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Author Topic: old gyro-based levellers  (Read 5877 times)

redboat219

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old gyro-based levellers
« on: December 11, 2012, 11:41:35 AM »

Does anybdy have info how those heli gyros were modified for submarine use?
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Davy1

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Re: old gyro-based levellers
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2012, 02:14:23 PM »

As far as I am aware heli gyros are of no use in submarines - they have the wrong characteristic. (they just sense a turn)
You basically need tilt sensing for model submarine control.
The closest I have come to this kind of modification is that we modified some cheap "model car stabilisers" quite successfully to level controllers. John R did this by replacing the gyro chip with an tilt sensing (accelerometer) chip. I expect he will chip in about this shortly (Ouch, sorry!)
David
 
 
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Subculture

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Re: old gyro-based levellers
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2012, 06:20:28 PM »

I see that Manfred (the diving dutchman) is showing a conversion of an old electromechanical gyro over at the sub drivers forum.

Modern piezo based gyros could prove more of a challenge to convert. The main snag with the old gyros is the physical bulk. Not too much of a problem for a bigger model, but for something really small- no go.

redboat219

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Re: old gyro-based levellers
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2012, 11:39:49 PM »

Yes I'm aware of his conversion project over at the SD Forum.
I kept coming across qoutes about how in the early days of RC submarines modelers would convert helicopter gyros into angle keepers. Is this the way they did it?
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Subculture

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Re: old gyro-based levellers
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2012, 10:35:23 AM »

Manfred has a different type of pendulum arrangement to anything else I've seen, but it's pretty much it. Basically you dispense with the motor and flyhweels which provide the gyroscopic component, and fit a pendulum in place to actuate the hall sensor.

They work as well as the modern gadgets, but you won't fit one in that little Kilo of yours.

sub john

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Re: old gyro-based levellers
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2012, 07:13:09 PM »

hi guys first picture is of a rc car gyro what has been modded with an accelerometer sensor and will now work as a level control for a sub units are cheap only 7 plus then you need to buy the sensor board needs to have a few smd components changed ( 3 ) I modded 5 units for davy and he said they work well !!!   It didnt take ME long to work out how to do the mod to the gyro notice that there is a two pence peice to the side of the gryo  to show the size of the unit  it is small as you can see
 

 

 
the second unit is an ikarus wing gyro  and this was originally for a model plane   this has also been fitted with an accelerometer sensor the beauty is with this unit you can take manual control of the back hydroplanes plus you can also alter the gain of the unit from the tx   ( very usefull )   
 
to be honest i dont think there is any gryo that you wouldnt be able to mod to use as a level control even the early gyros can be modded but it comes down to if you have the know how of how to do it 
 

 


back in the days of using pendulums to make level controllers for model subs played about with flux gate sensors this must be almost 30 years ago very basic idea is you have a ferrite ring and on that ring you wound sets of miniature coils these coils were switched on at certain frequencies and you could use this as a sensing head for making a level controller to work in a model submarine troubel is there was alot of electronics to get it to work
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Subculture

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Re: old gyro-based levellers
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2012, 07:42:53 PM »

Are these controllers using analogue interfaces between the sensor and microcontroller. I know some of the sensors are using serial links now e.g. I2C. and I'm sure some devices are likely to be incorporating this tech into gyros too.

sub john

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Re: old gyro-based levellers
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2012, 09:48:55 PM »

HI Subculture
     As you probably know on these sensors there is two types the linear voltage type and the other one that give out digital out put, the digital are easier to interface to a microcontroller i must say the price that you can pick up some of these levelers for model subs unless you are doing it as a challenger i don't think it is worth messing around unless you are going to custom build one for a big sub as the bigger they get the more sensitive the leveler has to be
              All the best John
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Subculture

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Re: old gyro-based levellers
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2012, 10:10:57 PM »

I've seen three main types. One is simple linear ouput, chucks out something like 0-5volts to interface with a m/c A/D converter, then you have the ones which modulate a pulse width duty cycle. Then you have the type that chuck out a serial dta link via an i2c or other serial protocols.

I quite a agree, not worth making these yourself unless you want something that is unusual. In Germany quite a few modellers still use the analgue circuits, but interfaced with the newer acclerometers. You can dial these in precisely to the boat, wheras the very small digital versions tend to offer a few arbitary settings, which are adequate for most people/models, I guess the fine adjustment gives you that last few percent.

Davy1

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Re: old gyro-based levellers
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2012, 12:23:48 PM »

Hi All,
Just to confirm what John says, the modified car gyros work well in my subs and I now have a lifetime supply!
The accelerometer chip we chose was very cheap, has a linear output and requires John's skills with surface mount devices to fit it.
It is amazing how these accelerometer chips have progressed, mostly because of car airbag techonology, I think.
Pendulum devices, even if you could fit them into your sub are probably now best consigned to the bin. ;)
An account of the rather "hit and miss" O0  development of the car stabiliser board here:
http://www.theassociationofmodelsubmariners.com/t612-rc-drift-stabilizer-for-cars
http://www.theassociationofmodelsubmariners.com/t240-level-controller-diy?highlight=level
David
 
 
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sub john

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Re: old gyro-based levellers
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2012, 06:27:51 PM »

HI Subculture
    Haven't seen serial type sensors will have to have a look, to be honest i can not believe that people are still using pendulum type levellers like Davy says i think they belong in the bin i can not believe how long these things have been about and people are still using them just the size of the levellers is enough to put people off. Things have moved on a bit since the days of the first pendulum levellers but i suppose at the time it got the job done
      John
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sub john

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Re: old gyro-based levellers
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2012, 06:36:38 PM »

HI Davy
       Glad to hear that the levellers are still working OK i think they turned out to be nice little units, and at the right price just been sitting hear thinking how long ago it is that i first made my first pendulum leveller and it is over 30 years ago can not believe that it has been that long ago seems like yesterday. But electronics has come on so much in 30 years it makes you wonder where it will all go in the next 30 years scary
     All the best John
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Subculture

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Re: old gyro-based levellers
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2012, 06:43:48 PM »

Well here's one example of a sensor with serial link, there are many more- http://www.st.com/internet/analog/product/217375.jsp

It's mobile phones and computer technology driving these innovations. Enormous market for the companies, and we as hobbyists get the advantage of the hand me downs.

