typos in the Model Marine Steam book:
Length of unit should read 1"  5/8th" not  1" 3/8th"
High and low pressure intakes and outlets should be 1/8th X 40 tpi
Boiler pressure intake 3/16th X40 tpi
Bore of body tapped 5/16th X32 tpi for car valves (I turned valves down to 1/4" and loctite in place).
These photos from Malcolm have been very useful in the build.

HS93 (RIP)

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,922
  • I cannot spell , tough
  • Location: Rainhill UK
Re: Steam attenuator
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2012, 06:07:56 pm »

thank you for that I have the book and fancy building one,I have printed it out now .

thanks

peter
Logged

steam up

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 441
  • Location: Gateshead UK
Re: Steam attenuator
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2012, 06:44:54 pm »

Your welcome let's know how you get on.
Mark

malcolmbeak

  • Shipmate
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22
  • Location: St.Albans
Re: Steam attenuator
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2012, 09:06:53 am »

I've just had a look at the drawing in Stan Bray's book. I hadn't realised how many errors there are. If you download the article from the Paddleducks site you will find the correct dimensions - a bit fuzzy I'm afraid, the original scan was not too good and I can't find the copy of Model Boats it came from.
Of the three types of tyre valve that Mark has posted, the one to use is that on the right hand side. In the MB article they managed to print the photo upside down so the wrong one was identified as that to use!
Malcolm
Logged

steam up

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 441
  • Location: Gateshead UK
Re: Steam attenuator
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2012, 10:59:05 am »

Just finished last night bit of a lump but weight is not an issue many thanks for the help Malcolm :-)).

KNO3

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,515
  • Location: Bucharest
Re: Steam attenuator
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2012, 05:57:30 pm »

So this unit uses tyre valves? Why are there two of them, what do they do?
I've seen other gas regulators with only one valve (such as the Forrest steam unit).
Logged

malcolmbeak

  • Shipmate
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22
  • Location: St.Albans
Re: Steam attenuator
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2012, 10:55:43 pm »

It's not just a regulator. One side regulates the gas for constant pressure and the other has a connection to the boiler pressure and is adjustable such that when working steam pressure is reached the gas supply is cut down but not off. So you can trickle about without the safety valve blowing off, then when the throttle is opened and the steam pressure drops, the full gas supply is restored.
Malcolm
Logged

essex2visuvesi

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6,148
  • Location: Finland, England, Finland!
Re: Steam attenuator
« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2012, 07:48:27 am »

Another source of boiler water is from an air conditioning unit which removes the moisture from the air.
So would the water collected from a condenser type Tumble dryer be the same?
Logged
One By One The Penguins Steal My Sanity
Proud member of the OAM  (Order of the Armchair Modeller)
Junior member of the OGG  (Order of the Grumpy Git)

Jerry C

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,504
  • Location: Caernarfon, North Wales.
Re: Steam attenuator
« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2012, 09:36:57 am »

Distillation of liquids can happen at different temperatures and pressures. For example if we boil water in a kettle at sea level and cool the resultant steam it turns back into water and leaves most of the impurities such as minerals , microbes and bacteria (now mostly dead) in the kettle. If you boil the kettle on top of everest ie at low atmospheric pressure the water boils at low temperature. This is the principle an evaporator works on,Microbes and bacteria are not killed and more pass over to the steam side and collect in the so called distilled water where they multiply more rapidly. Water vapour comes off the surface of water in significant amounts before  water boils or our clothes wouldn't dry on the washing line. When this vapour comes in contact with a relatively cool surface it condenses back to water. This is how a condensing dryer works. Few minerals but plenty bugs! Similarly the water collected from an air conditioning plant  is condensed with again few minerals but plenty bugs.
From experience, using water collected from driers and air conditioning plants to flush fresh water toilets on tug deliveries, in order to extend our fresh water endurance, I can say that the water collected turns foul in 2 or 3 days and the practice ceased soon after. I might add that one of those bugs is legionella which is deadly.
Boiling water at higher pressures, condensing the steam, sterilising with ultra violet light and chlorinating will give you good potable water but not good for boilers unless the chlorine  is evaporated.
Every person  who makes a boiler states that we should use "distilled water" and not use "deionised water". Why wouldn't they? It is the only reasonable choice to stop guarantee claims.  As you can see from many other threads on this forum this is not as simple as it looks. If you want to be "sure" use the distilled water used to top up lead acid batteries. You can buy it in 10 gallon platic drums. It's not cheap though. If you live in Liverpool or have similar water supply then I can tell you that they (and I) have been putting tap water into their car batteries for Yonks with no Ill effects. Do you have to de-furr your kettle and replace your immersion heater every year cos of calcium build up as people do in certain areas in Cheshire? If so tap water may not be your best choice. But if you have water so soft that it takes ages to get the soap off you in the shower then you can use this type of water. Read BernhardBB's posts on steam, he has been using lake water direct for years with no ill effects. It depends on your lake. I use the lake at Llanberis with no problems.
Rambling Jerry.

BarryM

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,701
  • Location: West Lothian
Re: Steam attenuator
« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2012, 07:53:37 pm »

Just to show that there is more than one way to skin a cat. My version of Malcolm's design divided into two components which had the two benefits of being a) lighter and b) easier to machine.

Regards,

Barry M
Logged
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.114 seconds with 21 queries.