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Author Topic: making a plug - disaster  (Read 10050 times)

para_handy

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making a plug - disaster
« on: June 23, 2013, 06:57:13 am »

I have spent the last six weeks making a plug and i took my time doing it to get every stage correct, I first thing i did to the plug when it was all smooth and free from blemishes i sprayed it with several coats of black acrylic paint and left it to harden for a few days then i proceeded to give the plug seven coats of wax release agent and then i was told that on top of this i should spray several coats of pva release agent so i did that i then applied the gelcoat, after waiting about 12 hours i started the layup of 300gm fibreglass I gave it three layers and the left it to stand for 24hrs and then using proper wedges i started to release the mould from the plug i found this not to hard and eventually it separated but there was a lot of damage to the mould it ha stuck in several places and had actually taken pieces  of the plug of with it and it left the plug useless and the mould unrepairable.
What did i do wrong i followed the correct ratios with gelcoat mix and also with the epoxy and also maintained the temperature at 21deg what did i do wrong???????
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Subculture

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Re: disaster
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2013, 07:26:49 am »

Moulds can stick even under the best circumstances, but I've never had one fail to that extent.

Your laminating system sounds okay to me. My technique with polyester resin is to use gelcoat, let that tack off for three hours or so until dragging a brush over it leaves no impression behind. Left overnight, things should still be fine, as the gelcoat is air inhibited. Could eb a problem if you left iot for several days. I apply glass tissue over the dry gelcoat with laminating resin, this conforms to the gelcoat better avoiding pockets of air. You can let that cure if you like, or immediately apply the layers of chopped matt.

The biggest mistake you've made, and it's common, is to start learning about GRP on an important master. You should have practiced GRP and release techniques on something small and non-critical first.

Sounds like the application of the release agent was insufficient. PVA is quite difficult to apply over wax, it tends to separate, as the there is no key for the fluid to cling to. I find a thin coat or two of hairspray (water soluable plastic like PVA) over the wax, then PVA works much better, as it gives it something to cling to. For some tools I use PVA on it's own.

As chunks of the mould broke away, you have probably got poor reinforcement in some areas, and possibly poor adhesion between gelcoat and subsequent layers. I also apply glass strands mixed with resin in corners before laying matt in, to make sure they have a nice smooth radius.

I can understand you maybe disheartened, but GRP work is a skill, not hugely difficult to master, but one which has a learning curve. Carve some small skiff/lifeboat plugs, 3" or 4" long, no bigger. Carve them from wood, primer them, then when dry, and practice making a tool from them.

Another tip, if you're using wood to make the plug, it pays to coat it in resin or paint it with a resin paint system (e.g. two pack paints). Normal lacquer type primers are porous and unfortunately even with careful application of release agent, some resin can get through, and stick to the surface. A plastic surface on the other hand is far more slippery, and by coating the wood in a resin, you are effectively turning it into a plastic piece.

Last point, although your tool maybe damaged, perhaps you can use some bodyfilller to repair some of the defects to the point where you pull a rough hull from it? Then use that hull as the basis for a new master. Also beware of undercuts.
 
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Circlip

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Re: disaster
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2013, 10:42:34 am »

Same suggestion  re the gel coat, as soon as it becomes tacky start laying the glass layers. Second observation, unless the hull is a hard chine high speed launch, it's risking disaster to not have a split mould. It may take longer to make but it's certainly worth the effort.
 
  Regards  Ian.
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para_handy

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Re: disaster
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2013, 12:19:51 pm »

hi there i forgot to say it was fishing model boat and it is a split mould, i will post a pic as soon as i find out how to.
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mermod

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Re: disaster
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2013, 12:38:16 pm »

Everything subculture said was spot on :-))  but if I can add just one thing it's the importance of finishing the plug with 2 pack paint, not only do you have a physical barrier with the PVA release and the wax but with 2pack you have a chemically set surface that cant be re activated by the chemicals in the resin whereas acrylic paint (you mention black acrylic) can easily be softened with thinners/acetone etc and can go soft under resin allowing it to stick (not to mention the heat, acrylic paint doesn't like heat,
Phill
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mermod

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Re: disaster
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2013, 12:41:14 pm »

Oh, and don't be too disheartened, we've all been there.
phill
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para_handy

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Re: disaster
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2013, 12:09:56 pm »

today i have decided to make another plug and this time i will paint with 2 pk paint, in the meantime while i am building plug i will
have a practice with smaller objects to get some experience using 2 pk and the release agent and see how i get on.

I would like to thank all the the shipmate's for your input and i have taken all onboard.
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Circlip

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Re: disaster
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2013, 01:51:13 pm »

If you  still have a local Library (?) have a look for a molding info book "The glassfibre manual" by RH Warring. Also there may be something in full size boat repair. Save the local bin men getting fibre shards in their hands.  :-)) %)
 
  Regards  Ian.
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Subculture

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Re: disaster
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2013, 01:58:06 pm »

Do observe the health precautions with 2 pack paint, especially if you're spraying it, it is very nasty stuff. Ideally use an air fed mask, but if that is out of the question, do it outside, and use a good charcoal respirator.