U-33

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Re: old gyro-based levellers
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2012, 11:00:07 AM »

Way back, a chap who lived two doors down from me was a radio techie sort, he made/modified more or less anything to do with radio control. He had a go at modifying a heli gyro for me to install in my Patrick Henry, but after many attempts and much bad language, he could never get it to work properly. It just wasn't sensitive enough, so in the end it was binned and one of Ron Perrott's SALCONs was installed in the boat...what a transformation!


The chap in question went on to build a whole series of 40mHz radios, from simple two channel sets up to hugely complex eight channel outfits with variable this and adjustable that, superb things they were. He modified my Futaba 6 channel outfit to have slider switches for the ballast tanks, upped the output of it, and all sorts of things.


I believe I'm right in saying that Skip Asay over in the US of A made heli gyros work properly in a sub, somewhere I have a magazine article of how he did it. If I can manage to find it, I'll scan it and post it up on here.




Rich
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Rich

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Timo2

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Re: old gyro-based levellers
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2012, 11:46:48 AM »

Hi All


   Contact  Micheal  at   "  http://microgyros.com/ " he has some new unit for Subs.


  Timo2
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sub john

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Re: old gyro-based levellers
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2012, 04:59:59 PM »

HI Subculture
      Thanks for link for serial sensor had a quick look it looks interesting will have a better look later on, must admit not seen these before
 
      Thanks John
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sub john

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Re: old gyro-based levellers
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2012, 05:29:21 PM »

HI U33 Richard
         It is supprizing what modes you can do to radio control, i remember changing a Kraft 2 channel transmitter 27MHZ to 9 channels the guy that used to be the importer for Kraft radio gear in the UK at the time was called Jeff Franklin and it used to be on Jarrom street in Leicester that is going back 45 years ago and i was only about 10 years old at the time and he could not believe that i had modded this transmitter so much and the receiver. I went on to modify some of these transmitters and receivers to be 90 channels plus digital read outs. One of these transmitters is still used today on that big sub of mine you have got to remember that a lot of these sets that Kraft made where fiber glass PCB boards the components on them like caps where all silver mica for stability  around timing circuits and so on, and at the time was first class that's why a lot of people used it at the time. I must admit that it is a interesting thing to work on radio control and to find out how to do interesting modes. It put me in a good position  later on to work on some of the stuff that i am doing to day like low frequency under water using radio control and when i get the time to do the sonic link for under water pretty much know how to do it including making sensors just need to find the time.
 
        Richard in that little sub that you are making the selcon leveller is that big you could not get it in as there was not enough room and you had to buy a smaller one if my memory serves me right micro giro did you BIN the selcon because that's where it should go its a dinosaur
    John
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Subculture

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Re: old gyro-based levellers
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2012, 05:34:02 PM »

No worries. If you look on farnell etc. you'll see there are plenty of devices for sale, and they're very cheap even in small quantities.

U-33

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Re: old gyro-based levellers
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2012, 05:56:33 PM »

"Richard, in that little sub that you are making the selcon leveller is that big you could not get it in as there was not enough room and you had to buy a smaller one if my memory serves me right micro giro did you BIN the selcon because that's where it should go its a dinosaur####John"




A dinosaur? Good heavens man, wash your mouth out with soapy water! I'd have the SALCON without hesitation John, the one in the Patrick Henry was absolutely superb, it's a shame it didn't fit in the Skipjack...but the little MicroGyros one is a good piece of kit, and if it turns out to be half as good as the one in the Lafayette, I'll be a happy chappy.


Dinosaur...cough cough.
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Rich

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sub john

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Re: old gyro-based levellers
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2012, 06:12:39 PM »

HI Richard
       Did you say that you have  thrown it in the skip i told you that's where it belongs bit of old tat, get your self some modern stuff dinosaur
       John
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U-33

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Re: old gyro-based levellers
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2012, 06:35:19 PM »

Just for you, JR....just for you. This is the new version of the MicroGyros leveller, cost me 22!



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Rich

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sub john

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Re: old gyro-based levellers
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2012, 07:05:03 PM »

HI Richard
        Whats this a piece of new tat, they are suppose to work quite well from what i have been told
               John
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U-33

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Re: old gyro-based levellers
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2012, 09:26:43 PM »

They are good, John...the one I had in the Lafayette was magic, just plugged it in with the boat perfectly level, switched on...job done.
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Rich

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thegrimreaper

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Re: old gyro-based levellers
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2012, 09:30:00 AM »

Richard that got to be an upgrade from your beloved Selcon whats next ?  A new lcd tv to replace the CRT  TV you have lol
 
 
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U-33

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Re: old gyro-based levellers
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2012, 11:09:16 AM »

I'll have you know young Mark, that I have been dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century already....I now have electrickery 24/7(provided that my hamster keeps the wheel turning)and...and...I now have a proper throne to perch upon, no more going down the bottom of the garden with a shovel at two o clock in the morning. Oh yes, young fella...I am ready for anything now.


Now, where did I put my bow and arrow? It's time to go foraging for lunch....




Rich




PS...what's a tv?
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Rich

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