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carlmt

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Re: disaster
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2013, 09:09:28 pm »

Sorry to drag up a 6 month old thread - catching up dont you know!!!
You talk about 2 pack paint........ Can you please drop some hints as to brands or where such stuff is available please?
I could go trawling the internet, but then I wouldnt know if I was looking at the correct or recommended products.
Many thanks in advance...
Carl

Subculture

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Brian60

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Re: disaster
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2013, 11:53:38 am »

2 pack paint should be available from a local motor factor paint supplies. as its a specialist product don't expect to pick it up at the like of B&Q etc.

With regards mould seperation I agree with all the sentiments offered. In my own experience I have always used a good 'gloss' paint on my plugs, then beeswax polished on in several coats followed by a proprietry release agent, never had a problem. It could be that your paint or the wax you have used contained silicone in some form, if so that will be the cause of the failure, silicone and polyester and not good playmates!

Colin Bishop

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Re: disaster
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2013, 12:13:34 pm »

Two pack paint is also available from yacht chandlers as it is commonly used to paint full size boats:

http://www.boatpaint.co.uk/acatalog/Boatpaint_co_uk_Shop_International__Topside_Paints___Two_Pack___One_Pack_61.html

Colin
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Mark T

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Re: disaster
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2013, 03:01:12 pm »

Be extremely careful with 2 pack paint.  It is poisonous and literally sticks to everything including the inside of your lungs.  Just look at anything that the over spray has settled on and try and remove it - virtually impossible.  Its a really tough paint but I would not spray it without an air fed respirator and a decent pair of overalls.


If you do buy 2 pack paint make sure you get an air dry hardener as otherwise it will require baking to get it to go fully hard.


To be completely honest I would drop your plug into your local car body centre and ask them to spray it for you.  They could just put it in the booth and give it a few coats the next time a car goes in for paint.  It wouldn't matter what the colour is and I bet they would do it for a drink if it was fully prepared.  A much safer and probably cheaper option

martno1fan

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Re: disaster
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2014, 10:21:18 pm »

Dont use 2 k paint for plugs use this stuff its much better for the job  O0 and not as hazourdous to your health.
Mart
http://www.ecfibreglasssupplies.co.uk/p-867-durabuild-surface-primer-grey-inc-catalyst.aspx
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Subculture

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Re: disaster
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2014, 08:12:19 am »

Ditto what Martin and Mark  said. 2-pack paints have different chemistries, many (most) contain isocyanates, which are very toxic, and should only be sprayed in controlled conditions, with the operator wearing an air fed full face mask.

Just one or two exposures can be enough to sensitize you to these chemicals. The primer I linked to, and also the one Martin linked to are polyester based, still not nice stuff, but not as evil as some of the other stuff. I would recommend brushing it on then cutting back and polishing.
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martno1fan

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Re: disaster
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2014, 06:24:39 am »

Yes brush it on,i like to do 2-3 coats then wet sand it back ,it sands very easy,i go finer as i go untill it gets a nice finnish then i buff it up using a med to light compound and thats it its ready for waxing.Currently building a 58" Fountain plug using pu foam ,this primer will be going on next.Ill post a build thread when im further along showing the process.
Mart
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Subculture

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Re: making a plug - disaster
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2014, 11:09:09 am »

If you go to the easy composites website I linked to earlier, they have some really good videos on plug making using similar techniques. I also find the fibreglast tutorials on Youtube very helpful, and they're perfect for beginners.

Easy composites plug making.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeeSsmsm9h0

Fibreglast tutorial part one (eight parts)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCivvXA2FVU

Note that they're using a normal aerosol can primer on the plug. With epoxy resin the cure reaction is slower and more gentle than with polyester resin, so you are less likely to get issues with the resin bonding to the primer.
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martno1fan

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Re: making a plug - disaster
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2014, 11:51:33 am »

I still say stay away from any paint on a plug,especially normal paints as the heat generated by the resins when going off will cause lots of problems.Even though epoxy does take longer to go off and doesnt get as hot it can still lift the paint from a plug and ruin your mould,been there done that got the tshirt lol.
Use the durabuild range and you shouldnt have any issues,its better to be safe than sory.
Lots of videos on the link i gave too and as Subculture says check utube.
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Subculture

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Re: making a plug - disaster
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2014, 12:45:28 pm »

The problem is that for many builds, the modeller will want to add detail to a hull and check finish etc. Generally I find the only to do that reliably is to shoot some primer over it. Brushing a thick twin pack primer would obliterate details, and bearing in mind that spraying is a bit dodgy, really we're restricted to single part paints.
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martno1fan

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Re: making a plug - disaster
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2014, 01:17:26 pm »

If the detail is so fine then id leave it off and add the details later  O0 ,i dont make scale models i build race boats so i dont have any small details to worry about other than sharp strakes etc.That said this primer isnt that thick it actually goes on very smooth even with a brush but can also be sprayed on.
Mart
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